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Talk:Baikal Pump Action Shotgun Series: Difference between revisions
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= Additional Images = | = Additional Images = | ||
[[File:IZH_Shotguns_Family.jpg|thumb|none|400px|A family of Izhmekh pump-action shotguns: IZh-21, IZh-81, IZh-81K, MP-133, IZh-81 "Jaguar", MP-131K.]] | [[File:IZH_Shotguns_Family.jpg|thumb|none|400px|A family of Izhmekh pump-action shotguns: IZh-21, IZh-81, IZh-81K, MP-133, IZh-81 "Jaguar", MP-131K.]] | ||
[[File:MP-135.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Baikal MP-135 - 12 gauge]] | |||
[[File:Ivans Hammer.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Baikal IZh-81KM "Ivan's Hammer" - 12 gauge. It featured a [[Mossberg 500]] pistol grip, and the [[MP5K]] front grip as forearm. These unique weapons were created by C&S Metall-Werkes of St. Charles, MO after soliciting input from several SWAT units. C&S built a trial batch of twelve "Ivan's Hammers". The SWAT teams had requested C&S create a breaching weapon small enough to be practically carried in conjunction with their primary weapon. However, the SWATs also wanted the breaching shotgun to be able to stand on it's own if their primary weapon malfunctioned. After designing the Hammer to exceed those criteria, C&S realized that the cost of the extensive labor necessary to modify the Baikal shotguns exceeded the potential for profitable LE sales and permanently discontinued production of the Hammer.]] | |||
[[File:IZh-80.jpg|thumb|400px|none|IZh-80 with extended magazine tube and folding [[AK-74M]] buttstock - 12 gauge. According to available information, variations with a fixed buttstock, and earlier folding one from the [[AKS-74]] also had to exist.]] | |||
= Discussion = | = Discussion = | ||
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::::I'm not sure if the naming convention is the same, but IL usually denotes the Ilyushin aircraft company. (IL-2, IL-76, etc) --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 08:19, 16 January 2015 (EST) | ::::I'm not sure if the naming convention is the same, but IL usually denotes the Ilyushin aircraft company. (IL-2, IL-76, etc) --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 08:19, 16 January 2015 (EST) | ||
Fair enough, I'll change it. I know zero Russian so used translate, and it seems that any article using the cyrilic gets translated as "IL". To be fair it is not only Google that does this, but the thing that really through me is that the [http://tonnel-ufo.ru/eanglish/weapon/shotgun-berkut-il-81-il-82-baikal-131.php english version of this site] does it as well, but clearly they just plugged their own site into google translate and didn't correct the errors. It doesn't help either that it seems that the majority imported into the US by EAA were the box magazine versions, which leads to a lot of English language sources definitively stating that the IZH-81 has a box mag which is what gave me the impression that this was the different variant. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 13:13, 16 January 2015 (EST) | Fair enough, I'll change it. I know zero Russian so used translate, and it seems that any article using the cyrilic gets translated as "IL". To be fair it is not only Google that does this, but the thing that really through me is that the [http://tonnel-ufo.ru/eanglish/weapon/shotgun-berkut-il-81-il-82-baikal-131.php english version of this site] does it as well, but clearly they just plugged their own site into google translate and didn't correct the errors. It doesn't help either that it seems that the majority imported into the US by EAA were the box magazine versions, which leads to a lot of English language sources definitively stating that the IZH-81 has a box mag which is what gave me the impression that this was the different variant. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 13:13, 16 January 2015 (EST) | ||
:IZh-81L was actually a designation for the IZh-81K with a folding [[AK-74M]] buttstock. Apparently this confusion comes from it (even now). --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 13:16, 3 April 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Also, out of curiosity is the translation of the folding stock variant as the "Fox Terrier" correct, as that seemed like a bizarre name to me at the time. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 13:16, 16 January 2015 (EST) | :Also, out of curiosity is the translation of the folding stock variant as the "Fox Terrier" correct, as that seemed like a bizarre name to me at the time. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 13:16, 16 January 2015 (EST) | ||
::Yes, "Fox Terrier" is a correct name, this version is named after the dog breed. The model with pistol grip and without stock is named "Jaguar". [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 14:09, 16 January 2015 (EST) | ::Yes, "Fox Terrier" is a correct name, this version is named after the dog breed. The model with pistol grip and without stock is named "Jaguar". [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 14:09, 16 January 2015 (EST) | ||
:::It just struck me as a rather odd thing to name it, in particular as it is a pretty British breed. It would be kind of like a British company naming a gun after the Caucasian Ovcharka or Borzoi (actually, Britain is not a great example as all of our current gen military armoured vehicles are named after dog breeds including the husky, but you get what I mean). It seemed particularly random as the smaller pistol grip variant is called the Jaguar which bears absolutely no relation other than they are both mammals (might as well name them the "Suger Glider" and the "Narwhal", that tracks about as well). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 19:34, 16 January 2015 (EST) | :::It just struck me as a rather odd thing to name it, in particular as it is a pretty British breed. It would be kind of like a British company naming a gun after the Caucasian Ovcharka or Borzoi (actually, Britain is not a great example as all of our current gen military armoured vehicles are named after dog breeds including the husky, but you get what I mean). It seemed particularly random as the smaller pistol grip variant is called the Jaguar which bears absolutely no relation other than they are both mammals (might as well name them the "Suger Glider" and the "Narwhal", that tracks about as well). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 19:34, 16 January 2015 (EST) | ||
::::The full-size version was called "Farmer", but this name never popularized. And just as a bonus - the weirdest thing I saw from this gun: [https://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/001278/thm/1278901.jpg]. I read somewhere that it was a special version for export (because in Russia, of course, you cannot legally own a gun of such length). --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 07:03, 6 March 2019 (EST) | ::::The full-size version was called "Farmer", but this name never popularized. And just as a bonus - the weirdest thing I saw from this gun: [https://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/001278/thm/1278901.jpg]. I read somewhere that it was a special version for export (because in Russia, of course, you cannot legally own a gun of such length). --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 07:03, 6 March 2019 (EST) | ||
Latest revision as of 03:06, 16 January 2021
Additional Images
Discussion
It's Izh-81, not IL. Izh-81 is an Izhmekh gun, a direct predecessor of Baikal MP-133. Greg-Z (talk) 02:24, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- The only vaguely comprehensive source I could find about there was this page, which is Russian and seems to refer to them as the IL-81. It does also mention the term IZH-81 but I think what it is saying is that IZH-81 is a designation for the detachable magazine variant. I am not sure this is correct though as I am doing it from a translation though, and also at other point it days that the IL-81 K is the magazine model. Regardless, if you google "IZH-81" it only comes up with image of the model with the detachable box magazine. --commando552 (talk) 04:22, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- EDIT: Here is another Russian source that seems to say that it is the IL-81. --commando552 (talk) 04:22, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- Russian name is "ИЖ-81" as you can see on both pages. "Помповое ружье ИЖ-81 (MP-133)" stands for "Pump action shotgun IZH-81 (MP-133)". Cyrillic for "IL" is "ИЛ". I don't know why google translator uses IL for ИЖ but it's really incorrect. Here is a Russian article in Wikipedia about Izh-81. I can translate it (a little later when I'll have some time). Greg-Z (talk) 08:11, 16 January 2015 (EST) This arcice in EnWiki mention Izh-81. Greg-Z (talk) 08:13, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- But to be fair, if you do a google image search for IZH-81, only the detachable magazine variant comes up. --Funkychinaman (talk) 08:21, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- I get all versions: IZH-81 Images. Greg-Z (talk) 09:06, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- But to be fair, if you do a google image search for IZH-81, only the detachable magazine variant comes up. --Funkychinaman (talk) 08:21, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- Russian name is "ИЖ-81" as you can see on both pages. "Помповое ружье ИЖ-81 (MP-133)" stands for "Pump action shotgun IZH-81 (MP-133)". Cyrillic for "IL" is "ИЛ". I don't know why google translator uses IL for ИЖ but it's really incorrect. Here is a Russian article in Wikipedia about Izh-81. I can translate it (a little later when I'll have some time). Greg-Z (talk) 08:11, 16 January 2015 (EST) This arcice in EnWiki mention Izh-81. Greg-Z (talk) 08:13, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- EDIT: Here is another Russian source that seems to say that it is the IL-81. --commando552 (talk) 04:22, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- Correct title is "IZh" (ИЖ). "Izh" is the first letters of the Izhevsky Zavod (Ижевский завод). Pyramid Silent (talk) 10:47, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- I'm not sure if the naming convention is the same, but IL usually denotes the Ilyushin aircraft company. (IL-2, IL-76, etc) --Funkychinaman (talk) 08:19, 16 January 2015 (EST)
Fair enough, I'll change it. I know zero Russian so used translate, and it seems that any article using the cyrilic gets translated as "IL". To be fair it is not only Google that does this, but the thing that really through me is that the english version of this site does it as well, but clearly they just plugged their own site into google translate and didn't correct the errors. It doesn't help either that it seems that the majority imported into the US by EAA were the box magazine versions, which leads to a lot of English language sources definitively stating that the IZH-81 has a box mag which is what gave me the impression that this was the different variant. --commando552 (talk) 13:13, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- IZh-81L was actually a designation for the IZh-81K with a folding AK-74M buttstock. Apparently this confusion comes from it (even now). --Slon95 (talk) 13:16, 3 April 2019 (EDT)
- Also, out of curiosity is the translation of the folding stock variant as the "Fox Terrier" correct, as that seemed like a bizarre name to me at the time. --commando552 (talk) 13:16, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- Yes, "Fox Terrier" is a correct name, this version is named after the dog breed. The model with pistol grip and without stock is named "Jaguar". Greg-Z (talk) 14:09, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- It just struck me as a rather odd thing to name it, in particular as it is a pretty British breed. It would be kind of like a British company naming a gun after the Caucasian Ovcharka or Borzoi (actually, Britain is not a great example as all of our current gen military armoured vehicles are named after dog breeds including the husky, but you get what I mean). It seemed particularly random as the smaller pistol grip variant is called the Jaguar which bears absolutely no relation other than they are both mammals (might as well name them the "Suger Glider" and the "Narwhal", that tracks about as well). --commando552 (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- The full-size version was called "Farmer", but this name never popularized. And just as a bonus - the weirdest thing I saw from this gun: [1]. I read somewhere that it was a special version for export (because in Russia, of course, you cannot legally own a gun of such length). --Slon95 (talk) 07:03, 6 March 2019 (EST)
- It just struck me as a rather odd thing to name it, in particular as it is a pretty British breed. It would be kind of like a British company naming a gun after the Caucasian Ovcharka or Borzoi (actually, Britain is not a great example as all of our current gen military armoured vehicles are named after dog breeds including the husky, but you get what I mean). It seemed particularly random as the smaller pistol grip variant is called the Jaguar which bears absolutely no relation other than they are both mammals (might as well name them the "Suger Glider" and the "Narwhal", that tracks about as well). --commando552 (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2015 (EST)
- Yes, "Fox Terrier" is a correct name, this version is named after the dog breed. The model with pistol grip and without stock is named "Jaguar". Greg-Z (talk) 14:09, 16 January 2015 (EST)
![[1]](https://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/001278/thm/1278901.jpg){kind=link}