Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom PainTalk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video GamesTalk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
This thing has been festering longer than people think. I just discovered that the Konami's Frankengunning of MGS has been in effect since 2012, beginning with Metal Gear Solid - Social Ops, a 3D mobile game that released exclusively in Japan for the iPhone and Android smartphones.
"MGS SOP" involves gameplay/re-enactment from the games Metal Gear Solid 3 - Snake Eater and Metal Gear Solid - Peace Walker. Social Ops was similar to the Metal Gear Acid series in terms of character movement and its use of items and weapons via trading cards.
For cards with rendered art (art not pulled straight from a game) - with few exceptions - the weapons are replaced with a counter-part from MGSV. For example, Old Snake from Metal Gear Solid 4 is seen holding a SVG-76 instead of a AK-102 or a AM-69 instead of a M4 Custom, and Peace Walker-era Snake is seen holding a AM-69 rather than a M16A1.
Also several newer promotional renders, along with several older ones (i.e. promotional images of Peace Walker) of previous games have had their previously real life weapons replaced with a Metal Gear Solid V equivalent.
For example - as stated previously; Big Boss with M16A1 from Peace Walker and Old Snake with M4 custom from MGS4 are now both shown holding AM Rifle Type 69 instead.
This is also seen on promotional images with The Legacy Collection that was released in Summer of 2013 worldwide. For example; In new HD render art of Solid Snake is seen with a Wu Silent Pistol in his holster instead of a Mk23 SOCOM.
The reasons for the changes are yet to be stated. It's claimed that Konami had gotten in legal problems with gun licencing for exploiting loopholes via Airsoft company Tokyo Marui partnership. Therefore they cannot use designs patented by major weapons manufacturers and can only use non-conflicting designs provided by Tokyo Marui. TrickShotFinn (talk) 12:49, 5 November 2014 (EST)
As I said before, call bullshit that Konami couldn't get image rights to use real life guns or that the AK variant is copyrighted. Is Russia knocking on Konami's doors about the image? Excalibur01 (talk) 23:01, 5 November 2014 (EST)
This is all getting pretty strange. How do you use an "airsoft loophole"? Claim that your ingame guns are just modelled after airsoft guns? Besides, wasn't there a court case that decided that "M4" is now a generic term (like "M1911") that can't be copyrighted/trademarked? Why can't Old Snake keep his, then? Did Konami face a major lawsuit? Or were licensing fees getting too expensive after Peace Walker? Or is Konami overreacting in some way? --Mazryonh (talk) 21:51, 8 November 2014 (EST)
Combination of gross overreaction and licensing expenses IMO. Though, it’s more likely that it’s MGS4’s – and not PW’s - gun licensing that came around to bite Konami in the ass.
If you ask me, the whole thing could very well be connected to something in Japanese law that we might not know about.
And yes, the “airsoft loophole” is "allegedly" a thing in Japan. It works by having some Airsoft manufacturer in sponsor-/partnership with the work in question, and if somebody starts blowing whistles they just can defend themselves by saying that they are promoting (Airsoft Manufacturer’s) product(s) and not actual firearm company's. (Ridiculous, I know.)
One of the most well-known exploiters of this has been Capcom’s Resident Evil/Bio Hazard. RE and Tokyo Marui have been connected since RE2, with partnership beginning since Capcom commissioned Tokyo Marui to release an Airsoft replicas of the in-game variations of the Desert Eagle wielded by Leon S. Kennedy. Resident Evil 5 is good a good example of “the loophole” in full force. If you take a good look of the RE5 arsenal and are aware what’s in Tokyo Marui’s catalog around 2009, you’ll notice that all the non-franken-/heavily edited guns have Tokyo Marui counterparts – with some exceptions. Same deal with RE Relevations 1, notably featuring the Smith & Wesson 3566 under the guise of Tokyo Marui’s “PC356” replica of the aforementioned pistol. Although judging from RE6, the “all frankenguns policy” has affected RE as well. TrickShotFinn (talk) 13:40, 11 November 2014 (EST)
Then what about the gun designs that can't be copyrighted/trademarked, like the M4, the M1911, or AK-style rifles? It does speak of "overreaction" as well. And what's keeping Konami from paying the licensing fees again? I don't think they're in financial trouble like Capcom and Sega currently are.--Mazryonh (talk) 01:45, 27 November 2014 (EST)
Considering all footage shown so far, showing relatively narrow arsenal assets, I'm willing to say pretty surely that it's the same MP9 as in Ground Zeroes. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 17:24, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
But whats the point of holding them sideways like that especially with the ejection port facing up.--Mr.Ice (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
I assume however, it could be held sideways because they are so densely packed together, using it as a method of evading to shower their mates with hot brass. I'm puzzled as to why they are holding them ejection port upwards, but it could be some recoil controlling technique perhaps even a depiction of the C.A.R. technique. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 18:03, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
You are thinking about it too much, I would highly doubt that anyone involved in this decision has even heard of the CAR technique. My guess is that they are doing it because someone thinks it looks cool, particularly if you get to have the cases spraying upwards into the air showing off some nice physics. --commando552 (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
I don't know about the guns, but the stuff on the soldiers backs seem to resemble the fuel canisters for the M2 Flamethrower or a similar flamethrower. What I do know is that whatever the make, the backpack is undeniably a flamethrower weapon. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:50, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
I don't think they are, more likely they are air tanks as they appear to be wearing breathing apparatus. --commando552 (talk) 06:39, 29 March 2013 (EDT)
Found another gun image, it's from the last few seconds of the VGA trailer:
Don't know if its the same gun or a different gun, but still, hope I helped. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:57, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
The The Phantom Pain and Ground Zero is the same game. They've just announced that. So one of these pages has got to go Excalibur01 (talk) 19:47, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
The last I read (earlier today) "Ground Zeroes" is the prologue to "The Phantom Pain" which taken together make up MGS5, but they would not confirm whether or not they were shipping it as one game or two separate ones. --commando552 (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
Well, I advocated patience and just waiting for official word earlier, I don't know why people are in such a rush. --Funkychinaman (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
Yeah, here's a bit of a problem, though: Konami told GameSpot that they are two separate games. Jay Boor, director of PR, stated they are two separate games, and the official MGS facebook page (which is owned by Konami and Kojima Productions) not only stated they were two different games, they even quoted Kojima's twitter on it. We keep them separate. Pokeria1 (talk) 20:46, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
If they truly are separate games, then why does the new trailer contain footage from BOTH teasers and titled it MGS5 The Phantom Pain? Excalibur01 (talk) 21:57, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
If I recall correctly, Peace Walker and Portable Ops also contained footage from Metal Gear Solid 3 in their debut trailers, so I doubt it would mean much. Even if it did, it's likely that they are somewhat connected, but still separate games. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:59, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
I don't ever remember they using footage from MGS3 to advertise that the final product will look like Portable Ops or Peacewalker. The recent trailer did not even state they were two separate games. It didn't say Ground Zeroes once, it only titled itself as MGS5 The Phantom Pain. Excalibur01 (talk) 22:58, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
Both of these trailers showed footage from MGS3, at least at the beginning of the trailer. And the trailer may not have stated they were two separate games, but Konami and other official sources stated they are. Heck, even Kojima stated that the sequence he showed in TPP was actually the tutorial at the beginning of a game, despite claiming that Ground Zeroes was the prologue. The only way to claim both to be true is if they are indeed separate games. And besides, Kojima also stated that both Rising and Peace Walker were Metal Gear Solid 5 in interviews, even though back then it was clear as day they were separate games. Pokeria1 (talk) 23:16, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
I am still holding out that it's all misdirection on part of the creator. It seems odd to market 2 games at the same time. Are both going to be released at the same time? in one box? a year apart? There's a lot of questions from a production standpoint Excalibur01 (talk) 00:22, 29 March 2013 (EDT)
And going back to the portable games trailers with MGS3 footage. Those were the Japanese trailers and the MGS3 footages serve as a jump off point. If you were to compare advertising like that to these games, it would be like watching a trailer of MGS5 starting off with a couple scenes from MGS4, 2 completely different games but obviously has connections to each other since they exist in the same universe. You can't argue because the portable games did it so it makes sense for the new MGS5 trailer. Excalibur01 (talk) 00:26, 29 March 2013 (EDT)
It's not odd at all that they'd market two completely different games at the same time. Heck, Lords of Shadows 2 actually marketed both the console game and the portable game at the exact same time in E3 2012, and Epic Mickey 2 also did the same with two games that were completely different. And misdirection or not, I sincerely doubt Kojima'd refer to the opening scene of TPP as being the tutorial to the game AFTER marketing it as the same as Ground Zeroes. You can't have a tutorial level after the main prologue of a game. Did we have that in the Plant Chapter of MGS2? Operation Snake Eater in MGS3? Any of the levels after Liquid Sun in MGS4? Any of the levels after the intro to Peace Walker? There is a way for games to be separate and the same at the exact same time though: Think Sonic 4. Separate releases, same game. Pokeria1 (talk) 12:07, 21 April 2013 (EDT)
Gun wish list
Here's some guns I hope will come for the game since Kojima confirmed The Phantom Pain will take place around 1984. Excalibur01 (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2013 (EDT)
The first is a Glock and not the Glock 18.
Galil
CZ75
UZI
ASP9
M14
AK74
FAL
Valmet series
Browning HP
VP70
Beretta 93R
SIG SG 540
XL64E5
FAMAS
More M16 variants
Daewoo K1 / K2
Mini-14
SA Vz.58
AR-18
Different AK variants
Guns that I personally predict would be useable: --Btgr (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2013 (EDT)
Makarov PM
Stetchkin APS
M1911A1
Any .357 Magnum revolver made by Smith & Wesson, Colt or Ruger
Am the only one, but are there quite a lot of hybrid firearms on display here? Take a closer look at those AKs, both the 7.62 and 5.56 versions. AK-74 stand-ins have a ring sight mounted on the back of the receiver, and 7.62 ones have a bizarre wooden front grip, AKS-74U patterned back sights along with a pretty western looking flash hider. Now those are some jive-ass Kalashnikovs if I ever laid my very one eyes upon one. Is anyone a bit more versed as to why Kojima suddenly went for this bizarre change? --BeloglaviSup (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
I'll admit it is unusual, but at least they look like they can exist unlike Resident Evil 6 where all guns seemed like frankenguns Excalibur01 (talk) 18:58, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
Getting the feeling of anachronism
I wonder, with the recent trailer, a lot of the tech and gear are a bit anachronistic for the 80s like Skull face's men. Excalibur01 (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
Dudes got a robot arm, I don't think historical accuracy is a big deal.--Crazycrankle (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
That's a BS argument. If that's the excuse, why not all guns be fictional and they start using halo plasma rifles and phasers? Excalibur01 (talk) 23:07, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
Kojima has said that MGS takes place in an alternate time line from the real world, so there being anachronisms in weapons and technology really shouldn't matter all that much, I mean hell, Peace Walker had some weapons that weren't made until the 80's and I believe some that weren't made until the 90's, so it's a little late for the "This is anachronistic!" arguments.Kornflakes89 (talk) 23:08, 24 September 2013 (EDT)
Kojima has confirmed that "Weapons will be based off of weapons found in the 1980's". --Btgr (talk) 04:31, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
Let's hope they actually ARE real guns and not completely fictionalized guns, as Ground Zeroes is not giving me good hopes on that (like the WU gun). I mean, with Rising, its completely acceptable, since it took place well into the future of not only our time, but also in-universe. Considering games taking place both before and after MGSV (both GZ and TPP) used real life weaponry, going the Resident Evil route is jarring, especially considering the Fox Engine was meant to bring out more realism. Pokeria1 (talk) 09:49, 24 November 2013 (EST)
I can agree. The fact that MGS4 had so many well made real life models makes this whole deal very odd to me. Why would they have made these franken guns instead of the actual weapons in the 80's? Kona (talk) 23:56, 11 July 2014 (EDT)
Single Action Army and other guns
Not much to go off but Ocelot's gun does not look like an SAA at all. It looks like some kind of top breaker. Do you think the guns in this one are going to be generic instead of actual models like they've been before?--Acepeacemaker (talk)
I would agree that it looks nothing like a Colt, more like a Webley, but it isn't a perfect match for that either. As far as I can tell every one of these weapons is a hybrid or fabrication of some sort. The AK is the same shape as an AK-47, but every single part of it is wrong in some way. The rifle used by Skull Face's guys is pretty close to a real gun, as everything up the the rear of the handguard is a SIG SG 550, but ahead of that it goes to hell (looks a bit like an FNC from that point on). --commando552 (talk) 16:12, 12 June 2013 (EDT)
Yeah back to the AK, in the shot I took of Snake disarming a guy, that AK has the elevated rear sight like a Galil Excalibur01 (talk) 16:33, 12 June 2013 (EDT)
That AK is such a mess it is ridiculous. if you look at the receiver it actually appears to be partly based on that of an FN FAL (left side reflected on both sides of the AK) with an AKM dust cover with an AKS-74U rear sight. Added to this you have the weird straight post front sight (which I think I recognise from something but can't place), the slotted flash hider which looks a bit like a shortened Druganov, a vent-less handguard which looks like it has an M16A2 handguard texture applied to it, and a gas block like nothing I have seen on an AK. Also, unless they are at different game build stages there are two different rifles here, as the one with the rear sight at the top of the back cover has a Bakelite style 5.45×39mm style mag with the shallower curve. The guns are so f'ed up in this game so far that I almost get the feeling that they weren't actually designed for it, they just took existing models from other games and messed them up in the hopes that nobody would notice. --commando552 (talk) 18:22, 12 June 2013 (EDT)
I took a look around at some AK variants and the front sight post that you mentioned you couldn't place looks like it's from the AK-74. Could also be taken from the PKM. Take a look at the entry for 9th Company and compare --DeltaOne (talk) 05:09, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
I don't think so, the AK-74 front sight has a sloped back and a cut out in the middle, whereas this is vertical front and back and has no cut out. It also attaches to the barrel in a different way to any of the AK type sights. I've since remembered the thing it reminds me of, which is the front sight used on the original Gerat 06 prototype. I highly doubt this is what they deliberately based it on as this is such an obscure weapon, but this is what it reminded me of when I first saw it:Error creating thumbnail: File missingMauser Gerat 06 - 7.92×33mm Kurz --commando552 (talk) 06:05, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
I just noticed, it also looks a lot like the front sight on the Knorr-Bremse paratrooper rifle prototype as seen here, the groove up the side is very similar. Both this and the Gerat 06 front sight are hooded though, although if they just used a random side on image they found as a reference you might not necessarily realise and model it as open. --commando552 (talk) 06:26, 25 September 2013 (EDT)
Yeah, the AK (in-game name is currently SVG-76) is a mingling of numerous AK-variants. Rear sights altering between the Valmet/Galil/Vektor variants and the AKMSU ones, magazines altering between the long 7.62 ones and 5.45 bakelite ones and so on. And since the AK is (arguably) inspired by StG 44, it may just also borrow elements from other weapons notably inspired by StG 44. This is probably just to have a "universal in-game AK". The game - from what I understand - takes place in handful of hotspots of early-mid 1980's and therefore it'd be tricky for armed groups - ranging from African Guerillas to Soviet Ground Forces at their technological peak - to reliably have the very specific variant of certain firearm in use, as there tends to be tiny variations from country to country. Though, why do the Soviets have the Valmet/Galil sights on their AK variants? I thought Mikhail Kalashnikov and majority of AK users in Soviet/Russian army hated the Valmet style rear sights!? TrickShotFinn (talk) 03:04, 18 August 2014 (EDT)
Let's hope the final product is a little different than advertised. In previous games, the weapons were slightly altered from early footage. In a way, the different weapon designs give off a sense of familiar yet alternate view of the period that the game takes place in. Excalibur01 (talk) 18:43, 12 June 2013 (EDT)
Anyway, you think the revolve might be a Nagant? Excalibur01 (talk) 18:45, 12 June 2013 (EDT)
Punished Snakes Camo
can anyone identify the camo snake uses in the phantom pain trailer ? looks like tiger stripe but is more arid, but not the same as the desert tiger stripe that Drebin wears
Drebin wears Desert DPM by the looks of it. Snake has Desert Tiger Stripe. Also it's Big Boss not Snake.
Kona (talk) 23:52, 11 July 2014 (EDT)
yes i know he is Big Boss, but he is also refered to as Venom Snake(latest e3) and Kaz calls him Snake in the trailer. --Sike (talk) 08:28, 23 August 2014 (EDT)
Eh, we'll just keep calling him Big Boss, that's who he is the rest of the time. Evil Tim (talk) 07:05, 10 January 2015 (EST)
Finished product
So from all the recent game footages, it looks like all these franken guns are going to remain. Which is unfortunate. Excalibur01 (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2014 (EDT)
Much too bad, really. MGS1 started the trend of authentic firearms in the series, and now we've jumped straight into the realm of fictional firearms. Of course, the likes of the Foxhound unit in the first game were certainly fantastical, but the modelled-from-real-life hardware gave it a certain anchor to reality. There were certainly lots of period-accurate firearms that Kojima and his team could have modelled for this game, but for no reason I can fathom, historical accuracy for firearms seems to no longer be a priority for this series, leaving us fans of authentic weaponry in games out in the cold for this title. It makes me wonder if Kojima will also use fictional guns for his upcoming Silent Hill game starring Norman Reedus, which is another Konami series that has generally used realistically-modelled guns. --Mazryonh (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2014 (EDT)
It's not even just Kojima. It's becoming a trend for games to feature mostly fictional guns. Look at Resident Evil and GTA. Both game series featured guns modeled on real life counterparts for the most part in the past. It's a shame and I hope this trend doesn't take over most games. SmithandWesson36 (talk) 12:18, 15 August 2014 (EDT)
Well, to be fair, in Peace Walker, Mother Base invented virtually every weapon that would be invented for the next thirty years, so it does sort of make sense... Evil Tim (talk) 02:49, 19 December 2014 (EST)
If it's any consolation, somebody will probably mod the game to add real weapons when it comes to PC. --yocapo32 (talk) 17:12, 19 December 2014 (EST)
My theory is Ground Zeroes (and this, if it's similar) are actually a Grim And Adult story written by Huey about Big Boss. When he reads it he glares and goes YOU'RE FIRED and kicks Huey into the sea and that's why Huey isn't working for Big Boss when Otacon is born. Calling it now. Evil Tim (talk) 11:16, 1 January 2015 (EST)
Well for the GTA series, most of the guns were pretty real. Excalibur01 (talk) 16:22, 15 August 2014 (EDT)
Yeah, I meant that GTA V didnt have real models, but the series did in the past. --SmithandWesson36 (talk) 22:33, 16 August 2014 (EDT)
Well, referring to the new Silent Hill game, Silent Hill doesn't really provide the player with any significant firepower (the MAC-10 in Silent Hill 3 was the only full auto weapon in the series so far), so I'm gonna guess that we'll be getting a hold of some kind of Beretta, or maybe a generic 1911. Heavier weapons might be generic shotguns or bolt action rifles, though. --PyramidHead (talk) 13:10, 15 August 2014 (EDT)
There was the MAC-11 in Silent Hill 4. But you didn't have direct control over that weapon. I was hoping that a Silent Hill game by Kojima would feature realistic capacities for more ingame guns (such as 15 rounds or more in a "wonder nine," like the S&W Sigma from the first game), but now that it looks like he's gone into fictional firearm territory for his flagship series that's unlikely now. --Mazryonh (talk) 04:19, 16 August 2014 (EDT)
The PMCs had the M4 and snake had a GSR right up until the release and then SBR SCAR-H's and snakes operator came out of no where... Hoping that is the case, but in yongs video, ocelots dudes still had the FNC frankengun that is paramount in every video so far... Really hoping, but worried, and think it might taint the game a little but if I have to deal with stupid guns...
Seriously, is it so hard for them to use real guns instead of inventing fictional ones? I mean the PSP game that came before all used real guns and that's a PSP Excalibur01 (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2014 (EDT)
After watching a new cutscene involving Quiet, I am just bothered by how they didn't animate a sling for Snake even in the cutscene? Seriously, it looks like it's glued to his side pouch Excalibur01 (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2014 (EDT)
Not quite sure, but I think this is largely due to cutscenes being animated in real-time, rather then being pre-rendered. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 01:33, 26 September 2014 (EDT)
We've already sorta ID the gun. It's pretty much the fictional URAGAN-5. He's even carrying the shotgun shells for the gun...Seriously I rolled my eyes that they couldn't give him back his SAAs. Excalibur01 (talk) 21:07, 1 January 2015 (EST)
I feel this further supports my idea that this story is entirely in the imagination of the guy who thought putting an Easter island head and a chainsaw arm on a tank made any kind of sense. Evil Tim (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2015 (EST)
What are you talking about?
Best item in MGS history
Apparently this works like the playboy / book / magazine and cements that Mother Base is silly.
I really hope this is in singleplayer. I will call it Lil' Boss. Evil Tim (talk) 07:01, 10 January 2015 (EST)
Did you play MGS4's multiplayer? Not only did they use books to distract other players for a brief time, there was also the very silly "Charm" skill, which you can see demonstrated here.
Anyway, this concept of "cute stuffed animal used as a distraction" has had some real-life attempts based on it, such as disguising the muzzle of a cornershot weapon. --Mazryonh (talk) 01:17, 11 January 2015 (EST)
I'm not sure if anyone's ever used that thing seriously, though. And generally you're not hoping your opponent will be tricked into petting the Cornershot. :P Evil Tim (talk) 06:53, 18 January 2015 (EST)
Vietcong used to place explosives inside kids toys all the time during the Vietnam war, so it's not a massive departure from reality, (Here's hoping it's not just a distraction but can in fact be armed). RedRobinAlpha (talk) 12:57, 18 January 2015 (GMT)
Didn't Soviets also use toys to trick Afghan child soldiers into activating booby traps and such? It's been confirmed that atleast one section of the game takes place admist of Soviet war in Afghanistan and that child soldiers are to be featured in certain numbers. TrickShotFinn (talk) 08:47, 18 January 2015 (EST)
I'm not sure about deliberate usage of rigged toys specifically against child soldiers in Afghan, but the PFM-1 mine, infamous for it's unassuming shape, has been known to have caused notorious causalities with unassuming children who associated the smooth and unconventional shape of the airdropped mine to a piece of a plastic toy. However, the shape and size of the object weren't dictated by a purposeful and vengeful Soviet anti-children doctrine, rather by unfortunate effects of aerodynamics. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 13:41, 18 January 2015 (EST)
This still establishes that MGS soldiers are effectively just small children when it comes to cute things. And I think the "these were designed to kill kids" allegations date right back to German butterfly bombs from WW2. Also don't blow up the fluffy doggie. What is wrong with you. :P Evil Tim (talk) 15:18, 18 January 2015 (EST)
Here's a video link showing the "cute animal disguise" applied to a cornershot weapon (I would assume it's supposed to look unassuming at a distance, because up close it's clearly not very realistic, not to mention how in real life, small animals in war zones tend to be mangy or bearing scars from the challenges of surviving in such a hostile environment). I can think of one unintended consequence if that disguise becomes commonplace, though. --Mazryonh (talk) 01:10, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Can see part of a bullpup rifle here. Cheek rest reminds me of FAMAS but it looks like an AK mag in it. Would guess a hybrid of FAMAS and Vepr.Temp89 (talk)
Methinks this frankie is most likely substitute for Steyr AUG from Peace Walker. TrickShotFinn (talk) 09:40, 4 February 2015 (EST)
though once you add a silencer on it'll look similar to a Daewoo K7.Temp89 (talk)
Ocelot Revolvers
I been looking at the picture, and Ocelot is definitely not wielding URAGAN-5s; They have six chambers, the barrel is much smaller and thinner, and it doesn't have an elevated front sight. It could be a variant that shoots a regular revolver chambering, but there's no way to know at the moment. --yocapo32 (talk) 19:52, 5 March 2015 (EST)
Yeah, and they look much too small for the cartridges he's carrying, too. Evil Tim (talk) 20:29, 5 March 2015 (EST)
The anachronism is strong with this game after watching E3 videos
So now we have red dot sights on what clearly are EOtech inspired optics. I know this is a very fictional world of the 80s, but compared to previous games in the franchise, they are taking the tech to an extreme. We still don't know why all the fictional guns or a clear report about it, just theories. If they had problems with more western weapons having copy right issues, they are so many other guns that they could get around it like the AK or they could go to other weapons that aren't copyright protected...which again...weird and we got Metal Gear Rising that also used real gun models for some things and that is still a game owned by Konami.
When I first saw the I-Droid, I couldn't stop laughing at how stupid that kind of tech is compared to previously used tech in the MGS series. It boggles my mind how it isn't in continuity with its own universe when it comes to tech and weapons. Excalibur01 (talk) 17:48, 19 June 2015 (EDT)
The first game (Metal Gear Solid, not Metal Gear, in fact yeah, even Metal Gear) has a giant nuclear equipped, walking battle mech, Anachronisms don't really apply to this series, while I'm bummed that the weapons aren't rel world weapons, it makes sense to have their own custom weapons as events in this series happened differently than in the real world which could have easily lead to the creation of different weapons manufacturers than in the real world, at least they actually having some sort of connection/similarities as if they actually have been developed by a real company, not just random designs for each weapon. --RedRobinAlpha (talk) 23:32, 19 June 2015 (GMT)
Eh, Peace Walker had a modern MP3 player as the final Walkman and MSF inventing more or less everything that would be invented for the next twenty years, they're just being consistent. :P I think either they had some deal to make Airsoft versions of their fictional weapons, or Kojima's bought into that stupid "gun companies advertise through games" nonsense which given Big Mama's ridiculous speech about FPSes being PMC propaganda in MGS4 wouldn't surprise me. Evil Tim (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2015 (EDT)
I heard that it was more due to the new customization mechanics. Yoji Shinkawa wanted to make a deeper customization system where you could swap different components between weapons, and this would not work as well with established weapons, where you're bound by real world accessories and rail systems and all that jazz. I'd also like to add on to RedRobinAlphas comment, that in the lore the Patriots had kept most advanced tech like giant mecha and nanomachines under wraps --Aidoru (talk) 01:26, 20 June 2015 (EDT)aidoru
Well yeah, but that doesn't really cover why they'd photoshop the new guns into old images or put them in Ground Zeroes which didn't have those options. And it does cause continuity problems when you then have the later games with only modern weapons in them and no derivatives of these new ones, though it's not like that's much change from the working antigravity system in Peace Walker I guess. There are still anachronisms in the series because MGS1 established this world is more or less like ours in the (then) near future, only now we're discovering that most of the tech that was used in that game was obsolete in the 70s in the game's own universe. Really if they're going to change things this radically they'd be better off doing a clean-slate reboot and make Metal Gear and MGS again with modern resources and a focus on a coherent plot for the whole series.
I mean to be honest the only reason the realistic attachments in MGS4 were so disappointing was there was only one thing for most of the attachment points and a lot of weapons had no options (like the Russian rifles having no scopes, not even a RIS add-on to use the US ones); especially with a near-future setting they could have had all kinds of things like sensor units and stabilisers and stuff. Evil Tim (talk) 02:14, 20 June 2015 (EDT)
Yeah, MGS4 was pretty disappointing in that area, especially the more silly things like the MP7 being unable to take the Aimpoint sight, or the SCAR being unable to take the M320 even though it was perfectly fine on the M4. That said, even with the goofy tech and frankenguns everywhere, I still think this'll be one of the better Metal Gear Solid titles. Nothing will beat blasting Maneater while strafing Soviet outposts from a custom notBlackhawk. --Aidoru (talk) 02:59, 20 June 2015 (EDT)aidoru
Oh yeah, I mean if it lets you Fulton sheep and distract people with a fluffy dog it can't be all bad, but I would love to see a modern version of MGS1 with a scaled-up Shadow Moses. Like, not just shoehorning MGS2 mechanics into MGS1 maps like Twin Snakes (I mean given how stupid the Mk 23 is and the range involved, Snake should probably have been able to beat Sniper Wolf with just his sidearm in both fights), but actually ground-up redoing it with a big open map and loads of different approaches, maybe also streamlining the plot with half the number of betrayals so Snake comes off as less of an idiot (I mean how the hell did they expect him to never find out there was a Metal Gear in the base?) and Liquid requires more than a pair of sunglasses to outwit him. Maybe keeping the original MGS1 thing that you can't finish the game without killing anyone because that isn't how spec ops missions work, I'm surprised Kojima's kept that this long given how much he keeps focusing on how War Is Graaagh Harrrgh Arrrgh despite canon Snake being the most harmless soldier in history. Evil Tim (talk) 03:14, 20 June 2015 (EDT)
The M320 thing is actually correct if you think about it (although probably by accident) as the M320 is designed to mount on to only the M16 or M4. You would need a slightly different version if you wanted to rail mount it to a SCAR. --commando552 (talk) 07:37, 20 June 2015 (EDT)
Some Frankie Gun names revealed in 2015 E3 Playable Demo
Uploaded in case anyone can identify any of the weapons that haven't been identified yet. --RedRobinAlpha (talk) 21:10, 20 June 2015 (GMT)
The thing in the bottom left is a Sturmpistole without the stock fitted. It actually looks pretty dead on which I think makes it the only gun in the game that isn't a frankengun of some sort. --commando552 (talk) 19:14, 20 June 2015 (EDT)
The Ze'ev is probably meant to be the Uzi equivalent. --Aidoru (talk) 01:04, 21 June 2015 (EDT)aidoru
@Commando552 - also judging from the 2015 E3 gameplay demo, the game's SVD Dragunov replacement - Bambetov SV - looks pretty much like a Dragunov rifle should. Only the forearm looks little off. Shown at 26:04 in the video above. TrickShotFinn (talk)
The Bambetov SV also uses a pistol grip instead of the normal skeleton/thumbhole stock that the Dragunov has. --Aidoru (talk) 03:05, 21 June 2015 (EDT)Aidoru
I'm guessing that the Geist P3 is either the ubiquitous "wonder-nine" type pistol (Beretta 92, SIG Sauer P226, CZ-75 etc.) or FN Five-Seven equivalent of the game. TrickShotFinn (talk) 02:49, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
I guess nonlethal guns ingame are marked blue. --Aidoru (talk) 00:48, 7 July 2015 (EDT)Aidoru
I think the 7.62mm "UN-AUTOMATIC" was lethal? It might be customization options.
There's a UN-AAM that looks like a PKM-M249 mashup but it's 5.56mm. KABARGA-83 shotgun looked more like an AEK or AMD rifle than a Saiga. Blackhawk has M134s side-mounted.Temp89 (talk)
IMO:
UN ARC NL = FN FAL counterpart. Some SIG SG 542 elements. Blue barrel seems to designate a non-lethal round firing model.
Kabarga-83 = Saiga-12 counterpart.
UN-AAM = FN Minimi taking over Stoner 63 from Peace Walker. Takes cues from 1974 army trial version of FN Minimi. [[1]]
Doesn't anyone else think that the Sz.-336 in the game is actually a Steyr MPi 81 (albeit with a Skorpion stock)? MoviePropMaster2008 (talk) 03:10, 22 June 2015 (EDT)
It's more likely that they took various Cold War submachine guns and mashed them together. The Sz.-336 has a sidemounted charging handle, and the ejection port is placed a bit closer to the grip than the MPi 69/81, and the grip itself has thicker serrations. I can definitely see the resemblance though.--Aidoru (talk) 03:24, 22 June 2015 (EDT)
Which one? All the weapons in these pictures we've seen before. --RedRobinAlpha (talk) 16:35, 04 August 2015 (GMT)
That orange rifle that looks like the AM-68 but using the 7.62mm magazine from the UN ARC rifle, painted orange.--Aidoru (talk) 13:16, 4 August 2015 (EDT)
Weapons/Items info-graphic
Found this info-graphic on Reddit that shows all known weapons and item descriptions, might be of interest to some people.
And you can find text lists of all weapons around the web. Looks like a lot less weapons than what was in Peace Walker.Temp89 (talk)
Weapon model viewer
So TPP allows you to view the weapon models in the loadout scene. I can't get it to zoom in so it's less helpful with pistols, but for others I'd recommend taking screens of the unmodified base weapon and replacing some of those pixelated shots on the page.Temp89 (talk)
I think you have to unlock MB's weapons development menus for the more in depth weapon viewer.--Aidoru (talk) 20:37, 1 September 2015 (EDT)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTT7FvYqdtE Apparently to get the weapon customization/weapon viewer with zoom in/out modes, you have to complete a certain set of missions in Africa.--Aidoru (talk) 23:35, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
The lack of real guns
So does anyone really know why MGS V all the suddenly dropped the use of real fireamrs for frankenguns? Does it have to do with Konami being wankers and not willing to drop money on weapon licensing or some other reason(s)?
Any form of media that get guns (mostly) right like MGS does is always fun but to see the last (real) MGS not having any of it is just sad :'( --AnActualAK47 (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
I don't think Kojima has said anything officially, but my guess is it's a mix between not wanting to spend a bunch on weapon licenses, and the fact that the story of this game is strongly anti war, and weapons manufacturers might not want their firearms associated with it as, well, they are technically weapons of war. --RedRobinAlpha (talk) 00:20, 03 September 2015 (GMT)
Well, I've been shrugging all the equipment off as fantasy world that the 80s wished they got. I mean, weapon mounted lights on long guns and pistols and electronic optics...in 1984...The I-Droid is in particular a funny piece of tech that doesn't even belong in the future MGS4 that takes place in 2014. So yeah, I'm disappointed at how they couldn't do real weapons but it doesn't deter a good game so far Excalibur01 (talk) 21:38, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
Game developers don't have to pay for using real weapon models in games, only for the names and logos of real weapon companies.--Aidoru (talk) 23:25, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
Speaking of lights mounted on guns, that does remind me of a documentary i saw about some hostage crisis in the UK back in 90s (or maybe it was the late 80s?) These SAS guys where using MP5's and on top of them they had mounted these ridiculously large torches.
Anyway, it's to bad that gun porning was dropped but at least the in game guns are well designed.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 15:54, 3 September 2015 (EDT)
I assume you are talking about the Iranian Embassy Siege, which was actually even earlier in 1980. The torches are big C or D cell Maglite style torches (Kel-Lites I believe but not sure), which were still relatively new at the time. The mounts seen during the siege were kind of a bodge job where they were fixed on to the standard MP5 clam mount, but later on they started using a bracket which replaced the handguard so the torch was more out of the way under the barrel. Even with the torch on the scope mount you could still aim with the irons as these looked through the bottom of the mount, however the SAS only really used point shooting with their MP5s for this sort of range (particularly as they were wearing respirators making it hard to actually look through the sights anyway). --commando552 (talk) 19:29, 3 September 2015 (EDT)
At least I can mash together a frankenAK and a frankenSig/FAL like a not fugly version of Army of Two: 40th Day--Aidoru (talk) 00:58, 4 September 2015 (EDT)
Either way, that torch on the MP5 looked ridicules.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 10:01, 4 September 2015 (EDT)
I have a feeling the reason was for the R&D trees and part commonality; if they can design the guns so the parts are scaled to one another, it makes it easier to swap them between weapons without it looking weird or parts physically not fitting on guns (the worst in the actual game is putting some of the ARC stocks on the SVG blocks access to the upper receiver release button and would prevent it from being removed with the stock attached). That and if the guns are fictional you can come up with upgrade steps for them that look like upgrades rather than Peace Walker having to present things like helicopter-mounted M60s as upgrades to normal ones. Evil Tim (talk) 09:08, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
That might also be the reason why all the calibers are simplified so much from previous games. Like how 5.56mm is used for both Western and Soviet weapons, and how 7.62 is just 7.62, instead of being x51, x54r, x39, etc. Contrast that to 4, where 90% of Drebins shop was taken up by different ammo types.--Aidoru (talk) 21:21, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
You guys realized this by now I hope?
WU is built on HK P7. look at the top of the slide, ejection port, and striker firing mechanism in game. It's pretty obvious in fps view, they just used a generic-looking very smooth grip instead of the squeeze safety ones, and added more flair to front of barrel Slide*. Pepper (talk) 22:54, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
That's a custom variant with the front end of an AMT automag. if you look at the slide in first person, it is extremely obvious that the slide is built around a P7. also the target sights are spot on for the P7's target sights you could buy for it. Here's some first-person shots from in game.
I'm not saying it doesn't have influence of other guns as well, it's just I've 3D modeled enough frankenguns and also high detail P7's myself from references to spot the obvious influence. Pepper (talk) 20:39, 4 September 2015 (EDT)
TBH I really don;t see the resemblance to a P7 either. Firstly, as for the sights, what brand of sights do you think it looks like? There were no factory target sights for the P7 series and the only aftermarket ones that i can find (e.g. LPA and MMC) look nothing like this. These sights look more like they are originally built into the slide rather than a drop in replacement, kind of like the sights of a Colt Gold Cup National Match. As for the general shape of it, there is absolutely no similarity in the frame so that is a write-off in terms of the P7 argument. On to the slide, to start with it bulges out at the bottom for the slide rails in a way that the P7 doesn't, and it also doesn't have the rounded top like the P7 slide does. If you compare pictures from the back, I really don't think you can argue that [this] and [this] are obviously the same gun. --commando552 (talk) 08:30, 5 September 2015 (EDT)
I get that it's hard to spot from a technical point of view, yes, they very closely resemble the LPA sights made for the P7 M series guns. from an artistic point of view, it's obvious they used a longslide competition modded P7M8 as a starting point and made cuts into the slide, used a beveled angle top instead of rounded, and made it's slide movement almost similar to the desert eagle's shape (front stays in place while the back edge and lower front lips slide over it) and also a pistol grip more at home on an AEK-971. The key thing is that they were modeling for third person. I know that every MGS game since 2 has had an aiming functionality, but the first person models have always lacked detail compared to the capabilities of a PS2/3 (polycount on first person models in games with view and world models is typically 5-25x higher, mgs2 on the other hand had almost the same polycount, usp in first person is less than 100 extra vertices compared to in world/third person model, only change is really in detail of light under the barrel and the weapon's hammer) (MGS4 for example, uses a LOD system with 4-5 levels for each gun. level 0 is first person. level 1 is third person/very close npc. level 2 is npc somewhat close. level 3 is npc farther, etc. the difference from level 0 to level 1 is less than 500-800 triangles for almost all weapons, which for weapons that are around 3000-8000 triangles at LOD 0 is not that much, it's basically detailed sights and firing selectors/etc. even the p90 with it's impressive ammo spending ammunition happens in both third and first person, where any sane fps developer wouldn't even do that in first person) All the guns were designed with third person visual flare in mind. That's why the silhouette of many guns in first person feels somewhat natural, but in third person they seem like obvious amalgamations of many designs, or outright strange. I know it technically doesn't pass the muster, but the starting point for alot of the guns is obvious to me. Tokyo Marui started the build based on the looks of one of their competitor's products, the MGC P7M13. This right here.Pepper (talk) 13:17, 5 September 2015 (EDT)
Weapon stances
Okay, so far I've only done the hospital so far and I continually noticed how the PMC Assassin guys are handling their SMGs and firing them sideways. Is there some kind of benefit they are gaining by firing it like that or what? I've noticed several shows/games doing this now (Falling Skies Season 5) where the weapon is intentionally held sideways. Now I could understand if the shooter was in a rush to fire the weapon but here the soldiers intentionally use this method. Anyone else feel the same? Majorcamo (talk) 23:19, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
It's so the brass doesn't hit the guy next to you, or ricochets off the wall into your clothes. --yocapo32 (talk) 23:38, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
AK Template
I felt the page had become too focused on the weapons' context in the game world instead of the real world. A lot of these guns are clearly inspired by very common real-world counterparts and the point of these pages are to help inform people either what games their favourite guns can be used in, or what real-life guns make up the content for their favourite game. And I think no fan of, say, the Glock 18 is going to care if the details got a bit mangled when the overall silhouette and action of the gun is fundamentally the same.
To that end I've redone the SVG entries as AK entries as an example of what I think the gun entries should be like. There's also a lot of text talking about brief glimpses of guns in trailer and pixelly shots that need to be cleared out anyway. I think the weapon entry should be named after the gun it's most similar to, with follow-up pics of other guns if there are readily identifiable chunks of the gun model that clearly belong to another gun. General errors with the models that are down to the devs not having a clue as to the internal workings of a receiver shouldn't have time wasted on them trying to source tenuous real-life counterparts for every single nut and bolt of the gun.
There's the issue of their being multiple versions for each gun. I think if there's one version of the gun that's closest to a real-life one, and the other versions are just the same gun with random parts swapped out (AKS-74 vs AK-74) the other entries should be folded into that one. Let me know what you think.Temp89 (talk)
More weapons
So recently I just reached Africa and the "American supplied emplaced weapon" looks like an M2. Also the Hind/Havoc mashup and BTR-80 based vehicles look like they are equipped with 2A42 based guns and the ZU-23-2 based AA with 2A14 based guns. I'll try to get some pictures of them up along with some of the weapon variants when I unlock them. Also the PKM based gun also looke like it has some elements of the RPD (sorta like the hybrid one in RE6). Kona (talk) 07:27, 4 September 2015 (EDT)
Weapon Names
I thought it was a rule that the weapons on the page be named as their real counterparts? Majorcamo (talk) 23:27, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
Seeing as how each gun takes parts from a multitude of other guns, its easier to just label it the in game name, and talk about the real life counterparts in the description--Aidoru (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
If a gun is a renamed version of a real gun or is a real gun with minor modelling tweaks, then yes, it should be listed under the name of the real firearm. However in the case of guns like the majority here where they are amalgams of different designs (or are not really based on any one design at all) the convention is to list them by the fictional name. However, in order to stop confusion the name should be in quotation marks, e.g. "WU Silent Pistol", in order to make it clear which names are real firearms and which are fictional in-game names. --commando552 (talk) 05:55, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
Yes, this. Also, could we not crop the screenshots, please? Evil Tim (talk) 09:23, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
I really don't think we should be adding custom guns. If you haven't got that far, about half way through the game you can unlock the ability to customize guns, which involves being able to swap out parts for parts from any other gun in the game. That includes sticking ridiculous sniper front-ends on tiny guns. Just because you can smoosh some random parts together to form the silhouette of another gun doesn't mean it's actually represented in the game.Temp89 (talk)
It's what's happening at the Payday 2 page so why not here?--AnActualAK47 (talk) 07:38, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
As long as it's not actually listed as an Mk 14 EBR it's ok to use it as an illustration of the customisation things. Evil Tim (talk) 07:47, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
I think the difference with the Payday 2 customisation and the customisation here is that in Payday 2 the customisation items are unique to the weapons where as here all you are doing is taking items from one of the weapons and adding it to another. Aka, starting with the MRS-4, having it with a SVG-76 barrel and a Bambetov stock, so all weapons have the same customisation options rather than each having their own unique attachments as in Payday 2, so all I think is needed, is a line saying something along the lines of "Once you unlock the 'Legendary Gunsmith' you can customize your weapons by interchanging barrels, stocks, sights and attachments, between weapons". --RedRobinAlpha (talk) 14:00, 09 September 2015 (GMT)
I'm writing an overview section like the one for Peace Walker to explain things like that. Evil Tim (talk) 09:15, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
Error creating thumbnail: File missingURAGAN-5 in the game's customization menu, showing the most extreme options possible. It's a miracle that this thing can fire, let alone not fall apart. The barrel and the stock clip into the gun, and there's nothing to hold the cylinder in place. In fact, the barrel isn't even lined up with any of the chambers!!!
Also this Uragan-5 is either hacked or glitched, the level 3 Uragan-5 doesn't have any custom options at all. Evil Tim (talk) 10:17, 9 September 2015 (EDT)
404'd. Evil Tim (talk) 02:32, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
SVG-76
The receiver and the pistol grip of the SVG-76 and the SVG-76U resemble the ones from SA vz. 58P and the SA vz. 58V, respectively. --Funkychinaman (talk) 23:13, 10 September 2015 (EDT)
Mateba
I think Revolver Ocelot's sidearm looks a lot more like the 2006M than the Unica 6.AgentGumby (talk) 08:57, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
They're actually just Uragan-5s with long barrels, as far as I can tell the GZ snub version doesn't even exist in TPP. Evil Tim (talk) 14:53, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
Geist P3
Is it just me, or is the frame of the P3 heavily reminiscent of a Springfield XD, minus grip safety?--Aidoru (talk) 02:19, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
It's got parts from others also, the fps-view of the slide shows it's also very influenced by other polymer framed pistols, like the Steyr M9.Pepper (talk) 09:12, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
Is it the Geist that gets used by the Cypriot doctor when Quiet garrotes him in the intro? It looked like a separate handbag-pistol the player never gets to use.Temp89 (talk)
Unusable bipods?
JOOC, are the bipods on the automatic rifles and light machine guns usable or are they just aesthetic? Because it's slightly unusual to replace the bipod with a vertical foregrip since the former can be used to deploy the gun and provide suppressing fire from a fixed prone position like in Battlefield, which is a more realistic tactic used by squad support gunners in real-life. MJ79 (talk) 16:50, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
Pretty sure they're just cosmetic.--Aidoru (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
AM D114 Pistol
Am I the only that sees model wise it has more in common with a CZ 75 style pistol than a 1911? Especially the slide running along the inside of the frame design. At most I think it should have a mention and add the EAA Witness pic. Mr. Wolf (talk) 17:00, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
I don't know why the article insists that they're URAGAN-5s, they're obviously not chambered in 12 gauge, but what looks like a regular revolver cartridge (Given that it's Ocelot, I'm guessing .45 Long Colt), and the only reason they look alike is because they both fire from the six o' clock position --yocapo32 (talk) 11:38, 14 September 2015 (EDT)
They're both break action, and they're both pretty much identical in terms of aesthetics. Maybe they're a variant of the URAGAN unique to Ocelot.--Aidoru (talk) 11:54, 14 September 2015 (EDT)
Also, if they're not supposed to be Uragans, why is Ocelot carrying a bandolier of shotgun cartridges? Evil Tim (talk) 19:49, 14 September 2015 (EDT)
Closer inspection on the images of Quiet and Ocelot show that their piece has a front sight with a much smaller profile, a barrel flush with the top of the frame, and the cylinder is identical in shape to the Chiappa Rhino. I think the revolver can stay under classification as a hybrid of the 2006M and Rhino, but it'd definitely not supposed to be the Urugan.AgentGumby (talk) 21:29, 14 September 2015 (EDT)
Eh, it's a variation on the same model, probably just fiddling so it fit in Ocelot's holsters properly. Evil Tim (talk) 01:25, 15 September 2015 (EDT)
Plus, if you take a look at the hammer and grip, they match up with the URAGAN's pretty much 1 to 1.--Aidoru (talk) 02:24, 15 September 2015 (EDT)
Well, in that case it would make more sense for Ocelot to be brandishing the Windurger S333 which fires actual revolver cartridges.-MJ79 (talk) 14:34, 15 September 2015 (EDT)
Yeah, it's weird he'd be packing a pair of scaled-down wrist-breaking machines rather than normal revolvers, maybe they just came up with Ocelot's model before the S333 model, given it isn't in Ground Zeroes and all. Evil Tim (talk) 16:23, 15 September 2015 (EDT)
Maybe the URAGAN is in the vain of the Taurus Judge and was originally going to be able to load both Shotgun shells and standard pistol rounds, would explain why Ocelot is carrying both on his person, --RedRobinAlpha (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2015 (GMT)
Yeah, whereas in the final game it's a 12 gauge, meaning it would be impossible to run out of ammunition for it since nobody who fired it would ever want to do so again. Evil Tim (talk) 16:48, 15 September 2015 (EDT)
AM MRS-4LS
I think the AM MRS-4LS isn't only inspired by the C7A1 LSW/Model 950 LMG but more of a hybrid of the Stoner 63 and Ultimax 100 too, making it a combination of three different firearms into one. The lack of the carrying handle and the fact that it has a foregrip when upgraded, the shape of the box magazine and especially the stock/butt makes it look more like the Ultimax and Stoner 63. What do you think?
![[1]](http://weaponsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/FN-Minimi-1974-Army-improved.jpg){kind=link}
