Talk:Heat

Views

It's amazing we've reached nearly 80,000 views for this page. I remember how happy we were when it hit 50,000...which doesn't seem like it was all that long ago. Probably won't be much longer before we hit 100,000. -MT2008

Over 130,000 now. Crazy. -MT2008

Has anyone seen this?

http://fateoflegions.blogspot.com/2008/06/movie-guns-x.html

I'm just curious because although his list isn't as thorough as ours, he seems to have some very high-quality screenshots which look way better than those on my DVD. I especially like the screenshot of Trejo's Norinco AK, which shows the barrel and front sight in better detail. Blu Ray, perhaps?

The clearer shots already disproved one of my own recollections and I will fix it. I could have sworn that I saw M16A1 uppers mounted onto SP1 lowers on the set. (it was fourteen years ago!) But the clearer BLURAY shots show Wes Studi's rifle to be an M16A1 lower, not the SP1 lower I thought it was. Fooey! I pulled one of those Franken-guns from the inventory (though I can't be sure if that gun ever was in HEAT) and photographed it for nothing. I will change it back. As for this guy's list, he has much clearer High Def shots, but his information isn't nearly as accurate as IMFDB's page. MoviePropMaster2008

I always used to think it was a continuity error...the first shot (where he's firing at the car) clearly shows a gun with a mil-spec A1-style receiver, but it does look like an SP1 lower in the next scene, right before he shoots Kilmer. If it weren't for the Blu Ray shots, I would have continued to think this way.

The guy thought the 733s in the film were M4A3s just because of the DVD title sequence. Pretty funny. I wish I had thought to nab more shots, many of the ones he took were ones I didn't bother because I thought the ones we had were good enough. Should have followed my gut. His page is a little more complete but less correct, as far as I'm concerned.-GM

There's also the phenomenon of having too many screen caps, something I'm seeing on some pages (look at Dogs of War, the changes that aren't mine.). I know that some guys get all excited about their ability to post screen caps, but having literally DOZENS of images of the same guns is really beating a dead horse and makes the page cumbersome and annoying to look at. The last thing I want are to have IMFDB movie pages resembling people's MYSPACE pages ... cluttered, hard to navigate and generally irritating. So far I think your ratio of 'useful' images is just fine. These other guys don't know when there is too much of a good thing.

Also IMFDB has the advantage of multiple users checking and re-checking the pages. Sure some of the pages have work to do, but they will eventually be 100% done. MoviePropMaster2008

What is this so called M4A3? I've never heard of it. So after the A1, there's an A2 and an A3 as well? Are we talking about what Colt makes or what Bushmaster makes? Excalibur01 02:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

No such variant exists. Someone mistook another Colt variant I guess and soon it spread around as improper fact. - Gunmaster45

I see. Well I can somewhat understand some people when they look at AR-15 type weapons as the same rifle because they all share the same basic design. I used to look and see every shorty M16 variant as an M4 before I knew more about the M4 and also used to not know that the M4 is the burst verison and the A1 is auto with the removable carrying handle Excalibur01 07:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey, guys, there is no Blu-Ray of Heat yet, unfortunately.

UPDATE ON DAT ISSUE: Yes there is, now. By the way, above is me as well.-protoAuthor 19:30, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Bosko (Ted Levine)

The first casualty of the bank robbery gun battle. What type of gun was he using? GoldDragon 03:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The rent-a-cop with the ankle holster? Or out in the street? bunni 15:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Out in the street. I though it was a G36K or something but I can't be sure. GoldDragon 02:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I know this is kind of an old comment, but the G36 series wasn't around when the movie was filmed (1994-95), and it wouldn't have been imported to the U.S. until 1998, about two years after it entered service with the Bundeswehr. Anyway, Bosko uses one of the M16A1s with A2 handguards that are used by most of the other detectives in the shootout, including Detective Casals.

M4

During the van rubbery DiNero and Killmer used M4s.

No, they used Colt Model 733s. - Flying Dane

Is a "rubbery" something like a "shrubbery"? And who is DiNEro ("Money" in spanish) and KILLmer? Just kidding LOL!~ ;) - MoviePropMaster2008

Help!

Someone fucked up the pictures with  letters, i fixed that. Now, some of the pictures don't show for some reason. - User:Flying Dane

Fixed

It's okay, I fixed them. They had some long spaces in them. Alienqueen11.

MoviePropMaster2008 edit

I deleted the MoviePropMaster2008 edit because of it's non-encyclopedic tone. If discussions about a certain gun in the article are to be made, I think it should be done here in the discussion section. Johnnieblue 23:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's fine, but then at the very least, you should have the courtesy to copy and paste the comments into this section rather than deleting them completely, as I have done here.

Alright. I'll be sure to do that in the future. Johnnieblue 19:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Conversation on the FNC

MP2008 had a really good conversation going about which variant of FNC is carried by Vincent in this movie. I have now revived it for this section:

Well, you've been very busy, Gunmaster45, though you're making an entirely educated guess (not a bad one) The 70-30 is a Para length barrel semi auto FNC designed for Law Enforcement use and sale only , so that would be a good guess. However, The FNCs on the set WERE full auto (I was there), but Director Michael Mann directed Al Pacino to fire semi auto only (which is pretty cool since police should NOT go full auto on street full of civilians). From what I remember, Pacino's gun was a pre-1985 American imported FNC 223 rem Sporter that was converted and had the barrel chopped WAY down to mimic the Para rifles and had a M16A1 style birdcage flash hider installed (see pic) by the movie armorers. FN imported American shorter FNC guns 'called' the para rifle, but the American barrels were several inches longer than the one seen in the movie, so this one was chopped down to look more like the European Para Models of the FNC.

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Pacino with a chopped down FNC rifle - note the M16A1 style birdcage flash hider, the original FNCs used Belgian FN FAL style flash hiders and the Para Models had an ultra short version of the same Belgian design.

Harry Lu was the lead armorer (same guy who just did Rambo (2008)), but he's the head coordinator. There were a LOT of trainers and gun handlers on location - it was a big shoot with lots of actors/stuntmen handling live weapons. Lu, like most armorers, acquired the guns from rental houses. At the beginning of the filming of the Street battle, the FNCs were provided by Mike Papac of Cinema Weaponry, but the filming went a lot longer than anticipated, and rifles apparently were swapped out with guns provided by Syd Stembridge of Stembridge Gun Rentals of Glendale (according to everyone's recollection), it's been almost 14 years since that shoot so everyone is working from memory. I too must check it for sure. What I remember and what Mike or Syd or Harry tell me may differ so I will try to get a pic of Pacino's exact gun or at least get the exact model and make info. ...MoviePropMaster2008

How do you get images onto imfdb i am really stumped

Use "Upload File" under the "Toolbox" section (visible on the left menu, below "Search"). To actually display images in an article, copy and paste some of the code from any article of your choice (you can use the code that I used on this page to display the image of Pacino with the FNC, above).

I don't remember what I said to which MPM replied. Anyone remember? Gunmaster45

Gonna fix my own pics

Will probably be replacing the pic I uploaded of the Colt 733 since mine is actually an M16A1 with a Colt Sporter Carbine top, chopped down to resemble a 733. I am trying to get a REAL (marked) 733 that hasn't been altered by a gunsmith (that's pretty hard in this town). Too many of the guns are outfitted with outlandish RIS rails, lasers, scope mounts, and they're nearly unrecognizable. And if I'm borrowing someone else's gun to snap pics of I don't want to have to completely rebuild their gun. ;) Just giving everyone a heads up. (MPM2008)

Is that why these guns have A2 recievers and yours has an A1? - Gunmaster45

New pics

How does our number 1 page look now that I added some extra shots? I'm quite proud of my Norinco Type 56-1 pic. - Gunmaster45

Comment regarding the first shot of the FN FNC section.

The screencap you have would appear to show no one but civilians in Vincent's line of fire. However, the shots immediately before show Vincent and his soon-to-be-deceased partner coming under fire from Shirelis as he hops into the getaway car. Considering that most no one short of a robot's going to have enough wherewithal to know when to stop firing THAT quickly, it can be reasonably assumed that Vincent still believed he had a good bead. I wouldn't slight him for that one. --Clutch 09:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of "Fragmentation"

Hello.

I noticed a over enthiusiastic, but inccorect passage regarding the secondary wounding mechanism of "fragmentation" in the Colt 733 article, and editted it appropriately.

Fragmentation is well documented to be a function of velocity. While certain rounds can fragment at lower velocities (ie, MK262 Mod 0/Mod 1, Nosler OTM, etc) it remains a constant that a high velocity = higher chance of fragmentation. As a result, the statement that rounds fired from the 733 fragment violently, similiar to an "explosion" is completely false.

As is documented in reports by Dr. Martin L. Fackler, and in testing, the reliable fragmentation threshold for common military 5.56 rounds (Vietnam era 55 grain M-193 and modern green tip 62 grain M-855) is 2700 feet per second. The M733 with it's 10.7" barrel will produce velocities in the low 2600 range at the muzzle (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/john.ppt#3, a US SOCOM report concerning the modern MK 18, 10.5" barreled grandchild of the M733) , and as such, will not provide very good fragmentation at distances beyond punching range.

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_2700.html

FNC rifle update

I changed the entry for the FNC rifle. I spoke to all of the armorers on set on this film and everyone says that the rifle was a full auto FNC (imported in the early 1980s) that was chopped and fired semi only at the behest of Director Mann.  :) MoviePropMaster2008 06:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

1911 & clones handguns

The handgun seen on the SISs officier near the end seems to be an LA Vickers Custom, based on the Springfield Loaded pistol, with an extended magwell (you can clearly see the extension on the pistol). The LA Vickers Custom was one of the 1911 handguns delivered by Property Division to the LAPD SWAT before the Kimber Custom II was selected as standard issue for the LAPD (and later the Kimber SIS for the SIS officers)

It's possible, but I dunno if you can assume that. It's always a bad idea to assume that just because a certain law enforcement agency/unit or military uses a particular gun in real life, the exact same weapon is being used in a particular movie. There are a lot of movies that depict NYPD officers using Glock 17s instead of 19s, or that depict Secret Service Agents using SIG-Sauer P226s instead of P228s/P229s, for instance. -MT2008

Yeah sure, but it looks like they at least tried to replicate it. Well i think we can say its a Government pistol with a magwell extension.

Empty P220 anyone

During the ending section, where Neil shots Trejo, Van Zant and Waingro, then shoots at Hannah, he fires a total of 8 rounds from his P220. Now correct me if i'm wrong, but a P220 carries an 8 round mag of .45 ACP rounds, so when Neil is lying in wait for Hannah just before the end, wouldn't he be empty? That is, of course, if he never reloaded.--M14fanboy 23:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't he have reloaded?

Perhaps he had 1 round in the chamber, plus the 8-round magazine. -Gunman69 23:54, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

True, but that would still only warrant him one more shot.--M14fanboy 16:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Car Chase

It's funny: I was just on the street in downtown L.A. today where they filmed the shootout in this movie between the LAPD and McCauley's gang. Remember the part where McCauley, Cheritto, and Shiherlis got in the getaway car and drove off only to be stopped by a police roadblock? They made that sequence seem longer than it really would've been in reality. When I was on Fifth Street today, I looked, thought about it, and realized: they drove roughly one block before stopping, but it seemed like a much greater distance in the film. Just wanted to point that out. -Gunman69 02:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, what can I say...you've stumbled upon one of the nuances of direction. Depending on editing and filming, a scene like that can appear to take place over a longer distance than it actually does. Even though Mann might have only been able to get the city to close down one or two blocks for filming (which, when you think about it, makes perfect sense), they can still make the scale of the battle feel larger and more epic with good direction. -MT2008

Oh yeah, its still a great scene. In my opinion, I think it is one of the greatest movie gunbattles ever. It reminds me of the escalator shootout at Grand Central Station in Carlito's Way. It kept going for a really long time because it was a very epic gunfight. -Gunman69 04:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Hanna's Guns

I was also just thinking about this: the filmmakers got most of the LAPD's weapons right. Patrol Officers carry Beretta's and Remington's (of course I don't think the LAPD used Mossbergs, but whatever. Maybe they did, idk), SWAT carries 1911's, MP5s, etc. You get the point. But what I found really interesting was Hanna's choice of weapons. A Colt Officer's ACP with ivory grips and an FN FNC. Now those are weapons I've never heard of any American police department using. Anyways, I just thought that was kinda odd. -Gunman69 02:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree but on the other hand, I think, plot-wise or character-wise Hanna's choice makes sense. Maybe Hanna's guns were chosen for dramatic reasons, to show, how much a loner he was. You know, he's not playing by the rules, so he doesn't use the same guns as the rest of the team. And since he's the best cop ever, of course he's allowed to carry any gun he wants. Something like that. There are many movies in which the hero-cops carry stranger guns (Remember Sam Elliott playing a NY-cop with a .45 Winchester Magnum LAR Grizzly Pistol?). --Lastgunslinger 07:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

KP90

I do not think that Cheritto would be the kind of guy who would use this sort of pistol over something better like a Hi-Power or M1911. He seems like a fellow "Gun Guy", who would not be caught dead with such a crappy sidearm-S&Wshooter 01:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What makes the KP90 so "crappy"? I´ve shot a few rounds with a P89 some years ago. Can't say, it was a bad gun.

BTW I´ve always been under the impression, there are no really bad guns. Only bad shots. --Lastgunslinger 13:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how good a shot you are if your pistol falls apart when you fire it-S&Wshooter 03:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

And the KP90 tends to "fall apart"? Never heard of that. Any experiences? --Lastgunslinger 07:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Chuck Adamson. The real life inspiration for Vincent Hanna.

File:St46.png

(Chuck Adamson) as Barry Dorgan in blue blazer in The Stand. Adamson was the real life inspiration for the character Vincent Hanna in Heat.

He retired as a Lt. with the Chicago PD. He was the guy that Micheal Mann modeled Vincent Hanna after. He was a technical advisor on Heat and I believe the televison series Crime Story which was also produced by Mann.Chuck Adamson passed away on 02/22/2008. --Jcordell 21:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Duct tape?

At the beginning, I see DeNiro's Colt Model 654 with duct tape on the handguard. Is there a purpose for it? Because this has always bothered me when I rewatch the movie. Excalibur01 20:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know this for sure, but I would guess that it's to either make damn sure there are no fingerprints, or help it burn with that incendiary, or help with gripping the gun some way, or just look cool. Knowing Michael Mann, it's probably one of the former three, rather than the latter, and I'm guessing mostly the grip one.-protoAuthor 19:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, we can rule out the first option because De Niro is wearing gloves. -Gunman69 21:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought the duct tape was attaching a stop watch to the rifle, could be wrong though. -Toadvine

Trivia

Kind of cinematic/firearms related but I remember seeing a movie in the 1980's called "L.A. Takedown" and when I saw Heat I thought they had ripped off the movie. Then I read an article which confirmed Mann had made both and had considered the former a "dress rehearsal" for the latter. Anyways, I remember in "Takedown" the lead actor in the movie used a Franchi SPAS-15 in the final shootout proving, at least in my opinion, Mann always managed to make the weapons in his productions as exotic as the actors in them. --Charon68 03:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well maybe for LA Takedown, but in his other movies from Heat, Collateral, Miami Vice, and Public Enemies, the weapons weren't really "exotic". Maybe the SIG 552 used in Miami Vice, but all other guns since Heat were pretty normal. To me, it's the style of combat that is shown in Mann's movies that catches your eyes. Excalibur01 06:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually I should have said Mann delivers a little more variety in his flicks, television shows. With most "standard" police/crime dramas they have the usual firearms (Glocks, Berettas, AR-15 clones of some sort) whereas Mann adds things like the Strayer-Voigt Tiki in Miami Vice, the FNC in Heat, that sort of thing. --Charon68 21:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Hanna also used a nickel plated SIG-Sauer P226 in "LA Takedown", further proving your point. I know someone using a SIG isn't that uncommon nowadays, but it was rare back in 1989. At that time, only Rambo: First Blood Part II and Robocop featured the 226. And this was the first time that a nickel model was used. -Gunman69 05:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I too remember "LA Takedown". I thought it was cool to see the USAS-12 in action. I'm pretty sure it was the USAS-12 and not a Franchi SPAS-15. The only reason being that it was making the firearms writers circuit at the time, and it stood out with the 10-shot magazine onscreen. I still think that part of the anniversary Edition of HEAT should have been inclusion of LA Takedown, as I've not found a Region 1 DVD of it! - BC2009 19 December 2009

The shotgun used in "L.A. Takedown" was a SPAS-15, not a USAS-12. There are plenty of screengrabs of the movie online which confirm that the SPAS-15 was used. -MT2008

I stand corrected. I found video clips of the movie, including the bank heist/shootout. Daniel Baldwin started out with the SPAS-15. Standing erect in a "proper" hi-power rifle stance. God I'm glad to see part of the movie again!

The new pic that Ben41 uploaded

With the supposed M16A1 with A2 handguards. that looks like a Heavy barrel, so it would NOT be an A1. MoviePropMaster2008 19:23, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

So it's an actual A2? Should it be changed?--Ben41 00:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

How can it be an M16A2? It has an M16A1 receiver.--Oliveira 00:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Huh? The only difference between an A1 and A2 lower receiver (other than the 3 round burst) is that the back end of the A2 receiver is slightly fatter to resist cracking the ring that holds the rear buffer tube. How can you tell it's an A1 lower? I have to HOLD the two together in person in order to see the difference. Now if it's an SP1 lower, then that can be seen from a distance. If it is an SP1 lower (aka original M16 slab side) then an AR15 Heavy barreled upper receiver was installed on it. Either way, it's a franken gun and should be described in as much detail as possible. MoviePropMaster2008 04:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

It's a franken gun. We all know that. But we can't call it an M16A2 because of the lower receiver. I'm talking about the whole receiver here. The A1 lower and the A2 lower are almost the same thing. Except for the grip if you can say that the grip is part of the receiver. But the uppers are very different. I can tell the difference between the M16A2 and the M16 in Heat because of the upper receiver. The M16A2 upper has an Brass defletor and an different rear sight while the M16A1 upper has no deflector and a different sight. Of course I don't really know if the barrel is part of the upper receiver or if it can be removed. I also don't know if the sights can be separeted from the A1 or the A2 receiver, though.--Oliveira 17:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Video Game

I hope it actually gets made [1]

I don't know. Movie games tend to suck. It hasn't had a really good track record Excalibur01 05:33, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

That's usually when games are released the same day the movie is, causing the developers to rush-S&Wshooter 00:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

True. The Godfather games are good but they were able to take their time on both of them.--Jcordell 09:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Reorganizing Page

What do people think about reorganizing page by weapons? Since this is one of the most popular pages, I wanted to see if it's okay before I do it. --Ben41 18:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)