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Talk:Stray Dog: Kerberos Panzer Cops: Difference between revisions
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This series could use a modern reincarnation, if only to reassert itself as the original creator of the Protect Gear which Killzone so obviously cribbed. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:37, 2 September 2011 (CDT) | This series could use a modern reincarnation, if only to reassert itself as the original creator of the Protect Gear which Killzone so obviously cribbed. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:37, 2 September 2011 (CDT) | ||
:I made mention of the fact that the backpack houses a spare barrel (as well as showed Inui changing the barrel out), but there's no reason to add another screenshot showing the exact location of said barrel when there are already 11 images for the MG42 (and you can already see it in the | :I made mention of the fact that the backpack houses a spare barrel (as well as showed Inui changing the barrel out), but there's no reason to add another screenshot showing the exact location of said barrel when there are already 11 images for the MG42 (and you can already see it in the eighth image). As for a "modern incarnation", ''Jin-Roh'' is only 11 years old, and people who don't already realize that ''Killzone'' ripped of Oshii's design would just respond by saying that the new movie was copying ''Killzone''.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 22:19, 2 September 2011 (CDT) | ||
Actually, that screenshot only has one end of the barrel visible. I recommended the "suiting up" moment because it's one of the few moments that both ends of the spare barrel are visible, especially against the white walls of that room (otherwise at least one end just blends in against the dark background of Inui's armour or the hotel's darker walls. Still, perhaps a sentence added to the caption of the eighth screenshot to the tune of "the rear end of the spare MG42 barrel can be seen on Inui's backpack here" would suffice. | |||
Still, another live-action entry in the Kerberos Saga would be nice, though again it should probably not be directed by Oshii (otherwise he adds some really strange stuff), which turns off most viewers (as evidenced in this [http://youtu.be/BoSiaGF--RI video review] of Stray Dog). I'd like to see another "special forces flick" where the special forces are police rather than military, although of course the Capital Police don't really arrest people so much as eradicate the terrorists with extreme force. Even so, the Kerberos Saga deserves another chance at the fame Ghost in the Shell achieved. It could be cool--to the tune of "1200 rounds a minute" cool.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:27, 5 September 2011 (CDT) | |||
:Oshii may have a habit of pushing his auteur license to the limit, but the fact of the matter is that the Kerberos Saga is his baby, conceived by him from manga to radio drama to film to anime, so the idea of him not directing (or at least having creative control a la ''Jin-Roh'') is not something I like the sound of. So what if his material isn't tailored for the masses? The last thing I want to see is a world as well constructed as Oshii's, filled with biting commentary, cryptic symbolism, Avant-garde style and and all of Oshii's creative quirks, winding up in the hands of some Hollywood action director who then turns it into a moronic shoot-'em-up. | |||
:Also, that video reviewer seems to be under a false impression of the film from the get-go and makes a lot of mistakes a video reviewer should never make. He complains about it being misbilled as an action adventure film; Bandai's problem, not Oshii's (to clarify, I made the page and all of the screencaps came from my personal copy of the DVD, which I've watched multiple times). He also has a delivery that's more boring then the slowest parts of an Oshii film (he makes ''The Sky Crawlers'' look thoroughly intense) is a terrible actor (seriously, his review was grating to watch from start to finish), and manages to show an amazing level of ignorance regarding the subject of his review. Had he done so much as a quick Google search (something you really should do before you put your face on the internet to review something), he would have realized that his point about it not acting well as a stand-alone film is weak seeing as it was never meant to be a stand-alone film. It's main purpose was to showcase the immediate outcome of the Kerberos Riot and to show why Commander Inui returned to Japan (meaning he also managed to completely miss the character development whose absence he bitched about) and to explain what the Japanese government thought was in the briefcase in ''The Red Spectacles'', and thus their determination to secure it. | |||
:Oshii has carefully constructed the world of the Kerberos Saga, and undermining its core traits just to gain popularity is kind of short sighted. If nothing else, I believe need ''more'' directors like him (''especially'' in anime right now in this sea of slice-o-life moeblobs) who craft their own unique vision, popular opinion and target audience demographics be damned.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 20:26, 6 September 2011 (CDT) | |||
As someone who has sat through pretty much all of [[Stanley Kubrick]]'s filmography, I can understand what role slower pacing, long scenery shots and the like can play in a film towards creating a good final picture. At the same time, however, even Kubrick didn't segue into such out-of-place strangeness like [http://youtu.be/6Hp9Fpje4Zc this clip] from [[The Red Spectacles]] in his own films; the closest he came to that to my memory would be the "bear suit scene" from ''The Shining'', and even that was put there to emphasize the out-and-out weirdness of the setting. I think even Kubrick learned his lesson after getting burned from ''2001: A Space Odyssey'' about how "a film that is so obtuse as to preclude most audiences from understanding it will not be good for sales or the director's career," but I'm not sure Oshii learned from Kubrick's error, [http://youtu.be/Rnn0Snv5xaI at least not for Stray Dog]. Not everyone who wants to see a film that includes a virtual tour of Taiwan, after all. | |||
I'll admit that I don't have access to the first two films of the Kerberos trilogy aside from a few scattered clips. At the same time however, I can think of a few ways that the "boring bits" mentioned in the review could have been made more interesting in other ways, while simultaneously providing more character development. You could have Inui wake up regularly from nightmares where he relives (and by extension, the viewer sees) his earlier days in the Panzer Cops and we get to see how Koichi and Inui got along during high-risk situations (involving more action), as well as how much of a betrayal Koichi's abandonment of the Panzer Cops was to Inui. You could portray a blooming romance between Tang Mie and Inui, only to see the tragedy of how Inui chooses his job over love (kind of like how Jin-Roh played out, but without the "insurance"). This would maintain audience interest without having to go "lowest common denominator." I would agree that a lot of Japanese media (especially that regularly consumed by non-Japanese) is of the "lowest common denominator" variety, but with a little help (Oshii being in creative control, of course, but without his usual strangeness being overly emphasized) the Kerberos Saga could reach more people and be more popular than ever. | |||
Yep, and the suitcase in The Red Spectacles contained, well, we know the answer already. Was there one for each dead Kerberos member? And why don't we see fully-suited Kerberos members go up against competent opposition? It seems that in Stray Dog and Jin-Roh they only go up against opponents who are hopelessly outmatched or else don't use their weapons properly to hurt the Kerberos members. Even the first [[Robocop]] movie wasn't a clean sweep for the titular cyborg--competent opposition keeps the tension going. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:56, 9 September 2011 (CDT) | |||
:I hate to tell you this, but the fact that you're dissing the movies without seeing them is very foolish. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch?from=Main.ptitlexxpmjrh25rbg Your assuming that these movies are boring and unwatchable through second-hand sources instead of actually watching them and coming to your own conclusion]. We live in the age of Amazon.com and NetFlix; finding copies isn't that difficult. As for the prolonged shots of scenery or busy streets? Those are just as present ''Jin-Roh'' and ''Ghost in the Shell'', and I don't hear you (or any of those videos you keep linking to) whining about those, either. As for that ''Red Spectacles'' clip, two things: yes it's weird, but the main character is completely out of his gourd by this point (the plot actually does make sense if you read past the insane delivery) and you got to admit, seeing a torture technician do a samba is pretty funny. I've shown the film to several of my friends, and even the ones who were completely confused and couldn't figure out what the hell was happening (without me filling them in) still said they got a kick out of the movie. | |||
:As for the suitcase ('''HERE BE SPOILERS''') the Japanese government thought that Inui's Protect Gear (the set he had with him when he escaped) was inside of it, hence their dogged pursuit of him throughout ''The Red Spectacles''. They didn't realize that he had already given it to Koichi and left it in Taiwan after Koichi was killed. | |||
:As for their opponents; the idea is that the Kerberos units ALWAYS have the upper hand in terms of firepower. One unit can take on 10+ opponents before being downed, and a squad can easily overwhelm a far larger force in a short-term engagement. They're government-funded police units with what is essentially low-tech power armor fighting small, poorly-trained resistance groups armed with WWII leftovers. The sheer brutality of their tactics is completely intentional. The Kerberos Squads did eventually face a competent and well trained force; after a 40 day standoff, they lost.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 01:16, 10 September 2011 (CDT) | |||
Latest revision as of 06:16, 10 September 2011
Not a Norinco Type 84S
Try Norinco Type 86S MoviePropMaster2008 23:58, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Fixed. Not sure how that slipped by me. I really need to stop editing after 1 in the morning. So what's the verdict; replicas or no?--PistolJunkie 02:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Where does Inui keep his spare MG42 barrel?
I think at least some mention should be made as to the fact that Inui keeps his alternate MG42 barrel on the top of his ammunition backpack. It's most easily seen when the PSF contact he meets in the abandoned hotel places the alternate barrel on top of his ammunition backpack, but in other scenes it's difficult to pick out amongst the black colour of Inui's Protect Gear. The original creator should post up a screenshot of that particular scene so as to show the the location of the spare MG42 barrel. I am, however, surprised that the spare barrel (or the MG42 itself) wasn't damaged at the time when the PSF "mimes with machine guns" open up on Inui after catching him unawares on a staircase.
This series could use a modern reincarnation, if only to reassert itself as the original creator of the Protect Gear which Killzone so obviously cribbed. --Mazryonh 18:37, 2 September 2011 (CDT)
- I made mention of the fact that the backpack houses a spare barrel (as well as showed Inui changing the barrel out), but there's no reason to add another screenshot showing the exact location of said barrel when there are already 11 images for the MG42 (and you can already see it in the eighth image). As for a "modern incarnation", Jin-Roh is only 11 years old, and people who don't already realize that Killzone ripped of Oshii's design would just respond by saying that the new movie was copying Killzone.--PistolJunkie 22:19, 2 September 2011 (CDT)
Actually, that screenshot only has one end of the barrel visible. I recommended the "suiting up" moment because it's one of the few moments that both ends of the spare barrel are visible, especially against the white walls of that room (otherwise at least one end just blends in against the dark background of Inui's armour or the hotel's darker walls. Still, perhaps a sentence added to the caption of the eighth screenshot to the tune of "the rear end of the spare MG42 barrel can be seen on Inui's backpack here" would suffice.
Still, another live-action entry in the Kerberos Saga would be nice, though again it should probably not be directed by Oshii (otherwise he adds some really strange stuff), which turns off most viewers (as evidenced in this video review of Stray Dog). I'd like to see another "special forces flick" where the special forces are police rather than military, although of course the Capital Police don't really arrest people so much as eradicate the terrorists with extreme force. Even so, the Kerberos Saga deserves another chance at the fame Ghost in the Shell achieved. It could be cool--to the tune of "1200 rounds a minute" cool.--Mazryonh 15:27, 5 September 2011 (CDT)
- Oshii may have a habit of pushing his auteur license to the limit, but the fact of the matter is that the Kerberos Saga is his baby, conceived by him from manga to radio drama to film to anime, so the idea of him not directing (or at least having creative control a la Jin-Roh) is not something I like the sound of. So what if his material isn't tailored for the masses? The last thing I want to see is a world as well constructed as Oshii's, filled with biting commentary, cryptic symbolism, Avant-garde style and and all of Oshii's creative quirks, winding up in the hands of some Hollywood action director who then turns it into a moronic shoot-'em-up.
- Also, that video reviewer seems to be under a false impression of the film from the get-go and makes a lot of mistakes a video reviewer should never make. He complains about it being misbilled as an action adventure film; Bandai's problem, not Oshii's (to clarify, I made the page and all of the screencaps came from my personal copy of the DVD, which I've watched multiple times). He also has a delivery that's more boring then the slowest parts of an Oshii film (he makes The Sky Crawlers look thoroughly intense) is a terrible actor (seriously, his review was grating to watch from start to finish), and manages to show an amazing level of ignorance regarding the subject of his review. Had he done so much as a quick Google search (something you really should do before you put your face on the internet to review something), he would have realized that his point about it not acting well as a stand-alone film is weak seeing as it was never meant to be a stand-alone film. It's main purpose was to showcase the immediate outcome of the Kerberos Riot and to show why Commander Inui returned to Japan (meaning he also managed to completely miss the character development whose absence he bitched about) and to explain what the Japanese government thought was in the briefcase in The Red Spectacles, and thus their determination to secure it.
- Oshii has carefully constructed the world of the Kerberos Saga, and undermining its core traits just to gain popularity is kind of short sighted. If nothing else, I believe need more directors like him (especially in anime right now in this sea of slice-o-life moeblobs) who craft their own unique vision, popular opinion and target audience demographics be damned.--PistolJunkie 20:26, 6 September 2011 (CDT)
As someone who has sat through pretty much all of Stanley Kubrick's filmography, I can understand what role slower pacing, long scenery shots and the like can play in a film towards creating a good final picture. At the same time, however, even Kubrick didn't segue into such out-of-place strangeness like this clip from The Red Spectacles in his own films; the closest he came to that to my memory would be the "bear suit scene" from The Shining, and even that was put there to emphasize the out-and-out weirdness of the setting. I think even Kubrick learned his lesson after getting burned from 2001: A Space Odyssey about how "a film that is so obtuse as to preclude most audiences from understanding it will not be good for sales or the director's career," but I'm not sure Oshii learned from Kubrick's error, at least not for Stray Dog. Not everyone who wants to see a film that includes a virtual tour of Taiwan, after all.
I'll admit that I don't have access to the first two films of the Kerberos trilogy aside from a few scattered clips. At the same time however, I can think of a few ways that the "boring bits" mentioned in the review could have been made more interesting in other ways, while simultaneously providing more character development. You could have Inui wake up regularly from nightmares where he relives (and by extension, the viewer sees) his earlier days in the Panzer Cops and we get to see how Koichi and Inui got along during high-risk situations (involving more action), as well as how much of a betrayal Koichi's abandonment of the Panzer Cops was to Inui. You could portray a blooming romance between Tang Mie and Inui, only to see the tragedy of how Inui chooses his job over love (kind of like how Jin-Roh played out, but without the "insurance"). This would maintain audience interest without having to go "lowest common denominator." I would agree that a lot of Japanese media (especially that regularly consumed by non-Japanese) is of the "lowest common denominator" variety, but with a little help (Oshii being in creative control, of course, but without his usual strangeness being overly emphasized) the Kerberos Saga could reach more people and be more popular than ever.
Yep, and the suitcase in The Red Spectacles contained, well, we know the answer already. Was there one for each dead Kerberos member? And why don't we see fully-suited Kerberos members go up against competent opposition? It seems that in Stray Dog and Jin-Roh they only go up against opponents who are hopelessly outmatched or else don't use their weapons properly to hurt the Kerberos members. Even the first Robocop movie wasn't a clean sweep for the titular cyborg--competent opposition keeps the tension going. --Mazryonh 23:56, 9 September 2011 (CDT)
- I hate to tell you this, but the fact that you're dissing the movies without seeing them is very foolish. Your assuming that these movies are boring and unwatchable through second-hand sources instead of actually watching them and coming to your own conclusion. We live in the age of Amazon.com and NetFlix; finding copies isn't that difficult. As for the prolonged shots of scenery or busy streets? Those are just as present Jin-Roh and Ghost in the Shell, and I don't hear you (or any of those videos you keep linking to) whining about those, either. As for that Red Spectacles clip, two things: yes it's weird, but the main character is completely out of his gourd by this point (the plot actually does make sense if you read past the insane delivery) and you got to admit, seeing a torture technician do a samba is pretty funny. I've shown the film to several of my friends, and even the ones who were completely confused and couldn't figure out what the hell was happening (without me filling them in) still said they got a kick out of the movie.
- As for the suitcase (HERE BE SPOILERS) the Japanese government thought that Inui's Protect Gear (the set he had with him when he escaped) was inside of it, hence their dogged pursuit of him throughout The Red Spectacles. They didn't realize that he had already given it to Koichi and left it in Taiwan after Koichi was killed.
- As for their opponents; the idea is that the Kerberos units ALWAYS have the upper hand in terms of firepower. One unit can take on 10+ opponents before being downed, and a squad can easily overwhelm a far larger force in a short-term engagement. They're government-funded police units with what is essentially low-tech power armor fighting small, poorly-trained resistance groups armed with WWII leftovers. The sheer brutality of their tactics is completely intentional. The Kerberos Squads did eventually face a competent and well trained force; after a 40 day standoff, they lost.--PistolJunkie 01:16, 10 September 2011 (CDT)