Talk:Norinco Group

Discussion

Many of the guns we call "Norinco" aren't actually manufactured by Norinco

In my recent research into Chinese firearm manufacturers, I found out that many of the guns that we call "Norinco" guns aren't actually manufactured by Norinco Group. Because gun names are typically prefixed by the names of their designers and manufacturers, the use of "Norinco" in these gun names is thus a misnomer that incorrectly suggests that they are manufactured by Norinco.

• Many historical Chinese guns were manufactured by Chinese state companies before the creation of Norinco (export company, founded in 1980) and Norinco Group (original incarnation founded in 1988).
  • Example: The Type 54 pistol, Type 56 assault rifle, Type 64 submachine gun, and Type 64 pistol were all originally and primarily manufactured by Factory 626 ("triangle 66" roll mark factory), and their blueprintes were also originally made by Factory 626 before being shared with other Chinese state factories. Factory 626 was folded into Shougang Group in 1988, and no longer manufactured military ordnances. Though Norinco Group subsidiaries likely manufactured some of these weapons, their primary maker, i.e. Factory 626, never became a part of Norinco Group. (Source)
• Many contemporary Chinese guns assumed to have been designed/manufactured by Norinco Group are actually designed and made by China South Industries Group and its subsidiaries, most notably Jian She.
  • Example: The contemporary Chinese service pistol and rifle, the QBZ-95 and QSZ-92, are both actually manufactured by Jian She, a subsidiary of the China South Industries Group. (Source 1, Source 2)

Based on the above reasons, and for the additional reason that most sources outside of IMFDB do not prefix these gun names with Norinco, I would like to propose that we cut all cases of "Norinco" from the names of Chinese guns on IMFDB. --Wuzh (talk) 23:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't China North Industries Co. Ltd.'s exports still be listed?

Other manufacturer pages I'm aware of, like Springfield Armory, Inc and Winchester Repeating Arms, include firearms imported by them in addition to those manufactured directly. Shouldn't stuff still be listed here, even if it's under a separate section of the article? --VladVladson (talk) 04:22, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

There is no hard and fast rule regarding whether or not imported/exported weapons should be included on manufacturer pages. While I see merit in your arguments, personally I believe that Norinco-exported weapons shouldn't be listed on the Norinco Group page because:

1. The "manufactured by Norinco" misconception is so widespread, including those weapons on this page might inadvertently reinforce that belief if people just skim through the page
2. Norinco is not Norinco Group; this page's topic is formally focused on Norinco Group as a manufacturer (who are known to manufacture some Chinese missile systems), and only secondarily describes Norinco the export company to dispel misconceptions
3. I personally don't think imported/exported weapons should be listed on manufacturer pages (incl. things like Springfield Armory Hellion on the Springfield page), as the category name suggests that the guns on these pages are manufactured by the companies, rather than imported/exported by them

--Wuzh (talk) 20:13, 8 March 2023 (UTC)