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Talk:Sherlock Holmes (2009): Difference between revisions
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The great binge lasted until early stage of the 14-18 war, Harrods used to sell gift sets contained cocaine and heroine for front line soldiers. K&P 317 | The great binge lasted until early stage of the 14-18 war, Harrods used to sell gift sets contained cocaine and heroine for front line soldiers. K&P 317 | ||
Gentleman, thank you. I am proposing it as cocaine | Gentleman, thank you. I am proposing it as cocaine based on his general demeanor at the time of Watson discovering him. He was manic, and talked of being awake for some time, focused on tediously accomplishing a task that took hours. Hallmarks of a stimulant. | ||
Thank you sir/madam, that explains. The only medical knowledge I have is a full English breakfast is the best cure for a hangover. A related point to add, heroin as a registered brand name like aspirin of Bayer was taken off as part of the | |||
Treaty of Versailles. K&P 317 | |||
I am a gentleman, I would sign off more often but I have been having trouble accessing my account. An aside you may appreciate, my father passed a few years back and i recently uncovered his box full of pipe smoking kit. My entire life i had no idea he was a pipe smoker, the rest of my family looked at me like i just discovered the sky was blue. | |||
== Winchester 1887 == | == Winchester 1887 == | ||
| Line 50: | Line 55: | ||
That was definately an 1887 Winchester. | That was definately an 1887 Winchester. | ||
Which would be a damned unlikely weapons for the LMP, a 14-gauge Greener-Martini Police Gun or generic 12 gauge side-by-side doubles perhaps. | |||
:It is a Winchester 1887. Will cap it when I can [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] | |||
::Based on only the loading shot of the gun I would agree on the Win. 1887, however when the Metro. Police storm the ceremony hall the profile of the gun appears much too narrow to be that of the '87. So I would somewhat lean towards it being the Greener Police Gun.[[User:RedJedRevolver|RedJedRevolver]] | |||
::I can't get a good screencap, but whatever it is, it has two Baddeley type bands around a single barrel. I'd agree with some variant of Martini-Greener shotgun.--[[User:Big les|Big les]] 18:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC) | |||
:If you look carefully, you can see a plastic shotshell being loaded. Plastic shells were introduced in 1960, whereas in 1890 shells would be either of paper or all brass. --[[User:Maxman|Maxman]] ([[User talk:Maxman|talk]]) 16:27, 25 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Suppressed revolver? == | == Suppressed revolver? == | ||
| Line 56: | Line 67: | ||
:he was also in drugs and extremely bored at the time. | :he was also in drugs and extremely bored at the time. | ||
:You do realize that even a drunk Holmes can make pointless discoveries that no one cares about [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] | :You do realize that even a drunk Holmes can make pointless discoveries that no one cares about [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] | ||
:Not with an NKVD-issued Nagant. The NKVD had specialized Nagant Revolvers made that could be silenced, specifically for assassinations.--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 20:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::All Nagants can be suppressed. The cylinder moves forward, sealing the chamber and barrel. Hence, why a Nagant was used in this scene. --[[User:Maxman|Maxman]] ([[User talk:Maxman|talk]]) 05:21, 22 July 2015 (EDT) | |||
At the time this movie takes place, there was only one or two semis, so, I doubt he'd be using one. Just my two cents. Also: why use an antique you're just gonna butcher up with a mock suppressor when you can use a $50 surplus arm that has saturated the market and no one will miss and only the keenest of keen people will be able to pick out that it was made in the 1940's and post dates the movie by 6 years, but looks the part any way? | |||
==Police sidearms== | ==Police sidearms== | ||
| Line 66: | Line 82: | ||
K&P 317 | K&P 317 | ||
== Counterclockwise? that does not sound really British == | |||
When Holmes was high as a kite and experimenting with the flies, he mentioned they flew in "counterclockwise" formation. I am not a linguistic expert, but a British would say "Anticlockwise" instead. So - here I ask, Was it some different speech habit of 19th centry or just because Robert Downey Jr. came from the States? K&P 317 | |||
::What's interesting is that British 'English' from the 19th century was different than the English (From UK) that we know now. I was laughing when someone pointed out that the BRITISH were the ones who created and used the term "Soccer" for football, not the Americans. In fact it was used almost 50/50 each time the sport was described. Now I'll never criticize "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" again. ;) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC) | |||
==Date== | |||
Lord Blackwood makes a comment that the American Civil War has recently ended, yet many of the weapons featured are from the late 1870's. If I knew more about architecture I could probably pinpoint a year based on the bridge being constructed, but as it stands I am forced to ask if anyone knows what year this film takes place in? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]] | |||
::He may be referring to it as 'recent history' but you're right in that 10-15 years doesn't seem like recent history to most people. I still think of when I was in Gulf War One and then I go OMG! That was 20 !!! years ago! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::It seems like he meant it was recent because he says "The Civil War has left them weak," which by the 1870's and the so-called "Guilded Age" was not true, and by the late 1870's when some of the film's weapons were made, reconstruction had ended. In order for his statement to be justified it seems it would have to be in the late 1860's to the first few years of the 1870's after we had demobilized our war-time army yet were still recovering from the war. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]] | |||
It would have to be 1892 or so, since part of it takes place on an Unfinished Tower Bridge. I've seen pictures of it in different stages of construction and Tower Bridge in 1892 looks the closest to how it looks in this film. | |||
:The newspapers are dated 1891. --[[User:Maxman|Maxman]] ([[User talk:Maxman|talk]]) 22:39, 31 July 2017 (EDT) | |||
Or Lord Blackwood thought that the American goverment was inept and Americans were a pushover.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 12:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC) | |||
:His exact words are "as corrupt and ineffective as our own", meaning he doesn't hold the British government in a particularly high light, either. --[[User:Maxman|Maxman]] ([[User talk:Maxman|talk]]) 22:39, 31 July 2017 (EDT) | |||
==Police weapons== | |||
As this film clearly shows, British police were not always unarmed. Does anyone know why the hell the British ever thought it was a good idea to disarm their cops. (FYI, parts of Britian still have huge crime problems including alot of violent crime.) | |||
Aside from the fact the Metropolitan police was not originally armed when it was formed to counter fears about armed enforcers. Also, never assume a film is factually accurate. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 17:17, 21 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
This film speaks the truth, up to the point that in 1891 when this film is set London police could be issued firearms (as the main article states). However, this was up to personal preference and the use of firearms declined due to lack of an actual need to carry them until the 1930s when they were officially retired. There was a rise in police firearms carry in the 50s and 60s after a number of unarmed officers were shot and killed, when about 17% of London officers were armed. However, after this there were a number of cases of civilian deaths from police firearms, and since then police firearms regulations have been severely tightened and in this day, about 7% of The Met are armed. In short, to answer your question of when British police were disarmed, they never were as they were never really armed.--[[User:Commando552|Commando552]] 22:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Thank you for the specific informaiton. | |||
It's always surprised me that the first official modern police force in the world went from having guns to none, to getting them back, to utter giving them crap while the police forces in other parts of the world like the US had seen an escalation of firearms to counter the growing crime rates. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 14:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Especially because certian areas of Britain have very high violent crime rates too. | |||
==New Sherlock== | |||
Has anyone seen that new Sherlock Holmes on the BBC? I saw a few guns in the last episode, looks like a SIG P226 though I might be wrong. If anyone has the DVD I would appreciate them checking and replying. Cheers; --[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 18:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
I've seen it. Set in 2010. It's a good show, but it appears all the handguns are "non-guns". Non firing replicas though they have working parts. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 19:58, 9 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
Oh, OK. The guns were in shadows so it was hard to tell. Thanks anyway;--[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 21:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
Holmes' pistol was referred as a L9A1 by Prof. M., i.e. standard Royal Army issue of Browning HP. | |||
(Jolly crossed by Holmes ditched the pipe and wearing nicotine patches.) | |||
K&P317 | |||
I think Watson also carried a SIG. | |||
I made an article on it. Go [[Sherlock|here]].--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 04:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
==Adlers revolver== | |||
Now, i admit i'm not an expert on guns.... However, i have to say there is no way that the revolver Irene Adler uses is a Colt New Line 38 caliber revolver. just compare it to the resin/rubber stunt gun. they're nothing alike at all. Adlers gun is double action, whereas the colt new line clearly is a single action, not to mention Adlers gun has a foldable trigger, and the Colt new line doesn't. | |||
If you can identify it feel free and make the changes. That's what imfdb is all about. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 17:22, 20 June 2011 (CDT) | |||
== Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows == | |||
I was thinking maybe we should begin the Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows page. Ive already identified two of the weapons, by watching the trailer. One is the Vickers machinegun and the other is the Mauser Gewehr 1888, used in the forest scenes. What do you guys think ?-G36Ghost | |||
:There is also a C96 pattern pistol held by Downey JR, in one of the posters for the film. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 07:00, 27 October 2011 (CDT) | |||
== Rename? == | |||
Is it possible to re-name it "Sherlock Holmes (2009)" and blank the page? I'm going to do a disambiguation page, similar to [[Three Musketeers (disambiguation)|this one]] but with a few nice things (nothing against the rules of IMFDB), I hope no one will be against... --[[User:Kloga|Kloga]] ([[User talk:Kloga|talk]]) 11:35, 3 January 2014 (EST) | |||
:It seems sensible. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 11:38, 3 January 2014 (EST) | |||
Latest revision as of 02:39, 1 August 2017
I saw the movie and Holmes' attempt to a silenced pistol looked a little bit like either a Nagant revolver or a Chamelot model 1878. The Chamelot makes more sense time wise but the Nagant could still be a possiblity. 98.175.58.228 21:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the gentleman, or lady.
But since the film sets before 'The Adventure of Final Problem', i.e. before 1891 - which means it would be anachronistic for the time for a Nagant Revolver (1895).
That might also explans why Holmes' effort of inventing a 'silencer' for it was fruitless because the escaping propellant gas from the gap of the cylinder and barrel. If there was a Nagant, Holmes would had successed.
And a point to add, 'VR' that Holmes shot onto the wall was the royal cypher of Queen Victoria stands for 'Victoria Regina'. What he did in 'His Las Bow'.
the part the silencer may be a references to Robert Downey, Jr. part in A Scanner Darkly. Rex095
I haven't seen the movie and I'm not likely to for awhile, but the most common Nagant (Russian 1895 in 7.62mm) is by no means the only one (though the only with the gas seal). The first Nagant was the Belgian 1878 and 1884 in 9.4mm, there was the Swedish 1887, Norwegian 1893 and Sewbian models in 7.5mm, the Brazilian and Argentine .44s, the model 1910 (never adopted) even had a swing-out cylinder. - Nyles
confusing
this doesnt have much to do about guns but when they are under big ben and house's of parliment rachael mcadams runs through pipes and gets to tower bridge and downey Jr and lord blackwood follow. surly that would take someone about an hour to get there. they are miles apart. very confusing smish34
That is correct. Thanks to Sir Joseph Bazalgette - they had to chase through the sewage in Victoria embankment (1870). That was more than two miles of running in London Sewer, from the Parliament to Tower Bridge. But I suppose they can't create the climax if the final battle took place on The Westminster Bridge.
Another non-gun related point to make. Being a pipe smoker myself, I am rather upseted by the down-toning of Holmes' pipe smoking habbit because of the changing of social habit of modern days. But at least the choice of pipe used in the film fits with the describition in the novel, a straight-stem 'Old Black Pipe' which could be the same one he smoked in 'The adventure of the creeping man'. Instead of the curved-stem calabash pipe made famous by previous Holmes films, which was introduced by William Gillette - since he found it was difficult to deliver his lines with a straight-stem pipe in his mouth. In all of the Sir Conan Doyle stories, Holmes smoked either a briar, clay or cherrywood pipe.
Also, as you might notice the username of mine is my favourite model of pipe.
K&P 317
- Yeah, but don't forget that in the novels he also injects cocain and heroin frequently. I'm sure Robert Downey Jr. is glad that got taken out, as it probably would've given him some bad flashbacks.--Gunkatas 04:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Holmes never injected heroin.
The liquid he was drinking above the fight club was cocaine, it was a nod to Holmes' drug use. I'm assuming that the producers thought the general public wouldn't approve of a Holmes that did drugs but they wanted to be as accurate as possible, so they had him imbibe cocaine in liquid form for us fans(which was used as an anesthetic at the time)and the general public wouldn't think twice about it. I also really doubt Downey would give much of a fuss.
The gentleman/lady above is correct.
Although the movie did not depict what type of drug Holmes was drinking, Heroin did not exist until 1895, as a registered brand name of the German drug company Bayer. Holmes used cocaine and morphine.
It was legal, even fashionable in upper class to use these kind of recreational drugs in the late Vactorian era, i.e. the Great Binge. All of them could be easily obtained over the counter. Technicly, even the pope were on drugs in those days. Both Pius X and Leo XIII were very fond of vin Mariani, which contains cocaine. Besides, they smoked cigars. (Wish the current pope can be just as cool)
The great binge lasted until early stage of the 14-18 war, Harrods used to sell gift sets contained cocaine and heroine for front line soldiers. K&P 317
Gentleman, thank you. I am proposing it as cocaine based on his general demeanor at the time of Watson discovering him. He was manic, and talked of being awake for some time, focused on tediously accomplishing a task that took hours. Hallmarks of a stimulant.
Thank you sir/madam, that explains. The only medical knowledge I have is a full English breakfast is the best cure for a hangover. A related point to add, heroin as a registered brand name like aspirin of Bayer was taken off as part of the Treaty of Versailles. K&P 317
I am a gentleman, I would sign off more often but I have been having trouble accessing my account. An aside you may appreciate, my father passed a few years back and i recently uncovered his box full of pipe smoking kit. My entire life i had no idea he was a pipe smoker, the rest of my family looked at me like i just discovered the sky was blue.
Winchester 1887
I could have sworn in the beginning of the movie when we see London police prepare themselves in the carriage, one of them was chambering a shell into a shotgun like the 1887. Excalibur01
I thought it was a double-barreled shotgun. Rex095
That was definately an 1887 Winchester.
Which would be a damned unlikely weapons for the LMP, a 14-gauge Greener-Martini Police Gun or generic 12 gauge side-by-side doubles perhaps.
- It is a Winchester 1887. Will cap it when I can Excalibur01
- Based on only the loading shot of the gun I would agree on the Win. 1887, however when the Metro. Police storm the ceremony hall the profile of the gun appears much too narrow to be that of the '87. So I would somewhat lean towards it being the Greener Police Gun.RedJedRevolver
- I can't get a good screencap, but whatever it is, it has two Baddeley type bands around a single barrel. I'd agree with some variant of Martini-Greener shotgun.--Big les 18:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- If you look carefully, you can see a plastic shotshell being loaded. Plastic shells were introduced in 1960, whereas in 1890 shells would be either of paper or all brass. --Maxman (talk) 16:27, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
Suppressed revolver?
For Sherlock Holmes being a smart man, he thought he could invent a suppressor but forgot that suppressors can't won't on revolvers because of the open revolving chamber Excalibur01
- he was also in drugs and extremely bored at the time.
- You do realize that even a drunk Holmes can make pointless discoveries that no one cares about Excalibur01
- Not with an NKVD-issued Nagant. The NKVD had specialized Nagant Revolvers made that could be silenced, specifically for assassinations.--L.J. Gibbs 20:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
At the time this movie takes place, there was only one or two semis, so, I doubt he'd be using one. Just my two cents. Also: why use an antique you're just gonna butcher up with a mock suppressor when you can use a $50 surplus arm that has saturated the market and no one will miss and only the keenest of keen people will be able to pick out that it was made in the 1940's and post dates the movie by 6 years, but looks the part any way?
Police sidearms
This film accurately portrays the London Police as carrying firearms in the late Nineteenth Century. Does anyone know when the British decided to disarm their police force?
London Bobbies on night partols had the option of carrying a Webley & Scott revolver in late 19th Century. And of course firearms were issued when needed, e.g. Siege of Sidney St.
But up to this day the normal bobbies are not armed, they got to call Authorised Firearms Officer (AFO) when extra firepower is needed.
K&P 317
Counterclockwise? that does not sound really British
When Holmes was high as a kite and experimenting with the flies, he mentioned they flew in "counterclockwise" formation. I am not a linguistic expert, but a British would say "Anticlockwise" instead. So - here I ask, Was it some different speech habit of 19th centry or just because Robert Downey Jr. came from the States? K&P 317
- What's interesting is that British 'English' from the 19th century was different than the English (From UK) that we know now. I was laughing when someone pointed out that the BRITISH were the ones who created and used the term "Soccer" for football, not the Americans. In fact it was used almost 50/50 each time the sport was described. Now I'll never criticize "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" again. ;) MoviePropMaster2008 06:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Date
Lord Blackwood makes a comment that the American Civil War has recently ended, yet many of the weapons featured are from the late 1870's. If I knew more about architecture I could probably pinpoint a year based on the bridge being constructed, but as it stands I am forced to ask if anyone knows what year this film takes place in? -Anonymous
- He may be referring to it as 'recent history' but you're right in that 10-15 years doesn't seem like recent history to most people. I still think of when I was in Gulf War One and then I go OMG! That was 20 !!! years ago! MoviePropMaster2008 06:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- It seems like he meant it was recent because he says "The Civil War has left them weak," which by the 1870's and the so-called "Guilded Age" was not true, and by the late 1870's when some of the film's weapons were made, reconstruction had ended. In order for his statement to be justified it seems it would have to be in the late 1860's to the first few years of the 1870's after we had demobilized our war-time army yet were still recovering from the war. -Anonymous
- He may be referring to it as 'recent history' but you're right in that 10-15 years doesn't seem like recent history to most people. I still think of when I was in Gulf War One and then I go OMG! That was 20 !!! years ago! MoviePropMaster2008 06:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
It would have to be 1892 or so, since part of it takes place on an Unfinished Tower Bridge. I've seen pictures of it in different stages of construction and Tower Bridge in 1892 looks the closest to how it looks in this film.
Or Lord Blackwood thought that the American goverment was inept and Americans were a pushover.--Jcordell 12:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- His exact words are "as corrupt and ineffective as our own", meaning he doesn't hold the British government in a particularly high light, either. --Maxman (talk) 22:39, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
Police weapons
As this film clearly shows, British police were not always unarmed. Does anyone know why the hell the British ever thought it was a good idea to disarm their cops. (FYI, parts of Britian still have huge crime problems including alot of violent crime.)
Aside from the fact the Metropolitan police was not originally armed when it was formed to counter fears about armed enforcers. Also, never assume a film is factually accurate. The Wierd It 17:17, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
This film speaks the truth, up to the point that in 1891 when this film is set London police could be issued firearms (as the main article states). However, this was up to personal preference and the use of firearms declined due to lack of an actual need to carry them until the 1930s when they were officially retired. There was a rise in police firearms carry in the 50s and 60s after a number of unarmed officers were shot and killed, when about 17% of London officers were armed. However, after this there were a number of cases of civilian deaths from police firearms, and since then police firearms regulations have been severely tightened and in this day, about 7% of The Met are armed. In short, to answer your question of when British police were disarmed, they never were as they were never really armed.--Commando552 22:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the specific informaiton.
It's always surprised me that the first official modern police force in the world went from having guns to none, to getting them back, to utter giving them crap while the police forces in other parts of the world like the US had seen an escalation of firearms to counter the growing crime rates. Excalibur01 14:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Especially because certian areas of Britain have very high violent crime rates too.
New Sherlock
Has anyone seen that new Sherlock Holmes on the BBC? I saw a few guns in the last episode, looks like a SIG P226 though I might be wrong. If anyone has the DVD I would appreciate them checking and replying. Cheers; --Taurus96 18:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I've seen it. Set in 2010. It's a good show, but it appears all the handguns are "non-guns". Non firing replicas though they have working parts. --Jcordell 19:58, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh, OK. The guns were in shadows so it was hard to tell. Thanks anyway;--Taurus96 21:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Holmes' pistol was referred as a L9A1 by Prof. M., i.e. standard Royal Army issue of Browning HP. (Jolly crossed by Holmes ditched the pipe and wearing nicotine patches.) K&P317
I think Watson also carried a SIG.
I made an article on it. Go here.--PistolJunkie 04:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Adlers revolver
Now, i admit i'm not an expert on guns.... However, i have to say there is no way that the revolver Irene Adler uses is a Colt New Line 38 caliber revolver. just compare it to the resin/rubber stunt gun. they're nothing alike at all. Adlers gun is double action, whereas the colt new line clearly is a single action, not to mention Adlers gun has a foldable trigger, and the Colt new line doesn't.
If you can identify it feel free and make the changes. That's what imfdb is all about. --Jcordell 17:22, 20 June 2011 (CDT)
Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows
I was thinking maybe we should begin the Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows page. Ive already identified two of the weapons, by watching the trailer. One is the Vickers machinegun and the other is the Mauser Gewehr 1888, used in the forest scenes. What do you guys think ?-G36Ghost
- There is also a C96 pattern pistol held by Downey JR, in one of the posters for the film. --Rebusdi 07:00, 27 October 2011 (CDT)
Rename?
Is it possible to re-name it "Sherlock Holmes (2009)" and blank the page? I'm going to do a disambiguation page, similar to this one but with a few nice things (nothing against the rules of IMFDB), I hope no one will be against... --Kloga (talk) 11:35, 3 January 2014 (EST)
- It seems sensible. --Funkychinaman (talk) 11:38, 3 January 2014 (EST)