Latest revision as of 18:16, 9 February 2023

Additional Images

Model from the first batch of 400 units produced from December 21, 1940. This is a pre-production model. A characteristic feature is a sector sight with ten scales for shooting at a distance of 50 to 500 m.

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev

In 1941-1942, many changes were made to the design of the PPSh, in particular: the sector sight was replaced with a reversible rear sight for shooting at 100 and 200 meters, the magazine latch became more reliable, the shape of the shutter handle was changed, etc. An experimental sight was installed that differed from the later one no side cover. PPSh with a similar sight were produced in 1941-1942.

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev

Serial model with a magazine for 71 rounds and a simplified sight. Model 1942.

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

PPSh-41 with 71 round drum - 7.62x25mm Tokarev

The PPSh-41.

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

PPSh-41 with 35 round stick magazine - 7.62x25mm Tokarev

Discussion

how many times must I to write this PPS 43 not PPSh ,it was build by Sudaiev not Shpagin.

Does the page look more organized now?

Discussion

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

Soviet PPSh-41 Submachine Gun with 35 round stick magazine - 7.62x25mm Tokarev. This image is flipped.

Anyone know why the muzzle of this particular PPSh is different from the usual vented appearance?--AgentGumby (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2016 (EST)

Ridiculously dead discussion, I know, but that's a muzzle cover on the end. I didn't know that those were made for PPShs. Pyr0m4n14c (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2017 (EDT)

Move the KP-31 and the PPD on another page

I think that it's better move the description of the finnish KP-31 and the soviet PPD on page apart: The mechanical sistem of the submashingun are somewhat different from the Shpagin/Sudaiev system. However may be correct put the KP-31 and the PPD togeder, becous the PPD is a direct derivation of the finnish s.m.g. - Lone Soldier 10-28-2009 12:17

The PPS deserves it's own page. It's a completely different weapon. The only thing it has in common with the PPSh is the ammo. It can't even share mags. And tthe PPD can go on the MP-28 page. (Or just lump the MP18, MP28, Lanchester and PPD all on one page.) --funkychinaman 17:40, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. PPD and PPS is completely independent weapon that has nothing to do with the PPSh, except cartridge. They deserve their own pages. You also need to mention that the stick magazines used in the PPSh only since 1944, not 1942, as written here. In 1942, PPSh has changed only sight, but not the magazine. Flexo 10:55, 19 November 2011 (CST)

I think that it would be better to create their own pages for just all SMGs from this page: Suomi KP/-31, PPD-40 (with PPD-34), PPSh-41 (with K-50M), PPS-43 (with PPS-42, m/44, wz/1943/52 and Dux M53). Although they have much common, these are different enough weapon.

And sorry, Flexo, but you are wrong: stick magazines for PPSh were used since 1942 (the resolution of State Comitee for Defence dated Feb.12 1942). Greg-Z 11:26, 19 November 2011 (CST)

I speak not about when the GKO (SCD) resolution has been written, but about when these magazines have appeared in field army. I didn't see any photo denying my words. At least even in 1943 (for example during Kursk fight) these magazines can't be seen (I am assured, you know that photos of Red Army are rather easy for dating if you know dates of change of a uniform and rules of carrying of awards). Flexo 14:11, 19 November 2011 (CST)

I will examine my collection of wartime photos. As far as I remember there were photos of Red Army soldiers with PPShs with stick magazines during Stalingrad battle. And quick search in internet give this photo. It is battle for Caucasus mountains, early 1943. Greg-Z 01:10, 20 November 2011 (CST)

It is a pity to me, but this photo it is impossible precisely 1943. In this photo we see mountains, the person in a mountain overalls and tropical hat (I had same when I served in KGB troops in 1987) and PPSh-41. Therefore I can tell that it, for example, Central Asia, Pamir, KGB frontier troops, 1950. Now try to deny my words :-)) Flexo 03:03, 20 November 2011 (CST)

I wait for a photo of Stalingrad battle Flexo 03:03, 20 November 2011 (CST)

OK, it's your right not to trust. :) I'll try to get a 100% proof. Greg-Z 09:19, 20 November 2011 (CST)

This photo is attributed: "Stalingrad. Dom Pavlova (Pavlov's building). 1942". Of course drum magasines were seen far more often in this period but I think they were used from late 1942.

By the way, "Soviet firearms" by D.Bolotyn (3rd Edition, 1990, p.154) says that in Nov.1943 a new model of stick magazine was designed. It was made of 1 mm thick steel instead of 0.5 mm because the previous model proved itself not very good. So this stick magasine had to be used at least in 1943 in order to prove it somehow, right? Greg-Z 10:21, 20 November 2011 (CST)

My friend, do you believe what in the "Pavlov's building" there was a photographer? Ahahah... This photo can be carried absolutely to any period of War. ...Two soldiers shoot in ruins... For example it is storm of Kenigsberg? Why not? ...I will believe that it is 1942 only if I see signs of a military rank on a collars.

As to the BolotIn's book - probably new magazines were tested in 1943, but in photos, unfortunately, they can't be seen. Flexo 13:25, 20 November 2011 (CST)

Sorry, I have no "gold proof" so I'll not argue. Maybe you are right. Greg-Z 13:31, 20 November 2011 (CST)

All right mate. I am too not 100 % assured that I am right. Flexo 13:36, 20 November 2011 (CST)

I think the Finnish sub-machine gun deserves it's own page. Or dump it with the MP18 page, too. After all, it was the gun the Soviets based their PPD and PPSh. Or at least it should be on top of the page.

Ps. Yes, some PPSh's were converted to 9x19mm Parabellum, especially by the Finnish Army. They also sometimes simply used them as they were. It would have been stupid not to, since the Finns were sometimes so deep in their forests that Parabellum ammo would run out. Plus, it would have to be preserved for the KP/-31's. --Warejaws 15:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

This was discussed in the forum --Funkychinaman 13:47, 20 November 2011 (CST)

Question

Hi. I made a page for Cryostasis a few days ago. The PPSh-41 in it strangely keeps firing even when the trigger is released. (It fires about 4-5 rounds.) I read somewhere that this happens with the real PPSh too. Could anyone confirm this? If it is true, then I would include it on the game's page and also this could be some really realistic modeling/programing never seen before. Thank you. bozitojugg3rn4ut 14:49, 15 March 2011 (CDT)

The PPSh is a simple blow-back design that fires from a open bolt. There are several factors that would cause the gun to 'run away'. Under-powered ammunition would cause the bolt to short-cycle. Meaning the bolt isn't traveling far enough rearward to catch the sear. The weapon could be dirty and have foreign matter in the trigger group causing the sear to react slowly when the trigger is released. There could also be foreign matter in the path of the bolt's recoil, preventing it from engaging the sear. That being said, the PPSh is extremely reliable under extreme conditions. I have handled, repaired, and fired many PPSh's over the years and have never witnessed one run-away. The worst culprit for jamming is the drum magazine. They don't hold up well to rough handling. The curved 35rd box mag is superior. What you are experiencing in your game is simply a game designer who doesn't know weapons. They don't act like that in the real world. But I find that true of most all video games. 04:48hrs, 26 Sept 2015,--Pak43

K-50M

Is the K-50M really a Vietnamese copy, it looks nothing like it.--Gunner5

The basic upper and lower receiver is the same except that the barrel jacket is shortened and a AK-type front sight base is fitted. The wooden butt stock was done away with and replaced with sheet metal enclosing the lower receiver and a AK-type pistol grip added. A steel wire, collapsible butt stock, based on the French MAT-49, was added. Though it could still take the drum magazine, the intended mag was the curved 34 round PPSh magazine. The drum mag could not be used with the stock in the retracted position. --Pak43

Suomi

I just want to confirm: the Suomi is only chambered in 9mm Para and nothing else? Not 7.62mm Tok? --Funkychinaman 11:56, 5 July 2012 (CDT)

According to Jaegerplatoon.net, there was Suomi M/26 in 7.65x21 (or in 7.65x17, in different source). But this model looked different from M/31 and was produced in very limited numbers. "Year 1959 the remaining 57 Suomi M/26 were sold to Interarmco and shipped abroad year 1960." (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MACHINEPISTOLS1.htm). Finnish M/31 itself was only 9x19. Swedish Husqvarna M/37 copy of Suomi was in 9x20 Browning Long; M/37-41 and later models were in 9x19. Danish and Swiss versions were in 9x19. There is a rumor that there existed a Soviet copy of Suomi in 7.62x25 but I have not seen anything about such model in Russian sources, so it's a question. Greg-Z 12:39, 5 July 2012 (CDT)

The screencap below has bottlenecked shell casings coming out of a Suomi. I have a feeling they're just CGI shell casings, but I just want to be sure. Thanks. --Funkychinaman 13:02, 5 July 2012 (CDT)

Error creating thumbnail: File missing

The casing being ejected from the weapon look to be 9mm blank cases. The cases are full-length blank rounds. The overall length of the live 9mm round is reproduced for reliable feeding. There is a shoulder formed on the case so it will properly head-space in the chamber.

And the award for most bizarre use of the PPSh:

Evil Tim (talk) 20:56, 24 September 2015 (EDT)

What. --yocapo32 (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2015 (EDT)

It's a Soviet plane Tupolev Tu-2Sh, an experimental version of Tu-2 bomber. A battery of 88 PPSh was mounted in the bomb bay. The idea was to provide a massive fire against soft targets. Greg-Z (talk) 02:53, 26 September 2015 (EDT)

A similar idea was floated around the United States Army Air Corp in the late Teens/early 1920's using the Thompson Sub-machine gun. I don't believe it got past the Concept phase. 04:53hrs, 26 Sept, 2015, --Pak43

Holding the PPSh

Pretty sure there would be jamming issues when firing the weapon while grasping the magazine, right? There are multiple photographs of WWII soldiers either using this method with the drum magazine, or holding the part behind the magazine (though holding the barrel jacket is inadvisable due to high fire rate). --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 16:20, 25 December 2017 (EST)

I've never even held one of these guns let alone fired one, however my guess is that it would not be very susceptible to feeding issues based on how you were holding the magazine. The PPSh uses a bottlenecked cartridge so there is a lot of tolerance for the round feeding as the bullet is a lot smaller than the back of the chamber so it acts as sort of a funnel. I also think that the drum mags tended to be a relatively tight fit (to the point where they were not really interchangeable, you had the one that came with the gun which worked and if you wanted another there was a lot of trial and error. If you have a loose magazine I believe you can have a lot of problems feeding, but I think that this is the case if you are holding it by the drum or not. --commando552 (talk) 18:47, 25 December 2017 (EST)

Yeah, this is apparently the one exception where you are supposed to hold it by the magazine. Evil Tim (talk) 23:58, 25 December 2017 (EST)

Ah, then there aren't any issues with holding it by the drum mag (as with some instances like this and this). Can the same be said about the 35-round box magazine? --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 04:38, 26 December 2017 (EST)

The box mag seems to be reinforced at the top so I'm not sure if even that would cause problems: the box was overall a bit crap at first since it was only 0.5mm steel, but they changed that to 1mm thick and that basically solved every problem the PPSh mags and drums had. Regarding misfeeds, you'd be more likely to cause them by actually loading the drum to capacity since it started to complain if you put more than about 65 in it. Evil Tim (talk) 05:34, 26 December 2017 (EST)

Service manual for PPSh shows several ways of holding the drum magazine. The scan of original manual can be seen here. This page shows two standard ways of holding. I cannot find a manual for PPSh with stick magazine. Here is a page from PPS-43 manual, but it has different magazine. Greg-Z (talk) 05:42, 26 December 2017 (EST)

Yeah, that's one point, you're supposed to support the base of the drum mag with your palm, grasping the side of it like in those CoD shots wasn't what they trained people to do. Not that this seems to have stopped anyone from doing it anyway, and it doesn't seem to have caused feeding problems holding it the "wrong" way. Evil Tim (talk) 05:52, 26 December 2017 (EST)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+=Additional Images=
+Model from the first batch of 400 units produced from December 21, 1940. This is a pre-production model. A characteristic feature is a sector sight with ten scales for shooting at a distance of 50 to 500 m.
+[[File:PPsh-41 early sight drum mag Right.jpg|thumb|none|400px|PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev]]
+[[File:PPsh-41 early sight drum mag Left.jpg|thumb|none|400px|PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev]]
+In 1941-1942, many changes were made to the design of the PPSh, in particular: the sector sight was replaced with a reversible rear sight for shooting at 100 and 200 meters, the magazine latch became more reliable, the shape of the shutter handle was changed, etc. An experimental sight was installed that differed from the later one no side cover. PPSh with a similar sight were produced in 1941-1942.
+[[File:PPsh-41 experimental sight drum mag Right.jpg|thumb|none|400px|PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev]]
+[[File:PPsh-41 experimental sight drum mag Left.jpg|thumb|none|400px|PPSh-41 - 7.62x25mm Tokarev]]
+Serial model with a magazine for 71 rounds and a simplified sight. Model 1942.
+[[File:PPSH-01-SMG.jpg|thumb|none|400px|PPSh-41 with 71 round drum - 7.62x25mm Tokarev]]
+The PPSh-41.
+[[File:Ppsh41-2.jpg|thumb|none|400px|PPSh-41 with 35 round stick magazine - 7.62x25mm Tokarev]]
+= Discussion =
 how many times  must I to write this PPS 43 not PPSh ,it was build by Sudaiev not Shpagin.
 Does the page look more organized now?
-===Move the KP-31 and  the PPD on another page===
+==Discussion==
+[[File:Ppsh41-2.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Soviet PPSh-41 Submachine Gun with 35 round stick magazine - 7.62x25mm Tokarev. This image is flipped.]]
+Anyone know why the muzzle of this particular PPSh is different from the usual vented appearance?--[[User:AgentGumby|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby|talk]]) 00:04, 14 December 2016 (EST)
+:Ridiculously dead discussion, I know, but that's a muzzle cover on the end. I didn't know that those were made for PPShs. [[User:Pyr0m4n14c|Pyr0m4n14c]] ([[User talk:Pyr0m4n14c|talk]]) 17:15, 21 April 2017 (EDT)
+==Move the KP-31 and  the PPD on another page==
 I think that it's better move the description of the finnish KP-31 and the soviet PPD on page apart: The mechanical sistem
 of the submashingun are somewhat different from the Shpagin/Sudaiev system.
@@ Line 33: / Line 55: @@
 ==Question==
 Hi. I made a page for [[Cryostasis]] a few days ago. The PPSh-41 in it strangely keeps firing even when the trigger is released. (It fires about 4-5 rounds.) I read somewhere that this happens with the ''real'' PPSh too. Could anyone confirm this? If it is true, then I would include it on the game's page and also this could be some really realistic modeling/programing never seen before. Thank you. [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:49, 15 March 2011 (CDT)
+The PPSh is a simple blow-back design that fires from a open bolt. There are several factors that would cause the gun to 'run away'. Under-powered ammunition would cause the bolt to short-cycle. Meaning the bolt isn't traveling far enough rearward to catch the sear. The weapon could be dirty and have foreign matter in the trigger group causing the sear to react slowly when the trigger is released. There could also be foreign matter in the path of the bolt's recoil, preventing it from engaging the sear. That being said, the PPSh is extremely reliable under extreme conditions. I have handled, repaired, and fired many PPSh's over the years and have never witnessed one run-away. The worst culprit for jamming is the drum magazine. They don't hold up well to rough handling. The curved 35rd box mag is superior. What you are experiencing in your game is simply a game designer who doesn't know weapons. They don't act like that in the real world. But I find that true of most all video games. 04:48hrs, 26 Sept 2015,--Pak43
 == K-50M ==
 Is the K-50M really a Vietnamese copy, it looks nothing like it.--Gunner5
+The basic upper and lower receiver is the same except that the barrel jacket is shortened and a AK-type front sight base is fitted. The wooden butt stock was done away with and replaced with sheet metal enclosing the lower receiver and a AK-type pistol grip added. A steel wire, collapsible butt stock, based on the French MAT-49, was added. Though it could still take the drum magazine, the intended mag was the curved 34 round PPSh magazine. The drum mag could not be used with the stock in the retracted position. --Pak43
 == Suomi ==
@@ Line 44: / Line 70: @@
 ::The screencap below has bottlenecked shell casings coming out of a Suomi. I have a feeling they're just CGI shell casings, but I just want to be sure. Thanks. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 13:02, 5 July 2012 (CDT)
 [[Image:MaxM_Suomi_03.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
+The casing being ejected from the weapon look to be 9mm blank cases. The cases are full-length blank rounds. The overall length of the live 9mm round is reproduced for reliable feeding. There is a shoulder formed on the case so it will properly head-space in the chamber.
+== And the award for most bizarre use of the PPSh: ==
+[[Image:PPSh-bomber.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]
+[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 20:56, 24 September 2015 (EDT)
+:What. --[[User:Yocapo32|yocapo32]] ([[User talk:Yocapo32|talk]]) 18:40, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
+::It's a Soviet plane Tupolev Tu-2Sh, an experimental version of Tu-2 bomber. A battery of 88 PPSh was mounted in the bomb bay. The idea was to provide a massive fire against soft targets. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 02:53, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
+A similar idea was floated around the United States Army Air Corp in the late Teens/early 1920's using the Thompson Sub-machine gun. I don't believe it got past the Concept phase. 04:53hrs, 26 Sept, 2015, --Pak43
+==Holding the PPSh==
+Pretty sure there would be jamming issues when firing the weapon while grasping the magazine, right? There are multiple photographs of WWII soldiers either using this method with the drum magazine, or holding the part behind the magazine (though holding the barrel jacket is inadvisable due to high fire rate). --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 16:20, 25 December 2017 (EST)
+:I've never even held one of these guns let alone fired one, however my guess is that it would not be very susceptible to feeding issues based on how you were holding the magazine. The PPSh uses a bottlenecked cartridge so there is a lot of tolerance for the round feeding as the bullet is a lot smaller than the back of the chamber so it acts as sort of a funnel. I also think that the drum mags tended to be a relatively tight fit (to the point where they were not really interchangeable, you had the one that came with the gun which worked and if you wanted another there was a lot of trial and error. If you have a loose magazine I believe you can have a lot of problems feeding, but I think that this is the case if you are holding it by the drum or not.  --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 18:47, 25 December 2017 (EST)
+::Yeah, this is apparently the one exception where you ''are'' supposed to hold it by the magazine. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 23:58, 25 December 2017 (EST)
+:::Ah, then there aren't any issues with holding it by the drum mag (as with some instances like [[:File:CoDWWII-PPSh 5.jpg|this]] and [[:File:CoDUOPPSh41 1.JPG|this]]). Can the same be said about the 35-round box magazine? --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 04:38, 26 December 2017 (EST)
+::::The box mag seems to be reinforced at the top so I'm not sure if even that would cause problems: the box was overall a bit crap at first since it was only 0.5mm steel, but they changed that to 1mm thick and that basically solved every problem the PPSh mags and drums had. Regarding misfeeds, you'd be more likely to cause them by actually loading the drum to capacity since it started to complain if you put more than about 65 in it. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 05:34, 26 December 2017 (EST)
+:::::Service manual for PPSh shows several ways of holding the drum magazine. The scan of original manual can be seen [http://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=159&t=213427 here]. [http://popgun.ru/files/g/18/orig/410426.jpg This page] shows two standard ways of holding. I cannot find a manual for PPSh with stick magazine. [https://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/3/7/0/6057073.jpg Here] is a page from PPS-43 manual, but it has different magazine. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 05:42, 26 December 2017 (EST)
+::::::Yeah, that's one point, you're supposed to support the base of the drum mag with your palm, grasping the side of it like in those CoD shots wasn't what they trained people to do. [https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/11/112064/1619943-ars57_6.jpg Not that this seems to have stopped] [https://russiansmallarms.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/german-ppsh41-captured2.jpg anyone from doing it anyway], and it doesn't seem to have caused feeding problems holding it the "wrong" way. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 05:52, 26 December 2017 (EST)

Talk:PPSh-41: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 18:16, 9 February 2023

Contents

Additional Images

Discussion

Discussion

Move the KP-31 and the PPD on another page

Question

K-50M

Suomi

And the award for most bizarre use of the PPSh:

Holding the PPSh

Navigation menu

Talk:PPSh-41: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 18:16, 9 February 2023

Additional Images

Discussion

Discussion

Move the KP-31 and the PPD on another page

Question

K-50M

Suomi

And the award for most bizarre use of the PPSh:

Holding the PPSh

Navigation menu

Search