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Category talk:Battle Rifle: Difference between revisions
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There's also the problem of differentiating Battle Rifles from WWII and earlier from more modern examples, since their characteristics have changed a lot. Wouldn't it be easier to create separate sub-categories for "Pre-Modern Battle Rifles" to denote those used in WWII and earlier, while "Modern Battle Rifle" would be for those used later (such as the G3, FN FAL, etc.). A working definition for a modern battle rifle would be the need for select-fire capability, and chambering in 7.62x51mm NATO or similar full-sized rifle cartridge (a rifle manufactured in modern times using a full-sized rifle cartridge that is semiautomatic-only or bolt action are usually Designated Marksmen or Sniper Rifles). A pre-modern battle rifle would not have this select-fire capability, but would still be chambered in one of the older full-sized rifle cartridges. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:41, 22 July 2011 (CDT) | There's also the problem of differentiating Battle Rifles from WWII and earlier from more modern examples, since their characteristics have changed a lot. Wouldn't it be easier to create separate sub-categories for "Pre-Modern Battle Rifles" to denote those used in WWII and earlier, while "Modern Battle Rifle" would be for those used later (such as the G3, FN FAL, etc.). A working definition for a modern battle rifle would be the need for select-fire capability, and chambering in 7.62x51mm NATO or similar full-sized rifle cartridge (a rifle manufactured in modern times using a full-sized rifle cartridge that is semiautomatic-only or bolt action are usually Designated Marksmen or Sniper Rifles). A pre-modern battle rifle would not have this select-fire capability, but would still be chambered in one of the older full-sized rifle cartridges. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:41, 22 July 2011 (CDT) | ||
: I concur for the most part, and the 'modern' and 'pre-modern' distinctions might be a good idea. As for it being used to denote a country's adoption, I disagree wholeheartedly - Indeed I thought the generally-accepted definition of 'Battle Rifle' were simply rifles (post-smokeless powder or least cartridge rifles) that fired full-sized rifle cartridges (Generally military adopted calibers though), and not shorty or intermediate rifle cartridges, with little to no regard to age, actual military adoption or select-fire capability, though I will contend they mostly consist of semi-auto or select-fire .30 caliber or larger full-length rifles. I like your distinctions, but I must note there are some semiauto rifles that are clearly not sniper/marksmen weapons (Garand and FN 1949 come to mind), and besides, 'Sniper Rifle' can always be added as a subcategory in addition. | : I concur for the most part, and the 'modern' and 'pre-modern' distinctions might be a good idea. As for it being used to denote a country's adoption, I disagree wholeheartedly - Indeed I thought the generally-accepted definition of 'Battle Rifle' were simply rifles (post-smokeless powder or least cartridge rifles) that fired full-sized rifle cartridges (Generally military adopted calibers though), and not shorty or intermediate rifle cartridges, with little to no regard to age, actual military adoption or select-fire capability, though I will contend they mostly consist of semi-auto or select-fire .30 caliber or larger full-length rifles. <br> I like your distinctions, but I must note there are some semiauto rifles that are clearly not sniper/marksmen weapons (Garand and FN 1949 come to mind), and besides, 'Sniper Rifle' can always be added as a subcategory in addition. Anyway, it might be better to denote a 'bolt-action rifle' subcategory for the non self-load rifles (adding it with 'Battle Rifle'), that would take care of the 'older' weapons and sub-categorize numerous other bolt rifles also. As for certain weapons being under this category, most seem alright to me anyway, though I have changed a couple of pages, (The AR-18 is certainly not a battle rifle, or at least it can't be both it and an 'assault rifle'). I haven;t edited any other stuff but that said, I'd ask to exclude things like the Charleville Musket and other muzzle-load firearms as well (Especially at least the Charleville - It can't be called a battle rifle if isn't aren't even a 'rifle' to begin with.) [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:14, 22 July 2011 (CDT) | ||
Revision as of 00:19, 23 July 2011
What role does the cartridge play in this category?
I thought that a battle rifle was defined by not using a pistol or intermediate cartridge. Right now, the most common "full-size rifle" cartridge is 7.62x51mm NATO. In World War 1 and 2, they were the .303 British, the .30-06 for the Americans, the 8x57mm Mauser for the Germans, and the 7.62x54mmR for the Russians. Unless those old rifles for those calibers were made for sniper usage, wouldn't they be battle rifles?
I'm not sure about automatically including rifles that happen to be standard issue for a National Army under the term "Battle Rifle," because that then means it's no different from the term "service weapon." If the term Battle Rifle were dependent on the firearm's caliber, then the term would be more specific and have more meaning. Under this, the M4 Carbine is just the service weapon of the US Army, but is still an assault rifle (or assault carbine) thanks to its cartridge, for instance.
There's also the problem of differentiating Battle Rifles from WWII and earlier from more modern examples, since their characteristics have changed a lot. Wouldn't it be easier to create separate sub-categories for "Pre-Modern Battle Rifles" to denote those used in WWII and earlier, while "Modern Battle Rifle" would be for those used later (such as the G3, FN FAL, etc.). A working definition for a modern battle rifle would be the need for select-fire capability, and chambering in 7.62x51mm NATO or similar full-sized rifle cartridge (a rifle manufactured in modern times using a full-sized rifle cartridge that is semiautomatic-only or bolt action are usually Designated Marksmen or Sniper Rifles). A pre-modern battle rifle would not have this select-fire capability, but would still be chambered in one of the older full-sized rifle cartridges. --Mazryonh 18:41, 22 July 2011 (CDT)
- I concur for the most part, and the 'modern' and 'pre-modern' distinctions might be a good idea. As for it being used to denote a country's adoption, I disagree wholeheartedly - Indeed I thought the generally-accepted definition of 'Battle Rifle' were simply rifles (post-smokeless powder or least cartridge rifles) that fired full-sized rifle cartridges (Generally military adopted calibers though), and not shorty or intermediate rifle cartridges, with little to no regard to age, actual military adoption or select-fire capability, though I will contend they mostly consist of semi-auto or select-fire .30 caliber or larger full-length rifles.
I like your distinctions, but I must note there are some semiauto rifles that are clearly not sniper/marksmen weapons (Garand and FN 1949 come to mind), and besides, 'Sniper Rifle' can always be added as a subcategory in addition. Anyway, it might be better to denote a 'bolt-action rifle' subcategory for the non self-load rifles (adding it with 'Battle Rifle'), that would take care of the 'older' weapons and sub-categorize numerous other bolt rifles also. As for certain weapons being under this category, most seem alright to me anyway, though I have changed a couple of pages, (The AR-18 is certainly not a battle rifle, or at least it can't be both it and an 'assault rifle'). I haven;t edited any other stuff but that said, I'd ask to exclude things like the Charleville Musket and other muzzle-load firearms as well (Especially at least the Charleville - It can't be called a battle rifle if isn't aren't even a 'rifle' to begin with.) StanTheMan 19:14, 22 July 2011 (CDT)