Talk:Matewan: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 14:33, 26 May 2014

Matewan(1987) is the dramatised account of the 1920 battle that occurred during a coal strike in Matewan, West Virginia.
David Strathairn performs as sheriff Sid Hatfield who defends the town from the invading hired guns.

Firearm	Actor	Scene
Colt Revolvers	David Strathairn	Final Shootout
S&W Model 10 Revolver	Kevin Tighe	Final Shootout
Shotgun	Mary Mcdonnell	Final Shootout
Colt SAA	James Earl Jones	Kill Joe Kenehan
Bolt Action Rifle	Will Oldham	Final Shootout

Rifle

The rifle doesn't look like an M1903, rather some sort of Mauser. --Funkychinaman (talk) 02:57, 18 May 2014 (EDT)

Is this image flipped? --Funkychinaman (talk) 23:25, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

No, the image is at it appears in the film. There are flipped versions of it out there though ... http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.montgomerycollege.edu%2FDepartments%2Fhpolscrv%2Fknowlandl7.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.montgomerycollege.edu%2Fdepartments%2Fhpolscrv%2Fknowlandl.html&h=306&w=450&tbnid=KMkqiwUelsWQmM%3A&zoom=1&docid=x-PAleBSochH7M&ei=beV6U56XNcqMkwWRjYGwBQ&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CF4QMygLMAs&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=582&page=1&start=0&ndsp=13

--686P (talk) 01:18, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

I'm not saying you flipped it, but it does appear to be flipped, since you can't see the bolt handle, and military bolt-action rifles almost always came right-handed. The screenshot you uploaded previously appears to be correct, since you can see the bolt handle clearly. --Funkychinaman (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

I'm not sure it's even the same gun. This image is one of the reasons I initially posted it as a Springfield. The harness buckle is missing in the second shot.--686P (talk) 09:11, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

It's probably on the left side of the gun. The only reason you could see it in the first one is because the first one is flipped. (Flipped images are not uncommon.) --Funkychinaman (talk) 11:56, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

There also seems to be a ramrod, not present on the rail image. --686P (talk) 12:29, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

I reversed the image and I see your point now. I agree about the harness buckle, it's slightly evident in the right handed riverside shot (I've reviewed several subsequent frames where it becomes clear). He's also right handed which explains his shooting from the left shoulder in the reverse image. Subsequent railside shots show the ramrod reappearing.--686P (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

A bit of trivia which may explain the use of Mausers in the film: it seems a popular rifle used for bear hunting by the people living in the area was the 11mm Vetterli bought from surplus dealers such as Bannerman's. Obviously, using Mausers with much more available ammo/blanks was easier than scrounging around for the old Vetterlis.--Tecolote (talk) 23:49, 21 May 2014 (EDT)

Good explanation. The Vetterli info is consistent with my research. Heaps were available at the time and dirt cheap.--686P (talk) 01:54, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

I'm fairly sure that the two rifles pictured above are not the same gun. I'll address the train track image first, to say that I do not think it is a Chilean Mauser, but rather just a standard Karabiner 98k. If you look at the gap between the two barrel bands you will see that it is way too small for a Chilean M1895, but is correct for a Kar 98K. Also note the traditional style bayonet lug under the barrel which was absent from the M1895, instead having a front barrel band with the bayonet lug attached to the bottom. The front sight also appears to be the 98K ramped one rather than the parallel front/back one used on the Chilean Mausers. As for the second image above, this isn't a Kar 98K as the gap between the barrel bands is too large and it has the bayonet lug attached to the bottom of the front barrel band. I am not 100% sure it is an M1895 short rifle though, it could also be an M1916 Spanish Mauser. I don't know enough about Mausers to tell the difference from this shot, but I would probably lean more towards the Spanish Muaser as it looks like the cutout in the wood for the rear sight is pretty large which was a feature of the M1916. The real identifier would be if you can see if it has that little plate just behind the grip as I think this would positively identify it as a Chilean M1895 short rifle.--commando552 (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

IDs

Kevin Tighe's revolver appears to be a Colt rather a S&W, and James Earl Jones' revolver appears to be a Single Action Army. --Funkychinaman (talk) 01:17, 19 May 2014 (EDT) It is a .38 Colt Army Special(period correct) or the later Official Police.The image doesn't show the topstrap clearly enough to tell the difference. David Strathairn's Colts are not M1909s,which was a New Service which a sharkfin front sight and a lanyard ring. Both appear to Colt Official Polices, the righthand gun seems to be a 6 inch Heavy Barrel model which was introduced in 1936, while the left hand gun looks to have a 4 or 5 inch barrel. Neither have lanyard rings nor holes in the butt for one(I looked at a different still for the left hand gun)which you would see in a New Service. There is a photo of the real Hatfield posing with a 7.5 inch barreled New Service and a S&W with an apparent 5inch barrel; both guns appear to be nickel plated.--Tecolote (talk) 02:05, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

Agreed, Tighe's revolver shows a fully exposed ejector like the Colt New Army Models ... http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Colt_New_Army_%26_Navy --686P (talk) 05:06, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

I can't find a listing for Colt Army Special at this site though this video covers it ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spjHZaLs3cw --686P (talk) 05:34, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

In other parts of the movie, both David Strathairn's revolver barrels appear to be the same length.--686P (talk) 05:42, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

Many thanks for the feedback so far. --686P (talk) 06:24, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

Considering that this was a relatively low budget movie I think they did a good job having firearms that represent the time period and place. None of those models would be unlikely to have been found in West Virginia in 1920. --Jcordell (talk) 23:31, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

Also that Colt that Kevin Tighe is using is more than likely a pre-WWII Colt OP. I can tell by looking at the screw and retaining flange under the cylinder. Very nice touch. Often you will see characters using a later model Colt OP or S&W M&P (50's or 60's) in a movie that takes place in the 30's or early 40's. I'm impressed.--Jcordell (talk) 23:34, 19 May 2014 (EDT)

Many thanks everyone for the contributions and corrections. It's great to have information from the more experienced and knowledgeable members help make this page accurate. I think this is a great movie and really have no-one who can advise me on the firearms used, or their chronological accuracy, but for the help from the members here. --686P (talk) 01:36, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

For some reason,a Colt Police Positive Special is ID'd as Kevin Tighe's gun. While a PPS would almost certainly have been in Matewan during the actual events,Tighe is holding an Official Police(or Army Special).Taking into account lens distortion,the gun is too big to be a PPS, plus the retaining screw/flange is too far forward for a PPS, and the cylinder flutes are too wide. Granted, it is hard sometimes deciding between these two models, especially in older films, when the average male was significantly shorter than todays's, but after spending some time comparing the different models at various angles, I have to stick with the OP as my ID. In the shot of Hatfield's Colts in his holsters(which are period correct)the right hand gun has a postwar hammmer while the left hand gun has the checked prewar style;that gun could also be the one used by Tighe.Again as Jcordell points out it is actually pretty hard to find proper vintage pieces for any period film.They did a pretty god job on this film. In fact, when Hatfield draws his Colts and fires both at the same time, downing the pair of Baldwin-Fetts ops simutaneously, that is the technique taught by J."Fitz"Fitzgerald of Colt for shooting twos guns at once(Fitzgerald is best known for popularising the cut away trigger guard back in the day, and wrote about the two-gun tactic in his 1930 book "Shooting". He carried a pair of snubbed, cutaway .45 Colt New Services,BTW.--Tecolote (talk) 00:27, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

Lever action ID

I think this may actually be a Garate El Tigre, as it appears that there is a sling swivel on the rear barrel band, as well as the front sight being ahead of the front barrel band, both of which are features of the Garate El Tigre and not a real Wincehster Model 1892 "Saddle Ring" carbine. --commando552 (talk) 12:45, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

I see your point. I'll edit the page now.--686P (talk) 10:21, 23 May 2014 (EDT)

Please allow me repeat my thanks to all contributors for their help with this page. My first page and all my expectations have been exceeded .--686P (talk) 12:21, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

"An hired gun armed with a Winchester " Correct English uses "an" for a, e, i , o , u and h.--686P (talk) 08:18, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

It is not as simple as that and in this case it is incorrect to use "an" before a word like hired. Although there are words that start with h that you use an ahead of, this is because the h is unsounded. As you sound the "h" in hired you use "a". "H" words that you would use "an" for are only ones with an unsounded "h" like "hour" or "honest". There are some that can use both, but this changes the pronounciation such as "historical" which if you use "an" means it is pronounced "is-torical", but with "a" it is "his-torical". --commando552 (talk) 10:33, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{WIP}}
 '''''Matewan(1987)''''' is the dramatised account of the 1920 battle that occurred during a coal strike in Matewan, West Virginia.
 <br>
@@ Line 22: / Line 21: @@
 The rifle doesn't look like an M1903, rather some sort of Mauser. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 02:57, 18 May 2014 (EDT)
+:Is this image flipped? --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 23:25, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+[[Image: Matewan SM1903 cr.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
+No, the image is at it appears in the film. There are flipped versions of it out there  though ...
+http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.montgomerycollege.edu%2FDepartments%2Fhpolscrv%2Fknowlandl7.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.montgomerycollege.edu%2Fdepartments%2Fhpolscrv%2Fknowlandl.html&h=306&w=450&tbnid=KMkqiwUelsWQmM%3A&zoom=1&docid=x-PAleBSochH7M&ei=beV6U56XNcqMkwWRjYGwBQ&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CF4QMygLMAs&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=582&page=1&start=0&ndsp=13
+--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 01:18, 20 May 2014 (EDT)
+::I'm not saying you flipped it, but it does appear to be flipped, since you can't see the bolt handle, and military bolt-action rifles almost always came right-handed. The screenshot you uploaded previously appears to be correct, since you can see the bolt handle clearly. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 02:53, 20 May 2014 (EDT)
+[[Image:Vlcsnap-2014-04-12-03h06m52s20.JPG|thumb|none|600px|]]
+I'm not sure it's even the same gun. This image is one of the reasons I initially posted it as a Springfield. The harness buckle is missing in the second shot.--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 09:11, 20 May 2014 (EDT)
+:It's probably on the left side of the gun. The only reason you could see it in the first one is because the first one is flipped. (Flipped images are not uncommon.) --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 11:56, 20 May 2014 (EDT)
+There also seems to be a ramrod, not present on the rail image. --[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 12:29, 20 May 2014 (EDT)
+I reversed the image and I see your point now. I agree about the harness buckle, it's slightly evident in the right handed riverside shot (I've reviewed several subsequent frames where it becomes clear). He's also right handed which explains his shooting from the left shoulder in the reverse image. Subsequent railside shots show the ramrod reappearing.--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 13:05, 20 May 2014 (EDT)
+A bit of trivia which may explain the use of Mausers in the film: it seems a popular rifle used for bear hunting by the people living in the area was the 11mm Vetterli bought from surplus dealers such as Bannerman's. Obviously, using Mausers with much more available ammo/blanks was easier than scrounging around for the old Vetterlis.--[[User:Tecolote|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote|talk]]) 23:49, 21 May 2014 (EDT)
+Good explanation. The Vetterli info is consistent with my research. Heaps were available at the time and dirt cheap.--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 01:54, 22 May 2014 (EDT)
+:I'm fairly sure that the two rifles pictured above are not the same gun. I'll address the train track image first, to say that I do not think it is a Chilean Mauser, but rather just a standard Karabiner 98k. If you look at the gap between the two barrel bands you will see that it is way too small for a Chilean M1895, but is correct for a Kar 98K. Also note the traditional style bayonet lug under the barrel which was absent from the M1895, instead having a front barrel band with the bayonet lug attached to the bottom. The front sight also appears to be the 98K ramped one rather than the parallel front/back one used on the Chilean Mausers. As for the second image above, this isn't a Kar 98K as the gap between the barrel bands is too large and it has the bayonet lug attached to the bottom of the front barrel band. I am not 100% sure it is an M1895 short rifle though, it could also be an M1916 Spanish Mauser. I don't know enough about Mausers to tell the difference from this shot, but I would probably lean more towards the Spanish Muaser as it looks like the cutout in the wood for the rear sight is pretty large which was a feature of the M1916. The real identifier would be if you can see if it has that little plate just behind the grip as I think this would positively identify it as a Chilean M1895 short rifle.--[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 12:38, 22 May 2014 (EDT)
 == IDs ==
 Kevin Tighe's revolver appears to be a Colt rather a S&W, and James Earl Jones' revolver appears to be a Single Action Army. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 01:17, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+It is a .38 Colt Army Special(period correct) or the later Official Police.The image doesn't show the topstrap clearly enough to tell the difference.
+David Strathairn's Colts are not M1909s,which was a New Service which a sharkfin front sight and a lanyard ring. Both appear to Colt Official Polices, the righthand gun seems to be a 6 inch Heavy Barrel model which was introduced in 1936, while the left hand gun looks to have a 4 or 5 inch barrel. Neither have lanyard rings nor holes in the butt for one(I looked at a different still for the left hand gun)which you would see in a New Service. There is a photo of the real Hatfield posing with a 7.5 inch barreled New Service and a S&W with an apparent 5inch barrel; both guns appear to be nickel plated.--[[User:Tecolote|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote|talk]]) 02:05, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+Agreed, Tighe's revolver shows a fully exposed ejector like the Colt New Army Models ...
+http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Colt_New_Army_%26_Navy
+--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 05:06, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+I can't find a listing for Colt Army Special at this site though this video covers it ...
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spjHZaLs3cw
+--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 05:34, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+In other parts of the movie, both David Strathairn's revolver barrels appear to be the same length.--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 05:42, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+Many thanks for the feedback so far. --[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 06:24, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+Considering that this was a relatively low budget movie I think they did a good job having firearms that represent the time period and place. None of those models would be unlikely to have been found in West Virginia in 1920. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 23:31, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+Also that Colt that Kevin Tighe is using is more than likely a pre-WWII Colt OP. I can tell by looking at the screw and retaining flange under the cylinder. Very nice touch. Often you will see characters using a later model Colt OP or S&W M&P (50's or 60's) in a movie that takes place in the 30's or early 40's. I'm impressed.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 23:34, 19 May 2014 (EDT)
+Many thanks everyone for the contributions and corrections. It's great to have information from the more experienced and knowledgeable members help make this page accurate. I think this is a great movie and really have no-one who can advise me on the firearms used, or their chronological accuracy,  but for the help from the members here. --[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 01:36, 20 May 2014 (EDT)
+For some reason,a Colt Police Positive Special is ID'd as Kevin Tighe's gun. While a PPS would almost certainly have been in Matewan during the actual events,Tighe is holding an Official Police(or Army Special).Taking into account lens distortion,the gun is too big to be a PPS, plus the retaining screw/flange is too far forward for a PPS, and the cylinder flutes are too wide. Granted, it is hard sometimes deciding between these two models, especially in older films, when the average male was significantly shorter than todays's, but after spending some time comparing the
+different models at various angles, I have to stick with the OP as my ID. In the shot of Hatfield's Colts in his holsters(which are period correct)the right hand gun has a postwar hammmer while the left hand gun has the checked prewar style;that gun could also be the one used by Tighe.Again as Jcordell points out it is actually pretty hard to find proper vintage pieces for any period film.They did a pretty god job on this film. In fact, when Hatfield draws his Colts and fires both at the same time, downing the pair of Baldwin-Fetts ops simutaneously, that is the technique taught by J."Fitz"Fitzgerald of Colt for shooting twos guns at once(Fitzgerald is best known for popularising the cut away trigger guard back in the day, and wrote about the two-gun tactic in his 1930 book "Shooting". He carried a pair of snubbed, cutaway .45 Colt New Services,BTW.--[[User:Tecolote|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote|talk]]) 00:27, 22 May 2014 (EDT)
+== Lever action ID ==
+I think this may actually be a [[Garate El Tigre]], as it appears that there is a sling swivel on the rear barrel band, as well as the front sight being ahead of the front barrel band, both of which are features of the Garate El Tigre and not a real Wincehster Model 1892 "Saddle Ring" carbine.  --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 12:45, 22 May 2014 (EDT)
+I see your point. I'll edit the page now.--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 10:21, 23 May 2014 (EDT)
+Please allow me repeat my thanks to all contributors for their help with this page. My first page and all my expectations have been exceeded .--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 12:21, 24 May 2014 (EDT)
+"An hired gun armed with a Winchester " Correct English uses "an" for a, e, i , o , u and h.--[[User:686P|686P]] ([[User talk:686P|talk]]) 08:18, 26 May 2014 (EDT)
+:It is not as simple as that and in this case it is incorrect to use "an" before a word like hired. Although there are words that start with h that you use an ahead of, this is because the h is unsounded. As you sound the "h" in hired you use "a". "H" words that you would use "an" for are only ones with an unsounded "h" like "hour" or "honest". There are some that can use both, but this changes the pronounciation such as "historical" which if you use "an" means it is pronounced "is-torical", but with "a" it is "his-torical".  --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 10:33, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

Talk:Matewan: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 14:33, 26 May 2014

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