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Talk:Saab Bofors Dynamics CBJ-MS: Difference between revisions
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Anyone who's interested about this weapon's peculiar caliber can read about it on the weapon's official website [http://www.cbjtech.com/sida.asp?sida=2_6.5x25%20CBJ%20Ball&niva=1 here]. The company claims that the standard ball loading (an APDS--armour-piercing, discarding sabot--round carrying a 4mm tungsten penetrator in a plastic sabot) is enough to penetrate the skin of helicopters and the weaker parts of APCs, as well as virtually any body armour type within 300 metres. Whether or not you believe the hype and the company's claims that this caliber is the perfect solution for CQB small arms such as pistols, SMGs/PDWs, and compact assault rifles, is up to you. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 19:02, 28 March 2012 (CDT) | Anyone who's interested about this weapon's peculiar caliber can read about it on the weapon's official website [http://www.cbjtech.com/sida.asp?sida=2_6.5x25%20CBJ%20Ball&niva=1 here]. The company claims that the standard ball loading (an APDS--armour-piercing, discarding sabot--round carrying a 4mm tungsten penetrator in a plastic sabot) is enough to penetrate the skin of helicopters and the weaker parts of APCs, as well as virtually any body armour type within 300 metres. Whether or not you believe the hype and the company's claims that this caliber is the perfect solution for CQB small arms such as pistols, SMGs/PDWs, and compact assault rifles, is up to you. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 19:02, 28 March 2012 (CDT) | ||
:Right, because the first thing I think of when I see a Mini Uzi is "I wish I could shoot through a BMP with this." Does this thing's foregrip, like, slide forward or something? Or is it at least easily removed? Because in this configuration it looks incredibly uncomfortable. [[User:Krakydak|Krakydak]] 14:39, 29 March 2012 (CDT) | :Right, because the first thing I think of when I see a Mini Uzi is "I wish I could shoot through a BMP with this." Does this thing's foregrip, like, slide forward or something? Or is it at least easily removed? Because in this configuration it looks incredibly uncomfortable. [[User:Krakydak|Krakydak]] 14:39, 29 March 2012 (CDT) | ||
:::No, according to the various photos on the website, you can't move the foregrip forward or swing it out. It's supposed to be used in the same manner as the [[XM25]]'s "foregrip": you wrap your fingers around it but not your thumb. The foregrip on the CBJ-MS is also supposed to hold an extra magazine (for some reason, never mind how unergonomic it appears to be).--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:32, 30 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
:: I don't see penetrating the rear armour of Russian APCs as a great accomplishment, but that's if you have a rifle. An SMG, color me doubtful.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 19:54, 29 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
:::It sounds like they let the designer's son describe it. It probably also has an extended clip attachment and optional quickdraw perk. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:14, 29 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
Well for all the hype has it ever been Independantly tested or is it like "Blended Metal" bullets? Even if it can penatrate like it claims it means that the round is a one trick pony. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 20:44, 29 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
:I do notice the APC they tested on was an obsolete MT-LB (a vehicle only designed for protection against small arms fire and shell splinters anyway, so they're evaluating against the latest in 1960s Soviet crew protection technology) they somehow imagined a vehicle driver was going to be within 100 metres of the rear of (since, you know, PDWs are usually marketed as crew weapons). Real-life battle scenario there, not. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:34, 30 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
::Considering that on the website there's a picture of one of these with a bipod and 100-round snail drum mag, I doubt "real life battle scenarios" were in mind when they designed it. [[User:Krakydak|Krakydak]] 13:35, 30 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
:I believe that's a helical mag, not a snail drum. It looks too long (in terms of the dimension parallel to the barrel) to be a snail drum, which is normally only a little longer than a single round's length. And I'll admit, the bipod looks to be a silly addition, because it goes against an SMG's/PDW's purpose of being compact and portable. | |||
:And no, 6.5x25mm rounds are not "blended metal." The only metal part of the 6.5x25mm cartridge's projectile is the 4mm tungsten penetrator. The outer casing is plastic (according to the website this choice of material was made to minimize friction and thus overheating with the barrel, though I hope they chose a heat-resistant plastic because it's game over if you try to fire a round and melted plastic from an overheated barrel is obstructing the bore). There are other types of ammunition available if you peruse the rest of the website, including a more conventional solid brass "High Energy Transfer" projectile, a copper-jacketed tungsten penetrator loaded to subsonic velocities (the website claims this is for sniper use, though the small case length and powder charge probably won't make it go far), and a frangible version. Despite all the bells and whistles, I think the APDS ball round is going to run into the same problems man-portable flechette-using firearms have all run into--an insufficient stopping-power-per-individual-round ratio due to the penetrator's narrow diameter (which means less tissue crushed in its path). Unless they make a longer-barrelled platform for this round, the effective range for the non-APDS rounds is only 50 meters. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:32, 30 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
::No by blended Metal I mean like the LeMas rounds that turned out to be lightweight varmit bullets given a molly coat and them claimed to be Blended Metal bullets that could cut through armor like a blowtorch and litterally blow up in flesh. You can read more [http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888 Here.] | |||
:::Well, one hopes it at least doesn't run into the issue that SPIW ran into when they found out that while the round goes through steel at 90 degrees just fine, it has so little momentum that it will happily deflect off anything it strikes at an angle. Either SALVO or SPIW found that their bullets were glancing off leaves and even ''raindrops''. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:23, 31 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
::They will probably have the same issues that plagued the Steyr ACR- when the sabots exit the barrel, they're still going fast enough that when they seperate from the actual projectile/bullet, they retain enough velocity to cause serious injuries/death. Not the best weapon to have when firing in close quarters or around your buddies. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 13:12, 31 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
Actually, I don't think the 6.5x25mm APDS rounds will run into the same ''deflection'' problems that the flechettes used by Project SPIW (which gave us the M203 grenade launcher) and Project SALVO did. Tungsten is a pretty dense element, and has a lot of mass for its size due to its density (better than lead, comparable to uranium and gold, surpassed only by iridium and osmium which are both exceedingly rare) so I'm positive the tungsten penetrators will have enough momentum to bypass what flechettes couldn't. What I'm concerned about is whether or not the 4mm-wide tungsten penetrators will offer enough ''stopping power''. A 4mm penetrator isn't going to destroy much human tissue on impact or leave a large hole to bleed out from. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:45, 31 March 2012 (CDT) | |||
Latest revision as of 04:45, 1 April 2012
Information about this weapon's unique caliber
Anyone who's interested about this weapon's peculiar caliber can read about it on the weapon's official website here. The company claims that the standard ball loading (an APDS--armour-piercing, discarding sabot--round carrying a 4mm tungsten penetrator in a plastic sabot) is enough to penetrate the skin of helicopters and the weaker parts of APCs, as well as virtually any body armour type within 300 metres. Whether or not you believe the hype and the company's claims that this caliber is the perfect solution for CQB small arms such as pistols, SMGs/PDWs, and compact assault rifles, is up to you. --Mazryonh 19:02, 28 March 2012 (CDT)
- Right, because the first thing I think of when I see a Mini Uzi is "I wish I could shoot through a BMP with this." Does this thing's foregrip, like, slide forward or something? Or is it at least easily removed? Because in this configuration it looks incredibly uncomfortable. Krakydak 14:39, 29 March 2012 (CDT)
- No, according to the various photos on the website, you can't move the foregrip forward or swing it out. It's supposed to be used in the same manner as the XM25's "foregrip": you wrap your fingers around it but not your thumb. The foregrip on the CBJ-MS is also supposed to hold an extra magazine (for some reason, never mind how unergonomic it appears to be).--Mazryonh 21:32, 30 March 2012 (CDT)
- I don't see penetrating the rear armour of Russian APCs as a great accomplishment, but that's if you have a rifle. An SMG, color me doubtful.--Mandolin 19:54, 29 March 2012 (CDT)
- It sounds like they let the designer's son describe it. It probably also has an extended clip attachment and optional quickdraw perk. Evil Tim 20:14, 29 March 2012 (CDT)
Well for all the hype has it ever been Independantly tested or is it like "Blended Metal" bullets? Even if it can penatrate like it claims it means that the round is a one trick pony. Rockwolf66 20:44, 29 March 2012 (CDT)
- I do notice the APC they tested on was an obsolete MT-LB (a vehicle only designed for protection against small arms fire and shell splinters anyway, so they're evaluating against the latest in 1960s Soviet crew protection technology) they somehow imagined a vehicle driver was going to be within 100 metres of the rear of (since, you know, PDWs are usually marketed as crew weapons). Real-life battle scenario there, not. Evil Tim 02:34, 30 March 2012 (CDT)
- Considering that on the website there's a picture of one of these with a bipod and 100-round snail drum mag, I doubt "real life battle scenarios" were in mind when they designed it. Krakydak 13:35, 30 March 2012 (CDT)
- I believe that's a helical mag, not a snail drum. It looks too long (in terms of the dimension parallel to the barrel) to be a snail drum, which is normally only a little longer than a single round's length. And I'll admit, the bipod looks to be a silly addition, because it goes against an SMG's/PDW's purpose of being compact and portable.
- And no, 6.5x25mm rounds are not "blended metal." The only metal part of the 6.5x25mm cartridge's projectile is the 4mm tungsten penetrator. The outer casing is plastic (according to the website this choice of material was made to minimize friction and thus overheating with the barrel, though I hope they chose a heat-resistant plastic because it's game over if you try to fire a round and melted plastic from an overheated barrel is obstructing the bore). There are other types of ammunition available if you peruse the rest of the website, including a more conventional solid brass "High Energy Transfer" projectile, a copper-jacketed tungsten penetrator loaded to subsonic velocities (the website claims this is for sniper use, though the small case length and powder charge probably won't make it go far), and a frangible version. Despite all the bells and whistles, I think the APDS ball round is going to run into the same problems man-portable flechette-using firearms have all run into--an insufficient stopping-power-per-individual-round ratio due to the penetrator's narrow diameter (which means less tissue crushed in its path). Unless they make a longer-barrelled platform for this round, the effective range for the non-APDS rounds is only 50 meters. --Mazryonh 21:32, 30 March 2012 (CDT)
- No by blended Metal I mean like the LeMas rounds that turned out to be lightweight varmit bullets given a molly coat and them claimed to be Blended Metal bullets that could cut through armor like a blowtorch and litterally blow up in flesh. You can read more Here.
- Well, one hopes it at least doesn't run into the issue that SPIW ran into when they found out that while the round goes through steel at 90 degrees just fine, it has so little momentum that it will happily deflect off anything it strikes at an angle. Either SALVO or SPIW found that their bullets were glancing off leaves and even raindrops. Evil Tim 03:23, 31 March 2012 (CDT)
- No by blended Metal I mean like the LeMas rounds that turned out to be lightweight varmit bullets given a molly coat and them claimed to be Blended Metal bullets that could cut through armor like a blowtorch and litterally blow up in flesh. You can read more Here.
- They will probably have the same issues that plagued the Steyr ACR- when the sabots exit the barrel, they're still going fast enough that when they seperate from the actual projectile/bullet, they retain enough velocity to cause serious injuries/death. Not the best weapon to have when firing in close quarters or around your buddies. --ColonelTomb 13:12, 31 March 2012 (CDT)
Actually, I don't think the 6.5x25mm APDS rounds will run into the same deflection problems that the flechettes used by Project SPIW (which gave us the M203 grenade launcher) and Project SALVO did. Tungsten is a pretty dense element, and has a lot of mass for its size due to its density (better than lead, comparable to uranium and gold, surpassed only by iridium and osmium which are both exceedingly rare) so I'm positive the tungsten penetrators will have enough momentum to bypass what flechettes couldn't. What I'm concerned about is whether or not the 4mm-wide tungsten penetrators will offer enough stopping power. A 4mm penetrator isn't going to destroy much human tissue on impact or leave a large hole to bleed out from. --Mazryonh 23:45, 31 March 2012 (CDT)