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Talk:KS-23: Difference between revisions
Slow Rider (talk | contribs) (New page: I would note that the barrel of caliber 23 mm was taken from the aircraft or antiaircraft guns. Currently, police do not use this shotgun - because it was too heavy ~~~~) |
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=KS-23K= | |||
[[File:KS-23K.jpg|thumb|right|400px|KS-23K - 23x75mm R]] | |||
In 1995, a new box magazine-fed bullpup version, the KS-23K, was developed for use by the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs. The KS-23K is a rather mysterious model; in fact, aside from using the same ammunition, it is technically unrelated to the original KS-23. KS-23K reloaded by pump action, by means of a cylindrical forearm with one traction under the barrel. Since this mechanism is poorly visible, this has led to widespread misconceptions that it is supposedly a semi-auto or pump-action with a moving barrel. No further information on the production and use of the KS-23K exists, and it was likely that the KS-23K remained a prototype weapon, and its production was discontinued. | |||
Parallel to the KS-23K, [[TsKIB SOO]] developed their own 23mm box magazine fed shotgun, known as the [http://weaponland.ru/load/drobovik_oc_28/43-1-0-166 OTs-28]. The OTs-28 also did not enter service, because it was more expensive to produce than the KS-23K. The third contender for replacement was the AEK-965 (essentially an analogue of the KS-23M, but in a more ergonomic design), but it also was not accepted. | |||
=Additional Images= | |||
[[File:Ks23stockless.jpg|thumb|none|400px|KS-23M without stock - 23x75mm R]] | |||
[[File:Cowaduty.jpg|thumb|none|500px|KS-23M with a synthetic stock and an OTs-06 «Koshka» harpoon attachment.]] | |||
=Discussion= | |||
I would note that the barrel of caliber 23 mm was taken from the aircraft or antiaircraft guns. Currently, police do not use this shotgun - because it was too heavy [[User:Slow Rider|Slow Rider]] 09:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC) | I would note that the barrel of caliber 23 mm was taken from the aircraft or antiaircraft guns. Currently, police do not use this shotgun - because it was too heavy [[User:Slow Rider|Slow Rider]] 09:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC) | ||
== How accurate would one of these be? == | |||
Considering it has a rifled barrel and typically fires slugs, would it be as accurate as a rifle? The only reason I would think it wouldn't be is because the bullet might be too heavy to travel very far accurately. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 00:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
*World.guns.ru gives ranges in the region of 100-200 yards for it. I'd guess it's just the recoil that fucks with you; it's only a little over a pound heavier than a loaded M4 firing a round over four times the calibre. Also, the barrel isn't exactly huge in terms of calibre-length; the KS-23's is 22 calibres long, an M4's barrel is 66. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 08:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
Is an early KS-23 (apparently, a photo from the test). All early KS-23s were with scopes, besides, says that there were even bipods for them. It was probably originally supposed to be something like a sniper slugster on steroids. Who knows what they were thinking then? | |||
I also want to say about one detail, which probably only few people know - the KS-23 has a forend latch-"switch", which should fixed the closed bolt, and which must be manually turned off and later on, when you pumping. As I recall, it is specifically to prevent receiver problems from recoil. But in fact, there are more problems from it - because of it, only trained person can use KS-23, since when somebody try to pump a shotgun with an activated latch, it will simply jam it. | |||
In addition, the first KS-23 was an ordinary 12-gauge shotgun (it apparently did not survive; probably it was just a clone of Winchester 1200), but it was considered "not powerful enough", which led to KS-23. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 17:54, 25 May 2019 (EDT) | |||
[[Image:Ks 23 test.jpg|thumb|none|500px|An early scoped KS-23. Note the wooden furniture.]] | |||
== KS-23K == | |||
So... how does it work? I mean, there's no way that the gripped portion of the barrel could be a pump handle, so is it semi-auto, or what? [[User:Pyr0m4n14c|Pyr0m4n14c]] ([[User talk:Pyr0m4n14c|talk]]) 20:09, 4 April 2017 (EDT) | |||
:Magic, cause no one really knows how to. The KS-23K was only designed to make reloading easier, cause stuffing 6 gauge shells into a tube is a bit hard. Many sources say that the MVD uses it, but there is nothing concrete and I would guess they use the standard model instead. I'm seeing some being touted as semi-auto while others are saying it's the same action backed up Groza style, which really terrifies me. --[[User:PaperCake|PaperCake]] 22:34, 4 April 2017 (EST) | |||
::Dunno to what extend we can trust the sources. [http://modernfirearms.net/shotgun/rus/ks-23-e.html This] says that the KS-23K didn't really see use, and [http://books.google.com/books?id=npHP9aV5rBgC this] (page 337) states that the KS-23M never appeared in the hands of troops and that it accepts a grenade launcher called "Cheremuka-7". (and fun fact, [http://www.securityarms.com/firearm/4527 this] incorrectly states that the KS-23K is the only pump-action one while the others are semi-auto lol) --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 17:46, 30 April 2017 (EDT) | |||
:::KS-23M is issued to law enforcement agencies and saw much usage, while KS-23K really wasn't put in service for being unreliable. All versions of KS-23 are pump action, not semi auto. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 01:31, 1 May 2017 (EDT) | |||
::::Bringing the initial question back to life, maybe the pistol grip slides forward like on the Czech Vz.59 or Finnish KVKK machine guns?--[[User:AgentGumby|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby|talk]]) 23:04, 26 December 2017 (EST) | |||
:::::I think the most likely is that you operate it by racking the carry handle, it looks to be in about the right place. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 23:57, 26 December 2017 (EST) | |||
::::::Another theory for the mysteries of KS-23K operation: perhaps the barrel / action is a group that can move inside the gun like with the AN-94, so you use that grip at the front to pump the entire barrel back and forth. Of course the most likely way to make that work would be to fire from an open bolt, eject on the rearward stroke and retain the bolt back there to strip, chamber and fire when you pull the trigger. If that's how it works, no wonder it wasn't very reliable. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 03:04, 27 October 2018 (EDT) | |||
:::::::I also think that the barrel of the KS-23K just pumped by itself. On another note, given that there are as many as two well-known photos of this, and both from the 90s, there is every reason to believe that it was a single/few of the prototype(s), which is considered a unsuccessful, and later was discontinued and abandoned. By the way, I did not find any information about whether even the usual KS-23 is still being produced, and how many have been done. What is leads to my second assumption that it is likely KS-23 maybe is don't produced now (it's admit that not so much is needed to saturate the arsenals - given that the KS-23 was actually rather unsuccessful, and was rare was used). So apparently available now were produced in the 90s or at least 2000s. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 16:17, 5 August 2019 (EDT) | |||
OK, this is actually a kind of cousin of the [[Ithaca Mag-10 "RoadBlocker"]]. KS-23 for its main purpose is more likely a grenade launcher; and this was intended to use as the lethal weapon for shooting the buckshot only in the last place. His civilian sales have completely failed, due to the bulkiness, low-capacity, and extremely rare ammo. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 15:00, 7 January 2018 (EST) | |||
Latest revision as of 20:41, 19 August 2021
KS-23K
In 1995, a new box magazine-fed bullpup version, the KS-23K, was developed for use by the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs. The KS-23K is a rather mysterious model; in fact, aside from using the same ammunition, it is technically unrelated to the original KS-23. KS-23K reloaded by pump action, by means of a cylindrical forearm with one traction under the barrel. Since this mechanism is poorly visible, this has led to widespread misconceptions that it is supposedly a semi-auto or pump-action with a moving barrel. No further information on the production and use of the KS-23K exists, and it was likely that the KS-23K remained a prototype weapon, and its production was discontinued.
Parallel to the KS-23K, TsKIB SOO developed their own 23mm box magazine fed shotgun, known as the OTs-28. The OTs-28 also did not enter service, because it was more expensive to produce than the KS-23K. The third contender for replacement was the AEK-965 (essentially an analogue of the KS-23M, but in a more ergonomic design), but it also was not accepted.
Additional Images
Discussion
I would note that the barrel of caliber 23 mm was taken from the aircraft or antiaircraft guns. Currently, police do not use this shotgun - because it was too heavy Slow Rider 09:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
How accurate would one of these be?
Considering it has a rifled barrel and typically fires slugs, would it be as accurate as a rifle? The only reason I would think it wouldn't be is because the bullet might be too heavy to travel very far accurately. That's One Angry Duck 00:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- World.guns.ru gives ranges in the region of 100-200 yards for it. I'd guess it's just the recoil that fucks with you; it's only a little over a pound heavier than a loaded M4 firing a round over four times the calibre. Also, the barrel isn't exactly huge in terms of calibre-length; the KS-23's is 22 calibres long, an M4's barrel is 66. Vangelis 08:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Is an early KS-23 (apparently, a photo from the test). All early KS-23s were with scopes, besides, says that there were even bipods for them. It was probably originally supposed to be something like a sniper slugster on steroids. Who knows what they were thinking then?
I also want to say about one detail, which probably only few people know - the KS-23 has a forend latch-"switch", which should fixed the closed bolt, and which must be manually turned off and later on, when you pumping. As I recall, it is specifically to prevent receiver problems from recoil. But in fact, there are more problems from it - because of it, only trained person can use KS-23, since when somebody try to pump a shotgun with an activated latch, it will simply jam it.
In addition, the first KS-23 was an ordinary 12-gauge shotgun (it apparently did not survive; probably it was just a clone of Winchester 1200), but it was considered "not powerful enough", which led to KS-23. --Slon95 (talk) 17:54, 25 May 2019 (EDT)
KS-23K
So... how does it work? I mean, there's no way that the gripped portion of the barrel could be a pump handle, so is it semi-auto, or what? Pyr0m4n14c (talk) 20:09, 4 April 2017 (EDT)
- Magic, cause no one really knows how to. The KS-23K was only designed to make reloading easier, cause stuffing 6 gauge shells into a tube is a bit hard. Many sources say that the MVD uses it, but there is nothing concrete and I would guess they use the standard model instead. I'm seeing some being touted as semi-auto while others are saying it's the same action backed up Groza style, which really terrifies me. --PaperCake 22:34, 4 April 2017 (EST)
- Dunno to what extend we can trust the sources. This says that the KS-23K didn't really see use, and this (page 337) states that the KS-23M never appeared in the hands of troops and that it accepts a grenade launcher called "Cheremuka-7". (and fun fact, this incorrectly states that the KS-23K is the only pump-action one while the others are semi-auto lol) --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 17:46, 30 April 2017 (EDT)
- KS-23M is issued to law enforcement agencies and saw much usage, while KS-23K really wasn't put in service for being unreliable. All versions of KS-23 are pump action, not semi auto. Greg-Z (talk) 01:31, 1 May 2017 (EDT)
- Bringing the initial question back to life, maybe the pistol grip slides forward like on the Czech Vz.59 or Finnish KVKK machine guns?--AgentGumby (talk) 23:04, 26 December 2017 (EST)
- I think the most likely is that you operate it by racking the carry handle, it looks to be in about the right place. Evil Tim (talk) 23:57, 26 December 2017 (EST)
- Another theory for the mysteries of KS-23K operation: perhaps the barrel / action is a group that can move inside the gun like with the AN-94, so you use that grip at the front to pump the entire barrel back and forth. Of course the most likely way to make that work would be to fire from an open bolt, eject on the rearward stroke and retain the bolt back there to strip, chamber and fire when you pull the trigger. If that's how it works, no wonder it wasn't very reliable. Evil Tim (talk) 03:04, 27 October 2018 (EDT)
- I also think that the barrel of the KS-23K just pumped by itself. On another note, given that there are as many as two well-known photos of this, and both from the 90s, there is every reason to believe that it was a single/few of the prototype(s), which is considered a unsuccessful, and later was discontinued and abandoned. By the way, I did not find any information about whether even the usual KS-23 is still being produced, and how many have been done. What is leads to my second assumption that it is likely KS-23 maybe is don't produced now (it's admit that not so much is needed to saturate the arsenals - given that the KS-23 was actually rather unsuccessful, and was rare was used). So apparently available now were produced in the 90s or at least 2000s. --Slon95 (talk) 16:17, 5 August 2019 (EDT)
- Another theory for the mysteries of KS-23K operation: perhaps the barrel / action is a group that can move inside the gun like with the AN-94, so you use that grip at the front to pump the entire barrel back and forth. Of course the most likely way to make that work would be to fire from an open bolt, eject on the rearward stroke and retain the bolt back there to strip, chamber and fire when you pull the trigger. If that's how it works, no wonder it wasn't very reliable. Evil Tim (talk) 03:04, 27 October 2018 (EDT)
- I think the most likely is that you operate it by racking the carry handle, it looks to be in about the right place. Evil Tim (talk) 23:57, 26 December 2017 (EST)
- Bringing the initial question back to life, maybe the pistol grip slides forward like on the Czech Vz.59 or Finnish KVKK machine guns?--AgentGumby (talk) 23:04, 26 December 2017 (EST)
- KS-23M is issued to law enforcement agencies and saw much usage, while KS-23K really wasn't put in service for being unreliable. All versions of KS-23 are pump action, not semi auto. Greg-Z (talk) 01:31, 1 May 2017 (EDT)
- Dunno to what extend we can trust the sources. This says that the KS-23K didn't really see use, and this (page 337) states that the KS-23M never appeared in the hands of troops and that it accepts a grenade launcher called "Cheremuka-7". (and fun fact, this incorrectly states that the KS-23K is the only pump-action one while the others are semi-auto lol) --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 17:46, 30 April 2017 (EDT)
OK, this is actually a kind of cousin of the Ithaca Mag-10 "RoadBlocker". KS-23 for its main purpose is more likely a grenade launcher; and this was intended to use as the lethal weapon for shooting the buckshot only in the last place. His civilian sales have completely failed, due to the bulkiness, low-capacity, and extremely rare ammo. --Slon95 (talk) 15:00, 7 January 2018 (EST)