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Talk:StG 44: Difference between revisions
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=Additional Images= | |||
[[File:StG 44.jpg|thumb|none|500px|StG 44 - 7.92x33mm Kurz]] | |||
[[file:mp44k.jpg|thumb|none|500px|"StG-44k" - 7.92x33mm Kurz. This is a modern modification of the full-size rifle.]] | |||
[[file:StG-44 Krummlauf.jpg|thumb|none|500px|StG 44 with ''Krummlauf'' barrel attachment - 7.92x33mm Kurz.]] | |||
==Non-firing== | |||
[[File:Denix StG 44 replica.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Denix StG 44 non-firing replica.]] | |||
==Screen-Used== | |||
[[Image:SWBTA280.jpg|thumb|none|500px|StG 44-based BlasTech A295 Blaster as seen in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]] | |||
[[File:StG44-M16-MovieProp.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sturmgewehr 44, modified to resemble an early Armalite AR-15 rifles - 7.62x39 blank. Such movie props were widely used in Soviet movies of 1970s-90s.]] | |||
=Discussion= | |||
== Redirect needed == | == Redirect needed == | ||
| Line 6: | Line 19: | ||
Isn't the H&K G3 a full size Battle rifle, not an assault rifle? | Isn't the H&K G3 a full size Battle rifle, not an assault rifle? | ||
:Well, in German there are no "battle rifles", all of them are considered assault rifles | :Well, in German there are no "battle rifles", all of them are considered assault rifles | ||
::In American parlance, a battle rifle fires a 'full sized cartridge' not an intermediate cartridge like the 5.56x45mm or the 7.62x39mm. The weird thing is that SOME gun historians think of the 7.61x51mm as an intermediate cartridge. These are usually the OLD TIMERS who were brought up firing the 30.06, the 7.92 Mauser, the .303R British and the 7.62x54R ammunition and they look with disdain on any 'smaller cartridge'. There are many firearms authors, though, who consider the 7.62x51mm / .308 Winchester as a full fledged full sized rifle round. For the most part, .308 is a full sized rifle round with most people, so the G3 WOULD be a main battle rifle and NOT an assault rifle, just like the FN FAL, the L1A1 and the M14. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 17:19, 4 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Yeah, but what I wanted to point out: the Sturmgewehr 44 is a German weapon, and it was considered an assault rifle by the Germans (In fact, Hitler invented the German term "Sturmgewehr" to describe the former MP44, and later this term was translated as "assault rifle"). The G3 is a German weapon, too, and it is considered an assault rifle by the Germans. So, both weapons are considered "assault rifles" by the people who invented the term in the first place and who developed both the weapons. | |||
:::So? You are right. The StG-44 (MP44) was the first ASSAULT RIFLE. It was a select fire carbine length rifle firing a new intermediate cartridge. A more perfect definition of an 'assault rifle' cannot be found. So what is the problem here? :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
- Fair enough, however, in general usage/knowledge, 'assault rifles', as MPM said, are considered to fire smaller, 'intermediate' cartridges - either shortened battle rifle rounds (7.92x33 Kurz/7.62x39 M1943) or smaller cartridges all-around (5.56x45/5.45x39), and all with selective-fire. Granted some consider 7.62x51 an 'assault rifle' cartridge, but most others don't. Myself included. And as such, again, in general/common usage, it would not be incorrect to consider the G3 a 'battle rifle'. | |||
Bah, this page, nor this discussion is really about the G3 or the StG44 for that matter. It's about semantics. Which is just annoying and pointless. In any case, lets just remove the G3 part altogether - It'll preclude any further stubborn and inane debates here as well as eliminate any potential confusion for new readers. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 02:39, 6 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
==A silly question in perhaps the wrong place== | |||
Whilst on the subject, would the M1 Carbine be considered an assault rifle due to it's smaller .30 round?[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] 11:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
No, I don't think so. The Carbine was intended to be an extended pistol - something lighter to carry than the M1 or M1903 for officers or weapon specialists, but more range effective even if its less powerful than the .45 pistol. The M2 variant would be closer to an assault rifle on account of its ability for full-automatic fire. [[User:Crackshot|Crackshot]] 12:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
Thanx[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] | |||
::Hmmmm. According to gun control fanatics, anti gun politicians and the local media ... the M1 Carbine is an EVIL nuclear tipped, toddler killing, maniacal 'assault WEAPON' that deserves to be banned from the planet. So depends on who you ask ;) And yes, this question belongs on the M1 Carbine discussion page [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
== names == | |||
So, STG44, MP43, and MP44 all mean the same firearm, they aren't all different variants or anything? MasterHunter96--[[User:MasterHunter96|MasterHunter96]] 19:00, 2 August 2011 (CDT) | |||
:Since a lot of this is common knowledge amongst gun experts, '''google''' STG-44 on wikipedia. There is a nice history of the weapon there. When in doubt "look it up" first. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 22:47, 2 August 2011 (CDT) | |||
== Fake "M16" == | |||
I also wanted to express my long-standing idea, that this rifle were actually mocking more as the [[AR-10]], not M16. -[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 13:15, 27 March 2017 (EDT) | |||
[[File:StG44-M16-MovieProp.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Sturmgewehr 44, visually modified to resemble AR-10 or M16 - 7.62x39 blank. Such movie props were widely used in Soviet movies of 1970s-90s.]] | |||
[[File:Armalite AR-10 Portuguese.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Armalite AR-10, "Portuguese" model - 7.62x51mm NATO]] | |||
[[File:M16A1 Wood Furniture.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom M16A1 with wooden furniture identical to the one in [[Fallout: New Vegas]] - 5.56x45mm NATO]] | |||
:The fact that it's not a very ''good'' M16 doesn't in itself mean that it isn't supposed to be one. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 10:46, 22 January 2018 (EST) | |||
::I write it all for nothing? These props were clearly made based on the AR-10, including the characteristic fake upper charging handles, muzzle brakes and sights. Why? Well, probably, the Soviets did not have access to the newer M-16s for the cinema, to make props based on their model. --[[User:Slon95|Slon95]] ([[User talk:Slon95|talk]]) 11:03, 22 January 2018 (EST) | |||
:::But in several cases (particularly ''Incident at Map Grid 36-80'' and ''The Detached Mission'' where they're being used by US forces, in the latter case with curved magazines) they're clearly supposed to be M16s in the film, so just altering every entry the same way doesn't really work. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 11:50, 22 January 2018 (EST) | |||
:::Just to add: I'm not saying we should throw out everything you just did (after all, you can base an edit on an undo), but we need to come up with a better way of describing it since this is guns mocked up to look like one model being used as stand-ins for two. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 12:00, 22 January 2018 (EST) | |||
::::Why would they mock up a weapon to look like a relatively obscure Dutch rifle manufactured for Portugal, especially as the majority of the time it is depicted as used by US soldiers? The front sight looking more like the Portuguese AR-10s is just coincidence, as all they did with the front sight is machine out the middle of the standard StG-44 one and weld it to the gas block. As for the charging handle, I think this is more just pragmatism as it is pretty much impossible to modify an StG-44 with an M16 style charging handle as opposed to the "AR-10" style which is easy to do by just welding a hook onto the bolt carrier and machining a slot in the top of the receiver (assuming it is functional). The carry handle charging handle is not unique to the AR-10 by the way, it was also used on the [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/ArmaLite_AR-15_SPAR_3240_DEC._17._2004.png early AR-15]s. As for what to call them, we could just say that it is visually modified to resemble an Armalite as either way this will be sort of correct. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 13:00, 22 January 2018 (EST) | |||
== WAW and BO2 STG-44 == | |||
I was looking at comparison with the MP-43, and the STG-44, and I was looking at the World at War version and the Black Ops II version, can you guys help me what the deference between the MP-43 and 44?--[[User:Treliazz777|Treliazz777]] ([[User talk:Treliazz777|talk]]) 23:37, 30 January 2018 (EST) | |||
:this should help: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/evolution-of-the-sturmgewehr-mp431-mp43-mp44-and-stg44/. --[[User:AgentGumby|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby|talk]]) 00:38, 31 January 2018 (EST) | |||
:::Okay, I think the Black Ops II is similar to the MP-44 (STG-44 First Model)--[[User:Treliazz777|Treliazz777]] ([[User talk:Treliazz777|talk]]) 13:11, 31 January 2018 (EST) | |||
::::It would be nice if you said why you thought that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 13:18, 31 January 2018 (EST) | |||
:::::The MP44 have a Wood Grip, and the STG-44 have a Plastic Grip. BO2 STG-44 appears to have a Wood Grip. BO2 STG kinda have a little bit wider like the MP44, but the STG-44 have a Flat Stock--[[User:Treliazz777|Treliazz777]] ([[User talk:Treliazz777|talk]]) 13:39, 31 January 2018 (EST) | |||
::::::No, late SG-44s have a plastic grip, the early ones are wood. His StG-44 there is a late model, it's entirely possible for an early StG-44 to have the features you list. Also the two rifles he's directly comparing are an MP43/1 and an StG44, not an MP44 and an StG-44. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] ([[User talk:Evil Tim|talk]]) 14:19, 31 January 2018 (EST) | |||
:::::::Okay Thanks for telling me that--[[User:Treliazz777|Treliazz777]] ([[User talk:Treliazz777|talk]]) 17:28, 31 January 2018 (EST) | |||
Latest revision as of 05:37, 18 July 2023
Additional Images
Non-firing
Screen-Used
Discussion
Redirect needed
Someone needs to change the redirection page for this entry so that entering "STG-44," or "STG 44," or "stg 44," or "stg-44" will all lead to this page. Isn't STG-44/STG 44 the most commonly-used designation for this assault rifle, for those of us who either don't know or don't want to type out the proper name, Sturmgewehr 44? --Mazryonh 22:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Info part
Isn't the H&K G3 a full size Battle rifle, not an assault rifle?
- Well, in German there are no "battle rifles", all of them are considered assault rifles
- In American parlance, a battle rifle fires a 'full sized cartridge' not an intermediate cartridge like the 5.56x45mm or the 7.62x39mm. The weird thing is that SOME gun historians think of the 7.61x51mm as an intermediate cartridge. These are usually the OLD TIMERS who were brought up firing the 30.06, the 7.92 Mauser, the .303R British and the 7.62x54R ammunition and they look with disdain on any 'smaller cartridge'. There are many firearms authors, though, who consider the 7.62x51mm / .308 Winchester as a full fledged full sized rifle round. For the most part, .308 is a full sized rifle round with most people, so the G3 WOULD be a main battle rifle and NOT an assault rifle, just like the FN FAL, the L1A1 and the M14. MoviePropMaster2008 17:19, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, but what I wanted to point out: the Sturmgewehr 44 is a German weapon, and it was considered an assault rifle by the Germans (In fact, Hitler invented the German term "Sturmgewehr" to describe the former MP44, and later this term was translated as "assault rifle"). The G3 is a German weapon, too, and it is considered an assault rifle by the Germans. So, both weapons are considered "assault rifles" by the people who invented the term in the first place and who developed both the weapons.
- So? You are right. The StG-44 (MP44) was the first ASSAULT RIFLE. It was a select fire carbine length rifle firing a new intermediate cartridge. A more perfect definition of an 'assault rifle' cannot be found. So what is the problem here? :) MoviePropMaster2008 07:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough, however, in general usage/knowledge, 'assault rifles', as MPM said, are considered to fire smaller, 'intermediate' cartridges - either shortened battle rifle rounds (7.92x33 Kurz/7.62x39 M1943) or smaller cartridges all-around (5.56x45/5.45x39), and all with selective-fire. Granted some consider 7.62x51 an 'assault rifle' cartridge, but most others don't. Myself included. And as such, again, in general/common usage, it would not be incorrect to consider the G3 a 'battle rifle'.
Bah, this page, nor this discussion is really about the G3 or the StG44 for that matter. It's about semantics. Which is just annoying and pointless. In any case, lets just remove the G3 part altogether - It'll preclude any further stubborn and inane debates here as well as eliminate any potential confusion for new readers. StanTheMan 02:39, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
A silly question in perhaps the wrong place
Whilst on the subject, would the M1 Carbine be considered an assault rifle due to it's smaller .30 round?Foofbun 11:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
No, I don't think so. The Carbine was intended to be an extended pistol - something lighter to carry than the M1 or M1903 for officers or weapon specialists, but more range effective even if its less powerful than the .45 pistol. The M2 variant would be closer to an assault rifle on account of its ability for full-automatic fire. Crackshot 12:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
ThanxFoofbun
- Hmmmm. According to gun control fanatics, anti gun politicians and the local media ... the M1 Carbine is an EVIL nuclear tipped, toddler killing, maniacal 'assault WEAPON' that deserves to be banned from the planet. So depends on who you ask ;) And yes, this question belongs on the M1 Carbine discussion page MoviePropMaster2008 19:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
names
So, STG44, MP43, and MP44 all mean the same firearm, they aren't all different variants or anything? MasterHunter96--MasterHunter96 19:00, 2 August 2011 (CDT)
- Since a lot of this is common knowledge amongst gun experts, google STG-44 on wikipedia. There is a nice history of the weapon there. When in doubt "look it up" first. :) MoviePropMaster2008 22:47, 2 August 2011 (CDT)
Fake "M16"
I also wanted to express my long-standing idea, that this rifle were actually mocking more as the AR-10, not M16. -Slon95 (talk) 13:15, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
- The fact that it's not a very good M16 doesn't in itself mean that it isn't supposed to be one. Evil Tim (talk) 10:46, 22 January 2018 (EST)
- I write it all for nothing? These props were clearly made based on the AR-10, including the characteristic fake upper charging handles, muzzle brakes and sights. Why? Well, probably, the Soviets did not have access to the newer M-16s for the cinema, to make props based on their model. --Slon95 (talk) 11:03, 22 January 2018 (EST)
- But in several cases (particularly Incident at Map Grid 36-80 and The Detached Mission where they're being used by US forces, in the latter case with curved magazines) they're clearly supposed to be M16s in the film, so just altering every entry the same way doesn't really work. Evil Tim (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2018 (EST)
- Just to add: I'm not saying we should throw out everything you just did (after all, you can base an edit on an undo), but we need to come up with a better way of describing it since this is guns mocked up to look like one model being used as stand-ins for two. Evil Tim (talk) 12:00, 22 January 2018 (EST)
- Why would they mock up a weapon to look like a relatively obscure Dutch rifle manufactured for Portugal, especially as the majority of the time it is depicted as used by US soldiers? The front sight looking more like the Portuguese AR-10s is just coincidence, as all they did with the front sight is machine out the middle of the standard StG-44 one and weld it to the gas block. As for the charging handle, I think this is more just pragmatism as it is pretty much impossible to modify an StG-44 with an M16 style charging handle as opposed to the "AR-10" style which is easy to do by just welding a hook onto the bolt carrier and machining a slot in the top of the receiver (assuming it is functional). The carry handle charging handle is not unique to the AR-10 by the way, it was also used on the early AR-15s. As for what to call them, we could just say that it is visually modified to resemble an Armalite as either way this will be sort of correct. --commando552 (talk) 13:00, 22 January 2018 (EST)
- I write it all for nothing? These props were clearly made based on the AR-10, including the characteristic fake upper charging handles, muzzle brakes and sights. Why? Well, probably, the Soviets did not have access to the newer M-16s for the cinema, to make props based on their model. --Slon95 (talk) 11:03, 22 January 2018 (EST)
WAW and BO2 STG-44
I was looking at comparison with the MP-43, and the STG-44, and I was looking at the World at War version and the Black Ops II version, can you guys help me what the deference between the MP-43 and 44?--Treliazz777 (talk) 23:37, 30 January 2018 (EST)
- this should help: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/evolution-of-the-sturmgewehr-mp431-mp43-mp44-and-stg44/. --AgentGumby (talk) 00:38, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- Okay, I think the Black Ops II is similar to the MP-44 (STG-44 First Model)--Treliazz777 (talk) 13:11, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- It would be nice if you said why you thought that. Evil Tim (talk) 13:18, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- The MP44 have a Wood Grip, and the STG-44 have a Plastic Grip. BO2 STG-44 appears to have a Wood Grip. BO2 STG kinda have a little bit wider like the MP44, but the STG-44 have a Flat Stock--Treliazz777 (talk) 13:39, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- No, late SG-44s have a plastic grip, the early ones are wood. His StG-44 there is a late model, it's entirely possible for an early StG-44 to have the features you list. Also the two rifles he's directly comparing are an MP43/1 and an StG44, not an MP44 and an StG-44. Evil Tim (talk) 14:19, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- Okay Thanks for telling me that--Treliazz777 (talk) 17:28, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- No, late SG-44s have a plastic grip, the early ones are wood. His StG-44 there is a late model, it's entirely possible for an early StG-44 to have the features you list. Also the two rifles he's directly comparing are an MP43/1 and an StG44, not an MP44 and an StG-44. Evil Tim (talk) 14:19, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- The MP44 have a Wood Grip, and the STG-44 have a Plastic Grip. BO2 STG-44 appears to have a Wood Grip. BO2 STG kinda have a little bit wider like the MP44, but the STG-44 have a Flat Stock--Treliazz777 (talk) 13:39, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- It would be nice if you said why you thought that. Evil Tim (talk) 13:18, 31 January 2018 (EST)
- Okay, I think the Black Ops II is similar to the MP-44 (STG-44 First Model)--Treliazz777 (talk) 13:11, 31 January 2018 (EST)