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Talk:Remington Model 8: Difference between revisions
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== Variations == | == Variations == | ||
[[File:RemingtonPolice Package.jpg|thumb|none| | [[File:RemingtonPolice Package.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Remington Model 81 Woodmaster converted by the Peace Officer's Equipment Company to use detachable 15 round magazines.]] | ||
[[File:HAWKEYE-PROTECTIVE-ALLIANCE-FINAL-FINAL-RGB1.jpg|thumb|none| | [[File:HAWKEYE-PROTECTIVE-ALLIANCE-FINAL-FINAL-RGB1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Poster advertising the modification work by the Peace Officer's Equipment Company of St. Joseph, Missouri.]] | ||
[[File:Public Enemy Remington.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Remington Model 8 converted with 15-round detachable magazine and foregrip]] | |||
[[Image:Remington_rollmark.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Remington Model 81 Semiautomatic Rifle with scope - very similar to the Model 8]] | |||
== Remington Model 81 "Special Police" == | |||
The following is an exert from ''Police Gun Perfection: The Peace Officer Equipment Remington Autoloading Rifles'' | |||
By Cameron Woodall | |||
The article in it's entirety can be found at http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/?page_id=659 | |||
It is an excellent site and a wealth of information on the Model 8 and Model 81. Highly recommended.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 19:28, 31 December 2012 (EST) | |||
[[File:REMINGTON-POLICE-GUNS-RGB.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Remington "Special Police" advertisement circa 1941. Note that besides the Model 81A the ad also features the Model 31 and Model 11 shotguns.]] | |||
Recognizing the extraordinary firepower of the POE built Model 8, Remington wanted in on the action with a police rifle of their own. In 1938 the company was gearing up to bring out a new line of modified firearms dubbed “Special Police” aimed specifically for sale to the law enforcement community. The Model 11 & 31 shotguns were included in this lineup and after work with POE, the Model 81 as well. The Model 81 Police rifle was a powerhouse fit for close range work just like its Model 8 predecessor. With a 15 round magazine, the officer didn’t have to worry about immediate reloading nor lacking fire superiority! The “Special Police” rifle, introduced in early 1940, was essentially a continuation of the Peace Officers’ Equipment Co. Model 8 but with larger marketing hopes. As stated, the primary market for the “Special Police” was to law enforcement agencies but during the onset of WWII, Remington Asst. Director of Mfg., E.C. Hadley, had other ideas in mind, | |||
''“National Guard companies could be supplied with these semiautomatics. They would prove to be of great value in guarding key points such as railroad stations, utility nerve centers, and bridgeheads. Rifles like these in the hands of trained marksmen would certainly prove their worth in dealing with parachute troops, for example. They could be picked off with the semiautomatic in the short time of their descent while the soldier with the bolt action rifle would lose precious seconds in reloading after each shot”'' (Chicago Daily Tribune, May 6th, 1940) | |||
Mr. Hadley went on to further explain the “Special Police” was not a military firearm; it was built on a sporting / hunting platform and was not practical for frontline troop use. Remington’s Model 81 police version was certainly unique in the production firearms market; it had more magazine capacity and more punch than most of its contemporaries. But despite its impressive attributes, the police version of the Model 81 was only produced in limited quantities. | |||
'''Production''' | |||
Remington was in the works with Peace Officer’s as early as March 1938 on the acquisition of rights in order to produce their own version of the 15 round magazine. After estimating costs of producing the magazines themselves or paying royalties, Remington ended up purchasing the magazines from POE, then fitting and bluing them at the factory. An interoffice memo dated Dec. 29, 1939 spills out the need for master trigger plates and receivers to test POE magazine interchangeability. The magazines were to be fitted to these master assemblies prior to fitting to the actual production host rifle. Special Police Model 81’s do not have unique serial numbers; this is because there were not enough of them manufactured to constitute Remington having specially machined trigger plates and receivers on hand. Instead Remington simply used standard 81′s in stock to make up Police guns. There is a trend however of Special Police rifles falling into certain serial number blocks. The most common blocks during this study were 99XX – 10XXX, 136XX, 155XX-157XX, and 187XX – 202XX. | |||
'''POE Magazine Capacities''' | |||
''15 Rounds'' | |||
The predominant POE magazine is the 15 round version. These are found on the majority of both the POE 8’s and Special Police 81’s. In an overwhelming majority of POE 8 & 81’s studied (this includes solitary magazines), 55 out of 61 were 15 round versions. This capacity is also depicted in the 1937 U.S. Patent filed by Newton S. Hillyard. There are some slight differences between Police 8 & 81 magazines. Model 8 magazines can be identified by the markings “Pat. Pend.” underneath the company name, and the number “15” between the bottom two indicator holes. The Model 8 magazines will have 3 indicator holes, one on top, two on bottom. Model 81 magazines will only have 2 round indicator holes, one on bottom, one on top. On Model 81 magazines, the number “15” was omitted and “Pat. Pend.” was replaced with “Patent No. 2, 081, 235”. Per Remington’s instruction, most model 81 magazines will be hand marked by caliber. Due to the nature of their manufacture, POE magazines will vary slightly in certain areas with evidence of hand filing. A number of different followers have been noticed. Occasionally the inside of the magazine release lever (called the depending lever) will have the last two digits of the serial number stamped or the magazine number if more than one were made for a rifle. This evidently is there because these magazines were handmade and individual parts were matched to the corresponding magazine box. In the photograph note the different indicator holes, serial number location, and Patent markings. | |||
[[File:8-81-magazine-comparison-names.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]] | |||
''10 Rounds'' | |||
Peace Officer Equip. Co. also produced a 10 round magazine. Their prevalence is substantially less than that of the 15 round versions; in fact only 1 example out of the 46 studied was found. These magazines are not aftermarket jobs but were produced by POE in limited numbers and have only been found on Model 8’s. They only have 1 indicator hole located at the top of the magazine. Pictured below is rifle # 697XX (May, 1936) marked, “Sheriff’s Office Fulton MO.”, and equipped with a 10 round magazine. | |||
[[File:10-round-magazine.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Remington Model 81A with 10 round magazine. Photograph courtesy of Doug Baier]] | |||
An advertisement below, from the 1934 Peace Officers’ Equipment catalog, shows a two specialty law enforcement firearms. Although the Model 8 is advertised as a “15 Shot High Power Autoloading Rifle”, the magazine in the photograph is of considerable shorter length than the more common 15 round version. Its length is consistent with rifle # 697XX. | |||
[[File:Flash-Commander-Flyer-03.jpg|thumb|none|400px|1934 Peace Officer's Equipment advertisement. Image courtesy of The Hillyard Companies]] | |||
''5 Rounds'' | |||
The 5 round version has only been found on 30cal. Special Police 81’s associated with the Connecticut State Police. The magazines appear to be converted from 15 rounders and barely protrude below the trigger guard. It is very likely these were factory shortened magazines. The only foreseeable advantage of this setup is quick changing of the magazine, as with the shortened length, there is no gain in cartridge capacity over a standard Model 81 magazine. Only three examples of this type were observed during this study, two such rifles # 155XX, and # 100XX are pictured below. Notice that rifle # 155XX is lacking Police Gun markings entirely which is unusual but not alarming. All other aspects of this rifle correspond to original Special Police rifles. | |||
[[File:5roundmagPolicespecial.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Remington Special Police Model 81A w/ 5 round magazine. Photograph courtesy of Joe Homberger]] | |||
[[File:5roundRemmag.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Remington Model 81A Police Special w/5 round magazine.Connecticut State Police 81 #100XX. This rifle was manufactured in Jan. 1940 and is among the first of Special Police rifles built. After a decade of department service, it was sold by the State Police in November 1950. Photograph courtesy of Bob and Jeff Pajtas]] | |||
== Miscellaneous == | == Miscellaneous == | ||
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:This site isn't like wikipedia, so it is perfectly fine. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]] | :This site isn't like wikipedia, so it is perfectly fine. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]] | ||
== fixed box magazine == | |||
How do you load one if it can't be detached from the gun? - [[User: 2wingo]] | |||
:I'm guessing stripper clips. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 23:36, 9 February 2013 (EST) | |||
::Yes. Stripper clips or one at a time. People forget that it wasn't that long ago that detachable mags were fairly uncommon.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 03:40, 11 February 2013 (EST) | |||
Latest revision as of 17:59, 11 February 2019
Variations
Remington Model 81 "Special Police"
The following is an exert from Police Gun Perfection: The Peace Officer Equipment Remington Autoloading Rifles By Cameron Woodall
The article in it's entirety can be found at http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/?page_id=659
It is an excellent site and a wealth of information on the Model 8 and Model 81. Highly recommended.--Jcordell (talk) 19:28, 31 December 2012 (EST)
Recognizing the extraordinary firepower of the POE built Model 8, Remington wanted in on the action with a police rifle of their own. In 1938 the company was gearing up to bring out a new line of modified firearms dubbed “Special Police” aimed specifically for sale to the law enforcement community. The Model 11 & 31 shotguns were included in this lineup and after work with POE, the Model 81 as well. The Model 81 Police rifle was a powerhouse fit for close range work just like its Model 8 predecessor. With a 15 round magazine, the officer didn’t have to worry about immediate reloading nor lacking fire superiority! The “Special Police” rifle, introduced in early 1940, was essentially a continuation of the Peace Officers’ Equipment Co. Model 8 but with larger marketing hopes. As stated, the primary market for the “Special Police” was to law enforcement agencies but during the onset of WWII, Remington Asst. Director of Mfg., E.C. Hadley, had other ideas in mind,
“National Guard companies could be supplied with these semiautomatics. They would prove to be of great value in guarding key points such as railroad stations, utility nerve centers, and bridgeheads. Rifles like these in the hands of trained marksmen would certainly prove their worth in dealing with parachute troops, for example. They could be picked off with the semiautomatic in the short time of their descent while the soldier with the bolt action rifle would lose precious seconds in reloading after each shot” (Chicago Daily Tribune, May 6th, 1940)
Mr. Hadley went on to further explain the “Special Police” was not a military firearm; it was built on a sporting / hunting platform and was not practical for frontline troop use. Remington’s Model 81 police version was certainly unique in the production firearms market; it had more magazine capacity and more punch than most of its contemporaries. But despite its impressive attributes, the police version of the Model 81 was only produced in limited quantities.
Production
Remington was in the works with Peace Officer’s as early as March 1938 on the acquisition of rights in order to produce their own version of the 15 round magazine. After estimating costs of producing the magazines themselves or paying royalties, Remington ended up purchasing the magazines from POE, then fitting and bluing them at the factory. An interoffice memo dated Dec. 29, 1939 spills out the need for master trigger plates and receivers to test POE magazine interchangeability. The magazines were to be fitted to these master assemblies prior to fitting to the actual production host rifle. Special Police Model 81’s do not have unique serial numbers; this is because there were not enough of them manufactured to constitute Remington having specially machined trigger plates and receivers on hand. Instead Remington simply used standard 81′s in stock to make up Police guns. There is a trend however of Special Police rifles falling into certain serial number blocks. The most common blocks during this study were 99XX – 10XXX, 136XX, 155XX-157XX, and 187XX – 202XX.
POE Magazine Capacities
15 Rounds
The predominant POE magazine is the 15 round version. These are found on the majority of both the POE 8’s and Special Police 81’s. In an overwhelming majority of POE 8 & 81’s studied (this includes solitary magazines), 55 out of 61 were 15 round versions. This capacity is also depicted in the 1937 U.S. Patent filed by Newton S. Hillyard. There are some slight differences between Police 8 & 81 magazines. Model 8 magazines can be identified by the markings “Pat. Pend.” underneath the company name, and the number “15” between the bottom two indicator holes. The Model 8 magazines will have 3 indicator holes, one on top, two on bottom. Model 81 magazines will only have 2 round indicator holes, one on bottom, one on top. On Model 81 magazines, the number “15” was omitted and “Pat. Pend.” was replaced with “Patent No. 2, 081, 235”. Per Remington’s instruction, most model 81 magazines will be hand marked by caliber. Due to the nature of their manufacture, POE magazines will vary slightly in certain areas with evidence of hand filing. A number of different followers have been noticed. Occasionally the inside of the magazine release lever (called the depending lever) will have the last two digits of the serial number stamped or the magazine number if more than one were made for a rifle. This evidently is there because these magazines were handmade and individual parts were matched to the corresponding magazine box. In the photograph note the different indicator holes, serial number location, and Patent markings.
10 Rounds
Peace Officer Equip. Co. also produced a 10 round magazine. Their prevalence is substantially less than that of the 15 round versions; in fact only 1 example out of the 46 studied was found. These magazines are not aftermarket jobs but were produced by POE in limited numbers and have only been found on Model 8’s. They only have 1 indicator hole located at the top of the magazine. Pictured below is rifle # 697XX (May, 1936) marked, “Sheriff’s Office Fulton MO.”, and equipped with a 10 round magazine.
An advertisement below, from the 1934 Peace Officers’ Equipment catalog, shows a two specialty law enforcement firearms. Although the Model 8 is advertised as a “15 Shot High Power Autoloading Rifle”, the magazine in the photograph is of considerable shorter length than the more common 15 round version. Its length is consistent with rifle # 697XX.
5 Rounds
The 5 round version has only been found on 30cal. Special Police 81’s associated with the Connecticut State Police. The magazines appear to be converted from 15 rounders and barely protrude below the trigger guard. It is very likely these were factory shortened magazines. The only foreseeable advantage of this setup is quick changing of the magazine, as with the shortened length, there is no gain in cartridge capacity over a standard Model 81 magazine. Only three examples of this type were observed during this study, two such rifles # 155XX, and # 100XX are pictured below. Notice that rifle # 155XX is lacking Police Gun markings entirely which is unusual but not alarming. All other aspects of this rifle correspond to original Special Police rifles.
Miscellaneous
Just curious if the website owner would care to request permission to use my Remington Model 8 image after lifting it from my own webhost, since I even went to the trouble of watermarking it... (Hint, hint)
- This site isn't like wikipedia, so it is perfectly fine. - Gunmaster45
fixed box magazine
How do you load one if it can't be detached from the gun? - User: 2wingo
- I'm guessing stripper clips. --Funkychinaman (talk) 23:36, 9 February 2013 (EST)