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Talk:Patton: Difference between revisions
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=Extra Info= | |||
== Patton's guns and the actual hero guns from ''Patton'' == | == Patton's guns and the actual hero guns from ''Patton'' == | ||
[[Image:Pattoncoltright.JPG|thumb|none|350px|Colt Single Action Army w/ 4.75" barrel, custom engravings, and ivory grips as carried by the real Gen. Patton - .45 Long Colt]] | |||
I've been to the Patton museum and seen these handguns. It's a great museum if you ever get the chance. | I've been to the Patton museum and seen these handguns. It's a great museum if you ever get the chance. | ||
All photographs courtesy of the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor, Fort Knox, KY.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC) | All photographs below courtesy of the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor, Fort Knox, KY.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
[[Image:Holster 02.jpg|thumb|350px|none| General Patton's sidearms and his actual leather gear]] | [[Image:Holster 02.jpg|thumb|350px|none| General Patton's sidearms and his actual leather gear]] | ||
[[Image:PattonPistol 02.jpg|thumb|none|350px| the top revolver is the prop from the movie. The bottom one is Patton's]] | [[Image:PattonPistol 02.jpg|thumb|none|350px| the top revolver is the prop from the movie. The bottom one is Patton's]] | ||
[[Image:PattonPistol 03.jpg|thumb|none|350px| the top is Patton's registered magnum and the bottom is the hero gun.]] | [[Image:PattonPistol 03.jpg|thumb|none|350px| the top is Patton's registered magnum and the bottom is the hero gun.]] | ||
:- Awesome stuff, Jcordell - Thanks for sharing! [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC) | :- Awesome stuff, Jcordell - Thanks for sharing! [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
| Line 15: | Line 17: | ||
Patton actually bought his Colt Single Action Army when he was serving under General John "Black Jack" Pershing and first used it in the pursuit of Pancho Villa. Patton killed three of Villa's men and brought them back to Pershing. Pershing dubbed Patton his "Little Bandito".[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 16:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC) | Patton actually bought his Colt Single Action Army when he was serving under General John "Black Jack" Pershing and first used it in the pursuit of Pancho Villa. Patton killed three of Villa's men and brought them back to Pershing. Pershing dubbed Patton his "Little Bandito".[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 16:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
== Additional photos of Patton's famous handguns == | |||
More photos of Patton's famous handguns as well as an image of the 1935 order form for the Registered Magnum. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 20:15, 5 March 2019 (EST) | |||
[[File:Patton1943NorthAfrica.jpg|none|400px|thumb|General Patton observing his troops in the Spring of 1943 in Tunisia. Notice the famous Colt SAA in holster. Photo was taken by Life photographer Eliot Elisofon (1911-1973).]] | |||
[[File:PattonDoc1003.jpg|thumb|none|400px|The actual order form for the Registered Magnum that Patton filled out in 1935. Photo found on the Smith & Wesson Forum. http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/523083-pattons-revolver.html]] | |||
[[File:PATTONGUN.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Close up of the Patton Registered Magnum. Originally the revolver had wooden grips. The ivory "Magna" grips were added in 1941 according to the Patton Museum. From the smith-Wesson forum: '''''Since the Wesson grip adaptor did not work with the magna stocks, when Patton had ivory magnas fitted to the gun, he had to have had them specially fitted to the flanges of the adaptor. Also had to have the screw located lower on the grips in order that his initials would be properly centered. The first S&W grip adapter had side plates that covered both sides of the grip frame. Using standard Magna grips with the grip adapter left a gap behind the horns of the grips. Magnas had to be thinned to be fitted over the adapter. ''''']] | |||
== Patton and a Colt Woodsman == | |||
Actually, it appears that Patton is carrying the target version of the [[Colt Woodsman]] known as the Match Target with the distinctive "elephant ears" stocks. This photo was taken in the Fall of 1941 or Winter of 1942 when Patton was the commander of the 1st Armored Division. My guess is this photo was taken when the division was training in the California desert. While some have found it odd that the famous general is carrying a pip-squeak 22 pistol it makes sense. It wasn't an actual combat setting and the 22 is a good pistol for plinking and taking small game and snakes which would have been plentiful in that area.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 14:26, 16 January 2022 (EST) | |||
[[File:PattonColtWoodsman.jpg|thumb|none|350px]] | |||
[[File:Matchtarget.jpg|thumb|none|401px|Colt Woodsman 1st Series Match Taget with "Elephant Ear" stocks - .22LR]] | |||
=Discussion= | |||
==Moved From Main Page== | ==Moved From Main Page== | ||
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: For the record I think we know the gun is a "Registered Magnum", but I think it was noted under 'Model 27' since all the RM is is an early variant of it, and the Model 27 made it easier to list and categorize (We do the same for M&P revolvers, which are merely early Model 10s). ''That said'', we do still note early M&P guns as M&P in the articles so perhaps we should note the gun as 'Registered Magnum' here, which is what I've done. However, I should note that is not appropriate to correct the entry solely because it fits the time-line on a film/media that takes place in the past, as movies often use newer (often anachronistic) guns to take their place as long as they're similar, there are many examples. In this case, the above picture of the movie gun looks like an actual RM so the commenters are correct in this case. Still, you can't assume they HAVE to use a certain gun because of the film's setting. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:01, 29 July 2011 (CDT) | : For the record I think we know the gun is a "Registered Magnum", but I think it was noted under 'Model 27' since all the RM is is an early variant of it, and the Model 27 made it easier to list and categorize (We do the same for M&P revolvers, which are merely early Model 10s). ''That said'', we do still note early M&P guns as M&P in the articles so perhaps we should note the gun as 'Registered Magnum' here, which is what I've done. However, I should note that is not appropriate to correct the entry solely because it fits the time-line on a film/media that takes place in the past, as movies often use newer (often anachronistic) guns to take their place as long as they're similar, there are many examples. In this case, the above picture of the movie gun looks like an actual RM so the commenters are correct in this case. Still, you can't assume they HAVE to use a certain gun because of the film's setting. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:01, 29 July 2011 (CDT) | ||
Very true. The guns are still at the museum by the way even though the armor school as moved to Fort Benning down in Georgia. Doesn't seem riht to move the armor school to the home of the infantry, but there it is. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 15:22, 4 September 2014 (EDT) | |||
== M14? == | == M14? == | ||
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[[File:Patton 1305.jpg|thumb|none|800px|The soldier on the far left.]] | [[File:Patton 1305.jpg|thumb|none|800px|The soldier on the far left.]] | ||
[[File:Patton 1306.jpg|thumb|none|800px|Another still.]] | [[File:Patton 1306.jpg|thumb|none|800px|Another still.]] | ||
:: As far as I can tell, the soldier on the hood is just carrying a Garand. The article currently says the soldier far-left is carrying a Beretta BM59, but I don't see that either. His rifle clearly has the side-mounted sling of an M1 Carbine, and lacks the characteristic tilted-forward magazine of both the M14 and BM59. From the pictures here, I honestly have my doubts about this scene. I'd have to watch the movie again to be sure, though. [[User:RedXIV|RedXIV]] 05:58, 31 May 2012 (CDT) | |||
::The magazine is clearly too long for an M1 carbine, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198|talk]]) 06:35, 9 February 2016 (EST) | |||
== Proper weapon placement == | == Proper weapon placement == | ||
| Line 40: | Line 61: | ||
== Plane == | == Plane == | ||
since when does a bomber plane do a strafe mission (i also think these are spanish planes taken from their airforce like battle of britian did) | since when does a bomber plane do a strafe mission (i also think these are spanish planes taken from their airforce like battle of britian did)[[user:ModWeaponChecker]] | ||
:Pretty much all of the non-CGI ME-109s and HE-111s in post war movies were Spanish Air Force planes. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 10:05, 4 April 2012 (CDT) | |||
== Patton pulls his S&W to clear some mules == | |||
The pic clearly shows the SAA being pulled. I've seen the movie many times since 1970, and I don't think the magnum is ever shown outside the holster? | |||
== Flamethrower scene reused by Ralp Bakshi == | |||
The scene of the German soldier using a flamethrower on an American halftrack was used as "stock footage" in Ralph Bakshi's film ''Wizards'', along with real wartime footage. Should we note this on the page? --[[User:Maxman|Maxman]] ([[User talk:Maxman|talk]]) 20:33, 12 May 2014 (EDT) | |||
:''Wizards'' borrowed a lot from many movies. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 00:44, 13 May 2014 (EDT) | |||
::So should we make a note of it? --[[User:Maxman|Maxman]] ([[User talk:Maxman|talk]]) 02:17, 23 May 2014 (EDT) | |||
== Tank trivia == | |||
The last photo of U.S.-marked tanks, identified as Walker Bulldogs, appear to be the same M48s, here painted green, that were used to simulate German Panzers. The M41 has five bogey wheels, while the M48 has six. | |||
== Star Model Z-45 instead of MP40 == | |||
I think the two MP40 in the below scene are actually Z-45 in one form or another. The charging handle is on the right side and the main lower body of the weapon looks wooden. | |||
The only thing that seems to match is the barrel which has the trademark bottom "hump". And the movie was partially shot in Spain...[[User:Dudster32|Dudester32]] ([[User talk:Dudster32|talk]]) 10:36, 28 May 2016 (EDT) | |||
[[File:Patton-mp40a.jpg|none|thumb|none|500px|Star Model Z-45 folding stock - 9x23mm]] | |||
[[Image:STAR Z45.jpg|none|thumb|none|500px|Star Model Z-45 folding stock - 9x23mm]] | |||
:Just a note: Z-45 with MP40 barrels are seen in several movies, like ''[[April_Captains_(Capitães_de_Abril)#Star_Z45|Capitães de Abril]]'' and ''[[Man_in_the_Trunk_(La_Valise)#Star_Z45|La Valise]]''. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 10:48, 28 May 2016 (EDT) | |||
::Glad it wasn't just me then! I'll fix it right away. [[User:Dudster32|Dudester32]] ([[User talk:Dudster32|talk]]) 10:57, 30 May 2016 (EDT) | |||
== K98K or other mauser model? == | |||
The article states the Germans use Karabiner 98k in the three screenshots. In two of those the bolts are straight, and in one the bayonet is of sword-length which the K98K did not have as far as I know. I'm not a Mauser expert so I dont know what variant to push here. Anyone got a better eye? [[User:Dudster32|Dudester32]] ([[User talk:Dudster32|talk]]) 11:17, 30 May 2016 (EDT) | |||
[[Image:Patton-k98a.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]] | |||
:Maybe a [[VZ-24 Czech Mauser]]? Standard bayonet for Vz.24 had 30cm blade but longer blades also existed, up to 40cm. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 12:28, 30 May 2016 (EDT) | |||
::The "Patton rifle" front side is not hooded unlike the Czech VZ-24. There might be some VZ-24 variants with a single front sight though. [[User:Dudster32|Dudester32]] ([[User talk:Dudster32|talk]]) 13:03, 30 May 2016 (EDT) | |||
::Maybe a Spanish Mauser? | |||
[[File:Mauser m43.jpg|thumb|none|600px|I cant see all the details, but the straight bolt is there. The finger "grove" cut into the side is there. I havent seen a Spanish M43 bayonet so I cant properly identify that one neither. Looks logical though since parts of the movie was shot in Spain.]] | |||
::: I have to concur about it being a Spanish M1943 Mauser variant. As said the film was shot in Spain and they did use their weapons and equipment as substitutes for German stuff. What features we can make out also seem to match as well - particularly the straight bolt and forearm style, as well as the extra bayonet lug to mount the older style bayonets (which I believe this is). All told, it seems a safe bet. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan|talk]]) 15:15, 30 May 2016 (EDT) | |||
== Random question == | |||
I've seen and read a lot about how Patton owned and carried several different guns during his military service, but how many would he actually carry at one time? He almost always had two revolvers on him, that's a given, but would he also carry his semi-autos or other revolvers at the same time? Five pistols at once is excessive but Patton is probably higher on my list of people I'd expect to do it. --[[User:Sergeant Simpleton|Sergeant Simpleton]] ([[User talk:Sergeant Simpleton|talk]]) 18:04, 20 February 2017 (EST) | |||
: I think he only ever had the two revolvers at any given time, so with the two autos that would be only four guns. That said, not sure about actuality but in the film he is seen tucking the Colt auto into his waist under his coat in addition to putting on his two revolvers. All told I think the autos were more what he carried in a practical sense (including even concealed carry), while the 'two guns' were more for showing off. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan|talk]]) 01:46, 21 February 2017 (EST) | |||
Latest revision as of 19:26, 16 January 2022
Extra Info
Patton's guns and the actual hero guns from Patton
I've been to the Patton museum and seen these handguns. It's a great museum if you ever get the chance. All photographs below courtesy of the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor, Fort Knox, KY.--Jcordell 00:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- - Awesome stuff, Jcordell - Thanks for sharing! StanTheMan 17:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Glad you liked it. A little more info. The Colt Single Action is serial number 332088. It was manufactured in 1916 and purchased by Patton that same year. I believe it was a special order by him.
The S&W .357 Registerd Magnum was purchased by Patton in 1935 when he was stationed in Hawaii. The .357 Registerd Magnum was strictly customer order only and would have been very expensive for 1935. So that revolver was made strictly for him and all the features (trigger adapter, patridge front sight,3.5" barrel)were what he ordered. The Registered Magnum model was introduced in 1935 which makes Patton's probably one of the first ones made. Patton was actually very well off and sometimes irritated his fellow officers with his luxurious lifestyle. Especially during the depression when money was so tight for many. To include the U.S. Army. --Jcordell 00:17, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Patton actually bought his Colt Single Action Army when he was serving under General John "Black Jack" Pershing and first used it in the pursuit of Pancho Villa. Patton killed three of Villa's men and brought them back to Pershing. Pershing dubbed Patton his "Little Bandito".GaBoy45 16:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Additional photos of Patton's famous handguns
More photos of Patton's famous handguns as well as an image of the 1935 order form for the Registered Magnum. --Jcordell (talk) 20:15, 5 March 2019 (EST)
Patton and a Colt Woodsman
Actually, it appears that Patton is carrying the target version of the Colt Woodsman known as the Match Target with the distinctive "elephant ears" stocks. This photo was taken in the Fall of 1941 or Winter of 1942 when Patton was the commander of the 1st Armored Division. My guess is this photo was taken when the division was training in the California desert. While some have found it odd that the famous general is carrying a pip-squeak 22 pistol it makes sense. It wasn't an actual combat setting and the 22 is a good pistol for plinking and taking small game and snakes which would have been plentiful in that area.--Jcordell (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2022 (EST)
Discussion
Moved From Main Page
Correction: this was not a 27, it was a Registered Magnum== The Model 27 did not exist until 1959. Prior to WW2 the pistol was named "The Registered Magnum".
The Smith & Wesson Patton carried wasn't yet called the Model 27. They were known as Registered Magnums, the first of the 357s and special order. I'm not sure about the one in the movie, but notice the hammer difference in the movie picture. Patton I believe called his Registered Magnum his "killing gun."
- For the record I think we know the gun is a "Registered Magnum", but I think it was noted under 'Model 27' since all the RM is is an early variant of it, and the Model 27 made it easier to list and categorize (We do the same for M&P revolvers, which are merely early Model 10s). That said, we do still note early M&P guns as M&P in the articles so perhaps we should note the gun as 'Registered Magnum' here, which is what I've done. However, I should note that is not appropriate to correct the entry solely because it fits the time-line on a film/media that takes place in the past, as movies often use newer (often anachronistic) guns to take their place as long as they're similar, there are many examples. In this case, the above picture of the movie gun looks like an actual RM so the commenters are correct in this case. Still, you can't assume they HAVE to use a certain gun because of the film's setting. StanTheMan 16:01, 29 July 2011 (CDT)
Very true. The guns are still at the museum by the way even though the armor school as moved to Fort Benning down in Georgia. Doesn't seem riht to move the armor school to the home of the infantry, but there it is. --Jcordell (talk) 15:22, 4 September 2014 (EDT)
M14?
According to IMDb, one of the soldiers in the congestion has an M14. Can anyone confirm this? I think the picture is on this page.
At 2:08:46 in the movie, during the congestion at a crossroads there is a close up of the chaos. A soldier with rolled up sleeves can be seen standing on the hood and fender of a Command Car number 378(?)554 holding what appears to be an M14 Rifle. This weapon is a modified M1 Garand, and is visibly similar to the M1 Carbine used in WWII except that it is bulkier, the sling is attached to the bottom of the butt with a swivel, and the magazine is larger than that of the M1 Carbine due to the longer ammunition it uses. The M14 came into use in the 1957, and not during WWII.
- Here's some stills. --Ben41 19:55, 20 March 2012 (CDT)
- As far as I can tell, the soldier on the hood is just carrying a Garand. The article currently says the soldier far-left is carrying a Beretta BM59, but I don't see that either. His rifle clearly has the side-mounted sling of an M1 Carbine, and lacks the characteristic tilted-forward magazine of both the M14 and BM59. From the pictures here, I honestly have my doubts about this scene. I'd have to watch the movie again to be sure, though. RedXIV 05:58, 31 May 2012 (CDT)
- The magazine is clearly too long for an M1 carbine, though. Spartan198 (talk) 06:35, 9 February 2016 (EST)
Proper weapon placement
Why is the MAS-36 under the submachine gun category when it is clearly a rifle? Please move.
Plane
since when does a bomber plane do a strafe mission (i also think these are spanish planes taken from their airforce like battle of britian did)user:ModWeaponChecker
- Pretty much all of the non-CGI ME-109s and HE-111s in post war movies were Spanish Air Force planes. --Funkychinaman 10:05, 4 April 2012 (CDT)
Patton pulls his S&W to clear some mules
The pic clearly shows the SAA being pulled. I've seen the movie many times since 1970, and I don't think the magnum is ever shown outside the holster?
Flamethrower scene reused by Ralp Bakshi
The scene of the German soldier using a flamethrower on an American halftrack was used as "stock footage" in Ralph Bakshi's film Wizards, along with real wartime footage. Should we note this on the page? --Maxman (talk) 20:33, 12 May 2014 (EDT)
- Wizards borrowed a lot from many movies. --Funkychinaman (talk) 00:44, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
Tank trivia
The last photo of U.S.-marked tanks, identified as Walker Bulldogs, appear to be the same M48s, here painted green, that were used to simulate German Panzers. The M41 has five bogey wheels, while the M48 has six.
Star Model Z-45 instead of MP40
I think the two MP40 in the below scene are actually Z-45 in one form or another. The charging handle is on the right side and the main lower body of the weapon looks wooden. The only thing that seems to match is the barrel which has the trademark bottom "hump". And the movie was partially shot in Spain...Dudester32 (talk) 10:36, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
- Just a note: Z-45 with MP40 barrels are seen in several movies, like Capitães de Abril and La Valise. Greg-Z (talk) 10:48, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
- Glad it wasn't just me then! I'll fix it right away. Dudester32 (talk) 10:57, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
K98K or other mauser model?
The article states the Germans use Karabiner 98k in the three screenshots. In two of those the bolts are straight, and in one the bayonet is of sword-length which the K98K did not have as far as I know. I'm not a Mauser expert so I dont know what variant to push here. Anyone got a better eye? Dudester32 (talk) 11:17, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
- Maybe a VZ-24 Czech Mauser? Standard bayonet for Vz.24 had 30cm blade but longer blades also existed, up to 40cm. Greg-Z (talk) 12:28, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
- The "Patton rifle" front side is not hooded unlike the Czech VZ-24. There might be some VZ-24 variants with a single front sight though. Dudester32 (talk) 13:03, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
- Maybe a Spanish Mauser?
- I have to concur about it being a Spanish M1943 Mauser variant. As said the film was shot in Spain and they did use their weapons and equipment as substitutes for German stuff. What features we can make out also seem to match as well - particularly the straight bolt and forearm style, as well as the extra bayonet lug to mount the older style bayonets (which I believe this is). All told, it seems a safe bet. StanTheMan (talk) 15:15, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
Random question
I've seen and read a lot about how Patton owned and carried several different guns during his military service, but how many would he actually carry at one time? He almost always had two revolvers on him, that's a given, but would he also carry his semi-autos or other revolvers at the same time? Five pistols at once is excessive but Patton is probably higher on my list of people I'd expect to do it. --Sergeant Simpleton (talk) 18:04, 20 February 2017 (EST)
- I think he only ever had the two revolvers at any given time, so with the two autos that would be only four guns. That said, not sure about actuality but in the film he is seen tucking the Colt auto into his waist under his coat in addition to putting on his two revolvers. All told I think the autos were more what he carried in a practical sense (including even concealed carry), while the 'two guns' were more for showing off. StanTheMan (talk) 01:46, 21 February 2017 (EST)