User talk:Wuzh - Revision history

VolkNet at 16:10, 23 December 2023

2023-12-23T16:10:54Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:10, 23 December 2023
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	== "The" titles ==		== "The" titles ==
	Sorry, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 16:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)		Sorry, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 16:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

	~~== List of Firearms suddenly deleted. ==~~
	~~Alright... i understand... Bummer...--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 16:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)~~

VolkNet: /* List of Firearms suddenly deleted. */

2023-12-23T16:09:15Z

List of Firearms suddenly deleted.

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:09, 23 December 2023
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	== List of Firearms suddenly deleted. ==		== List of Firearms suddenly deleted. ==
	Alright... i understand... Bummer...		Alright... i understand... Bummer...--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 16:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

VolkNet: /* List of Firearms suddenly deleted. */

2023-12-23T16:08:57Z

List of Firearms suddenly deleted.

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:08, 23 December 2023
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	== List of Firearms suddenly deleted. ==		== List of Firearms suddenly deleted. ==
			Alright... i understand... Bummer...
	~~Wuzh, the list of firearms were deleted, what happened?--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 03:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)~~

	~~EDIT: Wuzh,~~ i ~~backed the souce code of the main 5 lists back in 2022 in case something like this would happen, with your permission, i would like to repost them in my personal sandbox~~.~~--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 04:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)~~

VolkNet: /* List of Firearms suddenly deleted. */

2023-12-23T04:22:51Z

List of Firearms suddenly deleted.

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:22, 23 December 2023
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	Wuzh, the list of firearms were deleted, what happened?--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 03:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)		Wuzh, the list of firearms were deleted, what happened?--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 03:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

	EDIT: ~~Nevermind~~, i ~~saw~~ the ~~discussion~~ [[~~Category~~ talk:~~Lists of weapons by armed forces~~\|~~here~~]]~~... oh well.~~		EDIT: Wuzh, i backed the souce code of the main 5 lists back in 2022 in case something like this would happen, with your permission, i would like to repost them in my personal sandbox.--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 04:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

VolkNet: /* List of Firearms suddenly deleted. */

2023-12-23T03:38:44Z

List of Firearms suddenly deleted.

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:38, 23 December 2023
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	Wuzh, the list of firearms were deleted, what happened?--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 03:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)		Wuzh, the list of firearms were deleted, what happened?--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 03:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

			EDIT: Nevermind, i saw the discussion [[Category talk:Lists of weapons by armed forces\|here]]... oh well.

VolkNet: /* List of Firearms suddenly deleted. */ new section

2023-12-23T03:34:46Z

List of Firearms suddenly deleted.: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:34, 23 December 2023
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	== "The" titles ==		== "The" titles ==
	Sorry, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 16:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)		Sorry, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 16:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

			== List of Firearms suddenly deleted. ==

			Wuzh, the list of firearms were deleted, what happened?--[[User:VolkNet\|VolkNet]] ([[User talk:VolkNet\|talk]]) 03:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Spartan198 at 16:00, 28 August 2023

2023-08-28T16:00:25Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:00, 28 August 2023
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	::-[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 00:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)		::-[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 00:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

			== "The" titles ==
			Sorry, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 16:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

MT2008: /* Heat Type 56-1 */

2023-07-14T00:08:44Z

Heat Type 56-1

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:08, 14 July 2023
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	:Sorry that the resolution isn't great - I took this pic back in 2004 when I originally bought the gun. I also can't take new pics because the rifle still resides at my family's house in another state at this time. But hopefully, you can see the difference vs. the Norinco-made guns. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 13:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC)		:Sorry that the resolution isn't great - I took this pic back in 2004 when I originally bought the gun. I also can't take new pics because the rifle still resides at my family's house in another state at this time. But hopefully, you can see the difference vs. the Norinco-made guns. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 13:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

			::So I missed your discussion over the [[Norinco]] group page, when you stripped that page of all the firearms believed (incorrectly) to have been manufactured by Norinco. I guess that I have somewhat mixed thoughts, though I see merits in your arguments. My take:

			::*You are correct that Norinco came into existence during the post-Maoism era reforms implemented by Deng Xiaopeng, as an arms export conglomerate that was meant to sell the products manufactured by PLA-owned state factories. Obviously, the company also did not exist when the Type 56 rifle was first manufactured - the original maker was State Factory 66.
			::*On the other hand, I do think it's also fair to say that Norinco was created to be essentially the brand name for the weapons that it has sold, and the difference between them and Poly Tech is that (usually), the two companies served as the export branch/international brand name for different factories. I don't know whether this is true, but at least one source I Googled suggests that Norinco guns are made by State Factory 66, while Poly Tech guns came from State Factory 326. Though it gets complicated - there were a lot of factory codes, and speculation is abound about what this means; common theory is that State Factory 66 was primary assembler, while parts came from other factories. This is also why the specs are slightly different between the guns sold in the West by Norinco vs. those sold by Poly Tech. So even if Norinco didn't own the manufacturing facilities themselves, it also isn't inaccurate to say that the PLA treated them as the "brand" for the guns that they sold.
			::*So, all this to say: I do think we have to be careful with the justification that we can't use a brand name for a weapon sold by a company if they are not also the manufacturer. As I am sure you know well, there are many firearm designs where the company that brands and sells the weapons is sourcing parts from another manufacturer. (Example: My Bravo Company Mfg AR-15 consists of parts manufactured mostly by Vltor, not BCM themselves, but I still call my rifle a "BCM" and not a "Vltor".)
			::*Philosophically, I do agree that when we're dealing with military weapons where the design is owned by a government entity, and more than one manufacturer exists, it's often a bad idea to use brand names. This is, of course, why I would generally discourage use of terms like "Colt M16A2" or "Colt M4A1" to describe recent U.S. military service rifles, where the TDP is owned by the USG (and nowadays, most of those guns are built by FN, anyway). Same logics applies in this situation.

			::-[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 00:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

MT2008: /* Heat Type 56-1 */

2023-07-10T13:24:21Z

Heat Type 56-1

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:24, 10 July 2023
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	The color of the wood finish is more consistent with the Norinco-built guns than Poly Techs. Also: We've traditionally referred to the Type 56 guns as "Norinco Type 56/Type 56-1/Type 56-2/etc." for many years now. Most of our pages refer to "Norinco Type 56-1", not just "Type 56-1." At this point, are you really prepared to go back and change all of those pages? I hate to say that we shouldn't do something because of a path dependency issue, but I also hate inconsistency even more. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 21:19, 7 July 2023 (UTC)		The color of the wood finish is more consistent with the Norinco-built guns than Poly Techs. Also: We've traditionally referred to the Type 56 guns as "Norinco Type 56/Type 56-1/Type 56-2/etc." for many years now. Most of our pages refer to "Norinco Type 56-1", not just "Type 56-1." At this point, are you really prepared to go back and change all of those pages? I hate to say that we shouldn't do something because of a path dependency issue, but I also hate inconsistency even more. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 21:19, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

			:Yes, you are correct that we shouldn't perpetuate mis-information due to habits and tradition. I also think that your approach makes sense, given that with some other type of rifles, we eschew the brand-name when we know that there was more than one manufacturer (example: I would consider "Colt M16A2" incorrect for identifying an M16A2-pattern rifle, vs. just "M16A2"). With that being said, I think that almost any of the movie armorers on here would tell you that the vast, VAST majority of their Type 56-pattern AK rifles were likely Norinco-manufactured. That is certainly my impression from anecdotal evidence after seeing countless action movies over the years. But if you want to undertake the project of re-naming Type 56 entries across IMFDB (hundreds if not thousands of pages at this point), then that is your prerogative.

			:RE the difference between Norinco and Poly Tech AKs - my understanding is that Poly Techs will usually have both (1.) a glossier, higher-grain wood finish (and they were imported with both light blonde wood and dark oak finishes), and (2.) a deeper blue finish on the metal parts. If you want to see an example - here is my own Poly Tech-manufactured AK, which was imported by Golden State Arms in the mid-1980s:

			:[[Image:MyAK (2).jpg\|thumb\|none\|500px\|]]

			:Sorry that the resolution isn't great - I took this pic back in 2004 when I originally bought the gun. I also can't take new pics because the rifle still resides at my family's house in another state at this time. But hopefully, you can see the difference vs. the Norinco-made guns. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 13:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

MT2008: /* Hellsinki */

2023-07-07T21:19:11Z

Hellsinki

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:19, 7 July 2023
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	I figured it was technical. The page has been around for over a decade, it was time to go. I saved the code. If someone else wants to put in the time to finish it, they can. --[[User:Funkychinaman\|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman\|talk]]) 17:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)		I figured it was technical. The page has been around for over a decade, it was time to go. I saved the code. If someone else wants to put in the time to finish it, they can. --[[User:Funkychinaman\|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman\|talk]]) 17:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

			==Heat Type 56-1==

			The color of the wood finish is more consistent with the Norinco-built guns than Poly Techs. Also: We've traditionally referred to the Type 56 guns as "Norinco Type 56/Type 56-1/Type 56-2/etc." for many years now. Most of our pages refer to "Norinco Type 56-1", not just "Type 56-1." At this point, are you really prepared to go back and change all of those pages? I hate to say that we shouldn't do something because of a path dependency issue, but I also hate inconsistency even more. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 21:19, 7 July 2023 (UTC)