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Talk:Collateral: Difference between revisions
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Those mag carriers are nice, Got 3 of them because of this movie and love them.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC) | Those mag carriers are nice, Got 3 of them because of this movie and love them.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC) | ||
What mag carriers are those? | |||
According the the HKPro forums, a member contacted Mick Gould, the firearms instructor for the film, about the holster. The holster he used in training was a example of a Yaqui Slide type holster. But, the holster in the film was custom made, and Cruise kept it after filming. I can add some credit to this, as I've searched through almost every hoslter maker with a website, and found nothing even remotely similar. But, of course, this is the internet, and people can say whatever they want.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:39, 4 August 2011 (CDT) | According the the HKPro forums, a member contacted Mick Gould, the firearms instructor for the film, about the holster. The holster he used in training was a example of a Yaqui Slide type holster. But, the holster in the film was custom made, and Cruise kept it after filming. I can add some credit to this, as I've searched through almost every hoslter maker with a website, and found nothing even remotely similar. But, of course, this is the internet, and people can say whatever they want.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:39, 4 August 2011 (CDT) | ||
Revision as of 04:31, 9 December 2011
Colt 9mm SMG
Can't speak to it's use in the US but Mexican tourist police carry them. - Nyles
- They are issued to DEA agents from what I know. Some police stations are issued them as well. -GM
- If you ever find pictures of Department of Energy security teams from immediately after 9/11, you will see quite a few of these in use. As best I know, though, they've mostly replaced their 9mm subguns with M4s, same as most LE tactical units nowadays. -MT2008 16:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Vincent's Holster
With many people wondering what Vincent's holster is, I took some shots to help everyone out.
Hope this helps someone I.D. them. - Gunmaster45
It sure helped me ID that Tom Cruise wore some tight freaking pants!
According to the DVD commentary, Tom Cruise used a serpa holster for the USP. So maybe he used one for the movie as well.
Those mag carriers are nice, Got 3 of them because of this movie and love them.--FIVETWOSEVEN 21:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
What mag carriers are those?
According the the HKPro forums, a member contacted Mick Gould, the firearms instructor for the film, about the holster. The holster he used in training was a example of a Yaqui Slide type holster. But, the holster in the film was custom made, and Cruise kept it after filming. I can add some credit to this, as I've searched through almost every hoslter maker with a website, and found nothing even remotely similar. But, of course, this is the internet, and people can say whatever they want.--GLOCK10mil 18:39, 4 August 2011 (CDT)
The Train Scene
when the lights come back on after the shootout, vincent, who has lost so much blood that his fine motor skills are beginning to deteriorate, does appear to have a full mag in his holders. when the movie cuts to the mag hitting the floor, even in stadard definition one can see that there are bullets in the mag. i am fairly certain that the cut is not of an empty mag hitting the floor, but vincent has dropped his last full mag and realizes that that he has been beaten. i know that this is a gun info site however i thought showing the correct sequence of events might be of some importance.
- You can see the plastic red follower on the top of the magazine, an obvious indication it is empty. He also searches his belt for a long time to find a spare magazine. You should keep in mind he took the guards 5906 but no spare mags, so he didn't have anything to reload with anyway. I believe Mann commented on this in the DVD commentary but I might have to go back and check. - Gunmaster45
- I always thought that Vincent had been going to reload, but dropped his one spare as a result of involuntary loss of control of his support hand, because he looks like he's got something in his hands right before he pitches forward and the camera cuts to the magazine hitting the floor. --Clutch 00:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Gunmaster for pointing that out. at the time i wrote my original comment, i was unaware of the red followers as my S&W 1006 has white ones and my 4506 has black followers. looking at the frame and watching the movie again i can see the follower, not a cartridge.
- Originally, in the script, he actually WAS to have another mag, but fumbled. That was changed, though.-protoAuthor 04:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
well if he did fumble on that reload , wouldnt there be two magizines on the floor . the only one that hits looks like the one he had spent .simmons 8492
I always thought that Vincent picked up the guards gun cause he lost his in the car crash. when he emptied it in the shootout he instinctively reached for another mag to reload but realized he didnt have mags for that gun. - EVNASH
that is why he took the guards gun, but i think he realised he was wounded, was out of magizines, and gave up--simmons 8492
It's a little hard to catch, but if you listen to the scene, you can hear the empty magazine hit the floor before just before he reaches for a new one and the scene cuts. So, he does have one more magazine in his holders, and he does fumble the reload, but the armorers for the film left the last mag empty, probably as a safety precaution.--GLOCK10mil 18:34, 4 August 2011 (CDT)
That was movie editing, he would have been diving for it if he had one. You can see him check both holders and come up surprised he didn't have a spare. I've done it myself at the range once. (Same magazine holders too.)--FIVETWOSEVEN 23:05, 3 December 2011 (CST)
Just bought the movie
Man(n), this movie is awesome. -protoAuthor 18:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Ruger Mark II
The Ruger mark II is used t kill Daniel the club owner. After that it is never seen again, so I'm assuming Vincent put it in his briefcase which Max threw off the bridge, which is why it's never seen again. This became clear when in the train scene Vincent reaches for a magazines off his holders but he is fresh out, if he had his Ruger he could of used that. Also Vincent must of reloaded his Smith & Wesson 5906, so I guess it must use the same ammunition as a USP-45 either that or the security guard must of had spare clips. Could someone please verify this- thank you.
- Well, seeing as the 5906 is a 9mm and the USP45 is a .45, he must have gotten the MAGAZINES (not clips) from the security guard. That's an interesting point about the Ruger, though. -Gunman69 17:13, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- He didn't ever reload the S&W. He only fires 1 mag. He didn't take any mags.-protoAuthor 03:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Plus he uses one at Fever and loses the other after the car wreck. You can see it fall off.--FIVETWOSEVEN 21:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I think that the magazine that drops is a spare magazine. Why would a well trained assassin take someone's gun but not spare ammunition for it just in case? The magazine doesn't look empty that drops and he is shot on the side of the body which his hand he uses to get the spare magazines from is on. Plus the way it is edited makes me think that it slipped out of his hand. He isn't a robot, if he didn't take spares he would know that he doesn't have any spare magazines and would not try to reload. --cool-breeze 20:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
That mag that dropped was from the gun and was empty, also there are alot of people that don't carry a spare magazine and this guard may have been one of those. http://www.kyimports.com/images/smw15rd5906.jpg--FIVETWOSEVEN 21:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Well Vincent is a bit stupid then, but then again he did get killed by a cab driver lol. That to me is poor editing as well, surely if they would have meant that to be the ejected magazine the shot of it hitting the floor should have come before the one of him reaching for another one. --cool-breeze 00:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Final shoot out.
In this article, it offers what appears to be a very assured explanation of the final shootout at the end of the movie. It claims that Vincent lost the battle because of his failure to change his killing pattern, blindly following the same method he uses to kill all his targets. I think that this theory is incorrect. Don't you think a hitman as experienced and capable as Vincent would know enough to change his method when it is clear it wouldn't work? While Vincent prefers to shoot his victims with the two-in-the-chest, one-in-the-head method, I'm sure that this tactic is used when he deems it appropriate, and I'm sure a man like Vincent, as intelligent as he is, would not stupidly follow this pattern when it obviously wouldn't work. When a metal door is blocking a clear shot of his target, I'm sure Vincent would know better than to shoot at the door itself, and take advantage of the situation and try to shoot through the windows.
How can a trained hitman like Vincent, lose against Max who has no training what so ever shooting single-handed when Vincent used both hands and fired with a good grip on the gun ? (AceV)
- Lucky shot? But yeah, I get it, that last scene was a bit stupid when clearly a trained professional wouldn't just shoot at a metal door. He should have waited for Max to shoot and empty his gun since Vincent knows Max is an untrained taxi driver. I'm also wondering since Vincent lost his primary weapon, shouldn't he have a back up? He is an ex-military, special forces kind of guy after all. Excalibur01
well, vincent had (kind of) a back up gun, his ruger markII. It was in the bag, which max threw down the bridge and was crushed by the truck.
Well, Vincent was pretty pissed off at the end, what with being shot in the head and all. That may have clouded his judgment of situation a bit. --AlkoTanko 19:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Well it pissed me off, Vincent spent the whole movie, killing people, people who have actually at least touched a gun and then all of a sudden an untrained cab driver just comes and kills him, in a a shoot out, not from behind or anything a shoot out, that was dissapointing. (AceV)
Just because he's skilled at killing people doesn't mean Vincent is indestructable, and just because Max never touched a gun doesn't mean he's going to fall over and die at the first stiff breeze to come along. People die all the time and they don't go out in a blaze of glory, it just happens, that's life. Besides, the whole scene at the end was about Vincent not changing his routine. The way he still reaches for magazines even though he's carrying a different weapon, how he goes for the mozambique drill even though there's a big steel train door between him and Max instead of shooting through the glass, etc. For all his talk of improvisation he was too set in his ways and couldn't prepare for a cab driver.
i agree with what the aformentioned says. in stead of adapting to the situation, he went with what he knew. which was the mozambique drill , which turned out to be his downfall in the end.simmons 8492
It goes along with what Vincent was preaching to Max about earlier; to adapt and evolve to your surroundings. Vincent relied on the Mozambique drill he had perfected, even when he didn't have a clear shot on Max. Max clumsily shot around in multiple directions, increasing his chances to hit his unseen target. Max was able to evolve, Vincent wasn't. There's also some argument to the idea of a chaotic outcome, in that in the movie when Max steps out in front on the train for the last time to face Vincent, he closes his eyes as well as fireing the weapon with no regard for his aim other then the single direction towards Vincent. This is confirmed by the director Mann in the movies commentary, in fact Mann goes on to say the only reason Max succeeds is because the character closes his eyes and throws the dice so to speak. Again going back to the idea of improvisation, Max was willing to take the gamble where as Vincent played the safe bet, and the outcome was in Max's favor.
I'd say Vincent got something called "paralysis by analysis". When you have the mechanics of something well figured out its best to just let it happen. Choking occurs when people who know better start thinking too hard about what they need to do. The added pressure forces your brain into a state called "paralysis by analysis" where the "working memory" part of your brain literally stops working, and the more talented you are the more working memory you have meaning the harder the failure. --Devang.dn 23:23, 22 March 2011 (CDT)
Slight comment overhaul
I did some work praising the good gun work on the movie, you guys like it?-protoAuthor 04:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
No
Ralph pls go.--AlkoTanko 11:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Nice.--Spikemonkey 18:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
"the first gun we see"
It says "Detective Fanning (Mark Ruffalo) draws the first gun we see, a Smith & Wesson 4516 in .45 ACP". This is not true. the First gun we see is Vincents USP when he pulls it on max after el gordo falls out the window onto the taxi and max freaks out.
Ruger Mark II
Why would the suppressed shots be louder than the guys head hitting the table? In case you didn't know, suppressors were made to make guns quieter. Even in a confined space, a silenced .22 with sub-sonic rounds (that's probably what Vincent would have used anyway, condidering that he's a hitman and cared enough to use a silenced pistol anyways) is very quiet. I have also shot a silenced .22 (a Ruger 77/22 bolt action, although this was outdoors so maybe the sound didn't travel as much, but that's not the point) and it was very quiet. With a bolt action gun it's even quiter since the bolt doesn't move with each shot. But anyways, the only sound a suppressed Ruger mark II would make (and made in the movie) is a slight click when the action cycles. This would have been quiter than a slamming head, unless he had a really fatty forehead. --ColonelTomb 22:34, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
- Also, if the guy's head had hit the table, he would have knocked over glasses, and knocked the table to the ground, which is MUCH louder than any suppressed gunfire.--Pølaris 22:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
A sub-sonic round in a .22 cal would not be able to cycle the action of a semi-auto, so if he shot more then once he wasnt using sub-sonic, ergo, the bullet would be over the sound barer and create that ol' classic crack of the round discharging. But for movie sake they we're probably just making the gun sound cooler. Spades of Columbia
- My Ruger Mk II cycles fine with sub-sonic rounds, and I didn't modify it at all. --funkychinaman 17:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Making Vincent is so resourceful he has a modded Ruger that has a weaker spring that cycles when shot with sub sonics. --FIVETWOSEVEN 17:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
The point was to explain why the "suppressed" gun was loud, not how it could in some way or another shoot a sub-sonic round. If that was the case a person could easily argue that he was using a 1050fps sub-sonic rd which in some guns can feed without modifacation instead of the normal 710fps round. Spades of Columbia
Yeah but (and correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't he have shot him from such a close range that the bullet wouldn't have been able to break the sound barrier? Also, I agree with FIVETWOSEVEN on the theory of the modified spring. --ColonelTomb 02:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
You've been corrected because your wrong...the powder burn would have been spent by the end of the barrel which uses the twist rate to fully bust its velosity, meaning, its pretty much going its top speed by the end of the barrel and the crack noice is usually signifying the bullet has left the firearm...combined with the noice of a all-steel action clanking together as it cycles the next round make a "Silenced" pistol, not so silent. Spades of Columbia
What do you mean the "normal" 710 fps round? That would be a CB Long or Short, not a normal round. Also watch this vid of a guy using an integrally suppressed Ruger Mark II with standard velocity ammo; I hear no crack. http://suppressorbuyersguide.com/Articles.php?action=detail&g=content1235373509s And note that this suppressor is even shorter than the one that Vincent had, making it even less effective and yet still cycling and being very quiet with standard velocity ammo. --ColonelTomb 03:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
You are very much correct sir. You did indeed prove me wrong on that one...but originally i was trying to explain why it might have been so loud in the movie for being silenced...any thoughts on that.--Spades of Columbia 18:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
probably a decision made by the sound guys. Most people want to hear that distinctive chirp so they know, "oh hey, his gun had a silencer on it." Just playing into the audience's preconceptions.
Question for everyone: take a close look at the picture with the street thug holding the pistol to Max's head. It looks more like a Walther PPK or PPK/s. I own a couple so I'm familiar with the details on the rear of the slide and this photo looks more Walther than SIG. Could be just the way it looks, but it seems that way to me.
Its a SIG, look at the extractor. --FIVETWOSEVEN 21:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention the cocking serrations. -- K 98.118.59.244 23:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
What does Vincent finally do with the SIG ? I'm pretty sure he retrieves it from the thug. Does he lose it along with the rest of his belongings ? - Devang
He didn't pick it up, he picked up Max's wallet.--FIVETWOSEVEN 23:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Fanning
How come when Detective Fanning enters Ramon's apartment he draws his gun one handed and clears the entire apartment one handed? Wouldn't most trained cops clear a room with both hands on their weapon?
One word, Preference.--FIVETWOSEVEN 01:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
He was still undercover at the time, so he didn't want to look like a cop. -nkingman
actualy he wasnt undercover . Ramon was an informant . i agree with 527.-simmons 8492
Hes actually a Detective.--FIVETWOSEVEN 05:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
My problem is that his finger is on the trigger the whole time. Seems unsafe if you are looking for an informer. --Westernman1987
No, Fanning's not the informant, he's going to the home of the informant who Vincent just shot and sent through a window. The trigger on the finger thing is a bit unprofessional but in a stress induced situation, you sometimes forget Excalibur01 02:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Ramon was a Federal witness. It's been a while since I've seen the film but I got the impression that Fanning was an undercover narcotic's officer judging by the fake accent when he is asking for Ramon and his appearance. I assumed he was undercover trying to bust Ramon. Like I said though it's been a while since I watched it. --cool-breeze 17:12, 3 April 2011 (CDT)
Hes Not a witness, Hes An Informant, Fanning Is LAPD, If He was A Federal witness, He Would Be In Witness Protection With The U.S. Marshals. Fanning When To See His CI (confidential Informant), Saw Signs Of A Strugel, IE The Door Being Left Open, No Answer After Repeted calls of His NAme, And Claered The House. He Should Have Kepy His Finger Off The Triger Since There Were No Signs Of exigent circumstances. and Going In One Handed Could Be One Of Two Things. It Was To Hide The Fact That He Is LAPD And Keep Ramon Safe, As nkingman Pointed Out, Or, And This Is More Likely, He Just Pulled, And So He Could Pop His Head, And His Gun Hand Out, And Have Hib Body Remain In Cover, Like He Does In The Second To Last Photo.--simmons 8492
Simmons did you even watch the film? Everyone that Vincent killed was a Federal witness for the prosecution. --cool-breeze 18:30, 8 August 2011 (CDT)
I Did Watch The Film, But The Term Federal Is Being Thrown Around To Much. The One Witness I Would Call A Federal Witness Would Be The One At Fever, Because The FBI Was Watching Him. Just Because Your A Witness, Doesnt Mean Your A Federal One. Not To Mention, Fanning Calls Him An Informant.--simmons 8492
They were all witnesses in the same trial. --cool-breeze 20:42, 13 August 2011 (CDT)
Ramon was an informant. Not a witness. The man in fever was a witness. No one said ramon was going to testify.--simmons 8492
YES THEY DID! In the scene where Fanning meets the FBI outside Felix's club he tells them about Ramon and Pedrosa says that's 3 witnesses so far. Just because you don't pay attention doesn't make what you think so. Nothing annoys me more is people who don't pay attention and then try to tell people who did that they are wrong. --cool-breeze 11:36, 14 August 2011 (CDT)
Fanning isnt involved in that case. Ramon is still fanning CI. Thats what ties him into this case. Hes trying to find out what happened to his CI. I will admit that ramon was also a witness, if he was a federal witness, i dont understand why he and clark were not being watched by the U.S. marshals or the FBI (which i have no clue why there watching witnesses). When fanning went to see him, it wasnt to see him as a witness. It was to see him as his informant.--simmons 8492
Yeah but he was still a witness. Fanning looked undercover to me. How many times do you see in films that local cops are investigating criminals who the Feds have as a witness? The Feds weren't watching the guy in club fever they just knew where he hung out. The guy in club Fever was being watched by his own men that's why it took the Feds so long to get on the scene. --cool-breeze 15:52, 14 August 2011 (CDT)
The reason i think he wasnt undercover is because he had to keep ramons identity as a CI intact, and he doesnt change how he looked or anything. Also if hed had his badge. I dont know if he did because he is never really seen drawing it from his waist. So in a way he is undercover. And if you are a federal witness, even if you do NOT go it to witness protection, the Marshals watch you. Now that i think about it, not only was the FBI actually watching felix and doing the right thing, but no branch of law enforcement was watching these witnesses.--simmons 8492
If there had been it would have been a very different film as Tom would have had to kill the Marshals at each hit and word would have gotten out. --cool-breeze 03:50, 15 August 2011 (CDT)
Well he handled the guards at fever very well. Id like to think that a former special forces soldier turned private sector mercinary would be able to handle himself in a situation like that.--simmons 8492
Yeah but word would have gotten out about Marshals being killed and the Feds would have secured the guy in Fever a lot sooner I imagine. --cool-breeze 09:21, 15 August 2011 (CDT)
True, But i would imagine that vincent would know that they would be there, and be prepaired to deal with the marshals moving the witnesses. I just would have liked to see how it would go down. your from the UK. What do they do with witnesses?--simmons 8492
No idea. Knowing how screwed up our government is probably just leave them alone until they get murdered. --cool-breeze 11:58, 15 August 2011 (CDT)
That is a great way to deal with witnesses.--simmons 8492
Well they dealt with the riots by sitting back and just waiting for people to obey the law again. I feel sorry for the police in my country because no matter what they do they get chastised for it. They shoot a drug dealer who was illegally carrying a handgun and they murdered an innocent man. A guy breaks loose with a shotgun and goes on a killing spree and they aren't using enough force. They are always been called facists by people who don't have a clue about how the world works. I'd love to dump all the people who think the police in my country are corrupt, violent facists in somewhere where the police will kidnap and torture random people at the behest of the dictatorship government and then see what they think of our police. --cool-breeze 05:33, 16 August 2011 (CDT)
It would be great if the righters all wore the "V" masks.Do the poliece in the UK carry handguns? Because i know that when on high alert, they jump right to the MP5, and does the UK have a SWAT/HRT?--simmons 8492
The rioters weren't making any political point it was just a bunch of pricks who wanted to kick up a fuss. And we have specialised armed response units that are armed. The normal everyday cop on the street isn't armed. The UK has CO19 which is a specialist armed response unit. Normal everyday people did more to stop the rioters than the police did, but it's not the police's fault really it's the government refusing to allow them to do what was necessary until it was too late. --cool-breeze 05:53, 18 August 2011 (CDT)
Thats the down side to being in law enforcement. If you have to use dealy force, its excesive force, but if the suspect does kill an officer, your not using enough force. The world is such a backwards place. inn the words of Jack Nicholson as Col. Nathan R. Jessep in A Few Good Men "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."--simmons 8492
Good quote. It's a shame that Jessop ends up being a bit mental. --cool-breeze 18:26, 18 August 2011 (CDT)
At least he isnt a scientoligest.--simmons 8492
Umm, you mean scientoLOGIst, right?... --Warejaws 15:16, 19 August 2011 (CDT)
I mean crazy.--simmons 8492
Now that... I can agree on --Warejaws 18:26, 19 August 2011 (CDT)
Good man. But what did the rioters want?--simmons 8492
Some prat got himself shot and some more prats decided that it was a good excuse to go rioting for no obvious reason --Taurus96 08:04, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
hk 45
Where can You find the new pics of tom cruise hk 45?
Its a USP 45, not a HK45, also it looks like any other USP.--FIVETWOSEVEN 15:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Fanning's pistol
Fanning is not carrying a S&W 4516 in this movie. If you notice in the first screenshoot of him as he enters the apartment, the frame is contrasted sharply with the slide and guiderod. It has a duller "gray" color. The frame is not stainless, it is anodized alloy. There are no 3rd gen compact 45 guns made by S&W with allow frames other than the TSW and Recon versions (performance center). Fanning's gun doesn't have a rail or a "tactical" or "recon" billboard on the left side of the slide so that rules those out. The shadow of the first screenshot makes the bore look larger than it is but the second screenshot shows it's true size. That is a 9mm bore. Unless someone has some inside knowledge of this film and this is a specially made alloy framed, non-TSW compact 45, it should be changed to a S&W 3913.--Luckyluciano 05:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, the gun is alloy framed and a non-TSW compact. It could be a 3913, but then it could also be a single stack non-TSW 4013. This verison of the 4013 is identical to the 4516, but in .40S&W and with an alloy frame. Also, Fanning's gun has a larger "beavertail" than what a 3913 would have.
The beavertail could be indicative of a 4013 but that would really depend on the size of the actor's hands since we don't have a plain view side shot of the gun itself. The other thing to note is that the magazines he carries (as seen when they first investigate Ramon's murder and the cab crime scene) have staggered holes in them. The 4013 magazine holes are in a straight vertical line but the 3913 magazines have staggered holes. That might not mean anything as the could easily have a 4013 as a prop gun and magazines from any other gun on his hip. --Luckyluciano 14:57, 16 March 2011 (CDT)
Officer from near the end of the movie
We see the picture of the cop, who is an actual LAPD Officer, holding his issue Beretta, but we can see his thumb layered over his dominant hand. Thats just asking for slidebite. It seems like a poor grip for an actual LAPD officer. -MissySummers-
It all varies on the training. Some guns you can do that all day without slide bite.--FIVETWOSEVEN 23:10, 3 December 2011 (CST)
Fair enough. A friend of mine just took classes to obtain his firearms license and they were teaching cup and saucer method as "the best method to control recoil" as i quote from the teacher. -MissySummers-
- lol. XO - Mr. Wolf 00:22, 5 December 2011 (CST)