Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes: Difference between revisions
Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes: Difference between revisions - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games
Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes: Difference between revisions
::I'm wondering, given Kojima's political leanings and well-known tendency towards nonsense, if he didn't buy into that whole "oh no gun companies are using games to sell guns" thing that was actually about EA trying to get away with using Bell's intellectual property without paying for it, so made all the guns fake in pointless protest. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 06:32, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
::I'm wondering, given Kojima's political leanings and well-known tendency towards nonsense, if he didn't buy into that whole "oh no gun companies are using games to sell guns" thing that was actually about EA trying to get away with using Bell's intellectual property without paying for it, so made all the guns fake in pointless protest. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 06:32, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
== URGAN-5 ==
== URAGAN-5 ==
Wasn't there an experimental Soviet revolver that fired from the bottom chamber? I can't remember what it looked like but I'm fairly sure that it fired shotgun shells, I believe it was designed for the Cosmonauts but lost out to the TP-82 --[[User:ILY22UK|ILY22UK]] ([[User talk:ILY22UK|talk]]) 17:34, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
Wasn't there an experimental Soviet revolver that fired from the bottom chamber? I can't remember what it looked like but I'm fairly sure that it fired shotgun shells, I believe it was designed for the Cosmonauts but lost out to the TP-82 --[[User:ILY22UK|ILY22UK]] ([[User talk:ILY22UK|talk]]) 17:34, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
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Found the possible inspiration for URGAN-5: '''RSh-12 12.7mm Assault Revolver'''
Found the possible inspiration for URAGAN-5: '''RSh-12 12.7mm Assault Revolver'''
:You're actually thinking of the [[Mateba Autorevolver]]. It looks to basically be a Mateba cylinder and barrel stuck on the front of a No 4 Mk 1 flaregun. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 06:33, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
:You're actually thinking of the [[Mateba Autorevolver]]. It looks to basically be a Mateba cylinder and barrel stuck on the front of a No 4 Mk 1 flaregun. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 06:33, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
::Hmm... You're somewhat right about the W&S No. 4 Mk. I part. Though, the MGSV weapon in question is implied to be of Russian origin. It's full in-game name is the BTS Instrument Design Bureau Uragan-5 Pistol. The name of "in-universe weapons manufacturer" sounds quite similar to Russian weapon manufacturers like - for instance- TsNIITochMash (Central Research Institute for Precision Machine Building.) Also 'Uragan' is a Russian word, meaning "Hurricane" in English. [[User:TrickShotFinn|TrickShotFinn]] ([[User talk:TrickShotFinn|talk]]) 10:31, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
==Jeep mounted MG==
==Jeep mounted MG==
It kinda looks likes a 1919 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] ([[User talk:Excalibur01|talk]]) 10:06, 15 April 2014 (EDT)
It kinda looks likes a 1919 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] ([[User talk:Excalibur01|talk]]) 10:06, 15 April 2014 (EDT)
Not sure it is a Steyr. Ejection port is different and no top bolt. Might one of the PP or PM series.Temp89 12:25, 4 September 2012 (CDT)
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, about how it doesn't look like a Steyr, but I don't really see the PP or PM series in that SMG. --SmithandWesson36 12:39, 4 September 2012 (CDT)
I glanced around and the best match I could find would be a Ruger MP9 with most of the grip removed and a Skorpion-style stock added. Evil Tim 13:02, 4 September 2012 (CDT)
Comparing recent Gametrailers' pop up trailer and looking online, it does look more like a Steyr MPi 69 Excalibur01 (talk) 15:46, 7 September 2012 (EDT)
Yeah, but in the shots we have the ribs on the side and the ejection port aren't right for the Steyr at all. I bet it's some ridiculously obscure subgun prototype or something. Evil Tim (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
My guess is they are going for made up hybrids this time. With the rifle for example there is actually nothing on there that matches a real FNC, think it just got ID'd as that as it has a folding stock and is sort of the same general shape. If you look closely at the lower receiver it actually appears to be a bastardised malformed AR-15 lower. --commando552 (talk) 04:34, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
I dunno, this is still supposed to be MSF as far as I'm aware, so it's in the past; could be a case of MSF having to go to fictional stuff after having invented every weapon and thing ever in the last game, I suppose. And actually I think that's the FAL model from Peace Walker with a 5.56mm STANAG stuck in it. Evil Tim (talk) 05:07, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
So far, none of the MGS games have resorted to fictional firearms aside from the ray guns and rail guns Excalibur01 (talk) 12:02, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
Thinking about it, is it possible it's some cheapy Airsoft FAL which is built around guts designed to go in an AR-15 platform and so needs to use a 5.56mm mag and have a front pivot? Evil Tim (talk) 06:35, 9 September 2012 (EDT)
That idea does seem like a stretch. I have never seen an "cheap" Airsoft FAL that is built to look like an AR and I've seen a lot of weird Airsoft when I was into it. Keep in mind, this is still a demo and they could still fix it to look more like an FNC, which is what I think they are trying for. And are we dead set on what the SMG really is without considering the MPi? Excalibur01 (talk) 11:42, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
I still think the AR is just a random hybrid gun rather than it being physically based on anything. It is kind of like they cobbled together random bits of models to make a gun in the shape of an FNC, so could be a place holder. As for the SMG, it appears to me to be mostly based on a malformed Uzi with a Skorpion style top folding stock added and a few parts omitted or changed. On first glance I know it doesn't really look like one but hear me out. First off are the sights, with the front and rear sights both having semi circular wings. Then there is the fact that it has the slot in the top of the receiver for the top mounted charging handle although the handle itself is absent and the top of the model has been flattened rather than keeping the humped Uzi receiver. The two short ribs at the rear of the receiver match the Uzi. Also above the pistol grip is a horizontal rectangular indent which is another telling Uzi feature. Finally in the last screenshot you can see that behind the pistol grip the receiver narrows like on the Uzi. I will admit that the final product doesn't look much like an Uzi what with it having a Skorpion folding wire stock and lacking the distinctive Uzi muzzle and handguards, but to me it appears that the "raw material" they were working from to make this gun was an Uzi. --commando552 (talk) 12:04, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
Yeah, I thought Uzi as my second option, that indent is way closer to Uzi than the longer one on the MP9. As for the rifle...Tilting my head, it looks almost like it's supposed to be the missing (or rather nonexistent) link between the FAL and the SCAR. Evil Tim (talk) 13:06, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
Grabbed a couple extra shots. Not really helpful in getting an ID, but it's something. --Lynx (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2012 (EDT)
This Photo had been included in "Metal Gear Solid 5 Fox Engine Tech Demo". Do you know a gun similar to this? This SMG make USSR? -- KINKI'boy (talk) 17:31, 25 April 2013 (JST)
Just realized. That's not a photo. That's a render. It's all CG.-protoAuthor 20:54, 25 April 2013 (EDT)
FOX Engine is amazing. I watched through the nearly one and a half hour presentation in one sitting. As far as the submachine gun is concerned it combines from the design elements of both a western, designed by Uziel Gal, MP9 and the Czechoslovakian Vz. 61, designed on the other side of the iron curtain by Miroslav Ribar. It's hard to determen it's origin, especially since it was made up by Kojima Production, but it was used by what were apparently US (or at least international) operatives in the trailers. --BeloglaviSup
The SMG looks the Uzi's predecessor, the vz.23 and it's variants. --ILY22UK (talk) 12:01, 18 May 2014 (EDT)
Which became the base Sz.-336 was real? This gun is RG-063 Baksan made by USSR. Design is similar. One of the gun that this was based? -- KINKI'boy (talk) 20:11, 7 July 2014 (JST)
Am I the only one who thinks this SMG looks more like the "Kommando-LDP" (The South African variation on the SA.23) and not so much the other ones listed?!? -- RedRobinAlpha (talk) 14:10, 16 August 2014 (GMT)
I agree with ILY22UK and RedRobinAlpha. The Sz.-336 SMG (Sodomka zbrojovka Type 336 Submachine Gun) is inspired by Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod’s Sa Vz.23/CZ Model 25 and telescoping bolt sub-machine gun designs that it spawned. It's general shape is quite close to Cobra Mk.1 Pistol Carbine and also has elements from Kommando-LDP, Vz. 61 Skorpion, Bulawayo Armoury “Rhogun” and IMI Uzi (safety/fire-select on grip – Uzi is inspired by ZK 476 prototype and Sa.23-26 FYI). A firearm that's heavily inspired by Sa.23 is appropriate, since at least one arc of MGSV takes place in Southern African continent where Sa.23-likes were heavily utilized in it's wars. In-general, the weapon is a functional stand-in for MGS4 & MGS:PW's Vz.61/82 Skorpion – easily wielded but weak small-caliber SMG that can be fitted with a suppressor. TrickShotFinn (talk) 03:45, 18 August 2014 (EDT)
It does actually bear quite a good resemblance to the HAC-7C (assuming it would be the carbine version as the suppressor goes all the way back to the front sight) but there are some differences. Firstly it is the wrong caliber, the HAC-7 is a .308 feeding from AR-10 magazines rather than this which has a regular 30 round .223 mag. The stock is also wrong being of a more conventional FAL type, and the gun has an AR-15 pistol grip as opposed to the FAL type on the HAC-7. This gun is close enough that it might be what they were going for, but not a single part is actually a match for the real gun, it is just the same general shape and layout. Part of this might be the fact that the gun is so rare that they could not find much reference material for it, but not sure that is really an excuse as after 5 minuted on google I was able to find pictured good enough to show that there model is wrong. Again, could just be a place-holder model though. Regardless,if it turns out that it is a HAC-7 of some sort this is a totally bizarre choice, using a gun that only about 300 were made which was never designed or trialled for military use, it is just one of those random rare civillian guns made by a Texas gunsmith. --commando552 (talk) 03:53, 13 September 2012 (EDT)
While the gun seems to be a combination of parts from different weapons, wouldn't the FAL style receiver and 5.56 mm magazine indicate that it's (at least somewhat) based on the IMBEL MD-97? --Lynx (talk) 23:49, 13 September 2012 (EDT)
The IMBEL MD-97 wouldn't be that impossible looks pretty much like the screenshot, was made for the Brazilian Army, and its special forces and chambered for 5.56x45mm NATO. However it was not made until 1997 but it wouldn't be the first time anachronisms appeared in MGS unless you meant the earlier (but still anachronistic) IMBEL MD.Mr.Ice (talk) 16:28, 19 September 2012 (EDT)
The annoying thing about this gun is it looks "pretty much" like quite a few things, but exactly like nothing. If you look at any part and compare it to the MD-97 it is different, with the exception of the magazine itself, and possibly the stock if you were feeling generous. I'm sticking with hybrid, possibly standing in for something else. --commando552 (talk) 17:20, 19 September 2012 (EDT)
Im not sure when this happen but someone said it was a St.Kinetics SR-88 and put it on the main page but I changed it back to Commando's description.
KALANTAK seemed like a good match at first glance, yet there are still quite a lot of things that make it an unlikely candidate. Besides the obvious differences in the hand guard shape of the back sights, pistol grip and the trigger guard, the lower receiver is more akin to an AR clone. The other important factor why it's doubtful it represents KALANTAK or any INSAS derivative is that the base rifle only came into adoption during the vary latest of nineties, while the events of MGSV take place in the mid-80s. Just like with the submachine gun above, I have a premonition we'll be seeing a few similarly fictive, but appropriately plausible firearms in the retail version. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 08:00, 26 April 2013 (EDT)
My theory is that "Arms Material Rifle Type 69" - as well as the MRS-4 - is mainly based-off 5.56 assault rifles that use Armalite AR-16 as it's design base - Armalite AR-18, SAR-80, SR-88, Howa Type 89, Sterling SAR-87, LD T2 MK5 etc. - as well as sharing slight similarities with 5.56 AR-10 derivatives and other rifle designs inspired by both. The in-game "Arms Material" brand seems to be a fusion of Colt and Armalite, both which are the core innovators of AR-10, AR-15 and AR-18 rifle design. Type 69 is the full-sized assault rifle and MRS-4 (Multi-purpose Rifle System model 4) is the carbine version, that also seems to be an early attempt at “Modular Close Combat Carbine”/proto-SOPMOD weapons system (hey, it's MGS after all!) In-game; AM MRS-4 Rifle and AM Rifle Type 69 probably double for MGS Peace Walker's Colt Model 653 and Colt M16A1 respectively, and in addition the MRS-4 seems to also share similar functionality as MGS4's M4 Custom.
TrickShotFinn (talk) 04:36, 27 July 2014 (EDT)
The handguard resembles Guntec USA type free-floating smooth handguard with Knurled Grip (designed for .223/5.56 AR-15 rifles) TrickShotFinn (talk) 04:16, 31 July 2014 (EDT)
And then in the second update it says he can't confirm anything, while Kojima said that "Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain together make MGSV." which implies that they're both the same game, Boor most likely made an error, and I'd take Kojima's word since he's the one who actually worked on the game whereas Boor is not, so I think the title should be changed. Kornflakes89 (talk) 12:52, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
Maybe we should just wait until something truly solid comes along. This page has already been moved and then moved back within the last 24 hours. --Funkychinaman (talk) 12:55, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
Wait I just screencaped the latest trailer but was it MSG5 or MGSGZ?--Mr.Ice (talk) 14:24, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
Well according to the Wikia of MGS, it states that both are the same game. The two games were believed (mostly by the press) to be separate until they were officially announced to be one during the 2013 Game Developers Conference Excalibur01 (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
Konami seems to disagree, and even Kojima hinted that they were still two separate games (his claim that the opening of TPP was a tutorial session at the beginning, despite claiming in the same twitter post that GZ is a prologue of TPP). Pokeria1 (talk) 21:33, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
He still doesn't specify whether it's one game or two separate games though, as for Konami's PR guy Boor, he didn't seem too sure of what he stated in the updates to the article as I said before and with the recent interview with Kojima not saying much to imply that it's two separate releases, I think it's safe to say it's one game. Kornflakes89 (talk) 04:10, 29 March 2013 (EDT)
Looks like the weapons are all fictional hybrids similar to Resident Evil 6. In the live demo the FNC type rifle was called the MRS-4 and the SAR-80 lookalike the "AM Rifle Type 69" (no, not that Type 69). Bit of a waste. :( Temp89 (talk) 07:24, 19 September 2013 (EDT)
Let's hope when the game actually came out, they'll make the weapons more realistic. It's weird all the guns look so fake because the previous games even the PSP Peacewalker game, the guns were all based on the real models. Excalibur01 (talk) 13:09, 19 September 2013 (EDT)
Yes, especially considering that GZ/TPP takes place directly between PW and the MSX2 games. At least with MGRR's use of fictitious weapons, it was acceptable because it took place well into the future of not only real-life, but in-universe as well. Pokeria1 (talk) 10:13, 24 November 2013 (EST)
Where is the sling?
I've seen this game on the PS4 and I keep wondering...where the hell is the sling that Snake has on his rifle? Seriously, next gen graphics and processing power and they can't render a sling on a rifle?! I also hate how we are limited to 2 types of weapon choices. It's almost like MGS is trying to be like Splinter Cell Excalibur01 (talk) 17:44, 19 March 2014 (EDT)
A freely-hanging sling on a rifle in a video game requires that a lot of stuff be programmed in (more specifically making collision boxes around each sling-equipped-rifle-using character and the gun itself that the sling can't go through, otherwise you could end up with the sling going through the character's body, the gun, or even itself, plus a physics systems to emulate its weight and mass) for very little gain. Gaming budgets are getting pretty tight these days, and so visual features like these are understandably considered low priorities. To get a sense of the difficulties involved, go track down a clip of the Joker from Batman: Arkham City accepting his award during the 2011 VGA ceremonies, and pay attention to the chain just above his left thigh. It suddenly pops into existence only when he stands up, having clipped right through his leg while he was sitting down! And this is from a AAA game title with a very generous budget!--Mazryonh (talk) 19:00, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
The genome soldiers the The twin snakes had 3 point slings included on the FAMAS, but is was only a simple surface that stretched between two points and frequently clipped. its visible in this cutscene http://youtu.be/a01GJ74X_R4?t=2h10m47s --Crimsonsguns (talk) 08:12, 19 August 2014 (EDT)
Apparently it isn't anything. Like all the other guns, this pistol is entirely made up. Excalibur01 (talk) 11:00, 28 March 2014 (EDT)
I agree. Ive looked through all my Jane's gun recognition guides, and it looks like a mix of Browning BDA, Colt 1911, and S&W Model 39. The programmers just took the best bits of all three by the look of it. No bad thing though. I decided to just tag it as its marked in the game.
User:R-110
Lazy designs and anachronisms abound
I am mixed saying they are both creative and lazy at the same time. They took the time to create all these fakey guns but too lazy to use real guns. The game takes place in 1975. I wanna see the FAL, H&K 33, SIG rifles, or bring back the M16 variants.
I also have a problem with how "modern" the gun handling and gear. Guards are wearing helmets too advanced for the time frame and every gun has a flashlight attached before it is common place. Uniforms and rigs of the "spec ops" types and the Motherbase personnel are also too advanced. The helicopter that XOF uses look like Blackhawks. I don't even what to begin with Big Boss's Idroid that displays a hologram. What happened to Metal Gear like it was back in MGS3 when the most anachronistic thing we had to complain about was the M16 had a 3 round burst and the Beta mag in the Patriot? Excalibur01 (talk) 00:29, 29 March 2014 (EDT)
Is it possible that maybe Motosada Mori, his military advisor, advice Hideo Kojima to not using real guns as to avoid future implication on MGSV being one of the source of gun violence in the future? Because having dark and mature theme like revenge as a game theme is already bad enough.
That doesn't sound reasonable. Guns are guns. How does not having real guns take away from the violence and grim themes of the story? Excalibur01 (talk) 10:32, 31 March 2014 (EDT)
Well I just look at it psychologically, because as stated by Kojima in here, this story is about hero became an evil threatening the entire world. Kojima maybe feared that one of the gamer who played this could became bad for real in the future.
I know this is a stretch, maybe a long one. So we have to wait for someone interview Kojima himself as to why this is the first time he made such gun design, as people know that Kojima is perfectionist to detail. Johnny Akiba (talk) 11:50, 31 March 2014 (EDT)
Having fictional guns doesn't change the tone of the story. The GI Joe and Transformers movies all have real guns in them with people dying left and right, yet they're still essentially live-action cartoons. The most obviously reasonable explanation is that the fictional guns are intended to circumvent any copyright claims. And revenge stories aren't strictly "adult" material either, nor are they anything new in video games. It's how you write the story that determines the audience it's suitable for. Spartan198 (talk) 12:32, 25 June 2014 (EDT)
Also if you've seen the trailer, Big Boss pulls a fucking bomb out of Paz's stomach and there was another one in her body as well. Also I don't think the fictional guns are to avoid copy rights. Basically some gun companies are pushing to not have the NAMES of their guns used in games but most of the time, they don't care cause their guns are being advertised for free anyway. That also doesn't explain why the AK is...whatever it is. Excalibur01 (talk) 22:45, 25 June 2014 (EDT)
Maybe because of this news that Kojima decide to enlist professional help from Tokyo Marui. Rather than just follow what some other video game maker do, it's safer to just take some parts from other guns and give it a brand new name. Johnny Akiba (talk) 16:12, 11 July 2014 (EDT)
That make the guns in this game even more confusion. TM is a very high quality Airsoft manufacturer and they have some of the more accurate Airsoft of real guns I have ever seen. None of the in game models use the guns from TM at all. They don't even have an FNC type rifle. Excalibur01 (talk) 23:20, 20 July 2014 (EDT)
I don't get this either, if they wanted to create new fictional weapons I have no idea why they would go to TM as this is not what they do. They create faithful replicas of real weapons, as far as I know they have never made fantasy weapons from scratch so I have no idea why Kojima would think they were the people for the job. Anime or game designers would have much more experience at this sort of thing than an airsoft company, the only reason I could think they would have anything to do with TM is if they wanted TM to produce airsoft replicas of the fictional weapons from this game, but I really cant see that happening. --commando552 (talk) 07:54, 21 July 2014 (EDT)
Can we just talk about how dumb it is to say that the developers are "lazy" for designing their own custom firearms that look like real designs rather than simply copying existing ones? Chitoryu12 (talk) 12:26, 20 July 2014 (EDT)
Lazy as in "they used to create 3D models of firearms very faithful to the real-life versions, but now are mish-mashing designs for no apparent rhyme or reason." Firearm violence in games is firearm violence in games; it doesn't make it any less violent if you use fictional, non-realistic designs. They could use the Pulse Rifles from Aliens in this game and it would still be similarly pointless, if their objective was to make the game somehow "less violent." I still preferred it like MGS3 when they used mostly-historically-appropriate firearms. Things starting getting strange on the "Metal Gear Firearms Front" ever since the release of Peace Walker. Mazryonh (talk) 14:28, 20 July 2014 (EDT)
Laziness doesn't even factor into it! If anything it's "lazier" to just directly copy an existing weapon; some modelers even outright take the textures straight off of photographs of the guns instead of creating their own. Making a custom design from scratch takes more effort and imagination, the absolute antithesis of laziness. Criticize the use of fictional guns all you want, but calling it "lazy" is just plain bizarre. Chitoryu12 (talk) 13:34, 26 July 2014 (EDT)
Not entirely; it used to be an MGS tradition to have realistic-modelled and historically-grounded weaponry. That still takes a level of research. Designing fictional firearms that look at least somewhat realistic is not very difficult. As an example, many anime studios have been doing so for ages, and many of the resultant designs even manage to look aesthetically pleasing. The lazy bit comes from the abandonment of the tradition of including realistic, historically-accurate firearms--to at least some of us, this was a good feature of the series that should not have been discarded. --Mazryonh (talk) 22:50, 14 August 2014 (EDT)
I'm wondering, given Kojima's political leanings and well-known tendency towards nonsense, if he didn't buy into that whole "oh no gun companies are using games to sell guns" thing that was actually about EA trying to get away with using Bell's intellectual property without paying for it, so made all the guns fake in pointless protest. Evil Tim (talk) 06:32, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
URAGAN-5
Wasn't there an experimental Soviet revolver that fired from the bottom chamber? I can't remember what it looked like but I'm fairly sure that it fired shotgun shells, I believe it was designed for the Cosmonauts but lost out to the TP-82 --ILY22UK (talk) 17:34, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
I think you mean revolver TOZ-81 Mars. URGAN-5 other gun.--Sea lion (talk) 06:10, 15 August 2014 (EDT)
Found the possible inspiration for URAGAN-5: RSh-12 12.7mm Assault Revolver
Aesthetically similar and both are big bore weapons. But RSh-12 doesn't fire less-lethal shotgun rounds as far as I know as of this moment.
TrickShotFinn (talk) 05:52, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
You're actually thinking of the Mateba Autorevolver. It looks to basically be a Mateba cylinder and barrel stuck on the front of a No 4 Mk 1 flaregun. Evil Tim (talk) 06:33, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
Hmm... You're somewhat right about the W&S No. 4 Mk. I part. Though, the MGSV weapon in question is implied to be of Russian origin. It's full in-game name is the BTS Instrument Design Bureau Uragan-5 Pistol. The name of "in-universe weapons manufacturer" sounds quite similar to Russian weapon manufacturers like - for instance- TsNIITochMash (Central Research Institute for Precision Machine Building.) Also 'Uragan' is a Russian word, meaning "Hurricane" in English. TrickShotFinn (talk) 10:31, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
Jeep mounted MG
It kinda looks likes a 1919 Excalibur01 (talk) 10:06, 15 April 2014 (EDT)
