Talk:Murderers' Row: Difference between revisions
Talk:Murderers' Row: Difference between revisions - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games
Talk:Murderers' Row: Difference between revisions
Thought Wall's Gyrojet fires harpoon darts, it's not a Lancejet that looks [http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100501153706/guns/images/thumb/d/d3/Lancejet.jpg/640px-Lancejet.jpg different]. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 17:25, 7 August 2014 (EDT)
Thought Wall's Gyrojet fires harpoon darts, it's not a Lancejet that looks [http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100501153706/guns/images/thumb/d/d3/Lancejet.jpg/640px-Lancejet.jpg different]. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 17:25, 7 August 2014 (EDT)
:Another point about the Gyrojets, I do not think that the "pepperbox" is a genuine Gyrojet. Here is the only picture I can find of this variant, being help by the inventor Robert Mainhardt:[[File:Gyrojet volley gun.jpg|thumb|400px|none|]]As you can see the real variant did have 12 barrels an alothough similar, is definitely different to gun used in the movie. If nothing else, the vast majority of Gyrojet guns were chambered in 13mm or 12mm, and this gun has much smaller barrels. It is possible that it could be 6mm, but I think this was only used for a few dozen experimental assault rifles that were given to the US army so I doubt it is that. Also, it seems to have a needless amount of metal around the barrels with too much space between them. The real version has barrels made from very thin metal and were tightly packed together, which was possible due to the fact that it had an incredibly low chamber pressure. Also, just pointing out that pedantically this isn't a pepperbox pistol, but instead is a volley pistol. The difference is that a pepperbox has barrels which rotate on a centre axis to fire in sequence, as opposed to this which fires all barrels at the same time. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 09:31, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
:Another point about the Gyrojets, I do not think that the "pepperbox" is a genuine Gyrojet. Here is the only picture I can find of this variant, being held by the inventor Robert Mainhardt:[[File:Gyrojet volley gun.jpg|thumb|400px|none|]]As you can see the real variant did have 12 barrels an alothough similar, is definitely different to gun used in the movie. If nothing else, the vast majority of Gyrojet guns were chambered in 13mm or 12mm, and this gun has much smaller barrels. It is possible that it could be 6mm, but I think this was only used for a few dozen experimental assault rifles that were given to the US army so I doubt it is that. Also, it seems to have a needless amount of metal around the barrels with too much space between them. The real version has barrels made from very thin metal and were tightly packed together, which was possible due to the fact that it had an incredibly low chamber pressure. Also, just pointing out that pedantically this isn't a pepperbox pistol, but instead is a volley pistol. The difference is that a pepperbox has barrels which rotate on a centre axis to fire in sequence, as opposed to this which fires all barrels at the same time. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 09:31, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
::Thank you, it's all seem reasonable. So I was too gullible when I found numerous statements about Gyrojet Pepperbox in ''Murderers' Row''. So the screen gun is a pure fictional movie prop, right? [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 09:53, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
::Thank you, it's all seem reasonable. So I was too gullible when I found numerous statements about Gyrojet Pepperbox in ''Murderers' Row''. So the screen gun is a pure fictional movie prop, right? [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 09:53, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
:::My guess is that it is a prop, but there is so little info about the various Gyrojets that I suppose it could be possible that it is a real prototype weapon. To me though, it has the ''look'' of a prop gun, looking a bit too simple and sleek, especially considering that these pistols were pure prototypes and were never produced (they were also only ever intended as a specialist military weapon for mowing down a pack of VC in one shot so I doubt they would look this "nice" for lack of a better term). Also, based on how the Gyrojets work, I imagine it is very difficult to actually get one to fire blanks (I have no idea how they manage it with the standard carbines and pistols in other movies, probably just a pyrotechnic in the barrel and no actual round at all), so it might actually be easier to just build a prop from scratch. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 10:35, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
:::My guess is that it is a prop, but there is so little info about the various Gyrojets that I suppose it could be possible that it is a real prototype weapon. To me though, it has the ''look'' of a prop gun, looking a bit too simple and sleek, especially considering that these pistols were pure prototypes and were never produced (they were also only ever intended as a specialist military weapon for mowing down a pack of VC in one shot so I doubt they would look this "nice" for lack of a better term). Also, based on how the Gyrojets work, I imagine it is very difficult to actually get one to fire blanks (I have no idea how they manage it with the standard carbines and pistols in other movies, probably just a pyrotechnic in the barrel and no actual round at all), so it might actually be easier to just build a prop from scratch. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 10:35, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
::::I changed [[Murderers'_Row#Volley_Pistol|the description]] of this gun. Does it look correct now? [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 11:01, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
::::I changed [[Murderers'_Row#Volley_Pistol|the description]] of this gun. Does it look correct now? [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 11:01, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
:::I watched that scene from ''Murderers' Row'' today and I'm not entirely convinced that it's a prop. At one point, there's rocket plumes coming off the gun in the shots with Karl Malden, so I'm still unsure if it might a pyrotechnic gag with a guide wire or a live fire weapon.<br />BTW, the 12-shot pepperbox version does appear in ''[[You Only Live Twice]]'', in Tiger Tanaka's introduction to the Gyrojet guns to Bond. It's on the table, between the Gyrojet Rifles and Gyrojet Carbines. <br />[[File:Yoltw-mba1.jpg]]<br />--[[User:Blitzen|Blitzen]] ([[User talk:Blitzen|talk]]) 18:55, 17 January 2016 (EST)--[[User:Blitzen|Blitzen]] ([[User talk:Blitzen|talk]]) 18:55, 17 January 2016 (EST)
==Bolomauser?==
==Bolomauser?==
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Line 11:
Thank you very, very much for doing a great piece on ''Murderers' Row''. I believe Helm's AR-7 variation is a Hy Hunter Bolomauser, as the weapons in ''The Ambushers'' are Hunter AR-7 variants. I hope their are pieces on all the films in that great series.[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] ([[User talk:Foofbun|talk]]) 06:01, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
Thank you very, very much for doing a great piece on ''Murderers' Row''. I believe Helm's AR-7 variation is a Hy Hunter Bolomauser, as the weapons in ''The Ambushers'' are Hunter AR-7 variants. I hope their are pieces on all the films in that great series.[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] ([[User talk:Foofbun|talk]]) 06:01, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
:Well, I found out that I was wrong: Charter Arms started manufacturing of AR-7 only in 1973, so the screen gun cannot be Explorer II. But as Hy Hunter Bolomauser and Charter Arms Explorer II look just the same and both perfectly fit the screen gun, I think that we can keep the existing image with an addition that it's another but same looking gun. Thank you for clarification. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 06:22, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
:Well, I found out that I was wrong: Charter Arms started manufacturing of AR-7 only in 1973, so the screen gun cannot be Explorer II. But as Hy Hunter Bolomauser and Charter Arms Explorer II look just the same and both perfectly fit the screen gun, I think that we can keep the existing image with an addition that it's another but same looking gun. Thank you for clarification. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 06:22, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
<br clear=all>
::(The photos now with the article are much improved over what I remember.) From the grip of the movie gun (resembling a Thompson grip) I suspect that is a cut-down Hy Hunter T-62 Civilian Defense Carbine stock without the shoulder piece. The grip of the Hy Hunter Bolomauser was a closer match to the C96 Broomhandle uh broom handle and had impressed upper side panels to mimic the relief cuts in the C96 frame. The Charter Explorer II grip frame stores a spare magazine and is considerably larger than the C96. If they adapted the T-62 stock to fit a Hy Hunter Bolomauser pistol, no foul, but 1950s and 1960s movie and TV studio prop departments cut down rifles ("Wanted Dead or Alive") or made full auto conversions ("Man from UNCLE") and got wakeup calls in the form of fines from ATTD (precursor of BATF). --[[User:Carl N. Brown|Carl N. Brown]] ([[User talk:Carl N. Brown|talk]]) 11:14, 16 December 2018 (EST)
:::Honestly, the images have not changed from the moment when I uploaded them in 2014 =) May I ask you to make appropriate corrections? Thanks in advance! [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 11:36, 16 December 2018 (EST)
==Thank you, gentlemen==
==Thank you, gentlemen==
[[File:Yolt-1.jpg|thumb|800px|left]]
[[File:Yolt-1.jpg|thumb|800px|left]]
Thank you very much for your efforts to educate us. Enclosed is a piece from a magazine promoting ''[[You Only Live Twice]]'' that featured several concepts that did not make it to the completed film. The same magazine did a similiar piece on ''[[Thunderball]]'' showing a variety of interesting dart guns that weren't in the completed film.
<br clear=all>
Thank you very much for your efforts to educate us. Enclosed is a piece from ''Esquire'' magazine promoting ''[[You Only Live Twice]]'' that featured several concepts that did not make it to the completed film. The same magazine did a similiar piece on ''[[Thunderball]]'' showing a variety of interesting dart guns that weren't in the completed film.
My theory is both Irwin Allen and his former partner Cubby Broccoli (and Harry Saltzman) saw the 1966 piece in ''Life'' magazine on MBA and the Gyrojet weapons. Interesting how ''Murderers' Row'' beat YOLT to the post and also started the film with Matt Helm having a faked death and a trick cigarette. Also interesting how the Bond films of the '70s resembled the Helm films of the '60s (jokey villains, even the golden bullet on the poster of ''[[The Man with the Golden Gun]]'' resembling the "Matt Helm" bullet in the pre-credits sequence of ''[[The Silencers]]'' with Jaws meeting his demise in ''[[The Spy Who Loved Me]]'' in a similar manner to Ironhead in ''Murderers' Row''.[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] ([[User talk:Foofbun|talk]]) 19:09, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
My theory is both Irwin Allen and his former partner Cubby Broccoli (and Harry Saltzman) saw the 1966 piece in ''Life'' magazine on MBA and the Gyrojet weapons. Interesting how ''Murderers' Row'' beat YOLT to the post and also started the film with Matt Helm having a faked death and a trick cigarette. Also interesting how the Bond films of the '70s resembled the Helm films of the '60s (jokey villains, even the golden bullet on the poster of ''[[The Man with the Golden Gun]]'' resembling the "Matt Helm" bullet in the pre-credits sequence of ''[[The Silencers]]'' with Jaws meeting his demise in ''[[The Spy Who Loved Me]]'' in a similar manner to Ironhead in ''Murderers' Row''.[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] ([[User talk:Foofbun|talk]]) 19:09, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
<br clear=all>
==MAB P-15?==
Could the mystery pistol used by the police in their vehicle be an [[MAB PA-15]]? The weapon came out in 1966 and though Dino refused to go to Europe, second unit action sequences were shot in France and the Isle of Wight (hovercraft and helicopter scenes, the latter the same one that flew the Beatles out at the end of ''A Hard Day's Night'')[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] ([[User talk:Foofbun|talk]]) 18:54, 9 August 2014 (EDT)
:As for me, this pistol resembles more some Beretta model (maybe [[Beretta M1934]]). If my eyes doesn't mistake, it has typical Beretta open top slide. But maybe I'm wrong. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 03:12, 10 August 2014 (EDT)
==2nd Guess==
Is it a [[MAS M1935S]]?
:Hardly. The screen pistol has a flat top without raised rear sight that it typical for 35S. I think that it's most likely a Beretta, maybe [[Beretta M1934]] but it's still a guess. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 01:28, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
Thought Wall's Gyrojet fires harpoon darts, it's not a Lancejet that looks different. Greg-Z (talk) 17:25, 7 August 2014 (EDT)
Another point about the Gyrojets, I do not think that the "pepperbox" is a genuine Gyrojet. Here is the only picture I can find of this variant, being held by the inventor Robert Mainhardt:Error creating thumbnail: File missingAs you can see the real variant did have 12 barrels an alothough similar, is definitely different to gun used in the movie. If nothing else, the vast majority of Gyrojet guns were chambered in 13mm or 12mm, and this gun has much smaller barrels. It is possible that it could be 6mm, but I think this was only used for a few dozen experimental assault rifles that were given to the US army so I doubt it is that. Also, it seems to have a needless amount of metal around the barrels with too much space between them. The real version has barrels made from very thin metal and were tightly packed together, which was possible due to the fact that it had an incredibly low chamber pressure. Also, just pointing out that pedantically this isn't a pepperbox pistol, but instead is a volley pistol. The difference is that a pepperbox has barrels which rotate on a centre axis to fire in sequence, as opposed to this which fires all barrels at the same time. --commando552 (talk) 09:31, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
Thank you, it's all seem reasonable. So I was too gullible when I found numerous statements about Gyrojet Pepperbox in Murderers' Row. So the screen gun is a pure fictional movie prop, right? Greg-Z (talk) 09:53, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
My guess is that it is a prop, but there is so little info about the various Gyrojets that I suppose it could be possible that it is a real prototype weapon. To me though, it has the look of a prop gun, looking a bit too simple and sleek, especially considering that these pistols were pure prototypes and were never produced (they were also only ever intended as a specialist military weapon for mowing down a pack of VC in one shot so I doubt they would look this "nice" for lack of a better term). Also, based on how the Gyrojets work, I imagine it is very difficult to actually get one to fire blanks (I have no idea how they manage it with the standard carbines and pistols in other movies, probably just a pyrotechnic in the barrel and no actual round at all), so it might actually be easier to just build a prop from scratch. --commando552 (talk) 10:35, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
I changed the description of this gun. Does it look correct now? Greg-Z (talk) 11:01, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
I watched that scene from Murderers' Row today and I'm not entirely convinced that it's a prop. At one point, there's rocket plumes coming off the gun in the shots with Karl Malden, so I'm still unsure if it might a pyrotechnic gag with a guide wire or a live fire weapon. BTW, the 12-shot pepperbox version does appear in You Only Live Twice, in Tiger Tanaka's introduction to the Gyrojet guns to Bond. It's on the table, between the Gyrojet Rifles and Gyrojet Carbines. --Blitzen (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2016 (EST)--Blitzen (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2016 (EST)
Thank you very, very much for doing a great piece on Murderers' Row. I believe Helm's AR-7 variation is a Hy Hunter Bolomauser, as the weapons in The Ambushers are Hunter AR-7 variants. I hope their are pieces on all the films in that great series.Foofbun (talk) 06:01, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
Well, I found out that I was wrong: Charter Arms started manufacturing of AR-7 only in 1973, so the screen gun cannot be Explorer II. But as Hy Hunter Bolomauser and Charter Arms Explorer II look just the same and both perfectly fit the screen gun, I think that we can keep the existing image with an addition that it's another but same looking gun. Thank you for clarification. Greg-Z (talk) 06:22, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
(The photos now with the article are much improved over what I remember.) From the grip of the movie gun (resembling a Thompson grip) I suspect that is a cut-down Hy Hunter T-62 Civilian Defense Carbine stock without the shoulder piece. The grip of the Hy Hunter Bolomauser was a closer match to the C96 Broomhandle uh broom handle and had impressed upper side panels to mimic the relief cuts in the C96 frame. The Charter Explorer II grip frame stores a spare magazine and is considerably larger than the C96. If they adapted the T-62 stock to fit a Hy Hunter Bolomauser pistol, no foul, but 1950s and 1960s movie and TV studio prop departments cut down rifles ("Wanted Dead or Alive") or made full auto conversions ("Man from UNCLE") and got wakeup calls in the form of fines from ATTD (precursor of BATF). --Carl N. Brown (talk) 11:14, 16 December 2018 (EST)
Honestly, the images have not changed from the moment when I uploaded them in 2014 =) May I ask you to make appropriate corrections? Thanks in advance! Greg-Z (talk) 11:36, 16 December 2018 (EST)
Thank you very much for your efforts to educate us. Enclosed is a piece from Esquire magazine promoting You Only Live Twice that featured several concepts that did not make it to the completed film. The same magazine did a similiar piece on Thunderball showing a variety of interesting dart guns that weren't in the completed film.
My theory is both Irwin Allen and his former partner Cubby Broccoli (and Harry Saltzman) saw the 1966 piece in Life magazine on MBA and the Gyrojet weapons. Interesting how Murderers' Row beat YOLT to the post and also started the film with Matt Helm having a faked death and a trick cigarette. Also interesting how the Bond films of the '70s resembled the Helm films of the '60s (jokey villains, even the golden bullet on the poster of The Man with the Golden Gun resembling the "Matt Helm" bullet in the pre-credits sequence of The Silencers with Jaws meeting his demise in The Spy Who Loved Me in a similar manner to Ironhead in Murderers' Row.Foofbun (talk) 19:09, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
MAB P-15?
Could the mystery pistol used by the police in their vehicle be an MAB PA-15? The weapon came out in 1966 and though Dino refused to go to Europe, second unit action sequences were shot in France and the Isle of Wight (hovercraft and helicopter scenes, the latter the same one that flew the Beatles out at the end of A Hard Day's Night)Foofbun (talk) 18:54, 9 August 2014 (EDT)
As for me, this pistol resembles more some Beretta model (maybe Beretta M1934). If my eyes doesn't mistake, it has typical Beretta open top slide. But maybe I'm wrong. Greg-Z (talk) 03:12, 10 August 2014 (EDT)
Hardly. The screen pistol has a flat top without raised rear sight that it typical for 35S. I think that it's most likely a Beretta, maybe Beretta M1934 but it's still a guess. Greg-Z (talk) 01:28, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
