Talk:Black Hawk Down: Difference between revisions
Talk:Black Hawk Down: Difference between revisions - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games
Talk:Black Hawk Down: Difference between revisions
that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Yes that is the part I was referring to, although I remember there being more than just a grip added, but its been a while. Also Rangers aren't basic infantry, they too are a part of USASOC. and in a combat zone leeway with weapons (also uniforms, gear, etc) is pretty much at the command's discretion. I believe that they would allow Rangers a bit of leeway with modifying their weapons in certain ways to enhance their effectiveness in a given environment. Spc. Waddell's SAW grip would have been noticed by his command at some point, and either him or the Delta armorer would have had to get permission to modify it, being that it is US Gov property (not to mention the other customized weapons we see in Ranger's hands in photos).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 04:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I think the article should be amended to only mention the weapon seen on Hoot's person when he's confronted by Capt. Steele during chow time. The weapon he's holding in the screengrab of him being picked up by Wolcott and the Delta guys is the same M727 he uses in the rest of the film. --131.216.48.250 16:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the carbine Sanderson handed him had the knobs signifying a detachable carry handle. Spartan198 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Pretty damn sure. The front corner of that carry handle in the screencaps is too thin to be from an M4's carry handle. Definitely the mark of an A2 upper's carry handle as seen on M727s--24.253.69.199 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
This probably isn't very important, but...
I went through and corrected the abbreviated ranks. Most of them were in Marine Corps form as opposed to Army form (ex., SSgt vs SSG). Like I said, probably not worth mentioning, but it's a little detail that was bugging me. Spartan198 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Weapon used by delta force
M4 was issued in 1994 before the battle which took place in 1993 ...the weapon seen in the movie and used by Delta operators was CAR-15
If you'll look at the upper reciever and carry handle/rear-sight assembly, you'll see they match the M16A2-style of the early-model M4 carbine as shown in the picture above the screenshots. The CAR-15 (also known as the Colt Commando) used the recievers and carry handle/rear sight assembly of the M16A1. Orca1 9904 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, the stock is wrong for the CAR15...its an M4
:How is the stock "wrong"? And no M4 has the flash suppressor of the Car-15 Excalibur01
Isn't it more likely that Randy Shughart was actually carrying a Springfield M21 rather than the M14?
No, he was carrying a M14 during the actual battle and it is in his Medal of Honor citation. So its definitely a M14.
Do you happen to have a link to his MoH citation? The book accounted that Shughart used an M21. --Blemo 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
To Blemo - I've got the book in my lap. Page 208, and I quote, "They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip." Right there in black and white. --NMOne 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Your point about the issue date of the M4 flies in the face of the logic that "IT'S A MOVIE".-protoAuthor 01:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Your point about "It's a movie" is in the face of the logic that we shouldn't use our brains and common sense. It's like watching a 1920s movie and seeing someone riding into a scene with a 1970 Mustang. Would you use the "It's a movie" logic there? What about a WWII movie and you see an F-18 shooting sidewinders at a Japanese Zero? The point of this site is so that we do point of the little details. It's like in IMDB where it points out which movie a certain actor has been in and what his role is. The same here on this side except you replace "Actor" with "pick a gun". Accuracy is the whole point. Excalibur01
My point was, movies don't get things 100% correct.-protoAuthor 03:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
There's a scene in the movie (1:37:53) where Yurek, Nelson and Twombly are about to rejoin the other Rangers at the Black Hawk crash site. While Yurek is on the radio to Eversmann (Josh Hartnett's character) he grabs a mag out of a Type 47 that a dead Somali soldier is still holding. Since the Rangers are all carrying 5.56 NATO M4A2s and FN Minimis, what would be the point of grabbing a 7.62mm mag? Seems like an odd oversight considering the camera kinda focuses on him taking the mag, and they've worked quite hard to maintain accuracy and detail in the film. Any ideas? Am I missing something? DamageW 06:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
What the hell is a Type 47?Oliveira 15:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
i dont know, but they did that so the weapon was useless for someone to pick up and use. He probaly just ditched it later. -The Winchester
He's talking about an AK-47, but Type 47 definately isn't the right term. I always assumed he took it as a memento or something, because anyone can reload a weapon even if the magazine is removed. - Gunmaster45
Actually, he grabs the mag because he's carrying an M60, and he probably figured he may be able to use the ammo later. Also, many SF types are known to, in extreme need, use the local weapons, and he may also have been preparing for that eventuality. Asmkillr323 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Taking AK rounds for an M60? the M60 fires 7.62x51 rounds, while the AK fires 7.62x39, plus you'd need to have the rounds already on a belt to be fired by an M60. M14fanboy 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I think that what Yurek was trying to do was deny the enemy ammunition should they pick up the AK. The Bowden's book accounted that many Somalis that were killed would have others reuse the same weapon. They briefly showed that when Busch was making his last stand by the downed chopper. Also, he may have kept it as a souvenir. It's not everyday you'll find a loaded AK magazine that had the potential to kill you. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 16:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I was suggesting that he was picking up the mag out of fear that at some point, he would need to resort to using an Ak, or that he would have the ammo if someone else had already been forced to pick up a local weapon. --Asmkillr323 05:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Also, What the motherfuck is an M4A2?-Oliveira 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The motherfuck that is an M4A2 is basically an M4 produced by another company such as Bushmaster Firearms. It's just another "M4gery". Also, Google is everyone's friend and it wouldn't hurt to ask it. ;) --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 02:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to think he kept it as a souvenir, although the actual reason was whenever a member of militia was killed they were extremely dedicated to retrieving the body and the firearm, so removing the magazine would have made it useless, although picking up the the weapon and smashing it to pieces would probably have worked betterOwen642 14:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Smashing the weapon would have been noisy and they were trying to be quiet at that point IIRC.
fair point but i was thinking more like removing the driver spring, and its probably just that it would have made one less magazine for the somalians to use
I think the reason is that the enemy has 30 rounds less against the rangers. It's like in 'Saving Privat Ryan': the rescue team left Steamboat Willy alive; so he could kill Captain Miller. A wise decision of Yurek, I think
I noticed another mistake. During the scene where Gordon and Shughart are holding off the Somalis at the crash sight there's a quick moment when Shughart is seen using an M16A2 rifle instead of his M14 rifle. And in the very next scene and all following he's back to using the M14. Ballistics_Expert2
I believe it was because he was firing his M14 until it ran out of ammo, and then using a helo crew member's M16 before retreating to reload both rifles.:::
- Yes, that's the case. Gordon is also seen dropping his CAR-15 when it's empty and using his 1911. Later, when Shughart is killed, he fires the M14 'til it's empty, then switching to his 1911, and when that is empty, using an MP5 from the chopper. Hell, they're being overwhelmed, and it is quicker to pick up and and shoot another weapon that is ready than reload the present one. They were pretty much using whatever they could trying their damndest to fend an army off, I would think that was obvious. StanTheMan 17:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Mike Durant's Book
In Mike Durant's book "The Night Stalkers" he quoted a few weapons he was using in the real life in the "Mog". I remember him talking about his MP5 not to metion he called it a "german piece of crap" for jamming. He also said Randy's Commando was on burst-fire 3 shots 1 kill. And the mini guns the rescue team could have been using can not run on the Black Hawk's batteries only on pure engine generating turbine power.
To be fair, Mike Durant also seems to know very little about firearms. Also note that his memory may be jarred by the fact that, you know, he had just suffered a fucking HELICOPTER CRASH. --Asmkillr323 00:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, helicopter pilots have to be trained with certain firearms in order to survive in the event of a crash. Durant at least knew how to clear the jam on the 9mm submachine gun. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
160th SOAR aircrews, being a part of ASOC are trained not only in their specific role in the aircraft, but also on how to continue with the mission at hand along with their "customers." Hence, they're well-familiarized with fighting with the weapons carried on board with them (in the case of what was aboard Super-64, MP5s for the pilots, M16s for the crewchiefs and M9s carried by all of them).
What baffles me is how his MP5 kept jamming (in the book atleast). I know they were in the desert, but that MP5 had been stashed inside a helicopter, so it wouldn't be all dusty and full of sand. Maybe it is a German piece of crap then M14fanboy 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it was dusty inside of the chopper. Flying around in a helicopter with the rotor wash sending dust, smoke, and sand into and around the cabin won't help the MP5 from jamming, either. Pilots don't normally clean their emergency back-up weapons as they're supposed to. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 16:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Helicopter crews don't regularly use their weapons and so may not be as maintenance-minded as a Ranger or Delta. That could be one reason it kept jamming. Spartan198 15:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I did read Mike Durant's book and would like to point out he referred to Randy's weapon as a High-Tech rifle. as we all no, it was a vietnam era M14. Dirtdiver 6421 21:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
I just stared reading Durant's "In the Company of Heroes" before he called it a "German piece of crap", he said the MP5 had shot fine at the range but he probably had neglected to clean it. It was after Shughart gave him Gordon's CAR-15 which didn't jam and was far more effective despite only having half a mag left he thought of the MP5 as a piece of shit. He also had an M9 that he never drew, which he said probably saved his life since he wasn't seen as a threat. While Shughart's M14 isn't really a "High-Tech rifle" it was a lot better than a bolt-gun in the situation he was in. --Predator20 18:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The Hand
Does anyone know why that Ranger took the dead Delta Force member's hand?-Oliveira 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Probably to send it home with the rest of the body-76.31.5.208 16:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)
I figured that too. But it's kind of creepy going around carrying an dead man's severed hand in your pocket. What about the smell? However, if i died in combat, i would like if my body went home and i had an funeral.-Oliveira 16:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
In the book, Othic took the hand that he had found and put it in his pocket to return it to the Delta operator that was blown in half. He had placed it with his body after he died, but strangely the movie did not show that, and made it seem like Othic kept the hand. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 02:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't the Delta Operator's hand. The shots of MSGTTim "Griz" Martin after being hit by the RPG show his hand still intact. More likely it belonged to one of the other soldiers aboard the truck that got hit. MSGT Martin was shipped off to Germany IIRC where he succumbed to his wounds shortly after.
I bet it started to smell after a while-S&Wshooter 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
What is the technical term for the flashlight to be attached to the barrel of the AR-15 series? It seems to be used only when there are handguards in place of the RIS railing. Sergeants Hoot, Busch, Sanderson, Gordon, and a couple other Deltas used the same attachment. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 01:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Before R.I.S. was introduced, I used to see a whole bunch of different flashlight attachments just like that one in the Blue Press. Some of them were even advertised as able to work on multiple types of weapons in the same caliber (i.e. AR-15s and Mini-14s). There were many different brands, so we can't be 100% sure what this movie's armorers used. -MT2008
Oh, thanks, but I didn't mean what brands the movie used. I meant, what the generic term for these types of attachments that connect the flashlight to the barrel are called. I'm thinking about purchasing one for an AR-15 platform without the RIS. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 03:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
It's a barrel mount for a flashlight, that specific one was made by Surefire.
Like the above said, It's a barrel mounted flashlight, made by Surefire. I actually managed to buy one of them that had been used in the Operation Gothic Serpent theater. These are still a good alternative to adding the weight of a rail to your firearm. I believe the flashlight is a model 600 or something similar.--Asmkillr323 05:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
M4 in 1994?
Question about the M4 not being period correct. If the events took place in September 1993 and the M4 went into service sometime in 1994, isn't possible that members of an elite group like Delta Force could have gotten their hands on a couple?
I'd say it's plausible that Delta could have been field-testing a few XM4s that day. Spartan198
In today's case, some special units are using the HK416 in the field. It likely that this was also the case with the M4 in 1993. That, or the armorers to the film got lazy and decided to throw in a few M4's for the M4 fans. Unlikely, but movies will do this. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 15:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Well it isn't completely out there that at the time US special forces can get their hands on some experimental weapons and field test them. But I think for this movie, they just ran out of Car-15s to give to the Delta actors.Excalibur01 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)he
The m4 was used in service since 1997 it is not possible for an m4 to be used.the delta operators may have used a xm117e2.
Just because it didn't go into service until 94 or 97 doesn't mean D-boys didn't have a hold of them. There could well have been a prototype (or many test models) sent out with D-boys to see if the rifle performed to what was expected.
More than likely just an error. The simplest explanation is usually correct (Occam's Razor) BA
More likely than not the M4 in the film is simply an anachronism due to a shortage of Colt Commandos. --AdAstra2009 02:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Don't forget about the 10th Mountain and the U.N Soldiers. Whoever created this page missed them completly and they had alot of firearms. Whats omore is i can't for some reason edit the page. the autheor needs to fix this right away
I have explained elsewhere that the Colt Model 727 carbine, which LOOKS just like an early M4 (but has a semi/full-auto trigger group, rather than semi/burst as on the Model 777, AKA the earliest M4) was introduced in the late-1980s. -MT2008 05:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
The 727 has a fixed carry handle, though. Spartan198 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
So did the Model 777, which is the first gun that was ever adopted by the U.S. military as the "M4". The 727 and 777 are the same gun aside from their trigger groups. -MT2008 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain this convo is referring to the later M4 with detachable carry handle. That's why I mentioned the 727 having an A2 upper. ;) Spartan198 23:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...
Shughart and the M14/M16 switch
Does anyone know if Shughart briefly using an M16A2 while defending Durant's crash site is intentional or a mistake? Spartan198
intentional, in the book moments beforehand hed asked durant where the spare weapons were kept aboard the black hawk, and for some reason this scene was omitted from the film. Shughart had ran dry with his 7.62 M14 and so couldnt have used the 5.56 from the M16 mags. :)
Yeah, Shughart asked if there were any spare rifles or radios after Gordon got shot. This caused Durant to realize that Gordon may have been hit and that they were stranded on their own. However, the book didn't mention Shughart actually using the M16. --BlemoFile:Progress Wheel.gifTALK • CONTRIBUTIONS • EMAIL • MESSAGE 15:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, good point, but i dont get why brad hallings didnt join them? he could have done so much more on the ground than on the black hawk, especially since he had his leg blown off up there aswell. oh and btw, im a newcomer, how do i tag comments with my name at the end?
By putting four ~ at the end of every message.-Oliveira 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I believe the reason why Halling didn’t insert with the Shughart and Gordon was because by the time the team was given the go-ahead to insert, Halling had taken control of the minigun due to a member of the helicopter crew being injured.--Mauser 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
i dont know if he was actually using it, but in the movie version i think were supposed to think he took from a crew chief (since they carried an m16a2
the guy must have to taken the m16 from one of the blackhawk passengers and the blackhawks do carry spare weapons on board. (actual assassin)
Im sure most people so dedicated to this site probably noticed this but ill say it anyway. (**SPOILER**) ok right as MSsgt. Gordon is shot in the head and Shughart checks him it flashes over to Durant, and sure enough if you look you'll notice Gordon's CAR-15 on his lap. moments later Shughart runs over to Durant hands him the CAR-15 and says "Gordy's gone man, i'll be outside...Goodluck." just pointing it out. Dirtdiver 6421 23:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Change made to 1911 article/picture
Not sure where IMDB gets its info from, but Kim Coates plays Master Sergeant Tim 'Griz' Martin, the unfortunate Delta operator who was blown in half by the RPG when the convoy is attempting to extract. He is not the Delta operator seen using the 1911 at the firing range and the picture and article have been edited for correction.
All the Delta Force members' names were changed for the film except for Busch, Shughart and Gordon. "Wex" is the name credited to Kim Coates in the end credits. --Ben41 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Anybody else notice that when Wex is firing his 1911, he's walking down the range towards the targets while people behind him are still firing? seems kind of unsafe.--Pølaris 19:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
-- In a deleted scene, it is shown that Eversman calls cease fire on the range in response to him moving into the line of fire, and just responding to such percieved recklessness by simply muttering "Fuckin' Delta..."--24.253.69.199 22:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
on topic of 1911s does anyone know what kind of 1911s they really used? for example i find it hard to believe they would be using normal 1911s when the MK.IVs were out
-- They were regular M1911A1s as it is cheaper for the armorers to use GI style pistols instead of procuring brand new weapons or paying a pistolsmith for costly modifications on movie props that could later be used in other films. In reality, Delta operators would take their issued 1911s (which were often relics found in the supply system) and have them done by some of the best pistolsmiths they could find to do the work (or do the work in-house when at all possible). Some of that talent rubbed off on the operators themselves; Larry Vickers, a former Delta Operator himself, is one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the business and is one of the go-to guys for Delta's custom 1911s.
Dillon/GE Miniguns
The Miniguns during the actual event would have been GE M134s. The Miniguns in the movie were Dillon Aero Miniguns, but not quite M134Ds. They had some of the DA upgrades on them though. That's from the commentary and some interviews online with Dillon Aero. I remember it being mentioned in one of the special features that the Dillon guns in the movie could have been fired off the Black Hawk's batteries, but the older GE ones in the real incident would have been unuseable at the crash site.
870 Remington Shotgun.
Not sure if this is worth noting, but in real life, the operator on who SGT. Sanderson was based, Paul Howe, had his shotgun rigged under his CAR-15 in a "Masterkey" configuration. Also, it can be seen being used in the directors cut to breach a door.
Rescue Heli Star 41
The AH-6, that inbounds to Wolcott's crash site (Star 41), has miniguns and rocket pods. The helicopter that is finally landing at the chrashed Black Hawk hasn't any weapons onboard, so probably a MH-6.
Continuity error most likely. Spartan198 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Flashlights
I watched the movie, and I was wondering, if Delta force had flashlights on their M733 and M727's, why didnt they use them? I could see that they would want to keep stealth in night, but if they're firing at the enemy, the muzzle flash would show their position anyway.
Actors probably forgot or were never told Excalibur01
Flashlights are not going to give you enough illumination to shoot at targets across buildings. They're better for room clearing. Besides you wouldn't use them if you have NOD's. --Ben41 02:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)v
Not to mention a flashlight beam in that environment would scream, "here I am, shoot me!" Spartan198 05:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
does anyone no how they would have mounted the tac-lights back then? like now-a-days we have RIS/Picatanny rails. then they would mod it to the barrel. how would they do that if they have a shotgun under the barrel? Larry Vickers mentioned that he hose clamped his to the bottom of the barrel. but he didnt have a masterkey. any suggestions? Dirtdiver6421 15:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Hose clamped it to the side or top of the barrel? -Ranger01 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Larry had his hose-clamped to the bottom. he used his in Panama (acid Gambit) i was surprised at how resoursefull they were. he also took some cardboard and put them inbetween Mags for a quick reload. and the aimpoint on his gun looked ancient. 71.194.219.9 22:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Possible Error?
Anyone notice that the picture of Sanderson firing his M727 during the Mogadishu Mile? It looks like the chamber is clear and the bolt is open. That means the weapon is empty, but in the movie you still hear two more shots before he switches to his sidearm. Is it just the angle, or is it just an error in continuity?--MarineCorps1 23:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
That wouldn't be a continuity error, a continuity error would be when one seen a guy has a 1911 and the next he suddenly has a Beretta M9. I can't say for I don't remember this. --FIVETWOSEVEN 16:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Actor in the Specials
Do we see this actor in Delta costume in the movie often? Because all the behind the scenes shot is this guy and I don't recognize him. Is he an extra that is like way in the back of the other guys? Excalibur01 05:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Seriously? A well trained operator wouldnt wear his gloves like that? This mall-ninja crap needs to stop. Theres no special way to wear flight gloves, you put the goddamn things on and wear 'em. -Winn
Actually, special forces operators of that era often wore flight gloves, just like that. Fun fact. Flight gloves are made for use by individuals who fly planes; they need a glove that will keep their hands a bit warmer than they normally will be, but will still allow them to feel the tactile sensation of the various knobs and switches and provide the nimbleness that the human hand gives us. The solution? Flight gloves. They are the precursors to the gloves we see in use by military units now; the Oakley tacticool gloves (fun fact: Oakley started out making motorcycle gloves) or the Blackhawk gloves and what have you. I'm really loving these mall-ninjas popping up thinking they know about shooting or special forces work. I can think of a few damn good reasons off the top of my hand to never, ever take gloves off in a combat situation, personally, and a well-fitted pair of gloves will be just like a second skin.--Asmkillr323 01:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- I believe the comment means it isn't likely he'd wear them while shooting - Full-finger gloves can be obstructive/restrictive when it comes to finger movement, which isn't exactly a good thing when you need to make accurate shots. StanTheMan 01:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Flight gloves, as I just fucking explained, are not restrictive or obstructive in the slightest.--Asmkillr323 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Uh, I had replied below I didn't know about these gloves specifically, which you seem to have failed to notice. Just as you also seem to have failed to notice that all these comments you posted this slightly irritable and unnecessary response in-between were all posted days ago. It might help if you thoroughly read the comments and check the dates next time.StanTheMan 15:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Honestly how would anyone here really know....are any of you "operators"?? -and if you say yes I'm going to say that your lying.....I'm going to delete that quip about his gloves in the caption, it's not hard to shoot with gloves on, especially flyers gloves. --AdAstra2009 03:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, it just bugs the living shit outta me when armchair commandos think they know operator/tactical/omfgdelta stuff. -Winn
- Well, I'm indeed no 'operator', but I don't have to be one to know that it is hard to shoot with some gloves, especially if you're making distance shots. But I'm not familiar with flight gloves specifically, so I guess they're no trouble, I don't know. In any case, it just seemed to me the context of Winn's comment was that he was saying that it was stating merely that the gloves need to be worn some special way (and Winns right - they're gloves, what special way is there), but that's the problem with text sometimes. Anyway, not trying to make a valid claim, just an opinion. I can't speak for whoever made original remark, though. Either way, I never gave that comment much thought myself. I'm personally more peeved about quips on peoples (actors) stances myself. StanTheMan 17:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Flight gloves are a very thin layer of Nomex with a Clarino palm and finger overlaid. These are very light, wick sweat, and give you tactile feeling and the ability to perform tasks as though you were bare handed. They are maybe a few mm thick on the palms, and do not affect in any way your shooting ability or accuracy, even whilst firing an M249, which is notorious for running away due to gloves getting stuck and holding the trigger back.
Discussion about the bullets, or something
- Something I always found a bit funny about that particular scene - Sanderson misses the two targets with his 727 carbine (firing several shots), yet hits them both with one .45 shot each (or actually, maybe one was hit twice, and the other once). Heh. But of course, I'd imagine some people can actually be better with a handgun than a rifle in some instances. StanTheMan
I haven't seen the movie in a few months, but if I remember correctly he had actually hit the targets with his rifle, but the rounds went completely through and didn't kill the targets. So he used his .45 to actually kill them. There is a part in the book where it is mentioned that they had been issued "green tip" rounds (armor piercing/ anti personnel 5.56 ammo with a steel penetrator tip), and another part that talked about the rounds lack of effectiveness against the drugged up Somalis. One guy unloaded a belt from his SAW into a couple Somalis and they kept coming at them b/c the rounds just went right through and didn't do any major (fight stopping) damage. Another reason why they talk about how Randy Shughart was a smart SOB for using a 7.62 M14 and normal ammo. As for the gloves... Flight gloves have been used for years by ground personnel because they are thin enough to still be able to feel things with your hands, but they are still something to protect against scrapes, burns, dirt, etc.. -Ranger01 22:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
No argument here Ranger. but i would also like to point out in the book Mark also mentions that they(the rangers) fired SAW and believe it or not M-60 ammunition, that would happen to be the same M-60 that carries the heavy hitting 7.62mm however that guy was probably high as a kite anyways so idont think it would have made much of a difference. Dirtdiver 6421 23:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's all fascinating, except in the movie, Sanderson (Fichtner) just missed them. I was remarking on how the movie showed him missing two almost perfectly still targets with the 727 carbine and hitting them with the .45. That's all. Interesting tidbit about the ammo though. StanTheMan
Well, the point about RS and his M14 was what the book said. It was not so much the size of the bullet, but whether or not it was AP ammo (super hard bullet at very high velocity). An AP round from a 5.56 to the heart will create a very small hole, and if the person who is shot is high on drugs then they are probably not even going to notice it until they finally keel over (which will probably take a while). At the same time a FMJ from a .45 while it still probably wont blow the heart to kingdom come, will make a large enough hole that it will cause bleed out to happen faster (hopefully fast enough). Then again at close range any 5.56 and even 7.62 ammo isnt going to be as effective as a .45 round b/c of the rifle round's high velocities compared to the .45s low velocity. When faced with an unarmored threat below about 50 yards, a pistol round (be it .45, 9mm, .40, etc) is going to be much more effective (unless it is something like the 5.7 round, which has no immediate stopping power unless a CNS or head shot is attained). Long post short: will a 5.56 or 7.62 to the heart kill someone at close range? Most likely yes. Will it do it quick enough to stop an attacker from killing/ wounding you or your allies? Maybe. If he missed them, then it was probably just to add suspense or a "weapon switch to show he is an elite operator" shot to the scene.-Ranger01 00:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
um this is extremely off topic like usual but id just like for someone to explain the purpose of using a 5.56 by a Counter-Terrorist Unit. tell me if im missing something but when their clearing rooms A.) the round wont immediatly kill a combatant when you wont him to die. and 2. say its an assault on multiple rooms at once and boom you miss your target (or it just passes through him) and boom goes through the wall like the round is meant to and bam! clips a friendly or even worse a hostage. explain the logic to me please. Dirtdiver 6421 00:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, logistics. If they are expecting to be 100% in a building they will use SMGs, Shotguns, etc. But if they have an expectation that being in a building is only going to be 10-25% of the mission they will usually carry rifles. The main problem with the mission portrayed in BHD is that the brass expected to have to combat (lightly) armored vehicles, so they issued AP rounds. Now days the AP rounds are for some odd reason pretty much 90% of what the US Army issues. Army Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta, etc. use a type of semi-expanding bullet, as does the Marine Corps.-Ranger01 01:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
There are other reasons as well. It's a fairly accurate rifle round, which, when in situations that will require shooting further than 50-100 meters, is necessary to have. It's a relatively light round, and most people can easily carry a few mags of 5.56 without feeling it too much. As far as stopping power goes, in barrels that don't over-stabilize the round, the 5.56 will fragment (not the AP round, obviously), slowing itself in the body and thus penetration becomes less of an issue. When you consider that most SF types use expanding bullets, this nearly negates the issue. There's a reason that most countries use the 5.56 round or something similar.
As far as the issuance of AP rounds in a war that clearly didn't need them, I've heard two sides of the argument. I've heard that, as Ranger01 said, they were issued because they thought they may run into light vehicles (although they brought along plenty of LAWs to deal with that). But what I heard from an individual who was there was that the men believed it was because Clinton believed that rounds that expanded would A) not make good headlines and B) violate some convention (I believe the Geneva convention).--Asmkillr323 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I think the Geneva convention forbids hollow point ammo in the military. The Police of the nation is a different subject. Excalibur01 02:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
You're thinking of the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention.--PistolJunkie 03:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was the GC or HC and didn't really care to look it up at the moment.--Asmkillr323 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, the Hague banned all use of ammunition that easily expands or flattens in a human target. I have no exact idea of what round is being used or how it gets around the HC, I only know that when asked about the effectiveness of 5.56 ammunition, a few SF guys made mention that have been issued a new "expanding" round. I have also heard that Marines are now being issued an expanding type round. It may be that since we are not actually fighting an official "military force" that the HC and GC do not apply. Also you must remember that the use of .50 cal against personnel is banned too, how often do you think that is observed?-Ranger01 11:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm not saying we follow either conventions to a T in every war, I'm just echoing what I heard from a man who was there. A lot of people who lived through the battle of mogadishu came away with the feeling that Bill Clinton cared more about how headlines would look than he did about the safety of our soldiers. As for HC and GC not applying, I agree that they really don't apply to A) organizations that are not militaries but instead ragtag terrorist groups and B) hail from nations that didn't exist at the time of the convention and never signed a similar document. It's the same argument that was applied for the waterboarding of captured terrorists; apparently, they apply some standards to those who didn't sign, but not others. Personally, I think that terrorist groups and undeveloped countries where they never signed the conventions shouldn't get the protection of them, and we really need to invest into expanding ammunitions for everyone; AP doesn't make sense for unarmored targets.--Asmkillr323 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
The question about observing the laws was rhetorical in nature. But I agree wholeheartedly about what you say pertaining to the HC and GC applying to people who did not sign it. Its like bringing pirates and terrorists into the US to give them civilian trials. People say they should get military trials... When according to the GC (that people are so happy to apply to the situation) pirates and terrorists are not able to receive either. We selectively apply laws to make us look good internationally, when in reality it costs money, and even worse lives of US citizens and military forces.-Ranger01 12:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Under normal circumstances full metal jacket .556 is an ideal round. When fighting a traditional battle, against an enemy that follows the rules of war, it is far better to wound the enemy than kill him. Gunner313
We haven't fought a conventional war that lasted any period of time since Korea (and you could even say WWII, since Korea was less than conventional). Also with the way the enemy works now, any intel we can gather from enemy combatants will likely be useless (if it ever was useful) by the time it gets to the guys on the ground. Also as stated by me, and others before, under 50 yards and especially against an enemy that is drugged up a FMJ is likely not going to down an enemy either by wounding him or killing him. Of course shot placement comes into play heavily, but as cases have proven a COM shot is likely not to drop a determined attacker immediately. Head and extremity shots are also very hard to make, with FMJ pretty much the only way to immediately and most important reliably drop an attacker at close range is a pelvic shot. But now days in Afghanistan most fighting is taking place on the far end if not beyond the 5.56's effective range. Also Gunner313 it is 5.56, not .556, .556mm is a really damn small projectile haha. -Ranger01 14:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
One could say that the First Gulf War was conventional. we were fighting an organized military(Iraq), i still think they were a bunch of crazy towel heads hellbent on destroying the western world.User:SargeOverkill
Why is it better to wound them? -SasquatchJim.
Because then you can detain them get information from them.-Ranger01 19:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. I apologize; I thought he meant that wounding them was more humane, or something. Although, dead people can't keep shooting at you; wounded ones can. -SasquatchJim
It is better to wound them because it requires the enemy to care for their wounded, they have to be treated, they have to be transported, it is demoralizing to the others to hear someone in terrible pain, so for a short time a wounding shot, takes two people out of the fight. Also the more medical supplies that have to be shipped to the front for the wounded, means less of other items such as ammo, food, fuel, misc... Gunner313
Makes sense to me. Thanks. -SJ
Well in my opinion, I still think it's better to kill the enemy rather than just wound them, that way they don't get patched up and come back later to kill you.
agreed. especially in Somalia when if their not dead their gunna come back and shoot you in the back. 24.15.103.231 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Bah, can't believe my one off-hand comment spawned all this. Heh. StanTheMan 22:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Nothing to add other than that this was really informative. This site is one of the best blind discoveries I've made on the internet. --John Ryder 01:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Never Forget
Sorry to post as anon, but I dont have an account but frequent the site. Just wanted to point out that today is the 17th anniversary of the US intervention in Somalia.
- Actually the anniversary is for the mission and subsequent battle portrayed in the film. The 'intervention' began as Operation Provide Relief, which started in December 1992. Still, good to point it out. EDIT - I actually just realized that not only is it the anniversary, but the actual day is correct (That is, Oct. 3 was a Sunday, same day as the Oct. 3 in the battle). Again, pretty cool I guess. StanTheMan 03:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
The entire day yesterday i thought about it. i decided to watch the movie being Sunday Oct-3. i also found it fit to say a pray for the brave soldiers who lost their lives fighting to help the ungratefull bastards. 24.15.103.231 22:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Interesting Uniform Note
Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the 1990's and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new DCU's with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.
are you referring to the AK-74u? Dirtdiver6421 23:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I think he is referring to the pistol in his shoulder holster under his left arm. Can't make it out though, will have to have a look on my Bluray version when I get a minute, but don't think it can be seen well enough to make it out. --Commando552 10:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
i wasn't aware he had a shoulder holster? can you upload a photo?Dirtdiver6421 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
In the movie PFC Kurt "Doc" Schmid is shown as a Ranger medic but in reality he was Delta Force. It's curious why they chose to depict him as a Ranger and not a Delta operator in the movie.
Maybe they forgot Excalibur01 20:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
This is somewhat unrelated, but I found it really funny that Schmid is played by the same actor who later played Adam. -MT2008 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
tapeing
i was just watching this , and i noticed that a majority of the rangers taped the ends of the butt stocks on their rifles . Why is that?-Simmons 8492
I believe that tape was used (not quite sure how) to attach the sling to the butt of the rifle. Tape is also used at the front of the rifle, to attach a loop of para cord around the front sight to the sling. The reason this was done was so that the sling would be attached on the top/side of the weapon, rather than the bottom (where the only fitted sling loops are) to make it more usable in combat. --commando552 12:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
i noticed nearly all the mag's have brown tape on them, any reasons for this, or is it just purely cosmetic? scarecrow 11:32, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Nelson's M60
Is is correct to have Nelson carrying the Vietnam Era M60 over the M60E3 or E4? I'm not sure when the E3 or E4 came out.--MarineCorps1 03:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
The M60 used in the film is an original spec M60, the same as were actually used by the Rangers in Somalia (As identified by the hand guard and bi-pod attaching at the end of the barrel). Not sure exactly when the E3 was made (started being issues in 1986), but I know there was one in the 1985 film Commando. Regardless, I don't think it was that widely used, as the lighter weight barrel and other parts made the gun more prone to overheating and malfunction. The rangers actually used a mix of M60s and FN MAGs as shown below:
Also, there has been talk on this page about what the actual weapons used by Delta where, and I cannot speak to this operation in particular, but in most of the photos I have seen of Delta force in Somalia, there are actually armed with M16A2s, normally with a telescopic sight mounted onto the carry handle (example below). --commando552 12:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
Delta operators in Somalia used Colt Model 723 carbines with M4 style barrel, at least watching the few pictures of that time. --X-Ray Bravo 6 13:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
Did the Rangers at the time use a black ballistic vest in addition to the woodland RBAs? While searching for M60 photos saw several photos of people in black vests carrying M16A2s with an optic on the handle, also sometimes carrying shotguns and LAWs. Are these likely Rangers rather than Delta then? Also, there are pictures of rangers using colt carbines with the step down M4 type barrels, so I think there was a much wider variety of weapons used than the film shows. --commando552 14:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
The Rangers only wore Woodland camo RBA (Ranger Body Armor) vests and desert-camo PASGT helmets during the operation (see the "Interesting Uniform Note" section above for info about the desert camo patterns used in the film). Black vests were Delta-issue only. Sort of like present-day spec. ops units using Dragon Skin vests while the main Army uses Interceptor/IOTV vests (though it's not as easy to tell the difference between the modern-day examples by looking at them. Orca1 9904 17:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
In the book there was specific mention of a couple of the Rangers being stuck with the Delta "Turtle" Armor because they didn't have enough of the Ranger vests for a while.-Ranger01 09:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, that explains photos like the following one then (also, note the Colt carbines with M4 type barrels the Rangers are carrying.)
First off, isn't this an E2, rather than the E1 as the main article says was used by the Rangers? Also, why does it look like the receiver is made of different metal, and is the sight mount a standard fitting, or something cobbled together? --commando552 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Another thing the book mentions is that Delta's Armorer played gunsmith for some of the Ranger guys (at least 1 customized SAW is mentioned).-Ranger01 20:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. Dirtdiver6421 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Yes that is the part I was referring to, although I remember there being more than just a grip added, but its been a while. Also Rangers aren't basic infantry, they too are a part of USASOC. and in a combat zone leeway with weapons (also uniforms, gear, etc) is pretty much at the command's discretion. I believe that they would allow Rangers a bit of leeway with modifying their weapons in certain ways to enhance their effectiveness in a given environment. Spc. Waddell's SAW grip would have been noticed by his command at some point, and either him or the Delta armorer would have had to get permission to modify it, being that it is US Gov property (not to mention the other customized weapons we see in Ranger's hands in photos).-Ranger01 04:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
