Talk:Black Hawk Down - Revision history

MT2008: /* Article on props used */

2023-08-11T17:46:40Z

Article on props used

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:46, 11 August 2023
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	Any particular reason no one has added these images to the main page? [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 10:09, 21 October 2020 (EDT)		Any particular reason no one has added these images to the main page? [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 10:09, 21 October 2020 (EDT)

			::Haven't had time, but you're welcome to do it. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 17:46, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

	=Discussion=		=Discussion=

MT2008: /* Article on props used */

2023-08-11T17:45:11Z

Article on props used

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:45, 11 August 2023
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	:I came across this article, too, and had intended to post about it (but you beat me to it). Some of the interesting tidbits from the article that Earl Burress learned:		:I came across this article, too, and had intended to post about it (but you beat me to it). Some of the interesting tidbits from the article that Earl Burress learned:

	:*All of the M16A2s in the movie are actually former Guatemalan military-issue weapons that were procured as surplus by armorer Simon Atherton for the movie (and they ~~are indeed actual mil~~-~~spec burst~~-~~firing M16A2s, not~~ A2 ~~uppers on M16A1~~ lowers~~, as in so many other movies~~)		:*All of the M16A2s in the movie are actually former Guatemalan military-issue weapons that were procured as surplus by armorer Simon Atherton for the movie - while they're configured with burst trigger packs and markings, they (interestingly) also feature the A1-style lower without the built-up portion in the back (as found on A2-style lowers).
	:*Most of the CAR-15s in the film are also actually built from the same batch of M16A2s, including Gary Gordon's rifle. Select M16A2s were actually cut down to become Colt Model 727s and 733s. What this means is that most of the CAR-15s in the film have the triangular M16A2 handguard cap instead of the circular handguard cap found on Colt-produced carbines. (One notable exception: Hoot's Model 727 does appear to be the real deal: It actually does have the circular handguard cap of factory Colt CAR-15 variants.)		:*Most of the CAR-15s in the film are also actually built from the same batch of ex-Guatemalan Army M16A2s, including Gary Gordon's rifle. Select M16A2s were actually cut down to become Colt Model 727s and 733s. What this means is that most of the CAR-15s in the film have the triangular M16A2 handguard cap instead of the circular handguard cap found on Colt-produced carbines. (One notable exception: Hoot's Model 727 does appear to be the real deal: It actually does have the circular handguard cap of factory Colt CAR-15 variants.)
	:*Mr. Atherton confirmed, as we have long suspected, that the Gary Gordon CAR-15s from this movie were indeed re-used (albeit re-painted and with new muzzle devices) for the movies ''[[Blood Diamond]]'' and ''[[Green Zone]]''.		:*Mr. Atherton confirmed, as we have long suspected, that the Gary Gordon CAR-15s from this movie were indeed re-used (albeit re-painted and with new muzzle devices) for the movies ''[[Blood Diamond]]'' and ''[[Green Zone]]''.
	:*The Shughart M14 rifles were Federal Ordinance MDL.M1As provided to Simon Atherton by Mike Gibbons from Gibbons, Ltd. (a U.S. armory - now out of business). Gibbons later sold the eight MDL.M1As to Independent Studio Services around 2008-09 (which is when Gibbons went under and sold its inventory to ISS).		:*The Shughart M14 rifles were Federal Ordinance MDL.M1As provided to Simon Atherton by Mike Gibbons from Gibbons, Ltd. (a U.S. armory - now out of business). Gibbons later sold the eight MDL.M1As to Independent Studio Services around 2008-09 (which is when Gibbons went under and sold its inventory to ISS).

Alex Vostox: /* MALBATT:Misi Bakara (2023) */ new section

2023-07-12T15:45:24Z

MALBATT:Misi Bakara (2023): new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:45, 12 July 2023
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	:I'd imagine that is what would happen when the warhead doesn't arm because if it hasn't passed its minimum safe distance--[[User:AgentGumby\|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby\|talk]]) 22:13, 5 October 2017 (EDT)		:I'd imagine that is what would happen when the warhead doesn't arm because if it hasn't passed its minimum safe distance--[[User:AgentGumby\|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby\|talk]]) 22:13, 5 October 2017 (EDT)
	::The incident in the movie actually happened, the Ranger in question was Pfc. Richard Kowalewski. A number of people have been hit by non-detonating RPGs, the one you mentioned, another US soldier who got hit in the leg by an RPG and survived, a British Para got hit in the front plate by an RPG and was basically just knocked on his arse and got back up, and a friend of mine had a rpg ricochet off of his helmet and knock him out. Some people say that this happens because RPGs won't detonate on soft targets but I am more inclined to say that the majority of rounds are mistreated and not stored properly so are duds. I remember hearing that at one point in Afghanistan something like 20-30% of RPGs failed to detonate due to improper storage. In the case of Kowalewski the round penetrated the side of his Humvee so it definitely had nothing to do with it only hitting a soft target, and the same can be said of the Para who got hit in the plate. The RPG that hit my friend on the helmet actually detonated a few seconds later after it had bounced off and landed on the ground, so that one wasn't a dud but i think in that case it was just luck that the side of the body of the warhead made contact rather than the tip of the fuse itself. As for the arming distance thing, I believe that this is only about 10 meters and I doubt that any of these shots were closer than that. The arming distance thing is very variable by country though, however I think it actually tends to be shorted than this with some warheads being armed as soon as they are fired. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 6 October 2017 (EDT)		::The incident in the movie actually happened, the Ranger in question was Pfc. Richard Kowalewski. A number of people have been hit by non-detonating RPGs, the one you mentioned, another US soldier who got hit in the leg by an RPG and survived, a British Para got hit in the front plate by an RPG and was basically just knocked on his arse and got back up, and a friend of mine had a rpg ricochet off of his helmet and knock him out. Some people say that this happens because RPGs won't detonate on soft targets but I am more inclined to say that the majority of rounds are mistreated and not stored properly so are duds. I remember hearing that at one point in Afghanistan something like 20-30% of RPGs failed to detonate due to improper storage. In the case of Kowalewski the round penetrated the side of his Humvee so it definitely had nothing to do with it only hitting a soft target, and the same can be said of the Para who got hit in the plate. The RPG that hit my friend on the helmet actually detonated a few seconds later after it had bounced off and landed on the ground, so that one wasn't a dud but i think in that case it was just luck that the side of the body of the warhead made contact rather than the tip of the fuse itself. As for the arming distance thing, I believe that this is only about 10 meters and I doubt that any of these shots were closer than that. The arming distance thing is very variable by country though, however I think it actually tends to be shorted than this with some warheads being armed as soon as they are fired. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 6 October 2017 (EDT)

			== MALBATT:Misi Bakara (2023) ==

			It seems like they'll be upcoming Malaysian movie that'll tell their side during the 1994 Battle of Modgadishu. It was directed by the same guy behind 2018 [[PASKAL_The_Movie\|Paskal The Movie]] Here's the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et2viNOwRrE official trailer.]. Paul Biddiss of PB Military Technical Advisor were also [https://twitter.com/EVostox/status/1670217106359738368 involved in this movie.]

Spartan198: /* Interesting Uniform Note */

2020-11-11T23:31:08Z

Interesting Uniform Note

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:31, 11 November 2020
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	==Interesting Uniform Note==		==Interesting Uniform Note==
	Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the ~~1990's~~ and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new ~~DCU's~~ with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.		Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the 1990s and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new DCUs with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.

	[[Image:BHDMinimi-4.jpg\|thumb\|none\|600px\|[[Tom Hardy]] wielding an FN Minimi as Spc. Twombly, giving us a good look at his 3-color DCU uniform and 6-color helmet cover]]		[[Image:BHDMinimi-4.jpg\|thumb\|none\|600px\|[[Tom Hardy]] wielding an FN Minimi as Spc. Twombly, giving us a good look at his 3-color DCU uniform and 6-color helmet cover]]

Spartan198: /* Article on props used */

2020-10-21T14:09:58Z

Article on props used

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:09, 21 October 2020
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	:All told, very neat - I'm glad that we have now this kind of behind-the-scenes info. Now we just need to update this page accordingly... -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 09:56, 27 May 2019 (EDT)		:All told, very neat - I'm glad that we have now this kind of behind-the-scenes info. Now we just need to update this page accordingly... -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 09:56, 27 May 2019 (EDT)

			Any particular reason no one has added these images to the main page? [[User:Spartan198\|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198\|talk]]) 10:09, 21 October 2020 (EDT)

	=Discussion=		=Discussion=

StanTheMan: Moving this section up under Trivia

2019-05-31T17:53:54Z

Moving this section up under Trivia

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 =Discussion=
@@ Line 500: / Line 515: @@
 :I'd imagine that is what would happen when the warhead doesn't arm because if it hasn't passed its minimum safe distance--[[User:AgentGumby|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby|talk]]) 22:13, 5 October 2017 (EDT)
 ::The incident in the movie actually happened, the Ranger in question was Pfc. Richard Kowalewski. A number of people have been hit by non-detonating RPGs, the one you mentioned, another US soldier who got hit in the leg by an RPG and survived, a British Para got hit in the front plate by an RPG and was basically just knocked on his arse and got back up, and a friend of mine had a rpg ricochet off of his helmet and knock him out. Some people say that this happens because RPGs won't detonate on soft targets but I am more inclined to say that the majority of rounds are mistreated and not stored properly so are duds. I remember hearing that at one point in Afghanistan something like 20-30% of RPGs failed to detonate due to improper storage. In the case of Kowalewski the round penetrated the side of his Humvee so it definitely had nothing to do with it only hitting a soft target, and the same can be said of the Para who got hit in the plate. The RPG that hit my friend on the helmet actually detonated a few seconds later after it had bounced off and landed on the ground, so that one wasn't a dud but i think in that case it was just luck that the side of the body of the warhead made contact rather than the tip of the fuse itself. As for the arming distance thing, I believe that this is only about 10 meters and I doubt that any of these shots were closer than that. The arming distance thing is very variable by country though, however I think it actually tends to be shorted than this with some warheads being armed as soon as they are fired.  --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552|talk]]) 12:45, 6 October 2017 (EDT)

MT2008: /* Article on props used */

2019-05-27T13:56:34Z

Article on props used

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:56, 27 May 2019
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	:*All of the M16A2s in the movie are actually former Guatemalan military-issue weapons that were procured as surplus by armorer Simon Atherton for the movie (and they are indeed actual mil-spec burst-firing M16A2s, not A2 uppers on M16A1 lowers, as in so many other movies)		:*All of the M16A2s in the movie are actually former Guatemalan military-issue weapons that were procured as surplus by armorer Simon Atherton for the movie (and they are indeed actual mil-spec burst-firing M16A2s, not A2 uppers on M16A1 lowers, as in so many other movies)
	:*Most of the CAR-15s in the film are also actually built from the same batch of M16A2s, including Gary Gordon's rifle. Select M16A2s were actually cut down to become Colt Model 727s and 733s. What this means is that most of the CAR-15s in the film have the triangular M16A2 handguard cap instead of the circular handguard cap found on Colt-produced carbines. (One notable exception: Hoot's Model 727 does appear to be the real deal: It actually does have the circular handguard cap of factory Colt CAR-15 variants.)		:*Most of the CAR-15s in the film are also actually built from the same batch of M16A2s, including Gary Gordon's rifle. Select M16A2s were actually cut down to become Colt Model 727s and 733s. What this means is that most of the CAR-15s in the film have the triangular M16A2 handguard cap instead of the circular handguard cap found on Colt-produced carbines. (One notable exception: Hoot's Model 727 does appear to be the real deal: It actually does have the circular handguard cap of factory Colt CAR-15 variants.)
	:*~~Simon~~ Atherton confirmed, as we have long suspected, that the Gary Gordon CAR-15s from this movie were indeed re-used (albeit re-painted and with new muzzle devices) for the movies ''[[Blood Diamond]]'' and ''[[~~The~~ Green Zone]]''.		:*Mr. Atherton confirmed, as we have long suspected, that the Gary Gordon CAR-15s from this movie were indeed re-used (albeit re-painted and with new muzzle devices) for the movies ''[[Blood Diamond]]'' and ''[[Green Zone]]''.
	:*The Shughart M14 rifles were Federal Ordinance MDL.M1As provided to Simon Atherton by Mike Gibbons from Gibbons, Ltd. (a U.S. armory - now out of business). Gibbons later sold the eight MDL.M1As to Independent Studio Services around 2008-09 (which is when Gibbons went under and sold its inventory to ISS).		:*The Shughart M14 rifles were Federal Ordinance MDL.M1As provided to Simon Atherton by Mike Gibbons from Gibbons, Ltd. (a U.S. armory - now out of business). Gibbons later sold the eight MDL.M1As to Independent Studio Services around 2008-09 (which is when Gibbons went under and sold its inventory to ISS).
	:*Atherton acknowledged that the rubber stunt weapons don't match the blank-firing weapons: Notably, the rubber M16A2s are actually cast from civilian AR-15 A2s with slab-side lowers, while Hoot's rubber CAR-15 (seen notably in the "this is my safety" scene) is indeed cast from a flattop M4 carbine, which would have been anachronistic for 1993.		:*Atherton acknowledged that the rubber stunt weapons don't match the blank-firing weapons: Notably, the rubber M16A2s are actually cast from civilian AR-15 A2s with slab-side lowers, while Hoot's rubber CAR-15 (seen notably in the "this is my safety" scene) is indeed cast from a flattop M4 carbine, which would have been anachronistic for 1993.

MT2008: /* Article on props used */

2019-05-27T13:56:14Z

Article on props used

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:56, 27 May 2019
Line 504:		Line 504:

	I came across an article from last fall detailing some of the props used in the film. https://www.recoilweb.com/the-guns-of-black-hawk-down-142415.html --[[User:Funkychinaman\|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman\|talk]]) 12:00, 8 March 2019 (EST)		I came across an article from last fall detailing some of the props used in the film. https://www.recoilweb.com/the-guns-of-black-hawk-down-142415.html --[[User:Funkychinaman\|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman\|talk]]) 12:00, 8 March 2019 (EST)

			:I came across this article, too, and had intended to post about it (but you beat me to it). Some of the interesting tidbits from the article that Earl Burress learned:

			:*All of the M16A2s in the movie are actually former Guatemalan military-issue weapons that were procured as surplus by armorer Simon Atherton for the movie (and they are indeed actual mil-spec burst-firing M16A2s, not A2 uppers on M16A1 lowers, as in so many other movies)
			:*Most of the CAR-15s in the film are also actually built from the same batch of M16A2s, including Gary Gordon's rifle. Select M16A2s were actually cut down to become Colt Model 727s and 733s. What this means is that most of the CAR-15s in the film have the triangular M16A2 handguard cap instead of the circular handguard cap found on Colt-produced carbines. (One notable exception: Hoot's Model 727 does appear to be the real deal: It actually does have the circular handguard cap of factory Colt CAR-15 variants.)
			:*Simon Atherton confirmed, as we have long suspected, that the Gary Gordon CAR-15s from this movie were indeed re-used (albeit re-painted and with new muzzle devices) for the movies ''[[Blood Diamond]]'' and ''[[The Green Zone]]''.
			:*The Shughart M14 rifles were Federal Ordinance MDL.M1As provided to Simon Atherton by Mike Gibbons from Gibbons, Ltd. (a U.S. armory - now out of business). Gibbons later sold the eight MDL.M1As to Independent Studio Services around 2008-09 (which is when Gibbons went under and sold its inventory to ISS).
			:*Atherton acknowledged that the rubber stunt weapons don't match the blank-firing weapons: Notably, the rubber M16A2s are actually cast from civilian AR-15 A2s with slab-side lowers, while Hoot's rubber CAR-15 (seen notably in the "this is my safety" scene) is indeed cast from a flattop M4 carbine, which would have been anachronistic for 1993.
			:*When Mr. Burress asked Mr. Atherton if the rifles used in the film were painted using an airbrush, Mr. Atherton told him that the rifles were painted quickly, using techniques recommended by military advisor Harry Humphries.

			:All told, very neat - I'm glad that we have now this kind of behind-the-scenes info. Now we just need to update this page accordingly... -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 09:56, 27 May 2019 (EDT)

Funkychinaman: /* Article on props used */ new section

2019-03-08T17:00:09Z

Article on props used: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:00, 8 March 2019
Line 500:		Line 500:
	:I'd imagine that is what would happen when the warhead doesn't arm because if it hasn't passed its minimum safe distance--[[User:AgentGumby\|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby\|talk]]) 22:13, 5 October 2017 (EDT)		:I'd imagine that is what would happen when the warhead doesn't arm because if it hasn't passed its minimum safe distance--[[User:AgentGumby\|AgentGumby]] ([[User talk:AgentGumby\|talk]]) 22:13, 5 October 2017 (EDT)
	::The incident in the movie actually happened, the Ranger in question was Pfc. Richard Kowalewski. A number of people have been hit by non-detonating RPGs, the one you mentioned, another US soldier who got hit in the leg by an RPG and survived, a British Para got hit in the front plate by an RPG and was basically just knocked on his arse and got back up, and a friend of mine had a rpg ricochet off of his helmet and knock him out. Some people say that this happens because RPGs won't detonate on soft targets but I am more inclined to say that the majority of rounds are mistreated and not stored properly so are duds. I remember hearing that at one point in Afghanistan something like 20-30% of RPGs failed to detonate due to improper storage. In the case of Kowalewski the round penetrated the side of his Humvee so it definitely had nothing to do with it only hitting a soft target, and the same can be said of the Para who got hit in the plate. The RPG that hit my friend on the helmet actually detonated a few seconds later after it had bounced off and landed on the ground, so that one wasn't a dud but i think in that case it was just luck that the side of the body of the warhead made contact rather than the tip of the fuse itself. As for the arming distance thing, I believe that this is only about 10 meters and I doubt that any of these shots were closer than that. The arming distance thing is very variable by country though, however I think it actually tends to be shorted than this with some warheads being armed as soon as they are fired. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 6 October 2017 (EDT)		::The incident in the movie actually happened, the Ranger in question was Pfc. Richard Kowalewski. A number of people have been hit by non-detonating RPGs, the one you mentioned, another US soldier who got hit in the leg by an RPG and survived, a British Para got hit in the front plate by an RPG and was basically just knocked on his arse and got back up, and a friend of mine had a rpg ricochet off of his helmet and knock him out. Some people say that this happens because RPGs won't detonate on soft targets but I am more inclined to say that the majority of rounds are mistreated and not stored properly so are duds. I remember hearing that at one point in Afghanistan something like 20-30% of RPGs failed to detonate due to improper storage. In the case of Kowalewski the round penetrated the side of his Humvee so it definitely had nothing to do with it only hitting a soft target, and the same can be said of the Para who got hit in the plate. The RPG that hit my friend on the helmet actually detonated a few seconds later after it had bounced off and landed on the ground, so that one wasn't a dud but i think in that case it was just luck that the side of the body of the warhead made contact rather than the tip of the fuse itself. As for the arming distance thing, I believe that this is only about 10 meters and I doubt that any of these shots were closer than that. The arming distance thing is very variable by country though, however I think it actually tends to be shorted than this with some warheads being armed as soon as they are fired. --[[User:Commando552\|commando552]] ([[User talk:Commando552\|talk]]) 12:45, 6 October 2017 (EDT)

			== Article on props used ==

			I came across an article from last fall detailing some of the props used in the film. https://www.recoilweb.com/the-guns-of-black-hawk-down-142415.html --[[User:Funkychinaman\|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman\|talk]]) 12:00, 8 March 2019 (EST)

MT2008: /* M4 in 1994? */

2018-09-02T21:27:24Z

M4 in 1994?

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:27, 2 September 2018
Line 137:		Line 137:

	All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...		All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...

			::::::::So, obviously, this is an old debate, but to settle it: The Delta operators did NOT use the M4, not even prototypes, during Operation Gothic Serpent. As the page now points out, the Delta operators were actually using Colt Model 653s and 723s in 1993, which means that they were actually using ''older'' AR variants than the Rangers (who were using a mix of M16A2s and Colt Model 727s, or "M16A2 Carbines" as the -727 was known at the time). Of course, the year after the events of this film, all of USASOC (including Delta, the Rangers, and Group) started transitioning to the M4. -[[User:MT2008\|MT2008]] ([[User talk:MT2008\|talk]]) 17:27, 2 September 2018 (EDT)

	== Shughart and the M14/M16 switch ==		== Shughart and the M14/M16 switch ==