Talk:Matewan - Revision history

Commando552: /* Lever action ID */

2014-05-26T14:33:34Z

Lever action ID

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:33, 26 May 2014
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	"An hired gun armed with a Winchester " Correct English uses "an" for a, e, i , o , u and h.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 08:18, 26 May 2014 (EDT)		"An hired gun armed with a Winchester " Correct English uses "an" for a, e, i , o , u and h.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 08:18, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

			:It is not as simple as that and in this case it is incorrect to use "an" before a word like hired. Although there are words that start with h that you use an ahead of, this is because the h is unsounded. As you sound the "h" in hired you use "a". "H" words that you would use "an" for are only ones with an unsounded "h" like "hour" or "honest". There are some that can use both, but this changes the pronounciation such as "historical" which if you use "an" means it is pronounced "is-torical", but with "a" it is "his-torical". --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 10:33, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

686P at 12:18, 26 May 2014

2014-05-26T12:18:43Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:18, 26 May 2014
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	Please allow me repeat my thanks to all contributors for their help with this page. My first page and all my expectations have been exceeded .--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 12:21, 24 May 2014 (EDT)		Please allow me repeat my thanks to all contributors for their help with this page. My first page and all my expectations have been exceeded .--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 12:21, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

			"An hired gun armed with a Winchester " Correct English uses "an" for a, e, i , o , u and h.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 08:18, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

686P at 16:21, 24 May 2014

2014-05-24T16:21:42Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:21, 24 May 2014
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	:I'm fairly sure that the two rifles pictured above are not the same gun. I'll address the train track image first, to say that I do not think it is a Chilean Mauser, but rather just a standard Karabiner 98k. If you look at the gap between the two barrel bands you will see that it is way too small for a Chilean M1895, but is correct for a Kar 98K. Also note the traditional style bayonet lug under the barrel which was absent from the M1895, instead having a front barrel band with the bayonet lug attached to the bottom. The front sight also appears to be the 98K ramped one rather than the parallel front/back one used on the Chilean Mausers. As for the second image above, this isn't a Kar 98K as the gap between the barrel bands is too large and it has the bayonet lug attached to the bottom of the front barrel band. I am not 100% sure it is an M1895 short rifle though, it could also be an M1916 Spanish Mauser. I don't know enough about Mausers to tell the difference from this shot, but I would probably lean more towards the Spanish Muaser as it looks like the cutout in the wood for the rear sight is pretty large which was a feature of the M1916. The real identifier would be if you can see if it has that little plate just behind the grip as I think this would positively identify it as a Chilean M1895 short rifle.--[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:38, 22 May 2014 (EDT)		:I'm fairly sure that the two rifles pictured above are not the same gun. I'll address the train track image first, to say that I do not think it is a Chilean Mauser, but rather just a standard Karabiner 98k. If you look at the gap between the two barrel bands you will see that it is way too small for a Chilean M1895, but is correct for a Kar 98K. Also note the traditional style bayonet lug under the barrel which was absent from the M1895, instead having a front barrel band with the bayonet lug attached to the bottom. The front sight also appears to be the 98K ramped one rather than the parallel front/back one used on the Chilean Mausers. As for the second image above, this isn't a Kar 98K as the gap between the barrel bands is too large and it has the bayonet lug attached to the bottom of the front barrel band. I am not 100% sure it is an M1895 short rifle though, it could also be an M1916 Spanish Mauser. I don't know enough about Mausers to tell the difference from this shot, but I would probably lean more towards the Spanish Muaser as it looks like the cutout in the wood for the rear sight is pretty large which was a feature of the M1916. The real identifier would be if you can see if it has that little plate just behind the grip as I think this would positively identify it as a Chilean M1895 short rifle.--[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:38, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

	~~Please allow me repeat my thanks to all contributors for their help with this page. It's exceeded all my expectations.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 12:19, 24 May 2014 (EDT)~~

	== IDs ==		== IDs ==
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	I see your point. I'll edit the page now.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 10:21, 23 May 2014 (EDT)		I see your point. I'll edit the page now.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 10:21, 23 May 2014 (EDT)

			Please allow me repeat my thanks to all contributors for their help with this page. My first page and all my expectations have been exceeded .--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 12:21, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

686P: /* Rifle */

2014-05-24T16:19:57Z

Rifle

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:19, 24 May 2014
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	:I'm fairly sure that the two rifles pictured above are not the same gun. I'll address the train track image first, to say that I do not think it is a Chilean Mauser, but rather just a standard Karabiner 98k. If you look at the gap between the two barrel bands you will see that it is way too small for a Chilean M1895, but is correct for a Kar 98K. Also note the traditional style bayonet lug under the barrel which was absent from the M1895, instead having a front barrel band with the bayonet lug attached to the bottom. The front sight also appears to be the 98K ramped one rather than the parallel front/back one used on the Chilean Mausers. As for the second image above, this isn't a Kar 98K as the gap between the barrel bands is too large and it has the bayonet lug attached to the bottom of the front barrel band. I am not 100% sure it is an M1895 short rifle though, it could also be an M1916 Spanish Mauser. I don't know enough about Mausers to tell the difference from this shot, but I would probably lean more towards the Spanish Muaser as it looks like the cutout in the wood for the rear sight is pretty large which was a feature of the M1916. The real identifier would be if you can see if it has that little plate just behind the grip as I think this would positively identify it as a Chilean M1895 short rifle.--[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:38, 22 May 2014 (EDT)		:I'm fairly sure that the two rifles pictured above are not the same gun. I'll address the train track image first, to say that I do not think it is a Chilean Mauser, but rather just a standard Karabiner 98k. If you look at the gap between the two barrel bands you will see that it is way too small for a Chilean M1895, but is correct for a Kar 98K. Also note the traditional style bayonet lug under the barrel which was absent from the M1895, instead having a front barrel band with the bayonet lug attached to the bottom. The front sight also appears to be the 98K ramped one rather than the parallel front/back one used on the Chilean Mausers. As for the second image above, this isn't a Kar 98K as the gap between the barrel bands is too large and it has the bayonet lug attached to the bottom of the front barrel band. I am not 100% sure it is an M1895 short rifle though, it could also be an M1916 Spanish Mauser. I don't know enough about Mausers to tell the difference from this shot, but I would probably lean more towards the Spanish Muaser as it looks like the cutout in the wood for the rear sight is pretty large which was a feature of the M1916. The real identifier would be if you can see if it has that little plate just behind the grip as I think this would positively identify it as a Chilean M1895 short rifle.--[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:38, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

			Please allow me repeat my thanks to all contributors for their help with this page. It's exceeded all my expectations.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 12:19, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

	== IDs ==		== IDs ==

686P: /* Lever action ID */

2014-05-23T14:21:15Z

Lever action ID

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:21, 23 May 2014
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	I think this may actually be a [[Garate El Tigre]], as it appears that there is a sling swivel on the rear barrel band, as well as the front sight being ahead of the front barrel band, both of which are features of the Garate El Tigre and not a real Wincehster Model 1892 "Saddle Ring" carbine. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 22 May 2014 (EDT)		I think this may actually be a [[Garate El Tigre]], as it appears that there is a sling swivel on the rear barrel band, as well as the front sight being ahead of the front barrel band, both of which are features of the Garate El Tigre and not a real Wincehster Model 1892 "Saddle Ring" carbine. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

			I see your point. I'll edit the page now.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 10:21, 23 May 2014 (EDT)

Commando552: /* Lever action ID */

2014-05-22T16:47:42Z

Lever action ID

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:47, 22 May 2014
Line 73:		Line 73:
	== Lever action ID ==		== Lever action ID ==

	I think this may actually be a [[Garate El Tigre]], as it appears that there is a sling swivel on the barrel band as well as the front sight being ahead of the barrel band, both of which are features of the Garate El Tigre and not a real Wincehster Model 1892 "Saddle Ring" carbine. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 22 May 2014 (EDT)		I think this may actually be a [[Garate El Tigre]], as it appears that there is a sling swivel on the rear barrel band, as well as the front sight being ahead of the front barrel band, both of which are features of the Garate El Tigre and not a real Wincehster Model 1892 "Saddle Ring" carbine. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

Commando552: /* Lever action ID */ new section

2014-05-22T16:45:43Z

Lever action ID: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:45, 22 May 2014
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	For some reason,a Colt Police Positive Special is ID'd as Kevin Tighe's gun. While a PPS would almost certainly have been in Matewan during the actual events,Tighe is holding an Official Police(or Army Special).Taking into account lens distortion,the gun is too big to be a PPS, plus the retaining screw/flange is too far forward for a PPS, and the cylinder flutes are too wide. Granted, it is hard sometimes deciding between these two models, especially in older films, when the average male was significantly shorter than todays's, but after spending some time comparing the		For some reason,a Colt Police Positive Special is ID'd as Kevin Tighe's gun. While a PPS would almost certainly have been in Matewan during the actual events,Tighe is holding an Official Police(or Army Special).Taking into account lens distortion,the gun is too big to be a PPS, plus the retaining screw/flange is too far forward for a PPS, and the cylinder flutes are too wide. Granted, it is hard sometimes deciding between these two models, especially in older films, when the average male was significantly shorter than todays's, but after spending some time comparing the
	different models at various angles, I have to stick with the OP as my ID. In the shot of Hatfield's Colts in his holsters(which are period correct)the right hand gun has a postwar hammmer while the left hand gun has the checked prewar style;that gun could also be the one used by Tighe.Again as Jcordell points out it is actually pretty hard to find proper vintage pieces for any period film.They did a pretty god job on this film. In fact, when Hatfield draws his Colts and fires both at the same time, downing the pair of Baldwin-Fetts ops simutaneously, that is the technique taught by J."Fitz"Fitzgerald of Colt for shooting twos guns at once(Fitzgerald is best known for popularising the cut away trigger guard back in the day, and wrote about the two-gun tactic in his 1930 book "Shooting". He carried a pair of snubbed, cutaway .45 Colt New Services,BTW.--[[User:Tecolote\|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote\|talk]]) 00:27, 22 May 2014 (EDT)		different models at various angles, I have to stick with the OP as my ID. In the shot of Hatfield's Colts in his holsters(which are period correct)the right hand gun has a postwar hammmer while the left hand gun has the checked prewar style;that gun could also be the one used by Tighe.Again as Jcordell points out it is actually pretty hard to find proper vintage pieces for any period film.They did a pretty god job on this film. In fact, when Hatfield draws his Colts and fires both at the same time, downing the pair of Baldwin-Fetts ops simutaneously, that is the technique taught by J."Fitz"Fitzgerald of Colt for shooting twos guns at once(Fitzgerald is best known for popularising the cut away trigger guard back in the day, and wrote about the two-gun tactic in his 1930 book "Shooting". He carried a pair of snubbed, cutaway .45 Colt New Services,BTW.--[[User:Tecolote\|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote\|talk]]) 00:27, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

			== Lever action ID ==

			I think this may actually be a [[Garate El Tigre]], as it appears that there is a sling swivel on the barrel band as well as the front sight being ahead of the barrel band, both of which are features of the Garate El Tigre and not a real Wincehster Model 1892 "Saddle Ring" carbine. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

Commando552: /* Rifle */

2014-05-22T16:38:17Z

Rifle

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:38, 22 May 2014
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	Good explanation. The Vetterli info is consistent with my research. Heaps were available at the time and dirt cheap.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 01:54, 22 May 2014 (EDT)		Good explanation. The Vetterli info is consistent with my research. Heaps were available at the time and dirt cheap.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 01:54, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

			:I'm fairly sure that the two rifles pictured above are not the same gun. I'll address the train track image first, to say that I do not think it is a Chilean Mauser, but rather just a standard Karabiner 98k. If you look at the gap between the two barrel bands you will see that it is way too small for a Chilean M1895, but is correct for a Kar 98K. Also note the traditional style bayonet lug under the barrel which was absent from the M1895, instead having a front barrel band with the bayonet lug attached to the bottom. The front sight also appears to be the 98K ramped one rather than the parallel front/back one used on the Chilean Mausers. As for the second image above, this isn't a Kar 98K as the gap between the barrel bands is too large and it has the bayonet lug attached to the bottom of the front barrel band. I am not 100% sure it is an M1895 short rifle though, it could also be an M1916 Spanish Mauser. I don't know enough about Mausers to tell the difference from this shot, but I would probably lean more towards the Spanish Muaser as it looks like the cutout in the wood for the rear sight is pretty large which was a feature of the M1916. The real identifier would be if you can see if it has that little plate just behind the grip as I think this would positively identify it as a Chilean M1895 short rifle.--[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:38, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

	== IDs ==		== IDs ==

686P: /* Rifle */

2014-05-22T05:54:20Z

Rifle

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:54, 22 May 2014
Line 39:		Line 39:

	A bit of trivia which may explain the use of Mausers in the film: it seems a popular rifle used for bear hunting by the people living in the area was the 11mm Vetterli bought from surplus dealers such as Bannerman's. Obviously, using Mausers with much more available ammo/blanks was easier than scrounging around for the old Vetterlis.--[[User:Tecolote\|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote\|talk]]) 23:49, 21 May 2014 (EDT)		A bit of trivia which may explain the use of Mausers in the film: it seems a popular rifle used for bear hunting by the people living in the area was the 11mm Vetterli bought from surplus dealers such as Bannerman's. Obviously, using Mausers with much more available ammo/blanks was easier than scrounging around for the old Vetterlis.--[[User:Tecolote\|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote\|talk]]) 23:49, 21 May 2014 (EDT)

			Good explanation. The Vetterli info is consistent with my research. Heaps were available at the time and dirt cheap.--[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 01:54, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

	== IDs ==		== IDs ==

Tecolote: /* IDs */

2014-05-22T04:27:48Z

IDs

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:27, 22 May 2014
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	Many thanks everyone for the contributions and corrections. It's great to have information from the more experienced and knowledgeable members help make this page accurate. I think this is a great movie and really have no-one who can advise me on the firearms used, or their chronological accuracy, but for the help from the members here. --[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 01:36, 20 May 2014 (EDT)		Many thanks everyone for the contributions and corrections. It's great to have information from the more experienced and knowledgeable members help make this page accurate. I think this is a great movie and really have no-one who can advise me on the firearms used, or their chronological accuracy, but for the help from the members here. --[[User:686P\|686P]] ([[User talk:686P\|talk]]) 01:36, 20 May 2014 (EDT)

			For some reason,a Colt Police Positive Special is ID'd as Kevin Tighe's gun. While a PPS would almost certainly have been in Matewan during the actual events,Tighe is holding an Official Police(or Army Special).Taking into account lens distortion,the gun is too big to be a PPS, plus the retaining screw/flange is too far forward for a PPS, and the cylinder flutes are too wide. Granted, it is hard sometimes deciding between these two models, especially in older films, when the average male was significantly shorter than todays's, but after spending some time comparing the
			different models at various angles, I have to stick with the OP as my ID. In the shot of Hatfield's Colts in his holsters(which are period correct)the right hand gun has a postwar hammmer while the left hand gun has the checked prewar style;that gun could also be the one used by Tighe.Again as Jcordell points out it is actually pretty hard to find proper vintage pieces for any period film.They did a pretty god job on this film. In fact, when Hatfield draws his Colts and fires both at the same time, downing the pair of Baldwin-Fetts ops simutaneously, that is the technique taught by J."Fitz"Fitzgerald of Colt for shooting twos guns at once(Fitzgerald is best known for popularising the cut away trigger guard back in the day, and wrote about the two-gun tactic in his 1930 book "Shooting". He carried a pair of snubbed, cutaway .45 Colt New Services,BTW.--[[User:Tecolote\|Tecolote]] ([[User talk:Tecolote\|talk]]) 00:27, 22 May 2014 (EDT)