Talk:Heckler & Koch HK416 rifle series: Difference between revisions
Talk:Heckler & Koch HK416 rifle series: Difference between revisions - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games
Talk:Heckler & Koch HK416 rifle series: Difference between revisions
* M4A1 Firearm from which the HK416 was derived. "
As far as i know the 416/417 rifles are based on the M16/AR15 series ONLY in looks and are using similar interiors like the G36
Utter bullshit you are spewing there as even H&K admits publically that the M416 is simply an improved M4A1 carbine. The gas piston system may possibly be adapted from that of a G36 to work on an M4 but that is all. Rockwolf66 19:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
And the gas piston on the G36 was derived from the AR-18. Spartan198 07:17, 3 December 2011 (CST)
The HK 416 WAS meant to be a improved M4A1 from the get go!
They brought on board Larry Vickers a former Delta Force operative to help design the HK416. And it was always intended to be an improved M4A1. --cool-breeze 16:28, 5 July 2011 (CDT)
It should probably be in a movie first...but yeah cool design.--Spades of Columbia 15:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
If it was used in a movie or video game. If not, then no. Spartan198 06:54, 3 December 2011 (CST)
M27 IAR
Are there any differences between the normal HK416 and the M27 IAR, or that's just the U.S. Army name of the gun, like the M1014 is the M4 Super 90's ?? - bozitojugg3rn4ut 03:26, 20 August 2011 (CDT)
I think it's a HK416 with a longer barrel and handguard. Some guys in the U.S. Military (I think the Marines) got the okay from the high-ups or whoever to get these under the guise of new "SAWs" (Squad Automatic Weapons) but the Marines actually use them as assault rifles, lol. I think that's how the story goes, I just remembered it off the top of my head, shows you how much the U.S. Military wants HK416s.
Apparently the weapon was adopted by the Marine Corps as a replacement for the M249 SAW. The main differences are a heavier barrel to handle prolonged automatic firing and a bayonet lug. It is rated for 20 & 30-round STANAG box magazines, but tests are underway on higher-capacity magazines such as the beta-C drum mag. It also has a slower rate of fire; 560 to 640 rounds per minute vs. 700 to 900 rpm with the HK416. Orca1 9904 02:03, 1 October 2011 (CDT)
A supplement for the M249, not a replacement. There's no way in HFIL that a magazine-fed weapon could replace a belt-fed automatic weapon in the suppression fire role. If the Corps wanted to lessen reliance on the SAW, just put FA lowers on M16A4s and M4s and be done with it. Why do you think SOF don't use a SAW? Because all of their weapons are capable of full auto. I don't see why they didn't give this an M1918A3 designation, since it's just BAR 2.0. Maybe they should replace their M16s with M1 Garands and their M4s with M1 carbines, considering this backwards motion that procurement is taking. Spartan198 07:14, 3 December 2011 (CST)
The M27 IAR was meant as a prolonged Automatic Rifle not a Light Machine Gun. - Mr. Wolf 09:51, 4 December 2011 (CST)
In application, there really isn't any difference between the two. Spartan198 15:05, 5 December 2011 (CST)
As an Automatic Rifle it has only 2 inches on the standard HK416's barrel length. Sure, without a belt-feed it can still feed casket- or drum-magazines, but those usually don't net you more than a 100 rounds maximum. And for maximum accuracy wouldn't you need the full 20-inch barrel? Or would they rather use M16A4s for that? --Mazryonh 11:05, 4 December 2011 (CST)
Stock options for the HK Rifle series
All the photos or depictions I've seen for this rifle series depict them with telescoping M4-style buttstocks. Of course it can use a fixed buttstock, but if this rifle is based on the G36 then it stands to reason that it should be able to use the same buttstocks as a G36 can, such as a folding buttstock or just a buttcap. Wouldn't those units issued HK416s/HK417s want the added versatility of a folding buttstock if they're going to be travelling in a vehicle a lot? What about a combination folding/telescoping buttstock seen on the LR-300 rifles? --Mazryonh 05:19, 23 October 2011 (CDT)
Only the bolt and gas system are from the G36, the outside is (mostly) just like a M4A1 Carbine. A G36 stock would not fit on a M4/M16 why would it fit a HK416, I'm surprised you don't see that. :| - Mr. Wolf 16:12, 23 October 2011 (CDT)
In any case, the G36 gas system has no need for a receiver extension (that big cylindrical thing sticking out the back if you remove a standard AR-15's buttstock) that precludes folding buttstocks. I suppose the standard M4 telescoping stock was kept for familiarity's sake, but for those who can afford to train to adapt to the difference, I'm very surprised that HK didn't go all the way and introduce a folding stock for maximum compactness. It's not exactly rocket science to make and attach a folding buttstock securely to a rifle that can take it, and this is why I'm confused as to why I haven't seen one yet for an HK416. --Mazryonh 19:06, 23 October 2011 (CDT)
Well, this is what the U.S. Military wanted. :\ Most other gas-piston ARs still have the buffer-tube too. P.S. I think you meant "buffer-tube" not "receiver extension" - Mr. Wolf 19:49, 23 October 2011 (CDT)
The bolt in an HK416 isn't from the G36, it differs very little from an AR-15 bolt. [1] For that reason, it does require a buffer tube and can't take a folding stock. Spartan198 06:59, 3 December 2011 (CST)
Yes, it seems from this flash animation that the HK416 still (regrettably) uses a buffer tube. I still don't know why they didn't go "whole hog" for the HK416/417 since "compactness, compactness, compactness" seems to be the order of the day, since a folding buttstock makes it even shorter (without sacrificing range or accuracy like shortening a barrel does). And the G36 (according to a newer photo of an additional variant on this wiki) also had a combination buttstock earlier. Was it to make the field-stripping/maintenance process similar enough to the M4 carbine so those used to it could transition without any further training? --Mazryonh 10:57, 4 December 2011 (CST)
Because it's what Delta wanted. The point of the HK416 was to be just an upgraded M4. No more, no less. If Delta want folding stocks, I'd imagine they have a number of G36Cs (and now SCAR-L/H) laying around in their armory to use. It's pretty safe to assume that top tier units like Delta and DEVGRU have access to virtually any weapon they could ever want to use. Spartan198 15:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)
^ I agree ---P226 21:26, 5 December 2011 (CST)
RIS
Can you switch out the stock RIS on this rifle for another AR15 RIS? Are they compatable?---P226 19:29, 6 December 2011 (CST)
The 416's RIS is proprietary, its attachment system is different and it has to sit higher because of the piston. Dover500 20:11, 6 December 2011 (CST)
There is a rail system made by Geissele for the standard AR-15 that fits the 416. --Recon42 11:13, 22 June 2012 (CDT)Recon42
French Army
Interesting article on The Firearm Blog mentions the French Army may have decided on the HK 416 to replace the FAMAS. If it's true that would make the French the second army after the Norwegians to do so. --Charon68 21:14, 15 August 2012 (CDT)
That makes me wonder what was wrong with the FAMAS myself. --Mazryonh 21:33, 15 August 2012 (CDT)
A few things. First I need to clarify that the Army still uses the F1 model, only the Nay adopted the G2, so if nothing else the Army is using a weapon without a STANAG magazine well that has the wrong rifling twist for the NATO SS109 round. Fundamentally though I believe there are problems with the operating system of the FAMAS. It has a lever delayed blowback design which is very rough on the cartridge and kept tearing up regular brass in testing, hence they needed to use specially made steel cased ammunition. So basically the problem is one of compatibility with the rifle hacing to use a different magazine, cartridge case and bullet to other NATO countries. --commando552 03:58, 16 August 2012 (CDT)
This may be a bit of confusion with the fact that French special forces use the 416. The Wierd It 07:34, 16 August 2012 (CDT)
I'm not convinced by that article either, as I'm fairly sure there would have to be an open competition first. Also I vaguely remember reading something that the plant was to start the process of selecting a new standard rifle in 2013, and yet suddenly they have come up with a rifle without a selection process. My guess is that if anything this is going to be the "standard" special forces weapon as currently they use quite an array (off the top of my head they have 416s, FN SCARs, SIG SG550/1/2s and H&K G36s). Further down the line it would make it a top contender to replace the FAMAS, but don't think this is happening yet. --commando552 08:24, 16 August 2012 (CDT)
Yeah but you have to remember this isn't the US where there is prolonged testing, bids and counterbids and calls for an investigation. European defense acquisition standards might be different from the US and, besides, this is for a relatively 'low ticket' item and not a multi-billion dollar platform purchase like the F-35 or a new artillery piece. --Charon68 20:39, 16 August 2012 (CDT)
Still the report just says that the 416 was adopted and not why. There were reports that the French were holding a competition for the replacement of the FAMAS in 2013. In this competition the firearms that were being considered that I know of were the 416, SCAR, G36, F90, and maybe the ARX 160 (can't remember if it was on the list or not); so you would expect to here something about why one weapon was selected over the others. Dover500 21:27, 16 August 2012 (CDT)
Coharie Arms CA-415
Does anyone know if this weapon is actually available yet? The first I heard of the CA-415 was nearly three years ago now, and it doesn't seem to be sold at any online firearms retailers I've seen. However, Coharie has clearly sold some of their CA-415s to The Specialists, Ltd. in New York (which are now showing up in recent episodes of Person of Interest and Burn Notice), so I figure that it must have gone into production. Anyone know the deal? -MT2008 (talk) 12:23, 9 December 2012 (EST)
Not sure, but I think the upper is actually made by Titan Defense, and the assembly and lower is done by Coharie. The old Titan Defense site is gone, and the only one i can find now is an "in construction" one with a copyright date of 2011, so I think TD might have gone out of business. If this is the case, then CA wouldn't have a source for their uppers any more, and hence no more CA-415s. --commando552 (talk) 13:10, 9 December 2012 (EST)
What's the quality comparison between the 415 and the 416? Just curious. Spartan198 (talk) 09:37, 6 March 2014 (EST)
417 Magazine Options
Is it compatible with the magazines of other 7.62mm ARs such as the SR-25 and AR-10? Spartan198 (talk) 01:38, 26 March 2013 (EDT)
Seeing as how the other two are also 7.62x51mm NATO I don't see why not in a pinch. --DeltaOne (talk) 11:29, 26 March 2013 (EDT)
Most of the sources I've seen online indicate that it uses a proprietary magazine. --Funkychinaman (talk) 11:41, 26 March 2013 (EDT)
Wouldn't be the first time HK gave the finger to their customers in an obvious fashion. Not an HK hater by any means, but some of their decisions are baffling. --DeltaOne (talk) 16:22, 26 March 2013 (EDT)
When the 417 was being developed the SR-25 was not being widely used. The AR-10 has never been popular outside the U.S. Originally they were going to use g3 mags, but they couldn't get the bolt to hold open after the last round, so they just designed something new. It is no different than the SCAR 17 using a proprietary mag based off of the FAL mags, but not interchangeable. I do think the mags are overpriced for what they are, but the idea of using someone else's mags for your gun, when there is no industry standard, doesn't really make sense, since you are reliant on someone else continuing to make those mags. Dover500 (talk) 16:44, 26 March 2013 (EDT)
^That is not an M27. Spartan198 (talk) 05:42, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
That thing is weird. I don't think it is even a HK variant, as I think all of them have a parkerized bolt with HK etched on it. Deffinitely not a M27 as it is tan, has no ambi pictograms, wrong stock, wrong pistol grip, wrong rail system and wrong barrel. In particular that barrel is confusing me as it is fluted at the end and if you look through the rear of the handguard venting you can see that it has either some kind of spring or spiral fluting. As to what it is, it looks like a POF P416 variant based on the rail system and shape of the trigger guard built into the lower. Here is another POF gun for comparison:Error creating thumbnail: File missingPatriot Ordnance Factory P416-11 - 5.56x45mmAfter pasting that in I notices that it has the same spiral heat sink or whatever at the base of the barrel, so think it is a match.--commando552 (talk) 09:19, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
Didn't realize that POF were in the IAR competition, but apparently they were and this was their submission. Here is the source of the image on the POF site. --commando552 (talk) 09:22, 30 August 2013 (EDT)
Slanted magwells no longer wrong for 416s
Just a heads up, but HK also makes lower receivers with the same slanted magwell as most other 5.56/.223 ARs [2]. I'm stating this mainly for video games (like Splinter Cell: Blacklist) since it will likely be a while before the 416A5 version starts appearing in movies and TV (if it ever begins appearing, that is). So keep this in mind for the future when other "mystery" ARs come up. Spartan198 (talk) 08:47, 13 September 2013 (EDT)
I can't stand the A5 look! I liked the OG 416 appearance so much better. I'm not fond of the flip-up front sights, I like the front HK style front sight that mounted directly onto the picatinny rails. And now a lot of Hk's rifles have that weird tan furniture, like the G28. I like the black, classic HK416. Luckily, Battlefield 4 has the 416 in a layout I like, especially the sights. I doubt the HK416A5 will be making a lot of appearances any time soon. Hollywood seems to hate guns enough, but not in their movies, and they never pick guns I like. But games are catching on to the vast world of firearms that go beyond M16's and AK's, then the M9 and Desert Eagles for pistols. Love me my HK's. DeadpoolDeadcool (talk) 17:42, 16 October 2013 (EDT)
Wrong guns in the pictures
Just checked the pictures on this page, and compared to my personal HK416 they're all wrong. The stock is wrong, the grip is wrong, the rear sights are standard G3/MP5 sights, not the HK416 ones (check the HK416C or M27IAR) and there is no gas block or gas regulator. So unless we're issued fake 416's in the army, these are photoshopped or airsoft copies.
Just to clarify, I mean the images of a standard HK416, both 10" and 14.5", as well as the D10RS. Ekcyboo 18:31, 13 November 2013 (EST)
I believe they are correct, in particular the D10RS previously came from the HK USA website although it is not currently used there. You need to bear in mind that there has a been a fair amount of change in the HK416 over it's life span, I believe the first two images with the 10" and 14.5" barrel that you believe are wrong are what the HK416 originally came like when it was first introduced, before they changed the pistol grip and started using the type with the E1 convex and E2 concave (think that is the right way round) butt pads. As for the diopter G2 style rear sight, that has been the standard on the HK416 right up until the current A5 generation (HK USA still shows this being used on the variants on its page). These also all have a gas block, it is just under the handguard and can be seen through the front handguard vent. The only gas block that can be seen from the outside is the newer improved one with the tool-less adjustable gas regulator, as used on the A5. What army are you in, as H&K tend to build their weapons differently and give them different furniture and accessories depending on customer requirements so it is very possible that they one you would be issued would be different to the mass produced HK416s that are more typical. --commando552 (talk) 18:54, 13 November 2013 (EST)
It's a norwegian army HK416, manufactured and imported in 2008, with only slight modifications done to the trigger and bayonet lug during 2013. No other modifications as far as I'm aware.
The rear iron sights could have been changed later, but IIRC the norwegian army H&Ks have always had those sights. There is a gap in the handguard to allow for easy operation of the gas regulator (two modes, Supressed and Normal). The pistol grip and stock are exactly like the picture of the 14.5" with an AG-C/GLM. If only I had been allowed to post pictures of the weapon, I'd show you. Ekcyboo 09:27, 15 November 2013 (EST)
I'm fairly sure there are differences between the Norwegian HK416 and the standard one, hence the fact that it has the special designation of HK416N. Regardless, compare our image of the 14.5" barrel one to the current one on the HK USA site and you will see that the only difference is the stock and pistol grip design, which has evolved over time. Our images are of standard, early HK416s as far as I can tell. What do you think is wrong with the gas block on our images? As it is mostly under the handguard with the exception of the front sight pivot and bayonet lug (which are on our images) you can't see it, and this is the case with all variants up to the current A5 spec ones. --commando552 (talk) 10:17, 15 November 2013 (EST)
Just to add, the hole in the handguard and the two position gas regulator is only on HK416A3 spec guns, the standard A1s do not have this, as exemplified by the image form the HK USA site. --commando552 (talk) 10:20, 15 November 2013 (EST)
HK416N is a norwegian designation for the 16.5" rifle, with the N meaning Normal. The other 416 variant we use is the HK416K (K meaning Kort or Karabin, in english, "short" or "carbine"). Contrary to popular belief N does not mean Norwegian, but Normal. But if you're absolutely sure the pics are correct, we'll leave them be. Ekcyboo 19:04, 15 November 2013 (EST)
This is what the very earliest production run of the HK416 looked like - they had the standard M4 six-position "LE" stock and different sights and pistol grips from the later production models. In the United States, the Hollywood prop house Independent Studio Services bought some of the very earliest HK416s from the first production run in 2005 - these are the HK416s that you have seen in The Unit, The Town, Terminator Salvation, G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra, and also in recent movies like The Expendables 2. I decided to add the picture of a 10" HK416 that appears on our Skyfall page to the main weapon entry, as well as notes about the different production generations, to avoid confusion. -MT2008 (talk) 21:41, 15 November 2013 (EST)
Currently we are calling the 10.4" variant the "HK416D". Does this come from anywhere real or is it just an airsoft naming mistake (this is the only reference I can find to the HK416D)? We used to call it the D10RS which is the correct (as far as I know) name, but at some point somebody has shortened this. The thing is though the "D" part of this has nothing to do with it being a carbine, as the other barrel length designations are D14.5RS, D16.5RS and D20RS. I was going to change it back but wanted to check that there wasn't some change in the official nomenclature that I am unaware of. On this topic, as a curiosity does anyone know what the "D" and "RS" actually represent in these designations? --commando552 (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2016 (EDT)
I've been wondering the same thing about the D and RS thing. I presume that it's some abbreviated german word(s). Slightly off topic but what's the deal with that finish HK slaps on everything nowadays? RA8000 or whatever it's called, has a shade of puke and curry poop. Why not just stick to FDE?--AnActualAK47 (talk) 20:07, 30 July 2016 (EDT)
Delicious selection of colors, makes me think of snot and sh*t.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 08:09, 31 July 2016 (EDT)
Considering that "HK 416 D" can be seen clearly printed on the left side of the mag well in a couple of pics, I'd say there's your answer to if it's real. As for what it means, the Interwebz says it stands for "Delta" (as in Delta Force), but I'm taking that with a grain of sand. Spartan198 (talk) 06:06, 1 August 2016 (EDT)
I would disregard the Delta thing right off the bat, as they have called it that since before it was adopted by anyone, and that sounds like typical airsoft manufacturer BS to me. HK 416 D is printed on the lowers (and suspiciously only on our 10.4" pictures), but I can find nothing that supports the "D" by itself being a specific variant for a barrel length as was previously stated on the page (it has subsequently been changed back since I asked). That wouldn't really make any sense for D to represent the carbine version as the D is used for all barrel length designations (D10RS, D14.5RS, D16.5RS and D20RS), and as far as I know the D doesn't represent anything related to carbine. You can also find a lot of images of non 10.4" barrel rifles with the D (1, 2, 3, 4), and there are also HK417s that are also marked D (eg). My guess on the meaning of the D might be that it stands for "Deutschland" so rather than indicate a specific variant it means that the rifles are German army spec, or made in Germany or something like that. I still have no idea what the "RS" might mean --commando552 (talk) 08:33, 1 August 2016 (EDT)
Well they're called D10RS on HK's site and all their D10RS images have "D"'s on them as well. Mr. Wolf (talk) 03:22, 2 August 2016 (EDT)
The question is though whether the D has anything to do with it being a carbine, which to me seems unlikely to me as all of the other length use the same nomenclature. Where on the HK site did you find images showing the D lower markings? On the HK USA site there are no examples of this on the HK416 page, and on the German site they only list the A5 models. --commando552 (talk) 04:49, 2 August 2016 (EDT)
Oh, I was mistaken, I must of been thing of this image. Though I still like to know what's proper, I already went and changed the page images to HK416 D10RS or D14.5RS just to be safe. Error creating thumbnail: File missingHK416 D10RS with M68 Aimpoint and Troy VFG – 5.56x45mm NATOMr. Wolf (talk) 07:27, 2 August 2016 (EDT)
I just checked the german HK site, if you look under the "general" section, it designates stocks as "RS" Could RS possibly mean retractable stock? Seems kinda weird to include RS in the name though. Then again, HK apparently think a MP7 with its stock retracted or extended are entirely different configurations, unless im mistaken.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2016 (EDT)
Although sort of pointless that would make some sort of sense, as all models seem to have the RS. The original HKM4 prototypes didn't use this RS designation, instead going for D10B and and D14.5B as seen in this flyer. I would assume in this case that the "B" is more likely a sequential prototype designation rather than anything to do with the stock. I still haven't been able to work out what the D means, but I think it is something to do with export or perhapds if they are select fire. For example, civilian HK416s in Canada are just marked "HK 416", whilst in America the very early ones were marked "HK 416 D" but the vast majority had an extra "SF" engraving added on to the end to signify that they were semi only. The change was due to the fact that the ATF had rather moronically classified the original gun as a "semi only machine gun" or some nonsense like that, and the designation was changed when they reclassified it correctly as an SBR (the only lengths that were imported in this batch were the 10.4" and 14.5"). --commando552 (talk) 18:16, 2 August 2016 (EDT)
Maybe MPM has some info on this.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2016 (EDT)
So i asked around and found this answer. D might stand for Defense.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 14:35, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
Development progression
Okay, so the most recent developmental version is the HK416A7 for the German KSK. Knowing that, I tried looking into the entire development progression for the rifle. Info is scant, but trawling HKPro, I found this info:
HKM4D - Developmental prototype stage, bore a much more significant resemblance to the M4.
HK416 - Original mass production model, as we tend to recognize it. No firing pin spring or firing pin safety.
HK416A1 - Added aforementioned firing pin spring and firing pin safety.
HK416A2 - Added over-the-beach barrel.
HK416A3 - Otherwise known as the "Norwegian variant", added a captive cotter pin on the bolt carrier to prevent its loss in the field, ability to engage the safety regardless of the hammer position, protective bridge over the disconnector, a unique to that country's weapon gas regulator, and taller flip up sights for use with top-mounted laser designators.
HK416A4 - Can't find any info.
HK416A5 - Variant designed for the Individual Carbine competition. The French Army version is derived as well.
HK416A6 - Can't find any info. Company name for the M27 IAR, maybe? It's development fits in between the A5 and A7
HK416A7 - Variant for the KSK. Fire selector rotates through 90 degrees like the G36 rather than the traditional 180 degrees on the M16, new modular grip which can accept different palm plates, and a new Keylok handguard that's somehow heavier than the already too heavy HK RIS handguard.
HK416Bw - Another one I've seen a couple scant references to, supposedly a variant intended as a light support weapon. Could this be the company name for the M27 IAR and the A6 a different model? I can't find any info on this one either, especially in regards to what "Bw" could mean. The W presumably could stand for waffe (weapon), but no terms I can think of relating to a mag-fed light support weapon translate to anything that "Bw" could be short for.
So, as you can see, the A4, A6, and Bw are the only ones I can't really find any info for. And, yes, I have far too much free time on my hands. lol Spartan198 (talk) 09:41, 3 May 2018 (EDT)
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