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Talk:Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence: Difference between revisions
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:I promise you, this is not some ego trip. There have been many cases where I've been corrected and gladly fixed the error (speaking of which, I keep forgetting the SIG 510 bit brought to my attention below). The problem is that the argument that this must be modeled on a real weapon is faulty, seeing as the franchise makes ''constant'' use of fictional weapons right next to real world weapons. As for it being against the rules to post fictional weapons, that's false. It's against the rules to make pages for works that include nothing but fictional weapons, but in cases such as GitS (where fictional weapons are displayed next to real ones), any weapon that could be perceived as realistic (such as the CZN-22) is displayed and noted as fictional. At this point, though, I am more than happy to settle with your "Fictional Shotgun" description, although I'm still certain that the animators at least had the GONG in mind when animating it.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 00:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC) | :I promise you, this is not some ego trip. There have been many cases where I've been corrected and gladly fixed the error (speaking of which, I keep forgetting the SIG 510 bit brought to my attention below). The problem is that the argument that this must be modeled on a real weapon is faulty, seeing as the franchise makes ''constant'' use of fictional weapons right next to real world weapons. As for it being against the rules to post fictional weapons, that's false. It's against the rules to make pages for works that include nothing but fictional weapons, but in cases such as GitS (where fictional weapons are displayed next to real ones), any weapon that could be perceived as realistic (such as the CZN-22) is displayed and noted as fictional. At this point, though, I am more than happy to settle with your "Fictional Shotgun" description, although I'm still certain that the animators at least had the GONG in mind when animating it.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 00:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
Well to be fair, the original Gong (like many of Shirows designs) is in no way designed like a working gun. There is no place for the bolt to move (maybe it's diagonally downwards like the Kriss Super V, but i doubt Shirow had that idea years before the Kriss was invented). In one Manga chapter Shirow even removes the whole barrel, complete with chamber. | |||
So theoretically, the Innocence gun *could* be an attempt to design a working version. | |||
On the other hand, the Gong was always more of a "multi-purpose gun" in the Manga. | |||
==Battle Rifle== | ==Battle Rifle== | ||
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It's not a Galil. It's close in some ways, but it's not the same firearm. I don't mind saying that it resembles a Galil, but I don't think we should say that it IS a Galil. | It's not a Galil. It's close in some ways, but it's not the same firearm. I don't mind saying that it resembles a Galil, but I don't think we should say that it IS a Galil. | ||
One other thing: Since the charging handle is housed back in the receiver, the tube above the barrel is probably a gas tube, or else it wouldn't have any function at all (The G3 family has a guiding tube for the charging handle above the barrel). This would make it a gas-driven weapon, although the SIG510 is recoil-operated. So the rifle still is a serious kit-bash. | |||
Oh and if we assume it's 7.62x51mm (or another full rifle round), then it's no assault- but a battle rifle. | |||
[[Image:BATOU11.JPG|thumb|none|400px|]] | [[Image:BATOU11.JPG|thumb|none|400px|]] | ||
Revision as of 23:34, 14 October 2010
His shotgun is not a Gong. It's not even close. His rifle is not a Galil, it's not even close. His handgun is not even close to the same size, or finish as a 5904. A 5906, maybe, sure. Though, the trigger guards are very different, and the guns are made out of stainless steel, they are not nickel plated. His "jericho" is also different in the details. An oval ejection port, an entirely angled muzzle end. - J3.
- The rifle is quite obviously based off of a Galil. If you read the article, it goes into quite a bit of detail as to what exactly has been changed on the design.
- The shotgun is a Gong, the aesthetics are simply altered. That tends to happen throughout the various adaptations to Shirows work; the weapons are rarely 100% identical from one title to another.
- As it says on the page, the Jericho he uses is a fictional variant.
--PistolJunkie 12:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The shotgun is either a Valtro, or a Norinco SAS. I could not find a photo of the Norinco SAS in the DB, so I used the Valtro. The Valtro is a pump, and the SAS has the charging handle on the wrong side, but they are much closer than the Gong, which is not a real gun. It's an entirely fictional weapon. -J3
Shot of the Norinco SAS: http://forum.saiga-12.com/uploads/post-2-1105911392.jpg
- If there is a fictional weapon that bears an extremely strong resemblance to it and is part of a common element between this and other Shirow titles, doesn't that make more sense than an obscure real-world weapon that bears no similarity other than the box magazine and uses an entirely different action? Also, use the signature feature, it's the second to last button on the edit bar.--PistolJunkie 17:12, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
You changed it back to the Gong? I understand that you like that design, and that you seem to want it to be the Gong, but it's not. The lack of an exposed hammer alone should show you this. I'm going to quote what's posted there as of Oct 11: "This particular GONG is the more streamlined rendition seen in more recent adaptations of Shirow's work, such as the 2004 Appleseed film." This is incorrect. The Gong used in the 2004 Appleseed looks EXACTLY like the toy kit that is pictured on the Seburo page. Here is the Gong in Applessed 2004.
Saying things like "futuristic variant" and "streamlined" does not make the posting correct. I think it's time you read the rules and principles about the site being a resource for information and not a personal playground. I think it's very important we find the closest real world firearm possible, even if it is obscure. Especially if it is obscure. That's what the site is for. Read the rules and standards.
The shotgun he uses in this has a strong bevel at the rear of the receiver, and does not have an exposed hammer. The receiver is flat, the trigger is a standard modern trigger, as opposed to the oddball trigger on the Gong. The receiver is also horizontal, and doesn't have the angle the Gong has. The charging handle is different, and is in a different location, much lower than the Gong.
I do not view it as a personal playground, and I did not make those changes because I "like the design". I actually hate it. DO NOT try and make this into a personal argument. And while it is not an exact match by any means, it's closer than anything that has been suggested. Until someone can find a semi-automatic, box-magazine fed shotgun with a charging handle on the left side of the receiver, this is the best we've got. Also, sign your posts.--PistolJunkie 20:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm not trying to make this into a personal argument. Siting the principles from the rules page:
This is a source of Information for weapons and movie buffs around the world. Certainly it is tempting to think of IMFDB as one's own personal 'playground' but please realize that we do this work to serve others. It is harsh on one's ego to be corrected or to have one's information proven wrong, but it will always be in the best interests of IMFDB to maintain a high level of scholarly achievement in our analysis and documentation of the two worlds of firearms and film (which includes television and Anime as well as other visual media like Video Games).
I'm trying to make sure this page is up to site regs, and it's against the the rules to post fantasy weapons on a page. The chamber of his shotgun matches two real world firearms very closely, and does not match the gong, but that is beside the point. The point here is the the GONG is not a real gun. It's a fantasy weapon that is not based, in any way shape or form, on a real world weapon.
The page needs to be corrected, and the Gong removed. - --James3 23:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)James3
- I promise you, this is not some ego trip. There have been many cases where I've been corrected and gladly fixed the error (speaking of which, I keep forgetting the SIG 510 bit brought to my attention below). The problem is that the argument that this must be modeled on a real weapon is faulty, seeing as the franchise makes constant use of fictional weapons right next to real world weapons. As for it being against the rules to post fictional weapons, that's false. It's against the rules to make pages for works that include nothing but fictional weapons, but in cases such as GitS (where fictional weapons are displayed next to real ones), any weapon that could be perceived as realistic (such as the CZN-22) is displayed and noted as fictional. At this point, though, I am more than happy to settle with your "Fictional Shotgun" description, although I'm still certain that the animators at least had the GONG in mind when animating it.--PistolJunkie 00:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Well to be fair, the original Gong (like many of Shirows designs) is in no way designed like a working gun. There is no place for the bolt to move (maybe it's diagonally downwards like the Kriss Super V, but i doubt Shirow had that idea years before the Kriss was invented). In one Manga chapter Shirow even removes the whole barrel, complete with chamber.
So theoretically, the Innocence gun *could* be an attempt to design a working version.
On the other hand, the Gong was always more of a "multi-purpose gun" in the Manga.
Battle Rifle
Batou's battlerifle looks more like a heavily modified SIG510. Its no 100% match (i think none of his weapons are), but the beerkeg-type charging handle definately says SIG. Please, just compare the receiver to the images on this page http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Fass57-p1000721.jpg And yes, the 510 has straight magazines too. It gets very clear when Batou reloads and racks the beerkeg-handle. I agree the stock and the basic silhouette look similar to a Galil, but i think a page like this should stick to technical details. While you don't need an expert gunsmith to attach a barrel shroud and a bipod pretty much anywhere you want, you'd need some serious dedication to make a Galil receiver look like a SIG510. But yeah, the magazine is still too inclined.
It's not a Galil. It's close in some ways, but it's not the same firearm. I don't mind saying that it resembles a Galil, but I don't think we should say that it IS a Galil.
One other thing: Since the charging handle is housed back in the receiver, the tube above the barrel is probably a gas tube, or else it wouldn't have any function at all (The G3 family has a guiding tube for the charging handle above the barrel). This would make it a gas-driven weapon, although the SIG510 is recoil-operated. So the rifle still is a serious kit-bash. Oh and if we assume it's 7.62x51mm (or another full rifle round), then it's no assault- but a battle rifle.
Bushmaster
In the Director's commentary it is mentioned that the Yakuza with the "tank driver's headgear" is shooting a Bushmaster. I figure they are talking about the guy in the screenshots here. Can anyone identify the gun model he is using?
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/585/vlcsnap2010050307h15m54.png
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7800/vlcsnap2010050307h16m07.png
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2838/vlcsnap2010050307h16m46.png
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/7053/vlcsnap2010050307h19m18.png
06:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
It's an old Bushmaster Armgun.Rockwolf66 07:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Wow, what a strange gun. http://www.biggerhammer.net/armpistol/ 08:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Mateba Revolver
Togusa's Mateba isn't listed on the page. If nobody has any screenshots, i'll be happy to find my DVD and get some. --FirearmsNewbie 03:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- Huh, You'd think I' have noticed that one... Yeah, that would be great.--PistolJunkie 03:48, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- On that note, should i also get screenshots of the grenades in the movie? --FirearmsNewbie 03:59, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sure.--PistolJunkie 05:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Batou handgun
His gun not a Jericho. It more like Browning BDA-9. And second pistol some compact, i think it Korriphila TP-70. SM 5960 fullsize gun, almost same lenght as Jericho.
- This topic has already been covered; see above. It has the same frame shape and CZ75-style slide-inside-frame setup as a Jericho, albeit with a slightly longer slide and barrel. The BDA-9 does not.
- Keep in mind; Batou is a big guy, a larger handgun is going to look a little smaller in his hands. Plus the Korriphila is about 100mm in length, just a few off from the 5960, so the argument that it looks like a compact is rather silly if you're trying to press the Korriphila.
- Please at least use the spellcheck feature, try to write in decent sentences, and sign your posts. We'll take you more seriously if you do.
If anyone else wants to disagree with the page, please give an actual reason why you think it is something else. Please actually describe which features lead you to believe that.--PistolJunkie 13:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Hand Grenades
Anyone think the Hand Grenades tossed down the stairs are M67's or are supposed resemble them? Or are they a totally different grenade type? --FirearmsNewbie 22:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- They look kinda' like M67s with a more pronounced rim around the middle and a dark green coloring. It looks like the fuse is the unaltered.--PistolJunkie 01:41, 28 September 2010 (UTC)