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Talk:M16 rifle series
Additional Variants
this is the marushin cap gun?--Kin93 07:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right, it is, so this is one of the FIRST guns I need to photograph (a real one) and replace this Airsoft abomination. MoviePropMaster2008 07:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually thats a ICS airsoft M4 with the grip and laser box....
Interesting
...I seriously doubt anyone will ever see an underslung version of the M203 used in a film, all by itself, ...
but there have been stand alone M203 launchers (modified with a pistol grip and stock like the M79LF 37mm launchers) as well as the M203 being attached to guns other than the M16 (take Rambo III for example where they attached it to an AK). Having a section on the M16 w M203 on the M16 page makes sense since that is where people will look if they're curious about that particular combo appearing in a movie. But I like having a separate page for the M203 to address more detailed history of the launcher plus any applications where the launcher is used with other weapons. Just a thought...
- We do need a page where M203s are used as stand alone launchers, rare, but it has happened. But we should shift all M203s underslung to M16s to the M16 Page and have a note directing users to that page when looking for that combination on the M203 page. Just IMHO.... MoviePropMaster2008 01:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Makes sense, that configuration. Also, there was a standalone M203 on Bones, and there might be others (sometime WAY in the future, when a director wants to use a "modern" version of an M79, like how James Cameron used the fictional roto-craft in place of the Huey).
Do well really need to have an "A2" and "A3" category?
MoviePropMaster2008 has already explained that just about all of the "M16A2s" used in movies are actually A2 uppers on A1 lowers, often with A1 flash hiders. By this definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", and might actually be considered M16A3s roughly. But since they're usually seen impersonating M16A2s, I say designate by receiver style only (both the A2 and A3 have what is usually called the "A2 receiver").
In other words, I think we should ditch the M16A3 category completely. It makes no sense to distinguish between A2s and A3s when basically all of the "Hollywood" A2s and A3s are the same type of gun. -MT2008 20:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I never got anyone's feedback on this, but...I decided to go ahead and ditch the M16A3 entry, for the reasons I explained above. It doesn't make sense to try and distinguish between "A2s" and "A3s" in movies when MoviePropMaster has explained that they're all basically the same thing - A2-style uppers on fully automatic A1 lowers. By that definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", but since they're obviously supposed to portray such rifles in movies, it makes more sense to call them A2s. -MT2008 01:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, because the M16A3 was made for Navy SEALs and SeeBees, no civilian hands hae touched them. -Winchester (1-26-09)
I believe the 1995 remake of Village of the Damned portrayed the National Guard using burst fire. --AdAstra2009 03:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
(the above was in reply to a comment that the author deleted as i posted.) --AdAstra2009 03:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Also I think Colt sold A3s to foreign entities, National police of allied countries, Elite units, etc. Any country with which we are friendly and Colt has sold weapons in the past. I've heard that A3s were sold as samples to France, U.K. and Germany (but that was a casual comment that I heard years ago). There 'could' be A3s in the armories of foreign movie productions. That is a completely grey area with which I have no one to verify anything. :( MoviePropMaster2008 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- This is strange. I posted a comment here a couple hours ago, asking how many movies are there were burst fire is portrayed? I know Black Hawk Down has one instant. Excalibur01 05:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I've seen some films that had three round burst fire. I will try to get the titles and list them 205.172.16.102 01:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
The caption to the M16A1 w/ M16A2 handguards...
I was in the National Guard in the early '90's and that's exactly what we had. I was also issued an M16A1 with A2 handguards in basic training. It turns out that it's simpler and--from what I heard--cheaper to replace the 'A1 guards with 'A2 guards because the 'A2's are less complex and you only need to stock one type instead of 'lefts' and 'rights'. Also, the 'A1'a in the national guard were freshly rebuilt, tested, and had the serial numbers laser etched into the bolt carriers. They were issued with all 'A2 furniture.
- Yeah, I've seen plenty of A1s with A2 hand guards elsewhere. In fact, if you ever watch footage of the current offensive into Gaza, you can see both IDF personnel and Hamas militants using them. The Israelis received a lot of M16A1s and have updated many of them with the M16A2 hand guards. Many of these rifles were passed into Israeli's "allies" in Fatah, and then Hamas stole plenty of them during their war with Fatah (some were also probably stolen from the IDF themselves). -MT2008 22:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
just for the record here is an M16A1 with A2 handguards in service
--AdAstra2009 22:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Mark 12 Special Purpose Rifle
Does anyone have an image of one? -User:AdAstra2009
- I put one on the Live Free or Die Hard page that I took from another site. -MT2008 01:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks I pasted it from that page but we should probably look into getting a noncopyrighted one. -User:AdAstra2009
- Well, you can ask MoviePropMaster2008 if he has a Mark 12 upper in his company's inventory. I imagine he also knows armorers at Cinema Weaponry (the guys who supplied the weapons for Live Free or Die Hard), so he might even be able to get us one of the same guns used in that movie. But he's very busy of course and has LOTS of other image requests to tend to, so it might be a while before he gets around to it. -MT2008
Rate of Fire on the M16A1
Does anyone know the rate of fire on the M16A1?Oliveira 22:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I assume it's about 800 rounds a minute Excalibur01 08:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- That would be correct, it's around 750 to 800 RPM. Spartan198 15:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
What is this?
It's not really from a movie, but a music video, and I havn't been able to figure out what this AR is yet, there are two others in the video, one's an M16A1, the other an A2, but I just can't figure this one out.
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle1.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle2.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle3.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle4.JPG http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle5.JPG
Looks like an M733, what is this from? Excalibur01 08:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- The gun in the first 'cap looks different from the CAR-15s in the other pictures. Maybe it's a fake XM177?-Oliveira 12:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's from the music video for Hero Of War by Rise Against, the main soldier uses it, his two buddies use an M16A1 and M16A2, I'm almost 100% sure there are only three rifles in the video. Yeah, I'm thinking M733 too... Alex T Snow
XM607 Commando Carbine
I do remember the weapon from Pink Caddilac an XM607, or an AR-15 modified to imitate one. The weapon may not have been officially adopted but kits were released to the public though:
Cutaway 18:54PM, 3/7/2009 (UTC)
- I changed the entry after I watched the trailer for the movie. The trailer is on YouTube, and the gun in question is visible at the 00:27-00:28 mark:
- That is definitely an older-model LaFrance Specialties M16K. It doesn't have the triangular front sight post of the XM607. -MT2008 18:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
The Photoshopped M16 images
Can people please stop posting the images of M16 variants that were edited using MPM's photos? There's a reason I've removed them before. We don't need to have every variant on the page, and many of them are inaccurate, anyway. The only one we allow is the XM16E1, because we don't have a good photo of one of those yet, and even that may get replaced. -MT2008
- The Colt 607 image I posted wasn't one of MPM's [unless someone stole it and re-hosted it], I got it from google. Only put it here because the page for the The World Is Not Enough videogame didn't have a 607 image. Vangelis 05:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Why do we have Colt Model 727 by itself
When the Model 727 is just the commercial Colt name for the M4 carbine? it doesn't make sense to have the exact GUN made by Colt with it's commercial name (for law enforcement sales or international sales) with a separate category, when it should just be merged in with the M4/M4A1 category. The M16 page is getting out of control. MPM2008
- I agree that the Model 727 should be merged with the M4 category, but it's not exactly a commercial name for an M4. The Model 777 is the commercial name for the very first M4 (the one that didn't have the detachable carry handle). The 727 and 777 are identical, but the 727 is safe-semi-auto and the 777 is safe-semi-burst. -MT2008
- Good point. But in the overall view, I think all that info (a) should be in the M4 category, (b) should be a footnote, NOT a separate category and (c) people are endlessly creating separate categories for weapons that are essentially the same guns as other categories. Experienced IMFDB users/Mods already know that most of the M16 variants seen in films are build ups of other guns. We usually just get the accessories and barreled uppers and put them on our full auto or semi auto lowers. Why spend thousands to get new guns when we're sitting on dozens and dozens of other M16s? Also, in VideoGames and Anime, again, they don't have to specify the new or commercial model unless it's specifically stated or named explicitly. Even then it can be a footnote in the original category.
Adding images
I'm getting a little annoyed with people adding images we don't need on the page, including many that are crap and which aren't necessary. Not to mention that half of them aren't even using the "br clear=all" command to ensure that the images won't drift into the next gun entry. So, I'm putting a stop to this now. No more without talking about it here first. Next person who doesn't respect my wishes gets a 1-week time out. -MT2008 17:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
- They're still doing it. I have removed the custom A1 upper mounted on an SP1 lower with A2 handguards from this page several times. It is not a common real like frankengun (but it has happened). I originally built this and photographed it for the HEAT page until better screenshots proved that Wes Studi's AR15 was an A1 style lower, not an SP1. MoviePropMaster2008 21:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more, for some reason, these users seem to think that every single picture of a gun needs to be on it's page. It especially frustrates me when they're sticking all customized guns that only appear in one movie onto a page, they may look cool, but they're not even standard configurations! All they end up doing is turning the gun page into a cluttered, sloppy mess of pictures, I mean just look at the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 pages.--Alienqueen11 22:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Would it be alright if I added the following image to the M4/M4A1 with M203 Grenade Launcher section?
Figured that since the other sections on the page have pics of the 'basic' and 'tricked-out' versions, why not this one? Orca1 9904 21:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have any pictures of a heavily modified M4 style platform? ex- The Unit, BlackHawk Down, Tears of the Sun? Dirtdiver6421 17:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
A Warm Thank-You
For years I have been trying to find out what the guns were Peter & Roger used in Dawn of the Dead. This site solved what the problem so many other "gun experts" on IMDb could not. Again, thank you.
- Thats what IMFDB is for =) --AdAstra2009 18:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Let's See If You Can Figure This Out
I couldn't find a real picture so I put this together. Its an M4A1 with the old style stock, and a straight (no cuts) 16" barrel; or its a Sporter (or one of those older three number ones like that) with a removable carry handle; take your pick. I was just wondering what it actually is...
P.S. Every detail is intentional and exactly how its supposed to be even though its not a real picture, just so everyone knows that. ;)
- It would be a hybrid commercial AR variant. It has an M16A1 style lower receiver, so it is NOT a Sporter I or II. Basically, it's an M4 Carbine with a flat top and detachable carry handle, with an old style buttstock and a civilian HBAR Carbine barrel outfitted with RIS forearms. Various manufacturers made similar guns to this design, like Bushmaster and a few others. Also many builders of AR15s made similar guns from parts kits from M&A, Patriot Arms, (the now defunct Nesard), Sun Valley, and others. With the advent of custom builds from aftermarket parts from dozens of manufacturers, the AR15 has become the ultimate "mutt". I can tell you this is NOT an issued military variant, so it would NOT have an "M" designation unless it was built from an M4 to begin with. Also nearly everyone uses the step down M4 style barrels for carbines, unless it's the ultra light. The HBAR Carbine style barrels are becoming rarer by the day since their heyday was the 1990s. MoviePropMaster2008 07:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot, very informative answer. This is the "M4 Carbine" in Call Of Duty 4, and I've been trying to figure out exactly what it really is for a while. I didnt say where it was from because I figured the answer I'd get would be something like "its a videogame, so its probably not a real model", but I knew that ;) I like the look and have been trying to make it as an airsoft project, this helps a lot... too bad airsoft HBAR barrels are very hard to come by. Alex T Snow 07:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- How did you make that? At first I thought it was Pimp My Gun, but PMG doesn't have an M16A1 pistol grip yet. Spartan198 14:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- No, you thought right my friend, it is Pimp My Gun, I just used MS Paint to remove the little finger nub and made the HBAR barrel by copying and pasting the largest part of the barrel over the rest of it. That's all the "photoshopping" that I did. Alex T Snow 07:45, 13
February 2010 (UTC)
- If it's from CoD4, then blame lack of details on modelers that made that gun model. They simply saved some poligons for improved performance of the game. Same thing with lack of gas-block when front sight is removed. It supposed to be M4A1 and i'm 100% sure they had pictures of military issued M4A1's as a reference.
- I'm sure they wanted it to be an M4A1, but I've seen a lot of movies where HK94s were converted to be MP5s, or 92FSs were converted to be 93Rs and last I checked on this site we identify guns on what they are, not what they're supposed to be... Alex T Snow 00:03, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- If it's from CoD4, then blame lack of details on modelers that made that gun model. They simply saved some poligons for improved performance of the game. Same thing with lack of gas-block when front sight is removed. It supposed to be M4A1 and i'm 100% sure they had pictures of military issued M4A1's as a reference.
M16A1 series' portray
In the present, does anyone think that like the Ak47 and its variants, the M16A1 series is sometimes stereotypically portrayed as a bad guy's gun? I've seen the IRA, FARC guerillas, Mexican drug lords and some gangbangers use them. Overall is this true?
- In the real world, the USSR dumped millions of AKs into the hands of satellite states and insurgents around the world. In the Vietnam and immediate post Vietnam years the U.S. dumped millions of M16A1s to our allies. With the fall of Vietnam, all of the South Vietnamese M16A1s ended up in the hands of communist guerillas (as well as the AK). The AK and the M16 were the most prolifically distributed weapons of the last 50 years. There is no conspiracy to make them 'look bad'. They're in the hands of everyone so it is invevitable.
- Even Iran uses a variant of the M16A1, a copy of the Norinco CQ called the S-5.56, as their standard rifle. Spartan198 15:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
AR Series firing 5.7 Ammo???
I was in a gun shop in Michigan today and saw a weapon with an AR-15 type body but with the mag of a P-90 running along the rail. I asked the guy at the shop and he did confirm the weapon did fire the 5.7 round. Anyone have any idea who makes the weapon and what it may be called? Incidentally the store was The Firing Line in Westland Michigan. --Charon68 03:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- They sell those uppers here in California all the time. My local gun store has 5.7mm firing AR15 uppers that take the P90 magazine. But I never bothered to check who made it, that's what GOOGLE is for. I just never had an interest MoviePropMaster2008 07:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have seen examples of this conversion as well. It is actually a specially-made upper receiver that can be mounted onto pretty much any AR-15 style lower receiver. The magazine mounts along the top of the weapon as with the P90, and the original magazine well in the lower receiver becomes the ejection port with the spent brass falling down through there instead of being spit out to the side. As for the manufacturer, I can't quite recall who makes it, but it is definitely quite an interesting piece of hardware. Orca1 9904 07:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
As long as my memory goes, is called the AR-57 and is manufactured by 57Center, or something like that --Yocapo32 15:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I remember when Impact Guns got those in. You can buy them here: http://www.impactguns.com/store/AR-57%20UR.html
- The manufacturer's web site, as Yocapo32 pointed out, is 57 Center. Their web site is here: http://www.57center.com/
- What's interesting is that the AR magazine well is where the brass gets ejected. The only problem I can see with having a P90 magazine mounted on top is that it leaves limited rail space on top for mounting accessories. You could have a scope or iron sights, and not much else. -MT2008 15:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the info guys, again, I know this was not germane to the topic, it was just a little odd to see something like that as I had never heard of it before. --Charon68 16:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Stolen M4A1s
In real life is there ever any incidents where police have seized M4A1 carbines from criminials or terrorists during raids?
- Do you mean mil-spec M4s, as opposed to semi-auto AR-15 carbines that are patterned after the M4? I would doubt it. -MT2008 21:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Never, or else it has never been reported anywhere, ever. And I am talking about real select fire 14.5" barreled M4/M4A1 carbines. However, California has had a rash of MP5s and MP5Ks stolen out of police cars, which were left unlocked when the cops were in a strip club. Seriously. they have not shown up since....MoviePropMaster2008 06:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Suitable combat weapon
Which weapon is considered better for infantry? An M16A1/M203 combo or an OICW?
- M16A1/M203. The XM29 weighs damn near 20 lbs., compared to 8 or 9 lbs. for the M16 when fitted with a 203. Fire control system or not, the last thing I'd want to be stuck with on a 60 mile march is an F-ing 20 lbs. rifle. And sign your posts by typing four ~ after them. Spartan198 23:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- The M16/M203 combo is definitely superior; it has been proven in real-world combat situations over the last 30-plus years, whereas the only live-fire situation the XM29 has seen at the most is at the Aberdeen testing ranges. The closest replacement the M16/M203 will likely see anytime soon is an FN SCAR/M320, and even then the SCAR is only in limited use with the 75th Ranger Regiment at present. Orca1 9904 05:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
The real question is whether or not the XM8 Carbine is better than the M4A1/derivatives (H&K 416, REC7, etc). And we probably won't ever know.
Also, the OICW was more of a man-portable version of a Doom gun than anything that you would actually bother carrying on duty. 20mm airburst auto-loader, saboted sub-5.56mm rounds? What could you use that for other than trying to clear a drug cartel's fortified mansion by yourself?
- One of the many things that led to the death of the XM29 was its sheer size. The Army wanted it scaled down to the size of an M4 [1] and 14 lbs max (which an M4 with all its mods gets pretty close to), but with today's technology, it just wasn't possible. Maybe in 20 years or so it will be, but the XM29 is presently dead for the foreseeable future. Spartan198 17:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
![[1]](http://www.ghostrecon.net/images_arms/xm29_1.jpg){kind=link}
Installation of a front Flip up/down Iron sights.
I was watching The Losers, and while I agree that those 4 characters all had M4A1s, they seemed to switch between fixed front sight and flip up/down iron sights. I was wondering how hard it would be to take an M4A1, remove the front factory sight and replace it with a flip up/down sight. I know it's pretty easy for the rear sight, but I wasn't sure about the front sight. (OK, I also want to ask this question because I, like many people, have played Modern Warfare 2 and seen the M4 with a flip up/down front sight.) --Gunkatas 03:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not really that difficult. Spartan198 04:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- I believe the process would involve removing the muzzle brake and the existing front sight/gas block assembly and replacing it with a gas block that has either a rail to mount your choice of front sight, or a folding front sight, then reinstalling the muzzle brake. You can find instructional videos for this process at various gunsmithing websites. Orca1 9904 14:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Forward Assist
Does anyone know when reloading if it is a good idea to hit the forward assist after hitting the bolt release or its ok just to start firing after hitting the bolt release?
- The idea behind hitting the forward assist after reloading is to ensure the bolt is fully seated and that the weapon is ready to fire. It's generally not really nessicary at the range, but when in a combat situation where you might have dirt or whatnot fouling the chamber, it's a good idea to do that to ensure that the weapon will fire when you need it to.Orca1 9904 23:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The comment about the SPR Mk 12 shooting full auto...
The design--at least the original ones--used a match grade trigger group that actually fired full auto.
If my Web Fu is correct, NSN 1005-01-562-0901 from Knight's Armament.
The original, intended purpose was to allow the uppers to be swapped out for a short barreled model initially so a marksman could use a short range weapon on the way in and out and the more accurate upper at the objective.
Sources: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=003aa7475e95c9b56d5814227cc5d4ec&tab=core&_cview=0
States the Special Purpose Receiver (Early designs) specifies:
"(C) OTHER PERFORMANCE GOALS: (1) Increased reliability, durability, corrosion resistance, ease of cleaning, lubricity/reduced friction; fully functional for a minimum of 15,000 rounds (Threshold)/30,000 rounds (Objective), performing up to the standards and firing rates to be published in the Solicitation, functional reliability exceeding that of the standard M4A1 carbine at high and low temperature extremes as well as other hostile (sand/dust/dirt/mud/surf) environmental conditions (2) Improved safety- delay cook-off, fail-safe features, fires/functions safely and without delay of draining in the Over-The-Beach (surf zone, weapon flooded with water) environment. (3) User Acceptance: operational suitability, increased live-fire hit scores, decreased live-fire engagement times, speed/accuracy of engagement, controllability in semi-automatic and full automatic fire, improved handling qualities, light weight, snag free in movement through vegetation and battlefield obstacles." (Accent added)"
Standard Issue M4 vs. M4A1
Does the Army issue regular infantry (i.e. 4th Inf. Div.) the three-round burst M4 or the M4A1? I always thought it was the M4A1 (and please forgive me if I got to the party late), but from what I've read, it seems like they issue the regulars the Model 920, leaving the 921 for Special Forces and the like. -
i think it all depends on the on-base armory. for example some armory's might still have some M4s. but i think the regular infantry does use the M4A1. however. Special forces dont use the M4A1 or the M4. they use the hK416/417. Dirtdiver6421 17:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- - Though I don't know for certain, I wouldn't imply Spec-Ops units use only the new HK rifles - As you've said, it all depends on what's around, and to a degree what the soldiers prefer (in the case of Special units). Though the aforementioned HK rifles are in inventory, that doesn't automatically cancel the M4s out - some personnel might still use 'em. Plus there are other weapons around, namely the FN SCAR series. Though I would agree use of the M4 with Special Forces probably isn't as common these days.
As for a regular-issue weapon, I agree that the M4 and M4A1 are both in use nowadays, with the A1 perhaps being more prominent. StanTheMan 19:40, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, Stan, my understanding is that it's the opposite. The M4 is the most common version, not the M4A1. U.S. military doctrine still discourages full-auto for infantry rifles, so it seems unlikely to me that the M4A1 is going to be more common. As for the SCAR, SOCOM just decided this past June that they weren't going to order any more SCAR-Ls for the foreseeable future, which means that even amongst most SF units, the M4 will remain their standard weapon. -MT2008 01:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- - Well, I wasn't too sure, but I guess that does make sense to stick with the burst-fire M4. Good point. StanTheMan 01:51, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The only SF unit that uses the M4 (920) that I can think of is the Asymmetric Warfare Group, but that's only 'cause they had to hand in their HK416s. According to a book I've got, that decision went over like a lead balloon with the AWG. -
thank god. im not a huge fan of the SCAR-L i find it pointless. if you want to go with a new alternative to the M4/M16. why the hell would you take an unfamiliar weapon. alas the hK416. same rate of fire. same Picatanny rail, same attachments, same stock, same barrel, same trigger group, and extremely similiar internals. and Stan, i do agree. if i made it sounds like all SF use the hK416, i didnt mean to. i/we really DONT no what they all use. they pick their own. they could carry an AK-47 or a CAR-15 if they wanted to. we cant make generalizations about units that get custom made equipment. Dirtdiver6421 20:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)