Talk:Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

Airsoft 1911

Are you absolutely sure the airsoft gun wasn't based on the gun in the game?-protoAuthor

What are you talking about? Spartan198 04:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You say the custom 1911 was based on an airsoft gun. Are you sure it wasn't the other way around?-protoAuthor

I also agree that the gun isn't based off the one in the pic for that weapon. Aside from it being an airsoft gun, it is a compact version of a 1911 when Big Boss's 1911 was a fullsize. Also, the slide serrations are slanted wheras the ones on big boss's weapon were vertical like those on the original 1911. Neither one has anything to do with the other, I think the image should be removed.

the 'source' for the statement 'Big Boss's gun is based off a custom airsoft' is http://crimsonsguns.tripod.com/gameguns.html

However, I view this with a huge degree of skepticism. For starters, as mentioned, the barrel/slide seems to be longer on Big Boss's gun. But even if it is based on an airsoft gun, the airsoft gun itself is based on a standard real-world 1911 with real world features. So it's just one step removed from raw, hands on research. But then again, I don't think most game companies actually buy real versions of the guns they are modeling, they just look around for photos of them. It's like saying 'the model for the gun in this game isn't based on a REAL M-16, it's based on pictures of an M-16'

That 'source' mentions that the gun was produced by Sheriff Co. Given that Sheriff is mentioned in the MGS3 credits it's actually quite likely that it was in fact modeled off an airsoft gun. However, the one in the picture is obviously not the one in the game.--Lynx 19:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

DSR-1

It can also be found in South America when following Naomi's trail, just follow the wrong footsteps from the point where you can also find hand trails. You will hear Naomi crying for help (from a radio) and a sniper will wait for you to come. She has the DSR-1 with her.

In game pistures

Someone needs to post ingame pictures of the guns.--FIVETWOSEVEN 23:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

this shot gun (http://www.gunsamerica.com/926290644/Guns/Shotguns/Ithaca-Shotguns/SxS/Ithaca_NID_New_Ithaca_Field_Grade.htm) looks alot like the "twin barrel" in the game.--184.35.22.22 22:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Mark 23 Mod 1?

According to the Metal Gear Wiki, the gun they used as a reference in MGS4 is actually an experimental "Phase 2" model that is currently undergoing testing by the US Navy.

No, actually it says that the SOCOM presented in MGS1, MGS2 and MGS4 is in fact the Phase II model handgun submitted for trials in the USSOCOM Offensive Handgun Weapon System (OHWS) competition around the later part of 1991, and not the actual production model of the Mk.23 Mod 0. Spartan198 23:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I wrote that -- the differences were the LAM, front serrations on the slide, markings, and the hammer looked different too. By the time the Mk23 was received in May '96, these details bad been changed; both for the military and civilian versions of the pistol. Overall, they're mostly aesthetic changes. -- Orca*

Screenshots needed

This page needs someone with enough effort to add pictures for all of these guns. -GM

I can't do screencaps, but I did add some details about some of the weapons such as where they can be found and such. Spartan198 12:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

I would agree that a game with this many weapons would be much better with more relevant screencaps, especially ones without watermarks. More relevant information about the guns themselves would also be welcome.

Why the strange biases towards certain weapons and calibers in this game?

It seems odd to me why the weapon/caliber selection is so odd in this game. Metal Gear Solid has been one of the best game series to prominently display the real names of every gun in the game, but I have to wonder if some of those companies Kojima got permission from paid him to underplay the abilities of other guns in this game.

For the calibers, it seems mighty odd that the Glock 18c is the only 9x19mm pistol in the entire game. Not even the rebels or militia use older 9x19mm pistols, which is very odd because you'd think that of the vast majority of older pistols that escaped the worldwide mandatory ID lock systems that is mentioned in the game's backstory would be 9x19mm pistols. Not even something like a Beretta M9 is used by the PMC troopers, even though it would be a nice free choice to have in Metal Gear Online.

The game also strangely features 7.62x51mm Battle Rifles where they aren't the most appropriate, such as how the PMCs use the FN SCAR-H even in the confines of urban ruins (as in Act 1) or an intact city (as in Act 3). Only the South American countryside in Act 2 would be an appropriate location for those Battle Rifles in the hands of general troopers. You'd think that Kojima with his weaponry knowledge would give them assault rifles/PDWs/shotguns instead while in urban operations, but that's somehow not the case.

Did H&K and FN pay Kojima to include (and in turn, advertise) their products a great deal in this highly-anticipated and wildly popular game? FN has the Five-SeveN, the P90, the SCAR-H, and the FAL all in the game, while H&K has the SOCOM pistol, the MP5SD2, the XM8, the G3A3, and the HK21E. Colt products and their users by contrast don't get that kind of exposure--Colt M4s are rare, and Colt M16s are completely non-existent in this game. I also think it's telling that the FN P90 has its 50 round magazine, a combat sight, a flashlight and a suppressor, but its competitor, the H&K MP7 has only a red dot sight and is stuck with its 20 round magazine (not its upgraded 40 round magazine) according to this game just can't compete.

Contrary to what some posters on this wiki have said elsewhere, I don't believe this game is biased towards the latest and greatest weapons in general, as several weapons here such as the Vz. 83, the FN FAL carbine, the G3A3, the MAC-10, the Mosin Nagant, the PKM, the RPG-7 and the SVD Dragonuv are quite old.

Kojima definitely spent some time doing weapons research for this game, but did he ever come out with a reason as to why the game chose such odd additions to its arsenal? His personal favourite gun is the Barret M82, something not suited for general combat, so maybe he himself doesn't know as much as the ingame info might imply. --Mazryonh 00:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the same arguments could be said about any of the Tom Clancy games like Rainbow Six Vegas and it's whoring worth of H&K weaponry Excalibur01

It would seem to me that if HK and FN paid Kojima off to showcase (or "whore out", whichever you reading this prefers) their tech, weapons like the XM8 and SCAR-H wouldn't be seemingly outclassed by the M4. You can kit the M4 out with anything and everything, while the SCAR-H lacks a suppressor and grenade launcher (severely hindering its flexibility) and the only thing the XM8 gets is the grenade launcher. Heck, the M4 is pretty much a CQB, grenadier, and designated marksman carbine all in one package (and I typically use it as such, often foregoing the actual sniper rifles in the game in long range combat for the M4 equipped with an ACOG). If HK or FN had paid him off, it would seem logical for the M4 to be totally outclassed in-game by both the XM8 and SCAR-H. Not only those points, but the M4 and the 1911s (I say 1911s collectively because cutscenes seem to automatically replace every non-1911 pistol in your inventory with the Operator) are implied to be Snake's signature weapons this time around. If he were paid off, why aren't the Mark 23 and XM8 or Five-Seven and SCAR-H his signature weapons? Also where's the PSG1, the so-called "greatest sniper rifle in the world" (or so HK says)? And I also feel the urge to point out that the HK21E has 0 modifications for it as well as a ridiculously slow ROF, which makes the M60E4 clearly superior to it. Now, I'm not exactly defending either company here, but it just seems to me that if they had paid Kojima off, the biases pointed out here would be far more extreme. As it stands, I just think Kojima wanted the weapons he likes the most to be the ones players used the most. Regarding the "old" weapons in the game, they may have seen a few years, yes, but FALs, G3s, Dragunovs, PKs, and above all the RPG-7 are so ubiquitous today that we'll be seeing them on modern battlefields, especially ones in the Middle East, for decades to come. Spartan198 08:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, now that I've spent some time thinking about it, the M4 and M1911 in MGS4 may not actually be Colt products at all. After all, didn't a court decision in real life rule that an M4 is a type of firearm and not a Colt trademark at all? It's kind of like how an "M1911-style pistol" is also a type of pistol, not a Colt trademark which is why there are dozens if not hundreds of kinds of "M1911-style pistols" for sale on the general market today. I wonder if Kojima asked Colt to use their trademarks and got rebuffed for whatever reason, which might have caused him to withdraw the M4s from the PMCs and substitute FN SCAR-Hs until someone told him he could just call it an M4 (though not a Colt M4) and avoid copyright infringement.

On the issue of customizability, I think the M4's customizability compared to, for instance, the XM8 and FN SCAR-H is a bit of laziness on the part of Kojima. I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't just stick the M14 EBR's suppressor model on the end of the FN SCAR-H or G3A3 and turn those two into suppressed firearms, for instance. They could have also stuck the M4's suppressor model onto the AK-101 or XM8 as well (in my opinion the XM8's integral red dot sight in MGS4 is easier to use than the M4's, being a great deal less claustrophobic than the M4's version). Something like the FN EGLM would have been nice on the SCAR-H (or the SCAR-L had they bothered to give the PMCs assault rifles in urban areas) but unlike the M320 or GP-30, would only have gone on one weapon (unless the SCAR-L was included) and possibly not have been good on the cost-benefit analysis. But my point, that the customizability of many of the weapon systems (where are the PSO-1 scopes for the AN-94 and AK-102, for instance?) is more an artifact of the design decision than the reality of the weapons in question. Of course, even with the full "real-life" customizability, the M4 would still be the only one capable of carrying an underslung shotgun, which I think is unique enough (though I bet the XM8 could have gotten one had it been adopted, and I'm sure one will be designed for the FN SCAR models if it proves itself in the field enough).

Oh, and one of the reasons why you can snipe with the M4 is because the game over-emphasizes headshots and doesn't implement ballistic physics for bullets. If it did, bullet drop would come into play (especially since the M4's short barrel means that less velocity and energy is imparted to the bullet, resulting in less effective range), moreso with the M4 than the FN SCAR-H or M14 EBR for instance. I think the game would have been more fun if helmets were stronger (for instance, 5 helmet hits from most pistol weapons to kill, 3 helmet hits from 5.56mm weapons to kill someone, or 2 7.62x51mm/PDW ammunition hits, or 1 9x39mm/shotgun slug hit), forcing the player to aim for the exposed face or neck to guarantee a one-hit headshot kill).

I only mentioned those weapons as "old" so as to defuse claims that Kojima was only focussed on the "latest and greatest."

It would have been nice if a PSG-1 and FAMAS (both weapons used in MGS1) showed up in the game for old time's sake, but that was not to be. Still, that doesn't resolve the question of why HK's PDW (the MP7A1) is so inferior to FN's PDW (the P90) in this game. Even the wikipedia image of the MP7A1 shows it with a suppressor and 40 round magazine, along with custom optics. --Mazryonh 18:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Play on a higher difficulty level. The strength of the PMC's helmets varies. On the easiest level, a single 9mm round will punch through. On the highest level, it takes a couple of rounds of 7.62 NATO to punch through. Spartan198 08:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Mk. 23 Mod 0

I just have to ask this; why does Snake like using the H&K Mk. 23? I mean, from everything I've heard/read about them, the USP compact tactical variant is much better, so why doesn't Snake use that?--Zblayde 16:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

He uses it because the designers wanted him to use it. And if you've ever shot a Mk23 you'd know that it is vastly superior to the entire USP series in every possible way other than weight and weight shouldnt be an issue you're looking for a combat handgun. -Double Agent M

Um, yes, weight is an issue in a combat handgun. Weight is always an issue when it comes to the weapons and gear used by soldiers. That's why the Mark 23 failed as a combat handgun and lavished on supply shelves instead of inside holsters like the various 1911 makes and even the entire USP series. Spartan198 08:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now on the HK Mk. 23's page, but since this was brought up, I might as well ask it here: why was the Mk. 23 made so big and bulky in the first place, if its performance could have been replicated in the smaller USP series? It's close in size to the Desert Eagle despite firing a smaller (and more combat-practical) cartridge. Was it to ensure ruggedness, resistance to salt water damage, and reliability? Or something else? It's always puzzled me about this pistol that is one of the signature weapons of the Metal Gear Solid series (making appearances in 1, 2, and 4). Of course, it could be that Kojima just thinks it's a "cool gun" . . . --Mazryonh 20:59, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Its weight helps counteract recoil, the elongated barrel improves accuracy, and right out of the box it can be fitted with a suppressor and a LEM. It's bulky enough so that if you need to you can beat a man to death with it. It's a fantastic combat handgun but where it loses out to Berettas and Colts is in complexity. Because of it's raw size you cant just whip it around and the controls can take some getting used to. It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm. -Double Agent M

Supposedly the USP Compact Tactical can mount a suppressor and Laser Aiming Module, but only has 8 rounds in .45 ACP. Also, as a "Offensive Handgun Weapons System," the SOCOM pistol supposed to be usable as a primary weapon when killing is supposed to be done discreetly, such as many situations in the Metal Gear Solid series. On paper I can see why it's better, but if the hands-on experience of operators deems it as "uncomfortable to carry and use," then their complaints trump the on-paper benefits.

Of course, "uncomfortable" and "hard to use" is a bit of a relative term, since training and practice can certainly acclimatise someone to almost any well-designed weapons system, but that takes time, money, and perseverance. Given that handguns are hardly a primary weapon system anymore, and the majority those who do professionally use them as such (such as average beat cops) don't train with them to be expert shooters most of the time, I suppose ease of use is a major factor because it's the easier way out instead of spending time to get used to a better-on-paper but less-user-friendly weapon. If "better-on-paper" mattered more, wouldn't the FBI be using Glock 20 pistols instead of Glock 22 pistols? --Mazryonh 16:48, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you. :) But I'd still love to get a hold of one and try it for myself. - Mr. Wolf 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

"It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm." <-I love this kind of thing. Sure, a pistol that's a foot and an half long with a suppressor and weighs as much as an empty MP5 is a much better compliment to your primary weapon than it's weight in extra magazines for that primary weapon. Think you needed to lay off the HK propaganda there, "Agent M."

To actually answer the question, they used the Mk23 because it's huge and blocky (same reason Meryl got that 50 AE Deagle), so it's easy for the player to see it in Snake's hands and for the PS1 to render it. Simple as that. Evil Tim 06:42, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

I've heard from a lot people who actually own MK 23s and they say that their excellent weapons (and no, it was not "HK propaganda"). - Mr. Wolf 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Meryl's Desert Eagle

Just how "combat-effective" would the ballistics of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle be? What might the effective range be, and would it regularly penetrate the body armour of the FROG troopers she faces? Or would she be better off with an 40-round MP7A1 (to go with the theme of "biggest to smallest" weapons of the Rat Patrol) when fighting the FROG troopers in Advent Palace and Outer Haven? --Mazryonh 15:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• I've got an Airsoft Desert Eagle (bought many years ago, mind) that came with both barrels, and it's weighted to the point you can see what a bad idea it is: it's ridiculously front-heavy with that barrel extension, and I imagine with a scope as well it'd probably weigh as much as the MP7 anyway. So maybe it could penetrate body armour and maybe it couldn't, but you'd still have better ergo from using a 1911 duct-taped to the head of a banjo. Vangelis 09:21, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Okay, so that Airsoft model exactly duplicates the loaded weight of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle? That's rather interesting. Even if it couldn't penetrate the body armour the FROGs seem to be wearing, would the impact force be enough to inflict blunt trauma on the FROGs, such as broken ribs, concussions, or the like? --Mazryonh 22:15, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Well back when I did Airsoft, I played for functionality and being simple. Sure my team and I decked out our guns, but nothing more than red dot sights, and vertical grips. Because it isn't real firearms, we tried to not equip like we would a real weapon because it's not the same thing. Lighter is always better. The less we have to carry, the better. That being said, I would never get an Airsoft Desert Eagle to shoot in games. For fun, yeah. It'll be cool to run around the woods with the 10in barrel and a scope mounted on it, but you wouldn't get any good range with an airsoft pistol anyway, even if it is gas powered. Now a REAL Desert Eagle, I'd get for fun, but that's only after I get my more practical guns first.

Anyway, I think from a character standpoint, Meryl's character is supposed to be a "tough chick" so what's the iconic tough guy gun? A Desert Eagle from the action movies. I don't know if the .50 AE could go through body armor Excalibur01 10:42, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Yeah, I just use it for plinking spiders because I have a high ceiling. Bought it because I was a teenager and it was a Desert Eagle, I will make no excuses on that front. Vangelis 10:48, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Well I admit before I knew anything about the M16, I was very anti-gun kid in early high school. Then when I got to know guns, I thought the M16 is this Vietnam piece of crap that jams all the time and the AK is the ultimate assault rifle until I grew up and got a more objective view of guns. When buying my first Airsoft, I bought a P90 cause I was a fan of Stargate...then I discovered a P90 Airsoft is useless, inaccurate and has terrible range. So I went and bought an M733, and then realize that you need a longer barrel for range and accuracy and that evolved to my M4 type rifle. Excalibur01 10:59, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Tanegashima rifle

Why isn't it on the page?

Someone needs to finish this page

This page is how old and no one has finished it? Someone needs to start doing it.--FIVETWOSEVEN 01:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't have this game and it's a chore to get all the screenshots second hand Excalibur01 02:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I've got a much better capture device than I used to, so I could probably do this at some stage; the main problem is I'd have to record it first (since the software with the Dazzle crashes every time I take a screenshot and BSODs the entire computer if I try to take more than one); I'll have a crack at it next time I'm off work. Don't want to just stand in a corner looking at the same thing for every gun, that makes for dull page. Vangelis 09:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Please do. Stealth camo would be useful to take screenshots of weapons in the hands of NPCs (such as the MP7 or the like). --Mazryonh 00:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Still on this. It's going to take a while before I have time (especially since I'll need to record some of those billion hours of cutscenes), but I haven't forgotten. I'll probably get Twin Snakes and cap the whole series, since doing PS1 MGS1 without first-person aim mode for caps would be a bit pointless. "Look, Snake has a FAMAS! Down there in his hands...oh just click on the damn image and press your nose right up to the screen." Only thing I really need from that is a comparison shot of the Abrams, since the original game's one had two M2 Brownings instead of one. Also I've got an MGS2 trailer somewhere showing Snake with a FAMAS, so I'll have to add that to the 2 page. I'm hoping I can find a picture of the wooden prop version of Fortune's railgun that they built for motion capture. Evil Tim 04:31, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Good to know. I'm looking forward to a full version of this page. I would have finished the MGS2 page myself, except that the PC version I have (the official KONAMI port) is somewhat poorly optimized, with some textures missing or improperly rendered (and what do you mean, KONAMI, that we can't use the mouse to aim in FPV or duplicate the pressure sensitive button functions from a PS2 controller with a keyboard?!). Also, the FAMAS in MGS2 is only usable on the demo version of MGS2 (though it does show up in some cutscenes in the Plant chapter for some strange reason). Did they reuse the MGS2 Demo FAMAS for the Twin Snakes? Perhaps you can find out. --Mazryonh 04:54, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, that'd be worth checking. I heard GIAT (it was still GIAT back then) got very precious about their intellectual property after they realised people wanted to put the FAMAS in games (they're the same about model companies and the LeClerc, Tamiya had to stick their logo and "officially endorsed" on the box of their LeClerc kit) and I think that's why Konami pulled the FAMAS from 2 and never had it turn up again even in 4. Probably they couldn't say no to using it in a remake since they'd already said yes the first time. I've still got the demo of 2 (only reason anyone bought Zone of the Enders, after all) and the FAMAS isn't in that either; it goes from the start of Tanker to the end of the boss fight with Olga, and only gives you the M9 and USP. It was only ever in the early trailers showing Snake on the Tanker. I heard there's some other changes like the guys in the Warhead Storage room using ring airfoil rounds rather than just instakilling you with a radiation leak if you were spotted. Also, you didn't miss anything with the pressure sensitive buttons, trying to half-hold the fire button to aim a rifle in first person was terrible.

Apparently the "Tanegashima" is a Japanese copy of a Portugese arquebus design (sayeth Wikipedia, anyway), so I'll have to add that to the page too. Evil Tim 05:19, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Well, copyright is a sticky situation (go look at one of my earlier comments here and notice how there are no Colt products in this game, despite the presence of an M4A1 Carbine and an M1911). Ubisoft got around it because the FAMAS appears in Rainbow Six Vegas 2 by its real name, so why not MGS4? And I was wrong; the FAMAS is coded within the MGS2 demo, but it is only accessible via a code. And actually there are a few uses for the pressure-sensitive buttons in MGS2--without them you bang your head against a locker ventilation grille when trying to look out, alerting any nearby enemies. You also can't aim an assault rifle without the pressure-sensitive controls, which made controlling them on the PC next to impossible. Another problem is you can't lower a pistol without firing it if you don't let go of the aiming button gently (I got around this on the PC version by unequipping my weapon). Finally, the distance you throw grenades is determined by how hard you press the pressure-sensitive button (but they were almost useless anyway since throwing a frag or flashbang grenade automatically causes an alert upon detonation and frags have a small damage radius). All this made for a frustratingly bad PC port, which is why I caved in and got the PS2 version afterwards. --Mazryonh 15:20, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Well, made a start before realising I'm going to have to crop the borders off every image by hand. :( Evil Tim 12:35, 24 May 2011 (CDT)