Talk:Black Hawk Down

Hoot's "M4"

I think the article should be amended to only mention the weapon seen on Hoot's person when he's confronted by Capt. Steele during chow time. The weapon he's holding in the screengrab of him being picked up by Wolcott and the Delta guys is the same M727 he uses in the rest of the film. --131.216.48.250 16:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the carbine Sanderson handed him had the knobs signifying a detachable carry handle. Spartan198 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Pretty damn sure. The front corner of that carry handle in the screencaps is too thin to be from an M4's carry handle. Definitely the mark of an A2 upper's carry handle as seen on M727s--24.253.69.199 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

This probably isn't very important, but...

I went through and corrected the abbreviated ranks. Most of them were in Marine Corps form as opposed to Army form (ex., SSgt vs SSG). Like I said, probably not worth mentioning, but it's a little detail that was bugging me. Spartan198 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Weapon used by delta force

M4 was issued in 1994 before the battle which took place in 1993 ...the weapon seen in the movie and used by Delta operators was CAR-15

If you'll look at the upper reciever and carry handle/rear-sight assembly, you'll see they match the M16A2-style of the early-model M4 carbine as shown in the picture above the screenshots. The CAR-15 (also known as the Colt Commando) used the recievers and carry handle/rear sight assembly of the M16A1. Orca1 9904 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, the stock is wrong for the CAR15...its an M4

:How is the stock "wrong"? And no M4 has the flash suppressor of the Car-15 Excalibur01

Isn't it more likely that Randy Shughart was actually carrying a Springfield M21 rather than the M14?

No, he was carrying a M14 during the actual battle and it is in his Medal of Honor citation. So its definitely a M14.

Do you happen to have a link to his MoH citation? The book accounted that Shughart used an M21. --Blemo 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

To Blemo - I've got the book in my lap. Page 208, and I quote, "They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip." Right there in black and white. --NMOne 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Your point about the issue date of the M4 flies in the face of the logic that "IT'S A MOVIE".-protoAuthor 01:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Your point about "It's a movie" is in the face of the logic that we shouldn't use our brains and common sense. It's like watching a 1920s movie and seeing someone riding into a scene with a 1970 Mustang. Would you use the "It's a movie" logic there? What about a WWII movie and you see an F-18 shooting sidewinders at a Japanese Zero? The point of this site is so that we do point of the little details. It's like in IMDB where it points out which movie a certain actor has been in and what his role is. The same here on this side except you replace "Actor" with "pick a gun". Accuracy is the whole point. Excalibur01

My point was, movies don't get things 100% correct.-protoAuthor 03:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes. Excalibur01 05:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Mistake?

There's a scene in the movie (1:37:53) where Yurek, Nelson and Twombly are about to rejoin the other Rangers at the Black Hawk crash site. While Yurek is on the radio to Eversmann (Josh Hartnett's character) he grabs a mag out of a Type 47 that a dead Somali soldier is still holding. Since the Rangers are all carrying 5.56 NATO M4A2s and FN Minimis, what would be the point of grabbing a 7.62mm mag? Seems like an odd oversight considering the camera kinda focuses on him taking the mag, and they've worked quite hard to maintain accuracy and detail in the film. Any ideas? Am I missing something? DamageW 06:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

What the hell is a Type 47?Oliveira 15:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

i dont know, but they did that so the weapon was useless for someone to pick up and use. He probaly just ditched it later. -The Winchester

He's talking about an AK-47, but Type 47 definately isn't the right term. I always assumed he took it as a memento or something, because anyone can reload a weapon even if the magazine is removed. - Gunmaster45

Actually, he grabs the mag because he's carrying an M60, and he probably figured he may be able to use the ammo later. Also, many SF types are known to, in extreme need, use the local weapons, and he may also have been preparing for that eventuality. Asmkillr323 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Taking AK rounds for an M60? the M60 fires 7.62x51 rounds, while the AK fires 7.62x39, plus you'd need to have the rounds already on a belt to be fired by an M60. M14fanboy 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that what Yurek was trying to do was deny the enemy ammunition should they pick up the AK. The Bowden's book accounted that many Somalis that were killed would have others reuse the same weapon. They briefly showed that when Busch was making his last stand by the downed chopper. Also, he may have kept it as a souvenir. It's not everyday you'll find a loaded AK magazine that had the potential to kill you. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 16:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I was suggesting that he was picking up the mag out of fear that at some point, he would need to resort to using an Ak, or that he would have the ammo if someone else had already been forced to pick up a local weapon. --Asmkillr323 05:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Also, What the motherfuck is an M4A2?-Oliveira 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The motherfuck that is an M4A2 is basically an M4 produced by another company such as Bushmaster Firearms. It's just another "M4gery". Also, Google is everyone's friend and it wouldn't hurt to ask it. ;) --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 02:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to think he kept it as a souvenir, although the actual reason was whenever a member of militia was killed they were extremely dedicated to retrieving the body and the firearm, so removing the magazine would have made it useless, although picking up the the weapon and smashing it to pieces would probably have worked betterOwen642 14:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Smashing the weapon would have been noisy and they were trying to be quiet at that point IIRC.

fair point but i was thinking more like removing the driver spring, and its probably just that it would have made one less magazine for the somalians to use

I think the reason is that the enemy has 30 rounds less against the rangers. It's like in 'Saving Privat Ryan': the rescue team left Steamboat Willy alive; so he could kill Captain Miller. A wise decision of Yurek, I think

I noticed another mistake. During the scene where Gordon and Shughart are holding off the Somalis at the crash sight there's a quick moment when Shughart is seen using an M16A2 rifle instead of his M14 rifle. And in the very next scene and all following he's back to using the M14. Ballistics_Expert2

Mike Durant's Book

In Mike Durant's book "The Night Stalkers" he quoted a few weapons he was using in the real life in the "Mog". I remember him talking about his MP5 not to metion he called it a "german piece of crap" for jamming. He also said Randy's Commando was on burst-fire 3 shots 1 kill. And the mini guns the rescue team could have been using can not run on the Black Hawk's batteries only on pure engine generating turbine power.

To be fair, Mike Durant also seems to know very little about firearms. Also note that his memory may be jarred by the fact that, you know, he had just suffered a fucking HELICOPTER CRASH. --Asmkillr323 00:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, helicopter pilots have to be trained with certain firearms in order to survive in the event of a crash. Durant at least knew how to clear the jam on the 9mm submachine gun. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

160th SOAR aircrews, being a part of ASOC are trained not only in their specific role in the aircraft, but also on how to continue with the mission at hand along with their "customers." Hence, they're well-familiarized with fighting with the weapons carried on board with them (in the case of what was aboard Super-64, MP5s for the pilots, M16s for the crewchiefs and M9s carried by all of them).

What baffles me is how his MP5 kept jamming (in the book atleast). I know they were in the desert, but that MP5 had been stashed inside a helicopter, so it wouldn't be all dusty and full of sand. Maybe it is a German piece of crap then M14fanboy 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it was dusty inside of the chopper. Flying around in a helicopter with the rotor wash sending dust, smoke, and sand into and around the cabin won't help the MP5 from jamming, either. Pilots don't normally clean their emergency back-up weapons as they're supposed to. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 16:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Helicopter crews don't regularly use their weapons and so may not be as maintenance-minded as a Ranger or Delta. That could be one reason it kept jamming. Spartan198 15:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The Hand

Does anyone know why that Ranger took the dead Delta Force member's hand?-Oliveira 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Probably to send it home with the rest of the body-76.31.5.208 16:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)

I figured that too. But it's kind of creepy going around carrying an dead man's severed hand in your pocket. What about the smell? However, if i died in combat, i would like if my body went home and i had an funeral.-Oliveira 16:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

In the book, Othic took the hand that he had found and put it in his pocket to return it to the Delta operator that was blown in half. He had placed it with his body after he died, but strangely the movie did not show that, and made it seem like Othic kept the hand. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 02:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't the Delta Operator's hand. The shots of MSGTTim "Griz" Martin after being hit by the RPG show his hand still intact. More likely it belonged to one of the other soldiers aboard the truck that got hit. MSGT Martin was shipped off to Germany IIRC where he succumbed to his wounds shortly after.

I bet it started to smell after a while-S&Wshooter 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Flashlight Attachment Help

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What is this type of flashlight attachment called?

What is the technical term for the flashlight to be attached to the barrel of the AR-15 series? It seems to be used only when there are handguards in place of the RIS railing. Sergeants Hoot, Busch, Sanderson, Gordon, and a couple other Deltas used the same attachment. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 01:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Before R.I.S. was introduced, I used to see a whole bunch of different flashlight attachments just like that one in the Blue Press. Some of them were even advertised as able to work on multiple types of weapons in the same caliber (i.e. AR-15s and Mini-14s). There were many different brands, so we can't be 100% sure what this movie's armorers used. -MT2008

Oh, thanks, but I didn't mean what brands the movie used. I meant, what the generic term for these types of attachments that connect the flashlight to the barrel are called. I'm thinking about purchasing one for an AR-15 platform without the RIS. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 03:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a barrel mount for a flashlight, that specific one was made by Surefire.

Like the above said, It's a barrel mounted flashlight, made by Surefire. I actually managed to buy one of them that had been used in the Operation Gothic Serpent theater. These are still a good alternative to adding the weight of a rail to your firearm. I believe the flashlight is a model 600 or something similar.--Asmkillr323 05:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

M4 in 1994?

Question about the M4 not being period correct. If the events took place in September 1993 and the M4 went into service sometime in 1994, isn't possible that members of an elite group like Delta Force could have gotten their hands on a couple?

I'd say it's plausible that Delta could have been field-testing a few XM4s that day. Spartan198

In today's case, some special units are using the HK416 in the field. It likely that this was also the case with the M4 in 1993. That, or the armorers to the film got lazy and decided to throw in a few M4's for the M4 fans. Unlikely, but movies will do this. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 15:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well it isn't completely out there that at the time US special forces can get their hands on some experimental weapons and field test them. But I think for this movie, they just ran out of Car-15s to give to the Delta actors.Excalibur01 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)he

The m4 was used in service since 1997 it is not possible for an m4 to be used.the delta operators may have used a xm117e2.

Just because it didn't go into service until 94 or 97 doesn't mean D-boys didn't have a hold of them. There could well have been a prototype (or many test models) sent out with D-boys to see if the rifle performed to what was expected.

More than likely just an error. The simplest explanation is usually correct (Occam's Razor) BA More likely than not the M4 in the film is simply an anachronism due to a shortage of Colt Commandos. --AdAstra2009 02:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I have explained elsewhere that the Colt Model 727 carbine, which LOOKS just like an early M4 (but has a semi/full-auto trigger group, rather than semi/burst as on the Model 777, AKA the earliest M4) was introduced in the late-1980s. -MT2008 05:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The 727 has a fixed carry handle, though. Spartan198 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

So did the Model 777, which is the first gun that was ever adopted by the U.S. military as the "M4". The 727 and 777 are the same gun aside from their trigger groups. -MT2008 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Shughart and the M14/M16 switch

Does anyone know if Shughart briefly using an M16A2 while defending Durant's crash site is intentional or a mistake? Spartan198

intentional, in the book moments beforehand hed asked durant where the spare weapons were kept aboard the black hawk, and for some reason this scene was omitted from the film. Shughart had ran dry with his 7.62 M14 and so couldnt have used the 5.56 from the M16 mags. :)

Yeah, Shughart asked if there were any spare rifles or radios after Gordon got shot. This caused Durant to realize that Gordon may have been hit and that they were stranded on their own. However, the book didn't mention Shughart actually using the M16. --Blemo File:Progress Wheel.gif ^TALK • _{CONTRIBUTIONS} • _EMAIL • _MESSAGE 15:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, good point, but i dont get why brad hallings didnt join them? he could have done so much more on the ground than on the black hawk, especially since he had his leg blown off up there aswell. oh and btw, im a newcomer, how do i tag comments with my name at the end?

By putting four ~ at the end of every message.-Oliveira 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

thanks :) Owen642 00:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe the reason why Halling didn’t insert with the Shughart and Gordon was because by the time the team was given the go-ahead to insert, Halling had taken control of the minigun due to a member of the helicopter crew being injured.--Mauser 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

i dont know if he was actually using it, but in the movie version i think were supposed to think he took from a crew chief (since they carried an m16a2

the guy must have to taken the m16 from one of the blackhawk passengers and the blackhawks do carry spare weapons on board. (actual assassin)

Change made to 1911 article/picture

Not sure where IMDB gets its info from, but Kim Coates plays Master Sergeant Tim 'Griz' Martin, the unfortunate Delta operator who was blown in half by the RPG when the convoy is attempting to extract. He is not the Delta operator seen using the 1911 at the firing range and the picture and article have been edited for correction.

--NMOne 19:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

All the Delta Force members' names were changed for the film except for Busch, Shughart and Gordon. "Wex" is the name credited to Kim Coates in the end credits. --Ben41 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Anybody else notice that when Wex is firing his 1911, he's walking down the range towards the targets while people behind him are still firing? seems kind of unsafe.--Pølaris 19:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

-- In a deleted scene, it is shown that Eversman calls cease fire on the range in response to him moving into the line of fire, and just responding to such percieved recklessness by simply muttering "Fuckin' Delta..."--24.253.69.199 22:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

on topic of 1911s does anyone know what kind of 1911s they really used? for example i find it hard to believe they would be using normal 1911s when the MK.IVs were out

-- They were regular M1911A1s as it is cheaper for the armorers to use GI style pistols instead of procuring brand new weapons or paying a pistolsmith for costly modifications on movie props that could later be used in other films. In reality, Delta operators would take their issued 1911s (which were often relics found in the supply system) and have them done by some of the best pistolsmiths they could find to do the work (or do the work in-house when at all possible). Some of that talent rubbed off on the operators themselves; Larry Vickers, a former Delta Operator himself, is one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the business and is one of the go-to guys for Delta's custom 1911s.

Dillon/GE Miniguns

The Miniguns during the actual event would have been GE M134s. The Miniguns in the movie were Dillon Aero Miniguns, but not quite M134Ds. They had some of the DA upgrades on them though. That's from the commentary and some interviews online with Dillon Aero. I remember it being mentioned in one of the special features that the Dillon guns in the movie could have been fired off the Black Hawk's batteries, but the older GE ones in the real incident would have been unuseable at the crash site.

870 Remington Shotgun.

Not sure if this is worth noting, but in real life, the operator on who SGT. Sanderson was based, Paul Howe, had his shotgun rigged under his CAR-15 in a "Masterkey" configuration. Also, it can be seen being used in the directors cut to breach a door.

Rescue Heli Star 41

The AH-6, that inbounds to Wolcott's crash site (Star 41), has miniguns and rocket pods. The helicopter that is finally landing at the chrashed Black Hawk hasn't any weapons onboard, so probably a MH-6.

Continuity error most likely. Spartan198 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Flashlights

I watched the movie, and I was wondering, if Delta force had flashlights on their M733 and M727's, why didnt they use them? I could see that they would want to keep stealth in night, but if they're firing at the enemy, the muzzle flash would show their position anyway.

Actors probably forgot or were never told Excalibur01

Flashlights are not going to give you enough illumination to shoot at targets across buildings. They're better for room clearing. Besides you wouldn't use them if you have NOD's. --Ben41 02:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)v

does anyone no how they would have mounted the tac-lights back then? like now-a-days we have RIS/Picatanny rails. then they would mod it to the barrel. how would they do that if they have a shotgun under the barrel? Larry Vickers mentioned that he hose clamped his to the bottom of the barrel. but he didnt have a masterkey. any suggestions? Dirtdiver6421 15:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hose clamped it to the side or top of the barrel? -Ranger01 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Larry had his hose-clamped to the bottom. he used his in Panama (acid Gambit) i was surprised at how resoursefull they were. he also took some cardboard and put them inbetween Mags for a quick reload. and the aimpoint on his gun looked ancient. 71.194.219.9 22:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Possible Error?

Anyone notice that the picture of Sanderson firing his M727 during the Mogadishu Mile? It looks like the chamber is clear and the bolt is open. That means the weapon is empty, but in the movie you still hear two more shots before he switches to his sidearm. Is it just the angle, or is it just an error in continuity?--MarineCorps1 23:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a continuity error, a continuity error would be when one seen a guy has a 1911 and the next he suddenly has a Beretta M9. I can't say for I don't remember this. --FIVETWOSEVEN 16:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Actor in the Specials

Do we see this actor in Delta costume in the movie often? Because all the behind the scenes shot is this guy and I don't recognize him. Is he an extra that is like way in the back of the other guys? Excalibur01 05:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

What guy?-Ranger01 05:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This guy

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An actor aims Durant's MP5 in movie armory. Note the other weapons behind him.

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An actor in Delta clothes shows M16A2 in the movie armory.

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Delta actor shows vehicle-mounted M60s.

Seriously

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Delta Force SFC Sanderson (William Fichtner) fires his M1911A1 during the "Mogadishu Mile". It seems unlikely a well trained operator would wear his flight gloves like shown.

Seriously? A well trained operator wouldnt wear his gloves like that? This mall-ninja crap needs to stop. Theres no special way to wear flight gloves, you put the goddamn things on and wear 'em. -Winn

- I believe the comment means it isn't likely he'd wear them while shooting - Full-finger gloves can be obstructive/restrictive when it comes to finger movement, which isn't exactly a good thing when you need to make accurate shots. StanTheMan 01:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Honestly how would anyone here really know....are any of you "operators"?? -and if you say yes I'm going to say that your lying.....I'm going to delete that quip about his gloves in the caption, it's not hard to shoot with gloves on, especially flyers gloves. --AdAstra2009 03:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, it just bugs the living shit outta me when armchair commandos think they know operator/tactical/omfgdelta stuff. -Winn

- Well, I'm indeed no 'operator', but I don't have to be one to know that it is hard to shoot with some gloves, especially if your making distance shots. But I'm not familiar with flight gloves specifically, so I guess they're no trouble. In any case, just providing my thoughts - seemed to me the context of Winn's comment was that he was saying the gloves need to be worn some special way (and Winns right - they're gloves, what special way is there), but that's the problem with text sometimes. Anyway, I never gave the comment much thought myself. I'm personally more peeved about quips on peoples (actors) stances myself.

Something I always found a bit funny about that particular scene - Sanderson misses the two targets with his 727 carbine (firing several shots), yet hits them both with one .45 shot each (or actually, maybe one was hit twice, and the other once). Heh. But of course, I'd imagine some people can actually be better with a handgun than a rifle in some instances. StanTheMan 17:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)