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Talk:Neon Genesis Evangelion: Difference between revisions

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I should have been more specific. Shigeru's line would have to be only 5 syllables long to match the lip flap. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 02:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
I should have been more specific. Shigeru's line would have to be only 5 syllables long to match the lip flap. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 02:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
The English dub for ''The End of Evangelion'' has several notorious script mistakes.  You have to remember that anime dubbing is a two step process:  the actual "translator" just makes a literal translation, and often there is no direct translation for a given line.  The translator then hands their work off to an "ADR scriptwriter", who has to adapt this raw translation into English:  commonly, things in another language have no one-for-one translation, like jokes or idioms.  Extremely technical language is often very different, because each language does "technobabble" differently (and even real technical jargon).  Few anime ADR scriptwriters actually know Japanese.  Generally speaking this usually works out:  jokes that cannot translate are replaced by dialogue that fits English better, and many ADR scriptwriters are very creative.  The problem is that the ''End of Eva'' scriptwriters put all their faith in the three translators working for them, and had no way to double-check.  So a lot of mistakes are the translator's fault, not the ADR scriptwriter.  -->case in point, there's an infamous goof where Misato is very quickly explaining the secret backstory of the Angels and Evangelions, but they mix up the dialogue and get it backwards.  Given that this was virtually the ''only'' scene in which the story finally gave a coherent explanation of this, it wrecked that explanation for the English audience.
More to the point for our purposes, however, is the infamous "gun slap" mistake.  Before ''The End of Evangelion'' came out the fans were getting impatient so what they did was release the first third or so of the rough-cut of End of Eva, along with a clip show of the TV series main plot points up to that point, called ''Death and Rebirth".  D&R is an utter waste, literally a clip show.  But they keep re-releasing it as a matched set with ''The End of Evangelion'' because fans are dumb enough to keep buying it (even though there isn't anything new in it, I mean its redundant).  ---->Anyway, the now-infamous "Commentary of Doom", the DVD commentary for ''The End of Evangelion'' by the English adapters, actually stretches across ''Death & Rebirth'' and ''The End of Evangelion'' -- as I said, the second half of D&R is just the first half of End of Eva....even the commentary tracks work this way; they simply started recording during the "clip show" first half of D&R, then at the "Intermission" when the first third of End of Eva started, they shifted to recording for the entire, final version "End of Eva" -- so its a movie-and-a-half long, not two movies long commentary.
Well, enough about logistics:  during the TV series clip show part, there's a point when a character gets shot, off-camera, but the next scene is of Asuka slapping Shinji in the face (also off-camera).  The Japanese audio features an actually realistic-sounding gunshot:  on a microphone, they just sound like a popping noise or clapping.  American TV usually switches this out for unrealistic loud crashing noises to try to simulate the live-effect that gunshots have at close range of overwhelming hearing.  Because of this, the English dub adapters on hearing the gunshot -- and they explain this during the DVD commentary -- said they thought it sounded "like clapping, not a real gunshot"...so they went in and *changed the sound effect* to be a "more realistic gunshot" even though its actually not what guns sound like.
This was one of several times during the movie that they actually *changed the sound effects*....which in English dubbing, is often considered sacrosanct;  they're supposed to change the language, but not sound effects, that's part of the original creator's vision.  The real problem was that they added insult to injury:  it wasn't just that they got things like this wrong, but the commentary track is filled with them pervasively praising themselves for how much research they did.  Then again, given that they had three translators working on it and there were still errors, in some cases they did all they could.  But its just inherently ironic when on the DVD commentary you hear them explaining "look how cool we are, we fixed the gunshot" when they actually don't seem to know what gunshots actually sound like in real life.
Of particular annoyance is...look, I don't like dumping on these people (other than Jaffe, who ranted about his own pet theories on the show) and generally these are minor changes or forgivable (I don't mind that they made a mistake in D&R because its a clip show not worth buying).
The one, I mean literally one thing I have a problem with and want a re-release to fix.....is that they changed the gunshot sound effect when Misato is fighting the JSSDF troops.  At the end of the fight, Misato holds her HK USP under a JSSDF soldier's chin, kills him with a contact shot, and his blood & brains are splattered all across the wall behind him.  The English adapters....felt this was so dark that they '''changed the gunshot sound effect to a watermelon "splat!' sound effect, to be funny'''.  I mean, on the DVD commentary they actually say "we changed this to be funny".  Well, their explanation earlier was that they had watched the movie at least 30 times in development, each time watching characters they really cared about get killed, so they had to develop a sense of gallows humor to keep going.  Fair enough for just jokes on the DVD commentary and around the office....but in the finished version?  Yikes.--[[User:V|V]] 14:25, 13 May 2011 (CDT)

Revision as of 19:25, 13 May 2011

NO EVA GUNS!

I'm sorry, but however those weapons look like to us, they are huge scale versions of real guns. Same with Halo, Team America, none of that here. Excalibur01 03:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

...then unprotect this page, delete the images I uploaded, and let me get back to work on the real gun sections here...--V 03:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

No mention of the Steyr ACR used by the EVAs? Okay, those were giant robot up-sized ACRs, so they probably don't count. What kinda of ammo did they fire anyways? Given the size of the EVAs it must have been something like 75mm!

The Pallet rifles aren't up scaled ACRs, the stock's the wrong shape. The Wierd It 13:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
If you up scaled a gun to that degree some change would be nesesary for the operating system, thus resulting in a slightly different buttstock. They were obviously meant to be ACRs.

EVAs also used Desert Eagle pistols and the British L96A1 sniper rifle.--Zurak 47 22:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The initial version of this article I wrote up included the scaled-up versions of real-life guns the Evangelions use, but the admins forbade it. Apparently policy is that they're still not "real" guns, and shouldn't be here. Check out what I wrote up originally.--V 21:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I did and it should be deleted. We don't need 2 EVA pages Excalibur01

Just a call back to an earlier comment, pages are protected so that you HAVE to register on the site so we know who you are. Excalibur01

I think that Eva guns should be on the page. Despite the fact they are 'make believe' they are still based on real firearms. If you go look in the ghost in the shell page or pretty much any other anime page you find guns that don't exist. Why should they Eva guns not be put up? Because of their size?ShaDow XPS

Yes, solely because of their size. And because I said so. :P Excalibur01 18:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

RPG changed to Panzerfaust

Although it may look like an RPG, it is most defiantly the Panzerfaust. At first this was speculation on my part, but its a fact that JSDF uses this for real.--Tested

What makes you say its a Panzerfaust 3? I mean the one shot we have of them using it is at a bad angle and you can only see it from the back; what distinguishing features confirm its a Panzerfaust 3?--V 21:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

No Spoilers rule being violated here

Guys, removed the excessive explanation of the plot. It violates IMFDB's no Spoilers rule. MoviePropMaster2008 03:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

...how can you *possibly* have a no-spoilers rule at all? Its about the guns, of course its going to be spoilers.--V 18:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I went in and reorganized the page, and removed some of the spoilerific passages and walls of text. Hopefully that will make it a little easier to read.--PistolJunkie 17:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough that there is a spoilers rule in place, but people come for "information" -- there's no such thing as "a wall of text". (sigh)...well, your house, your rules...--V 18:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Gendo's gun a Walther PPK or CZ-75?

I've heard it identified as a CZ-75 before, and it certainly doesn't look like a PPK in the pic (PP/PPK pistols have their recoil spring around the barrel, not underneath, and therefore don't need an underlug).

It's too small to be a CZ 75 Excalibur01 14:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Could be a compact or even a RAMI subcompact. It looks more like a CZ from the front than anything else. Anyone got a side pic?
Here's a pic of my 75B from the same angle for comparison link title
And here's a PPK pic; angle's not exact, but should be close enough link title.
Ok, account created, edit made.Notamisfit 06:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Let me get thsi straight: a CZ-75 has that bulky part underneath the barrel, while a PPK slopes directly back underneath the barrel, and has a wider ring around the front? We could use a better comparison pick with a real life PPK held at the same angle. --V 19:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I looked. Sadly, I don't own a PPK. You're pretty much right on the underlug/lack of underlug though. CZ's and derivatives are relatively rare in that the underlug doesn't possess a full-length guide rod or recoil spring plug. (EDIT: Another thing; in the pic on the main page, the slide is clearly less wide than the frame. That points to internal slide rails, which points to the CZ (or SIG P210, and that's no SIG). Notamisfit 21:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually I have seen several people say they thought it was a SIG Sauer P229. What makes you say its not a SIG? And please use layman's terms, for I am a layman (what does "underlug" mean?). Our problems stem from that we only ever see Gendo pointing the gun directly at the camera, and most gun displays show them from the side. And its not a PPK because those have sloped underlugs?--V 22:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
What I refer to as the "underlug" is the full-length part of the slide underneath the barrel. This is to accomadate the recoil spring. In a locked-breech firearm like the CZ, this is (by tradition, if nothing else) underneath the barrel, hence the "underlug." In a blowback firearm like the PPK, the recoil spring is *around* the barrel, hence no "underlug." As for the SIG, the SIG P210 is a very different weapon from the later SIGS, and the only one to have internal slide rails (The P220 series and later models like the P229 have external slide rails, and hence, a slide that is wider than the frame). EDIT Oh yeah, and the P220/P229 has a full-length guide rod, so there'd be another round thing underneath the barrel if it was one. 72.214.101.161 02:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay, the problem is that the original picture I loaded (in haste) is from the crappy English-dub release of the movie, made by Manga Entertainment (infamously one of the worst DVD transfers ever made, and for such a high-profile project). Going back to the pristine Japanese original version, I've now got a high-quality picture of the same scene loaded up, without all the shadow problems. Now you can clearly see that there is some sort of switch on the side of the gun, near the handle. This may be a vital clue. Is this switch something that the CZ-75 has? Is this a key distinction between a CZ-75 and a SIG P200 series? (Would a SIG have a switch like that?). And to recap: the "underlug" part of a PPK is sloped and would never look that blocky?--V 23:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

That is a much better copy. The "switch" is either the slide release or the safety (EDIT: It's the slide release; the "thumb" part's in the rear). And just looking at the gun (see my photo above) I can say with no doubt that is a CZ-75B (EDIT: slide thinner than the frame; check. flattened top; check. CZ-style front and rear sights; check. The front part of the trigger guard (the serrations) is also consistent with the CZ-75B) . 72.214.101.161 02:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Glock 17 vs CZ-75

This is not a design question but a performance question: what is the functional difference between a CZ-75 and a Glock 17? What's special about the CZ-75, which would make Gendo prefer to use it instead of the standard-issue Glock 17? Ritsuko's revolver is different, but that made a lot of sense: she's not supposed to have a gun, so she would want to use one that is specifically meant to be concealable. Misato uses an HK USP, which is a bigger gun than a simple Glock 17 (and no one thinks its weird, because unlike Ritsuko the scientist, Misato is head of the tactical division and thus *supposed* to have a gun). So what's great about the CZ-75?--V 23:52, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Many of us who own CZ'a as opposed to Glocks consider them to be better weapons ;). Seriously, there's no reason, just like there's no reason for Misato to own a USP instead of a Glock. Many manga and anime include a wide variety of esoteric weaponry for no other reason than to show off. That being said, CZ's are very common pistols outside of the United States (kind of like the Browning Hi-Power), whereas in the US it's mostly 1911 derivatives and Glocks. 72.214.101.161 02:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

What variant of HK USP does Misato use?

The loading shot shows an 18-round magazine (nine visible holes, double stack), suggesting it's a 9mm model. The Wierd It 20:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that Misato fires 10 rounds, and all three main USP variants have a bigger capacity than that. Normally it says right on the side what version it is, but they didn't bother animating that. I..doubt its a .45 ACP because those are apparently slightly bigger. I can see nine holes, yes...what does "double stack" mean? Why does that suggest 9mm? I mean, we don't see her inserting the entire magazine into the gun start to finish, the camera cuts in after she's already inserted the top part into the gun. A .45 has 12 rounds, a .40 has 16 rounds. I'm saying it might be a .40 and the top half of the magazine is just obscured because the top half is already inside of it.

does anyone own one or all of the USP variants, so you can take a picture of the magazine? A key point of contention/piece of evidence is what the magazine looks like from behind, but most online pictures just show already-loaded guns. --V 18:51, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

All right, time to clarify what I meant, since I probably dropped the ball quite badly. There are nine visible holes on the side of the magazine, which show how many rounds are left in it. "Double Stack" is actually me mangling the terminology a bit (the proper term is "staggered column") means that there's two columns of bullets in the magazine, typically staggered so it feeds one at a time. Further more, we only see one side of the magazine, so it should only be dealing with the rounds in the left column. 9 rounds each side x2 = 18. It's also more likely to be a 9mm or a .40 S&W since the .45 was still relatively new at the time the series was made (Introduced May 1995, first episode aired October 10th, 1995). Of course, this is all conjecture, nothing canon pegs the calibre. The Wierd It 21:29, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm therefore unwilling to say with finality exactly which variant it was supposed to be. I guess we'll just leave it as it is. --V 23:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Got a friend who said he use to work at GAINAX and helped with the character design. He said they planned to use a MK23 SOCOM at first to show that Misato is a gun nut. Maybe they just made a fictional .45 USP that "happens" to be real. Or maybe because of the flexibility of NGE(episodes made hastily before airing to suit oppinion or ideas), they gave Misato the "futuristic" USP. This gun appears relatively late, so there is time for editing anyway.--Teslashark

I'm going to have to question the credentials here, just to be sure. The Wierd It 20:38, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Er...I'm sorry, but we need more proof than "I heard it from someone". Further...Misato's HK USP doesn't look "futuristic", it looks entirely normal.--V 23:48, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's just say that Misato got a normal regular USP, but in the future, they make mags for it that is 18 rounds of 9mm. Excalibur01 02:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

  • HALT!! HAMMERZEIT!! 9mm 18-round mags exist as the supplied mags for the USP Match and USP Expert in 9mm. I have a PDF of the USP manual from before 2000 (when H&K was still selling the Match) that clearly says it.--HashiriyaR32 02:28, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, have the 18 round 9mm mags been around for 10 years because this anime was made in 1995? Excalibur01 14:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, that I don't know. I only know that they stopped making the Match in '99, and that the Expert (which came in '98) came after the Match.--HashiriyaR32 18:42, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Weapon in NGE comics?

There are several weapons that only appears in the manga version of NGE but not the anime. OK to put those up? I don't thike we need a second page.- Teslashark.

Nothing from the manga, please. Excalibur01 02:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Probably not...but what weapons were in the manga that weren't in the anime?--V 18:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I can remember a revolver with a laser sight, at least.

What Volume, which character?--!V 23:47, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

In Vol. 8, Stage 55, a revolver with a laser sight is used in an assassination. Despite the laser sight, the character being shot chides the shooter for lousy aim before the killing blow is scored. To say anything about who it was used on or who was using it would be a major SPOILER. --Mazryonh 14:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay I checked that volume and I'm fairly sure it was a Ruger Speed Six revolver, with an attached laser sight. I don't think they let us talk about the manga on here. Further, the manga is a separate continuity and has no real bearing on the show. At any rate, the point was just to confirm to fans that the shooter was just some anonymous security agent sent by either Gendo or Seele; they *never* intended for us to start guessing it was any of the named cast members, it wasn't even supposed to be a mystery. I.e. the director's cuts tried to emphasize this more. So years later when working on the manga, Sadamoto made it a point to actually show the gun that was fired, for the effect of "oh look, its not like the guns that any of the other characters use, its not anyone we knew". --V 00:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Yep, but it's still strange to me that the weapon wasn't a suppressed one given that it was an assassination. And furthermore, the manga was started in 1994, before the TV series. I liked it better than the TV series--it's just too bad the manga won't be finished before the Rebuild movies finish. But maybe we'll see more guns in the Rebuild movies soon. --Mazryonh 17:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

No. The TV series was conceived of in 1993, and Gainax infamously ran into long production delays. From the start, they did want the manga to hit store shelves slightly before the TV series...purely as a promotional tie-in. The entire conception and purpose of making "an Eva manga" was to cross-promote with the TV show, which was their original idea. As it turned out, the manga was out something like a full year ahead of the TV show's premiere episode -- far longer than they planned -- due to the incredible production delays on the TV show. But given that this was 15 years ago, it is increasingly irrelevant. The point is that if we have to categorize them as "a TV show based on a manga comic" or "a spinoff manga comic got made based on the TV show", the Sadamoto Eva manga falls into the "manga based on TV show" category. It came out a bit earlier to try to create buzz for the TV show which was in development already. --V 16:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

"Production delays" were part and parcel of Gainax in those days, so much so that blatant animation-saving measures are quite visible in the original episodes. I daresay that the choice to use G11s in EoE was one minor way they could save animation budget so they wouldn't have to animate shell casings.--Mazryonh 17:25, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Upon closer inspection, it could not be a Ruger Speed Six. The underlug is different. It doesn't help that the back of the gun is obscured. Nonetheless I'm now leaning towards thinking its a Smith & Wesson Model 36 Chief's Special revolver.--V 03:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

What kind of Glocks do they use?

I had thought it was Glock 17's, but I'm not sure about the fine distinctions between the several Glock variants. Remember, the movie was made in 1997 so it could only be Glock models that existed up to that year. --V 23:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

It definitely looks like a full size Glock, but since we never get any clues about the calibre we can't be sure. It could therefore be a 17, 20 or a 22, at the very least. I don't know when the 31 or 21 were introduced. The Wierd It 07:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a thought, for full size service semi-automatics in Japan whether law enforcement or military 9mm Parabellum is the only standard round. PraetorianD 02:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Be in mind, this show took place in the future where the excuse is that they can have whatever they want since Japan is at the forefront of military tech, though in the movie they did mention that their defense budget was lowered gradually for no reason Excalibur01 23:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Why G11 in Other weapons?

The HK G11 was supposed to be a future assault rifle, so why put it in the Other Weapons section? Excalibur01 23:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Fixing the inappropriate dialogue for Glocks

I know that English localizers for anime rarely have enough information about guns, but a little bit of imagination could have fixed the dialogue about Glocks.

For example, Hyuga could have said "I'm ready," instead of "safety off." Both have the same syllable count, and to my knowledge the number of lip-flaps that characters are animated to use dictate the syllables used in English-dubbed lines. Likewise, Shigeru could say "Get with the program!" instead of "Release the safety!" when handing Maya her Glock so as to tell her to stop quaking in fear and help defend the NERV command centre. Does anyone have any other ideas? --Mazryonh 09:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

What about "Get ready to shoot" or "Defend yourself". Or what about, "Your gun is good to go" Excalibur01 17:13, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I should have been more specific. Shigeru's line would have to be only 5 syllables long to match the lip flap. --Mazryonh 02:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

The English dub for The End of Evangelion has several notorious script mistakes. You have to remember that anime dubbing is a two step process: the actual "translator" just makes a literal translation, and often there is no direct translation for a given line. The translator then hands their work off to an "ADR scriptwriter", who has to adapt this raw translation into English: commonly, things in another language have no one-for-one translation, like jokes or idioms. Extremely technical language is often very different, because each language does "technobabble" differently (and even real technical jargon). Few anime ADR scriptwriters actually know Japanese. Generally speaking this usually works out: jokes that cannot translate are replaced by dialogue that fits English better, and many ADR scriptwriters are very creative. The problem is that the End of Eva scriptwriters put all their faith in the three translators working for them, and had no way to double-check. So a lot of mistakes are the translator's fault, not the ADR scriptwriter. -->case in point, there's an infamous goof where Misato is very quickly explaining the secret backstory of the Angels and Evangelions, but they mix up the dialogue and get it backwards. Given that this was virtually the only scene in which the story finally gave a coherent explanation of this, it wrecked that explanation for the English audience.

More to the point for our purposes, however, is the infamous "gun slap" mistake. Before The End of Evangelion came out the fans were getting impatient so what they did was release the first third or so of the rough-cut of End of Eva, along with a clip show of the TV series main plot points up to that point, called Death and Rebirth". D&R is an utter waste, literally a clip show. But they keep re-releasing it as a matched set with The End of Evangelion because fans are dumb enough to keep buying it (even though there isn't anything new in it, I mean its redundant). ---->Anyway, the now-infamous "Commentary of Doom", the DVD commentary for The End of Evangelion by the English adapters, actually stretches across Death & Rebirth and The End of Evangelion -- as I said, the second half of D&R is just the first half of End of Eva....even the commentary tracks work this way; they simply started recording during the "clip show" first half of D&R, then at the "Intermission" when the first third of End of Eva started, they shifted to recording for the entire, final version "End of Eva" -- so its a movie-and-a-half long, not two movies long commentary.

Well, enough about logistics: during the TV series clip show part, there's a point when a character gets shot, off-camera, but the next scene is of Asuka slapping Shinji in the face (also off-camera). The Japanese audio features an actually realistic-sounding gunshot: on a microphone, they just sound like a popping noise or clapping. American TV usually switches this out for unrealistic loud crashing noises to try to simulate the live-effect that gunshots have at close range of overwhelming hearing. Because of this, the English dub adapters on hearing the gunshot -- and they explain this during the DVD commentary -- said they thought it sounded "like clapping, not a real gunshot"...so they went in and *changed the sound effect* to be a "more realistic gunshot" even though its actually not what guns sound like.

This was one of several times during the movie that they actually *changed the sound effects*....which in English dubbing, is often considered sacrosanct; they're supposed to change the language, but not sound effects, that's part of the original creator's vision. The real problem was that they added insult to injury: it wasn't just that they got things like this wrong, but the commentary track is filled with them pervasively praising themselves for how much research they did. Then again, given that they had three translators working on it and there were still errors, in some cases they did all they could. But its just inherently ironic when on the DVD commentary you hear them explaining "look how cool we are, we fixed the gunshot" when they actually don't seem to know what gunshots actually sound like in real life.

Of particular annoyance is...look, I don't like dumping on these people (other than Jaffe, who ranted about his own pet theories on the show) and generally these are minor changes or forgivable (I don't mind that they made a mistake in D&R because its a clip show not worth buying).

The one, I mean literally one thing I have a problem with and want a re-release to fix.....is that they changed the gunshot sound effect when Misato is fighting the JSSDF troops. At the end of the fight, Misato holds her HK USP under a JSSDF soldier's chin, kills him with a contact shot, and his blood & brains are splattered all across the wall behind him. The English adapters....felt this was so dark that they changed the gunshot sound effect to a watermelon "splat!' sound effect, to be funny. I mean, on the DVD commentary they actually say "we changed this to be funny". Well, their explanation earlier was that they had watched the movie at least 30 times in development, each time watching characters they really cared about get killed, so they had to develop a sense of gallows humor to keep going. Fair enough for just jokes on the DVD commentary and around the office....but in the finished version? Yikes.--V 14:25, 13 May 2011 (CDT)

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