Given how many firearms this single page encompasses, redirects are needed for each of them. Something like VSS needs to redirect to this page, while entering "AS Val" or just "Val" needs to go to the correct section, and so on for Vikhr/SR-3(M) or Veresk/SR-2(M).
Needless to say, the redirects need to be case-insensitve, so any combination of capital letter and lower-case letters should direct one to the appropriate section of this page so as long as the spelling is right. Additionally, the SR-3 Vikhr and SR-2 Veresk sections need to be reformatted so that the pictures are level with the text and the former's pictures don't spill into the latter's section text.--Mazryonh 01:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Main Page
Why is VSS used to encompass these firearms? What is known is that they are all Special and were developed by Russian design bureau TSNIITOCHMASH. So I propose that the main page is called 'Russian Special Firearms/Weapons/X family/series <-choose one or two last words ' for proper categorisation.
Also, need an entry for SR-1 "Vektor" --Masterius 03:31, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
Naw, really the page should be AS Val (the VSS is a derivative model) and the Veresk shouldn't be here. Evil Tim 04:15, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
AS "Val" and VSS "Vintorez" were developed at the same time, so giving preference to one weapon would be unjust.
As for SR-2: "Unlike most submachine guns, SR-2 is gas operated, and its action is based on a scaled-down version of the SR-3 "Vikhr" compact assault rifle" - from Modern Firearms. --Masterius 05:01, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
Yeah, and the UMP is a scaled-down G36 action, and the MP5 is a scaled-down G3. There's good precident for weapons just loosely based on other weapons' actions to not go on the same page, much as it would be amusing to put the XM8 on the AR-18 page.
I think the Val would be the parent arm since it's the main issue weapon of the line, while the VSS is a specialised variant. Evil Tim 05:12, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
Should then there be separate pages for SR-1 and SR-2? Or they should have one page?
Neither AS "Val", nor VSS "Vintorez" are main issue. They were designed for Russian special forces units alongside and adopted as such. --Masterius 05:35, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
Well, the AS Val is an assault rifle, so it's going to be more widely issued than a sniper rifle unless Russia is trying to form a videogame army. I think the AR should take the page title. Evil Tim 05:52, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
VSS "Vintorez" has fully functioning automatic fire mode, and can feed 20-round magazine from AS "Val" with no problems. Using it as assault rifle, when there is AS "Val", while would be odd, is not improbable. Plus, AS is not necessary to be more widely issued than VSS because it has to compete with other 9x39mm assault rifles. 9x39mm sniper rifles, on the other hand, are only VSS and VSK-94 so far. --Masterius 07:11, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
If it worked as an assault rifle the AS Val wouldn't even exist. Jane's says using 20-rounders in the VSS is regarded as an emergency measure, not how you're supposed to use the weapon all the time. Evil Tim 07:24, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
That's because AS "Val" is supposed to be used as assault rifle. But if needed, 20-round magazine and full auto can be used in VSS "Vintorez". Jane's article doesn't say it is technical issue, as it is convenience issue. VSS has stock that in Russian Military is more suited for sniping roles, and AS has conventional folding stock. 10-round magazine is also more suited for firing in prone position, thus it is standard for VSS. AS "Val" can fit 10-round magazine just as well, but using it in assault rifle is not convenient (obviously). --Masterius 08:02, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
New image for AS Val
I needed a good image of an AS Val without scope but the one available (see below) was rather bad quality.
Trust this is okay, PeeWee055 (talk) 10:56, 3 December 2013 (EST)
Eh, I'd rather have a lame image than a fake one, personally. Evil Tim (talk) 11:10, 3 December 2013 (EST)
Okay, guess that is personal indeed. I personally think using Paint in a careful way to remove a scope is not anymore fake than making a photograph of a scoped rifle, removing the scope and making a second photograph of the same rifle but this time without it having the scope. Let's leave it on here so users can use it if they like. Thanks for the comment, PeeWee055 (talk) 11:35, 3 December 2013 (EST)
We'll leave it here, sure, I'm not going to delete it without someone else's opinion, but I don't think digital manipulation is a good way to get images, or allowing it a good precedent since we used to have problems with people building frankenpics and not labelling them. It's not the same as removing a real scope from a real gun, since you aren't guessing where the top of the gun is as you are when you digitally erase parts of a photograph. I'd rather not see that image on any actual pages until someone else has weighed in on the issue. I mean, if you want a high-quality image you can just use the picture with the scope, I'm sure most users can figure out which bit the scope is and what the rifle might look like without it. Evil Tim (talk) 11:40, 3 December 2013 (EST)
A lot of good images of Val can be found here and here, for example. There are photos with and without scope. Greg-Z (talk) 11:48, 3 December 2013 (EST)
I've reverted the without-scope photo to a less crappy older version, that one should do. Not sure why it was replaced to begin with.
Thanks for your comments guys, much appreciated. I checked GregZ's images, they're nice indeed but they all need to have the background removed so that does not bring us any further unfortunately. I understand the point of 'frankenpics', of which there's plenty especially when somebody digitally shortens the barrel of a shotgun to get the sawn-off version. In this case I will respectfully continue to use the image I created because it has a nice white background and shadow effect. Also, because the scope on the AS Val is fixed on the left side, it basically 'hangs' over the receiver and digitally removing it does in no way affect the profile from the right side. Thanks for your understanding and comments, I will think twice before doing such things again, PeeWee055 (talk) 12:05, 3 December 2013 (EST)
Thanks a lot for offering this alternative, this will work just fine. I was a bit irritated when what I regarded as a totally justified use of Paint became subject of discussion (sorry EvilTim!) but will use your file instead, PeeWee055 (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2013 (EST)
Photoshopped images are understandable and allowed in some cases such as peculiar or hard to find variants and custom weapons, however it looks kind of bad for the standard image of the gun on a page to be labelled as a photoshop. The only time that photoshopped images should really be used is if there is not a real image available. --commando552 (talk) 15:46, 3 December 2013 (EST)
Maybe one more good image will be enough for us now?
So, the SR-3 Vikhr specifically says in its description it can't mount a suppressor, and then we have a picture of one with a suppressor (called a silencer for some reason). What's the deal, guys? --That's the Way It's Done (talk) 22:14, 20 November 2017 (EST)
The SR-3 does not mount one for some reason, but the SR-3M does.--AgentGumby (talk) 22:38, 20 November 2017 (EST)
There's no real difference between an AS Val and a wire-stocked VSS. However, given that the game classifies their weapons as sniper rifles, I think it would be better to call them wire-stocked VSS. Though I would say that reference images for both AS Val and VSS should be placed. --Wuzh (talk) 00:53, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
