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Talk:Izhevsk Mechanical Plant: Difference between revisions
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:Well, in my personal opinion, the reasons for this obscurity are commonplace, and come from the fact that, that it wasn't a recognizable original design as all other shotguns, and didn't have [[TOZ]]/[[KBP|MTs]]'s powerfull marketing machine (which worked successfully even under the socialism) backing it up. This is the reason why everyone knows such guns as the MTs-22, despite the fact that they, too, have never been mass-produced. The project actually folded in circa 1979 and was continued about 10 years later as IZh-80/81, but it was already a completely different and much cheaper weapon. That may be said they were at least to some extent successful, enough were made, that you can still find them even now. Another question is that they also had to be exported (which did not happen). I really wonder how they were going to compete with the original Remington. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 14:28, 10 October 2019 (EDT) | :Well, in my personal opinion, the reasons for this obscurity are commonplace, and come from the fact that, that it wasn't a recognizable original design as all other shotguns, and didn't have [[TOZ]]/[[KBP|MTs]]'s powerfull marketing machine (which worked successfully even under the socialism) backing it up. This is the reason why everyone knows such guns as the MTs-22, despite the fact that they, too, have never been mass-produced. The project actually folded in circa 1979 and was continued about 10 years later as IZh-80/81, but it was already a completely different and much cheaper weapon. That may be said they were at least to some extent successful, enough were made, that you can still find them even now. Another question is that they also had to be exported (which did not happen). I really wonder how they were going to compete with the original Remington. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 14:28, 10 October 2019 (EDT) | ||
:IIRC, they offered it to order (as far as one can assume), probably through some of their "internal" channels, but this did not receive much attention. Then it was a different time, and few people understood, "why you need to pull, if you can not pull". Do not forget that most number of the European pumps were then exported altogether, due to the practically absent demand from the inside. This began to change only in the 80s, and real demand came even later, mainly due to the growth of crime and interest in affordable defense weapons, in which the pumps fit in as much as possible. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 09:13, 2 July 2020 (EDT) | |||
: I've removed the listings since I don't believe they merit inclusion and certainly not with them linking to the actual original gun pages. Setting aside the issue of potentially misleading somebody into thinking this plant produces actual Remington shotguns - which they certainly do not - we need proof these copies have actually appeared on anything we have listed to warrant their inclusion, same as any other gun listing. Should that happen I suppose we can list them with links to either new pages for these particular guns or at least new sections on the respective existing gun pages, but until then, I don't think it proper to include them. <BR> EDIT - Reading the page history I see they were included for informational purposes, which I get - But as we've stated before, we're not a gun encyclopedia and should limit ourselves to listing guns that have actually appeared in something, or are at least likely to appear/have appeared. Given how it was stated these are 'very rare' pieces and 'unlikely' to have appeared in anything, again I don't think they merit inclusion on informational value alone. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan|talk]]) 21:28, 5 March 2019 (EST) | : I've removed the listings since I don't believe they merit inclusion and certainly not with them linking to the actual original gun pages. Setting aside the issue of potentially misleading somebody into thinking this plant produces actual Remington shotguns - which they certainly do not - we need proof these copies have actually appeared on anything we have listed to warrant their inclusion, same as any other gun listing. Should that happen I suppose we can list them with links to either new pages for these particular guns or at least new sections on the respective existing gun pages, but until then, I don't think it proper to include them. <BR> EDIT - Reading the page history I see they were included for informational purposes, which I get - But as we've stated before, we're not a gun encyclopedia and should limit ourselves to listing guns that have actually appeared in something, or are at least likely to appear/have appeared. Given how it was stated these are 'very rare' pieces and 'unlikely' to have appeared in anything, again I don't think they merit inclusion on informational value alone. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan|talk]]) 21:28, 5 March 2019 (EST) | ||
::Many IZh shotguns were sold abroad under the Remington brand, so I would not say that this is completely that. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 16:33, 10 March 2019 (EDT) | ::Many IZh shotguns were sold abroad under the Remington brand, so I would not say that this is completely that. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 16:33, 10 March 2019 (EDT) | ||
Latest revision as of 13:13, 2 July 2020
IZh-20/21
There, everything is rather unclear, considering that the documentation (as always) has been lost. IZh-20 appeared in the early 60s, in any case, not earlier than 1963. There is no exact information about it. IZh-21 appeared at the same time as him, and, unlike IZh-20, is better known. There is info that it was produced in small quantities at least until the late 70s. I even saw one of these guns (1971 release) be sold several years ago. --Slon95 (talk) 07:34, 5 March 2019 (EST)
Yep, I have also only found a little bit of info about IZh-21, but nothing on IZh-20. Too bad there are no actual photos or blueprints of those. There are talks IZh-21 was more based on Wichester Model 12 rather than on Remington though. --MaranaInfirmux (talk) 07:43, 5 March 2019 (EST)
- In fact, IZh-21 is on the photo above. Semi-auto IZh-20 is survived on Izhmekh, and this is an analogue of Remington Model 1100. --Slon95 (talk) 07:55, 5 March 2019 (EST)
Interesting, if so, it looks remarkably like Remington 870, right up to the screws placement above the trigger guard. I guess you are right about copying in USSR then. In fact, I feel sorry for that gun - perhaps if put into serial production back then it would make a pump-action shotgun more popular and desirable among Soviet/Russian hunters. Many of them (but not me) still associate pump-actions with all sorts of criminals. --MaranaInfirmux (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2019 (EST)
- MaranaInfirmux, you will laugh, but I came across another advert for the sale of this gun, and very recent. So this is apparently not as rarely as it was thought. --Slon95 (talk) 10:41, 26 March 2019 (EDT)
Hm. I did a quick google sweep, and the only advert for Izh-21 I've found is in fact a misnamed Izh-27 over/under. Or maybe I'm just looking in a wrong place. --MaranaInfirmux (talk) 01:02, 27 March 2019 (EDT)
- Google does not always find what you need. And 21 is often confused with 27 (and vice versa), for unknown reasons. The one I saw was describing the M21. --Slon95 (talk) 11:55, 27 March 2019 (EDT)
- Well, in my personal opinion, the reasons for this obscurity are commonplace, and come from the fact that, that it wasn't a recognizable original design as all other shotguns, and didn't have TOZ/MTs's powerfull marketing machine (which worked successfully even under the socialism) backing it up. This is the reason why everyone knows such guns as the MTs-22, despite the fact that they, too, have never been mass-produced. The project actually folded in circa 1979 and was continued about 10 years later as IZh-80/81, but it was already a completely different and much cheaper weapon. That may be said they were at least to some extent successful, enough were made, that you can still find them even now. Another question is that they also had to be exported (which did not happen). I really wonder how they were going to compete with the original Remington. --Slon95 (talk) 14:28, 10 October 2019 (EDT)
- IIRC, they offered it to order (as far as one can assume), probably through some of their "internal" channels, but this did not receive much attention. Then it was a different time, and few people understood, "why you need to pull, if you can not pull". Do not forget that most number of the European pumps were then exported altogether, due to the practically absent demand from the inside. This began to change only in the 80s, and real demand came even later, mainly due to the growth of crime and interest in affordable defense weapons, in which the pumps fit in as much as possible. --Slon95 (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2020 (EDT)
- I've removed the listings since I don't believe they merit inclusion and certainly not with them linking to the actual original gun pages. Setting aside the issue of potentially misleading somebody into thinking this plant produces actual Remington shotguns - which they certainly do not - we need proof these copies have actually appeared on anything we have listed to warrant their inclusion, same as any other gun listing. Should that happen I suppose we can list them with links to either new pages for these particular guns or at least new sections on the respective existing gun pages, but until then, I don't think it proper to include them.
EDIT - Reading the page history I see they were included for informational purposes, which I get - But as we've stated before, we're not a gun encyclopedia and should limit ourselves to listing guns that have actually appeared in something, or are at least likely to appear/have appeared. Given how it was stated these are 'very rare' pieces and 'unlikely' to have appeared in anything, again I don't think they merit inclusion on informational value alone. StanTheMan (talk) 21:28, 5 March 2019 (EST)