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:Ok, Marine training is a little different from the regular army. I've heard from the older Marines I know about how they joke how the Army "ain't shit" compared to them. The Marines have always been a bit more specialized than the Army since WWII. McCauley most likely honed his CQB tactics during his career as a robber. Obviously he and the others on his team had worked long enough as a unit 02:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC) | :Ok, Marine training is a little different from the regular army. I've heard from the older Marines I know about how they joke how the Army "ain't shit" compared to them. The Marines have always been a bit more specialized than the Army since WWII. McCauley most likely honed his CQB tactics during his career as a robber. Obviously he and the others on his team had worked long enough as a unit 02:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC) | ||
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i know this is a bit out of place , but i was watching this last night and wanted to know , when hanna is looking for McCauley in the airfield he fires his sidearm 4 time with three rounds in a nice triangular shape . my question is , where did his first round hit ? once again , i know this is out of place but i fiugred he would have been trained where to shoot him . [[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]] | i know this is a bit out of place , but i was watching this last night and wanted to know , when hanna is looking for McCauley in the airfield he fires his sidearm 4 time with three rounds in a nice triangular shape . my question is , where did his first round hit ? once again , i know this is out of place but i fiugred he would have been trained where to shoot him . [[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]] | ||
:Something else that often goes overlooked. A person can teach themselves. I periodically practice room clearing and CQB on my own.I practice drawing my Glock from different positions (sitting, laying on my gun side, drawing with my weak hand), reloading with one hand, and so on. It isn't at all uncommon for criminals (the more serious ones) to practice or train on their own. Whose to say that McCauly wouldn't do that? | |||
Also I spent several years in the U.S. Army and we got our share of CQB training. Building clearing, break contact drills, immediate action drills, small unit tactics etc. And I wasn't infantry. I was Military Intelligence assigned to the 10th Mountain Division. We received probably just a third of the training that the infantry battalions did in the division. Yes the Marines are good, but they aren't Supermen. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 22:37, 17 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
==Cheritto's Galil== | ==Cheritto's Galil== | ||
Revision as of 03:37, 18 March 2012
Views
It's amazing we've reached nearly 80,000 views for this page. I remember how happy we were when it hit 50,000...which doesn't seem like it was all that long ago. Probably won't be much longer before we hit 100,000. -MT2008
- Over 130,000 now. Crazy. -MT2008
This discussion must be pretty old; the view are now over 230,000!! User:jackbel
Has anyone seen this?
http://fateoflegions.blogspot.com/2008/06/movie-guns-x.html
I'm just curious because although his list isn't as thorough as ours, he seems to have some very high-quality screenshots which look way better than those on my DVD. I especially like the screenshot of Trejo's Norinco AK, which shows the barrel and front sight in better detail. Blu Ray, perhaps?
- The clearer shots already disproved one of my own recollections and I will fix it. I could have sworn that I saw M16A1 uppers mounted onto SP1 lowers on the set. (it was fourteen years ago!) But the clearer BLURAY shots show Wes Studi's rifle to be an M16A1 lower, not the SP1 lower I thought it was. Fooey! I pulled one of those Franken-guns from the inventory (though I can't be sure if that gun ever was in HEAT) and photographed it for nothing. I will change it back. As for this guy's list, he has much clearer High Def shots, but his information isn't nearly as accurate as IMFDB's page. MoviePropMaster2008
- I always used to think it was a continuity error...the first shot (where he's firing at the car) clearly shows a gun with a mil-spec A1-style receiver, but it does look like an SP1 lower in the next scene, right before he shoots Kilmer. If it weren't for the Blu Ray shots, I would have continued to think this way.
- The guy thought the 733s in the film were M4A3s just because of the DVD title sequence. Pretty funny. I wish I had thought to nab more shots, many of the ones he took were ones I didn't bother because I thought the ones we had were good enough. Should have followed my gut. His page is a little more complete but less correct, as far as I'm concerned.-GM
- There's also the phenomenon of having too many screen caps, something I'm seeing on some pages (look at Dogs of War, the changes that aren't mine.). I know that some guys get all excited about their ability to post screen caps, but having literally DOZENS of images of the same guns is really beating a dead horse and makes the page cumbersome and annoying to look at. The last thing I want are to have IMFDB movie pages resembling people's MYSPACE pages ... cluttered, hard to navigate and generally irritating. So far I think your ratio of 'useful' images is just fine. These other guys don't know when there is too much of a good thing.
- Also IMFDB has the advantage of multiple users checking and re-checking the pages. Sure some of the pages have work to do, but they will eventually be 100% done. MoviePropMaster2008
- What is this so called M4A3? I've never heard of it. So after the A1, there's an A2 and an A3 as well? Are we talking about what Colt makes or what Bushmaster makes? Excalibur01 02:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- No such variant exists. Someone mistook another Colt variant I guess and soon it spread around as improper fact. - Gunmaster45
- What is this so called M4A3? I've never heard of it. So after the A1, there's an A2 and an A3 as well? Are we talking about what Colt makes or what Bushmaster makes? Excalibur01 02:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I see. Well I can somewhat understand some people when they look at AR-15 type weapons as the same rifle because they all share the same basic design. I used to look and see every shorty M16 variant as an M4 before I knew more about the M4 and also used to not know that the M4 is the burst verison and the A1 is auto with the removable carrying handle Excalibur01 07:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Hey, guys, there is no Blu-Ray of Heat yet, unfortunately.
- UPDATE ON DAT ISSUE: Yes there is, now. By the way, above is me as well.-protoAuthor 19:30, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Bosko (Ted Levine)
The first casualty of the bank robbery gun battle. What type of gun was he using? GoldDragon 03:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- The rent-a-cop with the ankle holster? Or out in the street? bunni 15:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Out in the street. I though it was a G36K or something but I can't be sure. GoldDragon 02:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I know this is kind of an old comment, but the G36 series wasn't around when the movie was filmed (1994-95), and it wouldn't have been imported to the U.S. until 1998, about two years after it entered service with the Bundeswehr. Anyway, Bosko uses one of the M16A1s with A2 handguards that are used by most of the other detectives in the shootout, including Detective Casals.
M4
During the van rubbery DiNero and Killmer used M4s.
- No, they used Colt Model 733s. - Flying Dane
- Is a "rubbery" something like a "shrubbery"? And who is DiNEro ("Money" in spanish) and KILLmer? Just kidding LOL!~ ;) - MoviePropMaster2008
Help!
Someone fucked up the pictures with  letters, i fixed that. Now, some of the pictures don't show for some reason. - User:Flying Dane
Fixed
It's okay, I fixed them. They had some long spaces in them. Alienqueen11.
MoviePropMaster2008 edit
I deleted the MoviePropMaster2008 edit because of it's non-encyclopedic tone. If discussions about a certain gun in the article are to be made, I think it should be done here in the discussion section. Johnnieblue 23:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, that's fine, but then at the very least, you should have the courtesy to copy and paste the comments into this section rather than deleting them completely, as I have done here.
Alright. I'll be sure to do that in the future. Johnnieblue 19:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Conversation on the FNC
MP2008 had a really good conversation going about which variant of FNC is carried by Vincent in this movie. I have now revived it for this section:
- Well, you've been very busy, Gunmaster45, though you're making an entirely educated guess (not a bad one) The 70-30 is a Para length barrel semi auto FNC designed for Law Enforcement use and sale only , so that would be a good guess. However, The FNCs on the set WERE full auto (I was there), but Director Michael Mann directed Al Pacino to fire semi auto only (which is pretty cool since police should NOT go full auto on street full of civilians). From what I remember, Pacino's gun was a pre-1985 American imported FNC 223 rem Sporter that was converted and had the barrel chopped WAY down to mimic the Para rifles and had a M16A1 style birdcage flash hider installed (see pic) by the movie armorers. FN imported American shorter FNC guns 'called' the para rifle, but the American barrels were several inches longer than the one seen in the movie, so this one was chopped down to look more like the European Para Models of the FNC.
- Harry Lu was the lead armorer (same guy who just did Rambo (2008)), but he's the head coordinator. There were a LOT of trainers and gun handlers on location - it was a big shoot with lots of actors/stuntmen handling live weapons. Lu, like most armorers, acquired the guns from rental houses. At the beginning of the filming of the Street battle, the FNCs were provided by Mike Papac of Cinema Weaponry, but the filming went a lot longer than anticipated, and rifles apparently were swapped out with guns provided by Syd Stembridge of Stembridge Gun Rentals of Glendale (according to everyone's recollection), it's been almost 14 years since that shoot so everyone is working from memory. I too must check it for sure. What I remember and what Mike or Syd or Harry tell me may differ so I will try to get a pic of Pacino's exact gun or at least get the exact model and make info. ...MoviePropMaster2008
How do you get images onto imfdb i am really stumped
- Use "Upload File" under the "Toolbox" section (visible on the left menu, below "Search"). To actually display images in an article, copy and paste some of the code from any article of your choice (you can use the code that I used on this page to display the image of Pacino with the FNC, above).
- I don't remember what I said to which MPM replied. Anyone remember? Gunmaster45
Gonna fix my own pics
Will probably be replacing the pic I uploaded of the Colt 733 since mine is actually an M16A1 with a Colt Sporter Carbine top, chopped down to resemble a 733. I am trying to get a REAL (marked) 733 that hasn't been altered by a gunsmith (that's pretty hard in this town). Too many of the guns are outfitted with outlandish RIS rails, lasers, scope mounts, and they're nearly unrecognizable. And if I'm borrowing someone else's gun to snap pics of I don't want to have to completely rebuild their gun. ;) Just giving everyone a heads up. (MPM2008)
- Is that why these guns have A2 recievers and yours has an A1? - Gunmaster45
New pics
How does our number 1 page look now that I added some extra shots? I'm quite proud of my Norinco Type 56-1 pic. - Gunmaster45
Comment regarding the first shot of the FN FNC section.
The screencap you have would appear to show no one but civilians in Vincent's line of fire. However, the shots immediately before show Vincent and his soon-to-be-deceased partner coming under fire from Shirelis as he hops into the getaway car. Considering that most no one short of a robot's going to have enough wherewithal to know when to stop firing THAT quickly, it can be reasonably assumed that Vincent still believed he had a good bead. I wouldn't slight him for that one. --Clutch 09:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Discussion of "Fragmentation"
Hello.
I noticed a over enthiusiastic, but inccorect passage regarding the secondary wounding mechanism of "fragmentation" in the Colt 733 article, and editted it appropriately.
Fragmentation is well documented to be a function of velocity. While certain rounds can fragment at lower velocities (ie, MK262 Mod 0/Mod 1, Nosler OTM, etc) it remains a constant that a high velocity = higher chance of fragmentation. As a result, the statement that rounds fired from the 733 fragment violently, similiar to an "explosion" is completely false.
As is documented in reports by Dr. Martin L. Fackler, and in testing, the reliable fragmentation threshold for common military 5.56 rounds (Vietnam era 55 grain M-193 and modern green tip 62 grain M-855) is 2700 feet per second. The M733 with it's 10.7" barrel will produce velocities in the low 2600 range at the muzzle (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/john.ppt#3, a US SOCOM report concerning the modern MK 18, 10.5" barreled grandchild of the M733) , and as such, will not provide very good fragmentation at distances beyond punching range.
http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_2700.html
FNC rifle update
I changed the entry for the FNC rifle. I spoke to all of the armorers on set on this film and everyone says that the rifle was a full auto FNC (imported in the early 1980s) that was chopped and fired semi only at the behest of Director Mann. :) MoviePropMaster2008 06:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
1911 & clones handguns
The handgun seen on the SISs officier near the end seems to be an LA Vickers Custom, based on the Springfield Loaded pistol, with an extended magwell (you can clearly see the extension on the pistol). The LA Vickers Custom was one of the 1911 handguns delivered by Property Division to the LAPD SWAT before the Kimber Custom II was selected as standard issue for the LAPD (and later the Kimber SIS for the SIS officers)
- It's possible, but I dunno if you can assume that. It's always a bad idea to assume that just because a certain law enforcement agency/unit or military uses a particular gun in real life, the exact same weapon is being used in a particular movie. There are a lot of movies that depict NYPD officers using Glock 17s instead of 19s, or that depict Secret Service Agents using SIG-Sauer P226s instead of P228s/P229s, for instance. -MT2008
- Yeah sure, but it looks like they at least tried to replicate it. Well i think we can say its a Government pistol with a magwell extension.
Empty P220 anyone
During the ending section, where Neil shots Trejo, Van Zant and Waingro, then shoots at Hannah, he fires a total of 8 rounds from his P220. Now correct me if i'm wrong, but a P220 carries an 8 round mag of .45 ACP rounds, so when Neil is lying in wait for Hannah just before the end, wouldn't he be empty? That is, of course, if he never reloaded.--M14fanboy 23:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why wouldn't he have reloaded?
He had fired the weapon previously, not firing the complete magazine. He then makes an exit from his "combat zone", no competent shooter in the world would enter a new "combat zone" (i.e. the hotel) with an intended purpose of using that weapon against unknown number of combatants with a half empty, low-cap magazine. Not only is this something a trained shooter would do (as the film suggest Neil has autodidactically become), it is simply common sense to do so and I stress to think of anyone who would make this mistake.--Jackie.45Cal 10:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Car Chase
It's funny: I was just on the street in downtown L.A. today where they filmed the shootout in this movie between the LAPD and McCauley's gang. Remember the part where McCauley, Cheritto, and Shiherlis got in the getaway car and drove off only to be stopped by a police roadblock? They made that sequence seem longer than it really would've been in reality. When I was on Fifth Street today, I looked, thought about it, and realized: they drove roughly one block before stopping, but it seemed like a much greater distance in the film. Just wanted to point that out. -Gunman69 02:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well, what can I say...you've stumbled upon one of the nuances of direction. Depending on editing and filming, a scene like that can appear to take place over a longer distance than it actually does. Even though Mann might have only been able to get the city to close down one or two blocks for filming (which, when you think about it, makes perfect sense), they can still make the scale of the battle feel larger and more epic with good direction. -MT2008
- Oh yeah, its still a great scene. In my opinion, I think it is one of the greatest movie gunbattles ever. It reminds me of the escalator shootout at Grand Central Station in Carlito's Way. It kept going for a really long time because it was a very epic gunfight. -Gunman69 04:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Hanna's Guns
I was also just thinking about this: the filmmakers got most of the LAPD's weapons right. Patrol Officers carry Beretta's and Remington's (of course I don't think the LAPD used Mossbergs, but whatever. Maybe they did, idk), SWAT carries 1911's, MP5s, etc. You get the point. But what I found really interesting was Hanna's choice of weapons. A Colt Officer's ACP with ivory grips and an FN FNC. Now those are weapons I've never heard of any American police department using. Anyways, I just thought that was kinda odd. -Gunman69 02:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree but on the other hand, I think, plot-wise or character-wise Hanna's choice makes sense. Maybe Hanna's guns were chosen for dramatic reasons, to show, how much a loner he was. You know, he's not playing by the rules, so he doesn't use the same guns as the rest of the team. And since he's the best cop ever, of course he's allowed to carry any gun he wants. Something like that. There are many movies in which the hero-cops carry stranger guns (Remember Sam Elliott playing a NY-cop with a .45 Winchester Magnum LAR Grizzly Pistol?). --Lastgunslinger 07:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
With obvious reason, undercover officers, especially those conducting long term investigation with a cover, quite often are assigned with weapons that are not standard department issue (or often smaller carry pieces of those weapons). In the case of Sam Elliot's character, this is an obvious exaggeration and the weapon what just picked to be cool. Hanna's gun, I'm guessing, was just Mann picking a very cool little gun that he liked and thought would give Hanna some extra personality.--Jackie.45Cal 21:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
KP90
- I do not think that Cheritto would be the kind of guy who would use this sort of pistol over something better like a Hi-Power or M1911. He seems like a fellow "Gun Guy", who would not be caught dead with such a crappy sidearm-S&Wshooter 01:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
What makes the KP90 so "crappy"?
I´ve shot a few rounds with a P89 some years ago. Can't say, it was a bad gun.
BTW I´ve always been under the impression, there are no really bad guns. Only bad shots. --Lastgunslinger 13:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter how good a shot you are if your pistol falls apart when you fire it-S&Wshooter 03:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
And the KP90 tends to "fall apart"? Never heard of that. Any experiences? --Lastgunslinger 07:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't, a lot of the P-series Rugers have a reputation for reliability earning them the nickname "Bricks with Triggers." S&WShooter, just because you don't like a certain gun doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you or that a gunman's credibility should be questioned because he chooses to carry it. Your opinion is not the final say on a gun's quality. For instance, many people prefer weapons with double-action triggers like the P-series Rugers over the single action 1911 and Hi-Power you adore so much.
S&WShooter is an example of "MY BRANDS ARE BEST!!! REST ARE CRAP!!!" kind of person. Little experiance yet big talk.--FIVETWOSEVEN 01:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Chuck Adamson. The real life inspiration for Vincent Hanna.
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He retired as a Lt. with the Chicago PD. He was the guy that Micheal Mann modeled Vincent Hanna after. He was a technical advisor on Heat and I believe the televison series Crime Story which was also produced by Mann.Chuck Adamson passed away on 02/22/2008. --Jcordell 21:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's interesting. I remember hearing Hanna was based on a real cop, but didn't know much about him. -MT2008 13:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- On the special DVD release of Heat there is an interview with Adamson. He talks about an actual case that he worked in the early sixties in Chicago and how they ended up taking down the crew in a gun battle. Evidently this case was the inspiration for the television show Crime Story and the two movies L.A. Takedown and Heat. Supposedly Adamson and Dennis Farina worked together when they were both Chicago cops. Just some interesting neat to know trivia. Impress people at parties. --Jcordell 14:11, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Duct tape?
At the beginning, I see DeNiro's Colt Model 654 with duct tape on the handguard. Is there a purpose for it? Because this has always bothered me when I rewatch the movie. Excalibur01 20:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know this for sure, but I would guess that it's to either make damn sure there are no fingerprints, or help it burn with that incendiary, or help with gripping the gun some way, or just look cool. Knowing Michael Mann, it's probably one of the former three, rather than the latter, and I'm guessing mostly the grip one.-protoAuthor 19:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we can rule out the first option because De Niro is wearing gloves. -Gunman69 21:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- I thought the duct tape was attaching a stop watch to the rifle, could be wrong though. -Toadvine
Here is what I read on TvTrope's page on gun accessories 'Soldiers often wrap tape around the base of a magazine to make it easier to handle, since it's usually smooth; companies such as Magpul now make slide-on grips, purpose-built magazine baseplates which include grips, and even whole magazines with gripped sides. Other options include transparent polymer magazines so you can more easily see how much ammunition you have left (with the downside that so can everyone else). Tape is also commonly wrapped around the base of a magazine to differentiate one end from another, which can be difficult in the heat of the moment, as most magazines are symmetrical. Tape can also be used to signify different bullet types within the magazine.' --~~
- Toadvine is correct. He has duct tape on the hand guards because he has a stop watch attached to the rifle, which he uses to time the police response. It has nothing to do with making the rifle easier to hold (and TyTrope's page is talking about magazines; we're talking about the hand guards, so that discussion is irrelevant). -MT2008 13:52, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
As a minor and more-or-less irrelevant point, I wrote more or less that entire page. Vangelis 04:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Trivia
Kind of cinematic/firearms related but I remember seeing a movie in the 1980's called "L.A. Takedown" and when I saw Heat I thought they had ripped off the movie. Then I read an article which confirmed Mann had made both and had considered the former a "dress rehearsal" for the latter. Anyways, I remember in "Takedown" the lead actor in the movie used a Franchi SPAS-15 in the final shootout proving, at least in my opinion, Mann always managed to make the weapons in his productions as exotic as the actors in them. --Charon68 03:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well maybe for LA Takedown, but in his other movies from Heat, Collateral, Miami Vice, and Public Enemies, the weapons weren't really "exotic". Maybe the SIG 552 used in Miami Vice, but all other guns since Heat were pretty normal. To me, it's the style of combat that is shown in Mann's movies that catches your eyes. Excalibur01 06:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
- Actually I should have said Mann delivers a little more variety in his flicks, television shows. With most "standard" police/crime dramas they have the usual firearms (Glocks, Berettas, AR-15 clones of some sort) whereas Mann adds things like the Strayer-Voigt Tiki in Miami Vice, the FNC in Heat, that sort of thing. --Charon68 21:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hanna also used a nickel plated SIG-Sauer P226 in "LA Takedown", further proving your point. I know someone using a SIG isn't that uncommon nowadays, but it was rare back in 1989. At that time, only Rambo: First Blood Part II and Robocop featured the 226. And this was the first time that a nickel model was used. -Gunman69 05:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I too remember "LA Takedown". I thought it was cool to see the USAS-12 in action. I'm pretty sure it was the USAS-12 and not a Franchi SPAS-15. The only reason being that it was making the firearms writers circuit at the time, and it stood out with the 10-shot magazine onscreen. I still think that part of the anniversary Edition of HEAT should have been inclusion of LA Takedown, as I've not found a Region 1 DVD of it! - BC2009 19 December 2009
- The shotgun used in "L.A. Takedown" was a SPAS-15, not a USAS-12. There are plenty of screengrabs of the movie online which confirm that the SPAS-15 was used. -MT2008
I stand corrected. I found video clips of the movie, including the bank heist/shootout. Daniel Baldwin started out with the SPAS-15. Standing erect in a "proper" hi-power rifle stance. God I'm glad to see part of the movie again!
A social history of the SPAS-15 (from an old fart)
Not only was the SPAS-15 considered to be exotic when it was used in L.A. Takedown, but thanks to an executive order signed by President George Bush (the first one) it wasn't being imported into the United States along with many other foreign manufactured "assault weapons". It's my understanding that very few (I don't have an exact count) were shipped into the U.S. before Bush had an knee jerk reaction to a school shooting in Stockton(?) California in 1988 and stopped the importation of a whole bunch of different firearms based on their cosmetic appearances. I believe the shooter in Stockton used some type of AK-47 variant. Some of you guys are too young to remember the eighties and early nineties. And you're lucky.
There was approximately a fifteen year stretch from 1979 - 1994. It started with a school shooting in San Diego, California on 01/29/1979 (Brenda Ann Spencer. When asked why she stated "I don't like Mondays. Which was the inspiration for the song by the Boomtown Rats "I don't Like Mondays".) and culminating with the signing of the so called "Crime Bill" in 1994 by Clinton in which gunowners couldn't catch a break. Not one. Well there were a couple wins for us, but not many.Everytime you turned around some city or state was (effectively) outlawing gunownership and gunowners were ignored and percieved as whackos. Believe it or not things are better now. Much better in my opinion.
Actually one could argue that the real bad times for American gunowners started with Whitman and his shooting spree from the tower in Austin, Texas or perhaps when the WWII veteran went on a shooting spree in Trenton, New Jersy in 47/48. But I remember the 79 shooting and that's where I started keeping track.
Anyway the SPAS-15 was a victim of that time period. Just look at this as FYI. --Jcordell 16:21, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair, no one was importing the SPAS-15 as of May 1989 when the suspension of importation of 'assault weapons' started (temporarily and then made permanent via very fanciful 're-interpretation of existing law' by the ATF). Bush the elder could only temporarily suspend imports being that they were LEGAL and LAWFUL items. But the ATF managed to figure out a way to re-interpret the 'sporting clause' for imported guns from the Gun Control Act of 1968. But by 1989 there weren't that many SPAS-15 shotguns in the country. They were too expensive, too clunky and shotguns like the Benelli M series of shotguns were the 'cool' tactical shotguns to have. I tried to find a SPAS-15 in 1989 and the only ones out there were used ones, no new ones had been imported for YEARS due to poor sales. MoviePropMaster2008 04:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
The new pic that Ben41 uploaded
With the supposed M16A1 with A2 handguards. that looks like a Heavy barrel, so it would NOT be an A1. MoviePropMaster2008 19:23, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
So it's an actual A2? Should it be changed?--Ben41 00:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- How can it be an M16A2? It has an M16A1 receiver.--Oliveira 00:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Huh? The only difference between an A1 and A2 lower receiver (other than the 3 round burst) is that the back end of the A2 receiver is slightly fatter to resist cracking the ring that holds the rear buffer tube. How can you tell it's an A1 lower? I have to HOLD the two together in person in order to see the difference. Now if it's an SP1 lower, then that can be seen from a distance. If it is an SP1 lower (aka original M16 slab side) then an AR15 Heavy barreled upper receiver was installed on it. Either way, it's a franken gun and should be described in as much detail as possible. MoviePropMaster2008 04:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- It's a franken gun. We all know that. But we can't call it an M16A2 because of the lower receiver. I'm talking about the whole receiver here. The A1 lower and the A2 lower are almost the same thing. Except for the grip if you can say that the grip is part of the receiver. But the uppers are very different. I can tell the difference between the M16A2 and the M16 in Heat because of the upper receiver. The M16A2 upper has an Brass defletor and an different rear sight while the M16A1 upper has no deflector and a different sight. Of course I don't really know if the barrel is part of the upper receiver or if it can be removed. I also don't know if the sights can be separeted from the A1 or the A2 receiver, though.--Oliveira 17:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Huh? The only difference between an A1 and A2 lower receiver (other than the 3 round burst) is that the back end of the A2 receiver is slightly fatter to resist cracking the ring that holds the rear buffer tube. How can you tell it's an A1 lower? I have to HOLD the two together in person in order to see the difference. Now if it's an SP1 lower, then that can be seen from a distance. If it is an SP1 lower (aka original M16 slab side) then an AR15 Heavy barreled upper receiver was installed on it. Either way, it's a franken gun and should be described in as much detail as possible. MoviePropMaster2008 04:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Video Game
- I hope it actually gets made [1]
- I don't know. Movie games tend to suck. It hasn't had a really good track record Excalibur01 05:33, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's usually when games are released the same day the movie is, causing the developers to rush-S&Wshooter 00:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
True. The Godfather games are good but they were able to take their time on both of them.--Jcordell 09:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Reorganizing Page
What do people think about reorganizing page by weapons? Since this is one of the most popular pages, I wanted to see if it's okay before I do it. --Ben41 18:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, it wouldn't be a bad idea. -MT2008 18:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- What do you have in mind for order? Excalibur01\\
I was thinking by type of gun.--Ben41 10:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- With a Page that gets so many views from the general public, I was theorizing about a change in how we normally organize sections. Previously we did it from smallest to largest (Pistols, SMGs, Assault rifles/Rifles, Shotguns, LMGs, HMGs, Destructive Devices, Misc) But the MOST asked questions in the blogosphere/internet deals with the assault rifles used in the street shootout. That one scene spawns the most questions asked by the general (and generally gun ignorant public), so I was wondering if we should begin the page with the most asked about weapons (Assault rifles, SMGS, Shotguns, handguns), basically going in reverse order for this one page. Most of the curiosity revolves around Al Pacino's FNC and the Colt 733s used in the fight. Just a thought. MoviePropMaster2008 19:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- BTW, I'm getting a photo of a REAL 733 tonight. Keep an eye out! WOO HOO! (the previous pic was one of my guns that was just a chopped carbine (when I bought it) so the pic is actually a fake 733, just like the C&C HK94s or the fake MP5Ks made from SP89s) MoviePropMaster2008 19:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Why not organizing guns by order of appearance? Excalibur01
Since this is a reference site, I find that it's easier to look it up by the type of weapon rather than by trying to remember when a particular weapon appeared in the film. This doesn't have to be the case for every film, but one with so many weapons featured, I think the way MPM talked about would work best. Let me know what the consensus is. --Ben41 02:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Ben41. For pages with 10+ guns I find that it is easier to look for something if it is categorized by type, especially when there are so many screencaps per weapon. --Markit 02:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- What about type of guns and in each section, you list guns by order of appearance? Excalibur01
Hanna is shooting at Shiherlis
In this image, the caption said that Hanna was shooting at no one and looks to be firing at bystanders. In reality, this shot was taken at the exact same time Shiherlis stopped shooting and finally got into the getaway care, and when the suppressing fire from Shiherlis stopped, Hanna came out of cover to shoot back, only to see Shiherlis wasn't there anymore. In my opinion, Hanna seems to be shooting at where Shiherlis was a moment ago before he stepped into the car. The camera angle makes it appear he's shooting directly ahead, when he is shooting towards the getaway car. Excalibur01 04:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
This is definitely a camera angle quirk, my guess is that he is firing at the back window of the vehicle.--Jackie.45Cal 10:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
If you look closely, you can see that Shiherlis isn't in the car yet. Watch the film closely, and you see that Hanna opens fire as soon as Shiherlis opens the car door. --TheDon 15:54, 16 March 2011 (CDT)
Organizing
I'm just organizing some pages. I'm not changing the text or screencaps, but I'm anal and I am grouping the firearms by type. --Jcordell 21:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Andy McNab training
I just saw the behind the scenes feature and I didn't know the famous SAS operator, Andy McNab was behind the training for the De Niro and his bank robber characters and a different SAS guy, Mike Gould, training for police did Al Picino and his guys Excalibur01 14:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
well for an actor , al pacino dose a lot of running in the down town shootout.simmons 8492
What does that have to do with the training he and the other actors recieved? --Jcordell 00:48, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
well obviously he had to train for that scean, im sure all the actors did , im just suprised that he did it and wasnt needing oxygen after. just saying. simmons 8492
- Oh got ya. Actually Pacino should have been sweating and breathing hard at the end of the bank robbery gunfight. He might also have been shaking a little bit from all the adrenalin blasting through his body. Oh well movie magic. --Jcordell 02:44, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
In the movie both Hanna and McCauley are former marines (Nate's intel on Hanna and McCauley's arm tat when he wakes up at Eady's). --Devang.dn 02:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
put pacino and De Niro arent , so that SAS trainer realy got them in shape. simmons 8492
And you have to think movie production. They do scenes, especially big shootout scenes in sections and not one big go...Most of the time. They also do a lot of retakes as well as position the camera on different angles so it looked like they ran farther than they actually did. Excalibur01 14:22, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Not sure where I read this but the whole scene was filmed within a block or two , due to camera tricks it looks like they covered a lots of distance. --Devang.dn 16:56, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thats true , but mann isint like those others . he dosent do the whole cut up shit . he probable had them redo it to get it right . simmons 8492
- It's very well-known that McNab and Gould were the weapons/tactics advisers on this movie. Gould also makes a cameo in the film. -MT2008 13:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
who dose he play? simmons 8492
In the film we know that both Hanna and McCauley were former US Marines, but would a Marine receive the extent of training needed to be proficient in CQB as portrayed by the two main characters in the film? I mean think about it; Hanna and McCauley would have joined the Marine Corp probably during the 70's or early 80'. Now I am unfamiliar with how exactly US Army and Marine Corp trained soldiers during that time in regards to trigger discipline and CQB, but I know that the training soldiers receive now in CQB is different then the CQB training given in the past. When I asked my father, who joined the Army as an Infantry officer in the late 70's, about the training he received in regards to CQB he told me he didn't really receive CQB training at all. I know that special forces groups such as the British SAS were masters in CQB during those eras but what about regular infantry? I also know that Hanna would have received more training throughout his career as a cop, but what about McCauley? I point out McCauley cause he probably would have left the Marine Corps sometime in the mid 80's, and started his criminal career most likely after he got out. AND YES I KNOW THIS IS JUST A MOVIE. -Choi117
- Ok, Marine training is a little different from the regular army. I've heard from the older Marines I know about how they joke how the Army "ain't shit" compared to them. The Marines have always been a bit more specialized than the Army since WWII. McCauley most likely honed his CQB tactics during his career as a robber. Obviously he and the others on his team had worked long enough as a unit 02:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
first off , damm second im sure the marines trained him well enough in CQB . i mean being out of the service dosent realy matter . muscel memory kicks in and McCauly rembers all the things he was taught and does them without even thing . simmons 8492
first off , let me just say that heat is one of the best fims , second the entire LA bank job and shoot out , from when De Nero walks in to the bank , til pacino kills Tom sizemore is easly the best shootout in film history . and the training the entire cast went threw is mind blowing , al pacino running to De Neros CQB training , michael mann did an outstanding job . it is my opnion that this is movie gold. simmons 8492
i know this is a bit out of place , but i was watching this last night and wanted to know , when hanna is looking for McCauley in the airfield he fires his sidearm 4 time with three rounds in a nice triangular shape . my question is , where did his first round hit ? once again , i know this is out of place but i fiugred he would have been trained where to shoot him . simmons 8492
- Something else that often goes overlooked. A person can teach themselves. I periodically practice room clearing and CQB on my own.I practice drawing my Glock from different positions (sitting, laying on my gun side, drawing with my weak hand), reloading with one hand, and so on. It isn't at all uncommon for criminals (the more serious ones) to practice or train on their own. Whose to say that McCauly wouldn't do that?
Also I spent several years in the U.S. Army and we got our share of CQB training. Building clearing, break contact drills, immediate action drills, small unit tactics etc. And I wasn't infantry. I was Military Intelligence assigned to the 10th Mountain Division. We received probably just a third of the training that the infantry battalions did in the division. Yes the Marines are good, but they aren't Supermen. --Jcordell 22:37, 17 March 2012 (CDT)
Cheritto's Galil
What confused me during the bank shootout was that unlike his partners Chris and McCauley who were armed with Colt 733s, why was Cheritto armed with an IMI Galil ARM during the bank robbery? The person who wrote the Colt 733 section gave a good description of why the crew used Colt 733s in the bank job. However, no one really gave a good reason why Cheritto was armed with a rifle that was a longer barrel and even with its buttstock folded sticked out underneath his blazer when exiting from the bank. Was there a practical tactical reason for Cheritto to be armed with the Galil or did the production simply didn't have enough Colt 733s? Choi117
- Story-wise, the answer is probably that McCauley's crew was unable to purchase enough ARs for all of them. Behind the scenes, my guess is that Michael Mann just really wanted to have a Galil in the movie. Of course, there are short-barreled versions of the Galil available, which would have made more sense for concealment purposes, but maybe Stembridge (the company which supplied the weapons for Heat) didn't have any short-barreled Galils in stock. Any way, short answer is that there is probably no practical reason. This is a movie. You are over-thinking it too much.
- On a side note, the original script had them all using HK53s. -MT2008 16:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Isn't the Galil ARM pretty much a light machine gun variant of the AR and can substan more automatic fire than most light barreled assualt rifle? Maybe the needed some sort of support gunner as he does have five more bullets in his mags and can lay down fire much more than your standard M733.---P226 21:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Too bad we didn't see much shots of him in the movie using the Galil. It would have been nice Excalibur01 20:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Yeah. Heh, guess we have Pacino to blame for the Galil's lack of use.--TheDon 23:19, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Well Cheritto isn't the top character, he isn't even top billing. Otherwise, he would have been on the movie poster Excalibur01 03:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Just so happened that this movie was an TV tonight, and I turned on just after the shoot-out started. Would I be correct in assuming that the Galil that is used is a semi automatic only conversion? It seems that he only ever fires with it in SA, and considering the prolific use of full auto by the other characters, if this gun was capable he would have fired in full auto also. It makes the choice of gun even stranger, considering it rules out the possibility that he was using it as a sort of LSW as the original ARM was intended. Suppose it could just be personal preference, also to the layman the Galil has the look of an "Evil" gun, and is used by the sort of person who picks up a child as a shield. This contrasts with the other two more sympathetic robbers, who use the "Good" looking Armalite type weapons. --Commando552 22:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think the Galil looks like an "evil" gun? It has an exotic look and feel to it but not "evil" about it. We also don't get any real character development from Cheritto than we do for the other two guys on the team. If you remember the opening armored car robbery, he was using a FAL while the other 2 veterans had their AR-15s Excalibur01 02:32, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but you are not the layman in terms of guns. I do not see at as an "evil" gun either, but to the majority of the public, the Galil looks like an AK, so looks evil. Was just my take on the character that he was less sympathetic than the other two, and was a more traditional "bad guy", so this gun was more suited to him. --Commando552 17:13, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Odd
Has anyone else noticed that, despite his character being married, Pacino is not wearing a wedding ring? I know it's not gun related, I just find this odd, and want to know if anyone else has seen this.--TheDon 00:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Not odd at all...first its a marriage that isnt so good and second he is a high profile police officer that doesnt need the add attention of a wedding ring.--Spades of Columbia 02:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Huh. The first reason I get, get would a wedding really attract more attention than the big ass ring on his right hand?--TheDon 19:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
To a bad guy...a wedding ring on your enemies hand means leverage.--Spades of Columbia 20:39, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Then doesn't him flat out telling De Niro's character that he's married defeat the purpose?--TheDon 18:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
its like what denzel washington said in training day . a criminal sees that and uses it against you. and i think he tells him that so that MCcally that will either make a personial connection or make him tell hanna something about himself.-simmons 8492
Edited Muzzle Flash
Just an interesting tidbit here. The third Screencap in the Star Megamaster section shows Waingrow shooting an armored car driver in the head. The muzzle flash is clearly shown. However, if you look closely at the back of the gun itself, the hammer is still cocked. I guess it was too dangerous to fire a blank that close to the actors head, even if the shooter aimed over the target's shoulder. August.allocco 20:01, 25 April 2011 (CDT)