Talk:Knight's Armament PDW: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 01:31, 10 September 2012

Classification of this weapon

Is this really classed as a submachine gun? http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw_last_18.jpg Temp89 13:04, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

Technically it's a PDW which is under a submachine gun Excalibur01 11:32, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

But realistically it's a compact carbine, like the G36C and HK53. Spartan198 11:54, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

Oh, this debate again, after I made a case for maintaining the separation of the PDW and SMG categories on the forums. In any case, "mainstay" PDWs like the MP7 and the FN P90 can be considered SMGs partly because the "fires pistol ammunition" part of the SMG's definition is fulfilled by the Five-seveN and the HK UCP. The KAC PDW's cartridge, however, is too long to fit into a service pistol (like the .30 Carbine was) and is thus strictly a carbine round, muddying its classification further. --Mazryonh 12:42, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

But PDWs can include AKS-74Us which are definitely rifles. To me PDW has always meant beefed-up SMG or cut-down AR. And the fundamental aspect for classifying a gun has always been its ammunition, and this cartridge is closer to rifle than pistol. I don't mind having a separate label for PDWs, but this gun's page in particular has been given the SMG label and gets lumped in SMG sections of movide pages.Temp89 13:04, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

The AK-74U is basically a 74 with a shorter barrel. It is still a RIFLE caliber. A PDW uses a sort of hybrid of a rifle caliber but shrunken to a pistol form. An SMG uses pistol caliber ammo. This gun is something else because it fires an even small bullet than today's standard intermediate cartridge. A PDW is not a cut down AR, a cut down AR is still an AR because it still fires AR rounds. Excalibur01 22:16, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

Yep, an intermediate cartridge's intermediate cartridge (cue the obligatory Inception reference). But yes, a cut down assault/battle rifle is just a carbine or a compact carbine. In an older thread on the forum, I tried to argue that the unique cartridges used by PDWs (rifle-sized projectile diameters, but shorter-than-assault-rifle lengths) merited a separate category, since the "mission profile" is for armour-piercing low-recoil cartridges that allow for smaller weapons than even the most compact of carbines firing assault- or battle-rifle cartridges. If I had my way, I'd drop the "personal defence weapon" moniker immediately (since these weapons can and have been used in an assault role, not just "personal defence") and just call them "micro-rifles" or "sub-rifles," since these PDWs were designed to be effective short-range armour-piercers while using a platform even smaller than mainstay carbines. And no, the PP-2000 and the like are just SMGs loaded with penetrator-containing rounds, since the rounds they use weren't designed from the ground-up to be armour-piercing, unlike the PDW cartridges were. --Mazryonh 19:56, 20 August 2012 (CDT)

PDW is a sales term that means whatever the salesmen decide it means; there is no fixed definition of what kind of weapon you can call a PDW and it's been applied to SMGs, carbine rifles firing completely normal intermediate rounds, and even handguns. The 6mm bullet is an intermediate round (it's short but weighs more than a 5.56mm bullet) and so this is a compact carbine. Evil Tim 06:28, 24 August 2012 (CDT)

As should have been obvious to those salespeople, any weapon can be used "defensively" (which is kind of funny because the P90 has generally NOT been issued to second-line troops, even as they come under increasing terrorist, insurgent, and "I thought he was green" fire, but to CQB assault or VIP protection teams). That's why I believe terms like micro- or sub-rifles would be more descriptive than something as vague as "PDW." And while 6x35mm is too long for a handgun that loads into the grip, I'd say that it's still too short to be a full-fledged intermediate cartridge (those dimensions make me wonder why they didn't go to 6.5x39mm Grendel instead). Sure, the WWII Germans began the intermediate cartridge era with 7.92x33mm, but that was more an act of desperation than anything else--I'm sure they would have gone with a longer length to increase effective range had development started earlier. As for weighing more than 5.56mm rounds, there are heavier ones available, and it's not that big an achievement since 5.56mm rounds are so narrow for their length. --Mazryonh 22:59, 24 August 2012 (CDT)

Ok, the 6x35mm isn't too short for an intermediate cartridge. Look at .300 Blackout (7.62x35mm). Jeddostotle7 23:49, 24 August 2012 (CDT)

Intermediate rounds can be pretty stumpy; 4.7x33mm caseless is an intermediate, and as you say so is the 7.92x33mm Kurz. Trying to put something between intermediate and pistol sort of ignores that everything between pistol and rifle is intermediate. Besides, it's all of 4 millimetres away from 39mm, and you can hardly say 39mm isn't intermediate unless you think the AK series are actually all SMGs. Evil Tim 03:38, 25 August 2012 (CDT)

Another thing to bear in mind is that out of a 10" barrel this cartridge produces more muzzle energy than a 5.56x45mm NATO as it is designed specifically to be used on SBRs. The round is designed to burn the majority of the powder whilst the bullet is still within the barrel meaning that very little energy is lost, as opposed to on more powerful rounds, such as the Grendal you suggested, where not all the powder will have burnt by the time the bullet leaves the barrel meaning a lot of potential energy is wasted. I believe that out of a 10" barrel both round have the same muzzle energy (maybe even slightly more on the 6x35mm) but the deal breaker is the fact that the KAC round has less recoil making it more controllable. --commando552 05:45, 25 August 2012 (CDT)

I think the line between pistol cartridge and rifle cartridge (or something looking to achieve rifle-like velocities and penetration at close range, at least) has to be drawn somewhere. I would think that a 30mm case length would be the case, because that's already pushing the limit of what can go in a service handgun grip like the HK UCP, or a firearm that loads those cases into a pistol grip, like the HK MP7A1. Besides, wasn't .300 Blackout originally a "special purpose cartridge" designed for optimal subsonic performance? And isn't it fairly easy to have more muzzle energy than typical 5.56mm NATO rounds out of a short-range barrel (you could go with the new Mk. 262 rounds, for instance)? I still would move to call these shorter intermediate rounds "sub-rifle" rounds because of their optimization with compact weaponry and their design objectives to duplicate rifle velocities and rifle-level armour-penetration at short ranges. -Mazryonh (talk) 00:44, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

There isn't a line, it's a matter of common sense. Everything between a pistol cartridge and a rifle cartridge is an intermediate cartridge. Please stop trying to make us invent an entire new class of ammunition. Evil Tim (talk) 04:29, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

But what determines something to be "compact weaponry"? The STG 44, M16, and AK47 are all more compact than the rifles of their time, which would put them in the new sub rifle category. I mean would you consider a HK53 a PDW since it shoots a bullet that is classified as intermediate, or smaller than rifle but larger than pistol cartridge, and has an 8 inch barrel? If not why? Just because ballistics technology has improved and new technology is better at preventing loss of energy then it was when the gun was developed. It just seems like there is no practical way to say that one weapon is a PDW where another weapon is a compact assault rifle, even if you go by case length then the first widely used assault rifle would be the STG 44 with a 33mm case length, meaning that the case length would need to be smaller than that in order to differentiate intermediate vs sub gun, which would put this gun out of the sub gun category. Dover500 (talk) 12:31, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

I'm sure we can all agree that 6x35mm or .300 BLK or 8mm Kurz are at the "lower" end of intermediate. And what I would call a "sub-rifle" (mainly to get rid of the "PDW" nonsense) isn't solely a function of its barrel length but also the characteristics of its cartridge and what design objectives a firearm was made to fulfill (mainly the penetration of Level IIIA armour or lower). But if you want to know what I consider a firearm (chambered in an assault/battle rifle cartridge)is according to its barrel length, here's a summary below:

17 inches or more (such as the M16A4, the FN FAL or the Kar98k): Full-size rifle, though I would prefer that 20 inches or more is the ballpark figure for a full-size rifle and a barrel length of 17 inches to below 20 inches be designated a "long carbine."
14-16 inches (such as the M4A1, the G36K, the AK-74, etc.): "Standard" Carbine.
12-14 inches (such as the MTAR-21, the SCAR-H CQC): Compact Carbine.
Less than 12 inches (such as CQB-R, the G36C, the AKS-74U, etc.): Ultracompact Carbine.

I didn't have to "invent" a new class of ammunition; the manufacturers of the P90, the MP7, the KAC PDW, the CBJ-MS, the Indian Modern Sub Machine Carbine etc. already did! And one thing all of those have in common are standard barrel lengths that fall into what I defined as the "Ultracompact carbine" category above. Another thing is that the cartridges, largely being miniaturized versions of rifle cartridges, are intended to duplicate the armour-piercing performance of rifle cartridges from a shorter barrel length (which is why I call them SUB-rifle cartridges). To me that's enough of a distinction to separate them from the larger intermediate cartridges. --Mazryonh (talk) 03:06, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

We're not going to do this, please stop talking about it. Evil Tim (talk) 06:40, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

Getting the classifications here to change wasn't my intention. But it does help to put PDWs into perspective if you think of them in the ways I've illustrated.--Mazryonh (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

The PDW was basically an attempt by the gun industry to revive flagging subgun sales caused by the rise of bad guys wearing body armour. Turned out sticking AP ammo in subguns wasn't as good an idea as using carbine rifles, which is why they haven't really had all that much success. Evil Tim (talk) 21:31, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

Redirect needed?

If someone enters "KAC PDW" into the search form, I hope they get taken to this page. It works that way for wikipedia for that weapon's page there. --Mazryonh 12:28, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

It's already created. --Funkychinaman 12:40, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+==Classification of this weapon==
 Is this really classed as a submachine gun?
-http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw_last_18.jpg
+http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw_last_18.jpg [[User:Temp89|Temp89]] 13:04, 19 August 2012 (CDT)
 Technically it's a PDW which is under a submachine gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:32, 19 August 2012 (CDT)
@@ Line 7: / Line 9: @@
 :Oh, this debate again, after I made a case for maintaining the separation of the PDW and SMG categories on the forums. In any case, "mainstay" PDWs like the MP7 and the FN P90 can be considered SMGs partly because the "fires pistol ammunition" part of the SMG's definition is fulfilled by the Five-seveN and the HK UCP. The KAC PDW's cartridge, however, is too long to fit into a service pistol (like the .30 Carbine was) and is thus strictly a carbine round, muddying its classification further. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 12:42, 19 August 2012 (CDT)
+:: But PDWs can include AKS-74Us which are definitely rifles. To me PDW has always meant beefed-up SMG or cut-down AR. And the fundamental aspect for classifying a gun has always been its ammunition, and this cartridge is closer to rifle than pistol. I don't mind having a separate label for PDWs, but this gun's page in particular has been given the SMG label and gets lumped in SMG sections of movide pages.[[User:Temp89|Temp89]] 13:04, 19 August 2012 (CDT)
+The AK-74U is basically a 74 with a shorter barrel. It is still a RIFLE caliber. A PDW uses a sort of hybrid of a rifle caliber but shrunken to a pistol form. An SMG uses pistol caliber ammo. This gun is something else because it fires an even small bullet than today's standard intermediate cartridge. A PDW is not a cut down AR, a cut down AR is still an AR because it still fires AR rounds. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:16, 19 August 2012 (CDT)
+:Yep, an intermediate cartridge's intermediate cartridge (cue the obligatory [[Inception]] reference). But yes, a cut down assault/battle rifle is just a carbine or a compact carbine. In an older thread on the forum, I tried to argue that the unique cartridges used by PDWs (rifle-sized projectile diameters, but shorter-than-assault-rifle lengths) merited a separate category, since the "mission profile" is for armour-piercing low-recoil cartridges that allow for smaller weapons than even the most compact of carbines firing assault- or battle-rifle cartridges. If I had my way, I'd drop the "personal defence weapon" moniker immediately (since these weapons can and have been used in an assault role, not just "personal defence") and just call them "micro-rifles" or "sub-rifles," since these PDWs were designed to be effective short-range armour-piercers while using a platform even smaller than mainstay carbines. And no, the PP-2000 and the like are just SMGs loaded with penetrator-containing rounds, since the rounds they use weren't designed from the ground-up to be armour-piercing, unlike the PDW cartridges were. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 19:56, 20 August 2012 (CDT)
+PDW is a sales term that means whatever the salesmen decide it means; there is no fixed definition of what kind of weapon you can call a PDW and it's been applied to SMGs, carbine rifles firing completely normal intermediate rounds, and even ''handguns''. The 6mm bullet is an intermediate round (it's short but weighs ''more'' than a 5.56mm bullet) and so this is a compact carbine. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:28, 24 August 2012 (CDT)
+:As should have been obvious to those salespeople, any weapon can be used "defensively" (which is kind of funny because the P90 has generally NOT been issued to second-line troops, even as they come under increasing terrorist, insurgent, and "I thought he was green" fire, but to CQB assault or VIP protection teams). That's why I believe terms like micro- or sub-rifles would be more descriptive than something as vague as "PDW." And while 6x35mm is too long for a handgun that loads into the grip, I'd say that it's still too short to be a full-fledged intermediate cartridge (those dimensions make me wonder why they didn't go to 6.5x39mm Grendel instead). Sure, the WWII Germans began the intermediate cartridge era with 7.92x33mm, but that was more an act of desperation than anything else--I'm sure they would have gone with a longer length to increase effective range had development started earlier. As for weighing more than 5.56mm rounds, there are heavier ones available, and it's not that big an achievement since 5.56mm rounds are so narrow for their length. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:59, 24 August 2012 (CDT)
+::Ok, the 6x35mm isn't too short for an intermediate cartridge.  Look at .300 Blackout (7.62x35mm).  [[User:Jeddostotle7|Jeddostotle7]] 23:49, 24 August 2012 (CDT)
+::Intermediate rounds can be pretty stumpy; 4.7x33mm caseless is an intermediate, and as you say so is the 7.92x33mm Kurz. Trying to put something between intermediate and pistol sort of ignores that everything between pistol and rifle is intermediate. Besides, it's all of 4 millimetres away from 39mm, and you can hardly say 39mm isn't intermediate unless you think the AK series are actually all SMGs. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:38, 25 August 2012 (CDT)
+::Another thing to bear in mind is that out of a 10" barrel this cartridge produces more muzzle energy than a 5.56x45mm NATO as it is designed specifically to be used on SBRs. The round is designed to burn the majority of the powder whilst the bullet is still within the barrel meaning that very little energy is lost, as opposed to on more powerful rounds, such as the Grendal you suggested, where not all the powder will have burnt by the time the bullet leaves the barrel meaning a lot of potential energy is wasted. I believe that out of a 10" barrel both round have the same muzzle energy (maybe even slightly more on the 6x35mm) but the deal breaker is the fact that the KAC round has less recoil making it more controllable.  --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:45, 25 August 2012 (CDT)
+I think the line between pistol cartridge and rifle cartridge (or something looking to achieve rifle-like velocities and penetration at close range, at least) has to be drawn ''somewhere.'' I would think that a 30mm case length would be the case, because that's already pushing the limit of what can go in a service handgun grip like the HK UCP, or a firearm that loads those cases into a pistol grip, like the HK MP7A1. Besides, wasn't .300 Blackout originally a "special purpose cartridge" designed for optimal subsonic performance? And isn't it fairly easy to have more muzzle energy than typical 5.56mm NATO rounds out of a short-range barrel (you could go with the new Mk. 262 rounds, for instance)? I still would move to call these shorter intermediate rounds "sub-rifle" rounds because of their optimization with compact weaponry and their design objectives to duplicate rifle velocities and rifle-level armour-penetration at short ranges. -[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] ([[User talk:Mazryonh|talk]]) 00:44, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
+:There isn't a line, it's a matter of common sense. Everything between a pistol cartridge and a rifle cartridge is an intermediate cartridge. Please stop trying to make us invent an entire new class of ammunition. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 04:29, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
+:But what determines something to be "compact weaponry"?  The STG 44, M16, and AK47 are all more compact than the rifles of their time, which would put them in the new sub rifle category.  I mean would you consider a HK53 a PDW since it shoots a bullet that is classified as intermediate, or smaller than rifle but larger than pistol cartridge, and has an 8 inch barrel?  If not why?  Just because ballistics technology has improved and new technology is better at preventing loss of energy then it was when the gun was developed.  It just seems like there is no practical way to say that one weapon is a PDW where another weapon is a compact assault rifle, even if you go by case length then the first widely used assault rifle would be the STG 44 with a 33mm case length, meaning that the case length would need to be smaller than that in order to differentiate intermediate vs sub gun, which would put this gun out of the sub gun category. [[User:Dover500|Dover500]] ([[User talk:Dover500|talk]]) 12:31, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
+I'm sure we can all agree that 6x35mm or .300 BLK or 8mm Kurz are at the "lower" end of intermediate. And what I would call a "sub-rifle" (mainly to get rid of the "PDW" nonsense) isn't solely a function of its barrel length but also the characteristics of its cartridge and what design objectives a firearm was made to fulfill (mainly the penetration of Level IIIA armour or lower). But if you want to know what I consider a firearm (chambered in an assault/battle rifle cartridge)is according to its barrel length, here's a summary below:
+*17 inches or more (such as the [[M16_rifle_series#M16A4_Rifle|M16A4]], the [[FN FAL]] or the [[Kar98k]]): Full-size rifle, though I would prefer that 20 inches or more is the ballpark figure for a full-size rifle and a barrel length of 17 inches to below 20 inches be designated a "long carbine."
+*14-16 inches (such as the [[M4A1]], the [[G36K]], the [[AK-74]], etc.): "Standard" Carbine.
+*12-14 inches (such as the [[Tavor_TAR-21_rifle_series#IMI_Micro_Tavor_MTAR-21|MTAR-21]], the [[FN_SCAR#FN_SCAR-H|SCAR-H CQC]]): Compact Carbine.
+*Less than 12 inches (such as [[M16_rifle_series#CQB-R_.2F_Mk._18_Mod_0|CQB-R]], the [[G36C]], the [[AKS-74U]], etc.): Ultracompact Carbine.
+I didn't have to "invent" a new class of ammunition; the manufacturers of the [[P90]], the [[MP7]], the [[KAC PDW]], the [[Saab Bofors Dynamics CBJ-MS|CBJ-MS]], the Indian [[Modern Sub Machine Carbine]] etc. already did! And one thing all of those have in common are standard barrel lengths that fall into what I defined as the "Ultracompact carbine" category above. Another thing is that the cartridges, largely being miniaturized versions of rifle cartridges, are intended to duplicate the armour-piercing performance of rifle cartridges from a shorter barrel length (which is why I call them SUB-rifle cartridges). To me that's enough of a distinction to separate them from the larger intermediate cartridges. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] ([[User talk:Mazryonh|talk]]) 03:06, 9 September 2012 (EDT)
+:We're not going to do this, please stop talking about it. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 06:40, 9 September 2012 (EDT)
+Getting the classifications here to change wasn't my intention. But it does help to put PDWs into perspective if you think of them in the ways I've illustrated.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] ([[User talk:Mazryonh|talk]]) 19:09, 9 September 2012 (EDT)
+:The PDW was basically an attempt by the gun industry to revive flagging subgun sales caused by the rise of bad guys wearing body armour. Turned out sticking AP ammo in subguns wasn't as good an idea as using carbine rifles, which is why they haven't really had all that much success. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 21:31, 9 September 2012 (EDT)
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Talk:Knight's Armament PDW: Difference between revisions

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Classification of this weapon

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