Talk:M16 rifle series

Additional Variants

M4A1 with ACOG scope and Surefire M500AB weaponlight - 5.56x45mm.

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An Olympic Arms AR15 (note: Olympic arms did not renamed their rifles with the "K" designation until after the 1990s) with A2 Handguards and the Olympic Arms stowaway pistol grip - 5.56mm.

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CAR-15 SMG - 5.56x45mm

XM177 - 5.56x45mm with M203 grenade launcher 40mm

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CAR-15 like the one used in Uncommon Valor - 5.56mm.

Demarco C7 Assault Rifle

What catigory should I include the Canadian C7 Assault Rifle. the Early ones were effectivly M-16A2's with a full auto lower. I'm not quite sure that I should make a section for the weapon as the lattest versions are now optic sighted and are a unique varient that is standard issue to both Canada and the Neatherlands.Rockwolf66

Is it really necessary...

...to have an entry dedicated to the M16 and M203, when we already have an M203 page at M203 grenade launcher? Looking over the history of both pages, it looks to me as though the M203 page was added a while after the M16 page entry on the M16/M203 was in place, since the M16 page is one of the oldest on the site.

I propose that we merge the entry under the M16 page with the entry on the M203 page.

Interesting

...I seriously doubt anyone will ever see an underslung version of the M203 used in a film, all by itself, ...

but there have been stand alone M203 launchers (modified with a pistol grip and stock like the M79LF 37mm launchers) as well as the M203 being attached to guns other than the M16 (take Rambo III for example where they attached it to an AK). Having a section on the M16 w M203 on the M16 page makes sense since that is where people will look if they're curious about that particular combo appearing in a movie. But I like having a separate page for the M203 to address more detailed history of the launcher plus any applications where the launcher is used with other weapons. Just a thought...

We do need a page where M203s are used as stand alone launchers, rare, but it has happened. But we should shift all M203s underslung to M16s to the M16 Page and have a note directing users to that page when looking for that combination on the M203 page. Just IMHO.... MoviePropMaster2008 01:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The M16A4 pictures

They don´t look like M16A4s to me.
Sick-vice 20:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

They are. They are M16s with removable carry handles, meaning they are A4s. -GM

I will be posting some A4 pics soon ;) MoviePropMaster2008 01:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

M4A1

I re-uploaded the M4A1 with the LE stock and carry handle because the LE stock makes it different from the other picture, so it can be used. -GM

Well, the new one has the LE stock, too, but I guess having a "plain" M4 with that stock is nice. I forget...did MPM take this pic himself, or is it from somewhere else? He mentioned that some of the pics he uploaded are placeholders until he could get better ones.

That one that GM reloaded is not mine (though I originally put it up as a placeholder) ... (hopefully people can tell the quality difference). I fully intend to do a large high resolution version of all the configurations (like the others). As people can tell, I've been re-uploading some of my older (shot on film and scanned) pics with HIGH res digital pics. So, it's okay to have it as long as I can replace it with a new pic of the exact same configuration. MoviePropMaster2008 01:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Do well really need to have an "A2" and "A3" category?

MoviePropMaster2008 has already explained that just about all of the "M16A2s" used in movies are actually A2 uppers on A1 lowers, often with A1 flash hiders. By this definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", and might actually be considered M16A3s roughly. But since they're usually seen impersonating M16A2s, I say designate by receiver style only (both the A2 and A3 have what is usually called the "A2 receiver").

In other words, I think we should ditch the M16A3 category completely. It makes no sense to distinguish between A2s and A3s when basically all of the "Hollywood" A2s and A3s are the same type of gun. -MT2008 20:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I never got anyone's feedback on this, but...I decided to go ahead and ditch the M16A3 entry, for the reasons I explained above. It doesn't make sense to try and distinguish between "A2s" and "A3s" in movies when MoviePropMaster has explained that they're all basically the same thing - A2-style uppers on fully automatic A1 lowers. By that definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", but since they're obviously supposed to portray such rifles in movies, it makes more sense to call them A2s. -MT2008 01:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, because the M16A3 was made for Navy SEALs and SeeBees, no civilian hands hae touched them. -Winchester (1-26-09)

I believe the 1995 remake of Village of the Damned portrayed the National Guard using burst fire. --AdAstra2009 03:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

(the above was in reply to a comment that the author deleted as i posted.) --AdAstra2009 03:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Also I think Colt sold A3s to foreign entities, National police of allied countries, Elite units, etc. Any country with which we are friendly and Colt has sold weapons in the past. I've heard that A3s were sold as samples to France, U.K. and Germany (but that was a casual comment that I heard years ago). There 'could' be A3s in the armories of foreign movie productions. That is a completely grey area with which I have no one to verify anything.  :( MoviePropMaster2008 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

This is strange. I posted a comment here a couple hours ago, asking how many movies are there were burst fire is portrayed? I know Black Hawk Down has one instant. Excalibur01 05:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The caption to the M16A1 w/ M16A2 handguards...

I was in the National Guard in the early '90's and that's exactly what we had. I was also issued an M16A1 with A2 handguards in basic training.

It turns out that it's simpler and--from what I heard--cheaper to replace the 'A1 guards with 'A2 guards because the 'A2's are less complex and you only need to stock one type instead of 'lefts' and 'rights'. Also, the 'A1'a in the national guard were freshly rebuilt, tested, and had the serial numbers laser etched into the bolt carriers. They were issued with all 'A2 furniture.

Yeah, I've seen plenty of A1s with A2 hand guards elsewhere. In fact, if you ever watch footage of the current offensive into Gaza, you can see both IDF personnel and Hamas militants using them. The Israelis received a lot of M16A1s and have updated many of them with the M16A2 hand guards. Many of these rifles were passed into Israeli's "allies" in Fatah, and then Hamas stole plenty of them during their war with Fatah (some were also probably stolen from the IDF themselves). -MT2008 22:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

just for the record here is an M16A1 with A2 handguards in service

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RP Marines armed with M16A1s with A2 handguards.

--AdAstra2009 22:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Mark 12 Special Purpose Rifle

Does anyone have an image of one? -User:AdAstra2009

I put one on the Live Free or Die Hard page that I took from another site. -MT2008 01:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks I pasted it from that page but we should probably look into getting a noncopyrighted one. -User:AdAstra2009

Well, you can ask MoviePropMaster2008 if he has a Mark 12 upper in his company's inventory. I imagine he also knows armorers at Cinema Weaponry (the guys who supplied the weapons for Live Free or Die Hard), so he might even be able to get us one of the same guns used in that movie. But he's very busy of course and has LOTS of other image requests to tend to, so it might be a while before he gets around to it. -MT2008

Rate of Fire on the M16A1

Does anyone know the rate of fire on the M16A1?Oliveira 22:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I assume it's about 800 rounds a minute Excalibur01 08:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

That would be correct, it's around 750 to 800 RPM. Spartan198 15:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

What is this?

It's not really from a movie, but a music video, and I havn't been able to figure out what this AR is yet, there are two others in the video, one's an M16A1, the other an A2, but I just can't figure this one out.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle1.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle2.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle3.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle4.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle5.JPG

Looks like an M733, what is this from? Excalibur01 08:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The gun in the first 'cap looks different from the CAR-15s in the other pictures. Maybe it's a fake XM177?-Oliveira 12:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

It's from the music video for Hero Of War by Rise Against, the main soldier uses it, his two buddies use an M16A1 and M16A2, I'm almost 100% sure there are only three rifles in the video. Yeah, I'm thinking M733 too... Alex T Snow

XM607 Commando Carbine

I do remember the weapon from Pink Caddilac an XM607, or an AR-15 modified to imitate one. The weapon may not have been officially adopted but kits were released to the public though:

• 1
• 2
• 3

Cutaway 18:54PM, 3/7/2009 (UTC)

I changed the entry after I watched the trailer for the movie. The trailer is on YouTube, and the gun in question is visible at the 00:27-00:28 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LddykTA8nVg

That is definitely an older-model LaFrance Specialties M16K. It doesn't have the triangular front sight post of the XM607. -MT2008 18:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The Photoshopped M16 images

Can people please stop posting the images of M16 variants that were edited using MPM's photos? There's a reason I've removed them before. We don't need to have every variant on the page, and many of them are inaccurate, anyway. The only one we allow is the XM16E1, because we don't have a good photo of one of those yet, and even that may get replaced. -MT2008

• The Colt 607 image I posted wasn't one of MPM's [unless someone stole it and re-hosted it], I got it from google. Only put it here because the page for the The World Is Not Enough videogame didn't have a 607 image. Vangelis 05:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

XM1771 Shorty

What the F is this? This is an airsoft gun!! Judging by the MODELGUNS.UK watermark that someone stole it from. And the 10" with Birdcage and heavy barrel is NOT an XM177 variant. MoviePropMaster2008 23:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't but this gun used on Miami Vice

I checked, not even close. I fixed Miami Vice and this gun is NOT an XM177, XM177 is a military designation. MPM2008

Why do we have Colt Model 727 by itself

When the Model 727 is just the commercial Colt name for the M4 carbine? it doesn't make sense to have the exact GUN made by Colt with it's commercial name (for law enforcement sales or international sales) with a separate category, when it should just be merged in with the M4/M4A1 category. The M16 page is getting out of control. MPM2008

I agree that the Model 727 should be merged with the M4 category, but it's not exactly a commercial name for an M4. The Model 777 is the commercial name for the very first M4 (the one that didn't have the detachable carry handle). The 727 and 777 are identical, but the 727 is safe-semi-auto and the 777 is safe-semi-burst. -MT2008

Good point. But in the overall view, I think all that info (a) should be in the M4 category, (b) should be a footnote, NOT a separate category and (c) people are endlessly creating separate categories for weapons that are essentially the same guns as other categories. Experienced IMFDB users/Mods already know that most of the M16 variants seen in films are build ups of other guns. We usually just get the accessories and barreled uppers and put them on our full auto or semi auto lowers. Why spend thousands to get new guns when we're sitting on dozens and dozens of other M16s? Also, in VideoGames and Anime, again, they don't have to specify the new or commercial model unless it's specifically stated or named explicitly. Even then it can be a footnote in the original category.

BTW: I have a short break from my movie shooting schedule, so I am going to try to get some more M16 Variant pics for the page, so we don't have to endlessly jack AIRSOFT or Guns of the World images for the newer models. MoviePropMaster2008 20:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Adding images

I'm getting a little annoyed with people adding images we don't need on the page, including many that are crap and which aren't necessary. Not to mention that half of them aren't even using the "br clear=all" command to ensure that the images won't drift into the next gun entry. So, I'm putting a stop to this now. No more without talking about it here first. Next person who doesn't respect my wishes gets a 1-week time out. -MT2008 17:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

They're still doing it. I have removed the custom A1 upper mounted on an SP1 lower with A2 handguards from this page several times. It is not a common real like frankengun (but it has happened). I originally built this and photographed it for the HEAT page until better screenshots proved that Wes Studi's AR15 was an A1 style lower, not an SP1. MoviePropMaster2008 21:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, for some reason, these users seem to think that every single picture of a gun needs to be on it's page. It especially frustrates me when they're sticking all customized guns that only appear in one movie onto a page, they may look cool, but they're not even standard configurations! All they end up doing is turning the gun page into a cluttered, sloppy mess of pictures, I mean just look at the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 pages.--Alienqueen11 22:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Would it be alright if I added the following image to the M4/M4A1 with M203 Grenade Launcher section?

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M4A1 5.56x45mm with M68 Aimpoint red dot scope, flip-up rear sight, and M203 grenade launcher 40mm

Figured that since the other sections on the page have pics of the 'basic' and 'tricked-out' versions, why not this one? Orca1 9904 21:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Removing Colt 607

The image is wrong. A year long project of building and turns out that I've been working on incorrect information from (believe it or not) a BOOK on the M16. Will get the REAL XM177 series so we will be the definitive place to see what the actual field variants were. Also We need to figure out away to veer this page back to what is actually USED in movies & TV. Since a lot of these guns were never sold to the general public, the ONLY way for them to appear in films is to modify civilian models. So which is it? Put it in order of real military guns? (Which is why I don't like reality shows like Lock & Load or Anime or Videogames, because they're the ONLY ones who have access to military weapons which no one else (outside the military) will ever have.) It messes up how we organize the page. MoviePropMaster2008 19:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

AR-15 Sporter Carbine

we should put the images that are on the IMFDB Info - The History of M16s in Film and Television instead of the ones that we have in that section. Dillinger

Actually the Colt Sporter II Carbine that is listed in Tropical Thunder is NOT technically a Colt rifle. The rifles in Tropic Thunder have a raised rib around the magazine release button. The Colt Sporter II carbine had an SP1 lower receiver. So it is another manufacturer's gun. It seems the more I research M16 guns, the more I realize that most stuff is NOT Colt, which makes it really hard since there were so many AR15 builders who have since gone under, and so many NEW AR15 builders NOW coming out of the woodwork. MoviePropMaster2008 06:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I Will put the images on the Sporter Carbine Section, God Bless and dont mind you. [[User:Dillinge|Dillinger]

If you're going to put Sporter II and Sporter Is in the same section, at least title the section correctly. MoviePropMaster2008 19:50, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry.

A Warm Thank-You

For years I have been trying to find out what the guns were Peter & Roger used in Dawn of the Dead. This site solved what the problem so many other "gun experts" on IMDb could not. Again, thank you.

Thats what IMFDB is for =) --AdAstra2009 18:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's See If You Can Figure This Out

I couldn't find a real picture so I put this together. Its an M4A1 with the old style stock, and a straight (no cuts) 16" barrel; or its a Sporter (or one of those older three number ones like that) with a removable carry handle; take your pick. I was just wondering what it actually is...

P.S. Every detail is intentional and exactly how its supposed to be even though its not a real picture, just so everyone knows that. ;)

It would be a hybrid commercial AR variant. It has an M16A1 style lower receiver, so it is NOT a Sporter I or II. Basically, it's an M4 Carbine with a flat top and detachable carry handle, with an old style buttstock and a civilian HBAR Carbine barrel outfitted with RIS forearms. Various manufacturers made similar guns to this design, like Bushmaster and a few others. Also many builders of AR15s made similar guns from parts kits from M&A, Patriot Arms, (the now defunct Nesard), Sun Valley, and others. With the advent of custom builds from aftermarket parts from dozens of manufacturers, the AR15 has become the ultimate "mutt". I can tell you this is NOT an issued military variant, so it would NOT have an "M" designation unless it was built from an M4 to begin with. Also nearly everyone uses the step down M4 style barrels for carbines, unless it's the ultra light. The HBAR Carbine style barrels are becoming rarer by the day since their heyday was the 1990s. MoviePropMaster2008 07:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, very informative answer. This is the "M4 Carbine" in Call Of Duty 4, and I've been trying to figure out exactly what it really is for a while. I didnt say where it was from because I figured the answer I'd get would be something like "its a videogame, so its probably not a real model", but I knew that ;) I like the look and have been trying to make it as an airsoft project, this helps a lot... too bad airsoft HBAR barrels are very hard to come by. Alex T Snow 07:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

How did you make that? At first I thought it was Pimp My Gun, but PMG doesn't have an M16A1 pistol grip yet. Spartan198 14:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

No, you thought right my friend, it is Pimp My Gun, I just used MS Paint to remove the little finger nub and made the HBAR barrel by copying and pasting the largest part of the barrel over the rest of it. That's all the "photoshopping" that I did. Alex T Snow 07:45, 13

February 2010 (UTC) If it's from CoD4, then blame lack of details on modelers that made that gun model. They simply saved some poligons for improved performance of the game. Same thing with lack of gas-block when front sight is removed. It supposed to be M4A1 and i'm 100% sure they had pictures of military issued M4A1's as a reference.

Which M16 do you prefer?

Do you like the M16A1 or the M16A2?

I liked the M16A1 better because you can "spray" with it. While M16A2 you can't, and I wouldn't use burst fire a close range even though M16s are not a good close range gun. Which one do you like?

Why on earth would you want to "spray" with an M16A1? Furthermore, full-auto versions of the A2 exist (although the Army calls them "M16A3"). So I'm not sure why that's a good reason. -MT2008

It's just my opinion and that I like and prefer fully automatic assault rifles.

Again, A2s can be full-auto. I'm not sure how anyone can prefer the A1 to the A2, given the fact that the A2 has (among other things): a thicker barrel with better rifling (allowing sustained fire with improved accuracy and less overheating), a better flash hider which reduces muzzle flash and recoil considerably compared to the A1 "birdcage" design, a brass deflector, and far better sights. It's an improvement in every way over the A1, besides the fact that it also weighs more.

I take it you've never actually shot a real gun, and certainly not an M16? -MT2008

Its well known, that burst-fire mode was adopted based on experience from VN conflict, where those green pipsqueak hippies sprayed the bushes with their FA M16A1's.

I would prefer full-auto M16 with heavy barrel and, preferably, collapsible stock every day of the week. I don't see a great of benefit in 3-round burst, really. If i would need precise shots, i would just do singles.

M16A1 series' portray

In the present, does anyone think that like the Ak47 and its variants, the M16A1 series is sometimes stereotypically portrayed as a bad guy's gun? I've seen the IRA, FARC guerillas, Mexican drug lords and some gangbangers use them. Overall is this true?

In the real world, the USSR dumped millions of AKs into the hands of satellite states and insurgents around the world. In the Vietnam and immediate post Vietnam years the U.S. dumped millions of M16A1s to our allies. With the fall of Vietnam, all of the South Vietnamese M16A1s ended up in the hands of communist guerillas (as well as the AK). The AK and the M16 were the most prolifically distributed weapons of the last 50 years. There is no conspiracy to make them 'look bad'. They're in the hands of everyone so it is invevitable.