Talk:Payback: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 01:09, 19 April 2023

Model 27/28 vs. Model 29

Smith & Wesson Model 29 with 4" barrel. Note the larger cylinder and the heavy bull barrel.

S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman with 4" barrel, dull blue finish and Rubber Combat Grips. Note the shorter cylinder and the very visible forcing cone. Also note the tapered barrel

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The pawn shop owner hands Porter a Smith & Wesson Model 29 from off the rack. His lack of gun safety is pretty obvious as he hands him the gun with the hammer cocked and his finger on the trigger.Edit: Note the brighter blue finish, the heavier barrel and the large cylinder that fills the frame.

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Smith & Wesson Model 28 topstrap

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Smith & Wesson Model 27 topstrap. Note the checkering.

Notice the difference between the cylinders. The forcing cone is very visible on the Model 27. The cylinder is shorter on the Model 27 and the barrel has a distinct taper on the 27. It does appear that Gibson is using a Model 27 when he is shooting up into the Asian gang's vehicle but it's a Model 29 at the beginning of the movie.Now it could be argued that he's using a Model 28 since the 28 does have the plain top strap like the Model 29. But the Modell 28 is just a plain jane version of the Model 27 with a matte blue finish. All the other previously described features still apply.The revolver used by Porter (at least in the beginning) has a bright blue glossy finish. Another mark of the earlier Model 29 revolver. --Jcordell 20:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

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In this shot, note the diameter of the cylinder and bore. This is .357 without a doubt. So maybe both were used? This shot and the one in the hotel (where you can see hollowpoins) are my defenders on the ID. - Gunmaster45

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Porter shoots Val in Rosie's (Maria Bello) house.

I agree. But look at this screencap. That's a 44 diameter bore and a heavy bull barrel. No taper. Lets look at this another way. When he surpises the detectives he takes their revolvers. Is that Model 27 the revolver that he takes from Bill Duke's character? Does he pick up the Model 27/28 later on after he dumps the 29? --Jcordell 01:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It's probably a 29 snubnose, because thats what was used in Point Blank, the movie this one is a remake of. User:jackbel

Urm, even the snub Model 29 still has a 'bull' barrel, not tapered. What's more, a 4" Model 29 was used in Point Blank, not a Snub. StanTheMan 21:49, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

I'm trying to figure out whether the Model 28 is really used to stand-in for the Model 29 in some of the scenes that are screencapped on the page (e.g., when Porter hands the revolver to Detective Leary outside of Carter's office). My impression is that it is not. The evidence that GunMaster45 cited on the page (many years ago now) is based entirely on bore size, which (as I've learned repeatedly over the years) is never an accurate way to assess the caliber of a firearm in movies/TV series. As far as I can tell, Porter uses the Model 29 up until he starts using the Beretta that he took from Val Resnick, but then uses the Model 28, which he obtains from Stegman prior to the shootout with the Triads. Also, the gun in Detective Hicks' holster, which we currently list as another Model 29 (sans the S&W combat grips used on Porter's gun) is more likely the Model 28 being re-used. I don't think that there are any gun-related continuity errors here. -MT2008 (talk) 15:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Model 27 vs. model 28

You're right. These two revolvers are pratical identical except for finish and the mark "Highway Patrolman" on the right side of the M28. But I think that the movie gun is an M27. - Charly Driver

I belive that it's a Model 27/28 that Gibson is using when he's shooting up into the carload of Asian gangbangers. The cylinders looks shorter and the barrel appears to have a distinctive taper. But it's a Model 29 that he buys from the pawnshop at the beginning of the movie. --Jcordell 18:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the M29 (I built the first version of the complete page I had chosen this revolver), I was talking of the gun scene of the Chinese gunfight. - Charly Driver

Then you and I are on the same sheet of music. Why don't you create another listing for the Model 27 for the sequence when Porter is shooting it out with the Asians? Seems only right that you should do it since you started the page. --Jcordell 18:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I ask sorry but I don't understand English very well, what do you mean to create another listing? - Charly Driver

You have a category for the Model 29 in which there are screencaps of the Model 29 being used. You should go ahead and make another category or heading showing the Model 27/28 being used. That way the Model 27 will be on the Table of Contents.--Jcordell 00:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

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S&W Model 27 with 4".

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S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman with 4" bl.

Background Check at pawn shop

this movie is loosely based on a book set in 1967, before the Gun Control Act of 1968. Therefore there is no background check and very little if any paperwork. Also there are some "shady" pawn shops that will sell a firearm with no paperwork because they know the weapon is hot or has a history. However this leads to the idea that the Beretta 92FS Val uses can't be used then since it wasn't manufactured at that time. He would be using a Beretta 951.

- Uh, there are several guns in this film that are newer than 1967. Whatever the book might say, this page is about the film, which clearly set in contemporary 1999. Your other explanation regarding a 'shady' pawn shop explains that point well enough by itself. StanTheMan 00:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

According to the commentary on the DVD the film was set essentially inside its own world with no clear date or location. The filmmakers intended the setting to have a 70s feel to it without explicitly placing it in the 70s, and were going for a New York style setting despite filming in Chicago with little attempt to disguise the fact. All the guns featured in the film, with a few exceptions, were available in the 70s or the first couple years of the 80s. Overall it is better not to sweat the small details and just enjoy the film (which is one of my personal favorites). -Anonymous

Contrary to the DVD commentary, there are some hints that the film does in fact take place in the late-1970s or early-1980s. The first is the well-known use of rotary telephones throughout the film (no touch-tones, which didn't become commonplace until well into the 1980s). The second is the fact that the victim of Porter's identity theft has a driver's license which indicates that he was born in 1940 - if the film was set in 1999, that would make him 59 years old, but the actor is clearly no older than late-30s/early-40s. On the other hand, I acknowledge that if the film does take place in the late-70s or early-80s, that would mean it's full of anachronisms (not only in the choice of firearms, which includes Beretta and Glock pistols not widely available in the U.S. until after 1985, but also the various 1980s and 1990s cars seen in the background of the film). -MT2008 (talk) 15:08, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Headshot using pillow

I don't believe the pillow is to muffle the shot, but more to keep from getting splattered with blood and brains. I've done something similar when putting down hogs at my uncles farm, we'd throw a burlap bag over it before shooting it to keep from getting blood on our clothes.

Not me. I use a pillow all the time to keep human brains and blood from splattering all over me. Don't we all?!?!?!?!

Comments

I think this article has improved greatly following the removal of many of the snarky comments about gun handling mistakes in the film. Just in case anyone was planning to replace them I though I'd post a statement by MoviePropMaster concerning this issue:

I recently had the unpleasant experience of having some of the performers being insulted in some of our movie pages see what some of the IMFDB members write. there are some pretty condescending remarks regarding horrible grips, gun stance, bad gun discipline and blinking while shooting. I'm trying to promote the website and it's embarrassing to see actors getting insulted for pretty trivial reasons. What are your thoughts regarding this?

See below:

I'm asking all members to stop with the sarcastic comments in the screencap descriptions. Too many members feel it's funny to be extremely sarcastic about actor's shooting stance, their blinking, their pistol grips. Only if it's so over the top as for the average person to notice, then don't keep on harping on it. Most actors are given only a bare amount of time to train, if at all. Many times the editor picks the worst take for pistol grip, but best take for other reasons like acting. Also much of the blame falls on the director. Some directors don't want to be bothered trying to train the actors and don't allow us armorers to even give them more training than the minimum safety training. People in the industry check out this website, and some think we're a bunch of obnoxious kids. I am not happy when people in 'the biz' look at the site and scoff at the snarky remarks. Some of them are the actual actors being insulted. We can always put in criticism, but IMFDB members going forward going to criticize a film, should try to do so in a scholarly manner or not at all. Thanks for your cooperation MoviePropMaster2008 05:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

This particular article previously had derogatory comments accompanying nearly every screencap and the improvement since has been remarkable. -Anonymous

It's still pretty bad, is it the place of contributors here to criticize the handling of the weapons by the actors? The constant childish mocking of the sideways grip is more embarrassing to see than the grip itsself. --Toadvine 06:01, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Toadvine, did you see the article before? I was the one that removed most of the unnecessary comments, I left the "horrible gangsta grip", because that's what it is, horrible. I wouldn't call it constant either, looks to me like it's mentioned twice.--Predator20 18:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow, we've clean up SO MUCH of the obnoxious commentary on IMFDB and this new member Toadvine is offended by what we have left. His brain would have exploded if he became a member of the site a year ago. :D For the record, I despise obnoxious commentary. Need I state that one of the strongest defenders of obnoxious commentary was himself an extremely obnoxious member whose maturity had to be called into consideration when contemplating his approval of insulting descriptions. Of course, now because of his example, I have no compunction about banning members who drop profanity laced tirades at the drop of a hat. We don't have to bear that for any reason. LOL I have become even less tolerant of jerk behavior. :) best regards to all and keep up the good work! MoviePropMaster2008 06:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Who did you ban?

Back to the revolver controversy.....

I noticed while looking around that you guys were uncertain about which Smiths were used in the movie. First of all, a Model 27/28 was definitely used in a handful of shots, as you can clearly see the barrel taper. Second, judging by cylinder size, I think that every instance of a Smith without a taper (and those fancy wood finger groove grips) is a Model 19, not a Model 29. The gun just looks a bit to small to be an N Frame in the non-tapered pictures.

As far as the .44 diameter bore argument goes, I've got a Model 19 here and I can tell you, in certain light, the curve on the tip of the bore casts a shadow, making the bore look bigger than it is, so identifying the bore size on a blued Smith is a little tricky and can't really prove anything. I don't mean to be rude, just giving my two cents worth. Yournamehere 22:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Who doesn't love a good controversy? I have to disagree with you. I don't believe it's a Model 19. The ejector rod housing on the N frame is heavier and thicker than the housing on the K frame Model 19. Of course that's just my opinion. However it's always fun to debate with another fan of revolvers. --Jcordell 22:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I tell you what, I just took another look at it and the gun has a hammer spur seen on N frames, so it's more than likely a Model 25 or 29. Yournamehere 05:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Could be a 29 or a 25. --Jcordell 06:22, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

There was an article in Gun World magazine in the 90s called Shoot for Effect by John Fasano. Mr. Fasano is/was a screenwriter (Another 48 Hrs is mentioned in the article) as well as writing articles for gun magazines. This article was on Stembridge Gun Rentals and had a few pictures of the prop guns used in popular movies, for example - Pacino's Colt Officer's ACP in Heat, John Wayne's Colt and Winchester from Stagecoach as well as Mel Gibson's S&W Model 29 used in Payback. It's a closeup left side shot of the gun. The article is found in a downloadable pdf file on the net. Not sure if I'm allowed to post links on this site or not, or I would.

Incidentally--

-- It's not that remarkable that Porter isn't shown purchasing ammunition at the pawn shop. I've been in a lot of pawn shops that, while selling firearms, did not carry any ammunition at all in the shop. In some states or cities, it's apparently illegal for them to do so. Atypicaloracle

No S&W 27 Section?

After all this time and debate, no one has created a separate Model 27/28 entry? I know the main gun is a Model 29 but it is obvious a .357 N-frame was used in at least one screencap. I personally don't see the reason for debate about whether the 29 was there or not (because it is), but I also don't see why the other gun is noted in it's own section as it is there. After all, gun switches, even between more similar variants such as SIG P220 series guns and Berettas are noted with their own individual sections. I think there should be another section, rather than just a note stating there was a Model 27 used in the Model 29 listing. I'd be happy to make the section if no one objects. StanTheMan 21:35, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

Bah, well, no objections so I'm making the separate sections now. I'm going with a specific ID of Model 28 for the second gun as in two of the screencaps (The ones where Gibson/Porter has it on Pearl) it has the tapered barrel but lacks the topstrap checkering. Hope it looks alright. Of course anyone just revert it back but I hope this will put an end to this nonsense. (Or make new nonsense, either way :P) EDIT - The more I look at the screencaps, the more I figure that the 'show' gun that he buys is a real Model 29, and they use the mostly similar Model 28 in most of the firing sequences (Most particularly the taxi/alley fight) StanTheMan 19:43, 13 July 2011 (CDT)

I think nobody responded to you because we were still burned out from all the energy we expended those eight years ago. Wow eight years. Where did the time go? --Jcordell (talk) 19:21, 24 January 2017 (EST)

Yeah I get what you mean. Hell, my own query here was some 5 and a half years ago and I almost forgot all about it.. Bah! StanTheMan (talk) 01:41, 25 January 2017 (EST)

Stembridge auction pistols

[1]

For your edification and use, this page is from the big Stembridge Armory auction that sold off the Payback and Lethal Weapon movie gun, among many others.

Might be better to just have the link, that said, lets try this - [2]. Also, sign your posts with 4 of these (~) next time. StanTheMan (talk) 13:36, 8 June 2014 (EDT)

It appears that one of the Model 29s from this movie was re-sold in an auction in 2017 (see this link). I intend to add pictures from the auction in the near future. Also, according to the auctioneer, the grips on the revolver were customized by Peter Orr. I note also that the Model 29 in the auction went for $1,600, which is four times what Porter pays for it in the movie! (Recall: "I'll give you nine hundred for this." "Five hundred, and the gun.") -MT2008 (talk) 19:43, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Jeez, I must be such an idiot that I forgot to upload the pics when I made this comment last year. Well, they're on the page now. -MT2008 (talk) 21:06, 8 November 2020 (EST)

Murtaugh's S&W Model 19 from Lethal Weapon?

Among the guns seen on the pawn shop wall, one of them looks exactly like the rubber-gripped Model 19 used by Gibson's co-star Danny Glover who played Murtaugh in the Lethal Weapon films. I'd like to confirm and if this is so note it on the main page -

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Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 magnum. This is the actual Screen used Movie firearm - a custom ported Smith & Wesson Model 19 with black rubber grips, used and carried by Danny Glover in the film Lethal Weapon

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On the upper right.

StanTheMan (talk) 22:48, 25 June 2015 (EDT)

Haven't really heard any of the armorers confirm (either in open sources, or my own conversations with any of them), but we do know that Stembridge Gun Rentals supplied all weapons used in both Lethal Weapon and this movie, so it's at least possible that this is the same revolver in both films. A general rule in this business if that if you see a gun in two different productions which has a unique identifying feature, and/or you know that the same armorer/armory provided the weapons for both movies, then it's probably the same gun in both. -MT2008 (talk) 01:08, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 : Urm, even the snub Model 29 still has a 'bull' barrel, not tapered. What's more, a 4" Model 29 was used in Point Blank, not a Snub. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:49, 1 July 2011 (CDT)
+:: I'm trying to figure out whether the Model 28 is really used to stand-in for the Model 29 in some of the scenes that are screencapped on the page (e.g., when Porter hands the revolver to Detective Leary outside of Carter's office). My impression is that it is not. The evidence that GunMaster45 cited on the page (many years ago now) is based entirely on bore size, which (as I've learned repeatedly over the years) is never an accurate way to assess the caliber of a firearm in movies/TV series. As far as I can tell, Porter uses the Model 29 up until he starts using the Beretta that he took from Val Resnick, but then uses the Model 28, which he obtains from Stegman prior to the shootout with the Triads. Also, the gun in Detective Hicks' holster, which we currently list as another Model 29 (sans the S&W combat grips used on Porter's gun) is more likely the Model 28 being re-used. I don't think that there are any gun-related continuity errors here. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008|talk]]) 15:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 == Model 27 vs. model 28 ==
@@ Line 45: / Line 47: @@
 :According to the commentary on the DVD the film was set essentially inside its own world with no clear date or location.  The filmmakers intended the setting to have a 70s feel to it without explicitly placing it in the 70s, and were going for a New York style setting despite filming in Chicago with little attempt to disguise the fact.  All the guns featured in the film, with a few exceptions, were available in the 70s or the first couple years of the 80s.  Overall it is better not to sweat the small details and just enjoy the film (which is one of my personal favorites). -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]
+::Contrary to the DVD commentary, there are some hints that the film does in fact take place in the late-1970s or early-1980s. The first is the well-known use of rotary telephones throughout the film (no touch-tones, which didn't become commonplace until well into the 1980s). The second is the fact that the victim of Porter's identity theft has a driver's license which indicates that he was born in 1940 - if the film was set in 1999, that would make him 59 years old, but the actor is clearly no older than late-30s/early-40s. On the other hand, I acknowledge that if the film does take place in the late-70s or early-80s, that would mean it's full of anachronisms (not only in the choice of firearms, which includes Beretta and Glock pistols not widely available in the U.S. until after 1985, but also the various 1980s and 1990s cars seen in the background of the film). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008|talk]]) 15:08, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 == Headshot using pillow ==
@@ Line 91: / Line 95: @@
 :: Bah, well, no objections so I'm making the separate sections now. I'm going with a specific ID of Model 28 for the second gun as in two of the screencaps (The ones where Gibson/Porter has it on Pearl) it has the tapered barrel but lacks the topstrap checkering. Hope it looks alright. Of course anyone just revert it back but I hope this will put an end to this nonsense. (Or make new nonsense, either way :P) EDIT - The more I look at the screencaps, the more I figure that the 'show' gun that he buys is a real Model 29, and they use the mostly similar Model 28 in most of the firing sequences (Most particularly the taxi/alley fight) [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:43, 13 July 2011 (CDT)
+::I think nobody responded to you because we were still burned out from all the energy we expended those eight years ago. Wow eight years. Where did the time go? --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] ([[User talk:Jcordell|talk]]) 19:21, 24 January 2017 (EST)
+::: Yeah I get what you mean. Hell, my own query here was some 5 and a half years ago and I almost forgot all about it.. Bah! [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan|talk]]) 01:41, 25 January 2017 (EST)
+== Stembridge auction pistols ==
+[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Max_Deployment/Guns/gunz_zps92ef6ce6.jpg]
+For your edification and use, this page is from the big Stembridge Armory auction that sold off the Payback and Lethal Weapon movie gun, among many others.
+: Might be better to just have the link, that said, lets try this - [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/Max_Deployment/Guns/gunz_zps92ef6ce6.jpg]. Also, sign your posts with 4 of these (~) next time. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan|talk]]) 13:36, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
+::It appears that one of the Model 29s from this movie was re-sold in an auction in 2017 (see [http://www.icollector.com/S-W-29-2-44-Mag-Used-in-The-Movie-Payback_i27408650 this link]). I intend to add pictures from the auction in the near future. Also, according to the auctioneer, the grips on the revolver were customized by Peter Orr. I note also that the Model 29 in the auction went for $1,600, which is four times what Porter pays for it in the movie! (Recall: ''"I'll give you nine hundred for this." "Five hundred, and the gun."'') -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008|talk]]) 19:43, 10 February 2019 (EST)
+:::Jeez, I must be such an idiot that I forgot to upload the pics when I made this comment last year. Well, they're on the page now. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008|talk]]) 21:06, 8 November 2020 (EST)
+== Murtaugh's S&W Model 19 from Lethal Weapon? ==
+Among the guns seen on the pawn shop wall, one of them looks exactly like the rubber-gripped Model 19 used by Gibson's co-star [[Danny Glover]] who played Murtaugh in the ''[[Lethal Weapon]]'' films. I'd like to confirm and if this is so note it on the main page -
+[[Image:S&W Mod19 LethalWeapon.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 magnum.  This is the actual Screen used Movie firearm - a custom ported Smith & Wesson Model 19 with black rubber grips, used and carried by [[Danny Glover]] in the film ''[[Lethal Weapon]]'' ]]
+[[File:Payback-p38a.jpg|thumb|none|600px|On the upper right.]]
+[[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan|talk]]) 22:48, 25 June 2015 (EDT)
+:Haven't really heard any of the armorers confirm (either in open sources, or my own conversations with any of them), but we do know that Stembridge Gun Rentals supplied all weapons used in both ''[[Lethal Weapon]]'' and this movie, so it's at least possible that this is the same revolver in both films. A general rule in this business if that if you see a gun in two different productions which has a unique identifying feature, and/or you know that the same armorer/armory provided the weapons for both movies, then it's probably the same gun in both. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008|talk]]) 01:08, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Payback: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 01:09, 19 April 2023

Model 27/28 vs. Model 29

Model 27 vs. model 28

Background Check at pawn shop

Headshot using pillow

Comments

Back to the revolver controversy.....

Incidentally--

No S&W 27 Section?

Stembridge auction pistols

Murtaugh's S&W Model 19 from Lethal Weapon?

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