Talk:Main Page: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 18:20, 15 August 2012

See Talk:Main_Page/Archive_1 for older discussions

Thunderheart

Another movie that is not on this wiki (suprisingly) is the 1992 film "Thunderheart" starring Val Kilmer, the lack of coverage of it is suprising due to the fact it features a prominent actor and a good amount of firearms (2.5" Smith & Wesson Model 19's used by FBI Agents, what appears a Smith & Wesson Model 36 drawn by Kilmer during an attack, as well as M16 or M16A1's that are seen with the old 'Starlight' scopes) in the film. User: Czar

Team America: World Police

I was surprised to see that this 2004 marionet comedy movie does not appear on IMFDB. Would it be against any IMFDB 'rules' if I created such a page? I watched the movie again over the weekend and I was actually pleasantly surprised. Most guns used by the marionets were indeed somewhat fictional but the creators really seem to have been inspired by real-life guns and I'd love to get started on an IMFDB page for this movie. If nobody objects I will get to work on this. Thanks in advance for your feedback, --PeeWee055 15:02, 13 November 2011 (CST)

I wouldn't think so; due to the scale of the props, I'm not sure that the weapons would actually be based on actual weapons, just "moulds" of them. I've seen the movie, and I think that they are very generic, so I think that making this page would go against the IMFDb rule of actually identifying weapons. --Jackbel 15:09, 13 November 2011 (CST)

The weapons are pretty faithful to real guns. There is at least a Minimi, M134, M4 with 40mm grenade launcher, MP5K (with the stainless steel Navy suppressor), MP5A3, SKS RPG-7 and a few different varieties of AK-47 (identifiable, such as Norinco Type 56 with pig-sticker bayonet and Romanian AIMS). These are just off the top of my head and from a couple of clips on youtube. Even though the guns obviously aren't real I think it deserves a page, as they are all faithful representation of real guns. --commando552 15:55, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Thanks for your quick comments, I understand the initial hesitation. However, just check below screenprints and you will see that indeed the makers did their homework, maybe they even checked IMFDB! Commando552's memory serves him right!

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I agree that the movie contains a lot of nonsense but I am actually tempted to go ahead, --PeeWee055 16:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

And It will be deleted just like last time as the "Weapons" are just whatever generic 1/6th scale guns the directors could find. they are obviously not real. The page has been deleted before and will most likely be removed again. Rockwolf66 16:17, 13 November 2011 (CST)

The guns in anime and video games aren't real either. The guns aren't generic from what I can see, can identify them all (more so than some of the guns on pages like Crysis 2). If mods so no then fair enough, but I think it should have a page. --commando552 16:57, 13 November 2011 (CST)

I'm with Commando552 on this one, if it's not eligible because the guns aren't real then all video games and anime should be removed because those guns aren't real they're drawings or digital constructs. --cool-breeze 18:38, 13 November 2011 (CST)

New or original gun names?

When a gun was originally sold under one name but has since changed, which name should be used? A good example is that right now there are LaRue Tactical OSR and LaRue Tactical OBR pages. They are the exact same rifle (OSR image is the standard rifle while OBR is tricked out, both versions are currently shown on the LaRue website as the OBR), LaRue was just forced to change the name due to a copyright problem. In this kind of case, which name should be used? I would have just checked other pages to see what the norm is, but my mind is currently drawing a blank to other guns that have changed their name but remained otherwise the same. --commando552 16:52, 7 December 2011 (CST)

Oops... I was the one who made the LaRue Tactical OBR page. I sincerely thought they were different guns, one a Battle Rifle and the other a Sniper Rifle. --Zackmann08 19:08, 7 December 2011 (CST)

Sortable Tables

Zackmann08 had mentioned about modifying our current table format for weapons and actor pages to a version where the boxes are sortable. A sortable template is already made and can be seen on Amitabh Bachchan's page (I've now modified it to look a little more like our current table format). This definitely would be beneficial for the gun pages, but I noticed it takes a little bit longer to load and not sure if users will understand what the sortable icon is for. Would like to get thoughts from admins and users on this before a change is completely made. --Ben41 22:18, 16 December 2011 (CST)

You make a good point about users not knowing what the icon is for. It is in use on wikipedia a lot these days so i think a lot of people are familiar with it and worst case scenario, if they're not then the table is just left in it's default sort. Just my 2 cents on the matter...--Zackmann08 22:54, 16 December 2011 (CST)

It doesn't work with rowspaned tables (like the ones on the Heckler & Koch MP5 page) so it is a one or the other decision. --commando552 04:28, 17 December 2011 (CST)

another very good point, but how many rowspan tables are really in use? Other than the MP5 page i dont recall seing any others, though i havent really been looking for them. --Zackmann08 08:37, 17 December 2011 (CST)

I've used them a few times, but generally only when there are a number of people from the same show/movie using the same weapon, as I think it looks better than having 10 or so entries with the same title and date in a row. If people decide against the rowspaned tables am happy to get rid of them though, was just my preference. --commando552 09:50, 17 December 2011 (CST)

I feel ya. They are definitely preferable to listing the same thing over and over but if the choice is between that and sortable tables, personally I think the sortable ones are worth losing the rowspan. --Zackmann08 11:40, 17 December 2011 (CST)

I like the idea of sortable tables, especially for long pages like Beretta 92F/FS or Arnold Schwarzenegger. However, I have noticed that currently there's a number of page formats depending on the respective contributor. I may not be so experienced with IMFDB like most of you, but it seems to me that it would make more sense to concentrate on developing a way to create a more uniform page format before we spend time on accepting more 'sexy' features. Pretty much like working on a house and spend time on the roof when the foundations have not been properly laid yet. Take care, --PeeWee055 10:29, 18 December 2011 (CST)

I totally agree with PeeWee055. I think what we really need is a single page that we can look at that has a template for everything. A section showing how to make a gun page. A section for actors, section for TV Shows, a section for Movies. That way we all know that this is the page everything should be based off of. This would be far better than saying "look at the M1911 page" because even pages like that have inconsistencies with formatting. The special page could even be put in the toolbar on the left side of the page under "toolbox". That would be amazingly helpful. --Zackmann08 10:57, 18 December 2011 (CST)

Bunni made a template for gun pages: Template:Gun That's how a newly created gun page should look like. Of course, the gun specifications sections can be expanded with other stuff, like barrel length (if a gun comes with 2 or more different barrels, like the Remington MSR for example), country of Origin, Designer and Manufacturer (if it is not in the title of the page, e.g. 9A-91).

And about the sortable tables: I think it is a bad idea. Why would anyone wanna sort a table on an actor page by the notation or character the actor was playing. Sorting by year is the best option IMHO, on both actor and gun pages. - bozitojugg3rn4ut 11:37, 18 December 2011 (CST)

I can see why you wouldn't want to sort by notation, and character would basically result in sorting by movie, but I can see how you would want to sort by what guns an actor has used instead of just what year. Also, one of the benefits of the sortable tables is that some of the older pages that are NOT sorted can be fixed by simply changing the class="wikitable" to class="sortable". As for the template, it does need to be expanded but we also need to find a way to make sure people know it's there and that all pages should follow it. --Zackmann08 12:17, 18 December 2011 (CST)

This is proving to be a highly educational discussion for me as a rookie IMFDB user. Actually, this is the first time I learn about the template pages, and to be honest I fear I am not the only one. Instead of searching through the website, how about simply displaying links to the template pages everytime somebody clicks the button to create a new page? I am sure this will lead to increased uniformity and substantially lower the barrier for new people to get started on a page. Taking things one step further, how about the following? If somebody indicates to create a brand new page, a question box is displayed asking e.g. to make a choice between movie, actor, gun etc. so that after this choice the relating template pops up? Again, I am not sure if this is feasible but I am quite interested to hear your feedback, --PeeWee055 14:23, 18 December 2011 (CST)

I LIKE THIS IDEA!!! We definitely need to make a page that has all the templates listed. Right now its really hard to track down the templates. --Zackmann08 14:52, 18 December 2011 (CST)

Search for "Category:Templates" and it will show u all the templates. --bozitojugg3rn4ut 15:20, 18 December 2011 (CST)

That helps but still that page needs to be publicized better. It also needs to be better explained. How are A-Team, The or MacGyver templates? When I create a new page, I find a good page and I copy the 'wiki code' from it into my new page and then just edit the text. My guess is this is what most people do and I feel like that is what we need. A page with dummy titles, names and guns for people to copy to a new page and work from. Thanks for letting me know about the Template page though. Didn't know that was there. --Zackmann08 16:03, 18 December 2011 (CST)

I think that Zackmann08 is hitting the nail on the head. Building on above comments, how about the following? On the left side of all pages there's the master menu table in blue ('CATEGORIES/SPECIAL/TOOLBOX'). In 'CATEGORIES' one can choose between Movies/Guns/Actors/etc so why not add something simple like 'Templates for New Pages'? If you click that, you'd see just 7 options for new pages; (1) Movie, (2) TV, (3) Anime, (4) Video, (5) Actor, (6) Gun and (7) Others (for whatever else can be 'templated'). Any choice would lead to one single template with dummy info and a short explanation on how to use it. This way an immediate and easy access to the templates will be realized, rather than (I am sorry to say) searching through several menu's in the Toolbox option and finding dozens of random templates. Interested to know what you guys think, --PeeWee055 05:21, 19 December 2011 (CST)

This sounds perfect to me! --Zackmann08 08:41, 19 December 2011 (CST)

So, any volunteers willing and able to start on an addition to "Categories" with "Templates for New pages"? Am not too familiar with such revisions, but do we need authorization from anybody? --PeeWee055 09:25, 20 December 2011 (CST)

Merry Christmas!

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--PeeWee055 14:22, 22 December 2011 (CST)

HAHAHA! I love it!

Merry Christmas guys :) --cool-breeze 16:05, 22 December 2011 (CST)

Gun Brands Pages

I had an interesting idea that I was curious what others thought of. I was thinking it might be helpful to have a page that listed all the guns made by a certain company. For example, a "Smith & Wesson" page that would list all the guns that they have. To clarify, it would only list guns that are on this site. As per the rules this is NOT a gun encyclopedia and gun pages are only on this site if they appear in a movie/tv show/etc. I feel that it could be quite helpful in trying to identify weapons. We could divide the pages into Pistols, Revolvers, Shotguns, Rifles, etc. just like a movie page and set it up as a table perhaps with some of the characteristics listed such as caliber(s), barrel length(s), etc. Would could even have a 'notes' column that list certain characteristics that help to identify it (for example for Taurus 92, "distinguished from the Beretta by its frame-mounted safety").

If this is an idea that people think might be useful, and if an admin will give me approval, I would love to create a trial page for one of the smaller companies. (I'd rather not do S&W to start with if it turns out people don't like it). I could perhaps start with Ruger which has a good number of guns. Please share your thoughts! --Zackmann08 10:07, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds like an interesting plan. Thing is that quite often I see a gun and I have a general idea what brand it could be but then I find myself flipping through many gunpages in the IMFDB hoping that the gun I am looking for has been properly registered under that brand's name. In the case of e.g. Smith & Wesson (to name but a brand...) I can imagine such a page to be very useful. Will be following this discussion, --PeeWee055 10:18, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Yeah it seems like it would be a good idea.--Predator20 10:32, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Trial page is up and running! I went ahead and did Ruger. I threw in a gallery as well. I'm not sure whether it's better have it right after the table or to put it at the bottom of the page or what. Please share all your thoughts on the page! --Zackmann08 11:23, 23 December 2011 (CST)

I think there is no need for the tables and galleries. Just simply put the caliber after the gun's name in the gallery. Like: "Ruger LCP - .380 ACP". Sorting gun's by type if definitely good, and seeing the thumbnail of the gun's will really speed up the IDing process (at least for me it will). The whole idea of these pages is great, considering that some guns (mostly Russians) are listed without the manufacturers' names. If more pages like this will spawn, we will need a "Gun Manufacturers" category, or something like that. I definitely support this idea, but the mods will decide. - bozitojugg3rn4ut 12:58, 23 December 2011 (CST)

I completely agree. The only thing is that some of these guns have 5+ calibers which could be cumbersome in the Gallery format... It would be great to have a 'Gun Manufacturers' category. --Zackmann08 13:25, 23 December 2011 (CST)

I also added the Barrett & FN Herstal pages. --Zackmann08 14:26, 23 December 2011 (CST)Zackmann08 13:44, 23 December 2011 (CST)

You could put them in table but have the far right column be a picture (put in [[Image:file_name.jpg|200px]]). Would take up more vertical room than a gallery, but you could then include calibre, magazine size (helpfull for identifying different 5/6 shot cylinder revolvers, and differences between double/single stack handguns for example), year introduced (which would also help with ruling stuff out for IDs in older films/TV) etc. I suppose a notes catagory could also ,be usefull, say if a gun is available in multiple finishes and stuff like that. I think these pages are a good idea, but I think having the specifications section is a bit irrelevent for a company, I would just tag it on the end of "About". --commando552 15:27, 23 December 2011 (CST)

This is what you mean, Commando?

Weapon	Caliber(s)	Capacity	Introduced	Image
Remington MSR	.338 Lapua Magnum .338 Norma Magnum .300 Winchester Magnum 7.62x51mm NATO	5, 7, 10	Late 2000s	Error creating thumbnail: File missing
Remington XM2010 ESR	.300 Winchester Magnum	5	2010	Error creating thumbnail: File missing

You are right BTW, the year and capacity can help a lot in IDing. bozitojugg3rn4ut 15:58, 23 December 2011 (CST)

THAT LOOKS AWESOME!!! I am sold... That is how I am doing it. Next question, what do we want to do about variants? For example with the FN FAL do we also list the FN LAR on the FN Herstal page or just the FN FAL and figure if you are trying to identify the gun you will go to the FN FAL page and look at the variants? Same goes for the FN SCAR. --Zackmann08 16:28, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Yeah, that's what I mean. I think this is more usefull than just a gallery, and also it would be a place where sortable tables would definitely be useful, as you could sort the guns by name or chronologically. For a while I've been meaning to do a table of all the Colt AR-15 variants for my own use, but would be good for the Colt page. AR-15s are kind of a special case as their are so many variants that are very similar at first glance, so would include more columns (like upper/lower receiver type, barrel length and profile, bayonet lug, stuff like that) so someone who didn't know much about different variants could sort the columns and work out what a gun is. Regardless if it ends up going on the Colt page, I'm going to make it and put it on my user page to see how it turns out.

As for different variants I would list them as they can look noticeably different, as is the case with the FAR and the LAR (these are pretty distinctly different weapons, more of a grey area would be listing different FAL variants such as the 50.00, 50.61 and 50.63). With guns like the SCAR, I think the split should just be between the H and the L, not the different barrel lengths. --commando552 16:43, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Fair enough. The other idea that I had was to add an additional column called "variants". This would be great for weapons like the MP5 which all have the same base. Got the idea from this wikipedia page: Heckler and Koch. Glad to see so many people are taking a liking to this idea. I defiantly want to make it happen. Also, the AR-15 idea is a GREAT one. Perhaps a 1911 page as well. --Zackmann08 16:56, 23 December 2011 (CST)

You talking like one page for ALL 1911 variants, or seperate pages for each 1911 company? But then how would we handle, say, an SW1911? Would it be on the S&W page, or the 1911 page? Or both?----JazzBlackBelt-- 23:31, 23 December 2011 (CST)

I've continued working on the three trial pages (Ruger, Barrett & FN Herstal). I have noticed that A LOT of these guns are missing the most basic information (no specifications). If anyone is looking for a task, that would be a great one. I will do my part once I get these pages fully up. --Zackmann08 20:32, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Loving the idea, I am considering making a SIG-Sauer trial page with the basics only, then going back later and adding in lesser known stuff. But I want to see how these pages come along!----JazzBlackBelt-- 23:31, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Please keep in mind that the mods will decide. DO NOT create additional gun manufacturer pages until an approval comes from them. It will be a waste of time if they delete them later. - bozitojugg3rn4ut 02:26, 24 December 2011 (CST)

That is why I said wanted to see what happened to these pages first.----JazzBlackBelt-- 14:19, 24 December 2011 (CST)

Another thing that would be great, is if anyone wants to go through the trial pages ((Ruger, Barrett, Heckler & Koch & FN Herstal) and make sure that each weapon has specifications on its page that would be great. As i was creating these pages I noticed that most of the weapons were lacking the most basic specifications and info. (This could be yet another use for these pages!) --Zackmann08 08:08, 24 December 2011 (CST)

We had this discussion in the forum a long time ago, and the consensus was that it was NOT a useful means of classifying weapons on the site. Hence why I deleted the page originally. I'm still not sure it's all that useful. -MT2008 08:58, 24 December 2011 (CST)

I respectfully disagree. For someone like me who is a still a novice with guns it is exceptionally helpful when identifying weapons. This will be particularly true when it comes to things like the Smith and Wesson revolvers. It is often easy to identify the revolver is a Smith and Wesson but harder to know which model. If there is a single page that list all the Smith and Wesson revolvers it saves us from having to go through page by page. I just find it is so helpful to have one location where you can see a picture and the basics of the possible weapons. If it is helpful for some of us is it okay to leave these up? I will personally make sure that the pages are done in a professional looking manner and are not sloppily thrown together. I truly believe that (as long as they are done in the proper manner) they can make a fantastic addition to this already awesome website. (ok so that was a bit of kissing up but it's true, this site freaking rocks! :-) ) I'm also using this 'project' as an excuse to update many of these weapons so that their pages are in the correct format with specifications and descriptions.

I appreciate that I am still a new guy here and I really DO NOT want to be that guy who joins and says "nice thing you got going here but you should really change it because I know better." I DO NOT know better, please don't take this in that light. I am merely saying that there are a lot of people who would like to contribute but don't have the knowledge that some of you experts do. I think that this addition would help us novices contribute. I welcome your feedback. Oh, and a Merry Christmas/Happy Chanukah to everyone! --Zackmann08 09:21, 24 December 2011 (CST)

I propose changing 'introduced' to 'produced' and having it be a to and from date. Basically how long the weapon was in productions for. 1995-2005 rather than just 1995 for example. Any thoughts?? --Zackmann08 12:24, 25 December 2011 (CST)

Would love to hear some feedback from the admins on this project. I would like to continue with it but don't want to do a bunch of work and then have the pages removed. --Zackmann08 09:13, 26 December 2011 (CST)

Looks good. I'm a mod here. I really like the Colt page. The S&W page is going to be an intensive piece of labor for you. I agree with bunni. We need a category for these new pages. --Jcordell 16:29, 27 December 2011 (CST)

I'm a mod as well and I really like what I'm seeing. This will be a lot of work but I think it will be quite an invaluable resource once it is finished, as long as it is done well. Kudos. - Speakeasy804 21:51, 6 January 2012 (CST)

I started the SIG-Sauer page, and am about 3/4 done. Any help would be appreciated! Oh, and if anyone knows how to change the name of a page I would greatly appreciate for it to be renamed SIG-Sauer Inc.----JazzBlackBelt-- 17:33, 16 January 2012 (CST)

SIG-Sauer is fine. According to Bunni we are not using "inc" or "LLC" in the page titles. --Zackmann08 19:34, 16 January 2012 (CST)

That's fine, I wasn't sure if it was necessary or not.----JazzBlackBelt-- 20:19, 16 January 2012 (CST)

Battle Los Angeles

I have a question that I cant seem to get a good bead on, in the movie Battle Los Angeles Aaron Eckhart is seen using an m9 Beretta as his pistol,which I know is the main side arm used by US military forces. However, it was my understanding that the Marines used the 1911 as their sidearm and were the only branch to keep it as the main side arm. Eckhart's character in the movie is a grizzled old vet and had just put in for his 20 at the beginning of the movie meaning that he must have joined back in 1990-1991 and it would make sense to me why he would hold on to something like that. Either way please let me know what you got, thanks NavyBoyd

For movie-specific discussions, please go to [associated talk page].--PistolJunkie 19:57, 23 December 2011 (CST)

Gun Page Templates

As part of the 'Gun Brands Pages' project (see above), I am also trying to make sure that each weapon included has specifications listed on its page. I am using the following as my template. If anyone thinks it is missing anything, please let me know. (Note that I made it a subheading with 3 '=' instead of the normal 2 '=' so that it wouldn't be its own category. normally it would just have 2.) I personally don't feel that Muzzle Velocity or effective range are necessary but I am up for input and critique. Just want to make sure I am doing this right! Merry Christmas everyone! Oh and under FireModes I am including DA,SA,DAO,DA/SA if applicable. --Zackmann08 15:38, 25 December 2011 (CST)

<-- start template-->

Specifications

(year - year)

Type: Handgun/Revolver/Submachine Gun/Sniper Rifle/etc.

Caliber(s):

Weight: lb ( kg) (empty)

Length: in ( mm)

Barrel length: in ( mm)

Capacity:

Fire Modes: Safe/Semi-Auto/Full-Auto (950rounds/min)

<--end template-->

Another question that one of the veterans can help me out with. With guns that have Variations (Heckler & Koch P2000 or Heckler & Koch USP for example), should each subcategory have its own specifications with the different length, capacity, etc. For example should the Heckler & Koch P2000 have just one specifications section for the page or should there be one for the H&K P2000 and one for the H&K P2000SK. (This is the way I did the page but I want to make sure that this is ok. If I'm supposed to just do one section I will gladly correct it.) --Zackmann08 16:03, 25 December 2011 (CST)

I can't create a new thread in the forum

I logged into the forum and tried to create a new thread, but I get a message that says I don't have permission to access the page. I'm using a different username than I have used before, so is my account "awaiting activation?"--Phillb36 11:06, 1 January 2012 (CST)

I had the same problem a few days ago. You want to talk to Bunni. He'll fix it for ya. Happy new year. --Zackmann08 13:28, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Thanks for your help. I followed your advice and left a message for Bunni over a week ago but he hasn't yet responded. Has he not been around lately?--Phillb36 10:12, 13 January 2012 (CST)

I think it's time to end the silencer/suppressor debate

I see this a lot, people correct other people "It's a suppressor, not a silencer. It doesn't silence the gun" and I think it really needs to stop. Way back in 1910, the first silencer was patented by Hiram Maxim as the SILENCER. Way back then, they weren't even that good compared to today's because the technology has been advanced on yet they were still called silencers. Them having the name silencer is just a name, after all there is a model of the Ithaca 37 called "Deer Slayer". It's a inanimate object which cannot slay deer. It can be used to kill deer however but the name doesn't fit it unless it operated on it's own to shoot deer. There are some people named Rose or Diamond but they aren't a flower or an expensive jewel. My point is with this is that it's just a name. Even today, the BATFE calls them silencers on the paper work and many companies that make them call them silencers. There is even a company called SilencerCO.

The reason why a lot of people call them suppressor is because in the 1970s the magazine, Soldier of Fortune, started calling them suppressors and giving the reason that I stated in the first sentence. Most people that I've seen that actually own them call them silencers and they have most likely done their research on them.

In conclusion, calling them silencers is not wrong and neither is calling them suppressors. You call them either and you're right. It's when you claim that silencer is the improper term. Silencer is just a name, it's the way it is. --FIVETWOSEVEN 10:20, 9 January 2012 (CST)

I personally prefer "suppressor", it's a nice, woody, sort of word. --Milkovich Error creating thumbnail: File missing 13:51, 10 January 2012 (CST)

Yes, "silencer" is a name, but it's a misnomer. "Silencer" suggests absolutely no sound is produced when a shot is fired; "Suppressor" properly states that the sound will be muffled instead of completely silenced. It's the same as saying bullet-resistant instead of bulletproof. --Ben41 17:52, 10 January 2012 (CST)

I don't see anyone complaining that their shotgun doesn't kill deer on it's own. IT'S A NAME and it's correct. .223 fires a .224 caliber bullet, are you going to complain about that too?--FIVETWOSEVEN 19:37, 10 January 2012 (CST)

I agree. I think "Suppressor" sounds more accurate and professional. If it were a silencer, there would be little or no sound at all, which unless you use a suppressed .22 with half loads and a plastic bottle, is impossible, and even THAT makes a sound. I say we go with Suppressor.--User:Scattergun

While "Silencer" is correct in general terms, the term "suppressor" is preferred largely because of the Hollywood concept of the "magic silencer" that literally makes a gunshot into the sound of a kitten sneezing. The "suppressor" term was coined to give a more realistic idea of what the device actually does; it suppresses the sound, it doesn't silence it. Evil Tim 11:05, 14 January 2012 (CST)

NCIS: LA gun change?

The latest episode of NCIS: LA "Exit Strategy" the guns don't see to be the normal Sig 228s. The guns are still Sigs, but with rails, and Deeks was not carrying his normal Beretta. Deeks' weapon may have been the same S&W used in the episode "Empty Quiver". -Tucker

Single or Double-Stack 1911?

Which is a better 1911 variant to have? A single stack or a double stack magazine. I heard somewhere that a 14-shot 1911 is more prone to jamming but I'm not sure. The reason is I am currently writing a script for an independent movie that me and my class will make and I have access to all kinds of guns, both blank-adapted and Japanese flash cap versions, and the main character is to carry a 1911 .45 and I was wondering what the more professional choice would be to carry.

Personally I would go for a Kimber Custom II TLE or a Springfield Armoury TRP, both are single stackers. --cool-breeze 12:58, 13 January 2012 (CST)

Novel guns?

I know this may seem like a stupid idea, but should we include guns that feature in books? I have several books in my bookcase that go into great detail about guns, albeit sometimes they call sub-machine guns machine guns for some reason. (Seriously, how can you mix it up?) I'm new here, please go easy, but please give it some thought. They could either be on the book cover or featured in print inside. I know it would be pointless to include a screenshot of the text, but there are some pages on IMFDB that are just lists of guns and pictures of the guns themselves. Alasdair

Check out the Rules, Standards and Principles page. It will help set your straight. Good thing for new users to read (I found this out the hard way just a few weeks ago when I joined). --Zackmann08 11:35, 15 January 2012 (CST)

Ah, I see. Thanks. Alasdair.

Manufacturer Pages

With more people starting to work on Manufacturer Pages, I'm working on making a template for the pages (Manufacturer Template). I am going to add a link to it from the [[Category:Manufacturer]] page. I figure this will help to make sure that they all stay consistent. (Note: not all of the pages that I have already made conform to the standards that I listed on the template, I will be fixing that in the next few days.) My goal is to make sure that these pages look professional and are useful! If anyone, particularly admins, has things that would like to add to the pages or to correct with future pages, please edit the template accordingly. Thanks! --Zackmann08 13:41, 19 January 2012 (CST)

Glock Manufacturer's Page

I was getting ready to make the Glock page for the new Manufacturers category and ran into a small problem. The new page would ideally be called Glock but that is already taken by the Glock page which has all their guns. I definitely think this page would be helpful (at least I know it would I'd find it useful) as it will help you decide whether you are looking at a G17 or a G21. I welcome any and all ideas and suggestions. --Zackmann08 17:54, 19 January 2012 (CST)

The actual company is trademarked in all capitals as GLOCK so you could do that. Either that or you could put "manufacturer" in brackets after it, or make this the one exception where you put on the crap after the name, in this case "Ges.m.b.H.". If not that, I don't think a manufacturer page is as important for Glocks as other brands, as they are all already on the same page. --commando552 18:05, 19 January 2012 (CST)

All good ideas. I'll prolly just go with (manufacturer). I agree that its not as important but it could still be super useful. I think I'm going to add a 'frame' column like we did with the S&W revolvers. This time it will have "Compact" "Standard", "SubCompact", etc.. --Zackmann08 18:29, 19 January 2012 (CST)

Taurus

I am in the process of redoing all the Taurus gun pages. Giving them all specifications, converting to wiki-table, etc. If there are any Taurus aficionados in the house who are willing and able to fill in the information that I am having trouble finding (mainly production dates), that would be great! --Zackmann08 13:15, 20 January 2012 (CST)

Beretta

I'm in the process of making the Beretta page. My understanding is that for Semi-Automatic pistols we DO NOT include "Model" in the page title, Beretta 418 for example. There are a few pages that are not consistent with this pattern. Just want to make sure that they are all named correctly and follow the same rules. Could an admin look into this? --Zackmann08 23:52, 20 January 2012 (CST)

Proper name for CZ

It has been brought to my attention that the new Manufacturer page for CZ may not be properly named. The full name of the manufacturer is "Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod". I am hesistant to use this name for a couple reasons. 1) Its kind of a pain to type on a 'standard' keyboard. 2) Most people (I THINK) know the company as "CZ". One possible compromise I'm considering is renaming the page "CZ (Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod) and having "CZ" redirect there. I would love to hear some thoughts on the matter. --Zackmann08 10:45, 25 January 2012 (CST)

I would use the full name with a redirect, but if you are calling it CZUB rather than Česká zbrojovka, that would exclude at least a couple of guns, such as the vz. 24 which was made by Československá zbrojovka Brno. I'm no expert on CZ, but it was my understanding that any words after the "Česká zbrojovka" part were just different factories, or is this wrong? While talking about proper names for gun pages, what should the page be called if the manufacturer has changed its name or merged? For example, when I made the Royal Small Arms Factory page I used the original name rather than Royal Ordnance. However I was going to make a Denel Land Systems page, which was originally called Lyttleton Engineering Works, but the Denel name is much more commonly known so didn't know what to use. Any suggestions for a general rule on this sort of thing? --commando552 12:23, 25 January 2012 (CST)

I think we definitely need a CZ expert to take a look at this page... Any volunteers??? As for the different names, first and foremost, whatever the page ends up being, there should be redirects form all the others. So for example Royal Ordnance should redirect to the Royal Small Arms Factory. Also, whatever the final name of the page ends up being, there should be a short explanation about the fact that it is "Also Known As ______" or "Formally Known As ____". As for a general rule, while I think it would be best to go with what the company is most commonly known as, in the end, that is a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the rule of thumb should be to go with what the company is currently known as (use the company website?) and have other names redirect there. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

As a side note, while talking about redirect, I'm also trying to set up redirects for these pages that will help newcomers when searching the site. For example, if you search S&W now, instead of getting a page listing all the times that that the letters 'S' and 'W' appear on a page, you are now taken to the Smith & Wesson page. Just food for thought. --Zackmann08 12:36, 25 January 2012 (CST)

what exactly do you want to know about the CZ? I grew up in czechoslovakia, we used to carry these handguns in the army.

A question about a bolt

Off-topic, but could anyone ID this bolt? http://www.forgottenweapons.com/mystery-bolt Thanks, a relatively new and inexperienced user.

Site Policy On 'Made Up' Weapons

Could someone please clarify the site's policy on guns fabricated for films and videogames? I've edited articles on the Killzone games in the past only to have the articles taken down altogether because the guns featured aren't real. Now I'd accept that as fair enough, except other articles (e.g. Alien: Resurrection and Perfect Dark) deal with non-existent weapons at some length and nobody complains, even though some of the weapons they describe feature far less in common with real guns than the Killzone games' weapons did; at least many of those featured parts that were readily identifiable as belonging to real-world weapons. By deleting one and sparing the others, you're creating something of a double standard--Leigh Burne 09:56, 31 January 2012 (CST)

Gun Title Template

Is there any way to get rid of the <br clear=all> that results from using the Gun Title template? I noticed that it can cause some problems when the gun in question has multiple images as there will be a bunch of white space before the list of occurrences. For an example of what I mean look at Smith & Wesson Model 610. --Zackmann08 12:14, 1 February 2012 (CST)

Gangster Squad

Since I can't create a thread in the forum I decided to post this here.

The upcoming movie Gangster Squad will be released this year, and someone managed to record scenes being filmed, then posted the videos on Youtube. A couple of the videos feature shootouts.

This first one shows the "Gangster Squad" involved in a firefight and has a lot of M1 Thompson action:

Gangster Squad 1

The second video shows what I'm assuming are gangster-types, which is shot too far away to make positive ID's on all the weapons, but I think I know what most of them are. Two of them are using the usual Thompsons, but the guy kneeling between the cars seems to have a Sten, judging by the way he's holding it. There's another guy firing an smg, which due to the way he's holding it and it's rate of fire, I think is either an MP-40 or M-3. It's impossible to tell because he's obscured by a car. I'm pretty sure the guy up in the building is using a Lewis Gun.

Gangster Squad 2

I love these period crime movies, and this one looks really promising. What I'm seeing in these videos suggests there will be some great shootouts in this movie, and I just hope that's what we actually get in the final cut--Phillb36 09:04, 2 February 2012 (CST)

How do i add upload an image here?

I have gun to add, how do i add an image of it?

Also, how do i create a user page for myself?

Sorry if i am in the wrong section. If so, then please guide me to the right section.

Look to the left; under Toolbox is upload file. To edit your user page, go to the top of the screen, where it has your username, followed by My Talk, My Preferences, ect. Click your username (red means there is nothing there yet).--Jackbel 19:38, 4 February 2012 (CST)

Fictional Airsoft Guns

Just noticed that on the Milkor MGL page there is an entry for the CAW 40mm Grenade Launcher, an airsoft grenade launcher. It seems random that it is on this page as it is a fictional design that shares basically nothing with the Milkor. Are there many other fictional airsoft variants that appear in stuff (only one I can think of off the top of my head is that weird AKS-74U variant that is in Call of Duty), if so is it worth creating a page for fictional airsoft guns that do not have a real world equivalent? I previously made a similar page for Blank Fire Only Guns that are not based on any specific live fire weapon, would be like that. Anyone have any thoughts on this? --commando552 12:56, 7 February 2012 (CST)

- Personally, I think if it resembles the weapon, even if its fictional, it should share the page at the bottom. After all, the Bruni 1911 and the Bruni Python aren't real guns but they share a page with their real world Colt counterparts. At least thats how I feel about it. -User:Scattergun

That is different to what I am talking about though. The very reason that the two guns you mentioned are where they are (at the bottom of the live fire equivalent page) rather than on the blank fire page is that they are clearly based on real world guns. The Bruni Olympic 6 however isn't based on any particular real world design and is just a generic revolver, hence it being on the blank fire page. My idea was that airsoft guns that are not based on any particular gun, such as the grenade launcher I mentioned above, could be put on one page for ID and listing purposes. My question really was are there enough "unique", for lack of a better term, airsoft guns around to make a page like this worth it? --commando552 14:10, 7 February 2012 (CST)

Naming conventions for SIG guns

Now that I have finished the S&W pages, I am moving on to revamping the SIG Sauer pages. I wanted to get feedback, particularly from admins, about the consisten disagreement about SIG vs SIG Sauer vs SIG-Sauer and see if we could come to a consensus. Some of the page have the full SIG-Sauer in the title (SIG-Sauer P220 pistol series & SIG-Sauer P230) while other simply have SIG (SIG P210 & SIG SG 540). If for no other reason than to make sure that FUTURE pages are done correctly, which is the proper format? --Zackmann08 19:49, 9 February 2012 (CST)

It's not a matter of shorthand, the correct title depends on the firearm in question. The pistols with SIG-Sauer as the title were made by SIG-Sauer Inc., while the ones with SIG as the title were made by SIG independently, not with Sauer. Generally, the older guns (P210 & 510) are made by SIG only or Swiss Arms (which refers to themselves as SIG), while newer guns are SIG-Sauer. What I suppose I'm trying to say is that the titles are accurate as-is. As to whether the admins want SIG-Sauer or SIG Sauer is beyond me, although as they are two companies joined together I'm pretty sure there would be a hyphen.----JazzBlackBelt-- 22:27, 9 February 2012 (CST)

OOOOOHHHHHHHHH!! That makes so much more sense.... I never actually realized that SIG and Sauer were 2 separate companies that merged. Thank you SO much for that explanation!

Given that, disregard my initial question! --Zackmann08 00:17, 10 February 2012 (CST)

Having said that, I still think all of the page that say "SIG-Sauer" should get rid of the hyphen and say "SIG Sauer", as this is how both the Swiss/German and American companies spell it. If there is an actual reason for adding in a hyphen then fair enough, but has always seemed a bit random to me. --commando552 04:17, 10 February 2012 (CST)

Taken directly from the SIG-Sauer P220 pistol series page: NOTE: In the past, some IMFDB users have mis-spelled "SIG-Sauer" as "Sig Sauer". "Sig Sauer" is not the correct spelling; "SIG" is an acronym for Swiss Industrial Society ("Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft " in German), and thus, all three letters should be capitalized. Also, it is preferred that IMFDB users put a hyphen between "SIG" and "Sauer".----JazzBlackBelt-- 12:23, 12 February 2012 (CST)

I've seen the message that putting the hyphen in is the preferred method on imfdb, but I don't understand why this is. As I said, neither the US or swiss/german companies use the hyphen so why do we? If it is a formatting reason or something technical that I don't understand then fair enough, but otherwise I think it should be deleted. --commando552 15:09, 12 February 2012 (CST)

I have to agree with Commando here... Both Wikipedia and http://www.sigsauer.com/ list it as SIG Sauer. Why was the decision made to include the Hyphen here? --Zackmann08 16:36, 12 February 2012 (CST)

Television wikitable

Up until now I have been using the following table for any pages that I convert from list format to table format:

Show Title / Episode	Actor	Character	Note	Air Date
CSI: Miami / "Down to the Wire"	Tom Sizemore	Private Investigator Kurt Rossi		2002 - Present

I was considering modifying this to give Episode its own column. I wanted to see what people thought of this idea...

Show Title	Episode(s)	Actor	Character	Note	Air Date
CSI: Miami	"Down to the Wire"	Tom Sizemore	Private Investigator Kurt Rossi		2002 - Present

Any feedback is appreciated. :-) --Zackmann08 01:26, 11 February 2012 (CST)

I've been combining the episode and note columns. I think I picked that up from Ben. That always made sense for me because episode info or notes are sometimes missing or unnecessary, while Show Title is ALWAYS present. I've always tried to supply episode info, and it could get a little tight when it's in there with the show name. --Funkychinaman 01:42, 11 February 2012 (CST)

Sako vs SAKO

I want to come to another consensus here... Is it SAKO or Sako? I.E. SAKO 85 Hunter vs Sako TRG-21. --Zackmann08 13:40, 11 February 2012 (CST)

It's an acronym (Suojeluskuntain Ase- ja Konepaja Oy), which would suggest all caps. If you go to the US website, the page is titled "SAKO Finland." Strangely enough, if you go to the "Company" link, they refer to themselves as just "Sako." --Funkychinaman 15:36, 11 February 2012 (CST)

Companies w/ one single product

I have always wondered, what about those companies that have only one single product, like AMSD, Rafael, DRS Precisions,... (I am sure there is more) Can they have a Manufacturer page or not? - bozitojugg3rn4ut 06:53, 12 February 2012 (CST)

Can they? Yes... Should they? No... Just my humble opinion... --Zackmann08 11:49, 12 February 2012 (CST)

Featured Articles

Question for our admins regarding the featured articles on the main page. What is the process for becoming a featured article? I know that for obvious reasons (preventing vandalism, etc.) the Template:FeaturedArticle2 is locked, but is there a way for us non-admins to suggest new articles? Could we perhaps set something up whereby non-admins could post an addition in the discussion page for Template:FeaturedArticle2 and if an admin approves of the addition, it could then be added into the mix? I really do love the random articles that pop up on the front page but as a very frequent visitor, seeing the same images over and over starts to get a little boring... Even just changing the images for a given "Featured Article" would be nice. For example, keeping The Unit (one of the best articles on the site) as a featured article but choosing 2 different images to be displayed. Any thoughts? --Zackmann08 22:34, 13 February 2012 (CST)

Wannabe Indie game dev has some questions

I'm looking into making a simple target range simulator, most likely in a software like Unity3d or Coppercube which i have experience in. I am however unsure if entire realism is a good or possibly bad move, not only for game-play, but also because I feel it wouldn't have that... special feeling of a video game, when you play a role playing game for example, they all have their own mood. Pokemon is not Final Fantasy is not The Elder Scrolls. My main concern is how all target range simulator's I've played always go graphics realism, but the shooting mechanics tend to be surreal. This makes it not very fun for many people, people who like goals in their games get to set high scores, but not much else. People who possess firearm knowledge are easily ticked off by the fact that it is trying to be real, but lacks true realism due to all sorts of game-play errors. So while this may seem far fetched, my idea is simple. Mix a realistic (game-play) target range with surreal and almost child-like simple 3d graphics and a basic plot. For those familiar with the concepts in Pokemon, the player character has two primary goals, to collect info on all the monsters, and to defeat all the gym leaders and then the elite four. Target ranges would be like gyms, each has people who you can challenge to accuracy, fastest shot, and other contests of skill. While traveling from range to range, you can collect more firearms, not in grass, but from vendors and helping people with small side-quests, etc. I doubt this kind of a game would receive much, if any audience, particularly being that it's too serious and gun-friendly in content for most children (or more specifically, their parents) to buy, and it's far too childish in graphics for Adults. It's a happy middle where it's a game i would personally love to play, and hopefully so would a few others out there somewhere. All in all, I think a target range and competition based collection RPG with a heavy emphasis on gameplay and fun while still maintaining key aspects of gun culture would be a unique game. (things like policing your brass to be reused with powder and appropriate caliber bullets as a cheaper way to procure and load ammunition, maybe even allowing you to tweak the amount of powder that way). It's hard to explain the whole concept as I haven't nailed every little thing down yet. I was planning on starting the project on a smaller scale, then slowly adding more. So is this a good idea or am i barking up the wrong tree? I'd love to do full realism, but I honestly want the game to be atleast partially fun or stylized. (I am not looking for help making this game, I merely want feedback on the ideas) (I also hope I did not break anything by posting this, I am unfamiliar with wiki editing, and I am relying on your guides.) --Pepper 12:31, 18 February 2012 (CST)

First thing: please post "I am not a bot" after this message before you post anything else on this wiki. Your message seems a little...out of place, and I want to check it's not automated spam. Evil Tim 12:44, 18 February 2012 (CST)

Not a bot, Sorry for any confusion based on the ludicrous idea and my unusual name choice. I couldn't find any other place where i could... Oh. you have a forum. How did i miss that? Sorry. Seems so obvious now that it's glaring at me on the left. And now I forgot to sign. --Pepper 14:07, 18 February 2012 (CST)

Email confirmed on forums, but now Posting Rules: You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts... Whaaa? --Pepper 14:12, 18 February 2012 (CST)

Unfortunately the automatic approvals don't work for some reason, you'll need to leave a message on User:Bunni's talk page to get approved. Evil Tim 10:06, 23 February 2012 (CST)

Top Shot

For all you Top Shot fans, we have a new viewer of IMFDB. I just got re-tweeted by Colby Donaldson... He's checking out the page. :-) --Zackmann08 21:16, 22 February 2012 (CST)

Haha, that's great!----JazzBlackBelt-- 21:18, 22 February 2012 (CST)

SOCOM 4

Anyone agree it would would a great idea to add Socom 4 with the other SOCOM games in the video game category?--Commandoninja137 21:28, 23 February 2012 (CST)

CSI

I am in the process of trying to redo the CSI pages. There are a LOT of guns used in these series. I feel like they deserve as much attention as the NCIS pages which are awesome at the moment. If anyone has any of the seasons on DVD and is interested in helping that would be awesome. I just finished CSI: NY - Season 7 and am preparing to do season 6. --Zackmann08 22:46, 24 February 2012 (CST)

New "Current" template

So we already have a number of awesome templates for labeling pages. The Upcoming template for stuff that hasn't been released yet. The Work in Progress template for pages that someone is currently working on. Anyone have any thoughts on making a new template for pages that are currently being updated? For example, the current season of NCIS or the current season of Hawaii Five-0. There not exactly "upcoming" because the upcoming template specifically says "all images are from trailers" and they aren't exactly a work in progress... Just a thought. :-) --Zackmann08 13:20, 29 February 2012 (CST)

New category: "Containing Unidentified Firearm"?

I was just wondering if it would make sense to create a new category "Containing Unidentified Firearm" for movies that contain a gun that cannot be identified by the page creator. This way, anybody (like me...) who gets a kick out of identifying a gun that other people could not, can very efficiently assist others to complete pages. If you guys think it's a good idea, any suggestions how to create/promote this category? Thanks for any comments, --PeeWee055 15:43, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

I was thinking about that just last night... I think its a GREAT idea! --Zackmann08 16:32, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

Great! Could you advise on the following; (1) what would be a good name? (2) how to create that category? and (3) how can I get other users to start using the category? Look forward to hear from you, --PeeWee055 16:49, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

I would advise talking to a few admins before doing anything else. We wanna get feedback from them before proceeding. --Zackmann08 17:38, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

A good name for this category might be "Movies with unidentified guns" or "Featuring unknown weapons" or something like that. ManchurianCandidate 19:16, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

I agree that something like this would be a good idea. Something to bear in mind though, there are a lot of pages with unidentified guns on this site, most of the time because they are only seen partially, briefly, from a distance or in poor lighting, or just due to the fact that they may be "generic" looking (I bet there are a hell of a lot of pages on here that say "unidentified revolver"). With most of these guns it will be impossible to get a firm ID so the tag will remain there forever, meaning that if someone wanted to try and be helpful and ID a few guns 99% of them would be a vaguely pistol shaped shadow (if it was a chronological list this would be less of a problem but categories are alphabetised). I think a better solution might be to have a discussion page somewhere where people can post caps of unidentified guns they have found whilst building pages, adding the new unidentified gun at the top of the page. This way you would be able to periodically purge the guns that are unidentifiable (e.g. speck in the distance) and would allow discussion between people to help ID the guns. I think it would also be a more successful way of getting unknown guns identified, as if you are good at IDing guns you can just watch this hypothetical page and see whenever a new unidentified gun crops up, as opposed to with a category where you don't know (as for as I know) when something has been added to it. --commando552 20:37, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

Commando makes a good point. I propose a middle ground. There is a difference between "I cannot identify this gun" and "this gun cannot be identified". A gun that is only seen for a split second may not be identifiable and may simply be called an "unknown" revolver/pistol/etc. Pages that have those types of guns would NOT fall under this category. On the other hand, if you are working on a page and dont know what some of the guns are, you can add the tag and that will be a clue to some of our more experienced members to swoop in and help out. I'm in the process of capping all 20+ seasons of the 3 CSIs and there are a LOT of guns (particularly revolvers) that I can't identify but from time to time senior members come in and identify them. It would be great to tag these pages until either a) all guns are identified or b) a determination is made that 1 or more guns simply cannot be identified from the images provided. Basically I look at this as a variation of the WorkInProcess template. The page is done, all guns are uploaded, but not everything has been identified. --Zackmann08 20:56, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

Check out the template... Template:Unidentified --Zackmann08 21:44, 11 March 2012 (CDT)

As long as it was only used for guns that could be identified if you knew what they were rather than guns you don't see properly it would probably be helpful. Still, would be nice if there was some way of doing it chronologically so you could see when a new thing with unidentified guns is added. Just throwing it out there, here is another possible image to use for the unidentified guns template. I think it looks more like a question mark and is actually made from real weapons (a Korobov TKB-022 and a No. 74 sticky bomb). --commando552 07:06, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

AWWW but i spent so much time making that quesiton mark just right!!! Grrr... Yorus is better tho... :-p --Zackmann08 12:29, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

I like the idea and the templates, but rather than make it too complicated trying to get the question mark perfect, what if we just put a gun overlaying a simple, perfectly recognizable question mark. I like the idea of making the gun into a question mark, but I really have to look in order to see it on those. If I had any idea how to make one, I would.----JazzBlackBelt-- 15:59, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

I don't mind if the question mark gun thing isn't used, in fact a regular blacked out background photo of a gun would be better as would be more in keeping with the other templates, but what is the perfect "unknown" gun that the majority of people cannot identify? This? --commando552 17:02, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

We could use something like that, or what about a blurry outline of a gun in front of a question mark? I think that the question mark makes the template identifiable, rather than just the words 'Unidentified Firearm' across the middle.----JazzBlackBelt-- 18:02, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

I like --JazzBlackBelt--'s idea. We definatly want to keep the question mark up there. --Zackmann08 19:05, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

Since the majority of unidentified guns I've seen are revolvers, why not make it a S&W Model 27 or a Colt Official Police (or some other revolver... I dislike the idea of using a weird gun for some reason). Maybe make it a Vz 58? It looks like an AK to the untrained eye, and would be mistaken for such if not for the people on this website. Inside joke, huh? ManchurianCandidate 19:24, 13 March 2012 (CDT)

Thanks for all your input, what a short post from me a week ago can cause hahaha I like the 'Unidentified' logo and I have put it on top all movies where somebody else may be able to identify a gun I could not, --PeeWee055 13:19, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

Infoboxes.

I am interested in trying to get the Movie Infobox more widely used on the site. I think that if it is done well it could be very useful on the pages. One of the best features of wikipedia (IMHO) is the infoboxes which give you the basic information at a glace without needing to search the page. I would love some input from people, particularly the admins, regarding how best to make these infoboxes better. I want to make sure that the information they list is useful and valid, not just text filler and puff. Post your thoughts! --Zackmann08 10:51, 16 March 2012 (CDT)

The idea to change the page

The idea to change the page. An example of the new page. The rest of the site will have a basic table.

MP40 Gallery
Error creating thumbnail: File missing MP40 - 9x19mm Error creating thumbnail: File missing MP40 submachine gun - 9x19mm

Specifications

Category	Data
Place of origin	Nazi Germany
Production	1940 - 1944
Manufacturer	Erma Werke
Caliber	9mm
Cartridge	9x19mm Parabellum
Weight	4 kg (8.82 lb)
Length	833 mm (32.8 in) stock extended / 630 mm (24.8 in) stock folded
Barrel length	251 mm (9.9 in)
Rate of fire	500 rounds/min
Effective range	70 m
Feed system	32-round detachable box magazine / 64-round with dual magazines

Do you like someone, such a proposal? It should be applied to each side of the gun?--Mateogala 14:51, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

This is an example of the new layout. It is more clear and transparent. You can change the way every weapon in the service. >>MG81<< How do you like it? --Mateogala 16:03, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

This new format has not been approved and please change your entry in the MG81 into the correct format already established. Please place your suggestion for a change in the MG81 Discussion page. Unfortunately this table is too big and would make the gun pages too cluttered. We also have many different pictures of guns that don't have both sides photographed. --Ben41 19:06, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

New idea to help identify guns

So a while ago I started the Manufacturer pages as a way to help identify guns. I had another idea that I wanted to try on for size with people. Recently, I was working on CSI: Miami - Season 9 and came across a submachine gun that I didn't recognize. I immediately went to the Category: Submachine Gun page but was forced to go through every link trying to find the one that I was looking for.

What do you guys think of adding a gallery of some sort to the Category pages that shows the BASIC models of the guns included? When I say basic I mean that we wouldn't need an image of the MAC-10, MAC-11 and Cobray M11/9. Seeing the basic MAC-10 would be enough to direct you to the MAC-10 page where you can figure out whether the gun you are looking at is in fact a MAC-10 or one of the other variants. Similarly, an image of any one of the MP5s would suffice, we wouldn't need images of each of the variants.

If I can get the okay from at least one admin, I would love to try this out on the Category: Submachine Gun page and see what you all think. :-) (Note that I also posted this in the forum).

--Zackmann08 18:19, 17 March 2012 (CDT)

YOU MUST IMPLEMENT THIS ON ALL THE WEAPON CATEGORY PAGES. Sorry about the caps lock, this is just such an awesome idea, and it turned out so well on the submachine gun page. ManchurianCandidate 18:40, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

HAHAHAHA!!!! I'm glad you liked it. Give a few days, lets get some more reaction but I agree with you, particularly since it doesn't involve creating a new page, its just taking advantage of a page that already exist. --Zackmann08 18:43, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

Another thing that could reduce the time looking at gun images is the creation of new gun categories, like "Pocket Pistol", "Light Machine Gun", "Civilian Rifle", "IAR" and stuff like this. This could help filter the guns more. - bozitojugg3rn4ut 18:02, 19 March 2012 (CDT)

I like that idea. Take a look at how I did the Sniper Rifles page. I split it up by Bolt Action, Semi-Auto and other. I was thinking of doing the same thing when I do the files section with an additional category for Lever action. --Zackmann08 18:33, 19 March 2012 (CDT)

One thing that I am defiantly going to need help with is making sure that these tables stay updated. If and when new guns are added to the site, we need to make sure that they get added to the appropriate tables. If you guys can help me keep an eye on the "Recently Added Pages" section that would be great! Also, I just finished the Shotguns section. I wasn't sure what to do about the 12 Gauge Double Barreled Shotguns page so for now I just left it out of the gallery. Input is welcome! :-) --Zackmann08 12:04, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Maybe you should add a "Dual-Mode" section to the list and place the SPAS-12, SPAS-15, and Benelli M3 there. (Or list them in both pump and semi sections) And semi-auto and full-auto SGs should be separated. - bozitojugg3rn4ut 12:18, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Don't want to over complicate things by adding more categories than are necessary. I did put the SPAS-12 in both but I didnt realized that the SPAS-15 and Benelli M3 also fit under both sections. As for the Submachine Guns, there aren't many that are semi-auto only so let's keep them all together. Plus, that is not a main identifying feature since many "Semi-Auto Only" guns are converted for a movie. The point is to help identify the guns. The fact that a shotgun is Pump-Action vs Semi-Auto is very obvious during a movie and will help in identifying the gun. Also, with the exception of dual mode shotguns such as the SPAS-12, these guns can't be converted (at least not the same way an armorer can convert a semi-auto gun to full-auto). In other words, you will never see a semi-auto Ithaca 37 but you could see a full-auto Steyr SPP. --Zackmann08 13:00, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

I'm in the process of working on the handguns section. I am going to need a LOT of feedback on this and will warn you ahead of time that it is going to be VERY cluttered when it is first uploaded. I think I am up to 5 categories at the moment: Compact, Standard, Long, Target and Other. I may split the "compact" into Pocket and Compact but we'll see what it looks like when I'm done. I'm just doing the code in notepad for the moment so that I can upload it in one move instead of in drips and drabs. Keep the feedback coming! --Zackmann08 12:27, 22 March 2012 (CDT)

Just completed the pistols page. I would love some help checking it. I'm sure there are AT LEAST a few typos. I'm sure i mislabeled an image or something so any help is welcome! --Zackmann08 22:21, 22 March 2012 (CDT)

I propose to add a bookmark with additions to the weapons. Accessories such as scopes, grenade launchers, flashlight. This is to be a gallery through which everyone will be able to recognize included in addition to weapons. All containers in one gallery.--Mateogala 05:18, 23 March 2012 (CDT)

Guns selected for TV and Movies are not realistic

This is a great database and I salute the creators and contributors. But looking through the handguns used in TV and movies, they don't represent what real criminals would be using. In real life we'd see criminals with a lot of Hi-Points; Tauruses; Bersas etc not SIGs;H&K;Kimber;Sphinx;Walther and other expensive handguns. I don't know who is making the selection of handguns for TV and movies but I laugh every time I see a two bit hood in a show who is holding a pricey pistol when in real life he'd probably be carrying some cheap gun with no serial number so he can later ditch it or sell it. Whether it's the prop master or director or producer or if there are kick backs in some way I don't know but it would be nice to see mainly police procedurals use guns that real perps would use.

Again this is not a criticism of the database, you just report what firearms appeared in a series or film. Keep up the good work !Passinby 12:32, 24 March 2012 (CDT)

Actually, it's been determined that criminals prefer to use the best guns they can get their hands on (usually illegally). This means that while a criminal could go buy some Raven Arms piece of shit, they'll probably just break into somebody's home, look for a gun safe, and hope they get lucky with what's inside. Besides, if you're going to commit a crime with a gun, why buy one and get your name in the system at all? ManchurianCandidate 04:37, 24 March 2012 (CDT)

Last data I saw was most illegal weapons were not acquired by theft but on the black market, originally purchased through straw purchases. Forensics labs see all types of guns that are used in crimes, not just top of the line ones. Guns used in crimes often disappear, I don't see most criminals carrying expensive ones that will disappear or get resold after a crime. I'm just pointing out that the handguns in TV and movies are beautiful but if the producers are aiming for realism the weapons don't match the streets.Passinby 12:32, 24 March 2012 (CDT)

I read an ATF report from a few years ago that stated that the most common pistols used in illegal activity were S&W revolvers and automatics, Ruger automatics, and cheap things like Raven Arms, Lorcin and Bryco automatics. --commando552 18:02, 24 March 2012 (CDT)

P226 Beavertail

I am attempting to ID a pistol that is used in multiple seasons of CSI: Miami (Shown Here). It seems that it might be a discontinued variant of a SIG-Sauer P226 known as a "P226 Beavertail". Has anyone heard of such a gun? Better yet, anyone have a picture of such a gun?? --Zackmann08 21:54, 7 April 2012 (CDT)

I already posted this on the talk page for CSI Miami, but I might as well post it here too. The picture on SIG's website under the P220 Beavertail is actually a P226 Beavertail, evidenced by the double stack bulges and P226 written on the grips and slide.----JazzBlackBelt-- 23:10, 7 April 2012 (CDT)

Need some help

I changed the skin for IMFDB to a different skin... and only afterwards realized the there was no way to change it back. Also, the majority of the links and buttons normally present (including discussion page links) are gone. I can't even access my user account to change it back. Can anybody help me out (such as by providing me with a link to the preferences page so I can change the skin back)? ManchurianCandidate 01:43, 8 April 2012 (CDT)

Charles Askins Jr. "Unrepentant Sinner"

I'm sure that several of you know who Charles Askins was. He was controversial and he still is thirteen years after his death. Here is something I found that Massad Ayoob wrote about Askins in 1999. Of course Ayoob is controversial in his own right.

American Handgunner, Nov-Dec, 1999 by Massad Ayoob

The death of Col. Charles Askins, Jr. last year closed a hell-for-leather life that lasted nine decades. He was a national pistol champion, one of the first winners of the Outstanding American Handgunner of the Year Award and a big game hunter with an impressive collection of trophies from all over the world. He aggressively sought out maximum action in his careers, first as a lawman and then as a soldier.

He was also a stone cold killer. For those of us who knew him, there was just no gentler way to put it.

Charlie's contemporary, Bill Jordan, once said that killing your first man is the hardest and after that it gets easier, but for a certain kind of man, it can get too easy. Some thought old Bill was talking about Charlie. Not without reason did Askins title his autobiography Unrepentant Sinner.Any future history of 20th century gunfighters will have to devote a substantial chapter to Cal. Askins. The son of a prominent hunter and gunwriter, Junior followed in Senior's footprints and left some marks deeper than his dad.

Charles Askins, Jr. killed dozens of men, both in war and on the streets. When asked for an official body count, the Colonel replied, "Twenty-seven, not counting [blacks] and Mexicans."

Askins was bright, thoughtful and without fear, but he had a darker side. The man's prejudices spoke for themselves. Charlie once confessed to a friend that he thought he was a psychopathic killer, and that he hunted animals so avidly because he wasn't allowed to hunt men anymore.He was sometimes too willing to kill. A reading of Unrepentant Sinner shows confessions to murder and manslaughter. Yet among the many Askins gunfights, there were also acts of heroism, shootouts against the odds that he won with his coolness under fire and his deadly marksmanship.

He spent a lot of his life teaching assorted Good Guys to win firefights, and when the Final Ledger is tallied, one hopes that is taken into account on the credit side.

Askins learned early that a rifle or shotgun always beats a sidearm when trouble is in the offing. His favorites included the lever action Savage Model 99 in caliber .250/3000. For close work, he was partial to the Remington Model 11, a clone of the Browning 12 gauge Automatic-5, with an extended magazine. Night sights not yet being available, he tied a white bandage around the muzzle to index the weapon in the dark.

Askins put the speed of fire to good use. He wrote of one shootout in east El Paso, where he employed a Winchester .351 semiautomatic carbine:

"One night at the foot of Piedras Street, which runs slapbang into Cordoba Island, a team of Patrol officers watched a gang of smugglers scramble out of the willows in the river bottom and pile their load of liquor into an old Hudson sedan.

"Then the cargadores turned and raced nimbly for the protection of the Mex side of the line. Three cholos piled into the old car and commenced to drive away. The BP vehicle pulled up beside the runner's vehicle and with guns drawn, we motioned the driver to halt."The Hudson came to a stop just as I set foot on the ground. The officer who was in the rear seat also alighted. The driver of the gov't vehicle threw the door open on the left side and hit the ground. He stepped down just as a gunman sitting beside the driver of the old Hudson swung a Model 94 carbine behind the driver's head and let go at the Patrol officer in front.

"He was struck in the head by the .38/55 bullet and fell dead. The bullet broke up in his skull and a major fragment exited and by a strange coincidence struck the patrolman alighting from the back seat in the head. It did not kill him, but knocked him unconscious.

"Thus in the space of two heartbeats and with only a single round, the contrabandista had knocked out two patrolmen and had only myself to contend with.

"I ran round behind the smuggler's car and opened fire. I shot the gunman through the eye, the bullet exiting through his temple. I kept right on firing and shot the driver through the kidneys. He later died. A third smuggler in the back seat cautiously poked a sixshooter up over the back seat and got shot through the hand for his pains.

"By this time I was busy reloading. The gunman, despite the fact that he had a bullet through his right eye which had passed out through his temple, managed to pull the driver from beneath the wheel and with him out of the way, got in the driver's seat and drove the old sedan for a couple of blocks down the street where he crashed it into a tree.

"The Border Patrol in those days, as I have said, had no radio communication. I cranked up the old patrol car, after loading the dead and wounded, and got to a telephone and called Patrol headquarters. Before the night was done the trio, the dead and wounded, were all rounded up. It had been a big evening. I did not feel much regrets over the loss of the patrolman. I had never liked him much anyway. The second lad, who had picked up a jacket fragment, was not seriously hurt."

On another night, Askins used the Remington autoloading shotgun, loaded with the 00 buckshot he called "blue whistlers." He recounted:

"They came out of the shadows and, as it was brightest moonlight, I could see every manjack had a long gun in his hands. We let them get up to within nine paces of us and I fired the first shot.

"I had the old Remington with its 9shot magazine and I knocked down the first two rannies in as many shots. I then switched my attention to the other three who did not like the heat. They ran back into Mexico, a distance of about 60 yards and opened fire.

"An interesting facet of this little exchange was that the lobo in the lead had an old Smith & Wesson .44 Russian. Despite the fact that he had a load of my 00 buckshot through his middle and one of the boys had hit him spang on the breastbone with a .351 slug, he dropped to his knees behind a cottonwood sapling and kept right on shooting.

"The .44 Russian is a single-action and this bravo had to thumb the hammer back for each shot. He got off three rounds before a second charge of my buckshot ended his career,

"Quite as interesting, really, was the second gunman who had a Westley Richards 10 gauge loaded with Winchester High Speed #5 shot. We had killed him before he could touch off either barrel. A most happy circumstance since the distance between both parties was only nine steps. I have the Westley Richards today, a memento of lively times long past."

Today, Johnnie Cochran would be hired by the families of the deceased to sue Charlie and the whole Border Patrol for opening fire on the heavily armed gang without warning. Yet doing as they did undoubtedly saved multiple Patrolmen from being killed or maimed. As the saying goes, "Things were different then."

Weapon retention is the art and science of retaining control of your firearm when a criminal tries to disarm you and turn your firearm against you. Plan A is to execute a technique and peel the offender off the gun. If that can't be achieved, Plan B is to shoot him.

There wasn't much in the way of gun retention techniques in Charlie's time, and Plan B was his Plan A. He made it work more than once. He recounted the following in our American Handgunner Annual in 1988:

"I got to my feet and made a run at this coyote and just as I reached him, I tripped and fell down. This bastardo, as quick as a cat , grabbed my gun, which I had drawn, and standing over me commenced to tussle enthusiastically to get it away.

"I had no illusions as to what he'd do if he succeeded. He had thoughtfully wrapped his hands around the cylinder and while I had my finger on the trigger I could not fire the weapon because he would not permit the cylinder to turn.

"Very energetically I rolled up on my shoulders and kicked this sonofabitch in the belly. It broke him loose from my pistol. He wasted no time. He ran for the river which was only 30 steps away. I saw him very clearly against all the lights of Juarez and I let him run until he was in the Old Rio Grande up to his knees.

"I held the gold bead front sight in the white-outlined rear notch and put the gold right in his back just at the belt line. On the shot he pitched forward as though spanked with a baseball bat.

"Three days later the BP Chief told me, 'They dragged a dead Mex out of the river of the Socorro Headgates yesterday. The U.S. Consul in Juarez told me.' I didn't say anything. I wasn't any too proud of the fact that I had stumbled and the wetback had almost killed me with my own gun. (A customized Colt New Service .44-40.)"

The colonel continued, in the same issue of the magazine:

"One chill evening, it was January 1931, we jumped out a big gang of smugglers in the Standpipes district. We halted them on the levee and I ran up to the bunch and some bravo reached out and caught the old Remington by the muzzle and gave it a hell of a jerk. He aimed to catch me by surprise and get my gun, which you may be sure he'd have reversed in a twinkling and given me a dose of those big 00 pellets.

"He jerked on the muzzle and I jerked on the forestock and the pistol grip. As I gave the gun a hell of a tug, I pulled the trigger. The charge of buckshot got this coyote right through the left eye. The force lifted him completely off his feet and pitched him some four to five feet off the levee. The back of his head was quite a mess.

"I reckon I was just too impetuous in those days, for it wasn't three months later until we ran up on another gang of freebooters, this time near the Nichols Packing Plant. I got too close to the leader and he grabbed my gun muzzle and tried to whip it out of my hands. He jerked in his direction and I jerked in mine-- and I pulled the trigger.

"The nine big slugs took him right above the knee. The City-County Hospital took his leg off the next morning. The worthless scoundrel had syphilis and the last I heard the amputation would not heal. I reckon it sorta put an end to his river hopping."

Charlie's actions in the two shotgun grabs would almost certainly be ruled justifiable even today. The shooting of the fleeing man who had grabbed his Colt revolver unsuccessfully, however, would probably be seen as excessive force in light of the Supreme Court's mid-'80s Garner decision.

Askins had no patience with suspects who grabbed police guns. One of his partners was pistol-whipped almost to death by a hobo who had disarmed him of his Colt 1917 .45 revolver. The patrolman had already sustained multiple skull fractures and brain damage from the clubbed revolver when Askins stopped the assault.

At a distance of 10 paces, he killed the assailant with three shots in the chest, double-action, from his pet .4440 New Service 4" with D.W. King sights, the weapon the previously mentioned suspect tried to take from him near Juarez.

When he was actively in the field, Askins seems to have almost always fired the sidearm one-handed. In his later years he would enthusiastically recommend two-handed positions for defense, but he was not an early advocate of the concept.

It would appear that in most of his shootings, Askins aimed rather than pointed. He practiced a good deal, drawing and firing from the point-shooter's crouch position, but practiced more with a sight picture at arm's length for the matches.

He wrote that during one 10 year period, he logged 334,000 practice shots. Though in some articles late in his career he had good things to say about point-shooting, I can find mention of only two such incidents in his personal reminiscences of gunfights.

One was a mistaken identity shooting in which he exchanged shots in an alley with a rifle-armed U.S. Customs agent. The distance was 10 yards. The man with the rifle fired twice and missed both times. Askins also fired twice; one shot missed, and one struck the other man's rifle stock.

He point-fired because he had to: his gun that night was a Colt New Service .45 sixgun, its barrel chopped to two inches with no front sight.

He would write later, "To say that I took a ribbing was an understatement compared to the comments over firing two shots at another feller at 30 feet, down a narrow alley, and missing him. It was a disgrace which took a long time to live down!"

Charlie later mentioned that he had point-shot without a specific sight picture when he shot the man who was pistol-whipping his brother officer. Reading Askins' own account, he seems mildly surprised that he hit him shooting like that.

He wrote, "Each time one of the big flat-nosed 240 grain slugs hit him, it brought forth a little puff of dust. This 'bo had been riding the freight for several days and his clothing was full of dust. I cannot begin to tell you how happy it made me to see those bullets raise that dust! I knew I had him. It made my day, believe me!"

A southpaw, Askins liked ambidextrous autoloaders and lever actions for long guns-- the Savage Model 99, the .351 Winchester and the 12 ga. Remington. The latter, he said, was cut to 22 barrel length for him by J. D. Buchanan, who also affixed a full length extended magazine that held eight shells, bringing total capacity to nine rounds.

For a time when it first came out, Askins carried a 4" Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum in a Berns-Martin breakfront holster, although I can find no mention in his work of him ever using it in a gun-fight. Virtually all his shootings with handguns found him using one or another Colt; not until the very end of his man-killing days would he shoot a human with a Smith & Wesson.

Askins began his law-enforcement career as a forest ranger, using a stock GI 1911 .45 auto swapped from his lifelong best friend George Parker. "It was stamped 'U.S. Property' and had been purloined from the ordnance stores at Fort Huachucha," Charlie later admitted. He wore it in a Sam Myres holster. This was also his first sidearm when he joined the Border Patrol, but he quickly switched to a Colt New Service .44-40 with 4" barrel.

The large-frame Colt double-action was always an Askins favorite. The sawed-off snubnose version he had acquired for plainclothes wear quickly fell out of his favor when, sans sights, he fortunately missed the two shots he fired in the mistaken identity incident.

The same big gun in its long-barreled .38 Special target format, the Shooting Master, was Askins' choice in the centerfire class of bullseye pistol, the discipline in which he captured 534 medals, 117 trophies and the National Championship of the United States. When he became chief firearms instructor for the Border Patrol, he again showed his preference, though his choice of caliber was surprising. He wrote:

"As the Great Depression eased some-what, the Border Patrol at my insistence purchased new revolvers for the entire service. I had small love for the Smith & Wesson, a dislike which I share to this day, and so I elected the Colt New Service in .38 Spl. caliber. The revolver had a 4" barrel, fixed sight and a square butt.

"There were 642 revolvers purchased, at a cost to the U.S. Gov't of $19 each. I had the entire shipment sent to me in El Paso. I shot each revolver and sighted it in. The sights were all the fixed type, the front sight was a great upstanding chunk of metal and the rear sight was a rectangular notch cut into the top strap. I made a tool to bend the front sight either right or left to bring the gun to zero, I filed down the front sight if the gun shot low and filled (sic) the rear notch if it shot high."

In the .22 events, Askins shot a Colt Woodsman auto with a lead weight under the barrel. In the .45 category, his choice was a Colt Government tuned by the same "Buck" Buchanan who had tuned his shotgun and was now working for the legendary Frank Pachmayr.

In the national individual championship, an externally-stocked GI .45 was required, and Askins used one that Buchanan and Pachmayr had internally accurized and fitted with a 4 lb. trigger.

This was one of the guns he took with him to the European Theater in World War II. He swapped between it and his personal New Service .38, that one fitted with a King sight rib and a cutaway trigger guard. He shot men with both guns.

He used 230 gr. ball in the .45 and Winchester's slow 200 gr. Super Police roundnose lead in the .38. Askins believed that an accurate handgun with a smooth action, sighted to point-of-aim, point-of-impact, made the most sense as a defensive sidearm.

Based on his autobiography, the last man he killed was in 1957. Charlie was a U.S. military advisor in Vietnam. While hunting in the jungle one day, he ran across a Viet Minh soldier. Askins was carrying a Savage .358 lever action rifle (with which he had blown away a couple of other Viet Minh who interrupted his hunting on another occasion) but chose to draw his new Smith & Wesson Model 29 and fire it left hand only.

"I let the ambusher have the first 240 gr. slug right through the ribs on the left side. It was probably the first man ever killed with the .44 because it was quite new in those days," Askins observed casually. He finished the man with a second shot to the throat.

In his later life- I got to know him in the early 1970s--he told me he generally carried one or another single-action .45 auto. At one time Charlie was quite partial to the small, lightweight Star PD.

I knew Charlie Askins as a man who was fun to drink with, but a man you wouldn't want to get drunk with. He was an adoring husband and father, a lover of horses and a sucker for stray dogs. When his many fans wrote him, he answered them promptly and (usually) politely. Perhaps it was a natural compensation for the part of him that went beyond survival euphoria in the pleasure he took after killing a man.

I've heard people comment, "Whatever else you say about Askins, he sure didn't suffer from that 'post shooting trauma stuff." I beg to differ.

One of the virtually inescapable things in the aftermath of killing is what Dr. Walter Gorski defined as "Mark of Cain" syndrome. This is the sense that having killed people has changed the way that others look at you, and the way you look at yourself.There is no doubt that this was true of Charles Askins. The men he had killed, and the gunfights he survived, defined him in a very real way. Not just to others, but to himself. You didn't have to know him and talk to him to see it. It was inescapably visible in the body of his written work.

There were facets of Charlie that I wouldn't want in a cop. There was racism. There was a killer instinct, too strong, strong enough to sometimes slip its leash. Some of his shootings, if they'd been adjudicated, could have earned him "life without parole." Yet Charlie was also the man who first organized firearms training in the Border Patrol, laying a foundation that sees that agency today as one of the world's leaders in law enforcement gunfight survival. His tenacity, his courage, his coolness and above all his skill at arms are qualities we can all strive to emulate, though few of us will manifest them to the degree that he did. Let that be the legacy of Col. Charles Askins, Jr. May he rest in peace.

A somewhat different perspective on Askins

July 2008 issue of Tactical Weapons by Cameron Hopkins

Col. Charles Askins

The fact that Askins named his autobiography Unrepentant Sinner pretty much says it all. When his lifelong best friend, George Parker, was dying of cancer, Askins handed him a .45 auto. Parker shot himself, allowing Askins to brag that he helped his friend “do the manly thing.”

While most of his kills were racked up during his days with the Border Patrol along the Rio Grand River in his native Texas, Col. Askins added to his tally in World War II when he served as a battlefield recovery officer.

Askins rode the river for the U.S. Border Patrol in the lawless “gangster era” of the 1920s and ’30s. His numerous gunfights with contrabandistas and other criminals of the El Paso region are vividly detailed in his autobiography.

The son of Maj. Charles Askins, a noted gunwriter of the day, Charley Junior was born to guns. His old man was perhaps one of the best shotgun shooters of his day, a gifted wingshooter and an avid upland bird hunter. Charley inherited his Old Man’s mantle as a storyteller par excellence, but there was a darker side to Junior’s sagas.

Askins was one of the first recipients of the Outstanding American Handgunner Award. He was a national champion pistol shot. He won the centerfire event with what would be contested as an illegal pistol, but in typical Askins fashion, immediately after firing the winning score he resigned from the Border Patrol Pistol Team so he could go out a champion.

Knowing guns as well as he did, Askins was keenly cognizant of the handling characteristics of the best fighting guns of his time, as well as the terminal ballistics of their cartridges. He fully appreciated the firepower of self-loading weapons and favored a Remington Model 11 self-loading 12 ga., a clone of the Browning Auto-5.

Askins’ war stories were full of details on the guns he favored for combat. He was a master storyteller and his vivid descriptions of gunning down armed and unarmed criminals alike made for riveting reading in the days before political correctness made such confessions impossible.

All’s Fair In War Always a gamesman when it came to winning at any cost, Askins cheated in gunfights as well as pistol competitions. Once, during World War II when the Allies were set to cross the Rhine into Germany, his unit was stymied on one side of the river while a bedraggled remnant of the Nazi army was facing them, dug in on the German side of the river.

As stalemates tend to go, both sides grew complacent. Askins noticed that every morning at a particular time, a fat German sergeant made his way to a particular bush near the river and squatted for his morning constitutional. This gave Askins an idea.

He found a suitable two-story house with a clear line of sight on the bush and set up a sofa and table in a second story window. He borrowed a range finder from an artillery battery and ranged the bush from the window, a bit over 800 yards. He then found a Garand that was reputed to be more accurate than most and commandeered a Jeep to drive himself to the rear. There, he set up a target using the range finder at the exact distance as the bush was from his house. He zeroed the Garand to be dead-on at that distance. The next morning, Askins and his Garand were sandbagged when the “fat Kraut” made his way to his usual bush. Once he settled down to his business, Askins centered him on his front sight and squeezed the trigger. Killing doesn’t get any more cold-blooded than that, even if it was done under the color of war in a “legitimate” sense.

Years later, in the late ‘50s, Askins hired himself to Vietnam as a military advisor to the South Vietnamese. Askins had one of the then-new Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum revolvers and was determined to kill the first man with the big magnum.

His opportunity came when he was out on patrol with a few South Vietnamese soldiers, set to ambush some communist infiltrators. Askins gave the word that no one was to fire until he did and he waited patiently until the small column of men had passed. At the right moment, he stepped out into the trail and shot the last man in line. Askins was delighted by the huge revolver’s performance, lifting the body off his feet. He was equally pleased to proclaim that he was the first to kill a man with a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum.

Combat Training Focusing on what works in a gunfight, Askins learned to tie a white handkerchief on the muzzle of his shotgun to better see it at night. To better train for moving targets, Askins rigged up a target stand on two clothes lines and had a youngster run back and forth, tugging the target so he could fire. He practiced shooting from awkward positions, on horseback and on the ground, all to better simulate the realities of gunfighting.

Askins was one of the first to pioneer the concept of training the way we fight, with man-shaped targets and rapid fire drills instead of bullseyes and slow fire. Today we accept “reality based” training as just obvious, but in Askins’ day, firearms training was based on bullseye-shooting techniques.

IMDB Links

First of all, please forgive me if this was previously discussed and decided against, but what do people think of adding a link to the IMDB page for Actors? So for example of the Bruce Willis page there would be a link to Bruce Willis (IMDB). Any thoughts? --Zackmann08 15:27, 20 April 2012 (CDT)

I've done that before. See Ken Takakura and Monte Walsh (2002). There is nothing in the rules that says you can't do that and I like links to more in-depth sites. Actually you're the first person who has even brought it up as far as I know. --Jcordell 16:24, 20 April 2012 (CDT)

I don't think anyone has brought that up, but that's a really good idea! I'm suprised someone hasn't thought of it sooner.----JazzBlackBelt-- 16:35, 20 April 2012 (CDT)

Spoilers

I have created a new template to indicate spoilers. As stated in the Rules, Standards & Principles, spoilers should be avoided at all cost! Sometimes, however, they are unavoidable. When that is the case, it is good practice to warn readers before they start reading the page. The template is super easy to use. Check it out! (Spoiler Template). I will state again so that it is super clear, SPOILERS SHOULD BE AVOIDED AT ALL COST! The use of this template DOES NOT mean that it is okay to include major spoilers just because you warned the reader. The template simply helps warn the reader of UNAVOIDABLE spoilers. --Zackmann08 12:21, 25 April 2012 (CDT)

Another New Template

I have created another new template (Template:Ongoing). This is for use for TV shows that are currently on the air. So for example CSI: NY - Season 8 or Top Shot - Season 4. It is way of saying "this page is continuously being updated and may not be current" and differentiates from the WorkInProgress Template which should be used for pages that someone is working on at this very moment to improve. I have added a picture to the template that is certainly subject to change BUT anyone changes it, lets come to a consensus on what the new image should be. I started a discussion thread about it HERE. --Zackmann08 10:38, 27 April 2012 (CDT)

What if only an image of a gun but not the gun itself appears in the movie?

I have a question: if an image of some gun is shown in the movie (as photo, drawing or a fragment of some other movie) but the gun itself never appeared, will it be correct to put this gun on the movie page? For example, on the following screenshot from For a Cop's Hide we see a poster with four revolvers.

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

Is that enough to put these revolvers (they are supposed to be early S&W models) on the movie page? - Greg-Z 13:14, 1 May 2012 (CDT)

No. Its not. The gun itself should appear (IMHO). Particularly when its hard to tell what the guns are. It would be one thing if it was clear EXACTLY what model of gun it was but there is no way to tell from these pictures. --Zackmann08 14:08, 1 May 2012 (CDT)

I agree, but no one seems to have objected in the past. --Funkychinaman 14:12, 1 May 2012 (CDT)

Well that is a video game, not a film. But still, I don't think it should be included. --Zackmann08 15:41, 1 May 2012 (CDT)

I think as a general rule they should be included. The purpose of the site is so that when someone sees something in a show or movie they can come here to find out what it is, on matter what format it appears in. As long as it is identifiable as a specific gun I say include it. --commando552 17:39, 1 May 2012 (CDT)

SORRY commando552 I have railed against this like a maniac for years. Just a PICTURE of a gun that is incidental in a scene DOES NOT QUALIFY and does not have to be included. It is ridiculous and also, people who have seen it have laughed at it. So no. I don't want IMFDB to become a laughing stock, thank you very much :) We've been accused of having Asperger's Syndrome in media before. This would cement that stereotype. :D MoviePropMaster2008

Maybe such items (pictures, stock footage etc.) are qualified for Trivia section? Or they must not appear at all? Greg-Z 00:47, 29 May 2012 (CDT)

I'd have to disagree there; if the picture is an identifiable weapon rather than just a generic Elmer Fudd drawing, people might want to know what type of weapon it is. The internet accuses anyone who knows anything about anything of having Asperger's sooner or later, you just have to roll with it. Besides, we have pages for media that consist entirely of drawings. Evil Tim 00:59, 29 May 2012 (CDT)

And I disagree with you :D People push the envelope all the time. If it's OBVIOUS and "In your face" in the shot, then perhaps. See this example that I put in [[1]] because it was front and center of the screen. You couldn't help but notice it. But casual posters or graphics on distant walls? No. NO one will wonder about a fleeting glimpse of a gun safety poster in the back wall of a police station. And I'm a bit surprised at you. ;) Equating this sort of appearance with Anime is not really honest. LOL. :) MoviePropMaster2008

Well, like I said below you should be reasonable about it, but if someone might concievably want to know what type of gun is visible in a shot, we should tell them. Obviously if it's something so small that only someone looking very carefully at a still frame would notice it at all that's different, but I find these kinds of incidental shots just show the uploader has done a complete job. I guess it applies more in videogames where you can often be as close to or as far away from the poster as you like, but I always thought a good guideline was not to worry about how a weapon appears in something as long as it does. Evil Tim 01:15, 29 May 2012 (CDT)

But here is a classic case. You can't get any closer to the poster to positively identify WHAT the guns are. I think they are H&R revolvers, since I have two which look just like they do. But if WE (as in IMFDB) can't positively identify them with reasonable certainty (and in this case we cannot), then we aren't offering any sort of service at all, are we? MoviePropMaster2008

Yeah...It's troublesome because they're clearly there in that shot but it would look weird having an entry purely to say we don't know what they are. I think I'd agree with you that this one shouldn't be included, I was just speaking in more general terms (and as usual as someone who mostly does game pages where a poster might be a photograph and therefore more real than the weapons that are actually in the game :D). Evil Tim 01:28, 29 May 2012 (CDT)

As for what these are, they look more like Colt New Line 38 Caliber Revolvers than early S&Ws to me. --commando552 17:48, 1 May 2012 (CDT)

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

I think what matters is if you can ID it positively, not how or where it appears. The acid test is if people will say "what gun is that?" and people will still say "what gun is on that poster?" Evil Tim 20:25, 1 May 2012 (CDT)

Another New Template

So I have another new template to report! This one (Convert) is a unit converter. It allows you to input specs for a gun without having to use Google or another form of unit conversion. There is NO need to go back and put this on gun pages where both the Metric and "Standard" values are already listed. But for new pages, or pages that only have 1 of the two values, this template can be used. I welcome any and all feedback! :-) --Zackmann08 22:43, 2 May 2012 (CDT)

Yet ANOTHER new template

I am just going nuts with these templates. :-) We now have the Template:IMDB Actor which will allow you to create a link to an actors IMDB page. I welcome feedback on this and all the other templates. --Zackmann08 12:24, 10 May 2012 (CDT)

Row span or Not..

Whats the deal with using Row-Span... Personally I think it makes the tables more confusing because the boxes are no longer uniform... Whats the rule here? Should we use them when possible or avoid them? --Zackmann08 19:22, 12 May 2012 (CDT)

A Category for Biographical Movie

I suggest to make a new category "Biographical Movie" for the movies that describe the life of famous persons. This idea came to me when creating a page for Young Winston. Here are more movies that fit to this category, of course. What do you think about it? Greg-Z 04:58, 28 May 2012 (CDT)

Error

When I try to make a new page, I get this Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 67108864 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 4053 bytes) in /home/imfdb/public_html/w/includes/media/Bitmap.php on line 213 What the shit? BeardedHoplite 20:56, 28 May 2012 (CDT)

Must be you. I made a test page here: [[2]] though I don't have a ton of info on it, I made it just to test the new page capability. MoviePropMaster2008 23:47, 28 May 2012 (CDT)

How to list color variations of guns

This is a question I have had for a while. Say that a standard pistol as well as a different color variation appear in the same movie/TV show. What is the preferred way to list that? In the past, I have always had one section for both, with a picture of each variation under the same heading (such as here). However, I have seen some pages with seperate headings for each (here), as well as one section with subheadings (here). So, which is the preferred way to list them?----JazzBlackBelt-- 01:51, 31 May 2012 (CDT)

Unidentified Guns

Just a reminder to anyone here who is particularly good at recognizing guns, there is a new category for pages that have Unidentified weapons. Category:Unidentified. Check out these pages and help if you can! --Zackmann08 13:51, 6 June 2012 (CDT)

Sterling 22LR pistol in Taxi Driver

Was looking at the picture when Travis is shooting his guns at the range, picture shows a Sterling 22LR pistol but it's a Galesi 22LR pistol. Both pistol are look alike but they do have distinctive grips.

Wikipedia

Hey guys. I am going to attempt to add an entry for IMFDB to Wikipedia. The page was previously deleted because it was poorly done. Is there anyone who would be interested in helping to contribute? Every little bit helps... I want to get a bunch of stuff together BEFORE I add the page so that it doesn't get deleted right away. Anyone interested feel free to post on my talk page! Also, if anyone can find any press attention that the site has received that would be super helpful! --Zackmann08 13:04, 7 June 2012 (CDT)

If I recall, older incarnations of the page were killed for relevance reasons. I'm not sure if there's anything we can do about that. --Funkychinaman 13:23, 7 June 2012 (CDT)

I spoke with the admin who killed it last time (over a year ago). He said that the previous incarnation failed to explain its significance. I think its safe to say the site has grown considerably since then... He also said that if we can demonstrate its significance it would stick around. --Zackmann08 13:31, 7 June 2012 (CDT)

How are they defining significance? It seems so subjective. What other wikis have made it onto wikipedia? --Funkychinaman 13:42, 7 June 2012 (CDT)

Here is a list: List of Wikis (I just added IMFDB to it). --Zackmann08 13:54, 7 June 2012 (CDT)

Table Text Alignment

Is there a particular reason that text hasn't been aligned "centered" in tables?? Seems like it would look much better... --Zackmann08 17:49, 14 June 2012 (CDT)

"Bollywood" Category

When I went to add the production nationalities for the Dredd page I just made I needed to add British and Indian. However, in the Produced/Filmed categories there is only the "Bollywood" category. I sure as hell would not call this a Bollywood film, so what am I meant to use? I think there should be an Indian Produced/Filmed category for films like this, but should it replace the Bollywood one or leave that separate? I know you can't redirect categories if it was decided to replace it, but there are only a dozen or so in the category so would be easy to do it manually. --commando552 18:49, 21 June 2012 (CDT)

Agreed. "Bollywood" only addressed a particular aspect of Indian cinema anyway. --Funkychinaman 08:01, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

Ammunition list ?

I can make a list of ammunition ?

1 - What do you mean? Clarify your remarks with more detailed descriptions of what you want to achieve and 2 - SIGN your posts. Anonymous postings tend to carry less weight because they are usually NOOBS that do it. Thanks. MoviePropMaster2008

How does this help us ID guns in movies? --Funkychinaman 14:24, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

I can haz cheeze burger? :-) --Zackmann08 16:12, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

I have agree with chinaman on this on though how about having it for a category Mr.Ice 18:05, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

There are some scenes in movies where the magazines/cylinders are shown with rounds in them. I suppose it might help in those cases, but not much for anything else. While it might be cool, it doesn't help identify firearms in a significant manner. If the mag is shown, you can probably find a (better) shot of the actual gun.----JazzBlackBelt-- 18:32, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

In my experience, if you see loose ammunition, it rarely goes with the gun anyway. --Funkychinaman 19:12, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

This, then, do such a site or not? --MTOOO 05:05, 25 June 2012 (CDT)

My Example

Pistol/ Revolver Cartridges

Caliber .38, .380, .357, .35 (9 mm)

Cartridge
Error creating thumbnail: File missing .357 MAGNUM Error creating thumbnail: File missing 9x18mm MAKAROV Error creating thumbnail: File missing 9x19mm NATO (PARABELLUM)

Revolver
Error creating thumbnail: File missing Colt King Cobra - .357 MAGNUM Error creating thumbnail: File missing Colt Magnum Carry - .357 MAGNUM Error creating thumbnail: File missing Colt Python - .357 MAGNUM Error creating thumbnail: File missing Taurus Model 617 - .357 MAGNUM

Caliber .45 (11.45 mm)

Cartridge
Error creating thumbnail: File missing .45 ACP Error creating thumbnail: File missing .45 COLT Error creating thumbnail: File missing .45 GAP

Pistol
Error creating thumbnail: File missing M1911A1 - .45 ACP Error creating thumbnail: File missing FNP-45 - .45 ACP Error creating thumbnail: File missing FNP-45 Tactical - .45 ACP Error creating thumbnail: File missing Glock 21 - .45 ACP

Submachine Guns
Error creating thumbnail: File missing M3 / M3A1 "Grease Gun" - .45 ACP Error creating thumbnail: File missing MAC-10 - .45 ACP Error creating thumbnail: File missing Heckler & Koch UMP - .45 ACP Error creating thumbnail: File missing Heckler & Koch USC - .45 ACP

--MTOOO 08:12, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

I want to upload images in movie for my page

How do i can upload images in movie for my page ? What should i do now ? Please tell what you know. Thanks !

or you do it for me.

Or, you do it yourself. Yeah, let's go with that. --Funkychinaman 14:16, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

Can you...?

Can you create these pages ? These movies are great movies:

1.Shanghai (2010)

2.The Flowers of War (2011)

3.Halloween II (2009)

4.Friday the 13th (2009)

5.See No Evil (2006)

6.Oba: The Last Samurai (2011)

7.Terror Trap (2010)

8.The Quiet American (2002)

9.What Love May Bring (2010)

10.Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa (2008)

11.Spoils of War (2009)

12.In Tranzit (2008)

13.Max Manus: Man of War (2008)

14.The Keeper (2009)

15.Born to Raise Hell (2010)

Special: Pink Panther (Animated Series) and Old Master Q (Chinese Comics).

Jack Reacher

I'm not sure what the rifle Jack Reacher is seen firing in the trailer. Here's a screenshot. --Ben41 02:18, 7 July 2012 (CDT)

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

Kind of a guess as you barely see it, but I would say it is a SIG P556 SWAT upper on a SG 550 series lower, which has appeared in a few things but most prominently in Salt:

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

It clearly has a SIG gas block and bayonet lug, but it looks like the front slide slopes backwards (along with the same flip up rear peep sight) and it has a birdcage flash hider. --commando552 04:37, 7 July 2012 (CDT)

Collapsible Tables

This is an important note to ALL users. We are in the process of testing out a new idea of collapsible tables. For the time being, DO NOT implement this on any pages! This is a test that the admins are considering using on SOME pages. If you would like to weigh in on the discussion, you should feel free to do so here in the forum. But I say again, DO NOT use this on any pages until the admins come to an agreement. --Zackmann08 11:05, 7 July 2012 (CDT)

Percussion Pistols?

Should we have a page for percussion pistols, like we have a page for Flintlock Pistols? They have appeared in stuff but currently there is no place to list them. --commando552 04:37, 14 July 2012 (CDT)

imfdb on facebook

Did you guys notice the fan art logo of imfdb on facebook? I don't know who made it but it looks pretty badass. [3] - bozitojugg3rn4ut 10:32, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Trailer Park Boys

I've been visiting this site for couple of years now and yet I have not seen a page for neither the movie(s) or the show.

If you want a page for this, go ahead and make it, don't expect others to do it for you and sign your posts.--SmithandWesson36 17:38, 13 August 2012 (CDT)

A page did exist, but was deleted for poor quality. Some users are working on it. --Funkychinaman 17:44, 13 August 2012 (CDT)

Army of Two: The Devil's Cartel

Can someone help me make a page for this? I can fill in the blanks but the framework for the page is hard for me to set up (my HTML sucks), there is plenty of INGAME footage from the Gamescom gameplay trailer as well as their website.--A single bullet can change history 13:00, 15 August 2012 (CDT)

If you need help with editing, you can copy and paste from existing pages, or refer to the [[Help:Editing|help] page. On a personal note, I'm a bit reluctant to help create another page for a console-only game that I'm almost certain will remain incomplete for years to come. Getting screenscaps from a console-only game (like AoT:tDC) require extra equipment and expertise that very few users here have, and it'd be unfair to toss this into their lap to finish. But that's just my two cents. --Funkychinaman 13:18, 15 August 2012 (CDT)

Ok, this is a standard form, though I do think a console-only game isn't a great thing to start with. Don't copy the nowiki tags or the one br line seperator, obviously:

[[Image:BoxArt.jpg|thumb|right|300px|''NAME OF GAME'' (DATE)]]

'''''NAME OF GAME''''' is a (short description of the game)

'''The following weapons are used in the video game ''NAME OF GAME'':'''

=Class of weapons=

==A weapon==

[[A weapon]] is used by men to do things in a level.

(repeat)

[[Category:Some Categories]]

Evil Tim 13:20, 15 August 2012 (CDT)

@@ Line 916: / Line 916: @@
 Can someone help me make a page for this? I can fill in the blanks but the framework for the page is hard for me to set up (my HTML sucks), there is plenty of INGAME footage from the Gamescom gameplay trailer as well as their website.--[[User:Valant|A single bullet can change history]] 13:00, 15 August 2012 (CDT)
 :If you need help with editing, you can copy and paste from existing pages, or refer to the [[Help:Editing|help] page. On a personal note, I'm a bit reluctant to help create another page for a console-only game that I'm almost certain will remain incomplete for years to come. Getting screenscaps from a console-only game (like AoT:tDC) require extra equipment and expertise that very few users here have, and it'd be unfair to toss this into their lap to finish. But that's just my two cents. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 13:18, 15 August 2012 (CDT)
+Ok, this is a standard form, though I do think a console-only game isn't a great thing to start with. Don't copy the nowiki tags or the one br line seperator, obviously:
+<nowiki>{{Template:Upcoming}}</nowiki>
+<nowiki>[[Image:BoxArt.jpg|thumb|right|300px|''NAME OF GAME'' (DATE)]]</nowiki>
+<nowiki>'''''NAME OF GAME'''''</nowiki> is a (short description of the game)
+<nowiki>'''The following weapons are used in the video game ''NAME OF GAME'':'''</nowiki>
+<nowiki>=Class of weapons=</nowiki>
+<nowiki>==A weapon==</nowiki>
+<nowiki>[[A weapon]]</nowiki> is used by men to do things in a level.
+<nowiki>[[Image:Gun Image.jpg|thumb|none|400px|The real gun's name - calibre]]</nowiki><br>
+<nowiki>[[Image:Screenshot.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Description of the screenshot.]]</nowiki>
+(repeat)
+<nowiki>[[Category:Some Categories]]</nowiki>
+[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 13:20, 15 August 2012 (CDT)

Talk:Main Page: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 18:20, 15 August 2012

Thunderheart

Team America: World Police

New or original gun names?

Sortable Tables

Merry Christmas!

Gun Brands Pages

Battle Los Angeles

Gun Page Templates

Specifications

I can't create a new thread in the forum

I think it's time to end the silencer/suppressor debate

NCIS: LA gun change?

Single or Double-Stack 1911?

Novel guns?

Manufacturer Pages

Glock Manufacturer's Page

Taurus

Beretta

Proper name for CZ

A question about a bolt

Site Policy On 'Made Up' Weapons

Gun Title Template

Gangster Squad

How do i add upload an image here?

Fictional Airsoft Guns

Naming conventions for SIG guns

Television wikitable

Sako vs SAKO

Companies w/ one single product

Featured Articles

Wannabe Indie game dev has some questions

Top Shot

SOCOM 4

CSI

New "Current" template

New category: "Containing Unidentified Firearm"?

Infoboxes.

The idea to change the page

Specifications

New idea to help identify guns

Guns selected for TV and Movies are not realistic

P226 Beavertail

Need some help

Charles Askins Jr. "Unrepentant Sinner"

A somewhat different perspective on Askins

IMDB Links

Spoilers

Another New Template

What if only an image of a gun but not the gun itself appears in the movie?

Another New Template

Yet ANOTHER new template

Row span or Not..

A Category for Biographical Movie

Error

How to list color variations of guns

Unidentified Guns

Sterling 22LR pistol in Taxi Driver

Wikipedia

Table Text Alignment

"Bollywood" Category

Ammunition list ?

My Example

Pistol/ Revolver Cartridges

Caliber .38, .380, .357, .35 (9 mm)

Caliber .45 (11.45 mm)

I want to upload images in movie for my page

Can you...?

Jack Reacher

Collapsible Tables

Percussion Pistols?

imfdb on facebook

Trailer Park Boys

Army of Two: The Devil's Cartel

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