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Talk:Zorro (1975): Difference between revisions
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== Muskets/Carbines == | |||
The major of muskets are the [[Charleville Musket]]s. [[User:Pyramid Silent|Pyramid Silent]] ([[User talk:Pyramid Silent|talk]]) 16:03, 19 March 2016 (EDT) | The major of muskets are the [[Charleville Musket]]s. [[User:Pyramid Silent|Pyramid Silent]] ([[User talk:Pyramid Silent|talk]]) 16:03, 19 March 2016 (EDT) | ||
[[Image:Charleville.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Original Charleville Mle 1763 - .69 caliber]] | [[Image:Charleville.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Original Charleville Mle 1763 - .69 caliber]] | ||
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::As [http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MS1757.SHTML here] wrote, Spanish muskets are variants af French Charleville. [[User:Pyramid Silent|Pyramid Silent]] ([[User talk:Pyramid Silent|talk]]) 16:44, 19 March 2016 (EDT) | ::As [http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MS1757.SHTML here] wrote, Spanish muskets are variants af French Charleville. [[User:Pyramid Silent|Pyramid Silent]] ([[User talk:Pyramid Silent|talk]]) 16:44, 19 March 2016 (EDT) | ||
:::The image posted above is definitely a flintlock, you can see the frizzen (the part that the flint hits which also acts as the pan cover) is open in the above image, something which you do for loading and the gun would actually be unable to fire in this configuration. The spring for the frizzen is also clearly visible, a part which doesn't have an analogue on a caplock. As for the last image I think that this is actually a different gun, as the "hammer" is clearly not holding a flint. I am also not convinced that it is a caplock, as too me it looks like there is too much going on just ahead of the hammer, and also the part that the hammer hits is much higher profile than is typical of a normal percussion cap nipple (there is no need for it to stick out this far and would actually be less effective. To me, this part looks more like a firing pin housing that you get on some cartridge conversion type rifled muskets, for example the [[Snider-Enfield Rifle]]. Is this particular rifle ever shown better to see if it actually has a ramrod, as this might help identify if it is a muzzle loader or not. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 21:38, 19 March 2016 (EDT) | :::The image posted above is definitely a flintlock, you can see the frizzen (the part that the flint hits which also acts as the pan cover) is open in the above image, something which you do for loading and the gun would actually be unable to fire in this configuration. The spring for the frizzen is also clearly visible, a part which doesn't have an analogue on a caplock. As for the last image I think that this is actually a different gun, as the "hammer" is clearly not holding a flint. I am also not convinced that it is a caplock, as too me it looks like there is too much going on just ahead of the hammer, and also the part that the hammer hits is much higher profile than is typical of a normal percussion cap nipple (there is no need for it to stick out this far and would actually be less effective. To me, this part looks more like a firing pin housing that you get on some cartridge conversion type rifled muskets, for example the [[Snider-Enfield Rifle]]. Is this particular rifle ever shown better to see if it actually has a ramrod, as this might help identify if it is a muzzle loader or not. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 21:38, 19 March 2016 (EDT) | ||
::::Here are some additional images. They are not very clear but maybe they would provide any clue. As I can see, all cavalry carbines have the same stock and barrel. If some of them are fitted with flintlock and others with caplock, then maybe these replicas were manufactured with one type of lock and some of them were refitted for the needs of filming (maybe for some other movie, and later reused here). As they doesn't fire, the lock can be replaced without any problems, I think. | ::::Here are some additional images. They are not very clear but maybe they would provide any clue. As I can see, all cavalry carbines have the same stock and barrel. If some of them are fitted with flintlock and others with caplock, then maybe these replicas were manufactured with one type of lock and some of them were refitted for the needs of filming (maybe for some other movie, and later reused here). As they doesn't fire, the lock can be replaced without any problems, I think. | ||
Muskets: | Muskets: | ||
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[[File:Zorro 1975-Carbine-11.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]] | [[File:Zorro 1975-Carbine-11.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]] | ||
Now I see that muskets are of two (at least) different models. A version that is seen in hands of a guard (in white-covered shako) and a lancer in round hat that looks up doesn't resemble Napoleonic era muskets but looks more like a mid-XIX century rifle. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 04:05, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | ::::Now I see that muskets are of two (at least) different models. A version that is seen in hands of a guard (in white-covered shako) and a lancer in round hat that looks up doesn't resemble Napoleonic era muskets but looks more like a mid-XIX century rifle. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 04:05, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | ||
:About muskets: | |||
This is a some variant of charleville (as I wrote earlie, Spainish military used variants of French charlevile): | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Musket-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Soldiers of Sgt. Garcia's unit hold muskets.]] | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Musket-5.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Muskets in stand in barraks.]] | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Musket-9.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Soldiers with muskets try to hold back the crowd.]] | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Musket-12.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]] | |||
:This is clearly NOT a charlevile, but, I can't ID it: | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Musket-11.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]] | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Musket-13.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]] | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Musket-8.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Soldiers take aim at Zorro on the rooftop.]] | |||
:about other - it's not seen clear, so I can't say anymore. [[User:Pyramid Silent|Pyramid Silent]] ([[User talk:Pyramid Silent|talk]]) 07:54, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | |||
::Also, the one of the muskets, hanged on the wall isn't Asian [[Jezail musket|Jezail]], but African [[Kabyle Musket|Kabyle]]. [[User:Pyramid Silent|Pyramid Silent]] ([[User talk:Pyramid Silent|talk]]) 08:03, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | |||
[[File:Zorro 1975-Jezail-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Kabyle Musket at the .]] | |||
[[Image:Kabyle Musket.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Kabyle musket]] | |||
:I don't think they are either, both of those style are ID'd by the shape of the stock, and these muskets both have totally different shaped stocks. They seem to have just a straight grip/strut, similar to an Indian Torador musket but I can't see them well enough to make out if they have the same action (Toradors use a distinctive sort of matchlock). Fyi, another thing that might support this being an Indian weapon is the fact that the two gauntlet/swords to the right are Indian Patas and the shield also appears to be similar to Indian ones. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 11:00, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | |||
::Yes, sure - as I said, the only one musket is Kabyle (that is hanged from down left to up right). Thr another one isn't Kabyle, but I can't ID it. [[User:Pyramid Silent|Pyramid Silent]] ([[User talk:Pyramid Silent|talk]]) 13:02, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | |||
:::Neither of them have a Kabyle style stock, it is just a straight strut that doesn't widen at the shoulder end. I think you are seeing the top corner of the dark grey brickwork behind the gun and thinking that it is the shape of the stock when it isn't. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 15:18, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | |||
== Pistols == | |||
I just noticed, these pistols are really odd[[File:Zorro 1975-Pistol-1.jpg|thumb|600px|none|]]They are clearly percussion pistols as you can tell by the shape of the hammer face and the presence of the nipple, however they appear to be fitted with a cosmetic flint jaws and locking screw, along with a frizzen spring on the side of the lock plate. I assume that they are meant to be mock ups of flintlocks, but this second part is particularly strange as there is no frizzen and I don't know why you would bother adding this relatively nondescript part but leave off the much more obvious frizzen itself. It makes me wonder if these pistols were originally a more convincing and complete mock up which has had the fake frizzen removed to make them easier to load and use. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 22:06, 19 March 2016 (EDT) | |||
:Thanks, it's really interesting. [[User:Greg-Z|Greg-Z]] ([[User talk:Greg-Z|talk]]) 04:05, 20 March 2016 (EDT) | |||
Latest revision as of 00:40, 22 September 2016
Muskets/Carbines
The major of muskets are the Charleville Muskets. Pyramid Silent (talk) 16:03, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
- Also, on this shot the gun is flintlock. And it's seem very similar to Model 1786 Hussar Carbine with removed muzzle yellow part (I don't know, how it's titled). Pyramid Silent (talk) 16:14, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
- The muskets are not Charleville, they are replica guns (when they "fire", the lock doesn't move and only a small grey cloud of smoke appear at the muzzle). I assume the base gun for these replicas to be some Spanish musket of Napoleonic era but as I couldn't find an image of such musket, I put the sample of Charleville for comparison, as I wrote on the page. About the carbine: I think it to be a caplock, not a flintlock but there is some doubt so I'll look again, more carefully. Greg-Z (talk) 16:27, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
- As here wrote, Spanish muskets are variants af French Charleville. Pyramid Silent (talk) 16:44, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
- The image posted above is definitely a flintlock, you can see the frizzen (the part that the flint hits which also acts as the pan cover) is open in the above image, something which you do for loading and the gun would actually be unable to fire in this configuration. The spring for the frizzen is also clearly visible, a part which doesn't have an analogue on a caplock. As for the last image I think that this is actually a different gun, as the "hammer" is clearly not holding a flint. I am also not convinced that it is a caplock, as too me it looks like there is too much going on just ahead of the hammer, and also the part that the hammer hits is much higher profile than is typical of a normal percussion cap nipple (there is no need for it to stick out this far and would actually be less effective. To me, this part looks more like a firing pin housing that you get on some cartridge conversion type rifled muskets, for example the Snider-Enfield Rifle. Is this particular rifle ever shown better to see if it actually has a ramrod, as this might help identify if it is a muzzle loader or not. --commando552 (talk) 21:38, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
- Here are some additional images. They are not very clear but maybe they would provide any clue. As I can see, all cavalry carbines have the same stock and barrel. If some of them are fitted with flintlock and others with caplock, then maybe these replicas were manufactured with one type of lock and some of them were refitted for the needs of filming (maybe for some other movie, and later reused here). As they doesn't fire, the lock can be replaced without any problems, I think.
- The image posted above is definitely a flintlock, you can see the frizzen (the part that the flint hits which also acts as the pan cover) is open in the above image, something which you do for loading and the gun would actually be unable to fire in this configuration. The spring for the frizzen is also clearly visible, a part which doesn't have an analogue on a caplock. As for the last image I think that this is actually a different gun, as the "hammer" is clearly not holding a flint. I am also not convinced that it is a caplock, as too me it looks like there is too much going on just ahead of the hammer, and also the part that the hammer hits is much higher profile than is typical of a normal percussion cap nipple (there is no need for it to stick out this far and would actually be less effective. To me, this part looks more like a firing pin housing that you get on some cartridge conversion type rifled muskets, for example the Snider-Enfield Rifle. Is this particular rifle ever shown better to see if it actually has a ramrod, as this might help identify if it is a muzzle loader or not. --commando552 (talk) 21:38, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
- As here wrote, Spanish muskets are variants af French Charleville. Pyramid Silent (talk) 16:44, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
Muskets:
Carbines:
- About muskets:
This is a some variant of charleville (as I wrote earlie, Spainish military used variants of French charlevile):
- This is clearly NOT a charlevile, but, I can't ID it:
- about other - it's not seen clear, so I can't say anymore. Pyramid Silent (talk) 07:54, 20 March 2016 (EDT)
- Also, the one of the muskets, hanged on the wall isn't Asian Jezail, but African Kabyle. Pyramid Silent (talk) 08:03, 20 March 2016 (EDT)
- I don't think they are either, both of those style are ID'd by the shape of the stock, and these muskets both have totally different shaped stocks. They seem to have just a straight grip/strut, similar to an Indian Torador musket but I can't see them well enough to make out if they have the same action (Toradors use a distinctive sort of matchlock). Fyi, another thing that might support this being an Indian weapon is the fact that the two gauntlet/swords to the right are Indian Patas and the shield also appears to be similar to Indian ones. --commando552 (talk) 11:00, 20 March 2016 (EDT)
- Yes, sure - as I said, the only one musket is Kabyle (that is hanged from down left to up right). Thr another one isn't Kabyle, but I can't ID it. Pyramid Silent (talk) 13:02, 20 March 2016 (EDT)
- Neither of them have a Kabyle style stock, it is just a straight strut that doesn't widen at the shoulder end. I think you are seeing the top corner of the dark grey brickwork behind the gun and thinking that it is the shape of the stock when it isn't. --commando552 (talk) 15:18, 20 March 2016 (EDT)
- Yes, sure - as I said, the only one musket is Kabyle (that is hanged from down left to up right). Thr another one isn't Kabyle, but I can't ID it. Pyramid Silent (talk) 13:02, 20 March 2016 (EDT)
Pistols
I just noticed, these pistols are really odd
They are clearly percussion pistols as you can tell by the shape of the hammer face and the presence of the nipple, however they appear to be fitted with a cosmetic flint jaws and locking screw, along with a frizzen spring on the side of the lock plate. I assume that they are meant to be mock ups of flintlocks, but this second part is particularly strange as there is no frizzen and I don't know why you would bother adding this relatively nondescript part but leave off the much more obvious frizzen itself. It makes me wonder if these pistols were originally a more convincing and complete mock up which has had the fake frizzen removed to make them easier to load and use. --commando552 (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2016 (EDT)