Talk:IMFDB Info: The History of M16s in Film and Television

M16A1s

The page says the following:

"So all Slab sided rifles are Colt. All correct A1 style rifles are probably going to be some other's manufacturer's gun."

Is this really true? I do realize that it would be easier and cheaper for most armories to buy civilian ARs and convert them to auto, but didn't some of them actually purchase large numbers of transferable LEO/mil-spec M16A1s in the 1970s and 80s? The M4A1 used by Colin Farrell in S.W.A.T., for instance, was assembled on a transferable M16A1 lower, and if you look at the picture at LMO's site, it appears to have Colt markings. So there must be at least some genuine Colt M16A1s circulating around the industry. -MT2008 20:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Right. This page needs more refined wordsmithing. All correct A1 style rifles that are not true M16A1s (i.e. all converted full auto rifles from semi auto rifles, WILL be other manufacturers. Colt never made a correct A1 for civilian sales until they JUMPED to the A2 style of rifle). But in the same page you quote from, I wrote that Full Auto M16A1s which were property marked U.S. Government were sold to Title II dealers and manufacturers or sold to Law Enforcement, who then later sold them to private individuals with Title II paperwork (All before May 1986 of course).

"quote: The only real M16A1s in movie armories were Law Enforcement Sales Models, which could be acquired if the Armory had a Title II sales or Manufacturing License with ATF."

The Army would not sell their old M16A1s, but Law Enforcement dealers or police departments or federal law enforcement agencies sold U.S. property marked M16A1 rifles all the time to Title II dealers who sold them to the general public (with Class III clearances of course). I've seen US Property marked Full auto guns in the collections of gun enthusiasts who had their Class III Tax Stamp, etc. (always in gun free states, that are NOT like California). MoviePropMaster2008 23:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, OK, I missed that part you quoted. Out of curiosity, do you know how many transferrable Colt M16A1s there are in the industry? (I don't mean an exact number, but are they relatively common in circulation?) Also, since you saw the Scarface M16A1 up close, was that a genuine Colt specimen? -MT2008 15:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Typo

In the Development of the M16A2 entry in the Movie Use section, it says remember Colt still insisted on continuing the slab sided lower receiver of the SP1. Shouldn't it say slab-sided upper receiver? Spartan198 11:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

No, MPM got it right. The early Colt AR-15 A2s (the ones with the M16A2-style upper receivers) still had the exact same slab-side lower receiver as the AR-15 Sporter models. My uncle's AR-15 A2, which he purchased brand-new in 1987, has a slab-side lower (no fencing around the magazine release button) but an A2 upper. I believe that around 1989 or so, Colt did actually start offering AR-15 A2s with the correct mil-style lower and the fencing around the mag release, but then shortly after that, the anti-AW crusade began and Colt chickened out and discontinued the AR-15 A2, replacing it with the "politically correct" Match Target rifles. So there wouldn't have been very many Colt AR-15 A2s with that style lower receiver available to civvies. -MT2008 15:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

We need more of these pages

I think this is a good page that teaches readers about the history of a particular gun and its place in movie history. I think there should be a page on other popular weapons like the MP5 or the 1911. Excalibur01

don't discriminate AK...

I agree, this page is really neat and we should definitely have ones for other weapons (AKs, H&Ks, and 1911s are a good place to start). -MT2008 16:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

That's all fine and good, but it's one thing to declare that we need something, another to actually do it.  :) Glad to see you're volunteering! ;) LOL! FYI It took MONTHS for me to track down Colt records and articles about the M16 (and culling out the BS info of which there is PLENTY on the net). It took MONTHS for me to track down specific examples of each firearm ... and photograph it. The problem with foreign guns is that the majority of their appearances in American cinema can be predicted (Until we started importing foreign AKs in the 2000s or built them here with parts kits, all AKs were either Maadi ARMs or Chinese Norincos or Polytechs. Foreign cinema is another matter). HK is the same way. There were FEW original guns imported into the US during the 1980s & 90s so armorers BUILT their HK guns from what was imported into the country.

This is still a work in progress. There is still information I am trying to verify and examples I'm trying to photograph. It is necessary work though. When we can clearly lay out this information in a chronological timeline, then identifying weapons becomes less of a byzantine task.  :) BTW, thanks. The comments here show that people are actually reading the page and absorbing the info. Again, I think IMFDB is the only place which HAS this type of info. Don't know if I'm wrong or not, but I think we CAN be a great resource to make sure this info doesn't get lost to the ages. :) MoviePropMaster2008 20:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Haha, don't worry, I'm not demanding you do it. I realize this page was a lot of work. I could maybe start out the AK page, though. There weren't very many types of semi-auto type AK firearms available in the U.S. during the 1980s (when the armories all bought/converted the same guns that they still use today). There were the Finish Valmets, the Egyptian Maadis, the Chinese Norincos and Poly Techs, the Hungarian SA-85Ms, and the Yugo M70s imported by Mitchell Arms. And the thing is, you've already photographed just about all of those types (except the SA-85M, but I used a picture of one on the page for 44 Minutes). I think we could also make clear that the page refers specifically to the AK rifles that AMERICAN (and, to a lesser extent, Canadian, European, and Australian armorers) would have had in inventory. Obviously, the movies filmed in Israel or South Africa were another matter entirely...but what do you think? Should I try to make a preliminary version of the page? -MT2008 20:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)