Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games - User contributions [en]

Talk:Full Metal Jacket

2012-01-09T02:54:32Z

StarSummers: /* VC Sniper (Ngoc Le) */

==Timeframe?==
Anyone know the actual YEAR this is supposed to take place? I noticed that the 'Marines' are wearing the M69 flak vests, which came out in late 67-early 68, and Marines got everything later than the Army did. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The Tet Offensive took place on January 31, 1968, so I believe the equipment would be correct.

:Yeah, thanks DUH! (slap head), I forgot that the Tet Offensive was shown in the movie. It's been that long since I've seen it. But as I recall, all of the Marines I saw in actual combat footage of the Tet offensive still wore the old M58 flak vests (with the rib on the shoulder to hold the rifle sling), so these 'marines' in the movie are getting their gear BEFORE the Army, lol! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 16:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== Ranks ==

By the Vietnam sequence (set a couple years after Boot Camp), Joker is Sergeant and Cowboy is a Corporal, the page continually still refers to them as Pvt though.
:Cowboy is a Staff Sergeant or so. Crazy Earl is a Gunnery Sergeant and Touchdown is a Lt. I don't think Joker is supposed to be an sergent though.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 20:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

- I definitely recall Joker referring to himself as a 'Sergeant' in the film (I believe when he talks to the Lt. after finding the mass grave, right before he gets chewed out by that Colonel.) [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== VC Sniper (Ngoc Le) ==

I thought the sniper has a rifle with scope? Every sniper has a rifle with scope I thought, but the VC sniper seems to shoot very accurate on big distances? Or has she got a scope?
:No, she didn't have a scope. They called her a sniper because they didn't know or give a damn what kind of gun she was using. - [[User:Kilgore|Kilgore]] 23:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Not all snipers have a scoped rifle. Its not the rifle that makes the person a sniper.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 22:32, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, the original snipers didn't have scopes. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:59, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:: Simo Hayha had 505 confirmed kills with Finnish M/28 version of the Mosin Nagant. He preferred using iron sights because he could present a smaller target, without having to raise his head to the scope, as well in the cold climate of the Winter War, scopes could fog up. He also would pack the snow down infront of his position so the shot wouldnt disturb the snow around him, as well as keeping snow in his mouth to keep his breath from giving away his position.
::A sniper is someone who shoots from cover at distance to kill with accuracy and efficiency. Atleast thats how i always saw it. -MissySummers- 20:50, 8 January 2012 (CST)

== Blank cartridges? ==

It seems to me, that in the scene Joker uses the M60 at the enemy assault on the marine base (Timecode 55:30), he only has blank cartridges in his ammo belt.
See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Blank_cartridge_7.62_x_51mm.jpg to compare.
Might this be possible?
:It's very possible, movies use blanks instead of live ammunition for safety, and because blank rounds on belts can't hide the fact they're blanks because they're out in the open. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

It's also illegal to use live ammo on a film set due to health and safety as well isn't it? --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 09:17, 13 April 2011 (CDT)

== M16? Accurate? ==

The original M16 wasn't used by the Marines, Only by the Air Force. The Marines and Army (not sure about Navy) used the XM16E1 and M16A1, and since the film takes place in 1968, they should be using the M16A1, not the original M16(SP1). Unless the M16 was the only one they could find then thats acceptable. --[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

Talk:Full Metal Jacket

2012-01-09T02:53:35Z

StarSummers: /* VC Sniper (Ngoc Le) */

==Timeframe?==
Anyone know the actual YEAR this is supposed to take place? I noticed that the 'Marines' are wearing the M69 flak vests, which came out in late 67-early 68, and Marines got everything later than the Army did. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The Tet Offensive took place on January 31, 1968, so I believe the equipment would be correct.

:Yeah, thanks DUH! (slap head), I forgot that the Tet Offensive was shown in the movie. It's been that long since I've seen it. But as I recall, all of the Marines I saw in actual combat footage of the Tet offensive still wore the old M58 flak vests (with the rib on the shoulder to hold the rifle sling), so these 'marines' in the movie are getting their gear BEFORE the Army, lol! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 16:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== Ranks ==

By the Vietnam sequence (set a couple years after Boot Camp), Joker is Sergeant and Cowboy is a Corporal, the page continually still refers to them as Pvt though.
:Cowboy is a Staff Sergeant or so. Crazy Earl is a Gunnery Sergeant and Touchdown is a Lt. I don't think Joker is supposed to be an sergent though.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 20:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

- I definitely recall Joker referring to himself as a 'Sergeant' in the film (I believe when he talks to the Lt. after finding the mass grave, right before he gets chewed out by that Colonel.) [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== VC Sniper (Ngoc Le) ==

I thought the sniper has a rifle with scope? Every sniper has a rifle with scope I thought, but the VC sniper seems to shoot very accurate on big distances? Or has she got a scope?
:No, she didn't have a scope. They called her a sniper because they didn't know or give a damn what kind of gun she was using. - [[User:Kilgore|Kilgore]] 23:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Not all snipers have a scoped rifle. Its not the rifle that makes the person a sniper.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 22:32, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, the original snipers didn't have scopes. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:59, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:: Simo Hayha had 505 confirmed kills with Finnish M/28 version of the Mosin Nagant. He preferred using iron sights because he could present a smaller target, without having to raise his head to the scope, as well in the cold climate of the Winter War, scopes could fog up. He also would pack the snow down infront of his position so the shot wouldnt disturb the snow around him, as well as keeping snow in his mouth to keep his breath from giving away his position.

A sniper is someone who shoots from cover at distance to kill with accuracy and efficiency. Atleast thats how i always saw it. -MissySummers- 20:50, 8 January 2012 (CST)

== Blank cartridges? ==

It seems to me, that in the scene Joker uses the M60 at the enemy assault on the marine base (Timecode 55:30), he only has blank cartridges in his ammo belt.
See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Blank_cartridge_7.62_x_51mm.jpg to compare.
Might this be possible?
:It's very possible, movies use blanks instead of live ammunition for safety, and because blank rounds on belts can't hide the fact they're blanks because they're out in the open. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

It's also illegal to use live ammo on a film set due to health and safety as well isn't it? --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 09:17, 13 April 2011 (CDT)

== M16? Accurate? ==

The original M16 wasn't used by the Marines, Only by the Air Force. The Marines and Army (not sure about Navy) used the XM16E1 and M16A1, and since the film takes place in 1968, they should be using the M16A1, not the original M16(SP1). Unless the M16 was the only one they could find then thats acceptable. --[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

Talk:Full Metal Jacket

2012-01-09T02:50:26Z

StarSummers: /* VC Sniper (Ngoc Le) */

==Timeframe?==
Anyone know the actual YEAR this is supposed to take place? I noticed that the 'Marines' are wearing the M69 flak vests, which came out in late 67-early 68, and Marines got everything later than the Army did. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The Tet Offensive took place on January 31, 1968, so I believe the equipment would be correct.

:Yeah, thanks DUH! (slap head), I forgot that the Tet Offensive was shown in the movie. It's been that long since I've seen it. But as I recall, all of the Marines I saw in actual combat footage of the Tet offensive still wore the old M58 flak vests (with the rib on the shoulder to hold the rifle sling), so these 'marines' in the movie are getting their gear BEFORE the Army, lol! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 16:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== Ranks ==

By the Vietnam sequence (set a couple years after Boot Camp), Joker is Sergeant and Cowboy is a Corporal, the page continually still refers to them as Pvt though.
:Cowboy is a Staff Sergeant or so. Crazy Earl is a Gunnery Sergeant and Touchdown is a Lt. I don't think Joker is supposed to be an sergent though.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 20:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

- I definitely recall Joker referring to himself as a 'Sergeant' in the film (I believe when he talks to the Lt. after finding the mass grave, right before he gets chewed out by that Colonel.) [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== VC Sniper (Ngoc Le) ==

I thought the sniper has a rifle with scope? Every sniper has a rifle with scope I thought, but the VC sniper seems to shoot very accurate on big distances? Or has she got a scope?
:No, she didn't have a scope. They called her a sniper because they didn't know or give a damn what kind of gun she was using. - [[User:Kilgore|Kilgore]] 23:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Not all snipers have a scoped rifle. Its not the rifle that makes the person a sniper.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 22:32, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, the original snipers didn't have scopes. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:59, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:: Simo Hayha had 505 confirmed kills with Finnish M/28 version of the Mosin Nagant. He preferred using iron sights because he could present a smaller target, without having to raise his head to the scope, as well in the cold climate of the Winter War, scopes could fog up. He also would pack the snow down infront of his position so the shot wouldnt disturb the snow around him, as well as keeping snow in his mouth to keep his breath from giving away his position. -MissySummers- 20:50, 8 January 2012 (CST)

== Blank cartridges? ==

It seems to me, that in the scene Joker uses the M60 at the enemy assault on the marine base (Timecode 55:30), he only has blank cartridges in his ammo belt.
See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Blank_cartridge_7.62_x_51mm.jpg to compare.
Might this be possible?
:It's very possible, movies use blanks instead of live ammunition for safety, and because blank rounds on belts can't hide the fact they're blanks because they're out in the open. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

It's also illegal to use live ammo on a film set due to health and safety as well isn't it? --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 09:17, 13 April 2011 (CDT)

== M16? Accurate? ==

The original M16 wasn't used by the Marines, Only by the Air Force. The Marines and Army (not sure about Navy) used the XM16E1 and M16A1, and since the film takes place in 1968, they should be using the M16A1, not the original M16(SP1). Unless the M16 was the only one they could find then thats acceptable. --[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

Talk:Casino Royale (2006)

2012-01-09T00:51:11Z

StarSummers: /* PPK */

Could someone identify the automatic weapons used in the final shootout in the sinking building.

JNA

Response from Anonymous: Two of Gettler's thugs are using H&K UMP.45s with laser scopes and silencers. They are clearly UMP.45s due to their forward handgrip and straightened clip.

:::UMP40s also have straight mags and you can put a forward handgrip on almost any submachine gun with rails. I'm not saying they're not UMP45s, but if that's all you're basing that on... -Funkychinaman

:Tsk, Tsk, Magazine. A clip loads a magazine. A bolt action rifle like a Mauser 98 has an internal magazine which you load with a clip, or stripper clip in this manner. Now, if you refer to a magazine as a "clip", that would mean you would be loading a clip with a clip. ?? Now you can't load a clip with a clip because then you'd be smacking to en-blocs or stripper clips together like an idiot. And you can't load a magazine with a magazine, that also proves to be a problem. But you can load a magazine with a clip. See the confusion in using improper designation? -GM

::Also, I really get sick of editing pages to replace the word "silencer" with "suppressor". -MT2008

To be fair several suppressor/sliencer manufactuters use the term "silencer" to describe there product, such as YHM, AAC, AWC, Gemtech, KAC and HTG. Also while speakaing with various employees of the said companies at the SHOT Shows, they often use the term "silencer". Gunner313

:I think the point is you can never really fully silence a gun, but you can suppress it. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 05:22, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

::To silence a gun 100% I would think is nearly impossible, but to lower the noise of the shot to below human hearing is probably feasible, but not practical. The "silencer" would be so large that the gun would be extremely barrel heavy, and the bullet would have to be subsonic prior to exiting said silencer. All these limit the gun's effectiveness, and lets face it, the point of a suppressor is to attract less attention to yourself when firing. At the range you'd be limited to, you might as well be holding a sign above your head saying, "I have a silenced gun!" At least that's what I think. Anyone care to comment? -Tal379

I wasn't talking about the definition of "silencer". But on the note of a " silencer". Example; on a two stroke motocross bike the rear portion of the exhuast is called the silencer and the front part the expansion chamber. No the silencer doesn't completey muffle the sound, it just reduces it. Yes it would make sense to only call it a muffler, but many words used to describe a product do not describe what it actually does. One last example off the top of my head refering to what an item does; ram air induction on a production vehicle doesn't ram air into the engine, it simple allows an easier path and an adaquate amount of air to reach the air/fuel mixture area. But it is still called ram air. You can't take the word "silencer" or any other name of a product and expect it to be an accurate representation of what the product does, it is just a name. Gunner313

Gunner. The ram air effect that you says doesn't do anything, on a 600cc motorcycle the ram air effect at speed can increase the engines power by as much as 8-10%, compared to what it has when stationary. So it does RAM air into the air box.
How do you think the Ram Jet engine on the SR-71 Blackhawk works? Rob the Fiend

What does bond do when he's putting away his P99? it seems like he decocks just before he puts it aways yet this gun is a DAO and lacks a decocker from what i can see. what is he doing exactly?
--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

@FIVETWOSEVEN: you´re talking about the Prague scene? well he is just decocking it, they´re several variants of the P99 and Bond is using the P99 AS (Anti-stress version) which has a decocker on the slide...

:Bond is not using the P99 AS in this movie; he's using the first-generation (1990s) production model, the oldest version. He isn't actually decocking it; the foley editor just inserts the sound of the gun being decocked. Sound editors tend to be ignorant about how guns work, which is why you often "hear" actors cocking non-existent "hammers" on Glocks and other such pistols in movies whenever they're drawn. This is the same case. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 23:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

:That´s right, he is using the first generation P99, and Walther changed the name of the current production P99 to P99 AS (that´s why I used the term "Anti-Stress"). But the technics (single/double action trigger) are the same on both weapons, and as a owner of a first generation P99 I can say that there is a decocker on the frame. And Bond is obviously using it as he puts his thumb exactly on the position of the decocking button and presses it down, which makes sense to carry his gun safe after using it. If you watch the scene in slow-motion, you´ll recognize it! -[[User:REAPER|REAPER]] 04 February 2010

A P99 from the movie was photographed and uploaded here. If you look at the left side view, just in front of the rear sights, you can see the decocker button. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

the unknown pistol looks like a H&K USP or Mk23 to me

==Unknown Pistol==

I'm pretty sure the unknown pistol used by Mr White is a suppressed Sig Sauer P226

OK:
# Sign your posts (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>)
# The gun looks like it has a rounded trigger guard, which rules out the SIG and the HKs. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 12:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

OK:
so what about a S&W Sigma as seen earlier in the movie.. that has a rounded trigger guard

The Trigger Guard is certainly rounded, and the weapon is FAR too small to be an MK23.--[[User:Jackie.45Cal|Jackie.45Cal]] 14:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I am 90% sure that the pistol used by Mr White isn't a SIG-Sauer p230. It looks like a full-sized pistol to me. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's a 1911 variant of some sort, but it's pretty much complete speculation, since I was watching the movie on tv and didn't stop to look real close. - [[User:TrueBeliever19|TrueBeliever19]] 00:35, 20 March 2011

Watch the behind the scenes in the special features.. it has a good shot of Mr White from a different angle and the gun can be seen alot clearer. Its definately bigger than a P230 and way smaller than a MK23

Honestly, I have to just go with a Walther PP. Seems fitting for a Bond movie. [[User:Bristow8411|Bristow8411]] 15:35, 14 December 2011 (CST)

== Mollaka Gun Continutity ==

I thought Mollaka used a SIG-Sauer P226 from a Picture I saw. Then I read here that it was an H&K USP Compact. I found the Picture again, and I still believe I was right, but the Gun was simply a Continuity Error. [http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3639712000/tt0381061 IMDB.com Image]

sorry buddy but its definately a HK USP Compact in this picture

== USP Running Empty ==

I know you do sometimes see semi auto pistols "clicking" empty in movies, but if it's not a .45, and he fired 8 rounds, wouldn't it simpler to assume it just failed to fire? He only fired 8 shots, wasn't really spraying, and he is a bomb maker as well as a free runner after all; someone who does those two things should be able to tell the difference between 8 and 13/14 rounds. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:36, 7 January 2012 (CST)

== PPK ==

How are we sure that the PPK used was chambered in 7.65? Its listed but i dont see any evidence to prove it, wouldnt it be better listed as just a PPK? -MissySummers- 18:51, 8 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:M16 rifle series

2012-01-09T00:47:34Z

StarSummers: /* Forward Assist */

==Additional Variants==
[[Image:BattleLA M16A4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M16A4 (5.56x45mm) with ACOG scope, RIS foregrip, Magpul MBUS rear sight, and AN/PEQ-15 IR designator as seen in ''[[Battle: Los Angeles]]'']]
[[Image:CustomNorthHollywoodAR15.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Custom AR-15/M16 Hybrid gun (5.56x45mm) made to resemble the firearm used by Emil Matasareanu in the 1997 North Hollywood Bank Of America Shootout, represented in the film ''[[44_Minutes:_The_North_Hollywood_Shootout|44 Minutes:The North Hollywood Shootout.]]'']]
[[Image:M4_SWAT-1-.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M4A1 with ACOG scope and Surefire M500AB weaponlight. This is one of the screen-used weapons seen in ''[[S.W.A.T. (film)|S.W.A.T.]]'' - 5.56x45mm.]]
[[Image:OlympicArmsAR15.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An Olympic Arms AR15 (note: Olympic arms did not renamed their rifles with the "K" designation until after the 1990s) with A2 Handguards and the Olympic Arms stowaway pistol grip - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M203xm177.jpg|thumb|none|600px|XM177 - 5.56x45mm with M203 grenade launcher 40mm]]
[[Image:UVARCarbine.jpg|thumb|600px|none|CAR-15 like the one used in ''[[Uncommon Valor]]'' - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M16A1M203ScarfaceCombo.jpg‎ |thumb|none|600px|World IMFDB Exclusive: Screen used Faux M203 Launcher with M16A1 with Quadrant and Front ladder sight - 5.56x45mm. This is verified screen used from the film ''[[Scarface]]''. Two 30 round magazines have been taped together with black gaffer's tape to emulate the way Tony Montana loaded his weapon in the film. What is interesting is that the tape in the movie does really appear to be motion picture gaffer's tape, which would only be common on ... a movie set.]]
[[Image:model 656.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M16A1 with 20-round magazine, fitted with scope - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M4 m203 old.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Model 727 - 5.56x45mm with [[M203 grenade launcher]] - 40mm]]
[[Image:607-2-sm-741x267.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Model 607 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:XM177_shorty.jpg|thumb|none|600px|CAR-15 SMG AIRSOFT RIFLE - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:Icsm4ris2006.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M4A1 AIRSOFT RIFLE with a RIS foregrip and AN/PEQ-2 IR designator - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:Mockcommando.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt XM177E2 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:GUU-5P.jpg|thumb|none|600px|GUU-5/P - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:Colt Law Enforcement Model 6920 Carbine..jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Law Enforcement Carbine with ACOG scope and PentagonLight MD3R weaponlight, screen-used weapon from ''[[I Am Legend]]'' - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M148.jpg|thumb|none|600px|XM177E2 - 5.56x45mm with a mounted [[XM148 grenade launcher]] - 40mm]]
[[Image:K3B.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Olympic Arms K3B carbine - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:101-rifle-c8fthb-carbine-6.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Canada C8A3 Carbine with EOTech red dot sight - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M16A4M203ACOG.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M16A4 rifle - 5.56x45mm with ACOG scope and M203 grenade launcher - 40mm]]
[[Image:CAXM177.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A Classic Army XM177 airsoft replica rifle - 5.56x45mm (of the type used by SF troops in some scenes of the movie ''[[Green Zone]]'').]]
[[Image:M653M203.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Model 653 5.56x45mm with magazine removed and M203 grenade launcher 40mm]]
[[Image:Cam15a4tacticalcarbine.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Classic Army M15A4 airsoft carbine rifle - 5.56x45mm]]
[[File:Colt AR15 Match Target Competition HBAR II 6731.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Colt AR15 Match Target HBAR II (Model MT6731) - 5.56x45mm]]
this is the marushin cap gun?--[[User:Kin93|Kin93]] 07:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
::Yes, you are right, it is, so this is one of the FIRST guns I need to photograph (a real one) and replace this Airsoft abomination. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually thats a ICS airsoft M4 with the grip and laser box....

An airsoft gun and a cap gun aren't the same thing. LOL [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:43, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

== Interesting ==
...I seriously doubt anyone will ever see an underslung version of the M203 used in a film, all by itself, ...

but there have been stand alone M203 launchers (modified with a pistol grip and stock like the M79LF 37mm launchers) as well as the M203 being attached to guns other than the M16 (take Rambo III for example where they attached it to an AK). Having a section on the M16 w M203 on the M16 page makes sense since that is where people will look if they're curious about that particular combo appearing in a movie. But I like having a separate page for the M203 to address more detailed history of the launcher plus any applications where the launcher is used with other weapons. Just a thought...
::We do need a page where M203s are used as stand alone launchers, rare, but it has happened. But we should shift all M203s underslung to M16s to the M16 Page and have a note directing users to that page when looking for that combination on the M203 page. Just IMHO.... [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 01:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense, that configuration. Also, there was a standalone M203 on Bones, and there might be others (sometime WAY in the future, when a director wants to use a "modern" version of an M79, like how James Cameron used the fictional roto-craft in place of the Huey).

== Do well really need to have an "A2" and "A3" category?==

[[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] has already explained that just about all of the "M16A2s" used in movies are actually A2 uppers on A1 lowers, often with A1 flash hiders. By this definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", and might actually be considered M16A3s roughly. But since they're usually seen impersonating M16A2s, I say designate by receiver style only (both the A2 and A3 have what is usually called the "A2 receiver").

In other words, I think we should ditch the M16A3 category completely. It makes no sense to distinguish between A2s and A3s when basically all of the "Hollywood" A2s and A3s are the same type of gun. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

:I never got anyone's feedback on this, but...I decided to go ahead and ditch the M16A3 entry, for the reasons I explained above. It doesn't make sense to try and distinguish between "A2s" and "A3s" in movies when MoviePropMaster has explained that they're all basically the same thing - A2-style uppers on fully automatic A1 lowers. By that definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", but since they're obviously supposed to portray such rifles in movies, it makes more sense to call them A2s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

::I agree, because the M16A3 was made for Navy SEALs and SeeBees, no civilian hands hae touched them. -Winchester (1-26-09)
I believe the 1995 remake of Village of the Damned portrayed the National Guard using burst fire. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

(the above was in reply to a comment that the author deleted as i posted.) --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

::Also I think Colt sold A3s to foreign entities, National police of allied countries, Elite units, etc. Any country with which we are friendly and Colt has sold weapons in the past. I've heard that A3s were sold as samples to France, U.K. and Germany (but that was a casual comment that I heard years ago). There 'could' be A3s in the armories of foreign movie productions. That is a completely grey area with which I have no one to verify anything. :( [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

:This is strange. I posted a comment here a couple hours ago, asking how many movies are there were burst fire is portrayed? I know Black Hawk Down has one instant. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
::I've seen some films that had three round burst fire. I will try to get the titles and list them [[Special:Contributions/205.172.16.102|205.172.16.102]] 01:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

There is a significant difference between a true A2 and A3 M16. Externally, they look identical, however the A3 is full auto and the A2 is 3 shot burst. Simply put: A1 and A3 are full auto, A2 and A4 are 3 shot burst. The external differences are what make it a little easier to identify. We all know what an A1, A2, and A4 M16 look like, but the A3 is just an A2 that is full auto. Hope this helps; Its my first time posting. --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 10:14, 29 October 2011 (CDT)

== The caption to the M16A1 w/ M16A2 handguards... ==
I was in the National Guard in the early '90's and that's exactly what we had. I was also issued an M16A1 with A2 handguards in basic training. It turns out that it's simpler and--from what I heard--cheaper to replace the 'A1 guards with 'A2 guards because the 'A2's are less complex and you only need to stock one type instead of 'lefts' and 'rights'. Also, the 'A1'a in the national guard were freshly rebuilt, tested, and had the serial numbers laser etched into the bolt carriers. They were issued with all 'A2 furniture.

:Yeah, I've seen plenty of A1s with A2 hand guards elsewhere. In fact, if you ever watch footage of the current offensive into Gaza, you can see both IDF personnel and Hamas militants using them. The Israelis received a lot of M16A1s and have updated many of them with the M16A2 hand guards. Many of these rifles were passed into Israeli's "allies" in Fatah, and then Hamas stole plenty of them during their war with Fatah (some were also probably stolen from the IDF themselves). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

just for the record here is an M16A1 with A2 handguards in service
[[Image:RP Marines assault line DM-SD-06-10463.JPEG|thumb|none|600px|RP Marines armed with M16A1s with A2 handguards.]]
--[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 22:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== Mark 12 Special Purpose Rifle ==

Does anyone have an image of one?
-[[User:AdAstra2009]]

:I put one on the ''[[Live Free or Die Hard]]'' page that I took from another site. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks I pasted it from that page but we should probably look into getting a noncopyrighted one.
-[[User:AdAstra2009]]

::Well, you can ask MoviePropMaster2008 if he has a Mark 12 upper in his company's inventory. I imagine he also knows armorers at Cinema Weaponry (the guys who supplied the weapons for ''[[Live Free or Die Hard]]''), so he might even be able to get us one of the same guns used in that movie. But he's very busy of course and has LOTS of other image requests to tend to, so it might be a while before he gets around to it. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

== Rate of Fire on the M16A1 ==
Does anyone know the rate of fire on the M16A1?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 22:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I assume it's about 800 rounds a minute [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 08:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

:That would be correct, it's around 750 to 800 RPM. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

== What is this? ==
It's not really from a movie, but a music video, and I havn't been able to figure out what this AR is yet, there are two others in the video, one's an M16A1, the other an A2, but I just can't figure this one out.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle1.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle2.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle3.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle4.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle5.JPG

Looks like an M733, what is this from? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 08:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:The gun in the first 'cap looks different from the CAR-15s in the other pictures. Maybe it's a fake XM177?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 12:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
::It's from the music video for Hero Of War by Rise Against, the main soldier uses it, his two buddies use an M16A1 and M16A2, I'm almost 100% sure there are only three rifles in the video. Yeah, I'm thinking M733 too... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]]

==XM607 Commando Carbine==
I do remember the weapon from ''[[Pink Caddilac]]'' an XM607, or an AR-15 modified to imitate one. The weapon may not have been officially adopted but kits were released to the public though:

* [http://totalsilenceinc.com/XM607_pages/questions.html 1]
* [http://www.retroblackrifle.com/ModGde/CrbGde/607.html 2]
* [http://www.fototime.com/A2FFCE89093C8E7/standard.jpg 3]

[[User:Cutaway|Cutaway]] 18:54PM, 3/7/2009 (UTC)

:I changed the entry after I watched the trailer for the movie. The trailer is on YouTube, and the gun in question is visible at the 00:27-00:28 mark:

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LddykTA8nVg

:That is definitely an older-model LaFrance Specialties M16K. It doesn't have the triangular front sight post of the XM607. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

==The Photoshopped M16 images==

Can people '''please''' stop posting the images of M16 variants that were edited using MPM's photos? There's a reason I've removed them before. We don't need to have every variant on the page, and many of them are inaccurate, anyway. The only one we allow is the XM16E1, because we don't have a good photo of one of those yet, and even that may get replaced. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

*The Colt 607 image I posted wasn't one of MPM's [unless someone stole it and re-hosted it], I got it from google. Only put it here because the page for the The World Is Not Enough videogame didn't have a 607 image. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 05:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

==Why do we have Colt Model 727 by itself==
When the Model 727 is just the commercial Colt name for the M4 carbine? it doesn't make sense to have the exact GUN made by Colt with it's commercial name (for law enforcement sales or international sales) with a separate category, when it should just be merged in with the M4/M4A1 category. The M16 page is getting out of control. MPM2008

:I agree that the Model 727 should be merged with the M4 category, but it's not exactly a commercial name for an M4. The Model 777 is the commercial name for the very first M4 (the one that didn't have the detachable carry handle). The 727 and 777 are identical, but the 727 is safe-semi-auto and the 777 is safe-semi-burst. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

:::Good point. But in the overall view, I think all that info (a) should be in the M4 category, (b) should be a footnote, NOT a separate category and (c) people are endlessly creating separate categories for weapons that are essentially the same guns as other categories. Experienced IMFDB users/Mods already know that most of the M16 variants seen in films are build ups of other guns. We usually just get the accessories and barreled uppers and put them on our full auto or semi auto lowers. Why spend thousands to get new guns when we're sitting on dozens and dozens of other M16s? Also, in VideoGames and Anime, again, they don't have to specify the new or commercial model unless it's specifically stated or named explicitly. Even then it can be a footnote in the original category.

==Adding images==

I'm getting a little annoyed with people adding images we don't need on the page, including many that are crap and which aren't necessary. Not to mention that half of them aren't even using the "<nowiki>br clear=all</nowiki>" command to ensure that the images won't drift into the next gun entry. So, I'm putting a stop to this now. No more without talking about it here first. Next person who doesn't respect my wishes gets a 1-week time out. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

:They're still doing it. I have removed the custom A1 upper mounted on an SP1 lower with A2 handguards from this page several times. It is not a common real like frankengun (but it has happened). I originally built this and photographed it for the HEAT page until better screenshots proved that Wes Studi's AR15 was an A1 style lower, not an SP1. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 21:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, for some reason, these users seem to think that every single picture of a gun needs to be on it's page. It especially frustrates me when they're sticking all customized guns that only appear in one movie onto a page, they may look cool, but they're not even standard configurations! All they end up doing is turning the gun page into a cluttered, sloppy mess of pictures, I mean just look at the [[Remington 870]] and [[Mossberg 500]] pages.--[[User:Alienqueen11|Alienqueen11]] 22:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Would it be alright if I added the following image to the [[M16 rifle series#M4/M4A1 with M203 Grenade Launcher|M4/M4A1 with M203 Grenade Launcher]] section?

[[Image:Sopmod m4 m203 06.jpg|thumb|none|350px|M4A1 5.56x45mm with M68 Aimpoint red dot scope, flip-up rear sight, and M203 grenade launcher 40mm]]

Figured that since the other sections on the page have pics of the 'basic' and 'tricked-out' versions, why not this one? [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 21:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have any pictures of a heavily modified M4 style platform? ex- The Unit, BlackHawk Down, Tears of the Sun? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 17:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

So why not update this page to include current issue M16A4 rifles?
(unless you don't know what they are....)

==A Warm Thank-You==
For years I have been trying to find out what the guns were Peter & Roger used in Dawn of the Dead. This site solved what the problem so many other "gun experts" on IMDb could not. Again, thank you.
:Thats what IMFDB is for =) --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 18:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

==Let's See If You Can Figure This Out==
I couldn't find a real picture so I put this together. Its an M4A1 with the old style stock, and a straight (no cuts) 16" barrel; or its a Sporter (or one of those older three number ones like that) with a removable carry handle; take your pick. I was just wondering what it actually is...

P.S. Every detail is intentional and exactly how its supposed to be even though its not a real picture, just so everyone knows that. ;)
[[Image:M4A1COD4.jpg]]

:It would be a hybrid commercial AR variant. It has an M16A1 style lower receiver, so it is NOT a Sporter I or II. Basically, it's an M4 Carbine with a flat top and detachable carry handle, with an old style buttstock and a civilian HBAR Carbine barrel outfitted with RIS forearms. Various manufacturers made similar guns to this design, like Bushmaster and a few others. Also many builders of AR15s made similar guns from parts kits from M&A, Patriot Arms, (the now defunct Nesard), Sun Valley, and others. With the advent of custom builds from aftermarket parts from dozens of manufacturers, the AR15 has become the ultimate "mutt". I can tell you this is NOT an issued military variant, so it would NOT have an "M" designation unless it was built from an M4 to begin with. Also nearly everyone uses the step down M4 style barrels for carbines, unless it's the ultra light. The HBAR Carbine style barrels are becoming rarer by the day since their heyday was the 1990s. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot, very informative answer. This is the "M4 Carbine" in Call Of Duty 4, and I've been trying to figure out exactly what it really is for a while. I didnt say where it was from because I figured the answer I'd get would be something like "its a videogame, so its probably not a real model", but I knew that ;) I like the look and have been trying to make it as an airsoft project, this helps a lot... too bad airsoft HBAR barrels are very hard to come by. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 07:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

:::How did you make that? At first I thought it was Pimp My Gun, but PMG doesn't have an M16A1 pistol grip yet. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 14:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

::::No, you thought right my friend, it is Pimp My Gun, I just used MS Paint to remove the little finger nub and made the HBAR barrel by copying and pasting the largest part of the barrel over the rest of it. That's all the "photoshopping" that I did. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 07:45, 13
February 2010 (UTC)
::If it's from CoD4, then blame lack of details on modelers that made that gun model. They simply saved some poligons for improved performance of the game. Same thing with lack of gas-block when front sight is removed. It supposed to be M4A1 and i'm 100% sure they had pictures of military issued M4A1's as a reference.
:::I'm sure they wanted it to be an M4A1, but I've seen a lot of movies where HK94s were converted to be MP5s, or 92FSs were converted to be 93Rs and last I checked on this site we identify guns on what they are, not what they're supposed to be... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:03, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== M16A1 series' portray ==

In the present, does anyone think that like the Ak47 and its variants, the M16A1 series is sometimes stereotypically portrayed as a bad guy's gun?
I've seen the IRA, FARC guerillas, Mexican drug lords and some gangbangers use them.
Overall is this true?
:In the real world, the USSR dumped millions of AKs into the hands of satellite states and insurgents around the world. In the Vietnam and immediate post Vietnam years the U.S. dumped millions of M16A1s to our allies. With the fall of Vietnam, all of the South Vietnamese M16A1s ended up in the hands of communist guerillas (as well as the AK). The AK and the M16 were the most prolifically distributed weapons of the last 50 years. There is no conspiracy to make them 'look bad'. They're in the hands of everyone so it is invevitable.
:Even Iran uses a variant of the M16A1, a copy of the Norinco CQ called the ''S-5.56'', as their standard rifle. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

== AR Series firing 5.7 Ammo??? ==

I was in a gun shop in Michigan today and saw a weapon with an AR-15 type body but with the mag of a P-90 running along the rail. I asked the guy at the shop and he did confirm the weapon did fire the 5.7 round. Anyone have any idea who makes the weapon and what it may be called? Incidentally the store was The Firing Line in Westland Michigan. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 03:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
::They sell those uppers here in California all the time. My local gun store has 5.7mm firing AR15 uppers that take the P90 magazine. But I never bothered to check who made it, that's what GOOGLE is for. I just never had an interest [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

:I have seen examples of this conversion as well. It is actually a specially-made upper receiver that can be mounted onto pretty much any AR-15 style lower receiver. The magazine mounts along the top of the weapon as with the P90, and the original magazine well in the lower receiver becomes the ejection port with the spent brass falling down through there instead of being spit out to the side. As for the manufacturer, I can't quite recall who makes it, but it is definitely quite an interesting piece of hardware. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As long as my memory goes, is called the AR-57 and is manufactured by 57Center, or something like that --[[User:Yocapo32|Yocapo32]] 15:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

::I remember when Impact Guns got those in. You can buy them here: http://www.impactguns.com/store/AR-57%20UR.html

::The manufacturer's web site, as Yocapo32 pointed out, is 57 Center. Their web site is here: http://www.57center.com/

::What's interesting is that the AR magazine well is where the brass gets ejected. The only problem I can see with having a P90 magazine mounted on top is that it leaves limited rail space on top for mounting accessories. You could have a scope or iron sights, and not much else. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info guys, again, I know this was not germane to the topic, it was just a little odd to see something like that as I had never heard of it before. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 16:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

==Stolen M4A1s==

In real life is there ever any incidents where police have seized M4A1 carbines from criminials or terrorists during raids?

:Do you mean mil-spec M4s, as opposed to semi-auto AR-15 carbines that are patterned after the M4? I would doubt it. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 21:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

::Never, or else it has never been reported anywhere, ever. And I am talking about real select fire 14.5" barreled M4/M4A1 carbines. However, California has had a rash of MP5s and MP5Ks stolen out of police cars, which were left unlocked when the cops were in a strip club. Seriously. they have not shown up since....[[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

==Suitable combat weapon==

Which weapon is considered better for infantry? An M16A1/M203 combo or an OICW?
:M16A1/M203. The XM29 weighs damn near 20 lbs., compared to 8 or 9 lbs. for the M16 when fitted with a 203. Fire control system or not, the last thing I'd want to be stuck with on a 60 mile march is an F-ing 20 lbs. rifle. And sign your posts by typing four '''~''' after them. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

:The M16/M203 combo is definitely superior; it has been proven in real-world combat situations over the last 30-plus years, whereas the only live-fire situation the XM29 has seen at the most is at the Aberdeen testing ranges. The closest replacement the M16/M203 will likely see anytime soon is an [[FN SCAR]]/[[Heckler & Koch M320|M320]], and even then the SCAR is only in limited use with the 75th Ranger Regiment at present. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 05:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The real question is whether or not the XM8 Carbine is better than the M4A1/derivatives (H&K 416, REC7, etc). And we probably won't ever know.

Also, the OICW was more of a man-portable version of a Doom gun than anything that you would actually bother carrying on duty. 20mm airburst auto-loader, saboted sub-5.56mm rounds? What could you use that for other than trying to clear a drug cartel's fortified mansion by yourself?

[[Special:Contributions/72.189.150.170|72.189.150.170]]

:One of the many things that led to the death of the XM29 was its sheer size. The Army wanted it scaled down to the size of an M4 [http://www.ghostrecon.net/images_arms/xm29_1.jpg] and 14 lbs max (which an M4 with all its mods gets pretty close to), but with today's technology, it just wasn't possible. Maybe in 20 years or so it will be, but the XM29 is presently dead for the foreseeable future. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

== Installation of a front Flip up/down Iron sights. ==

I was watching The Losers, and while I agree that those 4 characters all had M4A1s, they seemed to switch between fixed front sight and flip up/down iron sights. I was wondering how hard it would be to take an M4A1, remove the front factory sight and replace it with a flip up/down sight. I know it's pretty easy for the rear sight, but I wasn't sure about the front sight. (OK, I also want to ask this question because I, like many people, have played Modern Warfare 2 and seen the M4 with a flip up/down front sight.) --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 03:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:Not really that difficult. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 04:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:I believe the process would involve removing the muzzle brake and the existing front sight/gas block assembly and replacing it with a gas block that has either a rail to mount your choice of front sight, or a folding front sight, then reinstalling the muzzle brake. You can find instructional videos for this process at various gunsmithing websites. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 14:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

== Forward Assist ==
Does anyone know when reloading if it is a good idea to hit the forward assist after hitting the bolt release or its ok just to start firing after hitting the bolt release?

:The idea behind hitting the forward assist after reloading is to ensure the bolt is fully seated and that the weapon is ready to fire. It's generally not really nessicary at the range, but when in a combat situation where you might have dirt or whatnot fouling the chamber, it's a good idea to do that to ensure that the weapon will fire when you need it to.[[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 23:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

:The M16 series are the ONLY assault rifles (except the [http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83:g41-series&catid=8:the-automatic-rifles&Itemid=5/ HK G41], which is made to be like the M16 and is no longer produced) in the world to have a forward assist. Why don't other assault rifles have a forward assist? (ie. the AK-74, G36 etc.) Because other assault rifles are more reliable and don't need it. :)
::Uh more associated with the design of the Bolt than being more reliable. The AK series have a bolt handle attached DIRECTLY to the bolt carrier as do many other designs. If there is debris or fouling in the chamber which keeps a round from seating properly you can just jam the handle forward (I've done this in the field when my AK / Garand / Galil / M 14 / etc jammed) I once had a tiny piece of bark (I was firing under trees) which fell from above and fell into the ejection port and made the round 'stick' really badly in the chamber so that it would not seat properly. The M16 design has no way other than the forward assist to nudge the bolt & carrier forward enough to fire and kick that crap free of the action. But I wouldn't bash the M16 as an "unreliable" rifle. I'd sure take it into battle right now. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 20:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Alright, I understand. thanks for the extra info. I'm not saying the M16/M4 is a complete piece of crap, but it's definitely not the BEST ASSAULT RIFLE IN THE WORLD! like we Americans like to state all the time (*rolls eyes*). You and me both know the M16/M4 is no where as reliable as the G36 or the AK series. But at least it's better than the L85 series, now that's a piece crap rifle. :D *Edit: Well at least the L85A1, the L85A2 is OK. kinda like the M16/M16A1s sucks but the M16A2/A4s are good.

::::I have to completely disagree with what you say, i don't wish to come off as passive aggresive but you sound like a mall ninja that learned their weapons knowledge from seeing them perform in videogames or hearing public opinions on weapons from the news or other sources. The M16 family of rifles are both fine and fairly reliable weapons, while much of that view has been skewed by the fact they were portrayed as unreliable during conflicts such as Vietnam, is incorrect to a degree. The M16 is a reliable and capable weapon when cleaned and properly maintained, it simply lacks the ability to stay so when not properly serviced, as some other rifles such as the AKM can function fine without cleaning, the M16 can not. As for your comment on the L85 series, yes they were somewhat poor and unreliable weapons at first, coupled with poor grips and clumsy to handle for certain users, however the newer models have made large improvements and are very capable firearms. As i feel it needs to be said (or typed) a common mistake people make is assuming that militaries have access and funding to field their troops with the best weapons available, which is not always the case as most countries don't have the money to field an Army with rifles that can cost up to $5000-10000 per unit. Which is where the workhorses like M16's come in, you go for the "good" rifle not the "great" one. Also, although off-topic it somewhat pertains to the M16, most mall ninja's assume the AK-family is better because it is more reliable and fires a heavier cartridge, I've always asked "would you want a round that's going to pierce right through an enemy and leave an easy to treat wound, or have a round that hits an enemy and fragments inside them causing an ungodly bloody mess?" Hopefully esteemed imfdb members such as MPM2008 will agree with and share my viewpoint concerning this subject, as well as not condemn me for my long comment. [[User:Doc345|Doc345]] 13:24, 06 March 2011 (UTC)

::::The issues of jamming during the Vietnam War had more to do with ammunition and the lack of a chrome-lined chamber and barrel than the rifle's so-called "dirty" gas system. In 1964 the Army switched from stick powder to ball powder, which increased the rate of fire to over 1,000 RPM and left a lot of dirty residue in the weapon. This was only exacerbated by the lack of cleaning kits and training on how to maintain the weapon. They fixed the issue by fitting the rifle with a buffer system (which slowed the ROF down) and chrome-plated chamber. Training programs in weapon maintenance were instituted and an instruction book on how to maintain the rifle was circulated among troops. After further modifications resulted in the M16A1, many of the reliability issues disappeared (although even today, the weapon has yet to shed its bad reputation). The M16A2, A3, A4, and M4 carbine of today are an entirely different breed of warrior than the prototypes that were issued back in the 60s. While it may admittedly be a bit finicky, the M16 today is a good weapon. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:29, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

:::::Yeah but it's still a very fussy weapon, it's not very durable, and it has much more malfunctions/jams then say the H&K G36, but none the less it's still a excellent weapons platform, mostly. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:28, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

::::: I was always taught that the forward assist, while useful in combat, in situations where dirt or grime can jam a weapon, overall, if you DO need to use it, its a good indication of a malfunction and should be addressed, especially if its at a range. Theres a video somewhere on youtube, of a guy shooting some sort of AR, and repeatedly hits the forward assist, without clearing or checking the bore, until the entire gun explodes, probably from a round hitting one stuck in the bore. -MissySummers- 18:47, 8 January 2012 (CST)

== The comment about the SPR Mk 12 shooting full auto... ==

The design--at least the original ones--used a match grade trigger group that actually fired full auto.

If my Web Fu is correct, NSN 1005-01-562-0901 from Knight's Armament.

The original, intended purpose was to allow the uppers to be swapped out for a short barreled model initially so a marksman could use a short range weapon on the way in and out and the more accurate upper at the objective.

Sources: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=003aa7475e95c9b56d5814227cc5d4ec&tab=core&_cview=0

::https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=fbd46923c9e6d18cd916b8a6e7d3cfdf&tab=core&_cview=0

States the Special Purpose Receiver (Early designs) specifies:

"(C) OTHER PERFORMANCE GOALS: (1) Increased reliability, durability, corrosion resistance, ease of cleaning, lubricity/reduced friction; fully functional for a minimum of 15,000 rounds (Threshold)/30,000 rounds (Objective), performing up to the standards and firing rates to be published in the Solicitation, functional reliability exceeding that of the standard M4A1 carbine at high and low temperature extremes as well as other hostile (sand/dust/dirt/mud/surf) environmental conditions (2) Improved safety- delay cook-off, fail-safe features, fires/functions safely and without delay of draining in the Over-The-Beach (surf zone, weapon flooded with water) environment. (3) User Acceptance: operational suitability, increased live-fire hit scores, decreased live-fire engagement times, speed/accuracy of engagement, '''controllability in semi-automatic and full automatic fire''', improved handling qualities, light weight, snag free in movement through vegetation and battlefield obstacles." (Accent added)"

== Standard Issue M4 vs. M4A1 ==

Does the Army issue regular infantry (i.e. 4th Inf. Div.) the three-round burst M4 or the M4A1? I always thought it was the M4A1 (and please forgive me if I got to the party late), but from what I've read, it seems like they issue the regulars the Model 920, leaving the 921 for Special Forces and the like. -

i think it all depends on the on-base armory. for example some armory's might still have some M4s. but i think the regular infantry does use the M4A1. however. Special forces dont use the M4A1 or the M4. they use the hK416/417. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 17:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Though I don't know for certain, I wouldn't imply Spec-Ops units use ''only'' the new HK rifles - As you've said, it all depends on what's around, and to a degree what the soldiers prefer (in the case of Special units). Though the aforementioned HK rifles are in inventory, that doesn't automatically cancel the M4s out - some personnel might still use 'em. Plus there are other weapons around, namely the FN SCAR series. Though I would agree use of the M4 with Special Forces probably isn't as common these days. As for a regular-issue weapon, I agree that the M4 and M4A1 are both in use nowadays, with the A1 perhaps being more prominent. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:40, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

::Actually, Stan, my understanding is that it's the opposite. The M4 is the most common version, not the M4A1. U.S. military doctrine still discourages full-auto for infantry rifles, so it seems unlikely to me that the M4A1 is going to be more common. As for the SCAR, SOCOM just decided this past June that they weren't going to order any more SCAR-Ls for the foreseeable future, which means that even amongst most SF units, the M4 will remain their standard weapon. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Well, I wasn't too sure, but I guess that does make sense to stick with the burst-fire M4. Good point. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 01:51, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The only SF unit that uses the M4 (920) that I can think of is the Asymmetric Warfare Group, but that's only 'cause they had to hand in their HK416s. According to a book I've got, that decision went over like a lead balloon with the AWG. -

thank god. im not a huge fan of the SCAR-L i find it pointless. if you want to go with a new alternative to the M4/M16. why the hell would you take an unfamiliar weapon. alas the hK416. same rate of fire. same Picatanny rail, same attachments, same stock, same barrel, same trigger group, and extremely similiar internals. and Stan, i do agree. if i made it sounds like all SF use the hK416, i didnt mean to. i/we really DONT no what they all use. they pick their own. they could carry an AK-47 or a CAR-15 if they wanted to. we cant make generalizations about units that get custom made equipment. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 20:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

- No prob, dude - I'm just glad you got what I was gettin' at. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

i would be shocked if they couldnt pick their weapons. their the best soldiers on the planet. it just doesnt make sense not to be able to. it would be like giving a star baseball player a 10 dollar glove. itll do but why wouldnt they get the best thats out there. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 01:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Reg army units use the burst M4, not the full auto A1. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

A couple of months ago when I was at a military base there were Marines conducting a weapons demo with the M4 carbine. It was the 3-round burst rifle, but a question came up about the M4A1. One Marine said that they got rid of all M4A1s and only have M4s. I personally don't see the need for a full-auto rifle and 3-round burst is fine because it forces the user to slow down and most of the time the user uses semi-only, combat or not, but that is my opinion. The M4A1 is still probabley used by the US Military, but I'm not sure, I haven't seen one in a long time.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:29, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

== Colt Accurized Rifle ==

After seeing several pages of real firearms appearing in only one film or game, I was wondering if I should expand this page with a new section for the [http://www.colt.com/law/car.asp Colt Accurized Rifle], which to my knowledge has only ever appeared in [[S.W.A.T. 4]]. Before I do that, I need to confirm two things:

*Is the Colt Accurized Rifle indeed another variant on the M16 line of rifles, or a separate take on the AR-15 design altogether? I suppose there's a reason why we don't include the [[Z-M LR 300]] in the M16 page because it's the latter--I need to know if the Colt Accurized Rifle falls in that category.
*Including it on this page would make it the first Designated Marksman Rifle variant here. So far I only see assault rifles or carbines here. Would including a DMR in this page be a problem or not?

If there are no real problems, I'll make a new section for it, but I have no idea where I'll get a non-copyright infringment image of one. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

:It'd be the '''second''' DMR on the page. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, but can someone confirm that the Colt Accurized Rifle is indeed descended from the M16 line of assault rifles and not a separate take on the AR-15 design like the aforementioned LR-300 is? I still have no idea where I can get a photo of this DMR that respects copyright. All I have are game screenshots. Some help here, please? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

== Removeable Carry Handle for Colt 9mm SMG? ==

Does such a Gun exist?

:Not as a production gun (Colt's website makes no mention of one, anyway), but the modular nature of the AR system makes such a configuration entirely possible. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 14:46, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

==Why do we have a Colt AR-15 SP1 category that is separate from the M16/SP1 category?==
The guns look the same, sure the SP1 had a design change in 1978 (three prong flash hider was changed to birdcage, rear sling swivel was changed to A1 style and the color went from greenish grey to straight grey) but unless we see the stamp on the side that says "Property of U.S. Government" we can't tell if it's a real M16 (which WERE sold via Title II dealers to armories) and a Colt AR15 SP1 which was converted to full auto (which was done A LOT prior to 1986). [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:10, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

== About M4 Commando and M16A4 Full Auto ==

Full Auto M16A4 (Model 905) is [http://www.colt.com/mil/M16_2.asp Model 901]

[http://www.colt.com/mil/M4Com_2.asp Model 933] ''is'' M4 Commando (Full Auto)

[http://www.colt.com/mil/home.asp Manufacturer's site] says it all.

== Colt Model 653 barrel length ==

Am trying to pin down what a gun is for a page I'm working on. It has a forward assist but no deflector, A1 rear sight, M4 length tubular handguard, 16" barrel with birdcage flash hider and a solid stock. Basically it matches the gun in the picture for the Model 653 on the main page, apart from having a solid stock but that is easily changeable. However, every source I can find about the 653 says that it has a 14" barrel. Was the gun made in different barrel lengths but kept the same designation, and if not, anyone know what the gun is that is pictured as a 653? Also, while I'm on the topic of obscure colt carbines, does anyone know of a model that will match a 725 (original C8 without the flat-top) but has an A2 rear sight? Thanks, --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:16, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

== Can anyone figure out what this is? ==

I found this hidden in my computer, I think it's a Colt Canada C7A1 as a base, I can tell it's C7 because of the Canadian leaf on the the lower receiver, it would be an A1 because of the removable carrying-handle. What the heck is that hand-guard? - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:02, 28 April 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:Colt Canada C7A1 SPW.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Canada C7A1 SPW?]]

:Colt Model 750/Diemaco C7 Light Support Weapon - A modified C7 with an enlarged gas tube (hence the square handguard) and a heavy barrel for sustained fire in the squad automatic weapon role. The C7 LSW is not used by the Canadian Forces but has seen service with the Dutch and Danish militaries. --[[User:Markit|Markit]] 01:34, 28 April 2011 (CDT)

::Ha! I thought so, thanks. :) Should I remove this section or keep it. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:53, 28 April 2011 (CDT)

:That's not Colt LSW, that's [http://www.colt.com/mil/CAR.asp Colt Automatic Rifle]. Follow the link and you will see that the image is the larger version of the official one. Meanwhile, [http://www.coltcanada.com/lsw-page.htm Colt LSW] has optional folding carry handle. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 09:09, 29 April 2011 (CDT)

::Thanks guys. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:02, 29 April 2011 (CDT)

:Just to clarify, the Colt automatic rifle, LSW and LMG are all the same weapon. The original version that looks like the one above was the Colt Model 750, which featured a fixed A2 carry handle and barrel mounted bi-pod, and the newer version above is the current production Model 950, with the relocated bi-pod and A4 rear sights. As you said, the folding carry handle is removeable, and the picture on the Colt website is just one without it fitted (note the longer centre vent on the top of the handguard is the mounting point for the handle). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 02:48, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

::The original version was based on M16A1:

::[[File:M16A1 CAR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

::The one you described was based on M16A2:

::[[File:M16A2 CAR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

Guys, remember back in the 1980s when Colt was trying to vie for the SAW role? Sure the FN Minimi was never knocked off its perch, but Colt came out with a Colt light Machine gun that looked a lot like this. They were selling the barreled uppers on the market for a while in the early 1990s (I know a few friends who have them, but I never got one). This looks like that reincarnated!!! LOL![[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:24, 29 April 2011 (CDT)

:Well, that's all written on [http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/m16-lsw-lmg-e.html Modern Firearms] :P

::Ah yes, you only read about it monkeyboy ;) I was handling and firing that sucker! LOL [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 03:11, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

:Oh, and I've found articles of why AR is more advantageous than SAW to US Marine Corps:

:[http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/m249-employment-concepts M249 Employment Concepts]
:[http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/m249-light-machinegun-automatic-rifle-role The M249 Light Machinegun In The Automatic Rifle Role]

:Interesting reading, methinks :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:13, 30 April 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah it was. :) You know, I kinda knew LMGs were dying out. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:07, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

::: Not overall, it's just the role they are being used in (automatic rifleman). SAW is still very good in defensive role and laying fire on attacking forces ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:33, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

== Heat Dissipation Performance of Carbine Barrel Types? ==

I was wondering, does anyone know what kind of effects the 'cuts' (originally meant for the mounting of the M203 grenade launcher) in the barrel of the M4 and similiarly-styled M16 & AR-15 series carbines has on the heat dissipation performance of the barrel? Do the cuts help the weapon release heat from prolonged firing better than a barrel that has a uniform thickness, or does it hamper that? Any input anyone can provide on this would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:46, 8 May 2011 (CDT)
:The step down for the grenade launcher is actually pretty negligible in terms of cooling (although it does create a point of weakness to bending), as what you can't see is the fact that as soon as the barrel goes under the handguard it is reduced down to the same narrow diameter as in the cut out, which creates a much bigger effect on cooling. The narrower profile sections have the effect of cooling down the barrel quicker, but they also conversely mean that the barrel heats up quicker, and the heat has a larger effect on the accuracy of the gun. The main advantage however is that it reduces the weight quite a bit. The original reason that the M4 barrel reduces in size behind the handguard is based on the M16A2, which does exactly the same thing where its heavy barrel is actually only thicker past the front sight. This was due to a cock up in the design, where they designed the gun with a full thickness straight barrel, and found that they could then no longer clamp the M203 to the barrel, so the barrels were simply turned down from behind the front sight post. The front of the barrel was left thick due to the fact that the thinner barrels on the M16A1 were being bent at the front from being used as pry-bars to get the loading bands off of shipping pallets. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 04:53, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

:There is a heavier "SOCOM-profile" barrel that maintains the same diameter beneath the handguards as the standard M4-profile barrel does around the M203 cut and it can mount the M203 just fine.[http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-M4-14SOCOM-2.jpg] [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:40, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

== can you tell me what model of m16/car 15 this is ==

sorry i do not have a pic but i can tell you what is like. me and my dad were talikng about some of the guns he used in the army and he was telling me about this one he said was like an carbine version of the m16a2 and it was like the m4 but had a fixed carring handle and it was used befor the m4 it had safe semi and burst and he said it just had ar15 on the side.-Steviebleckley

:Sounds like the first batch of M4s that were delivered. This is the Colt Model 777, which is basically an M4 with a fixed carry handle, and 3-round burst as opposed to full auto. It is the brother of and visually identical to the 727 mentioned on the main page, where the 727 as full auto as opposed to the burst. If it didn't have the M4 profile barrel though, god knows. Probably a model 654 on an M16 lower receiver or something. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 15:02, 13 June 2011 (CDT)

yes it had the same profile as the m4. i gess it was the 777.I will show him the pic of the the 727 since there the same well the 727 is full auto thanks for the info - Steviebleckley

== Question about the buffer tube ==

I'm not one hundred percent sure what it does, and (like the forward assist) that almost no other guns have it. If someone could just clarify, what does it do, why does this rifle series have it, and why don't others/what replaces the buffer tube in other rifles? Thank you in advance. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 07:27, 12 July 2011 (CDT)
:Basically, it was installed in order to slow down the rate of fire. The very first M16s ended up using a different ammunition powder than they were designed for, which caused a higher rate of fire than desired (about 800 to 1000 rpm I think), leading to excessive fouling in the chamber, and hence lots of stopages. From the M16E1 onwards a buffer tube was added to slow the rate of fire to about 600-700 rpm, and a chrome lined chamber and barrel was added as well. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:47, 12 July 2011 (CDT)
I'm not sure if this is practical in any way, or even possible, but is their a way to increase the rate of fire on an M16 without the problems of the carbon build-up in the chamber?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:29, 21 July 2011 (CDT)
:Why would you want to increase the rate of fire? - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:40, 22 July 2011 (CDT)
No reason, just wondering if it's even possible with a full-auto M16.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 08:09, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:Probably, I see no reason why you couldn't. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:40, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'm assuming the reason that the high rate of fire caused fouling was that the rate of fire was so quick that the bolt was unlocking and opening before all the powder was fully burnt in the chamber, leaving residue. I'd imagine that you could increase the rate of fire by removing the buffer, and just make sure that whatever powder you were using was fully burnt in the time it takes the bolt to open. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:29, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::That would make sense, since I heard the nightmare version of that was when the gas pressure was still holding the spent case in place while the extractor was trying to eject it, which tended to result in Horrible Things happening to the case while it was still inside the rifle. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:08, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

This might be a silly question, but why is it that the AR-15 design required the buffer tube, and other rifles do not? Is it just located differently, and if so why? It just strikes me that the lack of a folding stock option is a poor design, especially when compared to most assault rifles designed today, SCAR, ACR, etc. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 18:57, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'm guessing here, but from what I've read it's that the rifle had already been designed, so they had to work inside the box, as it were. The only options were either to make the components of the action a lot heavier so their momentum prevented the weapon cycling too fast (which would rather defy the point of using a lightweight aluminium receiver and suchlike) or add something on to slow it down, which is what they did. Rifles designed since have been designed from the ground up to avoid this kind of problem, so don't need to have a tube attached to a hole in the back of the receiver to fix them. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:08, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

:The buffer tube does two things: 1) contains the buffer and spring and 2) allows the bolt carrier to recoil part of the way into it. The combination means that the AR15-series rifles are functionally a long-recoil design where the bolt does not slam into anything rigid during recoil and stops based on the pressure of the buffer spring. This--in turn--enhances the straight-line recoil and therefore controllability during automatic fire or rapid semi-automatic fire. It also allows the AR15 design to use the rear of the bolt carrier to actuate the automatic sear meaning the probability in this design that you can set a round off with the bolt unlocked during automatic fire is nil. (Look up some of the problems with the "Lightning Link" to get a better idea of why this works the way it does.)

:Other designs often do incorporate additional recoil buffers in the stock, the FN FAL's without folding stocks do this and the plastic-stocked SAW's, but the AR15 design simply trades the ability to fold a stock for enhanced recoil handling... The idea behind the design was to make a weapon where the entire recoil force is in a direct line between your shoulder and the end of the barrel with as little jarring as possible. This is also one reason for the use of a direct gas impingement system and one reason why gas-piston AR's tend to eat the front of the buffer tube and buffer tube area of the lower receiver due to bolt carrier "tilt". The "lateral" forces of the piston tapping the top of the bolt carrier misaligns the bolt carrier off its straight line path and pushes that chunk of steel into the aluminum.

:Oh, and the forward assist is to compensate for not having a rigidly connected bolt handle. (Like someone already mentioned). The reason why is the design is meant to be operated in a manner where you ONLY use the charging handle for initial loading and then unloading at the end (administratively). Every other time, you actuate the bolt using the bolt release on the left side of the weapon... --[[User:Deathbunny|Deathbunny]] 01:28, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

== Noob Question ==

Ok I have a really dumb question, what is the difference between the Colt M4A1 and the Colt M4A1 Carbine? Or are they the same exact thing? The only reason I asked is when I was looking at the page, the M4A1 and the M4 Carbine look exactly the same, so how can you tell one from the other? - [[User:1morey]] July 22, 2011 11:21 AM (EST)

: The M4A1 and M4A1 'Carbine' are the same thing, the 'carbine' is just optionally showing the proper firearm type. As for the M4 and M4A1, well it ''does'' say the difference in the section but to answer - the M4 has Safe-Semi-Burst fire selection ala the M16A2/M16A4, the M4A1 has full-automatic instead of burst, ala the earlier M16s/M16A1/M16A3. Otherwise they're pretty much identical appearance wise (The M4A1 also has a heavier barrel inside the handguard, which of course you can't tell from the outside). It also notes some commercial AR-15 carbines are given an 'M4' moniker, but aren't the same as actual military M4s. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 12:17, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

== Colt or not? ==

If a M4 or M16 variant is listed on a page, should it by prefixed by Colt? I've noticed some people doing this but isn't it incorrect as the term M16 is the army designation as opposed to the Colt name (for example the Colt Model 603 for the M16A1). Either way, I would imagine that quite a few M16s or M4s in movies are manufactured by companies other than Colt, and even the US military rifles are not necessarily made by Colt these days. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:43, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

:I am curious... if the military M4 and M16 are not made by Colt these days then by whom? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:58, 6 September 2011 (CDT)

::There was a stretch in the 1990s when Colt lost the military contract and all the M16s were built by Fabrique Nationale (FN). Though many companies build AR15 platforms, only the company who has the contract with the Dept. of Defense can call the M16 theirs. If there ARE any other manufacturers being represented on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, someone needs to find out. I certainly don't have any contacts who would know information which is THAT current. :( [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:48, 6 September 2011 (CDT)

:::FN have stated that “the vast majority of M16A2, A3 and A4 contracts as well as spare parts contracts for these systems since 1989”, and they had a $7 million contract to make M16A4s between 2005 and 2008. Sabre defence also won a contract for a minimum of 4,952 M16A3 and 702 M16A4 rifles in July 2008 for the US navy/Marine corps respectively. Having said that FN also stated: ”...never was FN Manufacturing LLC, or any other small arms manufacturer, awarded M4 contracts. The M4 cannot be competed and always has been awarded sole source to Colt because of licensing rights restricting full and open competition until 2009” although it has stated its intention to bid for M4 contracts past this point. The US government took ownership of the M4 design on the 1st July 2009, so the M4 can now be manufactured for the government by other companies, but I don't know if this has actually been done yet. Regardless, M4 and M16 are government designations, so surely calling a gun a "Colt M4" is incorrect? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:09, 6 September 2011 (CDT)

::::Just checked the United States Army [http://www.army.mil/features/ official website]. It lists [http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/individual/m4.html M4 Carbine] as being manufactured by Colt and [http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/individual/m16.html M16 Rifle] by Colt and Fabrique Nationale.
::::Oh, and take a note of M16: ''"The '''M-16A3''' is identical to the M-16A2 but has a removable carrying handle that is mounted on a Picatinny Rail (for better mounting of optics) and is without burst control. The '''M-16A4''' is identical to the M-16A2 except for the removable carrying handle and Picatinny Rail."''
::::United States Marine Corps websites: [http://www.marines.mil/] [http://www.marines.com/] don't mention the current manufacturer for [http://www.marines.com/main/index/winning_battles/gear/weapons_and_equipment/m16 M16 Rifle]. So I am not sure about them. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:24, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::Just to throw a bit of confusion in here, there are actually a number of different rifles designated as the M16A3 by the US military. The first is the Colt Model 646, also known as the M16A2E3, which was introduced in small numbers at the same time as the M16A2 and is an A2 with an A1 lower. Then you have the flat-top Colt Model 901 which was introduced at the same time as the M16A4 (in 1994 I think) and I'm assuming this is the version that the above page refers to. You also have the Colt Models 941 and 942 which are the HBAR and HBAR LMG models respectively, but I don't know if they are used. Not that any of this really matters as we identify all these guns as A2/A4 anyway. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 03:24, 7 September 2011 (CDT)
::::::Well, that's because armorers don't have access to military M16A3s, so they just slap A2/A4 uppers to A1 lowers (correct?) because what Hollywood film director would want fixed burst firing gun (ignoring the fact that that's what soldiers and marines use) ? Or modify civilian semi-automatic replicas to fully automatic fire. In which case the weapon is to be identified as such. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:54, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::::Didn't mean to imply we are doing anything wrong, just that the definition of the A3 models isn't that important as they don't appear. Having said that, the original M16A3/M16A2E3 was just an A2 upper on an A1 lower, so this is actually what a number of movie guns are, but I understand that they are going for a standard A2. Regardless, back to my original question, do we call them Colt or not? My opinion is no obviously, as it seems that some if not the majority of M16s are manufactured by other companies, and there is the future possibility of this with M4, and regardless it is a military designation of a rifle that goes by another Colt name. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:31, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::::My opinion: M4 & M4A1 should remain as Colt. And so should older M16s. Modern M16s (M16A3 & M16A4), since they have ''at least'' 3 official manufacturers (Colt, Fabrique Nationale and Sabre Defence), should go without Colt. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:37, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

== How to NOT shoot an M16 rifle! ==

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1lyMyejpI] - Seriously, this is either really funny, or just painful to watch... you decide. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 00:19, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:Wow, that was bad. Glad that guy's alright! - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:46, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::Also, notice how many times the gun clicks and the guy keeps saying it's a "bad primer". And then he keeps hitting the forward assist, pulling on the charging handle (which is seen ejecting the unfired rounds) and hitting the bottom of the magazine even though it's already back in the gun after he kept taking it out and putting it back in prior (Someone else in the video even says 'Jesus [name withheld], you don't know how to load these.' and the shooter responds with 'I didn't load these, [name withheld] did.'). I think that could have been a contribution to the gun exploding in his hands. But then again, I'm not the expert on M16 rifles, I'm only guessing. Anyone else got a better explanation? --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 17:05, 26 September 2011 (CDT)
:::It was the shooter saying that the guy who came to help didn't know how to load them, and then that assisting guy said it was someone else. There is nothing wrong with tapping the magazine even when it appears to be seated correctly, as it makes sure it is all the way into the well. Although he did hit forward assist unnecesarily once or twice, I don't think it would have done any harm or contributed to the kaboom. The file description and all the comments say that this was a squib, and it was all the shooters fault for not identifying it and checking the barrel (there are also quite a few people that seem to think it is possible the load 2 or 3 rounds into the chamber at a time by repeatedly pulling the charging handle, but this is Youtube after all). But I don't think it was, as on the first misfire there was only the click of the hammer, and when he pulled the bolt back a round was ejected which wouldn't have been chambered if the previous "bang" was a squib. I've never fired a round with primer but no powder, but surely there would still be an audible "bang" rather than just the click of the hammer? When exactly did the bullet get stuck in the barrel, or am I missing something? Regardless, I would never use ammo I hadn't loaded myself, particularly not done by a friend of a friend. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:33, 26 September 2011 (CDT)
::::I think it's safe to say that the idea of unintentionally loading 2 or 3 rounds into the chamber of an M16 rifle is an overstatement and pretty much absurd (I've NEVER heard of such a thing happening with the M16 rifles). But one person's explanation in the comments is that when the hammer struck the primers of the "squib" rounds, the 'click' in question was the popping of the primer, which popped with enough force to lodge the bullets into the barrel of the gun, but without the 'bang' sound since the powder of the "squib" rounds were bad. So when the explosion happened, it was because the hammer struck a perfectly fine round, or one with enough charge in it's powder load, and that bullet impacted the other bullets stuck in the barrel, which caused a high-pressure situation ending with the magazine blowing apart, and leaving the M16 rifle damaged (probably for good). Talk about good craftsmanship going to waste! But at least the shooter in the video was not injured in any way. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 05:51, 30 September 2011 (CDT)
:::::I could be wrong as have never done it myself (I am not a moron) but I am fairly sure that a primer going off with no powder in the round makes a louder noise than just a click, which is all that is heard in this video. Anyone know how loud just the primer from a .223 would be? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 07:05, 30 September 2011 (CDT)
::::::Apparently [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS1K1zJQhOQ this] is a .308 primer. Now bear in mind how far down the audio is turned (as you don't have to wear ear protection when he fires), I can ''kinda'' see that might end up sounding like a click. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:52, 30 September 2011 (CDT)
:::::::Yeah, most of the time all cameras (except for maybe the professional ones used by filmmakers) capture certain sounds differently. It is possible for the primers of "squib" rounds to discharge with enough force to lodge the bullets into the barrel of whatever gun it's fired from (and sometimes it will stay there until the owner disassembles their weapon and removes the lodged bullet), and most of the time, the "popping" sound of the primers sounds like a "click" when captured on a camera similar to the one used in the video of the M16 blowing up in that guy's face. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 00:28, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

:I've seen this video before, looks like the guy was pulling a half-assed SPORTS drill several times while the weapon was malfunctioning on him. But yeah, shooting custom-loaded ammo with no reliable means of quality control is definitely not a good idea, as this video clearly demonstrates. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 23:52, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

== Not working ==

Why is the M16 page not working. It locks up my computer, and the network wont respond. It takes about 5 to 10 minutes before it will work.[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

:It might be your browser and / or RAM is having trouble with the size of it; this is the largest page on the site. What's the spec of your PC? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:03, 5 October 2011 (CDT)

==Difference between original M16 and M16A2==
I know how to distinguish XM16E1s, M16A1s, and M16A4s from each other, but how are both the M16 and the M16A2 different visually? Both rifles have no forward assist or removable carrying handles and the M16 can also appear with a "birdcage" flash hider. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 00:34, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:M16-SP1-30Mag.jpg‎|thumb|none|500px|M16 aka SP1 (flat "slab side receiver") with an A1 "birdcage" Flash hider - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M16A2.jpg|thumb|500px|none|M16A2 Rifle - 5.56x45mm. Select Fire rifle (Safe/Semi/3 round Burst Only).]]

:I'll try. Also with the caveat that I have to replace the movie M16s on the site. An IMFDB member whom I am eternally grateful for, pointed out that I had A2 lowers on A1 uppers. Though that works, it's also not correct. I have to replace the M16 pics with exact versions of each one, but that will take time. I just point this out to make sure that people know I'm aware of it.

1) M16: original USAF contract in Vietnam and in the U.S. slab side upper and lower, 1st pattern duckbill three prong flash hider, original buttstock with foldable rear sling swivel. Early models had counter-turning screws in stead of pivot pins to attach the upper and lower receiver.

1) XM16E1: 2nd pattern three prong flash hider, Chromed bolt, exposed mag release button (no ribbing) but there is a partial rib for the front pivot detent pin and spring, old M16 style buttstock and rear sling swivel, tear drop forward assist.

2) M16A1: Birdcage Flash hider, Phosphate bolt but chromed chamber, mag release button ribbing to protect against accidental mag dump and full ribbing to the front pivot detent pin and spring, A1 style buttstock with fixed rear sling swivel (with stowaway compartment in the buttplate)

3) M16A2: A2 style flash hider with no holes on the lower part, ring washer instead of lock washer, heavy barrel, round forearm, full ribbing on mag release button and front pivot detent pin and spring, front part of lower receiver is beefier and thicker as well as the rear part near the base of the tube ring. Updated and longer (by about 1") rear buttstock and thicker buttplate, slight finger ledge on the pistol grip about midway down. Adjustable rear sights with elevation control as well as side to side. A2 does NOT have a detachable carry handle.

Hope this helps. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:26, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

:Don't forget that the M16A2 has semi/3-round burst as opposed to semi/full auto in the M16 (though you rarely see this feature used on-screen as most directors feel the full auto looks better than a 3-round burst). [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 04:15, 6 October 2011 (CDT)
No versions of the M16 has screws rather than push pins at the front of the receiver. The only rifles that have these are the Sporter 1 rifles (which is what all of the pictures on the main page are actually of). The M16s that pre-date the captive push pin (Models 601 and 602) have a large headed push pin that is held in place by a ball detent on the pin itself. Also, the "M16" category can be separated out into 3 different guns which the USAF used seqeuntially in turn. First is the original 601 which has green furniture, original "duckbill" flash hider and triangular charging handle (around 14,500 were made, 8,500 to USAF, 1,000 to the Army for evaluation and the rest to special forces, police, and a number of Asian countries). The 602 is the quintessential slab sided M16, and introduced the updated 3 pronged flash hider, black furniture, the current "T" shaped charging handle. The third "M16" is what is often called the USAF M16 and was the most produced variant, and was the Model 604. Early versions had the M16E1 type partial fence lower, whilst the later versions had the M16A1 full fence lower, and these weapons continued to be used by Air Force until 2001, when all M16s were updated to the A2 standard. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:58, 6 October 2011 (CDT)
::Cool! Thanks [[User:Commando552|commando552]] As I've said before, I pulled movie armory weapons. Very rarely do I get access to actual firearms museums, but then 99% of the full auto guns were probably sporter conversions, since it was much easier to convert a title I to a class III gun prior to 1986. I have a LONG laundry list of photos to update thanks to you guys! ;) But the information helps. Also only in recent months have i realized how many franken guns were built in the 1970s/80s and 90s on the M16 platform. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 22:24, 21 October 2011 (CDT)

Pics of the different M16s I mentioned above:
[[File:Colt 601.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 601 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[File:Colt 602.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 602 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[File:USAF Colt Model 604.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 604 (USAF M16) - 5.56x45mm]]
--[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:48, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

== Historical Question ==

Anyone knows why XM177 never dropped the 'X' letter in it? If 'X' usually implies the prototype and testing stage, then why did XM177 have it with both upgrades and use in service, and the jamming M16s in Vietnam didn't? Or some other reasons? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:02, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ignoring the USAF rifles (which got official GAU designations) the US Army only purchased a few thousand XM177s and the kinks were never really ironed out, so it is fair to call it an XM program still. Rifle was still in development stages really when US Army cut the funding due to Vietnam war involvement being scaled back.. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 13:27, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

::Were the Colt Commandos used in Somalia much more refined versions of XM177 program? If yes, I wonder why they were not put back in official service... --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:19, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Do you have a pic of them, not sure what rifles you are talking about. If you are talking about the Model 733, that is not really related to the XM177s. US forces purchased a small number of Model 733s for Special Forces and was called the M16A2 commando, although Colt later offered it as the M4 Commando. Rangers and Delta in Somalia also used both Model 723s (A1 rear sight a straight barrel) and 727s (A2 rear sight with M4 profile barrel) and these weapons were known initially as M16A2 carbines, before morphing into the M4. Till the early 90s there were still some Model 653s (called the M16A1 carbine) and XM177s with the long moderators replaced with birdcages knocking around as well, so there were probably a lot of different guns knocking around Somalia. These guns were not refinements though, they were guns from the 60/70s that were still being used due to the fact that the US Army did not produce a standard issue carbine till the M4. I'm not even gonna mention the franken-guns that would have been used by the USAF special forces at the time. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:08, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

::::Ah, thanks, that explains it. [http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/449652_going_for_a_1993_Somalia_car15_build_and_need_your_help.html Here are the various photos]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:26, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

== Colt Carbine/Model 653/Model 727/Model 733 ==

Firstly, forgive my ignorance in things regarding the variety of AR-15 models. In the model description it says that it was 'never adopted formally by the US Military, and thus never had an "M" or "XM" designation.' However, in the following section where it lists the movies in which we can find this rifle it is often found as the M653. Can someone more knowledgeable either clear up why there is this discrepancy? Thanks --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 18:34, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

:Editors (and video game developers) often confuse the 'Model', 'M' and 'MK' designations. M653 should be changed to Model 653. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:14, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

::Correct. Model "___" is the official COLT designation and usually comes first. Only when the weapon is adopted as an official front line weapon does it get the "M" designation. And all these minutia of details in the weapons history STILL gives me a headache! ;) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 03:01, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

:::So does that mean we need to clean up this section to take all the 'M's away?--[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 08:11, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

::::I've replaced the "M"s with Models --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:22, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

== Colt Model 978 ==

'''I took this from Wikipedia, so it might be wrong.''' A lot of video games like to portray the M4A1 with additional burst mode. I read that the Colt Model 978 (a.k.a. "M4 Carbine Enhanced") is an M4 that features a S-1-3-F trigger group. I wonder how popular this variant was/is and most importantly when was it finalized and released? (if it was ever) - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:15, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:The four position fire selector weapons were adopted by nobody as far as I know, with the exception of Greece who bought the Model 778 (don't know how widespread this was, have just seen a few in some pics), which is basically a Model 727 with the four position selector. You can actually buy parts for a four position selectors, sears and disconnectors from Colt, so guns can be modified to this standard. However, I guarantee you that no guns in games actually have the correct four position selector, as it looks different to the standard one. Can't find any pics right now, but the four position selector is a flat plate with a ridge along the centre that ends in an odd knurled dome, sort of like a citrus juicer.

:I have also heard of US Special Forces having the four posiiton M4A1s (Model 978), but may just be rumors, and if true there are very few of them and certainly not widespread. They could also be modifications to standard M4s. Below is a pic of the side of a Model 738 M4 Commando Enhanced (Model 733 with the four position selector) showing the selector switch design.

:--[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:37, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:[[File:Colt Model 738.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 738 "M4 Commando Enhanced" fire selector.]]

:Which games portray the M4A1 with additional burst mode, for example? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:40, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

::Ghost Recon features the normal A1 and the "M4 SOCOM" which has the bonus burst mode. Same in The Sum of All Fears game (both Tom Clancy games). Cannot think of any other games right now. (Maybe I was a little exaggerating when I wrote "a lot of" since in most games you can't even toggle the rof.) So, according to what commando552 wrote, it is possible that the M4A1 with S-1-3-F group in Ghost Recon was intentional, since you control a (fictional) U.S. special force. (And the correct trigger groups: We (at least I) don't take the selectors into account, since in most games you cannot even see them, or are set to safe while the gun goes all rock&roll.)- [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 07:55, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Well, yeah, the universe of Tom Clancy is the one where the prototypes and ultra rare things come true, including weapons and vehicles, so the presence of AR-15-type firearm with four-position selector switch shouldn't come as surprise ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:48, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

::::Bozitojugg3rn4ut, the selector really should be taken into account, as apart from the receiver markings the selector switch is the only external difference between the regular Colt carbines and the Enhanced version with burst and auto. If it has the regular fire selector and lacks the markings on the receiver, then it is simply and M4 with the wrong fire control group. Is very hard to tell from the Ghost Recon screen shots as there aren't any of the relevant side, but you can just make out that there are only 3 positions marked on the right side of the receiver, making the physical model that of a regular M4/M4A1 rather than an Enhanced M4. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:09, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

Interestingly, this discussion is the first result when one Googles "Colt Model 978". [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:05, 19 December 2011 (CST)

== Main Page ==

There are 2 issues:

1) Shouldn't it be called AR-15, since ArmaLite AR-15 is the weapon that started it all?

2) There is at least 1 not-rifle on the page: [[M16 rifle series#Colt 9mm Submachine Gun|Colt 9mm Submachine Gun]]

--[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:58, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

:I agree, AR-15 makes much more sense to me. I would call the page "AR-15 Variants", gets rid of the problem that "M16" is only relevant 5 or 6 of the 30 or so guns on the page, and the fact that rifle is not necessarily the correct term for all of them. I'm not sure how the site mechanics work, but would changing the name of the page create a massive problem for the 1000+ pages that link here, or would the redirects sort it all out? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:44, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

::Need to contact admins and ask them about this. I support your version, as more appropriate one. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:17, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Though you are technically correct, M16 is the most widely recognized nomenclature for the weapons that appear in films. Remember that we are not a gun encyclopedia, we are a weapons in MOVIE/TV/et al wiki. Sure, we utilized those rules of starting with the original weapon when it came to more obscure weapons (like grouping the R4s in with the Galils), but really famous weapons have their own pages, weapons that a firmly entrenched with their own identity in the mind of the movie going public. We also did not start a StG-44 page and then branch the AK-47s out from that even though the AKs obviously were a stepchild of the StG-44 Design theory. Very rarely are guns 'presented' as AR-15s in media. In fact many movie goers don't even recognize the term. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 18:13, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

::::I don't remember many movies where the character says: "Here is my M16!" or where the weapon is listed in closing credits :\
::::The reason for AK-47 not being on the same page as StG-44 is having completely different design. AK-47 was ''inspired'' by StG project, nothing more. There are a lot of weapons that bear a ''resemblance'' to AK-47 or AR-15 but have different design and thus their own page. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:29, 31 October 2011 (CDT)
::::'''P.S.''' Imagine IMFDB consisting of pages: ''"M1911"'', ''"Desert Eagle"'', ''"MP5"'', ''"Garand"'', ''"M14"'', ''"M16"'', ''"AK-47"'', ''"Everything Else"'' :D

::::Now, [http://kingshamus.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/official.jpg THIS] made me laugh xD --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:34, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

== What is the point of the Colt 9mm SMG? ==

Every time I look at it just seems so useless. I mean, why would anyone want what is essentially an M4 that does less damage with less range? Recoil would be lower I presume, but I cant see an M4 having a gigantic amount of recoil. I'm sure someone could help provide me with some insight but at the moment I'm finding it very hard pressed to find a purpose of this thing. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 14:20, 14 December 2011 (CST)
:I imagine it had more to do with some guys at Colt wanting to get in on the 9mm subgun market but not wanting to design an entire new platform to do it with. The 9mm round also gives you less penetration, which is good if, say, you're trying to shoot the guy you're aiming at only rather than him and the three things behind him. This is why the majority of people who actually use it are police or police-like units. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:42, 14 December 2011 (CST)
::The main advantage of it is that it is an SMG with the same ergonomics as an AR-15 platform, which makes training easier. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 15:27, 14 December 2011 (CST)
:::9mm is much easier to suppress compared to 5.56. But Evil Tim's answer about Colt not wanting to design a whole new SMG is probably the right one.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 16:13, 14 December 2011 (CST)

== M4 Scope optics ==

Can someone give me some info on what is the standard scope optic for the military, and what is the best scope optic to use on the M4? i was just curious--Gunner5

:Which military? The M4 is used by a number of them in some capacity. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:53, 19 December 2011 (CST)

U.S. Military.--Gunner5

:The most common, I would think, are the ACOG and Aimpoint RDS, but just about any optic can be used on it. As far as what's the best optic to use, "best" is a relative term and depends on the individual shooter and what he/she prefers. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 02:01, 20 December 2011 (CST)

== USE WITH S.A.S ==

Why does the S.A.S use the M16A2 as their standard rifle? In Bravo Two Zero (the book), Andy McNab calls the M16A2 a 4x4, and the SA80 a Rolls-Royce. Looking back, the S.A.S have a history of using foreign weapons. Why is this? Do Britain not make good enough weapons? Sure, the only thing we currently make and export are Accuraccy International's (which are the best sniper rifles in the world, and I don't care what anyone else says. It strikes me as strange, though, why the S.A.S use the AW50 and not the AS50 as their heavy-caliber sniper rifle), but why do the S.A.S have to use American weapons? Why not use German?

:"...''have'' to use American weapons?" You have some kind of grudge against American weapons or something? :P In any case, the events of ''Bravo Two Zero'' took place during the first Gulf War, so I really doubt they're still using M16A2s in this age of optics and rail systems. It's my understanding that their ''current'' "standard" long gun is the C8FTHB carbine, which is essentially an M4A1 with a 16" barrel of different profile to that of a standard M4. As to why, well, they use what they ''want'' to use, whether it be British, American, German, whatever. Much like their American counterparts in CAG and DEVGRU, they have the leeway and budget to get a little bit of everything because their mission calls for it. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:30, 7 January 2012 (CST)

::The SAS adopted the M16 as a replacement for the 7.62 L1A1 SLR which was the standard British rifle at the time. The SLR was superior in terms of reliability, accuracy and range, but the M16 had a major weight advantage in terms of both the weapon and the ammunition, could mount a grenade launcher, and was capable of automatic fire (so was the SLR, but a match was required to be inserted into the action). One of the reasons they continued to use it after the introduction of the SA80 rifles was due to initial reliability problems, along with the fact that until relatively recently the SA80 culd not use an underbarrel grenade launcher (M16s were also used by other units, such as some Royal Marine units and the Pathfinders). Don't really know the exact reason why the SAS (along with Military Police and Royal Marine close protection along with a few others) use the C8SFW/CQB rather than the SA80 but would imagine it is partially due to the lower weight and the modularity of the SFW (bear in mind that the SA80 didn't have a railed forened until a few years ago and has only just gotten a MIL-STD-1913 on the top for different sights). Unlike the M16s adopted before, the C8 has actually been officially adopted by the MOD as the L119A1 (both the SFW and the CQB share the same designation though). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:17, 7 January 2012 (CST)

:::L119A1 is the official designation for C8 SFW in British SF service. C8 CQB is just its variant. An analogy would be M4A1 (official service) and Colt Commando (unofficial service). --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:50, 8 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:M16 rifle series

2012-01-08T00:09:25Z

StarSummers: /* Forward Assist */

==Additional Variants==
[[Image:BattleLA M16A4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M16A4 (5.56x45mm) with ACOG scope, RIS foregrip, Magpul MBUS rear sight, and AN/PEQ-15 IR designator as seen in ''[[Battle: Los Angeles]]'']]
[[Image:CustomNorthHollywoodAR15.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Custom AR-15/M16 Hybrid gun (5.56x45mm) made to resemble the firearm used by Emil Matasareanu in the 1997 North Hollywood Bank Of America Shootout, represented in the film ''[[44_Minutes:_The_North_Hollywood_Shootout|44 Minutes:The North Hollywood Shootout.]]'']]
[[Image:M4_SWAT-1-.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M4A1 with ACOG scope and Surefire M500AB weaponlight. This is one of the screen-used weapons seen in ''[[S.W.A.T. (film)|S.W.A.T.]]'' - 5.56x45mm.]]
[[Image:OlympicArmsAR15.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An Olympic Arms AR15 (note: Olympic arms did not renamed their rifles with the "K" designation until after the 1990s) with A2 Handguards and the Olympic Arms stowaway pistol grip - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M203xm177.jpg|thumb|none|600px|XM177 - 5.56x45mm with M203 grenade launcher 40mm]]
[[Image:UVARCarbine.jpg|thumb|600px|none|CAR-15 like the one used in ''[[Uncommon Valor]]'' - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M16A1M203ScarfaceCombo.jpg‎ |thumb|none|600px|World IMFDB Exclusive: Screen used Faux M203 Launcher with M16A1 with Quadrant and Front ladder sight - 5.56x45mm. This is verified screen used from the film ''[[Scarface]]''. Two 30 round magazines have been taped together with black gaffer's tape to emulate the way Tony Montana loaded his weapon in the film. What is interesting is that the tape in the movie does really appear to be motion picture gaffer's tape, which would only be common on ... a movie set.]]
[[Image:model 656.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M16A1 with 20-round magazine, fitted with scope - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M4 m203 old.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Model 727 - 5.56x45mm with [[M203 grenade launcher]] - 40mm]]
[[Image:607-2-sm-741x267.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Model 607 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:XM177_shorty.jpg|thumb|none|600px|CAR-15 SMG AIRSOFT RIFLE - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:Icsm4ris2006.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M4A1 AIRSOFT RIFLE with a RIS foregrip and AN/PEQ-2 IR designator - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:Mockcommando.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt XM177E2 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:GUU-5P.jpg|thumb|none|600px|GUU-5/P - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:Colt Law Enforcement Model 6920 Carbine..jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Law Enforcement Carbine with ACOG scope and PentagonLight MD3R weaponlight, screen-used weapon from ''[[I Am Legend]]'' - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M148.jpg|thumb|none|600px|XM177E2 - 5.56x45mm with a mounted [[XM148 grenade launcher]] - 40mm]]
[[Image:K3B.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Olympic Arms K3B carbine - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:101-rifle-c8fthb-carbine-6.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Canada C8A3 Carbine with EOTech red dot sight - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M16A4M203ACOG.jpg|thumb|none|600px|M16A4 rifle - 5.56x45mm with ACOG scope and M203 grenade launcher - 40mm]]
[[Image:CAXM177.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A Classic Army XM177 airsoft replica rifle - 5.56x45mm (of the type used by SF troops in some scenes of the movie ''[[Green Zone]]'').]]
[[Image:M653M203.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Model 653 5.56x45mm with magazine removed and M203 grenade launcher 40mm]]
[[Image:Cam15a4tacticalcarbine.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Classic Army M15A4 airsoft carbine rifle - 5.56x45mm]]
[[File:Colt AR15 Match Target Competition HBAR II 6731.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Colt AR15 Match Target HBAR II (Model MT6731) - 5.56x45mm]]
this is the marushin cap gun?--[[User:Kin93|Kin93]] 07:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
::Yes, you are right, it is, so this is one of the FIRST guns I need to photograph (a real one) and replace this Airsoft abomination. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually thats a ICS airsoft M4 with the grip and laser box....

An airsoft gun and a cap gun aren't the same thing. LOL [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:43, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

== Interesting ==
...I seriously doubt anyone will ever see an underslung version of the M203 used in a film, all by itself, ...

but there have been stand alone M203 launchers (modified with a pistol grip and stock like the M79LF 37mm launchers) as well as the M203 being attached to guns other than the M16 (take Rambo III for example where they attached it to an AK). Having a section on the M16 w M203 on the M16 page makes sense since that is where people will look if they're curious about that particular combo appearing in a movie. But I like having a separate page for the M203 to address more detailed history of the launcher plus any applications where the launcher is used with other weapons. Just a thought...
::We do need a page where M203s are used as stand alone launchers, rare, but it has happened. But we should shift all M203s underslung to M16s to the M16 Page and have a note directing users to that page when looking for that combination on the M203 page. Just IMHO.... [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 01:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense, that configuration. Also, there was a standalone M203 on Bones, and there might be others (sometime WAY in the future, when a director wants to use a "modern" version of an M79, like how James Cameron used the fictional roto-craft in place of the Huey).

== Do well really need to have an "A2" and "A3" category?==

[[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] has already explained that just about all of the "M16A2s" used in movies are actually A2 uppers on A1 lowers, often with A1 flash hiders. By this definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", and might actually be considered M16A3s roughly. But since they're usually seen impersonating M16A2s, I say designate by receiver style only (both the A2 and A3 have what is usually called the "A2 receiver").

In other words, I think we should ditch the M16A3 category completely. It makes no sense to distinguish between A2s and A3s when basically all of the "Hollywood" A2s and A3s are the same type of gun. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

:I never got anyone's feedback on this, but...I decided to go ahead and ditch the M16A3 entry, for the reasons I explained above. It doesn't make sense to try and distinguish between "A2s" and "A3s" in movies when MoviePropMaster has explained that they're all basically the same thing - A2-style uppers on fully automatic A1 lowers. By that definition, none of them are true "M16A2s", but since they're obviously supposed to portray such rifles in movies, it makes more sense to call them A2s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

::I agree, because the M16A3 was made for Navy SEALs and SeeBees, no civilian hands hae touched them. -Winchester (1-26-09)
I believe the 1995 remake of Village of the Damned portrayed the National Guard using burst fire. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

(the above was in reply to a comment that the author deleted as i posted.) --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

::Also I think Colt sold A3s to foreign entities, National police of allied countries, Elite units, etc. Any country with which we are friendly and Colt has sold weapons in the past. I've heard that A3s were sold as samples to France, U.K. and Germany (but that was a casual comment that I heard years ago). There 'could' be A3s in the armories of foreign movie productions. That is a completely grey area with which I have no one to verify anything. :( [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 05:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

:This is strange. I posted a comment here a couple hours ago, asking how many movies are there were burst fire is portrayed? I know Black Hawk Down has one instant. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
::I've seen some films that had three round burst fire. I will try to get the titles and list them [[Special:Contributions/205.172.16.102|205.172.16.102]] 01:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

There is a significant difference between a true A2 and A3 M16. Externally, they look identical, however the A3 is full auto and the A2 is 3 shot burst. Simply put: A1 and A3 are full auto, A2 and A4 are 3 shot burst. The external differences are what make it a little easier to identify. We all know what an A1, A2, and A4 M16 look like, but the A3 is just an A2 that is full auto. Hope this helps; Its my first time posting. --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 10:14, 29 October 2011 (CDT)

== The caption to the M16A1 w/ M16A2 handguards... ==
I was in the National Guard in the early '90's and that's exactly what we had. I was also issued an M16A1 with A2 handguards in basic training. It turns out that it's simpler and--from what I heard--cheaper to replace the 'A1 guards with 'A2 guards because the 'A2's are less complex and you only need to stock one type instead of 'lefts' and 'rights'. Also, the 'A1'a in the national guard were freshly rebuilt, tested, and had the serial numbers laser etched into the bolt carriers. They were issued with all 'A2 furniture.

:Yeah, I've seen plenty of A1s with A2 hand guards elsewhere. In fact, if you ever watch footage of the current offensive into Gaza, you can see both IDF personnel and Hamas militants using them. The Israelis received a lot of M16A1s and have updated many of them with the M16A2 hand guards. Many of these rifles were passed into Israeli's "allies" in Fatah, and then Hamas stole plenty of them during their war with Fatah (some were also probably stolen from the IDF themselves). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

just for the record here is an M16A1 with A2 handguards in service
[[Image:RP Marines assault line DM-SD-06-10463.JPEG|thumb|none|600px|RP Marines armed with M16A1s with A2 handguards.]]
--[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 22:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== Mark 12 Special Purpose Rifle ==

Does anyone have an image of one?
-[[User:AdAstra2009]]

:I put one on the ''[[Live Free or Die Hard]]'' page that I took from another site. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks I pasted it from that page but we should probably look into getting a noncopyrighted one.
-[[User:AdAstra2009]]

::Well, you can ask MoviePropMaster2008 if he has a Mark 12 upper in his company's inventory. I imagine he also knows armorers at Cinema Weaponry (the guys who supplied the weapons for ''[[Live Free or Die Hard]]''), so he might even be able to get us one of the same guns used in that movie. But he's very busy of course and has LOTS of other image requests to tend to, so it might be a while before he gets around to it. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

== Rate of Fire on the M16A1 ==
Does anyone know the rate of fire on the M16A1?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 22:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I assume it's about 800 rounds a minute [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 08:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

:That would be correct, it's around 750 to 800 RPM. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

== What is this? ==
It's not really from a movie, but a music video, and I havn't been able to figure out what this AR is yet, there are two others in the video, one's an M16A1, the other an A2, but I just can't figure this one out.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle1.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle2.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle3.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle4.JPG
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:RA_Rifle5.JPG

Looks like an M733, what is this from? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 08:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:The gun in the first 'cap looks different from the CAR-15s in the other pictures. Maybe it's a fake XM177?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 12:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
::It's from the music video for Hero Of War by Rise Against, the main soldier uses it, his two buddies use an M16A1 and M16A2, I'm almost 100% sure there are only three rifles in the video. Yeah, I'm thinking M733 too... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]]

==XM607 Commando Carbine==
I do remember the weapon from ''[[Pink Caddilac]]'' an XM607, or an AR-15 modified to imitate one. The weapon may not have been officially adopted but kits were released to the public though:

* [http://totalsilenceinc.com/XM607_pages/questions.html 1]
* [http://www.retroblackrifle.com/ModGde/CrbGde/607.html 2]
* [http://www.fototime.com/A2FFCE89093C8E7/standard.jpg 3]

[[User:Cutaway|Cutaway]] 18:54PM, 3/7/2009 (UTC)

:I changed the entry after I watched the trailer for the movie. The trailer is on YouTube, and the gun in question is visible at the 00:27-00:28 mark:

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LddykTA8nVg

:That is definitely an older-model LaFrance Specialties M16K. It doesn't have the triangular front sight post of the XM607. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

==The Photoshopped M16 images==

Can people '''please''' stop posting the images of M16 variants that were edited using MPM's photos? There's a reason I've removed them before. We don't need to have every variant on the page, and many of them are inaccurate, anyway. The only one we allow is the XM16E1, because we don't have a good photo of one of those yet, and even that may get replaced. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

*The Colt 607 image I posted wasn't one of MPM's [unless someone stole it and re-hosted it], I got it from google. Only put it here because the page for the The World Is Not Enough videogame didn't have a 607 image. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 05:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

==Why do we have Colt Model 727 by itself==
When the Model 727 is just the commercial Colt name for the M4 carbine? it doesn't make sense to have the exact GUN made by Colt with it's commercial name (for law enforcement sales or international sales) with a separate category, when it should just be merged in with the M4/M4A1 category. The M16 page is getting out of control. MPM2008

:I agree that the Model 727 should be merged with the M4 category, but it's not exactly a commercial name for an M4. The Model 777 is the commercial name for the very first M4 (the one that didn't have the detachable carry handle). The 727 and 777 are identical, but the 727 is safe-semi-auto and the 777 is safe-semi-burst. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

:::Good point. But in the overall view, I think all that info (a) should be in the M4 category, (b) should be a footnote, NOT a separate category and (c) people are endlessly creating separate categories for weapons that are essentially the same guns as other categories. Experienced IMFDB users/Mods already know that most of the M16 variants seen in films are build ups of other guns. We usually just get the accessories and barreled uppers and put them on our full auto or semi auto lowers. Why spend thousands to get new guns when we're sitting on dozens and dozens of other M16s? Also, in VideoGames and Anime, again, they don't have to specify the new or commercial model unless it's specifically stated or named explicitly. Even then it can be a footnote in the original category.

==Adding images==

I'm getting a little annoyed with people adding images we don't need on the page, including many that are crap and which aren't necessary. Not to mention that half of them aren't even using the "<nowiki>br clear=all</nowiki>" command to ensure that the images won't drift into the next gun entry. So, I'm putting a stop to this now. No more without talking about it here first. Next person who doesn't respect my wishes gets a 1-week time out. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

:They're still doing it. I have removed the custom A1 upper mounted on an SP1 lower with A2 handguards from this page several times. It is not a common real like frankengun (but it has happened). I originally built this and photographed it for the HEAT page until better screenshots proved that Wes Studi's AR15 was an A1 style lower, not an SP1. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 21:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, for some reason, these users seem to think that every single picture of a gun needs to be on it's page. It especially frustrates me when they're sticking all customized guns that only appear in one movie onto a page, they may look cool, but they're not even standard configurations! All they end up doing is turning the gun page into a cluttered, sloppy mess of pictures, I mean just look at the [[Remington 870]] and [[Mossberg 500]] pages.--[[User:Alienqueen11|Alienqueen11]] 22:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Would it be alright if I added the following image to the [[M16 rifle series#M4/M4A1 with M203 Grenade Launcher|M4/M4A1 with M203 Grenade Launcher]] section?

[[Image:Sopmod m4 m203 06.jpg|thumb|none|350px|M4A1 5.56x45mm with M68 Aimpoint red dot scope, flip-up rear sight, and M203 grenade launcher 40mm]]

Figured that since the other sections on the page have pics of the 'basic' and 'tricked-out' versions, why not this one? [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 21:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have any pictures of a heavily modified M4 style platform? ex- The Unit, BlackHawk Down, Tears of the Sun? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 17:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

So why not update this page to include current issue M16A4 rifles?
(unless you don't know what they are....)

==A Warm Thank-You==
For years I have been trying to find out what the guns were Peter & Roger used in Dawn of the Dead. This site solved what the problem so many other "gun experts" on IMDb could not. Again, thank you.
:Thats what IMFDB is for =) --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 18:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

==Let's See If You Can Figure This Out==
I couldn't find a real picture so I put this together. Its an M4A1 with the old style stock, and a straight (no cuts) 16" barrel; or its a Sporter (or one of those older three number ones like that) with a removable carry handle; take your pick. I was just wondering what it actually is...

P.S. Every detail is intentional and exactly how its supposed to be even though its not a real picture, just so everyone knows that. ;)
[[Image:M4A1COD4.jpg]]

:It would be a hybrid commercial AR variant. It has an M16A1 style lower receiver, so it is NOT a Sporter I or II. Basically, it's an M4 Carbine with a flat top and detachable carry handle, with an old style buttstock and a civilian HBAR Carbine barrel outfitted with RIS forearms. Various manufacturers made similar guns to this design, like Bushmaster and a few others. Also many builders of AR15s made similar guns from parts kits from M&A, Patriot Arms, (the now defunct Nesard), Sun Valley, and others. With the advent of custom builds from aftermarket parts from dozens of manufacturers, the AR15 has become the ultimate "mutt". I can tell you this is NOT an issued military variant, so it would NOT have an "M" designation unless it was built from an M4 to begin with. Also nearly everyone uses the step down M4 style barrels for carbines, unless it's the ultra light. The HBAR Carbine style barrels are becoming rarer by the day since their heyday was the 1990s. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot, very informative answer. This is the "M4 Carbine" in Call Of Duty 4, and I've been trying to figure out exactly what it really is for a while. I didnt say where it was from because I figured the answer I'd get would be something like "its a videogame, so its probably not a real model", but I knew that ;) I like the look and have been trying to make it as an airsoft project, this helps a lot... too bad airsoft HBAR barrels are very hard to come by. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 07:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

:::How did you make that? At first I thought it was Pimp My Gun, but PMG doesn't have an M16A1 pistol grip yet. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 14:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

::::No, you thought right my friend, it is Pimp My Gun, I just used MS Paint to remove the little finger nub and made the HBAR barrel by copying and pasting the largest part of the barrel over the rest of it. That's all the "photoshopping" that I did. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 07:45, 13
February 2010 (UTC)
::If it's from CoD4, then blame lack of details on modelers that made that gun model. They simply saved some poligons for improved performance of the game. Same thing with lack of gas-block when front sight is removed. It supposed to be M4A1 and i'm 100% sure they had pictures of military issued M4A1's as a reference.
:::I'm sure they wanted it to be an M4A1, but I've seen a lot of movies where HK94s were converted to be MP5s, or 92FSs were converted to be 93Rs and last I checked on this site we identify guns on what they are, not what they're supposed to be... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:03, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== M16A1 series' portray ==

In the present, does anyone think that like the Ak47 and its variants, the M16A1 series is sometimes stereotypically portrayed as a bad guy's gun?
I've seen the IRA, FARC guerillas, Mexican drug lords and some gangbangers use them.
Overall is this true?
:In the real world, the USSR dumped millions of AKs into the hands of satellite states and insurgents around the world. In the Vietnam and immediate post Vietnam years the U.S. dumped millions of M16A1s to our allies. With the fall of Vietnam, all of the South Vietnamese M16A1s ended up in the hands of communist guerillas (as well as the AK). The AK and the M16 were the most prolifically distributed weapons of the last 50 years. There is no conspiracy to make them 'look bad'. They're in the hands of everyone so it is invevitable.
:Even Iran uses a variant of the M16A1, a copy of the Norinco CQ called the ''S-5.56'', as their standard rifle. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

== AR Series firing 5.7 Ammo??? ==

I was in a gun shop in Michigan today and saw a weapon with an AR-15 type body but with the mag of a P-90 running along the rail. I asked the guy at the shop and he did confirm the weapon did fire the 5.7 round. Anyone have any idea who makes the weapon and what it may be called? Incidentally the store was The Firing Line in Westland Michigan. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 03:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
::They sell those uppers here in California all the time. My local gun store has 5.7mm firing AR15 uppers that take the P90 magazine. But I never bothered to check who made it, that's what GOOGLE is for. I just never had an interest [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

:I have seen examples of this conversion as well. It is actually a specially-made upper receiver that can be mounted onto pretty much any AR-15 style lower receiver. The magazine mounts along the top of the weapon as with the P90, and the original magazine well in the lower receiver becomes the ejection port with the spent brass falling down through there instead of being spit out to the side. As for the manufacturer, I can't quite recall who makes it, but it is definitely quite an interesting piece of hardware. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As long as my memory goes, is called the AR-57 and is manufactured by 57Center, or something like that --[[User:Yocapo32|Yocapo32]] 15:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

::I remember when Impact Guns got those in. You can buy them here: http://www.impactguns.com/store/AR-57%20UR.html

::The manufacturer's web site, as Yocapo32 pointed out, is 57 Center. Their web site is here: http://www.57center.com/

::What's interesting is that the AR magazine well is where the brass gets ejected. The only problem I can see with having a P90 magazine mounted on top is that it leaves limited rail space on top for mounting accessories. You could have a scope or iron sights, and not much else. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info guys, again, I know this was not germane to the topic, it was just a little odd to see something like that as I had never heard of it before. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 16:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

==Stolen M4A1s==

In real life is there ever any incidents where police have seized M4A1 carbines from criminials or terrorists during raids?

:Do you mean mil-spec M4s, as opposed to semi-auto AR-15 carbines that are patterned after the M4? I would doubt it. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 21:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

::Never, or else it has never been reported anywhere, ever. And I am talking about real select fire 14.5" barreled M4/M4A1 carbines. However, California has had a rash of MP5s and MP5Ks stolen out of police cars, which were left unlocked when the cops were in a strip club. Seriously. they have not shown up since....[[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

==Suitable combat weapon==

Which weapon is considered better for infantry? An M16A1/M203 combo or an OICW?
:M16A1/M203. The XM29 weighs damn near 20 lbs., compared to 8 or 9 lbs. for the M16 when fitted with a 203. Fire control system or not, the last thing I'd want to be stuck with on a 60 mile march is an F-ing 20 lbs. rifle. And sign your posts by typing four '''~''' after them. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

:The M16/M203 combo is definitely superior; it has been proven in real-world combat situations over the last 30-plus years, whereas the only live-fire situation the XM29 has seen at the most is at the Aberdeen testing ranges. The closest replacement the M16/M203 will likely see anytime soon is an [[FN SCAR]]/[[Heckler & Koch M320|M320]], and even then the SCAR is only in limited use with the 75th Ranger Regiment at present. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 05:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The real question is whether or not the XM8 Carbine is better than the M4A1/derivatives (H&K 416, REC7, etc). And we probably won't ever know.

Also, the OICW was more of a man-portable version of a Doom gun than anything that you would actually bother carrying on duty. 20mm airburst auto-loader, saboted sub-5.56mm rounds? What could you use that for other than trying to clear a drug cartel's fortified mansion by yourself?

[[Special:Contributions/72.189.150.170|72.189.150.170]]

:One of the many things that led to the death of the XM29 was its sheer size. The Army wanted it scaled down to the size of an M4 [http://www.ghostrecon.net/images_arms/xm29_1.jpg] and 14 lbs max (which an M4 with all its mods gets pretty close to), but with today's technology, it just wasn't possible. Maybe in 20 years or so it will be, but the XM29 is presently dead for the foreseeable future. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

== Installation of a front Flip up/down Iron sights. ==

I was watching The Losers, and while I agree that those 4 characters all had M4A1s, they seemed to switch between fixed front sight and flip up/down iron sights. I was wondering how hard it would be to take an M4A1, remove the front factory sight and replace it with a flip up/down sight. I know it's pretty easy for the rear sight, but I wasn't sure about the front sight. (OK, I also want to ask this question because I, like many people, have played Modern Warfare 2 and seen the M4 with a flip up/down front sight.) --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 03:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:Not really that difficult. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 04:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:I believe the process would involve removing the muzzle brake and the existing front sight/gas block assembly and replacing it with a gas block that has either a rail to mount your choice of front sight, or a folding front sight, then reinstalling the muzzle brake. You can find instructional videos for this process at various gunsmithing websites. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 14:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

== Forward Assist ==
Does anyone know when reloading if it is a good idea to hit the forward assist after hitting the bolt release or its ok just to start firing after hitting the bolt release?

:The idea behind hitting the forward assist after reloading is to ensure the bolt is fully seated and that the weapon is ready to fire. It's generally not really nessicary at the range, but when in a combat situation where you might have dirt or whatnot fouling the chamber, it's a good idea to do that to ensure that the weapon will fire when you need it to.[[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 23:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

:The M16 series are the ONLY assault rifles (except the [http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83:g41-series&catid=8:the-automatic-rifles&Itemid=5/ HK G41], which is made to be like the M16 and is no longer produced) in the world to have a forward assist. Why don't other assault rifles have a forward assist? (ie. the AK-74, G36 etc.) Because other assault rifles are more reliable and don't need it. :)
::Uh more associated with the design of the Bolt than being more reliable. The AK series have a bolt handle attached DIRECTLY to the bolt carrier as do many other designs. If there is debris or fouling in the chamber which keeps a round from seating properly you can just jam the handle forward (I've done this in the field when my AK / Garand / Galil / M 14 / etc jammed) I once had a tiny piece of bark (I was firing under trees) which fell from above and fell into the ejection port and made the round 'stick' really badly in the chamber so that it would not seat properly. The M16 design has no way other than the forward assist to nudge the bolt & carrier forward enough to fire and kick that crap free of the action. But I wouldn't bash the M16 as an "unreliable" rifle. I'd sure take it into battle right now. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 20:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Alright, I understand. thanks for the extra info. I'm not saying the M16/M4 is a complete piece of crap, but it's definitely not the BEST ASSAULT RIFLE IN THE WORLD! like we Americans like to state all the time (*rolls eyes*). You and me both know the M16/M4 is no where as reliable as the G36 or the AK series. But at least it's better than the L85 series, now that's a piece crap rifle. :D *Edit: Well at least the L85A1, the L85A2 is OK. kinda like the M16/M16A1s sucks but the M16A2/A4s are good.

::::I have to completely disagree with what you say, i don't wish to come off as passive aggresive but you sound like a mall ninja that learned their weapons knowledge from seeing them perform in videogames or hearing public opinions on weapons from the news or other sources. The M16 family of rifles are both fine and fairly reliable weapons, while much of that view has been skewed by the fact they were portrayed as unreliable during conflicts such as Vietnam, is incorrect to a degree. The M16 is a reliable and capable weapon when cleaned and properly maintained, it simply lacks the ability to stay so when not properly serviced, as some other rifles such as the AKM can function fine without cleaning, the M16 can not. As for your comment on the L85 series, yes they were somewhat poor and unreliable weapons at first, coupled with poor grips and clumsy to handle for certain users, however the newer models have made large improvements and are very capable firearms. As i feel it needs to be said (or typed) a common mistake people make is assuming that militaries have access and funding to field their troops with the best weapons available, which is not always the case as most countries don't have the money to field an Army with rifles that can cost up to $5000-10000 per unit. Which is where the workhorses like M16's come in, you go for the "good" rifle not the "great" one. Also, although off-topic it somewhat pertains to the M16, most mall ninja's assume the AK-family is better because it is more reliable and fires a heavier cartridge, I've always asked "would you want a round that's going to pierce right through an enemy and leave an easy to treat wound, or have a round that hits an enemy and fragments inside them causing an ungodly bloody mess?" Hopefully esteemed imfdb members such as MPM2008 will agree with and share my viewpoint concerning this subject, as well as not condemn me for my long comment. [[User:Doc345|Doc345]] 13:24, 06 March 2011 (UTC)

::::The issues of jamming during the Vietnam War had more to do with ammunition and the lack of a chrome-lined chamber and barrel than the rifle's so-called "dirty" gas system. In 1964 the Army switched from stick powder to ball powder, which increased the rate of fire to over 1,000 RPM and left a lot of dirty residue in the weapon. This was only exacerbated by the lack of cleaning kits and training on how to maintain the weapon. They fixed the issue by fitting the rifle with a buffer system (which slowed the ROF down) and chrome-plated chamber. Training programs in weapon maintenance were instituted and an instruction book on how to maintain the rifle was circulated among troops. After further modifications resulted in the M16A1, many of the reliability issues disappeared (although even today, the weapon has yet to shed its bad reputation). The M16A2, A3, A4, and M4 carbine of today are an entirely different breed of warrior than the prototypes that were issued back in the 60s. While it may admittedly be a bit finicky, the M16 today is a good weapon. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:29, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

:::::Yeah but it's still a very fussy weapon, it's not very durable, and it has much more malfunctions/jams then say the H&K G36, but none the less it's still a excellent weapons platform, mostly. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:28, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

::::: I was always taught that the forward assist, while useful in combat, in situations where dirt or grime can jam a weapon, overall, if you DO need to use it, its a good indication of a malfunction and should be addressed, especially if its at a range. Theres a video somewhere on youtube, of a guy shooting some sort of AR, and repeatedly hits the forward assist, without clearing or checking the bore, until the entire gun explodes, probably from a round hitting one stuck in the bore.

== The comment about the SPR Mk 12 shooting full auto... ==

The design--at least the original ones--used a match grade trigger group that actually fired full auto.

If my Web Fu is correct, NSN 1005-01-562-0901 from Knight's Armament.

The original, intended purpose was to allow the uppers to be swapped out for a short barreled model initially so a marksman could use a short range weapon on the way in and out and the more accurate upper at the objective.

Sources: https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=003aa7475e95c9b56d5814227cc5d4ec&tab=core&_cview=0

::https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=fbd46923c9e6d18cd916b8a6e7d3cfdf&tab=core&_cview=0

States the Special Purpose Receiver (Early designs) specifies:

"(C) OTHER PERFORMANCE GOALS: (1) Increased reliability, durability, corrosion resistance, ease of cleaning, lubricity/reduced friction; fully functional for a minimum of 15,000 rounds (Threshold)/30,000 rounds (Objective), performing up to the standards and firing rates to be published in the Solicitation, functional reliability exceeding that of the standard M4A1 carbine at high and low temperature extremes as well as other hostile (sand/dust/dirt/mud/surf) environmental conditions (2) Improved safety- delay cook-off, fail-safe features, fires/functions safely and without delay of draining in the Over-The-Beach (surf zone, weapon flooded with water) environment. (3) User Acceptance: operational suitability, increased live-fire hit scores, decreased live-fire engagement times, speed/accuracy of engagement, '''controllability in semi-automatic and full automatic fire''', improved handling qualities, light weight, snag free in movement through vegetation and battlefield obstacles." (Accent added)"

== Standard Issue M4 vs. M4A1 ==

Does the Army issue regular infantry (i.e. 4th Inf. Div.) the three-round burst M4 or the M4A1? I always thought it was the M4A1 (and please forgive me if I got to the party late), but from what I've read, it seems like they issue the regulars the Model 920, leaving the 921 for Special Forces and the like. -

i think it all depends on the on-base armory. for example some armory's might still have some M4s. but i think the regular infantry does use the M4A1. however. Special forces dont use the M4A1 or the M4. they use the hK416/417. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 17:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Though I don't know for certain, I wouldn't imply Spec-Ops units use ''only'' the new HK rifles - As you've said, it all depends on what's around, and to a degree what the soldiers prefer (in the case of Special units). Though the aforementioned HK rifles are in inventory, that doesn't automatically cancel the M4s out - some personnel might still use 'em. Plus there are other weapons around, namely the FN SCAR series. Though I would agree use of the M4 with Special Forces probably isn't as common these days. As for a regular-issue weapon, I agree that the M4 and M4A1 are both in use nowadays, with the A1 perhaps being more prominent. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:40, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

::Actually, Stan, my understanding is that it's the opposite. The M4 is the most common version, not the M4A1. U.S. military doctrine still discourages full-auto for infantry rifles, so it seems unlikely to me that the M4A1 is going to be more common. As for the SCAR, SOCOM just decided this past June that they weren't going to order any more SCAR-Ls for the foreseeable future, which means that even amongst most SF units, the M4 will remain their standard weapon. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Well, I wasn't too sure, but I guess that does make sense to stick with the burst-fire M4. Good point. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 01:51, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The only SF unit that uses the M4 (920) that I can think of is the Asymmetric Warfare Group, but that's only 'cause they had to hand in their HK416s. According to a book I've got, that decision went over like a lead balloon with the AWG. -

thank god. im not a huge fan of the SCAR-L i find it pointless. if you want to go with a new alternative to the M4/M16. why the hell would you take an unfamiliar weapon. alas the hK416. same rate of fire. same Picatanny rail, same attachments, same stock, same barrel, same trigger group, and extremely similiar internals. and Stan, i do agree. if i made it sounds like all SF use the hK416, i didnt mean to. i/we really DONT no what they all use. they pick their own. they could carry an AK-47 or a CAR-15 if they wanted to. we cant make generalizations about units that get custom made equipment. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 20:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

- No prob, dude - I'm just glad you got what I was gettin' at. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

i would be shocked if they couldnt pick their weapons. their the best soldiers on the planet. it just doesnt make sense not to be able to. it would be like giving a star baseball player a 10 dollar glove. itll do but why wouldnt they get the best thats out there. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 01:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Reg army units use the burst M4, not the full auto A1. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

A couple of months ago when I was at a military base there were Marines conducting a weapons demo with the M4 carbine. It was the 3-round burst rifle, but a question came up about the M4A1. One Marine said that they got rid of all M4A1s and only have M4s. I personally don't see the need for a full-auto rifle and 3-round burst is fine because it forces the user to slow down and most of the time the user uses semi-only, combat or not, but that is my opinion. The M4A1 is still probabley used by the US Military, but I'm not sure, I haven't seen one in a long time.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:29, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

== Colt Accurized Rifle ==

After seeing several pages of real firearms appearing in only one film or game, I was wondering if I should expand this page with a new section for the [http://www.colt.com/law/car.asp Colt Accurized Rifle], which to my knowledge has only ever appeared in [[S.W.A.T. 4]]. Before I do that, I need to confirm two things:

*Is the Colt Accurized Rifle indeed another variant on the M16 line of rifles, or a separate take on the AR-15 design altogether? I suppose there's a reason why we don't include the [[Z-M LR 300]] in the M16 page because it's the latter--I need to know if the Colt Accurized Rifle falls in that category.
*Including it on this page would make it the first Designated Marksman Rifle variant here. So far I only see assault rifles or carbines here. Would including a DMR in this page be a problem or not?

If there are no real problems, I'll make a new section for it, but I have no idea where I'll get a non-copyright infringment image of one. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

:It'd be the '''second''' DMR on the page. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, but can someone confirm that the Colt Accurized Rifle is indeed descended from the M16 line of assault rifles and not a separate take on the AR-15 design like the aforementioned LR-300 is? I still have no idea where I can get a photo of this DMR that respects copyright. All I have are game screenshots. Some help here, please? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

== Removeable Carry Handle for Colt 9mm SMG? ==

Does such a Gun exist?

:Not as a production gun (Colt's website makes no mention of one, anyway), but the modular nature of the AR system makes such a configuration entirely possible. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 14:46, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

==Why do we have a Colt AR-15 SP1 category that is separate from the M16/SP1 category?==
The guns look the same, sure the SP1 had a design change in 1978 (three prong flash hider was changed to birdcage, rear sling swivel was changed to A1 style and the color went from greenish grey to straight grey) but unless we see the stamp on the side that says "Property of U.S. Government" we can't tell if it's a real M16 (which WERE sold via Title II dealers to armories) and a Colt AR15 SP1 which was converted to full auto (which was done A LOT prior to 1986). [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:10, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

== About M4 Commando and M16A4 Full Auto ==

Full Auto M16A4 (Model 905) is [http://www.colt.com/mil/M16_2.asp Model 901]

[http://www.colt.com/mil/M4Com_2.asp Model 933] ''is'' M4 Commando (Full Auto)

[http://www.colt.com/mil/home.asp Manufacturer's site] says it all.

== Colt Model 653 barrel length ==

Am trying to pin down what a gun is for a page I'm working on. It has a forward assist but no deflector, A1 rear sight, M4 length tubular handguard, 16" barrel with birdcage flash hider and a solid stock. Basically it matches the gun in the picture for the Model 653 on the main page, apart from having a solid stock but that is easily changeable. However, every source I can find about the 653 says that it has a 14" barrel. Was the gun made in different barrel lengths but kept the same designation, and if not, anyone know what the gun is that is pictured as a 653? Also, while I'm on the topic of obscure colt carbines, does anyone know of a model that will match a 725 (original C8 without the flat-top) but has an A2 rear sight? Thanks, --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:16, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

== Can anyone figure out what this is? ==

I found this hidden in my computer, I think it's a Colt Canada C7A1 as a base, I can tell it's C7 because of the Canadian leaf on the the lower receiver, it would be an A1 because of the removable carrying-handle. What the heck is that hand-guard? - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:02, 28 April 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:Colt Canada C7A1 SPW.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Colt Canada C7A1 SPW?]]

:Colt Model 750/Diemaco C7 Light Support Weapon - A modified C7 with an enlarged gas tube (hence the square handguard) and a heavy barrel for sustained fire in the squad automatic weapon role. The C7 LSW is not used by the Canadian Forces but has seen service with the Dutch and Danish militaries. --[[User:Markit|Markit]] 01:34, 28 April 2011 (CDT)

::Ha! I thought so, thanks. :) Should I remove this section or keep it. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:53, 28 April 2011 (CDT)

:That's not Colt LSW, that's [http://www.colt.com/mil/CAR.asp Colt Automatic Rifle]. Follow the link and you will see that the image is the larger version of the official one. Meanwhile, [http://www.coltcanada.com/lsw-page.htm Colt LSW] has optional folding carry handle. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 09:09, 29 April 2011 (CDT)

::Thanks guys. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:02, 29 April 2011 (CDT)

:Just to clarify, the Colt automatic rifle, LSW and LMG are all the same weapon. The original version that looks like the one above was the Colt Model 750, which featured a fixed A2 carry handle and barrel mounted bi-pod, and the newer version above is the current production Model 950, with the relocated bi-pod and A4 rear sights. As you said, the folding carry handle is removeable, and the picture on the Colt website is just one without it fitted (note the longer centre vent on the top of the handguard is the mounting point for the handle). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 02:48, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

::The original version was based on M16A1:

::[[File:M16A1 CAR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

::The one you described was based on M16A2:

::[[File:M16A2 CAR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

Guys, remember back in the 1980s when Colt was trying to vie for the SAW role? Sure the FN Minimi was never knocked off its perch, but Colt came out with a Colt light Machine gun that looked a lot like this. They were selling the barreled uppers on the market for a while in the early 1990s (I know a few friends who have them, but I never got one). This looks like that reincarnated!!! LOL![[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:24, 29 April 2011 (CDT)

:Well, that's all written on [http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/m16-lsw-lmg-e.html Modern Firearms] :P

::Ah yes, you only read about it monkeyboy ;) I was handling and firing that sucker! LOL [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 03:11, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

:Oh, and I've found articles of why AR is more advantageous than SAW to US Marine Corps:

:[http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/m249-employment-concepts M249 Employment Concepts]
:[http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/m249-light-machinegun-automatic-rifle-role The M249 Light Machinegun In The Automatic Rifle Role]

:Interesting reading, methinks :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:13, 30 April 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah it was. :) You know, I kinda knew LMGs were dying out. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:07, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

::: Not overall, it's just the role they are being used in (automatic rifleman). SAW is still very good in defensive role and laying fire on attacking forces ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:33, 1 May 2011 (CDT)

== Heat Dissipation Performance of Carbine Barrel Types? ==

I was wondering, does anyone know what kind of effects the 'cuts' (originally meant for the mounting of the M203 grenade launcher) in the barrel of the M4 and similiarly-styled M16 & AR-15 series carbines has on the heat dissipation performance of the barrel? Do the cuts help the weapon release heat from prolonged firing better than a barrel that has a uniform thickness, or does it hamper that? Any input anyone can provide on this would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:46, 8 May 2011 (CDT)
:The step down for the grenade launcher is actually pretty negligible in terms of cooling (although it does create a point of weakness to bending), as what you can't see is the fact that as soon as the barrel goes under the handguard it is reduced down to the same narrow diameter as in the cut out, which creates a much bigger effect on cooling. The narrower profile sections have the effect of cooling down the barrel quicker, but they also conversely mean that the barrel heats up quicker, and the heat has a larger effect on the accuracy of the gun. The main advantage however is that it reduces the weight quite a bit. The original reason that the M4 barrel reduces in size behind the handguard is based on the M16A2, which does exactly the same thing where its heavy barrel is actually only thicker past the front sight. This was due to a cock up in the design, where they designed the gun with a full thickness straight barrel, and found that they could then no longer clamp the M203 to the barrel, so the barrels were simply turned down from behind the front sight post. The front of the barrel was left thick due to the fact that the thinner barrels on the M16A1 were being bent at the front from being used as pry-bars to get the loading bands off of shipping pallets. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 04:53, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

:There is a heavier "SOCOM-profile" barrel that maintains the same diameter beneath the handguards as the standard M4-profile barrel does around the M203 cut and it can mount the M203 just fine.[http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-M4-14SOCOM-2.jpg] [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:40, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

== can you tell me what model of m16/car 15 this is ==

sorry i do not have a pic but i can tell you what is like. me and my dad were talikng about some of the guns he used in the army and he was telling me about this one he said was like an carbine version of the m16a2 and it was like the m4 but had a fixed carring handle and it was used befor the m4 it had safe semi and burst and he said it just had ar15 on the side.-Steviebleckley

:Sounds like the first batch of M4s that were delivered. This is the Colt Model 777, which is basically an M4 with a fixed carry handle, and 3-round burst as opposed to full auto. It is the brother of and visually identical to the 727 mentioned on the main page, where the 727 as full auto as opposed to the burst. If it didn't have the M4 profile barrel though, god knows. Probably a model 654 on an M16 lower receiver or something. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 15:02, 13 June 2011 (CDT)

yes it had the same profile as the m4. i gess it was the 777.I will show him the pic of the the 727 since there the same well the 727 is full auto thanks for the info - Steviebleckley

== Question about the buffer tube ==

I'm not one hundred percent sure what it does, and (like the forward assist) that almost no other guns have it. If someone could just clarify, what does it do, why does this rifle series have it, and why don't others/what replaces the buffer tube in other rifles? Thank you in advance. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 07:27, 12 July 2011 (CDT)
:Basically, it was installed in order to slow down the rate of fire. The very first M16s ended up using a different ammunition powder than they were designed for, which caused a higher rate of fire than desired (about 800 to 1000 rpm I think), leading to excessive fouling in the chamber, and hence lots of stopages. From the M16E1 onwards a buffer tube was added to slow the rate of fire to about 600-700 rpm, and a chrome lined chamber and barrel was added as well. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:47, 12 July 2011 (CDT)
I'm not sure if this is practical in any way, or even possible, but is their a way to increase the rate of fire on an M16 without the problems of the carbon build-up in the chamber?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:29, 21 July 2011 (CDT)
:Why would you want to increase the rate of fire? - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:40, 22 July 2011 (CDT)
No reason, just wondering if it's even possible with a full-auto M16.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 08:09, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:Probably, I see no reason why you couldn't. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:40, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'm assuming the reason that the high rate of fire caused fouling was that the rate of fire was so quick that the bolt was unlocking and opening before all the powder was fully burnt in the chamber, leaving residue. I'd imagine that you could increase the rate of fire by removing the buffer, and just make sure that whatever powder you were using was fully burnt in the time it takes the bolt to open. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:29, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::That would make sense, since I heard the nightmare version of that was when the gas pressure was still holding the spent case in place while the extractor was trying to eject it, which tended to result in Horrible Things happening to the case while it was still inside the rifle. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:08, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

This might be a silly question, but why is it that the AR-15 design required the buffer tube, and other rifles do not? Is it just located differently, and if so why? It just strikes me that the lack of a folding stock option is a poor design, especially when compared to most assault rifles designed today, SCAR, ACR, etc. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 18:57, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'm guessing here, but from what I've read it's that the rifle had already been designed, so they had to work inside the box, as it were. The only options were either to make the components of the action a lot heavier so their momentum prevented the weapon cycling too fast (which would rather defy the point of using a lightweight aluminium receiver and suchlike) or add something on to slow it down, which is what they did. Rifles designed since have been designed from the ground up to avoid this kind of problem, so don't need to have a tube attached to a hole in the back of the receiver to fix them. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:08, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

:The buffer tube does two things: 1) contains the buffer and spring and 2) allows the bolt carrier to recoil part of the way into it. The combination means that the AR15-series rifles are functionally a long-recoil design where the bolt does not slam into anything rigid during recoil and stops based on the pressure of the buffer spring. This--in turn--enhances the straight-line recoil and therefore controllability during automatic fire or rapid semi-automatic fire. It also allows the AR15 design to use the rear of the bolt carrier to actuate the automatic sear meaning the probability in this design that you can set a round off with the bolt unlocked during automatic fire is nil. (Look up some of the problems with the "Lightning Link" to get a better idea of why this works the way it does.)

:Other designs often do incorporate additional recoil buffers in the stock, the FN FAL's without folding stocks do this and the plastic-stocked SAW's, but the AR15 design simply trades the ability to fold a stock for enhanced recoil handling... The idea behind the design was to make a weapon where the entire recoil force is in a direct line between your shoulder and the end of the barrel with as little jarring as possible. This is also one reason for the use of a direct gas impingement system and one reason why gas-piston AR's tend to eat the front of the buffer tube and buffer tube area of the lower receiver due to bolt carrier "tilt". The "lateral" forces of the piston tapping the top of the bolt carrier misaligns the bolt carrier off its straight line path and pushes that chunk of steel into the aluminum.

:Oh, and the forward assist is to compensate for not having a rigidly connected bolt handle. (Like someone already mentioned). The reason why is the design is meant to be operated in a manner where you ONLY use the charging handle for initial loading and then unloading at the end (administratively). Every other time, you actuate the bolt using the bolt release on the left side of the weapon... --[[User:Deathbunny|Deathbunny]] 01:28, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

== Noob Question ==

Ok I have a really dumb question, what is the difference between the Colt M4A1 and the Colt M4A1 Carbine? Or are they the same exact thing? The only reason I asked is when I was looking at the page, the M4A1 and the M4 Carbine look exactly the same, so how can you tell one from the other? - [[User:1morey]] July 22, 2011 11:21 AM (EST)

: The M4A1 and M4A1 'Carbine' are the same thing, the 'carbine' is just optionally showing the proper firearm type. As for the M4 and M4A1, well it ''does'' say the difference in the section but to answer - the M4 has Safe-Semi-Burst fire selection ala the M16A2/M16A4, the M4A1 has full-automatic instead of burst, ala the earlier M16s/M16A1/M16A3. Otherwise they're pretty much identical appearance wise (The M4A1 also has a heavier barrel inside the handguard, which of course you can't tell from the outside). It also notes some commercial AR-15 carbines are given an 'M4' moniker, but aren't the same as actual military M4s. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 12:17, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

== Colt or not? ==

If a M4 or M16 variant is listed on a page, should it by prefixed by Colt? I've noticed some people doing this but isn't it incorrect as the term M16 is the army designation as opposed to the Colt name (for example the Colt Model 603 for the M16A1). Either way, I would imagine that quite a few M16s or M4s in movies are manufactured by companies other than Colt, and even the US military rifles are not necessarily made by Colt these days. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:43, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

:I am curious... if the military M4 and M16 are not made by Colt these days then by whom? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:58, 6 September 2011 (CDT)

::There was a stretch in the 1990s when Colt lost the military contract and all the M16s were built by Fabrique Nationale (FN). Though many companies build AR15 platforms, only the company who has the contract with the Dept. of Defense can call the M16 theirs. If there ARE any other manufacturers being represented on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, someone needs to find out. I certainly don't have any contacts who would know information which is THAT current. :( [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:48, 6 September 2011 (CDT)

:::FN have stated that “the vast majority of M16A2, A3 and A4 contracts as well as spare parts contracts for these systems since 1989”, and they had a $7 million contract to make M16A4s between 2005 and 2008. Sabre defence also won a contract for a minimum of 4,952 M16A3 and 702 M16A4 rifles in July 2008 for the US navy/Marine corps respectively. Having said that FN also stated: ”...never was FN Manufacturing LLC, or any other small arms manufacturer, awarded M4 contracts. The M4 cannot be competed and always has been awarded sole source to Colt because of licensing rights restricting full and open competition until 2009” although it has stated its intention to bid for M4 contracts past this point. The US government took ownership of the M4 design on the 1st July 2009, so the M4 can now be manufactured for the government by other companies, but I don't know if this has actually been done yet. Regardless, M4 and M16 are government designations, so surely calling a gun a "Colt M4" is incorrect? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:09, 6 September 2011 (CDT)

::::Just checked the United States Army [http://www.army.mil/features/ official website]. It lists [http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/individual/m4.html M4 Carbine] as being manufactured by Colt and [http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/individual/m16.html M16 Rifle] by Colt and Fabrique Nationale.
::::Oh, and take a note of M16: ''"The '''M-16A3''' is identical to the M-16A2 but has a removable carrying handle that is mounted on a Picatinny Rail (for better mounting of optics) and is without burst control. The '''M-16A4''' is identical to the M-16A2 except for the removable carrying handle and Picatinny Rail."''
::::United States Marine Corps websites: [http://www.marines.mil/] [http://www.marines.com/] don't mention the current manufacturer for [http://www.marines.com/main/index/winning_battles/gear/weapons_and_equipment/m16 M16 Rifle]. So I am not sure about them. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:24, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::Just to throw a bit of confusion in here, there are actually a number of different rifles designated as the M16A3 by the US military. The first is the Colt Model 646, also known as the M16A2E3, which was introduced in small numbers at the same time as the M16A2 and is an A2 with an A1 lower. Then you have the flat-top Colt Model 901 which was introduced at the same time as the M16A4 (in 1994 I think) and I'm assuming this is the version that the above page refers to. You also have the Colt Models 941 and 942 which are the HBAR and HBAR LMG models respectively, but I don't know if they are used. Not that any of this really matters as we identify all these guns as A2/A4 anyway. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 03:24, 7 September 2011 (CDT)
::::::Well, that's because armorers don't have access to military M16A3s, so they just slap A2/A4 uppers to A1 lowers (correct?) because what Hollywood film director would want fixed burst firing gun (ignoring the fact that that's what soldiers and marines use) ? Or modify civilian semi-automatic replicas to fully automatic fire. In which case the weapon is to be identified as such. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:54, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::::Didn't mean to imply we are doing anything wrong, just that the definition of the A3 models isn't that important as they don't appear. Having said that, the original M16A3/M16A2E3 was just an A2 upper on an A1 lower, so this is actually what a number of movie guns are, but I understand that they are going for a standard A2. Regardless, back to my original question, do we call them Colt or not? My opinion is no obviously, as it seems that some if not the majority of M16s are manufactured by other companies, and there is the future possibility of this with M4, and regardless it is a military designation of a rifle that goes by another Colt name. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:31, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::::My opinion: M4 & M4A1 should remain as Colt. And so should older M16s. Modern M16s (M16A3 & M16A4), since they have ''at least'' 3 official manufacturers (Colt, Fabrique Nationale and Sabre Defence), should go without Colt. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:37, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

== How to NOT shoot an M16 rifle! ==

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1lyMyejpI] - Seriously, this is either really funny, or just painful to watch... you decide. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 00:19, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:Wow, that was bad. Glad that guy's alright! - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:46, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::Also, notice how many times the gun clicks and the guy keeps saying it's a "bad primer". And then he keeps hitting the forward assist, pulling on the charging handle (which is seen ejecting the unfired rounds) and hitting the bottom of the magazine even though it's already back in the gun after he kept taking it out and putting it back in prior (Someone else in the video even says 'Jesus [name withheld], you don't know how to load these.' and the shooter responds with 'I didn't load these, [name withheld] did.'). I think that could have been a contribution to the gun exploding in his hands. But then again, I'm not the expert on M16 rifles, I'm only guessing. Anyone else got a better explanation? --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 17:05, 26 September 2011 (CDT)
:::It was the shooter saying that the guy who came to help didn't know how to load them, and then that assisting guy said it was someone else. There is nothing wrong with tapping the magazine even when it appears to be seated correctly, as it makes sure it is all the way into the well. Although he did hit forward assist unnecesarily once or twice, I don't think it would have done any harm or contributed to the kaboom. The file description and all the comments say that this was a squib, and it was all the shooters fault for not identifying it and checking the barrel (there are also quite a few people that seem to think it is possible the load 2 or 3 rounds into the chamber at a time by repeatedly pulling the charging handle, but this is Youtube after all). But I don't think it was, as on the first misfire there was only the click of the hammer, and when he pulled the bolt back a round was ejected which wouldn't have been chambered if the previous "bang" was a squib. I've never fired a round with primer but no powder, but surely there would still be an audible "bang" rather than just the click of the hammer? When exactly did the bullet get stuck in the barrel, or am I missing something? Regardless, I would never use ammo I hadn't loaded myself, particularly not done by a friend of a friend. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:33, 26 September 2011 (CDT)
::::I think it's safe to say that the idea of unintentionally loading 2 or 3 rounds into the chamber of an M16 rifle is an overstatement and pretty much absurd (I've NEVER heard of such a thing happening with the M16 rifles). But one person's explanation in the comments is that when the hammer struck the primers of the "squib" rounds, the 'click' in question was the popping of the primer, which popped with enough force to lodge the bullets into the barrel of the gun, but without the 'bang' sound since the powder of the "squib" rounds were bad. So when the explosion happened, it was because the hammer struck a perfectly fine round, or one with enough charge in it's powder load, and that bullet impacted the other bullets stuck in the barrel, which caused a high-pressure situation ending with the magazine blowing apart, and leaving the M16 rifle damaged (probably for good). Talk about good craftsmanship going to waste! But at least the shooter in the video was not injured in any way. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 05:51, 30 September 2011 (CDT)
:::::I could be wrong as have never done it myself (I am not a moron) but I am fairly sure that a primer going off with no powder in the round makes a louder noise than just a click, which is all that is heard in this video. Anyone know how loud just the primer from a .223 would be? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 07:05, 30 September 2011 (CDT)
::::::Apparently [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS1K1zJQhOQ this] is a .308 primer. Now bear in mind how far down the audio is turned (as you don't have to wear ear protection when he fires), I can ''kinda'' see that might end up sounding like a click. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:52, 30 September 2011 (CDT)
:::::::Yeah, most of the time all cameras (except for maybe the professional ones used by filmmakers) capture certain sounds differently. It is possible for the primers of "squib" rounds to discharge with enough force to lodge the bullets into the barrel of whatever gun it's fired from (and sometimes it will stay there until the owner disassembles their weapon and removes the lodged bullet), and most of the time, the "popping" sound of the primers sounds like a "click" when captured on a camera similar to the one used in the video of the M16 blowing up in that guy's face. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 00:28, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

:I've seen this video before, looks like the guy was pulling a half-assed SPORTS drill several times while the weapon was malfunctioning on him. But yeah, shooting custom-loaded ammo with no reliable means of quality control is definitely not a good idea, as this video clearly demonstrates. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 23:52, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

== Not working ==

Why is the M16 page not working. It locks up my computer, and the network wont respond. It takes about 5 to 10 minutes before it will work.[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

:It might be your browser and / or RAM is having trouble with the size of it; this is the largest page on the site. What's the spec of your PC? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:03, 5 October 2011 (CDT)

==Difference between original M16 and M16A2==
I know how to distinguish XM16E1s, M16A1s, and M16A4s from each other, but how are both the M16 and the M16A2 different visually? Both rifles have no forward assist or removable carrying handles and the M16 can also appear with a "birdcage" flash hider. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 00:34, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:M16-SP1-30Mag.jpg‎|thumb|none|500px|M16 aka SP1 (flat "slab side receiver") with an A1 "birdcage" Flash hider - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:M16A2.jpg|thumb|500px|none|M16A2 Rifle - 5.56x45mm. Select Fire rifle (Safe/Semi/3 round Burst Only).]]

:I'll try. Also with the caveat that I have to replace the movie M16s on the site. An IMFDB member whom I am eternally grateful for, pointed out that I had A2 lowers on A1 uppers. Though that works, it's also not correct. I have to replace the M16 pics with exact versions of each one, but that will take time. I just point this out to make sure that people know I'm aware of it.

1) M16: original USAF contract in Vietnam and in the U.S. slab side upper and lower, 1st pattern duckbill three prong flash hider, original buttstock with foldable rear sling swivel. Early models had counter-turning screws in stead of pivot pins to attach the upper and lower receiver.

1) XM16E1: 2nd pattern three prong flash hider, Chromed bolt, exposed mag release button (no ribbing) but there is a partial rib for the front pivot detent pin and spring, old M16 style buttstock and rear sling swivel, tear drop forward assist.

2) M16A1: Birdcage Flash hider, Phosphate bolt but chromed chamber, mag release button ribbing to protect against accidental mag dump and full ribbing to the front pivot detent pin and spring, A1 style buttstock with fixed rear sling swivel (with stowaway compartment in the buttplate)

3) M16A2: A2 style flash hider with no holes on the lower part, ring washer instead of lock washer, heavy barrel, round forearm, full ribbing on mag release button and front pivot detent pin and spring, front part of lower receiver is beefier and thicker as well as the rear part near the base of the tube ring. Updated and longer (by about 1") rear buttstock and thicker buttplate, slight finger ledge on the pistol grip about midway down. Adjustable rear sights with elevation control as well as side to side. A2 does NOT have a detachable carry handle.

Hope this helps. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:26, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

:Don't forget that the M16A2 has semi/3-round burst as opposed to semi/full auto in the M16 (though you rarely see this feature used on-screen as most directors feel the full auto looks better than a 3-round burst). [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 04:15, 6 October 2011 (CDT)
No versions of the M16 has screws rather than push pins at the front of the receiver. The only rifles that have these are the Sporter 1 rifles (which is what all of the pictures on the main page are actually of). The M16s that pre-date the captive push pin (Models 601 and 602) have a large headed push pin that is held in place by a ball detent on the pin itself. Also, the "M16" category can be separated out into 3 different guns which the USAF used seqeuntially in turn. First is the original 601 which has green furniture, original "duckbill" flash hider and triangular charging handle (around 14,500 were made, 8,500 to USAF, 1,000 to the Army for evaluation and the rest to special forces, police, and a number of Asian countries). The 602 is the quintessential slab sided M16, and introduced the updated 3 pronged flash hider, black furniture, the current "T" shaped charging handle. The third "M16" is what is often called the USAF M16 and was the most produced variant, and was the Model 604. Early versions had the M16E1 type partial fence lower, whilst the later versions had the M16A1 full fence lower, and these weapons continued to be used by Air Force until 2001, when all M16s were updated to the A2 standard. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:58, 6 October 2011 (CDT)
::Cool! Thanks [[User:Commando552|commando552]] As I've said before, I pulled movie armory weapons. Very rarely do I get access to actual firearms museums, but then 99% of the full auto guns were probably sporter conversions, since it was much easier to convert a title I to a class III gun prior to 1986. I have a LONG laundry list of photos to update thanks to you guys! ;) But the information helps. Also only in recent months have i realized how many franken guns were built in the 1970s/80s and 90s on the M16 platform. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 22:24, 21 October 2011 (CDT)

Pics of the different M16s I mentioned above:
[[File:Colt 601.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 601 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[File:Colt 602.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 602 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[File:USAF Colt Model 604.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 604 (USAF M16) - 5.56x45mm]]
--[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:48, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

== Historical Question ==

Anyone knows why XM177 never dropped the 'X' letter in it? If 'X' usually implies the prototype and testing stage, then why did XM177 have it with both upgrades and use in service, and the jamming M16s in Vietnam didn't? Or some other reasons? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:02, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ignoring the USAF rifles (which got official GAU designations) the US Army only purchased a few thousand XM177s and the kinks were never really ironed out, so it is fair to call it an XM program still. Rifle was still in development stages really when US Army cut the funding due to Vietnam war involvement being scaled back.. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 13:27, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

::Were the Colt Commandos used in Somalia much more refined versions of XM177 program? If yes, I wonder why they were not put back in official service... --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:19, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Do you have a pic of them, not sure what rifles you are talking about. If you are talking about the Model 733, that is not really related to the XM177s. US forces purchased a small number of Model 733s for Special Forces and was called the M16A2 commando, although Colt later offered it as the M4 Commando. Rangers and Delta in Somalia also used both Model 723s (A1 rear sight a straight barrel) and 727s (A2 rear sight with M4 profile barrel) and these weapons were known initially as M16A2 carbines, before morphing into the M4. Till the early 90s there were still some Model 653s (called the M16A1 carbine) and XM177s with the long moderators replaced with birdcages knocking around as well, so there were probably a lot of different guns knocking around Somalia. These guns were not refinements though, they were guns from the 60/70s that were still being used due to the fact that the US Army did not produce a standard issue carbine till the M4. I'm not even gonna mention the franken-guns that would have been used by the USAF special forces at the time. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:08, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

::::Ah, thanks, that explains it. [http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/449652_going_for_a_1993_Somalia_car15_build_and_need_your_help.html Here are the various photos]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:26, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

== Colt Carbine/Model 653/Model 727/Model 733 ==

Firstly, forgive my ignorance in things regarding the variety of AR-15 models. In the model description it says that it was 'never adopted formally by the US Military, and thus never had an "M" or "XM" designation.' However, in the following section where it lists the movies in which we can find this rifle it is often found as the M653. Can someone more knowledgeable either clear up why there is this discrepancy? Thanks --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 18:34, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

:Editors (and video game developers) often confuse the 'Model', 'M' and 'MK' designations. M653 should be changed to Model 653. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:14, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

::Correct. Model "___" is the official COLT designation and usually comes first. Only when the weapon is adopted as an official front line weapon does it get the "M" designation. And all these minutia of details in the weapons history STILL gives me a headache! ;) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 03:01, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

:::So does that mean we need to clean up this section to take all the 'M's away?--[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 08:11, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

::::I've replaced the "M"s with Models --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:22, 24 October 2011 (CDT)

== Colt Model 978 ==

'''I took this from Wikipedia, so it might be wrong.''' A lot of video games like to portray the M4A1 with additional burst mode. I read that the Colt Model 978 (a.k.a. "M4 Carbine Enhanced") is an M4 that features a S-1-3-F trigger group. I wonder how popular this variant was/is and most importantly when was it finalized and released? (if it was ever) - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:15, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:The four position fire selector weapons were adopted by nobody as far as I know, with the exception of Greece who bought the Model 778 (don't know how widespread this was, have just seen a few in some pics), which is basically a Model 727 with the four position selector. You can actually buy parts for a four position selectors, sears and disconnectors from Colt, so guns can be modified to this standard. However, I guarantee you that no guns in games actually have the correct four position selector, as it looks different to the standard one. Can't find any pics right now, but the four position selector is a flat plate with a ridge along the centre that ends in an odd knurled dome, sort of like a citrus juicer.

:I have also heard of US Special Forces having the four posiiton M4A1s (Model 978), but may just be rumors, and if true there are very few of them and certainly not widespread. They could also be modifications to standard M4s. Below is a pic of the side of a Model 738 M4 Commando Enhanced (Model 733 with the four position selector) showing the selector switch design.

:--[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:37, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:[[File:Colt Model 738.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Colt Model 738 "M4 Commando Enhanced" fire selector.]]

:Which games portray the M4A1 with additional burst mode, for example? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:40, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

::Ghost Recon features the normal A1 and the "M4 SOCOM" which has the bonus burst mode. Same in The Sum of All Fears game (both Tom Clancy games). Cannot think of any other games right now. (Maybe I was a little exaggerating when I wrote "a lot of" since in most games you can't even toggle the rof.) So, according to what commando552 wrote, it is possible that the M4A1 with S-1-3-F group in Ghost Recon was intentional, since you control a (fictional) U.S. special force. (And the correct trigger groups: We (at least I) don't take the selectors into account, since in most games you cannot even see them, or are set to safe while the gun goes all rock&roll.)- [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 07:55, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Well, yeah, the universe of Tom Clancy is the one where the prototypes and ultra rare things come true, including weapons and vehicles, so the presence of AR-15-type firearm with four-position selector switch shouldn't come as surprise ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:48, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

::::Bozitojugg3rn4ut, the selector really should be taken into account, as apart from the receiver markings the selector switch is the only external difference between the regular Colt carbines and the Enhanced version with burst and auto. If it has the regular fire selector and lacks the markings on the receiver, then it is simply and M4 with the wrong fire control group. Is very hard to tell from the Ghost Recon screen shots as there aren't any of the relevant side, but you can just make out that there are only 3 positions marked on the right side of the receiver, making the physical model that of a regular M4/M4A1 rather than an Enhanced M4. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:09, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

Interestingly, this discussion is the first result when one Googles "Colt Model 978". [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:05, 19 December 2011 (CST)

== Main Page ==

There are 2 issues:

1) Shouldn't it be called AR-15, since ArmaLite AR-15 is the weapon that started it all?

2) There is at least 1 not-rifle on the page: [[M16 rifle series#Colt 9mm Submachine Gun|Colt 9mm Submachine Gun]]

--[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:58, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

:I agree, AR-15 makes much more sense to me. I would call the page "AR-15 Variants", gets rid of the problem that "M16" is only relevant 5 or 6 of the 30 or so guns on the page, and the fact that rifle is not necessarily the correct term for all of them. I'm not sure how the site mechanics work, but would changing the name of the page create a massive problem for the 1000+ pages that link here, or would the redirects sort it all out? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:44, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

::Need to contact admins and ask them about this. I support your version, as more appropriate one. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:17, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Though you are technically correct, M16 is the most widely recognized nomenclature for the weapons that appear in films. Remember that we are not a gun encyclopedia, we are a weapons in MOVIE/TV/et al wiki. Sure, we utilized those rules of starting with the original weapon when it came to more obscure weapons (like grouping the R4s in with the Galils), but really famous weapons have their own pages, weapons that a firmly entrenched with their own identity in the mind of the movie going public. We also did not start a StG-44 page and then branch the AK-47s out from that even though the AKs obviously were a stepchild of the StG-44 Design theory. Very rarely are guns 'presented' as AR-15s in media. In fact many movie goers don't even recognize the term. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 18:13, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

::::I don't remember many movies where the character says: "Here is my M16!" or where the weapon is listed in closing credits :\
::::The reason for AK-47 not being on the same page as StG-44 is having completely different design. AK-47 was ''inspired'' by StG project, nothing more. There are a lot of weapons that bear a ''resemblance'' to AK-47 or AR-15 but have different design and thus their own page. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:29, 31 October 2011 (CDT)
::::'''P.S.''' Imagine IMFDB consisting of pages: ''"M1911"'', ''"Desert Eagle"'', ''"MP5"'', ''"Garand"'', ''"M14"'', ''"M16"'', ''"AK-47"'', ''"Everything Else"'' :D

::::Now, [http://kingshamus.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/official.jpg THIS] made me laugh xD --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:34, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

== What is the point of the Colt 9mm SMG? ==

Every time I look at it just seems so useless. I mean, why would anyone want what is essentially an M4 that does less damage with less range? Recoil would be lower I presume, but I cant see an M4 having a gigantic amount of recoil. I'm sure someone could help provide me with some insight but at the moment I'm finding it very hard pressed to find a purpose of this thing. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 14:20, 14 December 2011 (CST)
:I imagine it had more to do with some guys at Colt wanting to get in on the 9mm subgun market but not wanting to design an entire new platform to do it with. The 9mm round also gives you less penetration, which is good if, say, you're trying to shoot the guy you're aiming at only rather than him and the three things behind him. This is why the majority of people who actually use it are police or police-like units. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:42, 14 December 2011 (CST)
::The main advantage of it is that it is an SMG with the same ergonomics as an AR-15 platform, which makes training easier. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 15:27, 14 December 2011 (CST)
:::9mm is much easier to suppress compared to 5.56. But Evil Tim's answer about Colt not wanting to design a whole new SMG is probably the right one.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 16:13, 14 December 2011 (CST)

== M4 Scope optics ==

Can someone give me some info on what is the standard scope optic for the military, and what is the best scope optic to use on the M4? i was just curious--Gunner5

:Which military? The M4 is used by a number of them in some capacity. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:53, 19 December 2011 (CST)

U.S. Military.--Gunner5

:The most common, I would think, are the ACOG and Aimpoint RDS, but just about any optic can be used on it. As far as what's the best optic to use, "best" is a relative term and depends on the individual shooter and what he/she prefers. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 02:01, 20 December 2011 (CST)

== USE WITH S.A.S ==

Why does the S.A.S use the M16A2 as their standard rifle? In Bravo Two Zero (the book), Andy McNab calls the M16A2 a 4x4, and the SA80 a Rolls-Royce. Looking back, the S.A.S have a history of using foreign weapons. Why is this? Do Britain not make good enough weapons? Sure, the only thing we currently make and export are Accuraccy International's (which are the best sniper rifles in the world, and I don't care what anyone else says. It strikes me as strange, though, why the S.A.S use the AW50 and not the AS50 as their heavy-caliber sniper rifle), but why do the S.A.S have to use American weapons? Why not use German?

:"...''have'' to use American weapons?" You have some kind of grudge against American weapons or something? :P In any case, the events of ''Bravo Two Zero'' took place during the first Gulf War, so I really doubt they're still using M16A2s in this age of optics and rail systems. It's my understanding that their ''current'' "standard" long gun is the C8FTHB carbine, which is essentially an M4A1 with a 16" barrel of different profile to that of a standard M4. As to why, well, they use what they ''want'' to use, whether it be British, American, German, whatever. Much like their American counterparts in CAG and DEVGRU, they have the leeway and budget to get a little bit of everything because their mission calls for it. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:30, 7 January 2012 (CST)

::The SAS adopted the M16 as a replacement for the 7.62 L1A1 SLR which was the standard British rifle at the time. The SLR was superior in terms of reliability, accuracy and range, but the M16 had a major weight advantage in terms of both the weapon and the ammunition, could mount a grenade launcher, and was capable of automatic fire (so was the SLR, but a match was required to be inserted into the action). One of the reasons they continued to use it after the introduction of the SA80 rifles was due to initial reliability problems, along with the fact that until relatively recently the SA80 culd not use an underbarrel grenade launcher (M16s were also used by other units, such as some Royal Marine units and the Pathfinders). Don't really know the exact reason why the SAS (along with Military Police and Royal Marine close protection along with a few others) use the C8SFW/CQB rather than the SA80 but would imagine it is partially due to the lower weight and the modularity of the SFW (bear in mind that the SA80 didn't have a railed forened until a few years ago and has only just gotten a MIL-STD-1913 on the top for different sights). Unlike the M16s adopted before, the C8 has actually been officially adopted by the MOD as the L119A1 (both the SFW and the CQB share the same designation though). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:17, 7 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Casino Royale (2006)

2012-01-07T23:00:16Z

StarSummers: /* PPK */ new section

Talk:True Grit (2010)

2012-01-07T06:50:13Z

StarSummers: /* Sharps1874 or 1868? (moved from main movie page) */

== A remake? ==

I know that the original ''[[True Grit]]'' was made 42 years ago and for many movie-goers it might as well have been made 100 years ago, but still that's pretty gutsy. Rooster Cogburn was the role that got [[John Wayne]] his Oscar and the original movie is a classic. However I will probably go and see this one whne it comes out at Christmas. I like [[Jeff Bridges]] and the Coen Brothers. Change of pace for them as well. Well somewhat. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

They're both based on a novel by Charles Portis. The Coen's version is apparently closer to the book than the 1969 film is.--[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]]

The Coen Brothers version looks like it's going to be a lot darker and grittier than the other one. It looks badass. -[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Those that have read the book know that it also has a good deal of humor, thanks to the first person narration of Mattie Ross. I hope and trust the Coens to include that aspect as well, though not in a voice-over.
-[[User:Blokhed|Blokhed]] 29 September 2010

I'm glad that Josh Brolin is in this. It'll make up for his piece-of-crap ''Jonah Hex'' movie. --[[User:Swordfish941|Swordfish941]] 15:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Well I watched it last night. It's pretty good. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 15:24, 11 June 2011 (CDT)

==Unknown Winchester==

Rooster is also seen firing a Winchester at one point in the trailer, though I can't discern which model.

:It looks like a Model 1873, or possibly an 1876. I say it could be an 1876 because of the rather large bore diameter. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

[[Image:tg-winchester-rooster.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rooster takes aim with his Winchester.]]
[[Image:TG 01.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:TG 02.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

=="Rooster" Cogburn charge==

"Rooster" Cogburn could be using his Single Action Army and Mattie Ross Colt Dragoon because it looks like only the gun in his left has a loading lever

nevermind in one of the TV spot trailers is shows there there both Colt navy or Colt Dragoon, it hard to tell

-- I just saw the movie, and can confirm that he uses his two 1851 Navys, contrary to my earlier identification of one Navy and one Dragoon. In fact he never handles Mattie's Dragoon apart from the beginning. -- Blokhed 12/26/10

The revolvers Rooster uses in making the charge are both 2nd model Colt Dragoons. He carries them in pommel holsters on the forks of his saddle. They are from the description in the Portis novel. They are the same model as Mattie's pistol. the reference to "Navy sixes" was an error in dialogue. Rooster carries a 7 1/2" Colt "Peacemaker" in a belt holster as described in the novel.

During the Corn Bread Shoot, when the Dragoon is seen in his hand, i believe it was meant to stand in for one of his 1851 Navies. He empties his SAA, when retrieving more corn bread, the holsters on his saddle is only holding one of his Navies. http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-04h01m39s156.png Note here, the near side holster is clearly holding a pistol while here, http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-03h58m43s23.png the holster is now clearly empty. The scene between these two is the clear shot of the Dragoon in his hands. -MissySummers-

== How does he fire right handed? ==

Hes blind in his right eye yet he fires long guns right handed, how could he be accurate without seeing the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Which hand you use does not matter, eye dominance does. For example, my father shoots right handed while is left eye dominant. - Jeff

You don't get it, he can't SEE out of his right eye, how can he aim if he can not SEE the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:54, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

you just tilt you head so you left eye is lined up with the sights.

Yeah, note the first picture above, his head is tilted far enough to use his left eye. (Im also right handed and left eye dominant.)

== The rope around the Henry Rifle. ==

I think the rope Brolin's character uses as a carrying strap should be mentioned because i just saw the film in theaters and the 3 other people that were with me were confused with what that was. Don't ask.

== Sharps1874 or 1868? (moved from main movie page) ==

I have seen this carbine mis-identified ever since this movie came out. Apparently others are just repeating what someone else assumed. It was not an 1874 Sharps carbine, of which only 496 were made. He (like the real Texas rangers, see Durham’s “Taming the Nueces Strip”) is using an 1868 Sharps carbine conversion. .50-70….of which 31,000 were converted. from Percussion to Cartridge and distributed to troops and millitia’s and yes, texas rangers…was in use into the 80s.

If you want a replica of that gun, somebody makes an exact one of McNelly’s which is exactly like the one Matt Damon’s character is using.

bc

:: I can find absolutely NO proof of this statement in the slightest. The 1874 was a popular sporting rifle, and it was produced on a large scale from its induction. -MissySummers-

== Chaney's Henry and sling ==

I just corrected some of the description. In the book, the Henry was NOT stolen from Mattie's father; it is described as Chaney's rifle from the beginning. Also, the book makes special mention of the fact that he uses "a piece of cotton plow line" for a sling. "He could have taken an old piece of harness and made a nice leather strap for it. That would have been too much trouble." - Blokhed, 2/9/11

Is it just me or does the rope obstruck the sights?--[[User:Mattatack92|Mattatack92]] 23:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It does obstruck the sights, but we never actually see him fire from the shoulder in the movie.--[[User:Insight11|Insight11]] 20:43, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

(moved from main page)
[[Image:Tg-henry-2.jpg|thumb|none|300px|The poster shows [[Josh Brolin]] as Chaney with the Henry.]]

==Possible identification error==
In this image, it appears Cogburn is holding Mattie's Colt Dragoon. The barrel and frame appear thicker than on a Navy Colt, and the loading lever latch is smaller like a Dragoon, instead of covering the whole front of the loading lever like on a Navy. Also, the all around size of the revolver appears larger than a Navy. In the other shots it does appear he uses Navy Colts, but I think in this scene he may have used Mattie's gun to shoot the corn dodgers with.
[[File:TG10 002.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
- [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

Talk:The A-Team (2010)

2012-01-06T01:19:15Z

StarSummers: /* Hannibal's sidearm */

== Bradley Cooper: Fully Automatic ==
If you purchase the Unrated Extended Edition on I-tunes it comes with a very cool extra feature about Bradley Cooper really taking well to the M4, and to guns in general. Joe Carnahan is a shooter and gun owner himself, and he seems to really get a kick out of Cooper becoming a shooter. It has a ton of behind the scenes material with the guys training, and it also has an unseen sequence of Cooper reloading and firing the M4 that HEAT fans will enjoy.

== Hannibal 1911 hi res pic ==

http://www.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/The-A-Team-movie-image-9.jpg

I just watched the trailer. Is that tank an XM8 Buford? Wow.

:As a note, the M8 AGS was never called the Buford. It's believed to have actually been coined by Tom Clancy in his book ''Armored Cav: A Guided Tour of an Armored Cavalry Regiment'' and picked up on by others. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:49, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

A-Team -- B-movie?

''-Implying B-movie is a bad thing.''--[[User:AlkoTanko|AlkoTanko]] 15:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

No shit. I mean come on, the trailer shows one of the team shooting down an F-18 with a mounted machine gun on a tank, WHILE THE TANK IS FALLING OUT OF THE GODDAMNED SKY!!! Even kicking your transmission of disbelief into high gear won't help that.[[User:StrikerDelta|StrikerDelta]]
:Consider the source material. You've got four special forces guys who expend thousands of rounds of ammo and yet manage to not even wound, much less kill, anyone in five years, all while somehow evading arrest while riding around in a VERY distinctive vehicle driven by an even more distinctive driver. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 05:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Well dude if you pay attention to the shows audience, it was a helluva a lot of kids on a friday night, they didn't want it to be to violent, but you have to give them this, of there was a tire to be shot it was shot.
I think the original was more believable cause it was back in the day no satellites and databases no APB's so its probably hard to catch them if they go all around, nowadays the show wouldn't work just to unrealistic.
it looked like a drone not a fighter
Yeah its a drone still stupid

it aspost to be an over the top action movies

It's an MQ-1 Predator which is a UAV. Also the film is Fictitious. Made for peoples enjoyment to get away from the real world by watching something impossible done on film. what's the problem with that.
[[User:moviemaster1993|moviemaster1993]]

also lately in films and tv show they have been showing UAV to by mounted with machine guns when they can only by fitted with missiles and bombs.

REMOVED FROM MAIN PAGE (Regarding Hannibal's 1911):
:It was definitely a Para-Ordnance model .45, you can see it has a wider grip, his mags are double stacked, and the logo is on the right side of the slide. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::And Hannibal obviously uses two different guns as his sidearms; first one in the film's first half, when Hannibal and his Team are still working for the government, and the second during the latter half. Most noticeable is the diffrence between the front slide serrations: the first one has six, and the second one has only three. --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 23:39, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
::: The Special features on the Blu Ray give it as a "Para-Ordnance P14-45 Limited". Ten in the mag, one in the spout. .45 ACP, semi-auto. --[[User:Milkovich|Milkovich]] 17:13, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

== M4A1 ==

Can anyone post some links or pictures of these rifles used in the Movie?
I am really loving those Olive Foregrips and Stock.

UPDATE: Could the M4A1 actually be this?
[[Image:M6A1.jpg|thumb|right|500px|LWRC M6A1, 5.56x45mm NATO]]
:no, this is too expensive. Also note their rifles have step-down on the barrels for nubtube fixation.

::Armorers tend to mostly use what they have in inventory already. They're not going to go out and buy all-new ARs (since all such rifles are so similar). It's more likely that these are just regular M4A1s that have been fitted with the olive furniture. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 00:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

::And the M203 is ''not'' a "noob tube"... [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:24, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Right, someone's been playing too much MW2 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 15:24, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The gun is in fact the LWRC M6A1.

: According to the Special features on the Blu Ray they are "Bushmaster XM15-E2S"--[[User:Milkovich|Milkovich]] 18:55, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

About these M4s. I actually saw a picture of the A-Team running away from an explosion, in IMDB, okay and I saw Hannibal's M4 had an EOTech sight on it. And Face's M4 must have been the only one with the Red Dot Sight on it. I didn't want to post the actual picture, due to me fearing copyright, but is it alright if I provide just the link to that picture? [[User:Shoockeye7665|Shoockeye7665]] 12:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Why does it still say tan magpul furniture, looks FG to me. - skyrider

== Hannibal's sidearm ==

No doubt about it: Hannibal's 1911 is in fact a Para-ord. The slide serrations spell it all out on this one. 6 in back - offset under sights - with 3 in front. Looks like a P14 with front cocking serrations milled, or more likely an S14 with night sights. You even see the finish in the movie, and it almost looks like they've just sprayed over the stainless. Regardless, it's a Para. If not one specific, it could just be a mix-master hi-cap. --[[User:Gwhysow|Gwhysow]] 23:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I recently saw a production still in a magazine of Hannibal and he had a shoulder holster on with what appeared to carry a 1911 variant possibly a Kimber Custom II.

Any chance at someone identifing the brand/type of shoulder holster that Hannibal uses? [[Spades of Columbia]]

Just saw the movie last night; Hannibal's 1911 is most certainly not a Kimber of any sort. Slide serrations are way off, so who knows. Almost looked like a custom slide from Caspian, but still wouldn't bet on it.

As for the leather shoulder rig, it looked a lot like a DeSantis.

To me the 1911 looks like a Para p-14 or some sort of variant, take a look at one of the promo pics where you can see it in the shoulder holster. Looks like a double-stack grip to me, but maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me.

:I just saw this movie, and I agree that it's not a Kimber Warrior (lacks the Picatinny rail). My guess is Colt XSE. It's also likely that it was a custom 1911 assembled by the movie's armorers; the slide could be Colt, frame could be something else. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 02:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

No it's defiantly a Kimber possibly a Custom some don't have rails. Confirmed by the films armorer the same guy who confirmed Face's Glock as a 17 standard finish.

::I need to see that evidence before you change it back (link please). And if it's not a Warrior, then don't put down that it is. It's better to say "Unknown 1911" if we don't know the exact model. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 11:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

:: If I can find it I will post the link but I watched as a special on Sleuth or FX I forget.

It seems that Hannible uses multiply 1911's through out the movie...but it looked as if the 1911 that Lynch said was Hannibles personal weapon that he attempted to frame hannible with at the end of the movie was a Nighthawk GRP or even the enforcer model. But pretty sure he didn't use the same 1911 the whole time. [[Spades of Columbia]]

::The gun was heavily ruined to make it look more used by a Veteran. When Hannibal pulled a gun on Baracus I had seen a large logo (that not seen a trademark) on the right side of the slide near the front grooves (Can anyone confirm?). It is possible that this logo is of the Rangers, as was done with the logo of SEAL TEAM 4 on the Augustus Gibbons Colt XSE in [[XXX 2: State of the Union#Colt XSE M1911|XXX 2]]. [[User: Charly Driver|Charly Driver]]

it could be a Nickel Plated Nighthawk FLX. these are fairly new guns, but as stated on the page. are double stacked.

[[Image:FLX 2.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Nighthawk FLX - .45 ACP]]

I'd say thats probably a very accurate guess. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 05:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Good lookin piece but the front grip serrations are all kinds of diffrent.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 12:50, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

It can't be a double stack/para. In that last picture you see more than 3 serrations in the front and you can even imagine a single stack mag at the bottom. Also you can see in the grip/right above the trigger area that it is flat. Double stack guns have it widen for the wide magazine.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/para1.jpg
look straight above the magazine catch
EDIT: Actually after rewatching, it is probably both and it is just switched throughout the movie- skyrider

Yeah, thats what i was saying. Hannible uses more then one 1911 in this movie.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 16:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I love Nighthawk 1911's - and I would like to see one in a movie - but his 1911 doesn't run a 2011 frame.--[[User:Gwhysow|Gwhysow]] 18:33, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

its a shame. ud think with games like MW2 or Medal of Honor that has Elite units ud think theyd have Multiple Nighthawk variants. Delta Force uses them thanks to larry Vickers.

would the guns firing pin be removed or replanted so easily?

It would be that easy if his gun is based on a series 70...but if his gun had a firing pin safety then no you couldn't do what he did as easy.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 10:48, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

:Are there 1911's with firing pin safeties? :\ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:54, 4 November 2011 (CDT)
::Yes the Series 80 Colt's, Para, Kimber, a few others as well. Those without, Springfield for example use a titanium firing pin with a heavy spring to pass the drop test.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 16:07, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

I was wondering if we should seperate the obvious single stack 1911 thats seen briefly at the beginning of the movie? I notice that its noted to be a different gun, and i know its SUPPOSED to be standing in for the Para, but its obviously not, should we move it out from the Para entry or at the very least, note that its a stand in, not just say its the same gun but caption it different. -MissySummers-

== Not a lot of new guns ==

I am a bit disappointed that they didn't have a wide variety of weapons used int his movie [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

:I was a little more disappointed by the dialogue, the way in which the action scenes were directed, and the excessive cheese throughout. And I tend to think that kind of stuff matters a little more than the variety of weapons. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 02:56, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I saw a guy with an Uzi at the bank, and I'm sure the Sig 552 isn't. It has a ful rail on top.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 18:28, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

:I don't think it was a 556; the receiver didn't look like it (mostly around the magazine well). Also, they make continuous rails for the 552. I think it's more likely that they just took a 552, removed the stock, and gave it the upper rail, though I could be wrong. We'll see when the Blu Ray becomes available. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 13:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

:I thought it was a 552 the first time. After viewing again I'm pretty sure it was the 556 pistol, it seemed to be using STANAG magazines. And for posterity, I enjoyed the stupid dialog and oozing cheese. C'mon its the A Team its not gonna be oscar worthy, its gonna be guns, explosions, stupidity and deus ex machina. =P [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 15:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
:: The first thing that came to mind when I saw Pike carrying the "552" was (strangely enough) a KAC PDW or a Robinson XCR... though I admit I never paid that much attention to what he was using. :S (BTW, I also enjoyed it for it's over-the-top cheesiness. It's exactly what I was expecting out of an A-team movie.)*EDIT* just saw the movie again with my GF... when Pike first gets out of the car at the beginning of the scene I could clearly tell it was a Sig 552. No full-top rail, no forward vertical grip that I could see. Later the gun looks like it may have switched. This may be either an editing or continuity error.

It looks just like the Sig 556 pistol...[[Spades of Columbia]]

:Somebody added some new pictures:

:[[Image:A-TEAM_PIKE.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

:That is definitely a SIG 552 with the stock removed. Handguards, magwell, sights, etc. are totally wrong for a 556. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 02:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

you are correct...the front gas adjustment is a 552 design and not even close the 556.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

stock hasnt been removed its just folded to the left side of the gun. handy little touch that makes it a more concealable package, i do think they change the doctor sight though. [[User:fenris357|fenris357]]

:Actually, the stock on all SIG 550-series rifles folds to the right, not the left. His gun is clearly missing the stock. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 21:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

== Mini 14 ==
Hannibal was firing full auto, wouldn't that make it an AC-556? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 12:32, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

He may have just been firing quickly, like they did in the original TV show.

In the picture we have, it looks like a Ruger Mini 14 stainless with a factory ruger folding stock. Look at the front sight. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

He was using a stainless semi-auto with the older front blade sight, and a factory folding stock. I didn't notice what I'd call full auto firing, just rapid fire semi-auto. I believe the pic on the main page is in fact an AC-556, and not representative of the one used in the film. The one in the film did NOT have the birdcage flash-hider or the mid-barrel mounted front sight. For reference, it was this gun: http://www.armco-guns.com/Mini%2014%20folder%20%202.JPG --[[User:Rugerlvr|Rugerlvr]] 00:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

:If he was firing semi-auto, then he had an impossibly fast trigger finger. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:56, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

The sound editing could have made it sound full auto. I'll need to watch the movie again [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 18:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

: I'm with Spartan, I'm pretty sure he was firing full-auto. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 19:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Its definatly still a semi, he fires fairly fast, but its about one round per bad guy and is definatly not full auto --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 22:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I just watch the movie last night; it's definitely semi. -SasquatchJim

== Nice Little Things ==

There were a few small things in this movie that made me smile, things you don't see in most movies, like when Pike was in the car and they were gonna shoot him, and the CIA guys were failing with the Beretta, and one called it a silencer and he muttered something about it being a suppressor. And I also noticed for once the Armorer was in the credits, as "Armorer/Firearms", and for the most part all the fights and reloading and such were very good, there were only a couple little things that seemed a ''little'' off, but it was almost perfect :)

Pike may have been a traitorous fink, but at least he wasn't stupid. Why is the CIA always inept, despite being super-evil? They can listen to your phone conversations half a world away but ''still'' can't pull of their evil schemes. 2 things I didn't like about the embassy scene: One, the CIA just walks through security. I was so wishing a dozen marines with M16s would stop them, and 2: the extradition order. If Sosa was a bright as she usually was, she would have maid sure it wasn't a fake. I wouldn't put it past the oh-so-evil CIA to do that.

== Mk 19 ==

wasnt there one at the end of the film?

When? I remember an M2, but no Mk19.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 00:23, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

near the end, at the docks, where lynch is up on that crane. I could have sworn there was a Mk 19 sitting next to him.

== Frankfurt am Main skyscrapers ==

You can replace the "Koeniggs Bank" in the last section (where Baracus fires the M203 launcher) with "Königsbank". I am not sure if the "ö" causes problems with the code of this website, but you may give it a try. --Paul_Baeumer [[Special:Contributions/84.181.224.167|84.181.224.167]] 18:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

== Pikes SIG ==

Im sure pike was using a 228 not a 226 as it looked compact and for some reason i couted off his rounds he fired before reloading. 13, same mag cap as the 228 --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 18:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

:Nope, it was a 226. I saw the squared trigger guard myself. I also own a 226 and know SIGs pretty well, so I am pretty confident about this. Also, counting the rounds fired is a bad way to figure out the type of gun used; we all know movies never show reloading, making it look like actors fire hundreds of rounds from 30-shot mags. Same principle applies here. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

My mistake, I just streamed that scene and you are right its definatly too long to be a 228 --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 18:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

What is on the rail of pikes Sig SG 552? it doesnt look like a sight.[[User:Simmons 8492|Simmons 8492]]

== PX4 Compact ==

Is it just me, or does the Compact PX4 look HUGE in Jessica Biels' hands? I was looking at the [[Live Free or Die Hard]] page and it looks about the same size when it's in Bruce Willis' hands. Maybe he just has large hands.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 15:10, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

:She's a woman. Of course she has smaller hands than Bruce Willis. I don't know very many women who have big hands. Every time I ever go to ranges, I notice that women there have trouble properly gripping most guns because their hands are so smaller than those of their boyfriends/husbands. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

It looks bigger than the px4. But it might just be that it is Berettas Px4 Storm Sub-Compact pistol. It's not suppost to be released untill 2011 they may have put it in the movie to per-mote the guns release. Here is a link goths gun.
http://www.berettausa.com/products/px4-storm-type-f-sub-compact/

:While it's possible that Beretta may have provided Px4 Sub-Compacts as a promotional deal with the producers, the guns in the movie look to me like Compacts, not Sub-Compacts. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 16:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

::We need to get some continuity because the page text says compact, but the pictures are of the subcompact.

==Face==

Ok a few things Face. Firstly on the bagdad mission face is carrying two side arms, what looks like a walther p99 on the left of his chest and a second (possibly his glock) on his thigh. On a seperaate not did anyone else think it was odd that he only had 4 rounds in his glock at the showdown at the docks? (Which he uses to shoot free the cables). Even if you include the 2 shots at the frankfurt station that makes for 6 total, why would you not take at least a full mag? That said I thought he was very proficent at weapons handling. --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 20:18, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

He's too busy chasing around Jessica Biel to worry about loading his gun.
:I find I can't fault him for that ;) Seriously though are you sure the slide locks back during the fight at the docks? I didn't notice myself, but is it possible the gun had a double feed, causing the slide to partially lock? If not it's probably just a goof, like they took multiple takes of that shot and didn't bother reloading the mag between takes.

It seems to be similar to in Shooter where there were only 4 rounds in the Beretta.

It was a Taurus, sign your posts.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake.
What do you mean, exactly? Like, put my name after it? 'Cause I'm not a member or anything.

Face has his Glock on his thigh holster in Bagdad. Im not 100% sure its a P99 on his vest, cant find a good picture of it and dont own the film yet, but it definately does look like one.

Is in fact a P99 on his vest. You get a good shot of it when they let B.A out of the container.

[[Image:Ateam-M4-prod-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|[[Bradley Cooper]] as Face and [[Liam Neeson]] as Hannibal with M4A1 carbines in a production still. Glock in thigh holster. Possibly a P99 on left side of his vest.]]

Face still carries his Glock on his thigh in addition to the p99 on his vest in baghdad, whoever re did the page needs to re do the glock entry to represent this - Captain Snikt--[[Special:Contributions/86.148.97.195|86.148.97.195]] 01:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this really needs to be changed --[[Special:Contributions/86.150.213.139|86.150.213.139]] 01:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

== Remington 870 ==

Is that a Remington 870? I don't know if it just the angle of the pic but somehow the receiver looks a little different as does the mag tube. As a side note btw they actually do refer to the tank in the C-130 as a "Buford". --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 10:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

=Screencaps=
I have the Blu-Ray (which is already out here in Finland, and in several other European countries) and I did some screencapping. I will finish the page and tidy it up tomorrow. --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 00:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
::'''Since we are a U.S. Based site, DO NOT upload anything until after the December 2010 release date. I am SERIOUS. ''' We have no way of verifying pre-release in ANY OTHER COUNTRY. (for example)(and unfortunately for our Asian members) we don't trust ANY pre release titles from Hong Kong, Singapore, Indonesia or China. With Europe, again we have no way of verifying this. This MAY be released in Finland, But of course I wonder why a major motion picture would be released in FINLAND before the U.S.? Regardless, you cannot upload images prior to the official release date. Since we can only verify the Studio's official DVD release date, IMFDB will stick to that. Sorry. Just stating that it is released in your country, sadly, in the past, has meant nothing, and it offers no legal protection for us if the member is mistaken and the images are indeed from a BOOTLEG of some sort. Thanks for your cooperation. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 00:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

== The Movie will be out on Video Dec.11,2010 ==

So please do not put up any screenshots that aren't from the trailers or clips.

--[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 00:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows

2012-01-05T01:27:57Z

StarSummers: /* Mauser M712 */

I think it's safe to say that these aren't Gewehr 1898s. See below. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 23:35, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:MG98b-AGOS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The magazine that extends out of the rifle.]]
[[Image:MG98c-AGOS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Muzzle looks weird. ]]

Gewehr 1888's? It's got the fat muzzle. And the Austro-Hungarian Army did use a licensed copy. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:German_GEW_88.jpg] --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 23:48, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

Also, the rifle in the trailer has a visible magazine , the 98 does not have one. -G36Ghost.

== Mauser M712 ==

In the trailer between 32-34 seconds an unknown character can be seen loading a mazing into a C-96 pattern pistol, implying the M712. I would include this but am still somewhat unfamiliar with Wiki editing, and more importantly, how to upload a picture. Not to shirk responsibility, but if someone more knowledgeable can do it, thanks. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 21:28, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

: Its most definitly a M712. The character using it describes it as using a 10 round box magazine, and even accurately notes it firing a 7.63 caliber round. He tells Holmes his revolver is a relic, in comparison. Edit: I believe that the useage of a detachable box magazine makes it a M712 right away. I think we should remove the C96 title from the entry on the main page. -MissySummers-

== Man portable machine gun ==

There was a scene where Watson took hold of a weird weapon that looks like nothing I've ever seen before and fits a top shiny banana shaped magazine and was firing it full auto [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:22, 17 December 2011 (CST)

The closest I can come is a Beretta M1918, though I have a feeling that's incorrect.[[User:pastorhack]]

:From how cumbersome and awkward it looked, think it could be a Villar-Perosa OVP M1918, the regular automatic carbine version of the [[Villar-Perosa submachine gun]]. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:58, 18 December 2011 (CST)

::Just noticed that it is actually visible for a few frames in the trailer:
::[[File:SH2 trailer SMG.jpg|thumb|600px|none|]]
::To me this doesn't look like and OVP or a Beretta M1918, so am stumped. Neither of these guns have a magazine well like this. The profile of the barrel looks a bit like the OVP but it is too thick. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that this weapon is mockup up from something else. This gun doesn't seem to have any sights, and that silver bit behind the magazine could be the receiver of a donor weapon which has a conventional layout. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:15, 18 December 2011 (CST)

It's a mocked-up Villar-Perosa--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 18:54, 18 December 2011 (CST)

It really does look like a Villar-Persoa. So do we put this on the page? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:55, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Are we sure it's actually a Villar-Perosa that was used? I saw the movie and the gun resembled a scaled-down version of the 1895 light-weight Maxim that had been adapted for a Villar-Perosa style box feed. I admit I never got a really good look at the entire weapon, but it seemed to have the same kind of pistol grip that you would find on a Maxim. So I don't think we can say the weapon was intended to be a Villar-Perosa, and unless we can get some behind the scenes info on the production we have no idea what was used to construct it.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 13:41, 1 January 2012 (CST)

== Anachronistic ==
this movie actualy takes place in 1891 and not 1882 as this artical states --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 14:03, 18 December 2011 (CST)

The text states 1892. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 14:16, 18 December 2011 (CST)

:I saw this movie today. 1891 has been mentioned twice. [[User:Flexo|Flexo]] 08:09, 30 December 2011 (CST)

== shotgun ==

one of the men on the train looked like the had a shotgun?

Correct. One of the soldiers had a Winchester 1887. Hard to tell if it was 10 gauge or 12. --[[User:Bad Boy|Bad Boy]] 23:36, 24 December 2011 (CST)

I actually thought that was a Martini-Henry, which would make sense for British soldiers of the time to be using. I guess it could be a (rather rare) Greener Prison Shotgun, which would look similar, in which case it would be 14 gauge. [[User:Jimmoy|Jimmoy]] 08:13, 1 January 2012 (CST)

I've seen images of the Greener shotgun and it looks nothing like an 1887. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:51, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Sorry for the imprecise wording, I meant similar to a Martini-Henry. I could very well be wrong about it being that, I didn't get a particularly good look at it and I suppose the 1887 being in the previous film lends some credence to that idea. [[User:Jimmoy|Jimmoy]] 15:17, 1 January 2012 (CST)

== The Forest Scene ==

Is it just me, or was that the best action scene in a movie in the last five years? I can't be the only one who thinks this. It was intense, well shot, and surprisingly innovative in the way it moved the camera and used high-speed film. It was completely awesome. I'd also like to figure out what make of cannon that was that the bad guys (and Watson, earlier) were using. -Cutter9792 (1/1/2012)

No it wasn't. In fact, the slow mo ramping up effect is very dated and a bit annoying after 300 did it. There are plenty of movies that have far superior action scenes [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:33, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows

2012-01-04T02:14:07Z

StarSummers: /* Mauser M712 */

I think it's safe to say that these aren't Gewehr 1898s. See below. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 23:35, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:MG98b-AGOS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The magazine that extends out of the rifle.]]
[[Image:MG98c-AGOS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Muzzle looks weird. ]]

Gewehr 1888's? It's got the fat muzzle. And the Austro-Hungarian Army did use a licensed copy. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:German_GEW_88.jpg] --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 23:48, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

Also, the rifle in the trailer has a visible magazine , the 98 does not have one. -G36Ghost.

== Mauser M712 ==

In the trailer between 32-34 seconds an unknown character can be seen loading a mazing into a C-96 pattern pistol, implying the M712. I would include this but am still somewhat unfamiliar with Wiki editing, and more importantly, how to upload a picture. Not to shirk responsibility, but if someone more knowledgeable can do it, thanks. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 21:28, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

: Its most definitly a M712. The character using it describes it as using a 10 round box magazine, and even accurately notes it firing a 7.63 caliber round. He tells Holmes his revolver is a relic, in comparison. -MissySummers-

== Man portable machine gun ==

There was a scene where Watson took hold of a weird weapon that looks like nothing I've ever seen before and fits a top shiny banana shaped magazine and was firing it full auto [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:22, 17 December 2011 (CST)

The closest I can come is a Beretta M1918, though I have a feeling that's incorrect.[[User:pastorhack]]

:From how cumbersome and awkward it looked, think it could be a Villar-Perosa OVP M1918, the regular automatic carbine version of the [[Villar-Perosa submachine gun]]. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:58, 18 December 2011 (CST)

::Just noticed that it is actually visible for a few frames in the trailer:
::[[File:SH2 trailer SMG.jpg|thumb|600px|none|]]
::To me this doesn't look like and OVP or a Beretta M1918, so am stumped. Neither of these guns have a magazine well like this. The profile of the barrel looks a bit like the OVP but it is too thick. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that this weapon is mockup up from something else. This gun doesn't seem to have any sights, and that silver bit behind the magazine could be the receiver of a donor weapon which has a conventional layout. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:15, 18 December 2011 (CST)

It's a mocked-up Villar-Perosa--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 18:54, 18 December 2011 (CST)

It really does look like a Villar-Persoa. So do we put this on the page? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:55, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Are we sure it's actually a Villar-Perosa that was used? I saw the movie and the gun resembled a scaled-down version of the 1895 light-weight Maxim that had been adapted for a Villar-Perosa style box feed. I admit I never got a really good look at the entire weapon, but it seemed to have the same kind of pistol grip that you would find on a Maxim. So I don't think we can say the weapon was intended to be a Villar-Perosa, and unless we can get some behind the scenes info on the production we have no idea what was used to construct it.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 13:41, 1 January 2012 (CST)

== Anachronistic ==
this movie actualy takes place in 1891 and not 1882 as this artical states --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 14:03, 18 December 2011 (CST)

The text states 1892. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 14:16, 18 December 2011 (CST)

:I saw this movie today. 1891 has been mentioned twice. [[User:Flexo|Flexo]] 08:09, 30 December 2011 (CST)

== shotgun ==

one of the men on the train looked like the had a shotgun?

Correct. One of the soldiers had a Winchester 1887. Hard to tell if it was 10 gauge or 12. --[[User:Bad Boy|Bad Boy]] 23:36, 24 December 2011 (CST)

I actually thought that was a Martini-Henry, which would make sense for British soldiers of the time to be using. I guess it could be a (rather rare) Greener Prison Shotgun, which would look similar, in which case it would be 14 gauge. [[User:Jimmoy|Jimmoy]] 08:13, 1 January 2012 (CST)

I've seen images of the Greener shotgun and it looks nothing like an 1887. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:51, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Sorry for the imprecise wording, I meant similar to a Martini-Henry. I could very well be wrong about it being that, I didn't get a particularly good look at it and I suppose the 1887 being in the previous film lends some credence to that idea. [[User:Jimmoy|Jimmoy]] 15:17, 1 January 2012 (CST)

== The Forest Scene ==

Is it just me, or was that the best action scene in a movie in the last five years? I can't be the only one who thinks this. It was intense, well shot, and surprisingly innovative in the way it moved the camera and used high-speed film. It was completely awesome. I'd also like to figure out what make of cannon that was that the bad guys (and Watson, earlier) were using. -Cutter9792 (1/1/2012)

No it wasn't. In fact, the slow mo ramping up effect is very dated and a bit annoying after 300 did it. There are plenty of movies that have far superior action scenes [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:33, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows

2012-01-04T02:13:34Z

StarSummers: /* Mauser M712 */

I think it's safe to say that these aren't Gewehr 1898s. See below. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 23:35, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:MG98b-AGOS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The magazine that extends out of the rifle.]]
[[Image:MG98c-AGOS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Muzzle looks weird. ]]

Gewehr 1888's? It's got the fat muzzle. And the Austro-Hungarian Army did use a licensed copy. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:German_GEW_88.jpg] --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 23:48, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

Also, the rifle in the trailer has a visible magazine , the 98 does not have one. -G36Ghost.

== Mauser M712 ==

In the trailer between 32-34 seconds an unknown character can be seen loading a mazing into a C-96 pattern pistol, implying the M712. I would include this but am still somewhat unfamiliar with Wiki editing, and more importantly, how to upload a picture. Not to shirk responsibility, but if someone more knowledgeable can do it, thanks. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 21:28, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

: Its most definitly a M712. The character using it describes it as using a 10 round box magazine, and even accurately notes it firing a 7.63 caliber round. He tells Holmes his revolver is a relic, in comparison.

== Man portable machine gun ==

There was a scene where Watson took hold of a weird weapon that looks like nothing I've ever seen before and fits a top shiny banana shaped magazine and was firing it full auto [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:22, 17 December 2011 (CST)

The closest I can come is a Beretta M1918, though I have a feeling that's incorrect.[[User:pastorhack]]

:From how cumbersome and awkward it looked, think it could be a Villar-Perosa OVP M1918, the regular automatic carbine version of the [[Villar-Perosa submachine gun]]. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:58, 18 December 2011 (CST)

::Just noticed that it is actually visible for a few frames in the trailer:
::[[File:SH2 trailer SMG.jpg|thumb|600px|none|]]
::To me this doesn't look like and OVP or a Beretta M1918, so am stumped. Neither of these guns have a magazine well like this. The profile of the barrel looks a bit like the OVP but it is too thick. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that this weapon is mockup up from something else. This gun doesn't seem to have any sights, and that silver bit behind the magazine could be the receiver of a donor weapon which has a conventional layout. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:15, 18 December 2011 (CST)

It's a mocked-up Villar-Perosa--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 18:54, 18 December 2011 (CST)

It really does look like a Villar-Persoa. So do we put this on the page? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:55, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Are we sure it's actually a Villar-Perosa that was used? I saw the movie and the gun resembled a scaled-down version of the 1895 light-weight Maxim that had been adapted for a Villar-Perosa style box feed. I admit I never got a really good look at the entire weapon, but it seemed to have the same kind of pistol grip that you would find on a Maxim. So I don't think we can say the weapon was intended to be a Villar-Perosa, and unless we can get some behind the scenes info on the production we have no idea what was used to construct it.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 13:41, 1 January 2012 (CST)

== Anachronistic ==
this movie actualy takes place in 1891 and not 1882 as this artical states --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 14:03, 18 December 2011 (CST)

The text states 1892. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 14:16, 18 December 2011 (CST)

:I saw this movie today. 1891 has been mentioned twice. [[User:Flexo|Flexo]] 08:09, 30 December 2011 (CST)

== shotgun ==

one of the men on the train looked like the had a shotgun?

Correct. One of the soldiers had a Winchester 1887. Hard to tell if it was 10 gauge or 12. --[[User:Bad Boy|Bad Boy]] 23:36, 24 December 2011 (CST)

I actually thought that was a Martini-Henry, which would make sense for British soldiers of the time to be using. I guess it could be a (rather rare) Greener Prison Shotgun, which would look similar, in which case it would be 14 gauge. [[User:Jimmoy|Jimmoy]] 08:13, 1 January 2012 (CST)

I've seen images of the Greener shotgun and it looks nothing like an 1887. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:51, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Sorry for the imprecise wording, I meant similar to a Martini-Henry. I could very well be wrong about it being that, I didn't get a particularly good look at it and I suppose the 1887 being in the previous film lends some credence to that idea. [[User:Jimmoy|Jimmoy]] 15:17, 1 January 2012 (CST)

== The Forest Scene ==

Is it just me, or was that the best action scene in a movie in the last five years? I can't be the only one who thinks this. It was intense, well shot, and surprisingly innovative in the way it moved the camera and used high-speed film. It was completely awesome. I'd also like to figure out what make of cannon that was that the bad guys (and Watson, earlier) were using. -Cutter9792 (1/1/2012)

No it wasn't. In fact, the slow mo ramping up effect is very dated and a bit annoying after 300 did it. There are plenty of movies that have far superior action scenes [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:33, 1 January 2012 (CST)

Sharpe's Enemy

2012-01-02T20:37:44Z

StarSummers: /* Brown Bess Flintlock Musket */

[[Image:Sharpes_Enemy_poster.jpg|thumb|300px|right|''Sharpe's Enemy'' (1994)]]

''Sharpe's Enemy'' is the fourth episode of the Carlton UK miniseries ''Sharpe'', starring [[Sean Bean]] as Captain Richard Sharpe, the officer of a small [[Baker Rifle|Rifles]] detachment during the Napoleonic Wars. It was filmed on location in the Ukraine and the Crimea. The episode follows Sharpe and his company in their efforts to rescue two women hostages from an "army" of deserters camping along the Portugese border.

'''The following weapons can be seen in the Carlton UK Television miniseries ''Sharpe's Enemy'''

__TOC__ 

=Rifles=
==Baker Rifle==
The most prominently used weapon is the [[Baker Rifle|Baker Flintlock Rifle]], issued to special units of the British Army during the Napoleonic Wars. Richard Sharpe ([[Sean Bean]]) and his "Chosen Men" – Sgt. Patrick Harper ([[Daragh O'Malley]]), Riflemen Cooper (Michael Mears), Harris (Jason Salkey), Hagman (John Tams) and Perkins (Lyndon Davies) all carry Bakers, as does the company of the 60th Rifles led by Captain Frederickson (Philip Whitchurch).

[[Image:BakerRifle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Baker Rifle (1801-1837), Caliber - 0.625 inch (15.9 mm)]][[Image:SharpeEnemy3.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Rifleman Taylor cocks his [[Baker Rifle]].]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy4.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Rifleman Perkins (Lyndon Davies) aims his Baker.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy6.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sharpe ([[Sean Bean]]) fires his Baker.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy7.jpg|thumb|none|500px|The 60th Rifles lie in wait on the other side the door the escaping deserters are so desperately trying to break through.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy8.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sharpe and the Riflemen open fire with their Bakers, while Corporal Kelly (Morgan Jones) fires his [[Brown Bess Flintlock Musket]].]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy15.jpg|thumb|none|500px|The 60th Rifles fire their Bakers at the approaching French.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy16.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Harris (Jason Salkey) picks off an officer in the approaching French column.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy17.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Cooper (Michael Mears) does the same.]]

== Brown Bess Flintlock Musket ==
The standard long arm issued to "redcoat" British soldiers is the [[Brown Bess Flintlock Musket]].

[[Image:India pattern brown bess.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Original "India Pattern" Brown Bess musket made 1805-1840 - .75 caliber]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy18.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A firing squad takes aim at Hakeswill.]]

== Unknown Muskets ==
The advancing French soldiers carry Flintlock muskets of an unknown kind.

[[Image:SharpeEnemy13.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

=Pistols=
Various characters use [[Flintlock Pistol]]s of various kinds, including Col. Sir Augustus Farthingdale (Jeremy Child), Hakeswill ([[Pete Postlethwaite]]), "Marshall" Pot-Au-Feu (Tony Haygarth), and Teresa Moreno (Assumpta Serna).

[[Image:SharpeEnemy20.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sir Augustus Farthingdale (Jeremy Child) fires his pistol (little more than a noisemaker) into the air to get Harper's attention.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy9.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Hakeswill ([[Pete Postlethwaite]]) holds his [[Flintlock Pistol]] to Isabella's ([[Elizabeth Hurley]]) head.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy10.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Teresa (Assumpta Serna) is forced to lower her pistol, and is shot by Hakeswill in return.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy11.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Hakeswill tries to hold Isabella hostage with his (now-empty) pistol.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy12.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Col. Dubreton (Francois Guetary) holds his own pistol on Hakeswill.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy19.jpg|thumb|none|500px|An officer administers the ''coup de grace'' to Hakeswill.]]

=Other=
==Congreve Rockets==
One of the more bizarre weapons featured in the episode is the Rocket artillery invented by Sir William Congreve (1772-1828). The Prince-Regent of England (the future King George IV) was so awed by these weapons that he insisted on sending a troop of them to the Duke of Wellington's Peninsular Army. But since neither Congreve, nor anyone else had any concept of aerodynamics, the rockets had no fins, or other stabilizers attached, and thus were wildly inaccurate.

The rockets were sporadically used in British Army engagements in the following years, including during the War of 1812 against the United States, inspiring the phrase "the rockets' red glare" in "The Star-Spangled Banner."

However, Sharpe uses them to surprising effect when fighting off a French column, since the weapons are more terrifying than conventional artillery, and because a French column is such a large, tightly-packed mass of men that the rockets cannot fail to hit part of it.

[[Image:SharpeEnemy1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Congreve Rockets taking off.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy5.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Captain Frederickson (Philip Whitchurch) empties one of the rocket canisters into a sack, making a set of impromptu grenades.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy14.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Lt. Gilliland (Nicholas Rowe) orders Teresa's partisans to light the fuses to the rockets.]]

[[Category: Television]]
[[Category:War]]
[[Category:British Produced/Filmed]]
[[Category:Mini-Series]]

Talk:The Walking Dead (TV Series)

2012-01-01T16:54:51Z

StarSummers: /* M4 */ new section

==OTHER==
That's Norman Reedus with the crossbow. He plays Daryl Dixon, who was not in the actual comic that I can recall. I like that though, he's a cool actor. I'm also a little bummed that they didn't use the guns drawn in the comics. Rick uses a HK mk.23. For those of you who might think that it's impossible to tell that from the comic the artist wrote HK MK.23 on the barrel. [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

:I read some where that the Walker are attracted to loud noises. that might be why he is carrying a crossbow

It is smart to use a crossbow; because it saves on bullets and in most all undead literature and movies the undead always react and swarm when they hear a gunshot. Very good show, have never read the comic but look forward to.-GoshMr.Peabody

It's pretty amazing. I recommend buying the trade paperbacks. [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

==Whoa==
I loved the comic, when the hell did it get a tv show?

The idea was revealed a while ago. It comes out on Halloween. -SasquatchJim

honestly , its like two hours till the show ,i cant wait. simmons 8492

Well it kept my interest. I'll watch it again next week to see if it can maintain the momentum.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 18:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

honestly it took some time to realy get things going , but now hes in a populated zone with other survivers . and if i was him id start that tank up! simmons 8492

I coulda sworn the 50 on that tank was still loaded with ammo and in the next scene, it had no ammo [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 01:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Just watched it again. The .50 on the tank doesn't appear to be loaded, but there's another one in a sandbag fort that is, in the foreground as he goes by. -IGemini 04:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

iv watched it from the start and i have to say its great simmons 8492

== Crappy dialogue ==

In the trailer, one of the cops told the other to make sure he had a round in the chamber and that his safety is off. First off, the man he was talking to, had a Glock, so no safety. And since he's a trained cop, ready to open fire on a suspect that's hostile, why wouldn't he have a round in the chamber and his gun ready to go? That line just threw me off [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys, just watched it. Its brilliant, easily as good as the comic. The 'crappy dialogue above does jar a little tho. Hes telling him to make sure he had a round in the chamber and that his safety is off as it is implied the officer in question is a bit useless, however after doing a brass check the officer in question then presses down on the slide release (even tho the slide is forward) as if to pretend it is the saftey catch. Morgan has a 5 shot snub revolver (which someone else will have to identify as im not too good with em). Rick pull a 92fs (standing in for an m9) from a dead soldiers shoulder holster at the end of the episode, and i'm fairly sure the SIG is a tutone P228 or 229 not a P239 --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 00:21, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

:Maybe Basset is so damn useless that he hasn't even figured out that Glocks don't come with manual safeties... --[[User:Euromutt|Euromutt]] 07:28, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

The funny thing about the thing with the safety is that you can hear the sound of a safety being click off.--[[User:Mattattack07|Mattattack07]] 04:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Remember that the dialogue was written long before it was decided the cop would be holding a Glock(unless the writer is Michael Mann). So maybe the round in the chamber thing may have been unwarranted, but maybe he was a rookie, he did seem sort of skittish. Regardless, it's unfair to call ''that'' crappy dialogue. I think you're letting your knowledge of guns get in the way of enjoying good stories.--[[User:Mr-Jigsaw|Mr-Jigsaw]] 04:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Dont know if its worth noting, but the cop he tells that too, is actually, the first zombie he ends up shooting, after leaving the police station. Rick commented he was careless and dumb, so reminding him, makes sense.

And, of course, Rick committed a cardinal sin; he referred to a magazine as a clip :P -SasquatchJim

I'm not surprised, Sasqatch. The cop I talked to called his Glock 17 a "Glock 9". I'm sure he would have said clip to. Not all cops are into guns. Haha

==SIG P239==

[[Image:WalkingDead-SIGP239.jpg‎|thumb|none|500px|A chase suspect emerges from the wrecked car firing a two-tone SIG P239 at police.]]

This doesn't look like a P239 to me; more like a P226 or P228. It's too big, and it has nickel controls (which the two-tone P239s don't have). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
:P228 because of the slide length. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 01:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
::Remember, on low resolution screencaps like the ones I had to use, feel free to correct the Gun IDs. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]]
::: Watching the scene I agree that it is somewhat larger. Sounds fine to me - I'll change it. The first episode was pretty good. I'm adding a Beretta 92FS (M9) entry - Grimes indeed takes one off a 'dead' soldier inside the Abrams tank he gets into, as noted by the above section. Also, I never did get a good glance at the snub revolver, though I'm fairly certain it's a S&W. They're replaying the show so I'll keep an eye for it, and some of the other guns. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 02:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

==Spoiler Comment and Morgan's Revolver==
Its nice to see the page updated but arn't some of the descriptions (mainly the colt python) a bit spoilerific for anyone who hasn't watched it yet? --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 04:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

:: Whoa, yes they are, I sure as hell didn't add those. :b I'll reword them somewhat. Also! The revolver Morgan uses is a Snub S&W Model 66, I can almost guarantee it. Bah, wish I could get screencaps. Still, I'll add that as well. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 04:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure its a 66? I remember it having a 5 round cylinder --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 04:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I grabbed this off my skyplus box so sorry bout the quality [IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/2i700fm.jpg[/IMG] Any use, its definatly a 5 shot--[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 04:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

: I could have ''sworn'' it was a S&W. But it's definitely not a Model 66, since there's no rear adj. sights, nor of course a 6-shot cylinder. But Smith snubbie J-frames (5-shot) all have flat 'bull-nose' ejector rod shrouds, not curved. Bah, now I'm kinda stumped. My best guess at this point would probably be a [[Ruger SP101]]. Convert that image there to JPG and upload it on the site. It's not great, but it's better than nothing. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 05:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

::Looks like it could also be either the [[Taurus Model 617]] or possibly a stainless steel [[Taurus Model 85]]. Biu it is difficult.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 12:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

From the barrel it looks like an early Taurus Model 85 in stainless or nickel plated. It was a five shot cylinder definitely.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 17:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

: After posting I did consider it being a Taurus, many of them are awfully S&W looking to begin with. I doubt it's a 617 but it easily could be an 85. Hell, could be anything for all I know at this point. I guess it'll just be another 'unidentified' until we get more/better screencaps. I'll modify the S&W 66 entry I posted and just call it un-ID'd snub revolver, noting the 5-shot capacity and stating the possible choices. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I am almost certain it is actually a Ruger SP101, two inch model. No other snubbie, as far as I know, has the upper rear of the frame shaped into a rear sight notch like the SP101, as both of those Taurus models just lack rear sights - you can check the Taurus website as both models lack a "rear sight" category under specifications. Also, if you check out the behind the scenes vid [http://www.amctv.com/originals/The-Walking-Dead/?bclid=625294007001&bcpid=111717822001&bctid=628200502001 here], there is a pretty decent side shot of the revolver. The general shape is very close to a SP101, and even from the front, the lines on Morgan's triggerguard and barrel are cut much closer semi-melted look on the SP than the very sharp ones on a Taurus oR S&W.

All said, the easiest way to tell would be if they showed the damned cylinder release at some point. --[[User:John 234|John 234]] 07:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC) (Corrected typo --[[User:John 234|John 234]] 02:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC))

: It's not an SP101. The recoil shield shown is a simple traditional shape, not the bulkier contours Rugers have in that part of the frame. Also, the ejector rod shroud is cut back more sharply from the muzzle, and the revolver in the show seems to lack the small hole on the front of the frame for the front crane lock. [[User:Rule .303|Rule .303]] 14:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Judging by the screens uploaded I'd say definately not a 617, 617 is a 7-shot, also can't see a ported barrel. Still think it's a Taurus though. [[User:ZombieKiller|ZombieKiller]] 09:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

If you watch the Making of the Walking dead Season 1 it shows the side of the revolver.. Looks exactly like the Ruger SP101 from Breaking Bad. I'm guessing its the same prop. (Just like I think the RV is. )

: It's definately not a Ruger SP101. As to the comment of the SP101 being unique with regards to the rear notch site. Nope. All snubbies have that. I have both the Taurus 85 (old shape) and the Taurus 85 Stainless. Looks much more like that due to the unique underlug on the revolver. Also look at the SP101's front. http://www.dayattherange.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sp101target8.jpg Definately not what we are seeing in these screen captures. [[User:Potentpoefie|Potentpoefie]] 07:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

== What kind of tank was that? ==

Its oviously a stand-in for an M-1 but I'm not sure what it is. I'm thinking possibly a Chieftain, but I'm not sure. Also, note that a real M-1 woulnd't have worked for the scene since it lacks the floor escape hatch.

-AC.

:I'm also reasonably certain the 82nd Airborne Division doesn't have tanks in their TO&E, yet the (un)dead soldier in the tank had an 82nd patch on his left shoulder. --[[User:Euromutt|Euromutt]] 07:32, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

Well i would imagine that in the chaos of the zombie apocalypse lots of soldiers ended up with other units doin jobs they aren't really trained for.

Actually smaller units are frequently attached (I believe the Brits call it seconded) to other units for mission purposes. Some armor battalions spent the whole campaign in France (WW II, 1944-1945) being attached to various infantry units - to include the airborne. After all the elements of the 9th and 10th armor divisions that were in Bastogne during the siege fell under the 101st Airborne for the duration of that battle. Funny how the airborne mafia always seems to forget about all the ''other'' troops that fought in that battle. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 13:17, 23 August 2011 (CDT)

At this point I'm not sure, but I do suspect it's the same tank that shows up in ''[[Zombieland]]''. Both shows are filmed in Georgia and the voice-over commentary on ''Zombieland'' states that the tank is owned by a private collector.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 16:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Definately a Chieftain.

: I concur, Chieftains are often used (mocked-up) as stand-ins for Abrams tanks. I also noticed the bottom escape hatch, which as far as I can recall, indeed isn't on an actual Abrams. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 23:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

''Other comments posted on main page-''

(Perhaps it is just me, but the Abrams featured in this appears to be a mocked up British Chieftain Tank, I didn't get a good look at the tank but it didn't seem to be a genuine Abrams, although it could simply be an older pattern M1 without the TUSK upgrade, reactive armor and the more apparent loaders hatch. Yet that would not explain the escape hatch.- Doc345)

Older M1s didn't look that diffrent, from the later ones, aside from the most recent upgardes.

Also, the angle of the frontal turret armor is wrong to be an M1.

I think this may be the same tank which appeared in, among other series, Jericho. The vehicle, if I remember correctly, is built on an old Centurion chasis to resemble an Abrams with some obvious differences. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 00:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

On a random note, where was a Striker seen in the episode? It says on the page that there was one with a fifty cal on it, but aside from the tank, the only other military vehicles I saw where some HMMWVs, what looked like a deuce, and a half, and some abandone Hueys.

Intrestingly, in the trailor, the one Rick first sees after leaving the hospital lacked a rotor blade making me think it was edited in post-production. Also, the one off to Ricks left appears to still be lacking one.

-AC

at the begging seen when the main cerictor walkes out of the hospital he sees a ebandoned military equpent you can see a Stryker IFV --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 21:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
heres a picture
[[Image:The walking dead.png]]

I can say without a doubt that the 'M1' ''is'' a Chieftain, not a Centurion. The long sloping frontal 'nose' armour, the front idler wheel and the lockers/storage bins are features of the Chieftain, not the Centurion. Not too sure about the 'escape hatch' though. I wonder if this is the same 'M1' that appears in the 2010 remake of Red Dawn? It looks the same to me. [[User:Spanner|Spanner]]

*Naw, that one they've actually made some modifications to like building up the hull and turret to be more Abrams-like and putting an M1-style bulge over the cylindrical fume extractor. This is just a Chieftain with a fake M2 awkwardly perched on top of the hatch weapon mounting. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:07, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

== Things I noticed ==

Did anybody else notice that when Morgan cocked the hammer back on his gun and threatened to shoot Grimes if he didn't talk, the cylinder didn't advance to the next chamber like it should?

And what about Grimes' personal arsenal in his backpack? Is it safe to assume that rubber/resin mockups? He was getting bounced pretty hard by that horse and the guns kept bumping him in the back. That's at least 40 pounds of gear to be carrying around.

More than safe to assume that. Most of them even appeared to have solid barrels. Probably rubber.--[[Special:Contributions/99.48.50.70|99.48.50.70]] 04:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

The cylinder did rotate, I remembered that happening when I watched the scene. As far as the bag -o- guns, I have no idea. If they were all rubber, they were modeled after some hard to find shotgun configurations and looked very real. --[[User:Yournamehere|Yournamehere]] 20:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

According to Grimes in episode 3 his duffle bag was holding six shotguns, two "high powered" rifles, a dozen handguns, and 700 rounds of assorted ammo. That's easily 80-90 pounds of gear. There's no way Grimes could be carrying that around in one hand with a gas can in the other. Or getting bucked and having the bag sag to the side and the stuff not come falling out.

Did anybody else notice that Dale seemed to switch between carrying a rifle with a sling, to carrying one without a sling between scenes?

== I rewatched the first episode. ==

Two of the Sheriffs deputys from the neighboring county had shotguns. One looked like and 870 Remington. The other looked like a Mossberg.

The gun used to shoot Rick, I'm pretty sure was either 1911, or a Glock. It seemed to have an extended slide.

-AC

:: I noticed the shotguns too but it was hard to get a decent look at them, mainly the second one (Mossberg I guess). I will concur at least one of the other shotguns was indeed a standard 870. No idea what the pistol is/was. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Almost positive the other two deputys, from the neighboring county had Glocks, like the other deputys from Ricks department.

You can see one of the shotguns fairly well, after Rick gots shot, one of the two deputys joins Shane in trying to help Rick. Like Shane, he drops his gun, and it can be seen fairly well.

Looking at the pick on here, I'm more positive than ever that the last gunmans weapon was a 1911.
Good eye on my part, since it was litreally visible for like less than a second.-AC.

==Andrea's gun==
I believe Andrea is packing a Smith and Wesson 3913 Ladysmith [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

:I concur. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]

Here's a good picture. http://blogs.amctv.com/photo-galleries/the-walking-dead-season-1-episode-photos/episode-2-rick-andrea.php
[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

:: I also agree about it being a 3913 Ladysmith. We also saw a M67 'baseball' grenade in this latest episode (actually the training version, you could still spot some blue paint on it). [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 05:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

== What kind of rifle did Meryl have? ==

Looked like possibly a Model 70, but I'm bad at identifing bolt actions.
-AC

Seriously, does anyone know what kind of rifle he had?-AC

Compare the bolt heads (or whatever the end of the bolt closest to the butt is called); the Remington 700 seems to have more of a protruding portion, while the Mod. 70 is tucked in and more square-like.

At least, that's what it seems like. There used to be a generic page for comparing Bolt-Action Rifles, like the shotguns have now. Where did that page go?

Here it is.

[[Bolt Action Rifles - Most common Sporting Models|Scoped Bolt Action Hunting Rifles]]. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

==Shane's Pistol==
Can anyone identify the pistol Shane is carrying? It looks like either a Glock or possibly a Sig Pro. [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Probally a Gock. There very common cop guns, in both hollywood, and real life. Also, severael of the cops, at opening shootout had them, so evedently the prophouse they went to had some.
-AC

Definitely a Glock. Although it's only shown briefly, it looks like a 17. He carries it in a thumb break holster. [[User:Mmarlon brando|Mmarlon brando]]

Picture of him holding it: http://blogs.amctv.com/photo-galleries/the-walking-dead-season-1-episode-photos/episode-4-carl-lori-shane-morales.php

After looking at the screenshot on the main page, can anyone identify the holster?

In the finale you can see its a Glock 19. Not 17. (Also the firing M4s looked like they had blank firing adapters as flashiders)

==Merle==

It's Merle not Maryl or Marle

==Guts==
I really like how Rick actually checks the dead soldier's vest for more ammo instead of just taking the weapon like every other film. I also like how when his Beretta runs dry he doesn't toss it away like some generic action hero but he keeps it and stows it in Glenn's backpack. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 02:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that was good stuff. Have yet to see the Beretta again though. [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

:Did you also notice that his [[Colt Python]] is still in his hoslter even though he ran out of ammo for it? I liked that touch as well. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 14:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

You never know what you might find ammo for at a latter date.-AC
::Which he does in the third episode. Anyway Python's are too expensive to be tossing away on a whim. Even after the Zombie Apocalypse has happened. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 17:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

If I recall right they've been outta production since the late 90s.

::The last Python was manufactured approximately six years ago. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 18:30, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Still outta production than. If I recall right, for a while it was outta generael production, but could be special ordered.

Yes the last five or six years it had to be ordered through the custom shop.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The Python, and The Anaconda, where the best revolvers Colt made since the SAA imho-AC

IMO, the Official Police and Detective Special should be included as well. -SasquatchJim

Too bad that still fully loaded .50 next to the tank is too heavy to take back [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 23:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

If he can walk and ride a horse with a 90lb bag on his back like its nothing, he could carry a M2.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

And he brought buddies with him to GET that bag he left behind. They can lug around an M2 with ammo. Sure it doesn't look like there's any extra, but it's an M2 with AMMO! [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 03:11, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

But honestly, what would be the purpose, in this story? I mean, they're already getting guns and ammo, and it's not like you need a lot of penetration to kill a zombie, so they don't really need a .50 caliber machinegun. All it would really do was kill a couple of zombies while making a shitload of noise, attracting every zombie in a mile radius. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 05:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

: I bet one would've come in handy on top of the camper during the attack on the camp. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 04:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
::Possibly (I posted that before I saw that episode, sorry.), though I doubt any of them have any training or even any practice with military grade machine guns, and so I'm betting that during the chaos of the attack, they would have killed more of their own people. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 02:43, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
::: Woulda been kinda hard to use that thing in the dark, too, since the only source of light is that campfire. Scoring headshots on zombies without friendly fire in a situation like that? No way even TV-land can pull THAT one off.

Talking about scavenging guns, even when they were rushing back to the vehicles in front of the CDC wouldn't it have been a good idea to at least grab a couple of the discarded weapons lying around out front?

==Vatos==
Ok, tonight I think I've seen a S&W model 10, a Colt Detective Special, and possibly a S&W mosel 28 in the hands of the mexican gangsters and it looks like T-Dog was using a BAR. The bag had some Sigs and Glocks and Daryl had a Remington 870 and I think that Rick is using a Mossberg 590 not a 500. [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Just so everyone knows, I didn't edit the page tonight, I just wrote on here. [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Daryl took at least one Sig from the bag. T-Dog used a Mossberg later, but I think his scoped rifle was a BAR. The shotty Glenn ended up with, looked the same as Daryl's. Also, Shane drew his pistol at one point, but it was hard to see.-AC
==Daryl's Crossbow==
Daryl Dixon's crossbow is a Horton Scout HD 125: http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2817217&cid=CSE:GoogleProductSearch. In the fourth episode "Vatos", when Daryl points it a T-dog on the roof you can see the faded Horton logo on the front. Scout 125 can be seen above the trigger after the camera angle changes. [[User:Mmarlon brando|Mmarlon brando]]

::Picture added and changes made. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 19:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

== Was that an XD? ==

The handgun, that Daryl takes from the bag of guns. At first I thought it was a SIG, but after rewatching it, I think it may have been a Springfield Army XD.
-AC

Nope, definitely a bi-tone Sig of some kind.

Yeah, the XDs don't have all that stuff on the side of the gun and the slide is actually more Glock like than the more rounder Sig slides [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:36, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:Walkingdeadsig.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rick Grimes ([[Andrew Lincoln]]) inspects a bi-tone Sig Sauer handgun from his bag of guns.]]

- ZeoRanger5 17:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

that looks like a SIG-sauer P226 or P228. simmons 8492

I agree with simmons 8492, i'd say p228 myself.

How did you think that was an XD?--[[User:Jackie.45Cal|Jackie.45Cal]] 14:48, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Not sure. When I stuck it in his waistband, it looked like a combination between a Sig, and a Glock. As far as handguns go, I'd say the XD is closest to that description. Course I was rather sleep deprived at the time.-AC

i also think that in episode 5 shane pulls what looks to be a sig when the sister is coming back to life . im not sure because i know shane has a glock but this isnt in the holster , its carried mexican style and is only seen for seconds. can some one verify ?[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Rick also pulls a gun carried similarily in that scene. Ricks looked like a Glock.

but shanes looks more like a sig or something .[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Some ones gotta move that pic into the 228 spot.[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

:It's not a P228. The screencap doesn't show it well, but I checked the episode again, and it's possible to see that it has the squared trigger guard of the P226, rather than rounded, as on a P228. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 23:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

==Faking recoil==

Its a littlle overdone but nice to see it (a HP in 9mm doesnt kick as much as shown, but its better than most shows, and handling is pretty good or tv.

may be because he hasent realy fired a 9mm in a while he wasnt use to it or because hes used to the revovler

That makes no sense, .357 Magnum (I'm guessing thats what is loaded) has alot more kick, if he can handle a .357 than he could easily handle a 9mm.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:02, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

and im sure that a python has more kick than that highpower . and being that he killed a hand full of zombies with that in the first episode it wont matter .-[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

:Just a FYI, its Hi Power, not High Power.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

/AUA

Since most people don't know the distinction between a Hi-Power and a Colt M1911, and the show is known to have certain..flaws when it comes to reality, they could have just been assuming that it was a .45, and Hollywood logic states that if it's larger than 9mm, it makes your wrist fly up and sends bad guys flying.

Or it was just because they wanted Rick to seem cool with a stainless steel firearm (like his Colt Python, which he points at other survivors so often, it could be a drinking game).

But being seriously, this is the same show where Glocks have external, slide-mounted safeties in the US and headshots can be made off-hand with a sidearm at 50 meters while running.

AUA/

:I haven't been able to watch the series only the first episode (no cable) but... The Python is a heavy revolver and could be loaded with .38 Specials. Also with the Hi-Power being a semi-auto and able to shoot more rapidly. Would have more perceived recoil. Seeing guys on YouTube handle .45s with very little recoil, it's shotguns and full auto rifles where movies get recoil wrong. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 02:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

==DShK heavy machine gun?==

I believe there was an abandoned DShK heavy machine gun flanked by sandbags when they headed towards the CDC building by the looks of the muzzle. (This was the best episode so far, I think.) - Angel_956

Most likely a mocked up M2 but I definatly saw that distinct muzzle brake.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 18:20, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I added a cap but you cannot really tell one way or another if it is a mock up or not. Either way...it makes no sense for it to be there in the first place!!! --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 23:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was thinking. Why would an outdated Soviet Union machine gun even be in the show, but it might be cleared up in the next episode. I clearly remember the guy in the CDC building saying something about some French soilders, I think. If so it might of meant that there was an international response to the zombie outbreak, trying to control it, explaining the DShK. [[User:Angel_956|Angel_956]]

:Now your just over-analyzing, it's in all likeliness what they used because it's what was available to use when they were shooting the scene. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 05:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

:Maybe somebody "requisitioned" (read: looted) it from the National Infantry Museum or Fort Benning; both are in or around Columbus, GA, which isn't exactly close to Atlanta, but it's the closest place I can think of where you might plausibly find a DShK. When you need more HMGs, you grab what's available. --[[User:Euromutt|Euromutt]] 20:18, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

Weird though, since they obviously had M2s available for filming.-AC

:Not necessarily. Armorers can change during filming and weapons may not be available even though they were previously. Also remember that only the first episode had the M2 so the armorer could have changed since then. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 22:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

::Actually, those M2HBs are still there in episodes 2 ("Guts," when Grimes escapes from the tank) and 4 ("Vatos," when Glenn goes to retrieve the Bag O' Guns) and they pass at least two M2HBs on the way to the CDC's front door after they pass the DShK. They weren't just there for the pilot. --[[User:Euromutt|Euromutt]] 09:18, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

My thought was militia that made a last stand with the army to protect the people gathering at the CDC (notice the weapon is surrounded by bodies in civilian clothes), the DShK having been purchased by one of the members (legitimately or otherwise) and subsequently put to use following the outbreak. - Wolfblade670

Maybe the Russians dropped in tom VDV to help protect the CDC. -Jakezergling

:I, umm, highly doubt that... - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 03:30, 7 September 2011 (CDT)

== Daryl's knife ==

In the third episode, when Daryl is told about his brother, he attacks Rick with some sort of hunting or combat knife. He's later seen with it in a sheath on his left thigh, and you get a fairly close (But very brief) look at it when they're walking through the building at the beginning of the forth episode. Anyone have any clue what it is? I mean, from the brief glimpse I got of it in the forth episode, it looked like it was possibly a TOPS Steel Eagle 107C, the same kind of knife that the character Royce had sheathed in Predators, but I'm not sure. Can anyone confirm, or give an alternative? [[User:Acora|Acora]] 07:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

It's a Busse Combat Team Gemini with a satin finish. Gerber is now supplying knives to the show as well, as seen in the season 2 premiere when Carl finds a full roll in and abandon vehicle. The list of models is on their FB page. [[User:Mmarlon brando|Mmarlon brando]]

== What kind of gun did he give Morales? ==

He said it was a .357, but I have no idea what it was.-AC

/AUA

He held it in his hand for a profile shot; maybe you should try screencapping it at that point and going from there. There should be an ID for it though, unlike Morgan's snubnose.

AUA/

I lack the equipment needed to screencap.-AC

/AUA

Use IrfanView (freeware) or the PrtScn button on your computer (press it on the frame you want to capture, and then paste it into Paint to crop it).

AUA/

I think it's a Smith and Wesson 586 [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

== Rick's second shotgun.==

After Rick gives the 590 (it wasn't a 500, someone should change that) to Guillermo, he uses one with an 18 inch barrel, a blued type finish and wood furniture. I think some people commented on it being a Mossberg, but it has a rounded bolt like a Remington 870. However, it's not an 870 since the trigger guard isn't round enough, the magazine tube is longer than the standard 4 shot tube, and it doesn't have an extension attached, and the wood furniture has a single rib on the side for gripping. After doing some research, my best guess is that it's an earlier H&R Pardner Pump, possibly in some sort of police configuration. I know it's neither a Mossberg or a Remington, though.

It's indeed an H&R Pardner Pump. The humpback receiver is unmistakable. [Ballistics_Expert2]

/AUA

I'd PrtScn/screencap the shotgun in question before making any comparisons. We still haven't definitively IDed Dale's bolt-action, so maybe you should get one of that as well.

AUA/

We still have Merles bolt-action as well.
-AC

This cap from the page will suffice:

[[Image:WD870ep05.jpg‎|thumb|none|500px|Rick with his Remigton, when he and Shane patrol the woods (Episode 5).]]

And a link to a Pardner Pump configured similarly:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj131/TRguy/Guns/NEFPardnerPumpYouth8-12-10.jpg

A few things distinguishing the shotgun in the picture as a Pardner Pump as opposed to an 870, 500 series, or whatever:

-Some type of thin rib on the top of the barrel.
-The foregrip has the distinctive groove in it as seen on the Pardner Pump.
-The agnle that the receiver curves at the butt end is a sharper angle rather than a bend type (you can tell by the shadow).
-The magazine tube is longer than a 4 shot, but it's not screwed on like other models, nor does the endcap and barrel link resemble that of other models.

Some other things that you can't notice in the picture, like the flatter trigger guard or a good shot of the angled receiver, are seen in the series very easily, namely in Episode 5 during Rick and Shane's patrol, when this cap takes place, and one instance in Episode 6 where the doctor is drawing blood and the gun is sitting behind Rick as he waits. This good enough? --[[User:Yournamehere|Yournamehere]] 10:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

::I think you're right, it's not a Remington, Mossberg, or a Winchester. It looks like a Pardner, more like the Pardner pump compact, due to the shorter barrell. --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 23:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

-Rick's first shotgun was a 500 with the extended tube. It didn't have the bayonet lug, just check some of the promo pics on imbd.com - [[User:MarkXIX|MarkXIX]]

Ah, so it is, I could have sworn I saw the 590s tube cap on it. I can notice a buncha stuff on an H&R, but I get that wrong, lol. --[[User:Yournamehere|Yournamehere]] 17:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Rick's shotgun, from the end of Vatos and on, was a Pardner Pump, but I don't think it was a 20 gauge. Sometimes, hunting model guns can have the vent-rib barrel cut down, to where it is a riot shotgun. I see that as being more plausible. --[[User:1897Reloaded|1897Reloaded]] 11:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

==Think its funny==

Rick misses several close range shots (so do long gun toting officers) in the beginning against chase suspects, then later in series hes nailing headshots left and right....

Noticed that too, although zombies don't shoot back. They just charge straight ahead.

/AUA

It's a screenplay-direction thing. The show is already a bit overdramatized in general, so little things like the 'clip' and 'safety' dialogue or the headshot ratio aren't really all that important to the screenwriters, at least not compared with inserting dramatic bits into it.

AUA/

When the police were shooting the chase suspects, their targets were live people. An accurate marksman or not, if you're not used to firing live rounds at live humans your subconscious may not want you to hit that kill shot. Zombies are different.

also he has had weeks of shooting live targets ie the zombies so he as probaly leared to shot them really well --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 20:21, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

/AUA

Unless you're superhuman, you can't learn how to make a shot that is off-hand, behind you, at a 1.5 x 1 ft target at 50 meters, while RUNNING, in a few weeks. Few people would be able to make that shot, period. The gate-zombie shots were just...unfeasible.

AUA/

*Well it is a show about the dead walking around and eating the flesh of the living. I'm willing to overlook the amazing skill that Rick displays with headshots.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 17:28, 20 June 2011 (CDT)

==Question about Shane's shotgun technique==
Just a question for those who may know, is it considered proper technique to hold the gun that high on the shoulder, with his cheek resting on the receiver? I figuered it was an adjustmant made due to the M4-style stock, as Rick and other survivors wielding unmodified weapons don't do this.

: I noticed that too, I figured it was just the actor's preference (possibly due to inexperience) but I guess it could be because of the M4 stock. I dunno. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 01:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

:It's standard practice in the US military. They teach you to ride the stock high so that your sights are level with your eyes. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 13:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Thats with the M16/M4, not a shotgun.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

:the stock on the shotgun is a Knoxx Industries SpecOps NRS Shotgun Stock

::My dad has one on his 870.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 22:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

-i noticed that . i dont think that stock has a single thing to do with it . it probably prefrances [[user:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

==Series Finale==

I noticed a nickel finished pistol tucked into Daryl's waistband mexican style early on in the episode, looked like a SIG.
I'm thinking that Daryl's pistol was probably the same Hi-Power Rick took off merle in episode 2.

Does any one else think the grenade description is a bit of a spoiler as it is a deus ex machina. I suggest only saying it is used in episode 6 and not how. I know this has absoloutely nothing to do with firearms but i loved the ax decapitation amidst the headshots at the end --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 02:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

:The grenade wasn't a deus ex machina, but a textbook example of Chekhov's gun. He found it in the first episode even. It would have been a deus ex machina if they found it there.(I expected him to actually bring it out against the guys in the city in episode 3, myself)--[[User:Mr-Jigsaw|Mr-Jigsaw]] 08:28, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi, New guy here. When Jenner allows the the others to enter the facility at the start of the episode, he's seen holding an M4, and he mentions that "There're a lot of these lying around. I familiarized myself." And yet, none of the others ever even think of finding a couple of the guns for themselves. Shame, considering a couple of those and a few mags would've come in pretty handy outside (especially if there was a suppressor to be found) Anyone else bugged by this?

They've been sitting outside for like a month. The M4 is a fine, gun, but you need to clean it regularly.-AC

:Only if your in the desert sand, sitting around like that outside would be fine but not how I would store my guns.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I was definitely bugged by this fact. Supposedly a lot of M4s and 30 round magazines lying around, and Jenner's the only guy who has one. But then again the supply of ammo might've been low, considering everything that'd happened. [[Ballistics_Expert2]]

first off all there are no M4A1`s seen inside all out side wicth iswere he probily got it second they were only out side for a few momints ehter runing away from the bulding or trying to get in before they are over welbed with zombies tird as he said ammo is preety rare as you can see when they are out side there are hunderdes of dead zombies witch had to be killed by something --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 19:51, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== To Do List. ==

1. Shotguns used by deputies in opening shootout.
2. Morgans revolver.
3. Merles rifle.
4. The guns, Rick, and Shane pull after Amy turns.
5. The gun given to Morales.
6. Daryls handgun.
7. Whether Shanes Glock is a 17 or 19.
8. Whether Ricks first shotty was a 500 or a 590.
9. Ricks second shotty.

I miss anything?-AC

==Short Season Huh?==

At least season 2 will be twice as long, whenever they get around to making it.....

At least there will be a seaon two, I thought this was a miniseries at first and was very dissapointed that it was over so soon. [[Special:Contributions/67.187.27.89|67.187.27.89]] 01:45, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

It's definately already in production. Normally when a series gets picked up production on the second season gets rolling ASAP. This became a pretty popular show, show I'm guessing AMC got the ball rolling right away when they realized they had demand for the show. Anyone here read the graphic novel series? I want to try and get into it but want to know if it's worth the time and money--[[User:Burgershot621|Burgershot621]] 05:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

They really are worth it. I buy the trade paperbacks, they are like $12.00 a book. There are 13 of them up to now. [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Personaaly i prefer the graphic novels. Dont get me wrong i love the series, but the comics are much more grim and dark, in the series everyone seems to be more willing to get along and its more zombie orientated, the comics are much more grim, its about the characters and in the comic no characters are safe, even mainstay ones. The tv series feels slightly more commercialised and main characters have outlived their comic book life already. I do love the tv version, and darly dixion is the best non comic character creation to be added to the series, I just hope Carl gets a gun next series, that said and cant belive i have to wait till october to see series 2.- Captain Snikt [[Special:Contributions/109.157.4.163|109.157.4.163]] 23:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

== Popular Cop Guns ==
An answer above said that the Glock was "a very common cop gun, in both hollywood, and real life." This is true, but I was wondering if their were any other cop guns in hollywood and in real life that are as popular as the Glock.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 21:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The Beretta 92 is the only one that comes to mind for me. -SasquatchJim.

:There aren't too many police depts issuing the Beretta 92F anymore, even though Hollywood still shows them being carried by cops. Anyway, Glock holds just under 2/3rds of the U.S. law enforcement market, SIG-Sauer holds about 1/3rd, and a number of other makes (S&W, H&K, Beretta, etc.) are constantly fighting each other for what's left. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 16:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

SIG-Sauer P226, S&W M19/66, AR-15, and many more... --[[User:nkingman|nkingman]]

Ah, that's right.
Some older ones include the S&W Model 10, S&W Model 28, Colt Trooper, and a 12 gauge pump shotgun (namely a Remington 870.)
Another new one is the S&W M&P -SasquatchJim

There was once a time when the S&W Model 15/67, the S&W Model 13/65. Colt Official Police, Ruger Six Series revolvers, the S&W Model 19/66 and the Colt Lawman/Trooper Mk III were also very popular Cop revolvers.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 14:40, 28 March 2011 (CDT)

== Flash suppressor on M4A1 ==

Did anyone else notice the flash suppressor on the M4A1 held by the soldier that gets grabbed is different than normal?
:I thought it was a nongun.--[[Special:Contributions/129.89.179.105|129.89.179.105]] 01:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)(thePotShot)
::Just for reference,
::[[Image:M4A1nongun.jpg|thumb|500px|none|M4A1 Non Gun]]--[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:58, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

:::Yeah, it's a Non Gun M4. Look at the range at which he's shooting at his comrades. Blanks are dangerous if an actor is shooting at other actors who are that close, so they probably had to use the Non Gun instead. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:57, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

:Actually, the Aimpoint M68 CCO (in this case I believe it is a Comp M2 or ML2) can be used with the foreward lens cover closed. Used in this method, it forms an occuladed eye-sight, which were one of the first types of weapons optics employed. Using an occuladed eye-sight is very similar in principle to the BAC method employed in some Trijicon ACOGs, both eyes are left open and due to the way the brain processes images from the eye, what the left (or right eye sees) downrange has the red dot from the other eye (which is looking down the sight) superimposed on it. This is useful as there are rumors that the red dot (particularly in the Aimpoint family) can in fact be detected from in front of the weapon due to the intensity of the light, espiecially in night battle conditions. So the sceintist might really know what he is doing, but it is just as likely it was a mistake by the prop department.[[User:SAWGunner89|SAWGunner89]] 22:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

== I liked Rick's reaction when he pulled the pin on the grenade in the last episode ==

He was thinkin "ohshitohshitohshitohshit" and then hauled ass outta there haha. I liked that little detail, along with him getting knocked off his feet as he tried to get as far away from it as possible, instead of the clichè "walk slowly towards the camera as a bomb goes off behind you with a bad-ass grimace on your face". This show had a lot of nice little details like that. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 03:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I liked that too. i hate when like the everyday joe can slowly walk away from a huge explosion,[[User:Simmons 8492|Simmons 8492]]

I like the way that he pulled the pin and had the "Oh my GOD!" moment when he suddenly realised that he needed to run fast. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 07:49, 2 July 2011 (CDT)

== Season 2 ==

Anyone seen the trailer yet for the second seaons? It's been out for a few weeks now. I jus--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 19:57, 11 August 2011 (CDT)t thought it was interesting that it hasn't been mentioned here.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 19:57, 11 August 2011 (CDT)

I don't have the equipment for getting screencaps from TV, but the revolver Daryl took from the camper who committed suicide looks like either a Colt Cobra or Detective Special. The structure doesn't look right for being a S&W Model 10 or Model 36/37. And the slender grip profile and lack of an ejector rod housing eliminates the possibility of it being a Taurus.
--[[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]

I was rewatching the season 2 premier episode and I noticed something that irked me a bit concerning the scene at the tent where Daryl found the Colt revolver. This is a series known for a great deal of firearms safety and consideration. But here we have an example of typical Hollywood gun handling. Nobody checked to see how many live rounds were in it, they just assumed it was still loaded and ready to be used. For all we know Daryl handed Laurie an empty weapon for taking on the trail back to the RV.
--[[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]

==Gerber Bag of Knives==

Carl ([[Chandler Riggs]]) found this bag in the first episode of the second season which contained six different gerber tool knives and machetes.

[[Image:Gerber-Zombie-Apocolypse-Knives.jpg|thumb|none|500px| So long as you use a knife, there's still a little love left.]]

In the Season 2 props video on the AMC website, they explain the endorsement and show some of the gear. The prop master also gives a look at Rick's character specific items, which includes a [http://www.amazon.com/Gerber-31-000582-Modified-Partially-Serrated/dp/B004DT26ME/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1319921541&sr=8-2 DMF Folder]. --[[User:Mmarlon brando|Mmarlon brando]] 15:58, 29 October 2011 (CDT)

Some of this bag is anachronistic though, as the knives were not invented until after the zombie apocalypse destroyed humanity, and presumably the Gerber factory. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 19:21, 29 October 2011 (CDT)

How do you know that though? As far as I can remember there hasn't been a date mentioned for when the zombie apocalypse happened, it could be set in the very near future. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 01:30, 30 October 2011 (CDT)
:What I meant is that some of the knives have been released since the series started airing, and I'm assuming that the first episode wasn't set in the future. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 04:41, 30 October 2011 (CDT)
::Fair enough. I do think of it like well they haven't really set an actual date on when it occurs so anything "new" that shows up in the show is either there to look cool or it's there for some sort of product placement. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 12:33, 30 October 2011 (CDT)
:::Or both. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 12:35, 30 October 2011 (CDT)
:::: Touche --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 18:08, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

== Morgan's Revolver ==

The revolver that Morgan uses is a S&W model 60

:It can't be the Model 60 because of the curved ejector shroud. [[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 13:38, 21 November 2011 (CST)

== Season 2 spoiler-ish descriptions ==

I feel like a lot of the description "updates" on the guns used (or re-used, as applicable) in Season 2 are giving too much info away. Definitely enough to qualify as spoilers to some people (like me). One shouldn't need to narrate the scene and context in which the gun appears, at least not to the extent some of the descriptions are- especially if it's giving away future happenings.

== M4 ==

I think the caption about the doctor not noticing the covers for the M68 is a little of a moot point. The doctor stated he wasnt familiar with the weapon, and simply picked it up when soldiers started dying or running away. -MissySummers-

Talk:Sharpe's Enemy

2011-12-22T21:50:35Z

StarSummers: Created page with "Changed the main page under the heading "Unknown Flintlock Musket". The description referred to it as a rifle, as its not, i changed the description. ~~~"

Changed the main page under the heading "Unknown Flintlock Musket". The description referred to it as a rifle, as its not, i changed the description. -MissySummers-

Sharpe's Enemy

2011-12-22T21:46:36Z

StarSummers: /* Unknown Muskets */

''Sharpe's Enemy'' is the fourth episode of the Carlton UK miniseries ''Sharpe'', starring [[Sean Bean]] as Captain Richard Sharpe, the officer of a small [[Baker Rifle|Rifles]] detachment during the Napoleonic Wars. It was filmed on location in the Ukraine and the Crimea. The episode follows Sharpe and his company in their efforts to rescue two women hostages from an "army" of deserters camping along the Portugese border.

'''The following weapons can be seen in the Carlton UK Television miniseries ''Sharpe's Enemy'''

__TOC__ 

=Rifles=
==Baker Rifle==
The most prominently used weapon is the [[Baker Rifle|Baker Flintlock Rifle]], issued to special units of the British Army during the Napoleonic Wars. Richard Sharpe ([[Sean Bean]]) and his "Chosen Men" – Sgt. Patrick Harper ([[Daragh O'Malley]]), Riflemen Cooper (Michael Mears), Harris (Jason Salkey), Hagman (John Tams) and Perkins (Lyndon Davies) all carry Bakers, as does the company of the 60th Rifles led by Captain Frederickson (Philip Whitchurch).

[[Image:BakerRifle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Baker Rifle (1801-1837), Caliber - 0.625 inch (15.9 mm)]][[Image:SharpeEnemy3.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Rifleman Taylor cocks his [[Baker Rifle]].]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy4.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Rifleman Perkins (Lyndon Davies) aims his Baker.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy6.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sharpe ([[Sean Bean]]) fires his Baker.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy7.jpg|thumb|none|500px|The 60th Rifles lie in wait on the other side the door the escaping deserters are so desperately trying to break through.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy8.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sharpe and the Riflemen open fire with their Bakers, while Corporal Kelly (Morgan Jones) fires his [[Brown Bess Flintlock Musket]].]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy15.jpg|thumb|none|500px|The 60th Rifles fire their Bakers at the approaching French.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy16.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Harris (Jason Salkey) picks off an officer in the approaching French column.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy17.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Cooper (Michael Mears) does the same.]]

== Brown Bess Flintlock Musket ==
The standard rifle issued to "redcoat" British soldiers is the [[Brown Bess Flintlock Musket]].

[[Image:India pattern brown bess.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Original "India Pattern" Brown Bess musket made 1805-1840 - .75 caliber]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy18.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A firing squad takes aim at Hakeswill.]]

== Unknown Muskets ==
The advancing French soldiers carry Flintlock muskets of an unknown kind.

[[Image:SharpeEnemy13.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

=Pistols=
Various characters use [[Flintlock Pistol]]s of various kinds, including Col. Sir Augustus Farthingdale (Jeremy Child), Hakeswill ([[Pete Postlethwaite]]), "Marshall" Pot-Au-Feu (Tony Haygarth), and Teresa Moreno (Assumpta Serna).

[[Image:SharpeEnemy20.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sir Augustus Farthingdale (Jeremy Child) fires his pistol (little more than a noisemaker) into the air to get Harper's attention.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy9.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Hakeswill ([[Pete Postlethwaite]]) holds his [[Flintlock Pistol]] to Isabella's ([[Elizabeth Hurley]]) head.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy10.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Teresa (Assumpta Serna) is forced to lower her pistol, and is shot by Hakeswill in return.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy11.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Hakeswill tries to hold Isabella hostage with his (now-empty) pistol.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy12.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Col. Dubreton (Francois Guetary) holds his own pistol on Hakeswill.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy19.jpg|thumb|none|500px|An officer administers the ''coup de grace'' to Hakeswill.]]

=Other=
==Congreve Rockets==
One of the more bizarre weapons featured in the episode is the Rocket artillery invented by Sir William Congreve (1772-1828). The Prince-Regent of England (the future King George IV) was so awed by these weapons that he insisted on sending a troop of them to the Duke of Wellington's Peninsular Army. But since neither Congreve (nor anyone else) had any concept of aerodynamics, the rockets had no fins, or other stabilizers attached, and thus were wildly inaccurate.

The rockets were sporadically used in British Army engagements in the following years, including during the War of 1812 against the United States, inspiring the phrase "the rockets' red glare" in "The Star-Spangled Banner."

However, Sharpe uses them to surprising effect when fighting off a French column, since the weapons are more terrifying than conventional artillery, and because a French column is such a large, tightly-packed mass of men that the rockets cannot fail to hit part of it.

[[Image:SharpeEnemy1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Congreve Rockets taking off.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy5.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Captain Frederickson (Philip Whitchurch) empties one of the rocket canisters into a sack, making a set of impromptu grenades.]]
[[Image:SharpeEnemy14.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Lt. Gilliland (Nicholas Rowe) orders Teresa's partisans to light the fuses to the rockets.]]

[[Category: Television]]
[[Category:War]]
[[Category:British Produced/Filmed]]
[[Category:Mini-Series]]

Talk:NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service

2011-12-22T03:06:44Z

StarSummers: /* The M9 */

==Title change==
Is there any chance this page's title can be changed back to NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service? It hasn't been called Navy NCIS in years. [[User: Ben41|Ben41]]

Am I the only one who thinks this article is arranged in a very confusing manner? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 19:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:Hold up... -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

:Better? -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Much. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

I did some cleaning up, but this page still needs a LOT of work. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC

Did anyone see the gun stash in the Season 7 episode "Power Down"? There's an MP7, G36, UMP, P90, M16A2, MP5 and many other guns.```

It's looking very much better. This is the only article I've seen on here arranged in such an extremely sloppy manner that it was when I posted my first comment above. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

the rifle gibbs used in the helicopter shot , was a winchester 73 with a vineer sight. you were right it was not a henry.

For the love of God, Can someone get some screenshots?

** Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW unless I am mistaken, that Combat Elite was a Commander Combat Elite, it had a short barrel.

How about you edit it then. Oh btw could you please put some more screenshots in it.

The gun that mike franks uses is a Kimber Warrior. I watched the episode today and I got a glimpse of the grips and magazine. I own one and they both match mine.

==Subdivide Category==
The handgun section of this article is exceptionally long and I was wondering whether putting revolvers (at least half a dozen are listed) in a separate category from auto pistols would help make the sectoin appear less bulky. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

That is a very good idea. -[[User: L.J. Gibbs]]

== Sniper Rifle ID ==

Need help ID'ing this rifle. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a Marine Corps M40A3.It is the newer version of the M40A1.

[[Image:NCIS_22020.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

They say that Gibbs M40A1 is in a .338 Lapua, which is impossible. The M40A1 was and will always be a short action reviever, it was the M24 that was built on the long action. Is this a mistake of the show itself or a mistake on this web site? [[Spades of Columbia]] Dec 12, 2010

I'm just going by what Abby says near the end of the episode, but she doesn't name any particular rifle. She just says she matched the bullet to his sniper rifle. If your going to have one rifle, why not have two. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This is from the NCIS wiki about Gibbs rifle ammo "Lapua 308 boat tail, full metal jacket, and molybdenum (or "moly")-coated rounds."

http://ncis.wikia.com/wiki/Leroy_Jethro_Gibbs

Now a lapua 308 win would make sense but why even say lapua when its still a winchester round. plus, it doesnt change the fact that this site has a m40a1 marked as a .338 lapua, so if someone could change that this would make the world right again. [[Spades of Columbia]]

It's a .308 Winchester chambered rifle, but the ammunition is manufactured by Lapua.

== SIG 229 ==

I don't have any screencap proof that they've changed over to the 229 in the new season, so I'm going to put this in the discussion until someone can tell me what episode they saw this in. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

SIG-Sauer P229
In season 7 the entire Team switches to the P229 .40 S&W the same model the REAL NCIS use.

[[Image:NCIS-ZIVA-7x11-P228.jpg|thumb|none|400px|7x11, P228 not a P229.]]

Also used in 7x08, 7x09, 7x10 and thats all I have recorded right now. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

that still looks like a 228 to me. the trigger guard looks round, and the slide serrations dont go halfway as does the 229. but thats just me...

That's what I said, though my wording could have been clearer. I've removed the listing until there is proof. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 05:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

oh crap, sorry i totally didn't read anything you wrote earlier. just looked at the picture x] my bad.

==Kel-Tec==
In one episode (I think it was either "Cloak" or "Dagger") Agent Lee threatens a man extorting information out of her with what looked like a Kel-Tec subcompact pistol. Can anyone confirm this? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

==The M9==
Technically isn't the M9 and the Beretta 92 the same gun?

- M9 is the military classification of the 92F Beretta, yes. But the M9 classification is used to refer to the guns actually used by actors representing military personnel, while 92F is used in reference to being used by someone non-military (even though in the case of films/shows, they're always 92Fs/92FSs anyway) In addition, the image thumbnail is of a much newer M9A1 (which has the rail), and is not the same as the base 92F/M9. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, I think.

::Actually, on IMFDB, we just call them all 92F/92FS, even when they're in the hands of actors playing U.S. military personnel. The reason is that propmasters and armorers in Hollywood only ever use the civilian 92Fs, because the military M9 is almost impossible to find in private hands. And we only care about the behind-the-scenes info, not real life. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Indeed. And I agree, I don't care about real life either. ;D [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Same here. God bless you all.

Can anyone here tell me what, if any, differences there are between a common 92FS and an M9? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 13:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, I'm wondering that myself. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 09:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

:: If i remember correctly, the M9 has a single white band on the bottom of the rear sight to be aligned with the front dot, rather than two dots on eitherside of the sight. Butttt i cant remember perfectly. -MissySummers-

==Can't sleep==
I suppose there's no real point to this, but did anyone else notice this? Its from 7x08, and that's DiNozzo just of screen by the way.
[[Image:NCIS-7x08-1.jpg|thumb|none|400px|What's wrong with this picture?]]
:you mean the Glock? --[[User:Redram355|redram355]] 18:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I forgot I did this earlier. Yes, only that one single camera angle. I've never understood errors like that. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

At the end of the episode "Ravenous," I believe Tony is yet again holding a Glock. This could be a continuity error or it could be due to the fact that he worked for various police departments before joining NCIS. --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 03:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In season one, spisode 3 or 4 " The Curse", a gun is seen mounted on the wall at 34:46. Any idea what it is?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 02:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize there's a shitload of guns in that episode right? Happen to have a screenshot? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize i tolf you exactly when the gun is seen? Find the episode online.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 00:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I never notice any guns the first time. This what you mean? If so, not a clue. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-1x05-1.jpg|thumb|none|225px|Unknown gun from 1x05 ''The Curse'']]

That's it. Looks almost like a P38 sort of. --[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 01:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what i thought at first, but the front sight and trigger guard aren't right. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe a Luger or Walther prototype. Just a thought. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

Belive it's a Grendel P-30 pistol, with slide locked back. (Rusgunnut1)

==Moved from main page==
This is where discussions & comments are supposed to go. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

→IMI Mini Uzi -
I love how in this she goes and sprays rounds around from the hip while her mossad partner uses his P90 like true operator would [[24.17.120.59]]

→Walther P99 -
That is probably the smallest "suppressor" I have ever seen on any gun, I doubt it would do much in the way of sound suppression
[[24.17.120.59]]

What is with the section on the "Fake Glock 18". It either has a selector switch and is a true 18 or it doesnt, at which point it would be a modified 17. "Fake Glock 18" just comes off ignorant and is misleading. [[Spades of Columbia]]

== M40A1 ==
Ari attempts to kill Gibbs with it before Ziva kills him. Ari used .308 Lapua Magnums to kill Special Agent Todd, leading Ziva to remark that "You (Gibbs) used .338 Lapua Magnums when you were a sniper". This is strange because the M40A1 is chambered solely in 7.62X51 NATO cartridge. Another major note is that in the "Kill Ari" two part series, a round is called a .308 Lapua magnum was used, this is not an real round, the round used was likely confused with a .308 winchester, or a .338 Lapua magnum. I like the show, but they have to research their ammo.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Ziva never mentions what caliber Gibbs used, Gibbs himself states it and Ziva replies simply "''That's what you shot as a Marine sniper''"
Prior to this exchange, Gibb's states "''As a marine sniper, I used hand loaded Lapua .308 boattail full metal jacket moly-coated bullets.''" Though recently it has been stated that Gibb's used a .338 Lapua Magnum round to kill Pedro Hernandez in revenge for Shannon and Kelly's deaths. [http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=887] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You really need to know what your talking about to post you know. i watch this show almost religiously. trust me i know hat happens.
Under the M40A1, it claimed that Ari used a .338 Lapua round but in the episode "Kill Ari: Part 1" it states that Ari used a .308 Lapua round. I'm not sure how to go about editing the page and just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything. Can someone verify and edit for me? --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 21:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Like stated above the M40A1 is ONLY made in short action and can not possibly ever ever be in a .338 Lapua. Plus, do to the history of that caliber it would not be logical for Ari or Gibbs to use or even get their hands on that type of rifle, it must be a mistake from the show. [[Spades of Columbia]]

The whole deal with the .308 lapua magnum is confusing. 1)There is no such round as a .308 Lapua Magnum. 2) What there thinking of is a .338 lapua magnum for the "Kill Ari" series 3) Gibbs uses a .308s MANUFACTURED by Lapua. not created. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

In the episode "Borderland", Paloma Reynosa gave Abby the round that Gibbs left on the ridge. It said, on the bottom ".338 Lapua"

I know, it was gibbs personal rifle he used to kill Hernandez, not the M40A1. in the future you might wanna get an account or post your name if you want feedback.-[[User:SargeOverkill]]

== Too much info ==
Ducky reviews autopsy results from the crew of the freighter on which Ziva was traveling and mentions numerous "5.7x28mm" rounds in the bodies. While the 5.7x28mm cartridge is the correct ammo for the P90 used by Israel, the bullet in that cartridge is same .224 bullet used in the standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge fired by the M16, the SIG 550 and dozens of other weapons. How could Ducky know from just the autopsy that the bullets came from a 5.7x28?

-Bullet weight. They are different grain rounds.

-also, don't forget, you can tell what weapon fired the ammo by the rifling patterns.

== Weapons categorization ==

I noticed that someone reordered the handguns alphabetically. Because of the fact the SIG-Sauer P228 is the main handgun used in the series, I just going to put the SIG-Sauer section first. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree that's how it should be done, it makes sense. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

- Sounds fine to me. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

==Rule Fifty-One==

I was watching the Season 7 finale the other day and I noticed a few things. There's a really good shot of part of Mike Franks's Kimber near the end; it looks like it has pearl grips, but I couldn't get a screencap. Also the cartel members had at least one G36C in Mexico, and a couple MP5Ks on the runway. Unfortunately I couldn't get screencaps so can someone maybe look into this? Thanks --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 22:01, 9 August 2010

I watched the episode and Franks' gun has crimson trace laser grips in tan. It looked like it had night sights but wasnt a warrior because it didnt have a ambidextrous safety. I think that his gun is a regular custom II with the night sights and the laser grips.

== SMG in Ziva's Flashback in Shalom==

Can anyone ID the SMG used by Ziva in her flashback to a Mossad Kidon assassination in "Shalom".

It was a [[Micro Uzi]] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you, Crazycrankle.

==Revolver used in Cover Story==

Can anyone ID the revolver used by Landon in "Cover Story"? P.S. Add a screencap with the ID.

==Beretta 92FS Inox==

The "Beretta 92FS Inox" has a finish that's way too shiny to be an Inoxidizable (stainless) finish. It looks to me like it's actually a regular Beretta 92F with an after-market polished nickel finish and pearl (or pearlite) grips. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

==Some Unknown Guns==

A few guns that I'm not positive on. They might not be 100% necessary, but here they are:
[[Image:TwilightHK94_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Possibly an HK94 Carbine with a civilian-length barrel and a stock. There isn't a clearer shot than this.]]
[[Image:ZivaRevolver1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A snubnosed revolver that Ziva uses to gun down a serial killer while undercover, don't remember the episode but it was in Season 6. The episode is titled "Recoil." It's from Season 5. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 20:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)L.J. Gibbs]]
[[Image:NCISS5 504.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Same as above.]]
[[Image:Sxsw_lever_action.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A lever action rifle used briefly in "South by Southwest". Possibly the same one Gibbs uses?]]
[[Image:GCBC_AK74_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Maybe an AKS-74, based on the magazine?]]

Given that AK type rifles were used by all the other terrorists, chance are good it's one of the many types. And the Ziva caps are listed as a Colt Python on the main page, though the listing lacks screencaps. Also you may want better quality screencaps if you want to put any of those on the page. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't have anything better. If anyone else does or can get them it'd be great. That's why I put them here instead. -[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 17:23, 19 August 2010

==Ziva's rifle in 4x14: Blowback==
[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Not a SL8, maybe a Remington 700 or something? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 07:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]
Maybe it's a Remington AICS, do you have any other screenshots? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 08:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|How's this? Didn't think there was a shot from farther out, I paying attention to the wrong screen when this appeared. Still not very good though. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]

Yeah, it looks a Remington 700PSS.--[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 09:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

the episode "recoil" wasnt in s6 it was the 3rd last episode of season 5

== Ziva's Knife ==

What kind of tac knife does Ziva use? It looks like a SOG Tsunami to me, but were those in production when she first appeared (around Season 3's "Silver War")?

It's listed on BladeForums as a Cold Steel Kobun. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

== Frank's Kimber ==

I've been watching for some time now, and have only seen Frank's in 3 episodes. All of these episodes hes' used his Kimber is it just a coincidence or is that his signature weapon like James Bond's is the Walther, and that Dirty Harry's is the .44? [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 00:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

: I wouldnt call it 'signature', but rather his main sidearm. Bond and Dirty Harry had it A LOT and even people who know diddly squat about guns could tell who had a 44 magnum. Franks' Kimber has only been in a few episodes, and we still arent sure what kind of Kimber it is.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 04:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

== McGee is left-handed ==

Is this problematic when using a SIG pistol?

Only when he wants to use the de-cocker...everything else works just fine.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 20:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, McGee is left handed. Like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

:The de-cocker is a bit of a problem, the slidelock can also be a bit of an issue depending on the size of the shooter's hands. My fingers are a little to long to easily use the P22X slidelock, but I'd imagine that someone with slightly smaller hands could manage it with relative ease.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 22:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

My hands are a little on the larger side, even being a woman (im 5'10") but ive never had an issue using a Sig left handed. Yes, its not as ergonomically sound as right handed but i can shoot left handed without much issue. -MissySummers-

==Revolvers==
I separated the revolvers from the pistols in the handgun section to make the page easier to digest. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

:- I don't think it hurts anything. Nice idea, good job. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

==Pm12==
The mexican dude used a pm12 of some sort in the latest episode, couldn't distinguish what exactly.

You mean the Beretta M12? I know, I added it. Anyone know what the Mexican drug-dealer lady had?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 19:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

:I'm assuming you mean this? And her goons were using 551's. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-Paloma-Pistol-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Not a clue.]]

Thats a magnum research micro eagle.
-k9870

Gibbs had that double-barrel shotgun for a second or two as well, and there was a pretty good shot of Franks' Kimber too. --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]]

:Should we put that screencap in the main page? [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

No, is very obviously bootleg, which is against site rules. It's been less than a week, so unless you can show me where on the official site it came from, it's bootleg and not allowed on the main page. When the DVD set comes out, it's cool. (Can we screen cap episodes that are available on the CBS webpage?)--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 16:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a very high probability that most, if not all, screen caps from active TV seasons are "bootlegs". The only "legit" options are iTunes and Hulu, the later doesn't meet quality requirements in most peoples eyes. The former is expensive when you already plan on buying the entire season when it's on Blu-ray or DVD. Also, I replaced it with what I believe is an iTunes downloaded version. (I did it on my mum's friends computer, there's no watermarks or anything.) I also got other HD caps from the episode aswell. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

==MP-9==
Not to be picky, but should we have the MP-9 from "Legend: Part II" on here as well, since we have the SIG SG 552s and Glock 17 from that episode as well? --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 11: 53, 26 September 2010
:Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

==Jericho 941==
Is this a Jericho 941 or another Desert Eagle?
[[Image:NCIS34 502.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

Neither. The trigger guard has a curve to it; both Eagles have straight guards. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Beretta Cheetah springs to mind. [[User:Noe|Noe]] 11:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

That was my first thought, but the slide isn't the right shape at the front. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 11:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

CZ-83

It looks a lot like a Makarov PM, or the hungaran variant

When Faatin Amal starts to put the pillow over Namir Eschel's face, the pistol is a suppressed Makarov PM, but after Eschel dies, the pistol looks like a CZ-83. Can anyone confirm that othern than myself?--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 08:26, 6 November 2011 (CST)

== Ziva's backup in "Jack Knife" ==

What compact pistol did Ziva carry in Season 7's "Jack Knife"? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS7 33.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like an AMT Backup. Whether it is the .45 ACP, 9mm, or .380 is beyond me. Can't see the barrel diameter.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

==Sniper rifle used in "The Bone Yard"==
Can anyone ID the sniper rifle used in Season 1's "The Bone Yard"? It's the rifle used by the mob hitman. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Ben41. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 14:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS2 60.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

==Suppressed Glock in "Designated Target"==
Can anyone ID the exact model of suppressed Glock that was used by one of the Burundian death squad members?

==Photo of Webley==
Here's the screencap of the Webley revolver used in the recent NCIS episode.

[[Image:Webley revolver NCIS.jpg|250px]]

Feel free to use it to correct the article if any. Thanks. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 23:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

:I think that might actually be an Enfield No.2 going by the caliber... I'll have to watch the episode again.

:: I see. NCIS refers to it as a Webley. But they can be wrong. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm just a bit ticked off that the Royal Marine Major claims to keep one in his flat in London. You know, what with private ownership of handguns being all but illegal in Britain. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
: Oh Go bark at the moon.--[[User:SAMBAMA|SAMBAMA]] 17:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Antique firearm collectors in the United Kingdom ARE allowed to buy and sell pieces for their collections. Having said that, i'm not very familiar with webley revolvers. Are they old enough to be considered 'antique'?--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 17:41, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== editing page ==

In order to edit the page, you need to be a registered user. If you are not, you can make recommendations for changes on this discussion page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Forend isn't a word, and as far as I know lights are always mounted fore, not hind. I recommend a wholesale removal of the word forend without replacement.

== Kahr P9/K9 ==

The section on the Kahr P9 contains the statement: "The P9 is similar to the K9 but it has the +1 magazine." This is incorrect. The P9 and K9 are both 7+1 guns in stock configuration and their magazines are interchangeable. The P9 has a polymer frame and the K9 has a stainless steel frame. The P9 can be seen on Kahr's website here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-P9.asp], and the K9 can be seen here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K9.asp]. You can see both come standard with a 7 round magazine.

==Borin's SIG in "Ships in the Night"==
The subcompact SIG that CGIS Special Agent Abigail Borin had in her purse looked like either a Stainless Steel SIG P230 or a Stainless Steel SIG P232. Can anyone make a positive ID? Add a screencap, too, when you make the ID.--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 18:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

==Gibbs' Suppressed Gun in "Judgment Day" Flashback==
I believe that the suppressed gun that Gibbs used to assassinate Anatoli Zukov in the flashback in Judgment Day Part 1 & 2 and again in a flashback in Enemies Domestic was a suppressed SIG Sauer P228.
P.S. When Gibbs shot Zukov, he fired three shots. Two into Zukov's chest and one in his head. Execution-style. Please note the same execution style shooting in Brothers In Arms. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC) I would try to get a screencap, but I do not have any of the NCIS seasons on DVD. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Was that back when he was in Paris with Jen? If so, I think it would be pretty hard to identify due to the effects they use in flashback scenes.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
::Not if you have a keen eye for detail, like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::It would make sense to use a P228, since it is their duty pistol. --[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::But I honestly do not think that there are any SIG Sauer P228's that are made to accept a suppressor. At least, none that I know of. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm sure that there are threaded barrels availiable for the P228. Probably not as much now, since the P228 isn't in production anymore :( but back when that scene took place I'm sure they were availiable.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 21:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::These were the first two results when I used Yahoo! Search for threaded barrels for the SIG Sauer P228.
::::::http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-p229-replacement-barrel-9mm-threaded.html
::::::http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/ShowProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=29&productid=311

:::::::::It doesn't matter if there are externally threaded barrels available for the P228; any movie pistol can take a suppressor because the barrel has to be threaded internally in order to accept the blank-firing adapter (BFA). Fake suppressors can be added simply by using an attachment that screws into the barrel's internal threading after the blank conversion has been done. This is why you routinely see characters in movies screwing suppressors onto pistols that do not have externally threaded barrels. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 11:00, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== Henry Rifle in Season 6 "South by Southwest" ==

Just saw this episode on TV and the Henry rifle is mis-classified as a Winchester Model 1873. The two are very close in construction, but the rifle referred to as "the Henry" from the show is indeed a Henry 30-30. You have to look close during the show but the rifle Gibbs uses has an Octagon barrel which is only used in Henry rifles.

== Unknown MG found by Malachi ==

I think this thing might be an M240, judging by the heat shield. Still not sure why it's got an EoTech on it, though. [[User:Raven|Raven]] 06:56, 9 March 2011 (MSK)

== Tony's Gun in Baltimore ==

I of course don't have screen caps and maybe somebody out there already does...
The gun Tony carried while working for Baltimore P.D. looks to be a Colt Commander or the like. Black grips, probably not full 5-inch barrel, and possible novak rear sight. Just wondering if Anybody else caught that. [[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]
::I definitely agree it is a 1911 variant with novak sights, but I think it did have a full length barrel. I could be wrong though UPDATE: Just got around to looking at it again, definite novak sights and no slant in the slide serrations (none in the front).User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:45, 6 May 2011 (CDT)

The page says its a Gold Cup National Match but i dont think it looks anything like it. Maybe a customized Series 70? -Missy

:Definitely not a Gold Cup, but I don't really know what it could be. Springfield Armory of some kind? For know I am moving it to "Unidentified 1911".--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 18:16, 20 November 2011 (CST)

If you look at the picture below, it appears to have a full length guide rod system similar to that found on compact Springfield 1911s. I disagree with JazzBlackBelt's assessment of the barrel length; it looks to be of no more than 4 inches in length. Could it be springfield Champion model of some sort? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 21:04, 8 December 2011 (CST)

:: This is what i can see from the screen shots out there. It appears to have a beavertail grip safety, a skeletonized hammer, a full length guide rod, straight cocking serrations in the rear, and novak style sights. The rest of the gun is obscured. Judging by the images below, the barrel seems to be more towards a commander size model, rather than a 5 inch barrel, but that might just be because of the camera. -MissySummers-

I think there is a good shot of it in DiNozzo's shoulder holster somewhere.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:48, 15 December 2011 (CST)

[[Image:NCISS8 26.jpg|thumb|700px|none|DiNozzo draws his Colt in Season 8's "Baltimore".]]

==Unidentified 1911==
An unidentified 1911 is the sidearm of Baltimore P.D. Detective Anthony DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) in Season 8's "Baltimore".
[[Image:NCISS8 24.jpg|thumb|500px|none|In a flashback, DiNozzo holds his Colt as a Baltimore PD detective.]]

[[Image:NCISS8 01.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
[[Image:NCISS8 04.jpg|thumb|500px|none]]
[[Image:NCISS8 26.jpg|thumb|500px|none|DiNozzo draws his Colt in Season 8's "Baltimore".]]

== Frank's SW1911==
In "Pyramid" when we get the shot of Franks' SW1911, the slide reads SW1911'''PD''', and there are no rails on the frame. Doesn't the only full-length barrel SW1911PD have rails? I couldn't find a 5" barrel PD with no rails.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:39, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== DVD Cover ==

Do you think we should update the DVD Cover pictures to the latest (season 8)? Here it is to decide if you like it or not.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:52, 12 August 2011 (CDT)
[[Image:NCISDVDCoverSeason8.jpg|thumb|none|250px|NCIS- Season 8 (2010-2011)]]

== 9x03 "The Penelope Papers" ==

In the latest episode - 9x03, ''The Penelope Papers'' - there was something described as a Vietnam-era prototype carbon-fibre pistol. Is this an actual gun, or was it made up? The microchips in the caterpillar (self-replicating, no less) were dreadfully fake, but in a world that includes the gyrojet and the Krummlauf... well, I wouldn't put anything past wartime weapons tech.

So, anyone have any ideas? Fictional prop, or little-known prototype? [[User:Awmperry|Awmperry]] 12:47, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

: Probably a prop from actual pistols. Not sure if we should put it up. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 20:55, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

::I think we should, it was a pistol after all and this site usually adds weapons even if they are mocked up. Looked like a CZ variant to me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:47, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:NCIS-BLACKHAND.jpg|thumb|500px|none|The "Black Hand". --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:38, 13 October 2011 (CDT)]]

Hmmmm... could be a mocked up HK45 or Mk 23, but I honestly have NO ideas--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 15:07, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

: Leaning on the former there mate. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 19:56, 13 October 2011 (CDT)
:: Grip definitely looks more HK45-ish. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 03:33, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
::: It is an IMI / IWI SP-21 Barak pistol. [[User:SgtRonin|SgtRonin]] 05:36, 06 November 2011 (CDT)

==9x04 "Enemy on the Hill"==

Got the photo of the two snipers. One of them's an AW rifle. I'm not on the other rifle. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 01:57, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

==Splitting the article to seasons==

Some of the long articles have been like 24 and Ultimate Force so far with Hawaii Five-0 following it. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 00:39, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

It's going to be a little tougher since this show is already in its 9th season. It didn't seem that they used a lot of different weapons each season like Hawaii Five-0. The agents all still use the SIG and they don't go on a lot of raids using more than their sidearms. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:45, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ugh, what is this, season-splitting week? First H-50 which I can understand, but now NCIS? It doesn't really need it, does it?--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 03:28, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:[[Stargate: SG1]] got season split despite mostly using the same weapons from season to season. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 06:09, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

== Additional Screenshots ==

[[Image:NCIS 005.JPG|thumb|none|500px|In the Season 2 episode "Chained", Gibbs pulls his P228.]]
[[Image:NCIS 007.JPG|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo with his P228 in the Season 3 episode "Bait".]]
[[Image:NCIS 008.JPG|thumb|none|500px|Ziva David ([[Cote de Pablo]]) draws her P228 in Season 3's "Ravenous".]]
[[Image:NCISS3 001.jpg|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) with his P228 in Season 3's "Switch".]]

Talk:Street Kings

2011-12-19T07:00:27Z

StarSummers: /* Biggs Beretta */ new section

I see you changed Ludlow's 1911 from a S&W to a RRA. It is neither. The cocking serrations on Ludlow's pistol are 90 degrees, while the serrations on all RRA pistols are angled at 11 degrees. The frontstrap on Ludlow's pistol is a standard cut, while the RRA cuts their's very high and at a 90 degree angle. Ludlow's 1911 has a pinned front sight; RRA uses a dovetail, and RRA uses a standard length serrated slidestop; not a flat extended stop. Also note the magazine funnel, ambidextrous safety, stainless (not blued) barrel - none of which are on the RRA.

I looked for the make of this pistol extensively, and came to the conclusion that it is a franken pistol built from a standard blued Colt; probably a series 70. There are lots of competition add ons in stainless steel, and in black; none of which would come standard on a blued gun that lacks a high cut frontstrap.

: Yeah, I knew it was likely wrong, I'd been looking through my Standard Catalog of firearms and none of the RRA pistols fit the bill. I think it is likely just a custom Series 70 or Series 80. Thanks for the info.

Hello everyone. New account but I've been looking at these pages every time I watch a new movie. Looking at this page, I noticed that you have Ludlow's 1911 is listed in the 1911 page as a sw1911. I noticed on the big picture that says similar to pistol in film that it says series 80 and Cylinder & Slide on the right side. I've ordered a couple of parts from Cylinder & Slide and I know they mostly use Springfield 1911s. Makes me wonder whether this is a C&S custom pistol, and whether it is a series 80 colt, or a sw1911. -Jan

:It's definitely not a SW1911. The cocking serrations on the S&W are slanted, whereas the serrations on this gun are vertical. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 21:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

- The snubby that Ludlow uses in the convenience store is actually a Charter Arms Off Duty.
- Good Call, I fixed it. -GM45

== Demille's shotgun ==

In the Benelli M3 section theres a pic of Demille pointing what is labeled as a Benelli M3. I think the shape of the pump and groove in the yop of the reciever is more indicative of a remington 870. Also the lack of a charging handle for semi-auto action rules out the M3.
yeah demille's shotgun looked like a 870 and so did santos's , and also the shotgun that diskant used in 40's town ..... dalemac37
== Mossberg 590 ==

:I'm starting to think this is a 500 with a heat-shield. I looks like it has a standard mag tube, a 590 has an extended. Am I wrong? -[[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::Not Necessarily, MPM has two pictures that show the differences between a 590 and a 500, While I cannot see this picture clearly, It definitely looks more like a 590.
:By standard, I mean only the six shot tube. Since the barrel is clearly extending past the mag tube by a lot, I'm assuming it is just a 500. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::It's definitely a 500 for the reasons above. 590s always have extended mag tubes, and this gun clearly has a standard. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 21:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

== M16A2 ==

:Based on the shape of the carry handle, I'd actually say they like more like M16A4s, the carry handles look removable. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

==Charter Arms Off Duty==
There's no mention of which side the bullet hits, also the scapula (This is just how I read it, not sure if it's what he meant though) is essentially the shoulder. So what the coroner (Not the ballistics expert) said, is indeed correct. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 10:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
[[Image:Street-Kings-Washington-Scapula.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Screen cap of the GSW.]]
[[Image:Posterior.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Probable area of GSW, and scapula]]

== A few things ==

1. As previously said, the lack of a charging handle on the receiver of Demille's shotgun leads me to believe that it isn't a Benelli semi-auto, the sights make me say Remington 870.
2. Again as said previously scapula is the proper name for shoulder blade, so the dialogue in the movie is correct.
3. I can't help but laugh at all the screencaps of Common with his eyes closed.

== "Manstopper" bullets? ==

Detective Tom Ludlow (Keanu Reeves) tells Detective Paul Diskant (Chris Evans) to different ammo, what kind of bullets are they?

"Swap your rounds out."

"We don't want the coroner digging department-issue ammo out of these assholes. Use the gloves."

"Jesus. These are some serious manstoppers."

''I think they are 9mm JHP +P+P''

== Missing Gun ==

When Ludlow goes to Wander's house to confront him, He tries pulling his 1911 on Wander who knocks it from his hands.

Wander then seems to draw a small nickel revolver which they both fight over, and again gets knocked to the floor.

''Wander's revolver is a S&W model 66. I've added it to the page''[[User:Rafa|Rafa]]

== Ludlow's 1911 ==

i believe if you look closely when he picks it up off of the floor at the commanders house you will see that it very very very closely resembles a Springfield 1911 Operator

:The Operator series comes with rail frames. His gun does not have a rail. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:25, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Could be a TRP. There are Springfield TRP 1911s without rails.
:The TRP has front slide serrations which Ludlow's does not. If it was a Springfield it would the GI model that has been customized, since the Mil-Spec has slanted serrations. Does anybody have it on blu-ray? I think in this shot below you might be able to tell what it is. If the gun has good roll marks. But from the looks of it, it seems to be plain. :(--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 03:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:SKSW1911-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Ludlow checks his custom 1911 after a long night of drinking.]]

The 1911 most resembles a colt special combat government. If you look close enough you can tell that all of the features of the gun are the same as the special combat government. Everything from the aluminum 3 hole trigger, beaver-tail grip safety, adjustable sights, only rear cocking grooves, and the custom magwell on the bottom show that its the most reasonable guess.

Does LA permit that gun as an off duty side arm or can you just have what ever you want? [[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

::Well, thanks to the movie's armorer, [[User:TerribleMorgan|Terence Morgan]], we now have a picture of the 1911 from ''[[Street Kings]]'':

::[[File:IMG 0444.JPG|thumb|none|400px|Colt MK IV Series 80 - .45 The weapon pictured here is the actual screen-used handgun used from the film ''[[Street Kings]]'' and also the TV series ''[[Dark Blue (TV Series)|Dark Blue]]'' and ''[[Chase]]''.]]

::As it turns out, our initial guess was right on the money: We speculated that it was a modified Series 80, and indeed it is. It also turns out that this same gun was also carried by [[Dylan McDermott]] in ''[[Dark Blue (TV Series)]]'' and [[Cole Hauser]] in ''[[Chase]]''. Enjoy this awesome picture, and be sure to thank Terence Morgan! -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:22, 13 April 2011 (CDT)

== Demilles Off Duty Weapon ==

I just caught this rewatching the film. When Captain Wander is telling Demille and Clady (Klady?) to go back and write up a report, briefly, you can see a gun holstered. It appears to be a Full Frame Glock, maybe a 17, but its only seen for a second, and i dont think its seen again after. Im willing to think, with the clothes hes wearing and the time of day, its his off duty sidearm, like Ludlows Series 80.

The best shot i can see of it, hes got a Glock 17, his badge, and a magazine holster, partially hidden by his shirt.

The gun can be seen from roughly 11:20 to 11:50

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-08-10-23h29m45s248.png

this is the best shot i can get of it.

== Biggs Beretta ==

In one of the captions it mentions that the safety is off. I was wondering if anyone could confirm this: I was told a number of years ago by a LEO that they were trained to carry their Beretta's Safety off, round in the chamber since it was a DA/SA gun, that it came about when a number of officers had been shot over the years when they drew on a suspect and forgot the safety was on, and ended up having to flick the safety off and then bring the gun back to ready.

I was curious if this was true? Any LEO's chime in here?

Talk:M1911 pistol series

2011-12-19T06:27:46Z

StarSummers: /* Para-Ordance */

==Additional Variants==
===Screen Used===
[[Image:EnemyofState1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Screen-used original Colt M1911 pistol wielded by [[Gene Hackman]]'s character Brill in ''[[Enemy of the State]]'', serial #357414 (photo from Long Mountain Outfitters).]]
[[Image:M1911WeWereSoldiers.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Screen used M1911 pistol (Hero Gun) carried and used by [[Sam Elliott]] as Command Sergeant Major Basil Plumley in ''[[We Were Soldiers]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1WeWereSoldiers.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Screen Used Hero Gun M1911A1, carried by [[Mel Gibson]] as Lt. Col. Hal Moore in the film ''[[We Were Soldiers]]'' - .45 ACP. Provided by Cinema Weaponry.]]
[[Image:ColtMkIVSilver DeNiro Machete.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Custom engraved nickel plated Colt MKIV Series 80 with pearl grips - .45 ACP. This is the screen used pistol for [[Robert De Niro]] playing Senator McLaughlin in the upcoming Robert Rodriguez film [[Machete]] (scheduled for release on April 16, 2010). ]]
[[Image:ColtCustomXXX.jpg‎|thumb|450px|none|This is the screen used Colt XSE M1911 Pistol, wielded, carried (and lost) by August Gibbons ([[Samuel L. Jackson]]) in the film ''[[XXX 2: State of the Union]]''. This pistol has a customized slide with the initials "A G" etched (for "Augustus Gibbons") and also has the logo for SEAL TEAM 4 in the center - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:T2M1911detonicsprop.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The Colt/Detonics M1911A1 Series 70 hybrid pistol used in the film ''[[Terminator 2: Judgment Day]]'' - 9x19mm.]]
[[File:Saradet.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Detonics 1911 used in the film ''[[Terminator 2: Judgment Day]]''. Image courtesy of ScreeUsed.com]]
[[Image:SCM1911A1-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The stainless Springfield Armory M1911A1 used by [[Benicio del Toro|Benico Del Toro]] as Detective Jack Rafferty in the film ''[[Sin City]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:TitanicM1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|A Nickel-Plated ''[[Titanic]]'' M1911 from Stembridge Gun Rentals - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:P1010522ig5.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Actual D&L Sports Professional Model Longslides - .45 ACP movie props used by the Comedian [[Jeffrey Dean Morgan]] in ''[[Watchmen]]''.]]
[[Image:Wanted_21.JPG|thumb|none|450px|The Safari Arms Matchmaster used by [[Angelina Jolie]] in the film ''[[Wanted]]'' - .45 ACP. Note Safari Arms Lion logo.]]
[[Image:IMG 1666.JPG|thumb|none|450px|A Kimber Warrior - .45 ACP used on ''[[The Unit]]''. The weapon pictured here was the actual Warrior carried and fired by Dennis Haysbert in the last season.]]
[[Image:IMG 1534.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Another Kimber Warrior - .45 ACP was used in the most recent season of ''[[The Unit]]''. This was Dennis Haysbert's backup weapon in case the first failed (it is customary in Hollywood for each "hero" gun use to have at least one backup on set).]]
[[Image:BDSIIParas-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|A pair of Para-Ordnance SSPs (.45 ACP) as used in ''[[The Boondock Saints II: All Saints Day]]''. The weapons pictured here were the actual screen-used guns handled and fired by Clifton Collins, Jr. in the film; note the custom grips, golden suppressors, and "El Jefe" engraved into the slides. ''(Big thanks to [[Al Vrkljan]] at Movie Armaments Group for this IMFDB Exclusive image!)'']]
[[Image:ShootEmUp-HammersonNiteTac-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|A Para-Ordnance Nite-Tac (.45 ACP) used in ''[[Shoot 'Em Up]]''. The weapon pictured here is one of the actual screen-used guns from the film; note the engraved Hammerson logo. ''(Big thanks to [[Al Vrkljan]] at Movie Armaments Group for this IMFDB Exclusive image!)'']]
[[Image:1911-The Getaway.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Government Commercial M1911 - .45 ACP used by [[Steve McQueen]] in the film ''[[Getaway, The (1972)]]''.]]
[[Image:M&MSColtXSEusedinfilm.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The Colt M1911A1 XSE - .45 ACP used in the film ''[[Mr. & Mrs. Smith]]''.]]
[[Image:ColtM1911A1PunisherProps.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The two blank firing prop custom Colt M1911A1s used in the film ''[[Punisher, The (2004)]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:NashBridges1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Nash Bridges' Custom 1911 - .38 Super. This is the actual pistol that was used by [[Don Johnson]] in the show ''[[Nash Bridges]]''.]]
[[Image:Colt-M1911A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The actual M1911A1 [[Pierce Brosnan]] used in ''[[The World Is Not Enough]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:SerenityM191A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Jayne Cobb's Mocked-Up Custom M1911A1 - .45 ACP used in the film ''[[Serenity]]''.]]
[[Image:P00654 1911 Full Left.jpg|thumb|none|450px|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen used Colt M1911 with Nickel-plated and pearl grips - .45 ACP pistol. This non-firing prop weapon is verified as screen used from the film '''[[The Other Guys]]'''. The gun is accompanied by the Galco shoulder holster and clip pouch also used in numerous scenes from the film. This item is currently being sold by [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet]; see [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=6ef04a13fbe759cbdcbdc6bc4c4b809f&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TGC&Product_Code=P00654&Category_Code=OtherGuys here].]]
[[Image:IMG 1509.JPG|thumb|none|450px|A Strayer Voight Infinity - .45 ACP. This is one of the actual guns that has been used by The Company henchmen on ''[[Heroes]]''; this weapon was supplied to the show by Independent Studio Services and has been used on every season.]]
[[Image:Expendable-kimber-b.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Modified Kimber Gold Combat II used by [[Sylvester Stallone‎]] in ''[[Expendables, The|The Expendables]]'' - .45 ACP]]

[[Image:IMG 0444.JPG|thumb|none|450px|[[M1911|Colt MK IV Series 80]] - .45 ACP This was used in the film ''[[Street Kings]]'' and the series ''[[Chase]]'' and ''[[Dark Blue]]''.]]

===Airsoft Variants===
[[Image:GP WE M1911Peral lg.jpg|thumb|none|450px|An airsoft reproduction of the Springfield Armory M1911-A1 made by J-Armoury (Western Arms) used in the film ''[[Se7en]]''.]]
[[Image:CobrGold1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Perfect airsoft replica of [[Cobra]]'s Colt GC National Match - 9mm Pistol made by Western Arms.]]
[[Image:Htk1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft replica of Storm's M1911A1 from ''[[Hard to Kill]]'' - made by Western Arms.]]
[[Image:WA-WLUF_2_mark.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Replica of Castor Troy's custom Springfield Armory M1911-A1 - .45 ACP from the film ''[[Face/Off]]''.]]
[[Image:WA490 4 mark.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Long Slide Jim Hoag M1911A1 replica - .45 ACP, very similar to what Frank ([[James Caan]]) used in the film ''[[Thief]]''.]]
[[Image:Snake_.45-2.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Sheriff Co. "Custom M1911" Airsoft Gun - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:SAProTac.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Airsoft replica of a Springfield Armory Loaded - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:Baby1.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Airsoft WE HiCapa 5.1 Full Metal Dragon Custom M1911 (Type B) Black Model with blue LED lights in the grip - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Detonics CombatMaster M1911 airsoft.jpg|450px|thumb|none|WE "Caspian Arms" M1911 replica of a Detonics CombatMaster M1911 or a Colt Officer's ACP - .45ACP]]
[[Image:Colt M1911.jpg|450px|thumb|none|Yu Teng 'YT385' replica of the original Colt M1911A1 model - .45ACP]]

===Other Replicas===
[[Image:Snake_.45.JPG|thumb|none|450px|CGI rendering of the Springfield Operator from the game [[Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots]] - .45 ACP]]

===Other Variants===
[[File:M1911A1PreWar.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Detailed screenshot of prewar M1911A1]]
[[Image:Kimber_Ultra_Crimson_Carry_II.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Kimber Ultra Carry Crimson II - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Kongsberg M1914.JPG|thumb|450px|none|Kongsberg M1914 - .45 ACP. The Kongsberg M/1914 is a Colt M1911 pistol produced under license by the Norwegian factory Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk, with a minor modification to the slide stop and stock.]]
[[Image:.38Super1911MachinePistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The real-life Dillinger's .38 Super M1911A1 Machine Pistol, for comparison purposes.]]
[[Image:SPRINGFIELD ARMORY 1911 PISTOL.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory M1911A1 mil-spec stainless - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:SpringfieldArmoryM1911A1stainless.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory M1911A1 "Mil-Spec" - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:ED 45.jpg|thumb|none|450px|AMT Hardballer Longslide with laserlock sight as used in the film ''[[The Terminator]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:AMT_Hardballer_Hitman_Replica.jpg|390px|thumb|none|A near-perfect, firing, replica of the "Silverballers" from the Hitman series.]]

[[Image:MilSpec-1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory Mil-spec M1911A1 - .45 ACP. This was one of the most commonly seen .45s used by LAPD SWAT before the Kimber Custom TLE II.]]
[[Image:0862731R.jpg|thumb|none|450px|M1911A1 Commercial (Same marks of the movie's pistol) - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:PC9111.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory Professional 1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1ithaca.jpg|thumb|none|450px|World War II Ithaca made M1911A1 with light grey finish - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:PublicEnemies1.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Pre-War Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP used on ''[[Public Enemies]]'' (2009)]]
[[Image:SW1911pd.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911PD Tactical Rail - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:1911 Longslide.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP. This model is very similar to the one in the episode on the ''[[Miami Vice (TV Series)]]''.]]
[[Image:Colt45.jpg|thumb|none|450px|M1911A1 .45 ACP with Pachymar grips]]
[[Image:Taurus PT1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Taurus PT1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Bruni8mm.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Bruni M1911A1-style blank firing stage prop - 8mm blank.]]
[[Image:Para1911G.I..jpg|thumb|none|450px|Para 1911 G.I. Expert - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:SA_loaded_m1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory Loaded M1911A1 - .45 ACP similar to the one used by Sydney Bristow from ''[[Alias]]''.]]
[[Image:Peter-1-5006-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Federal Ordnance PSP-07 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:TIKI.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Strayer Voight Infinity TIKI - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:CustomM1911A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom Colt Series 80 M1911A1 pistol similair to one in the film ''[[Street Kings]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:LaserAimSeriesIIIPistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|LaserAim Series III Pistol - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:KimberUltraRaptor.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Kimber Stainless Ultra Raptor - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Para645LDA.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Para-Ordnance 6.45 LDA with spare magazines - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:ColtDefenderRIGHT83.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Defender - .45 ACP was similar to the one used in the game ''[[Uncharted 2: Among Thieves]]''.]]
[[Image:GM45M1911A1-3.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Hybrid 1911 "Gladys" fitted with a nickel plated three cut compensator - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Delta 001.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Delta Elite - 10mm Auto]]
[[Image:SM178017.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911 Pro Series - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:SW108282.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:KimberWarrior.jpg|450px|thumb|none|Kimber Warrior - .45 ACP like the one in the show ''[[24 - Season 8|24]]''.]]
[[Image:FLX 2.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Nighthawk FLX - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Triple_Tap_IMM_Open_pistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|This SVI 1911 - .45 ACP is almost exactly like the one used in the film ''[[Triple Tap]]''. The description on the website reads, "IMM Open pistol made of carbon steel with Titanium compensator." (Picture supplied by sviguns.com)]]
[[Image:NiteTac.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Para-Ordnance Nite-Tac - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:1911WideSpur.png|thumb|none|450px|Springfield GI 1911 A1 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:ColtM1991A1L.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt M1991A1 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:The Veteran Colt 1991A1 Series 80.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt M1991A1 Series 80 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1USAF.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Black Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Springfield_ultra_compact.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Springfield Armory Ultra Compact - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:PX9105MLP.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory Loaded MC Operator - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Springfield Armory 1911 Lightweight Operator.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Springfield Armory 1911 Lightweight Operator - .45 ACP]]
[[image:Razorcat.jpg|thumb|none|401px|Limcat Custom 2011 RazorCat - .45 ACP]]
[[File:Sight-Tracker.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Strayer Voigt Infinity Sight Tracker - .40 S&W. This is one of 10 pistols custom made by SVI for the television show ''[[Top Shot - Season 3|Top Shot]]''.]]
[[File:Para P14 Limited.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Para Ordnance P14 Limited, early model with vertical slide serrations - .45 ACP]]

==Video game appearances of this pistol series==

Why is it that the "Video Game appearances" tables have a column named "Passwords"? I don't think it's for passwords to unlock them, because to my knowledge very few video games actually have a password system to unlock weapons. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a "Notes" after the "Mods" section where certain pertinent but miscellaneous information can be written, such as what copyright-infringement-avoiding name it goes under in the game, or whether it is chambered in a non-standard caliber?

I'd like this cleared up. Oh, and someone needs to include a note saying that "mods" is short for "modifications/customizations for the weapon," not "downloadable modifications to the game itself."--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 06:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

:I agree. Frankly I think both the "Mods" and "Passwords" sections can go, since the latter is pointless and the former's purpose can be adequately served by "Notes". --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 15:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

==Colt Government Model Section==
With regard to the following sentence:

''"Aside from Colt selling the M1911A1 to the US military, the gun was also sold under the name "Colt Government Model" to the civilian market, and called the "Pre-Series 70" guns today."''

First, the Colt Government Model was introduced in 1912, and as such, it was originally in the M1911 configuration. When the U.S. Military switched to the M1911A1 configuration in the mid 1920s, Colt began manufacturing their Government Models in the M1911A1 configuration as well. So early Government Models parallel the military's M1911 configuration, while later Government Models (after the mid 1920s) parallel the military's M1911A1 configuration. Additionally, not only pre-Series 70 guns are Government Models. Series 70 and Series 80 guns are both Government Models. In fact, Colt still makes the Government Model to this day in various configurations.

With regard to the following sentence:

''"For IMFDB purposes, this can also be referred to as an M1911A1. In this manner, there is no need to list film, television, anime, video games in this section."''

It is sloppy to refer to a Colt Government Model as an M1911A1. "M1911A1" is the U.S. Military designation for a particular type of gun, and most of them were not even made by Colt (Remington Rand [the typewriter company] made most of them). I can see referring to a gun as an "M1911 type" or "M1911A1 type" if the manufacturer can't be determined, but when you simply type "M1911" or "M1911A1" you are referring to a U.S. Military contract pistol.

On top of that, the pictured gun in the Colt Government Model section is not even a "Pre-Series 70", it is a pre-enhanced Series 80 Government Model.

--[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 21:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

:So it's like how we don't call it the Beretta M9, we call it the Beretta 92FS. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 03:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

::With the M9 vs. 92FS situation, it is next to impossible to tell the difference between the two onscreen, unless there is a closeup allowing one to read the markings. In such cases I would say, if a civilian character is using the gun, it is probably intended to be a 92F or 92FS. If a military character is using it, it is probably intended to be an M9, regardless of what the actual prop is. I would assume that most—if not all—movie and TV props are actually 92Fs or 92FSs, because I don't believe that actual M9s have ever been made available for civilian sale.

::With the M1911 or M1911A1 vs. the Colt Government Model (or other brands of 1911-type guns), it is usually possible to tell the difference onscreen without being able to read the markings. For example, the Colt Government Model does not have a lanyard loop. Most M1911A1s were parkerized, while no Government Models were parkerized. When dealing with more modern Government Models, there are even more differences. For example, starting in 1950, Government Models started coming with a full-shelf thumb safety; while all M1911[A1]s had partial-shelf thumb safeties. Also at this time, Government Models started being given a finish with polished flats and matte radiuses, while blued and Du-Lite (similar to bluing in appearance) M1911A1s had polished radiuses and brushed flats or entirely polished (depending on the manufacturer and/or time of manufacture); and of course the more common parkerized M1911A1s were simply all matte.

::Additionally, the newer Government Models as mentioned above have narrow hammers with polished sides left "in the white", and polished chamber hoods also left "in the white". Many M1911A1s had wide-spur hammers, and the ones that had narrow hammers were fully finished (no polished "in the white" sides) and they all had fully blued barrels, including the otherwise parkerized ones (no polished "in the white" chamber hoods).

::Most of the Government Models you see onscreen from the early 70s to the mid-to-late '80s were actually 9mm versions, though they were usually representing a "forty-five" onscreen. This had to do with reliable functioning with readily available 9mm blanks. Colt introduced the 9mm version of the Government Model when they introduced the Series 70 in the early 1970s, and the 9mm version of the CGM had a lowered ejection port (while the .45 ACP version still had the standard military style ejection port). With the introduction of the Series 80 Government Model in 1983, the .45 ACP version also got a lowered ejection port. No M1911[A1] had a lowered ejection port.

::I'll give an example. In the show Magnum, P.I., his gun is blued with polished flats and matte radiuses; polished "in the white" chamber hood and hammer sides, and a lowered ejection port. It is clear from looking that the gun is a Series 70 Colt Government Model chambered for 9mm (though it was always addressed as a "forty-five" in the show's dialogue); and is definitely not an M1911A1. Recently the gun came up for auction and is now in the NRA's National Firearms Museum, and it has been confirmed that that is exactly what the main prop gun was (serial # 70L33101 to be exact).

::--[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 21:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

==Primary M1911 description==
Who wrote this? The historical paragraph (on the background of the M1911) implies that the M1911 was replaced by the U.S. Military AFTER Operation Desert Storm (1991) which is not true. The Beretta M92 (M9) was already approved and adopted by 1985.

Well for a period of time both the 1911 and M9 were in use by the U.S. military,therefore just because the M9 was in service does'nt mean it replaced the 1911 by that time, and for awhile soldiers actualy got to choose which weapon they prefered :o [[User:Leadback|Leadback]]
======================================
The Beretta M9 officially replaced the M1911 in 1985. They still used the M1911, but they weren't buying anymore. They simply phased them out over the years. Now there are some units in the US military that still use the M1911. The M9 is really only used by conventional military nowadays. For example, the Navy SEALs don't even use the M9 or M1911 anymore. They have the H&K MK23 Mod 0. Which is a purpose-built USP .45. I've even heard of some SEALs using the Ruger Mk. II. It's a .22 target pistol with an integrated silencer on it.

Soldiers were never given the choice to choose. They were given the M9, but many didn't like it. It was big, many could not shoot it accurately, and lots contested the effectiveness of the 9x19 round. Lots of people I work with were in the military around the time of the switch, were given the M9, hated it, and decided just to keep carrying the M1911. It wasn't until they were given an official order that they were forced to carry the M9. And even there, there were times when they went back to the M1911s the military had stored up. For example, out in the deserts. The magazines the military bought were junk, got sand in them, and jammed. The M1911 functioned perfectly. Same thing is happening over there now.

wrong. Special Operations soldiers are given their choice of a sidearm( and assault rifle). 1stSFOD-D has been using 1911s since foundation. infact Larry Vickers (Nighthawk Customs) has worked very closely with Delta Force. Nighthawk 1911s are being used by Delta. 2- the Seals in Vietnam started out with the Ruger Mk II Suppressed. and know one still used the HK MK23. it was fazed out years ago because of how bulky it is. SEALs use the Sig Sauer P226 or USPs. but that is still a generalization. because all SOF have a choice in sidearm [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==Para-Ordance==
Shouldnt these guns get their own page? Sure they are a 1911 varients, but their made by a totally different company.[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]] 00:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
:Yeah, but they're 1911 variants. This is the M1911 pistol series page, and they are 1911s. That's why they are on here. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::I would prefer the Para Ordnance series of pistols have their own page due PRIMARILY to the fact that the Paras have a whole slew of different calibers that other M1911 makes and models don't have [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

What calibers does para have that other 1911 manufactures do not have?--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 01:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

On the main page, the LDA entry claims that some of the LDA models were made DA/SA with an exposed hammer, but that isnt true is it? I thought all the LDA were Double Action Only, with the exposed hammer simply for aesthetic reasons? -MissySummers-

== The M in the page title ==

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the M in the page title incorrect? These are Colt 1911s (or 1911a1s, etc.), not Colt M1911s, unless referred to by US military nomenclature, just the same way that a Beretta 92f is an M9 only to the US Army and a SIG Sauer P228 is an M11 only in USAF terms. Just because it's the model of 1911 doesn't make it an M1911, any more than a '67 Shelby GT500 is an M67 Shelby GT500.[[User:YourMessageHere|YourMessageHere]] 08:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
::No. The Colt pistol was formally adopted by the Army on March 29, 1911, thus gaining its designation, M1911 (Model of 1911). Only examples or prototypes prior to the year 1911 would NOT have the M designation (which is extremely rare). Between the years of 1907 and 1910 the Colt pistol was constantly being modified and re-designed to win the Army's trials for adoption of a new handgun. The gun was only mass produced AFTER winning the Army's pistol trials. The Beretta 92FS was already famous world wide and was commercially available as the 92F/FS for YEARS before the Army adopted it. Every 1911 design came AFTER the M1911 (aka Model of 1911) so it is the correct nomenclature. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Using "1911" to refer to any and all pistols based on the M1911 design has only been popular for about fifteen years. Prior to that, the vast majority of such pistols were Colts, and were usually called "Colt .45s", even if they were pistols made by wartime contractors like Remington Rand. Those commercial guns that weren't made by Colt, as made by Vega, Randall, Federal Ordnance, Essex, etc., were called "clones", as they were generally close copies of the Colt. When makers started adding previously "custom" features to production-line guns, and branching into areas that Colt hadn't, a new name was needed, and "1911" became popular. The problem that I have with the various names on the site is the mixing of military and commercial designations; a gun cannot be a "M1911A1 Government Model", as M1911A1 is a military designation, and Government Model is what Colt has always called the civilian version of the "M" military pistols. Colt has made M1911s (1912-circa 1924), M1911A1s (circa 1926-1945), and Government Models (1912-date), but you can't mix or combine those names without confusing the issue.

==Caliber question==
I thought I would ask permission before making this change considering how important this article is: in the specifications category the caliber is listed solely as .45 ACP. I was wondering whether or not that should be changed to include .380 ACP, .38 Super, 9mm, and .40 S&W?
:-[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

No, since the ORIGINAL Colt M1911 is .45 ACP Caliber, it should stay like that, since copies of the M1911 maybe have different calibers those should be put on the "copy" section

Agreed --[[PunisherDave]]

==M1991 Series==
I was wondering: what exactly is the difference between the 1911 series and the 1991 series? -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 17:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Colt introduced (announced) the M1991A1 in 1991 as a sort of economy version of the Government Model, resembling the military M1911A1, and with the serial numbers picking up where the military gun left off after WWII. The gun was made in that form until about 2003, at which time the finish was changed to polished blue rather than matte blue, and the black rubber grips replaced with checkered wood.
:I heard a guy explain on youtube that 1991 got "extra safety feature" which blocked firing pin movement entirely when trigger was not pressed; allegedly this modification appeared after a incident involving police officer accidentally killing suspect while snapping him with the gun. However, this modification somehow managed to eject firing pin from the slide during decocking so only few people liked it --[[User:Cover72|Cover72]] 21:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
::The YouTube guy doesn't know what he's talking about. The Colt M1991A1 did have the Series 80 firing pin safety, but this was introduced on all Colt Government Models in the early 1980s when the Series 80 version replaced the Series 70. The modification has never caused any problems, aside from perhaps complicating the trigger pull slightly, making it a little more difficult to achieve a good "trigger job". Also, the Series 80 parts are easily removed (and normally a few other minor things are done), and the gun will function just fine, in the same manner as a pre-Series 80 gun. The Series 80 firing pin safety wasn't prompted by any specific accidental police shooting. The only thing a non-Series 80 1911-type gun can accidentally shoot due to the lack of a firing pin safety is the ground. In other words, if a non-Series 80 1911-type gun is dropped from a significantly high height (6 feet or so I believe) directly onto its muzzle, the firing pin can continue forward with enough inertia to dent the primer, thus firing the gun (into the ground of course).

::It is too bad that Colt went to the trouble of designing the Series 80 modifications back in the early '80s, because the remote risk of accidental discharge as I described above is more easily solved by simply using a titanium firing pin (rather than the usual steel firing pin) along with a different weight firing pin spring. Since the titanium firing pin weighs less than a steel one, it has less inertia, and a 1911 so-equipped will pass the drop test just fine. In fact, Colt now uses titanium firing pins on their Series 70 Government Models that they started reissuing several years ago. If Colt had thought of the titanium firing pin idea back in the early '80s, they wouldn't have had to make any actual changes to the legendary 1911 design (changes which annoyed a lot of people), and they might not have lost so much of the 1911 market.

::Now, about the M1991A1: it went through a few different incarnations, but it originally was simply an economy version of the Series 80 Colt Government Model. Instead of the polished blue finish of the Government Model (polished flats and matte radiuses), it had an all-matte blue finish. It also had really cheap plastic grips that didn't fit well (they fell short of the bottom of the grip frame by about 3/16"). It also had a big, ugly rollmark on the slide, with "M1991A1" emblazoned in huge block letters. Finally, it came with a flat mainspring housing and a long trigger (both plastic), which was like the original M1911 (pre-M1911A1), which was ironic considering it was named M1991'''A1'''. --[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 09:13, 17 December 2011 (CST)

==Terminator 2==
It was my understanding that the 1911 used in the film was a custom Colt frame with a fitted Detonic slide. Was it a combatmaster slide? [[Special:Contributions/65.29.239.251|65.29.239.251]] 09:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

== blank firers / K911 ==

I've added/moved blank firing Kimar 911 to the bottom of page as told by MoviePropMaster2008 ''("Non-firing replicas of the M1911 belong on the bottom of the M1911 page. Thanks.")'' 
But I wonder, shouldn't there be an entire sub-category of blank firers (with K911 being sub-section of this) in order to distinguish blanks from the real ones? It ''might'' look confusing this way. And also, I made multiple photos of K911 for what I thought would be it's page here including disassembled weapon photo, so perhaps these unused ones might be deleted? --[[User:Cover72|Cover72]] 21:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==Strayer Voigt Infinity ==
This gun is using a frame from STI, they call that frame the 2011, it's double stacked. And is made from steel and polymer.

:are Strayer Voigt Infinity custom built guns? or just have alot of models? Rex095

The modular frames look exactly like those used by STI. http://www.sviguns.com
Don't know if they collaborate or something. They (SVI) have more optional grips than STI.

Both companies reside in Texas.
::Read up: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strayer_Voigt_Inc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strayer_Voigt_Inc]

Does anyone know the mag cap for a Strayer Voigt Infinity in 45acp? - captain snikt

==Police service pistols==

Before the 90s were American Police ever issued the M1911, or were they're only given to the FBI and SWAT team?

- Some regular state/county/municipal departments might have used a 1911 as a standard duty-weapon before semiautos came into heavy use following the eighties, but I imagine that's a very low number. I certainly don't know of any specific departments myself offhand. Not that many departments use 'em much today. As a 1911 generally was considered a large pistol with a fairly powerful round it wasn't considered easy to use and handle by regular officers. Same general reason why departments in older times stuck with .38s over .357s - The .357 was generally considered too powerful for standard-duty officers. As such, most police departments used 9mms when they first went to automatics in the eighties as there were few semiauto calibers with lower recoil impulse and power at the time than .45ACP.

Some other police units might have used 1911s when it suited them - Homicide detectives in our county's police dept. carried 1911 type pistols, though I don't think that was the county's standard sidearm for uniformed officers. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 02:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

:There's another reason, besides caliber, that the 1911 wouldn't have been too popular in the old days - it's a single-action. Before DA-only became more acceptable (i.e. Glocks), most LE departments preferred handguns that were SA/DA. Almost all police revolvers used prior to the 1980s, like the S&W Model 15 and 19, or the Colt Python, were single- or double-action. This bias continued into the 1980s when a lot of departments started adopting the Beretta 92F and the 3rd Generation Smith & Wesson autos. Now that Glocks have been around long enough, DA-only is finally becoming the standard. But SA-only is pretty much a no-go to any LE agency, and that's the way it was even before the 1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 02:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't Glocks SA-only? The firing pin is cocked by cambering a round?

Would a Smith and Wesson Model 39 or 639 or Colt Commander be more acceptable for police use back then?

- To MT, that's a good point as well. SA weapons do require a lot of training and familiarity to operate effectively and safely, and as such, again, weren't considered practical for regular police officers either. Very good to point out. If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the main reasons why the 1911 fell out of favor in the Armed Forces as well - the fact they required extensive training and familiarity to use and carry safely. DA weapons are easier to train and operate with. Very true.

As for the Glock question, no, Glocks are actually DA only.

As for actions - In a Single-Action (SA) firearm, the hammer must be manually cocked to a firing position prior to pulling the trigger. Just like revolvers of the old west. Double action firearms will both cock and release the hammer when the trigger is pulled. SA/DA firearms use double-action by default, but feature an externally accessible hammer to allow single-action style firing (by cocking the hammer back and then pulling the trigger). Modern revolvers are perhaps the simplest examples of this.

DAO (Double-Action-Only) firearms only fire by double-action as they don't have an accessible hammer for single-action cocking. Such as Glock and various other semiauto pistols.

So if you have empty casing in the chamber, an pull the trigger several times, you would hear a loud click every time because the firing pin would be cocked every time? That's what happens in a DAO gun. If not, it's a SAO.

And on the last question, yes the Smith 39/59 pistols were used by police departments back then. Illinois State Police used the 59 back in the 60s/70s if I remember my Jane's Gun Recognition book correctly. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 05:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Correction, Glocks are not DAO. They fire from a half-cocked position. When you dry fire the gun, the hammer falls and must be recocked by racking the slide, it does not cock by double action springs. That's why the have a slightly heavy trigger pull, they are half cocked, and are brought to full cock and dropped by pulling the trigger. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::: Bah, how did I miss that.. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

i thought glocks were striker-fired?

I think I read that Tacoma, WA police carry 1911s as standard issue service weapons.

I read on another forum that the LAPD authorises 1911 varients to officers, however they have to go through an intense training program to be authorised for it and they have to re-qualify ever few months too. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 16:30, 28 March 2011 (CDT)

Yes. A Glock is a "striker-fired" weapon so technically it is not either double action or single action because a glock doesnt have a hammer but instead releases the firing pin inside the slide. However if you were going to have to compare it, Single Action would be the closest term. Because the firing pin is "cocked" when the slide is racked and then the trigger only releases it and firing the round. Additionally a Glock does not qualify as a double action because it in no way cocks anything with the trigger. The trigger on a Glock can not be pulled again without cycling the weapon, whereas on a gun that is a double action the trigger can be pulled and the hammer actuated multiple times without cycling the weapon. -[[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]

==Versus modern pistols==

One thing I've noticed about this pistol is that almost everyone loves it, as though it were the best, most versatile handgun ever made. But really, what makes this thing, almost 100 years old now, any better than any modern pistols? Really, modern pistols can fire the same rounds, bigger clips, better design, picatinny rails, etc.--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 21:54, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Familiarity, accuracy, ease of getting parts, feel, simplicity (yes I know there are designs that are simpler, but for what this pistol is, it is simple), many different makes and models of the 1911, modularity, traditionalism. There are many makes and models of the 1911 style that have the same features as many modern "wonder guns". Want more ammo? Get a Para Ord P14, ditto for DA, and DA/SA. Want a 9mm/ 10mm/ etc? there are many types of 1911 platform pistols ranging from .22lr to .44 Magnum. A quote I heard about the 1911 a few years ago is "It's like a '32 Ford Hotrod, its cheap, reliable, powerful, fun, and is easy to make it your own. Just don't think you'll get much mileage out of a tank of gas." Now tell me can you put custom grips, barrels, sights, slides, frames, triggers, hammers, finishes, safeties, slide releases magazines, etc etc etc on a Glock, XD, SIG, Beretta, etc? Maby a few of those, but at what price, and can you do it all? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

: ''Really, modern pistols can fire the same rounds, bigger clips, better design, picatinny rails, etc.''

- Funny, several pistols I can think of that fit that criteria are little more than updated 1911 pistols. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

"bigger clips"
: Fail. I believe you meant Magazines. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 21:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
ya Unless your talkin about a Mauser broomhandle (which you're not) I would prefer if you said magazine instead of clip

::Actually, that's another thing I'm questioning. Really, what is the difference between the detaachable box magazines and clips? I mean, clips hold bullets for easy loading, right? SO wouldn't modern detachable magazines be classified as clips too?--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 20:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Simplest way I can put this - a clip loads a magazine. The magazine is what the gun feeds from - NOT THE CLIP. It just so happens that on some guns, the magazine is affixed to the weapon (the M1 Garand and the Mauser, for example). Thus, users have to use clips to reload them. On, say, a M1911 or an M16, the magazine falls out, thus allowing the user to swap in a new one when needed. A magazine could hold a clip, if so designed...but that particular road is one-way only. --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 20:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

::The "clip vs. magazine" distinction is something that really needs to be clarified, and one of the reasons why I asked for the "general information" section in the first place. Hopefully someone can make a good article there showing the various type of bullet clips and why they should not be confused with magazines. By the way, revolvers when not loaded manually use bullet clips. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

considering that this page is dedicated to the 1911 which is generally made in .45 does anyone else find it somewhat stupid that our military and most police departments are using handguns that have been known for their lack of stopping power. there are better handguns out there that hold a generous amount of .45 ammunition anyway. for example the Nighthawk FLX holds 12-14. the HK USP/HK45, and the Infinity handgun line are double stacked. and even if most .45s hold 7-10 isnt that enough in most scenarios. 7 .45 slugs does the work of at least 20. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Its the same reason that police used the .38 Special for so many years even after the .357 came out. Politics, logistics, ability to handle the round, etc etc... -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

:With regard to caliber, police need rounds that can penetrate car bodies, doors, walls, etc. .45 rounds are not known for penetration. Also, while the .45 round is more effective against soft tissue than 9mm and .40 S&W rounds, anyone who tries to claim that 7 .45 rounds can do the work of 20 9mm or .40 rounds is completely dillusional. Watch ballistic test videos. A .45 slug entering the body does more damage than a 9mm round entering the body. If you try to claim that one .45 wound is more damaging than 2 9mm wounds with any decent grouping than you clearly have no understanding of physics or human anatomy.

But the fact remains with a 9mm you dont want him dead in the half hour it will take for him to bleed out. you want him dead NOW. with the .45 hes going to feel it. he aint gunna get back up. with the 9mm he might just keep firing.
:Depending on shot placement. A 9mm slug to the heart or any of the major arteries surrounding it will cause death within several seconds. The same is true of a shot to most areas of the skull. .45 does have increased lethality over 9mm, but that degree of superiority has been greatly exaggerated.

Yeah but a 9mm can pass through a person and keep going, a .45 doesn't. I would imagine you wouldn't want those two 9mm rounds going through a person and hitting an innocent bystander. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 16:28, 28 March 2011 (CDT)

It all really comes down to preference. Honestly a body shot with any round is not guaranteed to kill or stop anyone. The only thing guaranteed to immediately incapacitate someone is to severing the brain from the rest of the body. Recoil is also a big factor. If you cant shoot it it doesnt matter what you carry. People and police departments have to find the weapon that will work best for them. Personally I like the .45 and I own a 1911. The most important feature on the 1911 for me is its thinness with the single stack mag. Honestly I think my Sig 229 .40 kicks more violently and is harder to shoot than my .45. I know a lot of people who do not like the .45 and much prefer their 9mm because they are better with it. -[[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]

Modern 9mm JHP and .45 ACP JHP in ballestic gel create near equal wounds. I can post reference links if anyone wants them. The whole thing about magazine capacity isn't really a problem as 99% of the time, only three shots are fired at most. Even with police, most of the time, no more than 3 rounds are fired.

Carry what guns suits you best, whether its a .22LR or its a .45 ACP. Once I turn 21, I plan on getting a SIG 1911 with a 4" barrel in .45 ACP but for the time being, I have to stick with my XD40.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 22:01, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

==Variants NOT listed with any film/TV/game appearances==

- I've taken it upon myself to remove several listed variants that had no list of anything that they've appeared in. Guns posted that didn't say they were in anything - Not one movie, TV show episode, video game, nothing. A couple of which I don't think have appeared on anything and seem to have been put up just for the hell of it.

Now I know we have a lot of 1911 variants on the page, but the page is not intended to show/describe ''every'' variant of 1911 ever made, but only those ''that have actually appeared in something'', as quoted by some of the admins. I just find it a bit annoying to have to scroll down the page and see numerous 1911 pistols that have nothing listed under them (Again, with some looking like they were just added for the sake of being there), and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Anyway, clearing said sections out now. If it seems like an unusual or otherwise noteworthy variant, I'll add it to the 'additional variants' section below. Bottom-line, if it ain't actually been in anything, ''don't add it'', no matter how cool it is or whatever. If it has been in something, then next time, don't half-ass - If you're going to bother with the effort of putting it up in the first place, do it 100% and say what it's appeared in. Thanks. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

==Kimber==
in the Kimber Warrior section it is listed as "Warrior II", which is wrong, the Warrior is built to full military specs and never got the "II" desinated saftey system...so it is just a Warrior because kimber only puts the II on the models they put their special saftey on.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==Controversy igniter==
I am fully aware that what I am about to say will probably ignite the greatest firestorm of controversy this site has seen in a while. I have fired several 1911 pistols and found them to be a good, solid design. That said, it doesn’t change the fact that I think this is undoubtedly the most overrated firearm in history. Throughout the entire gun community there is the consensus that this is the absolute greatest thing ever conceived by the mind of man and anyone who says anything different is a blasphemer. Again, I am not saying it is a bad pistol, I just don’t think it is best (I won’t say what my top choice is for fear of causing even more indignation to come my way). Though even if it were the undisputed best pistol design around, I still don’t think it would be so significantly greater than other designs as to warrant being the object of the worship and masturbatory fantasies of every gun enthusiast in the world as it currently is. That’s my two cents, I await the fallout.

:I smell a troll.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 17:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd say he's not because he seems to explain his point. At least his reasoning isn't 'this gun sukzz' [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 17:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

:My main reasoning is that the weapons are predominately single action only, which necessitates that they either be carried condition three (which makes the pistol slow to bring into action), or condition one (which many consider unsafe). The double/single action and double action only systems have become omnipresent in most modern combat pistols for good reason. Additionally, while a generally reliable design, many other pistols have surpassed 1911 models in ruggedness and reliability. Another thing that I find odd is the vast variety of weapons that are claimed to be “1911s.” For instance, I have seen subcompact, double action only, double-column “1911s” in many calibers other than .45acp. At this point the only common feature between these weapons and the original Colt 1911 design are a loose aesthetic resemblance. The internal mechanisms maybe similar as well, but many other pistols share a far greater functional similarity to 1911s yet do not bear the moniker. At what point does a gun cease being a “1911” and become something simply trying to cash in on a famous name sake?

It is human nature to emulate successful designs in the hopes of getting a piece of that pie, especially in the modern business world. Less-refined terms for this behaviour include "jumping on the bandwagon" or "riding a gravy train." It's nothing new now in the firearms industry, what with all the AR-15 variants, Glock knock-offs, and (of course) countless "1911-type" pistols around. What defines a "1911-type" pistol is really matter of personal preference.

I would, however, agree that it's foolish to fetishize a type of firearm or a firearms manufacturer just because of its track record or Public Relations budget. There is no such thing as the "perfect" weapon in the real world--every design involves tradeoffs, and that's even before you include the "human factor." Designs can always be improved. What matters most is what you can use the most effectively in a consistent manner. And if you can't, then you ought to get yourself another weapon or train more.

Speaking of "best pistol ever," I remember how H&K tried to label their 4.6x30mm pistol as "the Ultimate Combat Pistol," but it got unceremoniously cancelled, because of "inadequate ballistics in a handgun format." So much for "Ultimate Combat Pistol"--now it joins the legions of "Useless Cancelled Pistols" that came before it. Perhaps it could have had a chance if it were a machine pistol instead, dubbed the "MP7 UltraComPact," in essence an MP7 PDW in handgun format. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

:What I would like to know is what is it about the 1911 that supposedly makes it the best. I've heard people say it is the greatest pistol ever for more than a decade yet never explain what ''specific'' features or advantages it has that make it so good.

You should head on over to the forum and ask that question: "What makes the M1911 pistol so great compared to everything else, and when does an M1911 stop being one and start being a pistol just pretending to be one?" I'm sure there are more people there who could answer your questions better than what you could get here. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

What makes the 1911 the "best"? There are many reasons for the following it has. I am of course referring to the original 1911A1 model, not the double stack nor double action variants. For one, the single action trigger is extremely easy to train with and use by a lot of people. Second, it has redundant safety systems in place. Even with the manual safety off, it will not fire unless the grip safety is fully pressed, though this safety system is seen by a few as a con of the design. Third, it utilized a single stack design. That coupled with the angle of the grip is a very comfortable for a majority of the people. The degree of the grip angle was chosen because, for a lot of people, it is a natural point meaning that one could close ones eyes and bring the pistol up and have it pointing directly at the target. Fourth, it fired the .45 ACP. The .45ACP is a proven manstopper especially when compared to the other rounds utilized at the time of its adoption and until the development of reliable hollow point designs. Lastly, I would argue that compared to many other designs, such as the Mauser C96, Luger,etc..., the 1911 was easily field strip as the pieces of the pistol were designed to aid in the stripping down of the firearm. Compared to todays plethora of firearms, the 1911 is no longer the only pistol to chamber effective rounds or reliability. Why is it still popular then? Because some people still favor the 1911 design. Overrated, I don't think so. There is a reason why it is still chosen over other designs. Is it the end-all-be-all of pistol design? No, I would say it isn't. Anyway, from everything I've read, personal experience, and research that is what I have come up with. [[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 21:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Everything you have described establishes that the gun is a good design, perhaps the best gun around when it first came out, but does not explain it's enduring following. The grip may be confortable for many people, but that is far too subjective to explain why so many people (with so many different hand sizes) still favor this gun. It's single stack magazine make it a confortable target and practical concealed carry weapon, but the limited capacity it offers can be a death trap in a combat weapon (which many still claim the 1911 is the quintessential example of). The .45 ACP is a great round against soft targets, but does not offer very good penetration or long distance acuracy. And with the isistance on reliable "Soldier Proof" weapons in most of today's militaries, many modern pistols are more reliable and easier to strip than the original 1911s. I don't deny that the 1911 was most likely the best pistol in the world when it came out and for a few decades after, but I don't think it still warrents that praise anymore, yet almost every gun Television show, magazine, website, etc. seems to constantly proclaim its supremacy.

To answer your first point. The single stack, thin handgrip is easily usable by people of differing handtypes. You say its subjective but isn't how something feels in someones hand subjective? For example, the M9/Beretta 92FS has a thick grip. Bigger hands have no problem with the grip but smaller hands do. The slim 1911 grip can be used by big hands or little hands. The grip angle is something else that many people find comfortable. You second point that you made was the single stack "death trap". You say that the single stack is a liability. But capacity isn't everything. 7+ rounds of .45 ACP is good. The .45ACP has a well known reputation for one shot stops. The 9mm of the Beretta 92 or Glock 17 does not have that reputation. As for the .45ACP, it is not meant to penetrate body armor, neither is the standard 9mm, but it is accurate over long distances. There are very few pistol rounds that are meant to penetrate body armor of vehicle armor, which is what I think that you are getting at. If you draw a pistol in a combat zone, you are already in deep trouble or in a position where a high capacity is not needed, i.e. MP's. Anyway, a pistol is not meant to be accurate at long distances so the point is moot. As for the "Soldier Proof" weapons, that is just a cheap way out of training soldiers correctly, as they did with the A2 model of the M16. A milspec 1911 is just as reliable as newer designs. One such argument is that the 1911 was only tested for 6000 rounds with no failure before cleaning while Glock for example is tested at 30,000 rounds. What soldier won't clean his sidearm after 6000 rounds? What battle involves firing 6000 rounds out of a pistol? If you can't see why the 1911 design is praised and still being used then I can't help any further. The 1911 design has many good points that apparently many people still find better than other designs, and many still find the 1911 a proven and effective design.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 22:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Apparently I wasn't clear when I rebutted you last time. The single stack is confortable for people with small hands yes. However, people with larger hands, and even some small handed people, have no problem with thicker grips and so the capacity limiting single stack serves no purpose. The grip angle is a completely subjective feature and so it is imposible to argue that one style is better than another. What matters more is simply what one is used to. You are right that 7-9 rounds of ammunition and 6000 rounds before cleaning is more than adequate for most applications, however my point wasn't that the 1911 is bad (it is a good weapon) but simply that there are better guns out their. 7 or 8 rounds may be enough for most encounters, but having 12-17 rounds and being able to fire 30,000+ rounds before cleaning is an advantage, whether or not one will utalize those features often. Also, when I referenced penetration I had things like doors, walls, and car bodies in mind, not armor. The .38 Super cartridge was specifically developed because the .45 could not penetrate car bodies effectively. Your previous post all focuses on arguing that the 1911 is an ''adequate'' combat pistol which I completely agree with. My whole point is that the features you mentioned ''do not make it the best pistol around.'' When I first began this conversation I stated that the 1911 is not a bad gun, simply that with all the pistol designs that have emerged in the past century it is no longer the greatest pistol in the world, yet nearly everyone in the gun community (yourself clearly included) still claim it is for no other reason than people like its grip (which is subjective), its caliber (which is used in many much modern modern firearms), and its history (which can easily make it a favorite gun but can not be used as justification for it being the best).

::'''"You are right that 7-9 rounds of ammunition and 6000 rounds before cleaning is more than adequate for most applications"'''

::"Before cleaning"? What do you think; that it will malfunction on the 6001st round if you don't clean it? The gun is as dirty as it is going to get after a few hundred rounds. When you've fired a gun 6000 times in a row without cleaning and with no malfunctions, that means that when the gun finally does malfunction it won't be because it is dirty; it will most likely continue to function properly until something breaks.

::'''"but having 12-17 rounds and being able to fire 30,000+ rounds before cleaning is an advantage, whether or not one will utalize those features often."'''

::Just so you know, the M1911 didn't malfunction on the 6000th round. It didn't malfunction at all. They stopped after 6000 rounds because that is how many rounds they had decided beforehand would be adequate for a test. Any gun that can fire 6000 rounds without malfunctioning can most likely fire indefinitely without malfunctioning, until something breaks. And keep in mind that the M1911 did this 100 years ago, being built out of the relatively poor grades of steel of the day (steel was greatly improved after WWII, even though no U.S. military M1911 or M1911A1 ever got to take advantage of it, because none were bought after WWII). Also, those things you mentioned are ''potential'' advantages. A potential advantage that isn't used at all is not an actual advantage, obviously.

::30,000 rounds is overkill for a test. Most people will never fire anywhere near that many rounds through their handgun (especially without cleaning), and even if they did, who would want to trust their life to a gun that has 30,000 rounds worth of wear and tear on it? --[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 13:18, 17 December 2011 (CST)

You were arguing the design flaws but it is the design that is one of the big reasons it has such a following. Since you are arguing one view against the other. Why a lot of people think that it is the best. The design is one reason, history is another, the round it fires is yet another reason. I actually don't think it is the best I was merely stating the reasons that it is popular and why people say it is the best. I like the Beretta 92fs for its grip and certain design attributes and the Glock 21sf for different reasons. Would I object to using the 1911 in combat. No. Would I use the Beretta 92fs in combat with FMJ ammo? Not if I didn't have to. With HP ammo, I wouldn't hesitate to use the Beretta. But even your view of other designs being better is subjective. If a pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc...is reliable and fires a moderately effective round then it is a good design. What makes it the best is subjective as far as it goes. What one pistol may be best at is what makes it worst at something else. There is no way to objectively define the "best" just what is better than something else.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 00:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree. I don't have any gun in mind that I think is indisputably better than all others. The features I pointed out I did so to demonstrate that in certain aspects the 1911 is inferior to other disigns, not that said other designs are the perfect weapon. Every design is a give and take of different features. Because of this, my main complaint was a pervaisive belief that the 1911 is unquestioningly the greatest gun ever (I have heard that phrase Verbatim in many issues of Guns & Ammo). Is it better in some aspects than double-collumn, double-action 9mm pistols? Yes. Is it better across the board? Absolutly not. I apologize if at any point I have come across as confrontational, it is just that I have heard so many people assert the 1911's complete supremacy so many times that it has really gotten on my nerves and I wanted to know what others thought.

Google "1911"...then google any other gun...now tell me which one has the most varieties...which one has the most after market parts and pieces for the specialist. Which one has the most surplus parts. Its so popular and so famous because if you wanted to you could make one look like no other one or you could make it look like that one in your favorite movie. Not only that but all the diffrent calibers from 45cal to the awesome and unbeatable 10mm. Plus they are sexy as hell. To sum up you can basically have a beautiful, functional, all steel combat pistol in your choice of caliber and its going to feel like a dream in your hands.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 00:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

:The madness of crowds surely knows few bounds--just look at how the various bottled water companies manage to make a killing selling what is essentially tap water, because people will do often do things just because enough other people tell them it's a good idea. Then again, I suppose the "cult following" that some pistol-types have over others is due in part to the following facts:

:*Pistols are rarely if ever primary combat weapons anymore, with the exception of law enforcement.
:*Few people who routinely carry pistols have to regularly use them in gun battles against opponents who are earnestly trying to kill them.

:Therefore there aren't many occasions for most pistol-carriers to test their assumptions in the most revealing field of all--life-or-death situations. So depending on your circumstances you can go a lifetime without ever putting the hype in the harsh light of real return-fire. I'd bet on the M1911-type (the "pure" single-stack .45 ACP M1911s) pistols selling so much mostly because of its hype and history, and that it is, at its heart, a serviceable (though hardly optimal) weapon. Given how many clones there are, however, I really must wonder what would have happened had Colt become the sole copyright holder for this pistol type--would we see more innovation that way, or just countless clones of some other pistol type? Perhaps a more revealing, specific question would be "How does the M1911 platform compare to the Glock platform or CZ-75 platform?" That could work because all three are successful pistol types offered in multiple calibers, including 9x19mm, .45 ACP, and 10mm Auto.

:Bottom line? The "pure" M1911 works, but we can certainly do better. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

::Exactly

Ok, well answer me this then. Why if the 1911 is all hype and legend does MEUSOC still issue 1911s? Why does Delta give out a stipend to have an operator buy his own custom 1911? Why does the FBI HRT use 1911s? and LAPD SWAT? and so many other groups that use pistols? The reasons the wonder 9s came into popularity are lower recoil (marginal), size (marginal) higher capacity (less training in marksmanship), weight (long since gone by the wayside), to match ammo with other NATO countries (Military), and hype/ cool factor (civilian). The 1911 has served admirably (in one capacity or another) with few major changes to the platform for almost 100 years. The Beretta, Glock, CZ-75, etc. have been redesigned and "improved" since they came out just to try and match the 1911s in popularity, reliability, etc.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 17:30, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

:Sure thing. How many of these operators you mentioned fulfill the conditions I mentioned above, namely that they regularly use pistols as their primary combat weapons instead of SMGs/PDWs/Rifles and often engage in gunfights with earnest, aware opponents? And other combat platforms for the .45 ACP won out, such as the Mk. 23 SOCOM pistol which won out over Colt's version. The "improved" Beretta, Glock, CZ-75 you mentioned have done so to fit consumer demand and market competition, but national armed forces aren't that commercial and competitive most of the time because of how many contracts and vested interests are running the show. I simply said that the "Pure" M1911 platform works when used, but it can be improved, otherwise the Mk.23 SOCOM wouldn't have won the OHWS program. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 02:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

::A lot of Special Forces don't even use the Mk. 23 due to its bulky and awkward size. Many Navy SEALs opt to use 9mm SIG-Sauer Pistols

H&K won the competition because they strictly adhered to all of the requirements (some of which were asinine), and they put in the best bid. When USSOCOM received the Mk. 23 they got exactly what they asked for but not what they had actually wanted. The SEALS who used it complained about how it was too big, heavy, and its cons outweighed its pros. They tried to pawn them off on the ARMY but no one there would touch them, so most of them went back to H&K. As with all things military, big brass does not listen to the guys who actually have to use the equipment until its too late.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 06:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I would like to toss my thoughts into the mix. Being a Brit getting a hold of a real firearm is harder than getting away with stealing the Popes hat, but I am an avid airsofter and I have held and fired many different types of airsoft pistols ranging from HK USPs, to Glocks, to Berettas, to SIGs. But I still go back to my 1911s to which I have 2 (I'm awaiting delivery of a third). I don't have tiny hands but I don't have big bear hands and the 1911 design feels right in my hands. I use a weaver stance and the 1911 is the best pistol for hand placement in that stance, I had an issue with the Beretta that sometimes my thumb could slip onto the slide locking mechinism and prevent slide lock. With Glocks they felt too top heavy for me, maybe it's how the airsoft Glocks are designed and it's not like that on the Real steel. I used a SIG for quite a while as that felt pretty good, but as soon as I picked up a 1911 I needed one. After a little practice I can draw, remove the safety and bring the pistol up to the target in a little under 2 seconds. Why do I like the 1911 so much? It's all about the placement, the safety is right by your thumb so when you draw it you can use one motion to bring the pistol up and deactivate the safety. I found the Beretta to be a bit of a fumbling job deactivating the safety mid draw. Why the 1911 design is still praised isn't down to some cult following, it's down to simple ergonomics, it looks great, the functionality is great, the placement of everything on the pistol is perfect. I saw someone post that they would rather be able to fire 30,000 shots and not have to clean their pistol rather than 6000. I don't know about you but if I only fired off one shot from my pistol in a battle I would still clean it to make sure nothing is going to cause a problem next time. Better to be safe than sorry. --[[User:Cool-breeze|Cool-breeze]] 17:19, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

== Ballester-Molina ==

The Ballester-Molina should not be included in the 1911 page. It's not a 1911, only the mags and barrel interchange. Internally it's based on the Star Model A, which has significant differences from the 1911 in terms of lockwork. Unless anyone objects I'm going to create a separate page for it. - [[User:Nyles|Nyles]]

== Link share ==

Hello there,

This is a question for the webmaster/admin here at www.imfdb.org.

Can I use part of the information from this blog post right above if I give a link back to your site?

Thanks,
Daniel

== Dreamworks Animation ==

When are you guys going to add animated films from Dreamworks like Monsters vs. Aliens and Megamind, because they have guns used by police and the military.

Just because there are guns in it doesn't mean it gets a page here. Are they recognisable as real guns, or are they stylised ones? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 09:58, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

They are real guns in the animated films, like in Monsters vs Aliens, the soldiers used some M16 rifles to shoot at the alien, and in Megamind, the police uses rifles and pistols on aiming the villain, who is walking.

OK, I'm going to assume that you haven't read the [[Rules, Standards and Principles]] page, most notably [[Rules, Standards and Principles#Anime: Rules & Restrictions|this section]]. Read that, then check back. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 19:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

But wait, why do we have video game pages then? Firearms in them barely resemble real ones --[[User:Jackbel|Jackbel]] 19:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok sorry, no big deal, lets not add cartoons yet, because they have to wait.

:@Jackbel. Because in video games you can clearly identify the guns, and no the good ones do not just 'barely resemble real ones.' As a video game person you should know this, unless Australia has weird rules about depicting guns in video games. The reason cartoons are generally not allowed is because unlike anime, most cartoons have a generic silouette of a 'gun' while most animes have enough detail to be able to determine what guns was used. Think [[Ghost in the Shell]] or [[Cowboy Bebop]].--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 13:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

==.45 Blanks==

I've read a lot here that .45 blanks used to be unreliable. I was wondering when they started to become a bit more reliable and why they were unreliable? I can't find that anywhere.

I thought it wasn't really the blanks being unreliable so much as it just being easier to blank-convert a 9mm than a .45. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

.45 pistols require more recoil force to cycle their actions than 9mms. Since blank rounds have virtually no recoil, .45s are much harder to convert to use blanks.

Ah right. Is there some new way of converting them now because I've started to notice that in recent years there have been a lot of films using .45 ACP versions of pistols that are also chambered in 9mm. Die Hard 4.0 for example, McClane as a P220 in .45 ACP. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
:Is it explicitly stated that the prop gun was chambered in .45? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 21:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
::''"Is it explicitly stated that the prop gun was chambered in .45"'' We have a pic of the actual screen used gun and is listed as .45 ACP. I think all newer P220s are chambered in .45, only some of the older ones were chambered in 9mm and .38 Super. Also the .45 being unreliable with blanks. I don't think it encompassed all .45 chambered pistols. I think it was only in the 1911 platform. With the 9mm being a much smaller blank and having the large ejection port made for the .45 it was easier to eject them.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 22:09, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:SIGP220R LiveFreeDieHard.jpg|thumb|none|500px|SIG-Sauer P220R - .45 ACP. This is the screen used gun in the film and was carried and fired by ''[[Bruce Willis]]''.]]
::: Just checking. Especially after the whole issue with the Glocks. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Long (and detailed!)story short. For a 1911 to fire blanks reliably you must first drill and tap the barrel for a blank adapter, then taper the barrel hood, then grind off the locking lugs, and remove the barrel linkage. Once that is done, the testing for a reliable adapter and blank combo ensues (you may or may not need to enlarge the ejection port too). I figure its pretty much the same with other pistols...-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a very complex process. I'm assuming if you do that well though the 1911 will cycle blanks as well as 9mm blanks. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 01:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I read an article in a gun magazine a few years back about blanks and it said that it comes down to the casings used. According to the article, blanks are made from rifle brass because it has to be long enough to be crimped and still be long enough to be the length of a real cartridge. The problem with .45 acp ammo is that until recently there was no rifle brass in .45 diameter that could be used for blanks. I remember reading back when "Miami Vice" was on that Timothy La France had brass custom manufactured in .45 for blanks. -- David, 3 December 2010 (well, its the 3rd where I live)

==Laseraim Series III?==

So what is this thing?
[[Image:LaserAimSeriesIIIPistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|LaserAim Series III Pistol - .45 ACP]]
It looks more like a CZ derivative than a 1911 derivative to me... Alot like a mashup of CZ, S&W, Sig, STI, etc..-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 06:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
:It draws a little from the S&W series (namely the safety) and CZ-75 (in terms of grip shape), but technically it is a M1911 derivative, they just didn't make many of them.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 07:15, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Used to see these in tv shows during the late 80s. the later model was the first pistol I ever saw with an integral accessory rail on the dust cover, although that was in a catalog. David. 11 December 2010
:::Dust cover? What are you talking about? [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]]
I don't know what else to call it, it is the part of the frame extending in front of the trigger guard. I have seen it, in print referred to as a dust cover. David.

::THIS Laseraim was photographed for the [[Haunted (2002)]] page since it was used in an episode. If you guys read the Haunted (2002) page, for which this IMAGE was originally shot for, the description says: '''Laser Aim was yet another manufacturer who built ported .45 ACP pistol based on the original M1911 design, but incorporating elements of the BHP and the CZ-75 into a new design. The unique feature of the Laser Aim was a hole cut out of the trigger guard ahead of the trigger to mount a laser. Since the production ended for this pistol, smaller lasers with better battery life have been invented. By the late 1990s LaserAim had gone out of business and had sold their patents to AMT. ''' Hope this sheds some light on the piece. It is a new weapon influenced purportedly by M1911, BHP and CZ designs. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]]

Ah, that explains it. Could have saved myself about 2 hrs of google searching if I'd looked up the image uses hah.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

== MEU(SOC) Pistol... ==
...has been given a new designation, ''M45''. [http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/24/m45-close-quarters-combat-pistol/] [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 02:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

We also need a better image for it, but I can't find one I can't be sure isn't an Airsoft gun. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 19:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The big problem is there is no single model that is the M45/ MEUSOC Pistol. The "M-45s" in service are a mix and match of Kimbers, Springfields, Colts, etc. The "M-45" is a set of specs that any pistols built for MEUSOC have to comply with. There are SOME retrofitted M1911A1 pistols that were done by USMC Armorers at Quantico, but they are going to be near impossible to differentiate from the M1911A1 they were built from.
Here's a good thread from AR15.com (dear lord its hard to say that haha) about the M-45 MEUSOC pistol variants.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=49&t=86667
-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

== More proof of the M1911's greatness ==

According to the news, the M1911 is now the official state gun of Utah! This is kind of cool, since John Browning lived in Utah, and it's just in time for the great .45's centennial anniversary. [[Special:Contributions/74.192.58.206|74.192.58.206]] 21:16, 19 March 2011 (CDT)

== Happy 100th Anniversary to the Colt M1911! ==

Happy 100 years of service M1911! Thank you for providing some of the most nastiest knockdown power available to the armed forces and for providing an eternal name of badassery in motion pictures!

Here's looking forward to 100 years more! --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 15:40, 29 March 2011 (CDT)

My favorite semi-auto is the 1911. I've had affairs with others but I always come back to a good ole Colt .45. I didn't understand why until I did some research and figured out we shared a birthday. Still saving for an anniversary model... [[User:USGIMar29|USGIMar29]] 19:40, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

==9mm 1911s==
I'm not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask but could anyone recommend some good 9mm 1911s? I live in Australia and the maximum calibre you can get without doing competition shooting is .38 or 9mm rounds. --[[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 07:07, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

== Naming the MEU(SOC) pistol ==

On M1911's page (and correspondingly on pages that list the weapon) it is named "M-45 MEUSOC":

1) While calling it "M-45" wouldn't be incorrect, it should be changed to "M45" in line with other officially adopted names on IMFDB;

2) Using "MEUSOC" in conjunction with "M45" is incorrect. It is either "MEU(SOC) Pistol" or "M45 Close Quarters Battle Pistol"/"M45 Close Quarters Combat Pistol".

--[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:46, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:Well, then go change it. ^3^ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:59, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

::Will be done right now. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:17, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::I think they are the same pistol. I remember seeing a story about how the MEU(SOC) was reclassified as the M45 Close Quarters Combat Pistol at some point, and have also seen documents that use the term M45 MEUSOC (no brackets). What do you think the differences are between the two? I think there is some confusing as there have been various different versions of the MEU(SOC) pistol built from various off the shelf parts. There are at least 5 versions that I know of, and main fetures are as follows. 1: original version with unflared ejection port and Springfield Armoury logo behind the ejection port. 2: newer slide with flared ejection port and logo in front of the ejection port. 3: front slide serrations. 4: wide slide serrations and Novak sights, with grip safety with "bumb" at the bottom. 5: 4th version with skeleton hammer rather than Commander type hammer. You also have the ICQB which is a Kimber made pistol with a railed frame. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:26, 3 October 2011 (CDT)
::::Sorry, just realised I totally misread your original post. Though you were saying that the MEU(SOC) and M45 were different pistols. However, the term M45 MEUSOC (without brackets) is also correct. [https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=df43476377acd40c0f409faa2ceffc9d&_cview=1] --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 07:52, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::::Notice the presence of comma between M-45 and MEUSOC. That would indicate the listing of different designations for the weapon. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 09:27, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::::::I really don't think the comma means that, but to satisfy you, here [http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2010/03-March/19-Mar-2010/FBO-02095403.htm]. To be fair though, I have seen official documents that refer to the M45 being the MEUSOC, Close Quarters Battle or Close Quarters Combat pistol. I think this whole conversation is irrelevant however, as on looking into it, I think the M45 pistol and the MEU(SOC) pistol listed on this page are different weapons, with the M45 being a commercial of the shelf pistol made by either Colt, Sprinfield Armoury or Karl Lippard Designs. This article from the [http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/marine-marsoc-pistol-45cal-012511w/ Marine Corps Times] seems to back this up (this time referring to it as the Close Quarter Battle Pistol) stating that the M45 is modelled on the MEU(SOC) but will be a COTS pistol, which is currently being evaluated. For the sake of simplicity, I think the pistol on this page should just be called the MEU(SOC). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:19, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::::::MEUSCOC. Wonder what the first "C" stands for?
:::::::It would have been so much simpler if there was website that chronicles the history of MEU(SOC) pistol. Every variant along with pictures and how they were designated (to distinguish them)... Because currently sources are conflicting. In USMC's [http://www.quantico.usmc.mil/ MCB Quantico] section there is an article "[http://www.quantico.usmc.mil/Sentry/storyview.aspx?SID=4913 The Devil Dogs’ workshop]". There it says M45 Close Quarters Battle Pistol is being built by local armorers. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:50, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

One more issue: sources vary on the year of adoption. Some say 1985[http://www.americanspecialops.com/special-ops-weapons/meusoc-pistol.php][http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm], other say 1986[http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/marinefacts/blsoc.htm][http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=16][http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meusoc.htm]. Maybe change the part to "since the mid-1980s"? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:53, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

:Done. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:08, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

== A Location of Procuring ==
Does anyone know where you can get one of these great airsoft movie-1911 replicas namly the stunning and slender long-slide?

[[Image:WA490 4 mark.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Long Slide Jim Hoag M1911A1 replica]]

-[[User:GladeTaylor]]

The image has a watermark from [http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/ ehobbyasia.com] on it, so I'd suggest looking there. The exact pistol is [http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/western-arms-colt-hoag-bianchi-special-gbb-pistol.html here.] [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:12, 14 December 2011 (CST)

== Organization. ==

Any objections to alphabetizing this page? I think it would make a bit more sense... --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 21:38, 6 December 2011 (CST)
:No don't do that. The M1911 and M1911A1 go first. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 21:52, 6 December 2011 (CST)
::Fair enough, I actually agree with that. But what about the less common ones. Seems weird to Kimber, Strayer, Inifinity, Detonics, Springfield, etc... What if we keep the most common ones at the top (M1911 & M1911A1) and put the rest in order? --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 21:58, 6 December 2011 (CST)

Talk:Top Gear

2011-12-16T06:55:27Z

StarSummers: /* Interceptors */

This article should be deleted being that it is a documentary. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 22:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that. It's a British variety show that focuses on equal aspects entertainment and humor, but also factual information concerning the cars. If you've seen the show you'll know what I'm talking about, it really is the farthest thing from a documentary. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.151|98.118.59.151]] 22:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

:even then so it is a nonfictional item, so it falls out of the scope of IMFDB. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 17:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
:: If that's the case, then all [http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Category:Documentary these] pages need to be deleted as well. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 17:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
That is correct --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 17:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

== Top gear Ground Force ==

in Top gear Ground Force Jeremy uses an Over/Under shotgun for some light gardening

== TV Tropes ==

I was looking through the '''Imperial Storm Trooper Marksmanship Academy''' section and found this mentioned. ''"A Series 13 episode of Top Gear saw the British Armed Forces firing at a stationary Mitsubishi Evo 7 from only a few hundred yards away with machine guns, missing the majority of the time. The tracer rounds that went astray were enough to light parts of the surrounding area on fire." '' Is this a valid criticism? Or is that about all the accuracy you could expect form L7's and Browning M2's? [[User:Pravda616|Pravda616]] 16:59 22/2/11
: Here is the video of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPRTAksr2w . When they are actually shooting at the stationary Evo, they seem to have pretty good accuracy, but the whole thing is staged, and I imagine that the majority of the tracers are added in post, particularly when it is being driven around the firing zone. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

== Newly added AK ==

[[Image:Tg_s17ep1_ak47.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

Based on the general look of it and that mold line along the top of the nearest gun's handguard: airsoft guns? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:20, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== Interceptors ==
What about the firearms that appear in their mock 70's-detective show opening sequence titled "The Interceptors". They use, as far as I can tell, a Walther, a Luger, a Sten and a Colt Detective Special.
:: At one point a baddie is shown using a P38 as well, although it locks back after the first shot, but post editting showed it shooting again, ie muzzle flash, although this may have been somewhat deliberate as the whole sequence was spoofing 70's cop shows.

:: Jeremy or Jason Clarkson's "signature" weapon is a Walther P38, and James or James Steed's "signature" weapon is a Sten Sub Machine Gun, Richard or Roger St. Hammond's signature weapon was his hands, as hes a "karate master".

== Albania Special ==

During the Albania Special, the guys "rob" a bank, and come out with handguns. I have a capture from the episode and it seems to be a Tokarev TT-33, but im not entirely sure.

Considering where they were and what they were doing, i think its reasonable to assume its a Tokarev.

[http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-09-22-12h49m39s45.png Screen Cap from Episode 16x03]

the location of the rear sight and the shape of the trigger seem to suggest it.

Talk:Top Gear

2011-12-16T06:54:42Z

StarSummers: /* Interceptors */

This article should be deleted being that it is a documentary. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 22:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that. It's a British variety show that focuses on equal aspects entertainment and humor, but also factual information concerning the cars. If you've seen the show you'll know what I'm talking about, it really is the farthest thing from a documentary. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.151|98.118.59.151]] 22:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

:even then so it is a nonfictional item, so it falls out of the scope of IMFDB. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 17:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
:: If that's the case, then all [http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Category:Documentary these] pages need to be deleted as well. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 17:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
That is correct --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 17:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

== Top gear Ground Force ==

in Top gear Ground Force Jeremy uses an Over/Under shotgun for some light gardening

== TV Tropes ==

I was looking through the '''Imperial Storm Trooper Marksmanship Academy''' section and found this mentioned. ''"A Series 13 episode of Top Gear saw the British Armed Forces firing at a stationary Mitsubishi Evo 7 from only a few hundred yards away with machine guns, missing the majority of the time. The tracer rounds that went astray were enough to light parts of the surrounding area on fire." '' Is this a valid criticism? Or is that about all the accuracy you could expect form L7's and Browning M2's? [[User:Pravda616|Pravda616]] 16:59 22/2/11
: Here is the video of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPRTAksr2w . When they are actually shooting at the stationary Evo, they seem to have pretty good accuracy, but the whole thing is staged, and I imagine that the majority of the tracers are added in post, particularly when it is being driven around the firing zone. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

== Newly added AK ==

[[Image:Tg_s17ep1_ak47.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

Based on the general look of it and that mold line along the top of the nearest gun's handguard: airsoft guns? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:20, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== Interceptors ==
What about the firearms that appear in their mock 70's-detective show opening sequence titled "The Interceptors". They use, as far as I can tell, a Walther, a Luger, a Sten and a Colt Detective Special.
:: At one point a baddie is shown using a P38 as well, although it locks back after the first shot, but post editting showed it shooting again, ie muzzle flash, although this may have been somewhat deliberate as the whole sequence was spoofing 70's cop shows.

Jeremy or Jason Clarkson's "signature" weapon is a Walther P38, and James or James Steed's "signature" weapon is a Sten Sub Machine Gun, Richard or Roger St. Hammond's signature weapon was his hands, as hes a "karate master".

== Albania Special ==

During the Albania Special, the guys "rob" a bank, and come out with handguns. I have a capture from the episode and it seems to be a Tokarev TT-33, but im not entirely sure.

Considering where they were and what they were doing, i think its reasonable to assume its a Tokarev.

[http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-09-22-12h49m39s45.png Screen Cap from Episode 16x03]

the location of the rear sight and the shape of the trigger seem to suggest it.

Talk:The Bourne Ultimatum

2011-12-15T17:15:24Z

StarSummers: /* Moved from top of page */

== Glock 17 ==

[[Image:Ultimatum_03.JPG|500px]]
[[Image:Ultimatum_04.JPG|500px]]

== Glock 17 ==

[[Image:Ultimatum_01.JPG|500px]]

==The Glock==

:I'm not so sure this is the same gun. Note the differences in the rear sight. The gun pictured has Trijicon sights but Bourne's gun has standard Glock sights. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 04:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

::That just means that it's '''one''' of the Glock 17s used on the movie. There's always at least a double, and sometimes a triple or a quadruple, for every "hero" gun use. The reason being that if a weapon malfunctions on-set, or gets damaged in some way, they can't stall the entire production just to fix the gun. However, sometimes the guns aren't 100% identical to each other, even though they're meant to be used as a single character's weapon; it's likely that this was the case here. The armorer probably just grabbed several Glock 17s off the rack, and some of them had the standard sights, while others had the night sights. But all of them could have been used on-set.

::Also, the Glock in that picture came from Prop Store, and they are very good about checking serial numbers with the armorers. The weapons used in the New York scenes were provided by Weapons Specialists, Inc., and my understanding is that they have a close relationship with Prop Store (or at least, they seem to, which is why Prop Store gets to sell so many of their "hero" weapons). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

==Quick question regarding the Parking Lot Scene==
During the parking lot scene right before Bourne steals the police car, why were the CIAs shooting at the NYPD?
:They weren't, they were shooting at Bourne since they had a shoot to kill on sight order and the NYPD was caught in the crossfire who returned fire. -[[User:thePotShot| thePotShot]]15:35, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

== Moved from top of page ==

Would anyone be so kind as to tell me what gun is Bourne holding in the image below? Is it a Glock or an HK?

[[File:Bourne_Ultimatum_cp.JPG]]

I've captured some images of The Bourne Ultimatum.
 If somebody could tell me what types they are... ;)

If youre going to add something in, please add it under a new topic, dont just shove it to the top of the page above the contents

As for the topic, it appears to be a Glock Full Frame, such as a 17 or a 22

Talk:The Bourne Ultimatum

2011-12-15T17:14:57Z

StarSummers: /* Moved from top of page */ new section

Talk:The Bourne Ultimatum

2011-12-15T17:14:03Z

StarSummers:

Talk:NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service

2011-12-15T03:46:40Z

StarSummers: /* Tony's Gun in Baltimore */

==Title change==
Is there any chance this page's title can be changed back to NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service? It hasn't been called Navy NCIS in years. [[User: Ben41|Ben41]]

Am I the only one who thinks this article is arranged in a very confusing manner? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 19:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:Hold up... -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

:Better? -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Much. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

I did some cleaning up, but this page still needs a LOT of work. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC

Did anyone see the gun stash in the Season 7 episode "Power Down"? There's an MP7, G36, UMP, P90, M16A2, MP5 and many other guns.```

It's looking very much better. This is the only article I've seen on here arranged in such an extremely sloppy manner that it was when I posted my first comment above. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

the rifle gibbs used in the helicopter shot , was a winchester 73 with a vineer sight. you were right it was not a henry.

For the love of God, Can someone get some screenshots?

** Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW unless I am mistaken, that Combat Elite was a Commander Combat Elite, it had a short barrel.

How about you edit it then. Oh btw could you please put some more screenshots in it.

The gun that mike franks uses is a Kimber Warrior. I watched the episode today and I got a glimpse of the grips and magazine. I own one and they both match mine.

==Subdivide Category==
The handgun section of this article is exceptionally long and I was wondering whether putting revolvers (at least half a dozen are listed) in a separate category from auto pistols would help make the sectoin appear less bulky. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

That is a very good idea. -[[User: L.J. Gibbs]]

== Sniper Rifle ID ==

Need help ID'ing this rifle. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a Marine Corps M40A3.It is the newer version of the M40A1.

[[Image:NCIS_22020.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

They say that Gibbs M40A1 is in a .338 Lapua, which is impossible. The M40A1 was and will always be a short action reviever, it was the M24 that was built on the long action. Is this a mistake of the show itself or a mistake on this web site? [[Spades of Columbia]] Dec 12, 2010

I'm just going by what Abby says near the end of the episode, but she doesn't name any particular rifle. She just says she matched the bullet to his sniper rifle. If your going to have one rifle, why not have two. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This is from the NCIS wiki about Gibbs rifle ammo "Lapua 308 boat tail, full metal jacket, and molybdenum (or "moly")-coated rounds."

http://ncis.wikia.com/wiki/Leroy_Jethro_Gibbs

Now a lapua 308 win would make sense but why even say lapua when its still a winchester round. plus, it doesnt change the fact that this site has a m40a1 marked as a .338 lapua, so if someone could change that this would make the world right again. [[Spades of Columbia]]

It's a .308 Winchester chambered rifle, but the ammunition is manufactured by Lapua.

== SIG 229 ==

I don't have any screencap proof that they've changed over to the 229 in the new season, so I'm going to put this in the discussion until someone can tell me what episode they saw this in. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

SIG-Sauer P229
In season 7 the entire Team switches to the P229 .40 S&W the same model the REAL NCIS use.

[[Image:NCIS-ZIVA-7x11-P228.jpg|thumb|none|400px|7x11, P228 not a P229.]]

Also used in 7x08, 7x09, 7x10 and thats all I have recorded right now. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

that still looks like a 228 to me. the trigger guard looks round, and the slide serrations dont go halfway as does the 229. but thats just me...

That's what I said, though my wording could have been clearer. I've removed the listing until there is proof. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 05:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

oh crap, sorry i totally didn't read anything you wrote earlier. just looked at the picture x] my bad.

==Kel-Tec==
In one episode (I think it was either "Cloak" or "Dagger") Agent Lee threatens a man extorting information out of her with what looked like a Kel-Tec subcompact pistol. Can anyone confirm this? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

==The M9==
Technically isn't the M9 and the Beretta 92 the same gun?

- M9 is the military classification of the 92F Beretta, yes. But the M9 classification is used to refer to the guns actually used by actors representing military personnel, while 92F is used in reference to being used by someone non-military (even though in the case of films/shows, they're always 92Fs/92FSs anyway) In addition, the image thumbnail is of a much newer M9A1 (which has the rail), and is not the same as the base 92F/M9. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, I think.

::Actually, on IMFDB, we just call them all 92F/92FS, even when they're in the hands of actors playing U.S. military personnel. The reason is that propmasters and armorers in Hollywood only ever use the civilian 92Fs, because the military M9 is almost impossible to find in private hands. And we only care about the behind-the-scenes info, not real life. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Indeed. And I agree, I don't care about real life either. ;D [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Same here. God bless you all.

Can anyone here tell me what, if any, differences there are between a common 92FS and an M9? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 13:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, I'm wondering that myself. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 09:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

==Can't sleep==
I suppose there's no real point to this, but did anyone else notice this? Its from 7x08, and that's DiNozzo just of screen by the way.
[[Image:NCIS-7x08-1.jpg|thumb|none|400px|What's wrong with this picture?]]
:you mean the Glock? --[[User:Redram355|redram355]] 18:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I forgot I did this earlier. Yes, only that one single camera angle. I've never understood errors like that. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

At the end of the episode "Ravenous," I believe Tony is yet again holding a Glock. This could be a continuity error or it could be due to the fact that he worked for various police departments before joining NCIS. --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 03:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In season one, spisode 3 or 4 " The Curse", a gun is seen mounted on the wall at 34:46. Any idea what it is?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 02:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize there's a shitload of guns in that episode right? Happen to have a screenshot? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize i tolf you exactly when the gun is seen? Find the episode online.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 00:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I never notice any guns the first time. This what you mean? If so, not a clue. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-1x05-1.jpg|thumb|none|225px|Unknown gun from 1x05 ''The Curse'']]

That's it. Looks almost like a P38 sort of. --[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 01:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what i thought at first, but the front sight and trigger guard aren't right. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe a Luger or Walther prototype. Just a thought. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

Belive it's a Grendel P-30 pistol, with slide locked back. (Rusgunnut1)

==Moved from main page==
This is where discussions & comments are supposed to go. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

→IMI Mini Uzi -
I love how in this she goes and sprays rounds around from the hip while her mossad partner uses his P90 like true operator would [[24.17.120.59]]

→Walther P99 -
That is probably the smallest "suppressor" I have ever seen on any gun, I doubt it would do much in the way of sound suppression
[[24.17.120.59]]

What is with the section on the "Fake Glock 18". It either has a selector switch and is a true 18 or it doesnt, at which point it would be a modified 17. "Fake Glock 18" just comes off ignorant and is misleading. [[Spades of Columbia]]

== M40A1 ==
Ari attempts to kill Gibbs with it before Ziva kills him. Ari used .308 Lapua Magnums to kill Special Agent Todd, leading Ziva to remark that "You (Gibbs) used .338 Lapua Magnums when you were a sniper". This is strange because the M40A1 is chambered solely in 7.62X51 NATO cartridge. Another major note is that in the "Kill Ari" two part series, a round is called a .308 Lapua magnum was used, this is not an real round, the round used was likely confused with a .308 winchester, or a .338 Lapua magnum. I like the show, but they have to research their ammo.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Ziva never mentions what caliber Gibbs used, Gibbs himself states it and Ziva replies simply "''That's what you shot as a Marine sniper''"
Prior to this exchange, Gibb's states "''As a marine sniper, I used hand loaded Lapua .308 boattail full metal jacket moly-coated bullets.''" Though recently it has been stated that Gibb's used a .338 Lapua Magnum round to kill Pedro Hernandez in revenge for Shannon and Kelly's deaths. [http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=887] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You really need to know what your talking about to post you know. i watch this show almost religiously. trust me i know hat happens.
Under the M40A1, it claimed that Ari used a .338 Lapua round but in the episode "Kill Ari: Part 1" it states that Ari used a .308 Lapua round. I'm not sure how to go about editing the page and just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything. Can someone verify and edit for me? --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 21:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Like stated above the M40A1 is ONLY made in short action and can not possibly ever ever be in a .338 Lapua. Plus, do to the history of that caliber it would not be logical for Ari or Gibbs to use or even get their hands on that type of rifle, it must be a mistake from the show. [[Spades of Columbia]]

The whole deal with the .308 lapua magnum is confusing. 1)There is no such round as a .308 Lapua Magnum. 2) What there thinking of is a .338 lapua magnum for the "Kill Ari" series 3) Gibbs uses a .308s MANUFACTURED by Lapua. not created. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

In the episode "Borderland", Paloma Reynosa gave Abby the round that Gibbs left on the ridge. It said, on the bottom ".338 Lapua"

I know, it was gibbs personal rifle he used to kill Hernandez, not the M40A1. in the future you might wanna get an account or post your name if you want feedback.-[[User:SargeOverkill]]

== Too much info ==
Ducky reviews autopsy results from the crew of the freighter on which Ziva was traveling and mentions numerous "5.7x28mm" rounds in the bodies. While the 5.7x28mm cartridge is the correct ammo for the P90 used by Israel, the bullet in that cartridge is same .224 bullet used in the standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge fired by the M16, the SIG 550 and dozens of other weapons. How could Ducky know from just the autopsy that the bullets came from a 5.7x28?

-Bullet weight. They are different grain rounds.

-also, don't forget, you can tell what weapon fired the ammo by the rifling patterns.

== Weapons categorization ==

I noticed that someone reordered the handguns alphabetically. Because of the fact the SIG-Sauer P228 is the main handgun used in the series, I just going to put the SIG-Sauer section first. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree that's how it should be done, it makes sense. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

- Sounds fine to me. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

==Rule Fifty-One==

I was watching the Season 7 finale the other day and I noticed a few things. There's a really good shot of part of Mike Franks's Kimber near the end; it looks like it has pearl grips, but I couldn't get a screencap. Also the cartel members had at least one G36C in Mexico, and a couple MP5Ks on the runway. Unfortunately I couldn't get screencaps so can someone maybe look into this? Thanks --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 22:01, 9 August 2010

I watched the episode and Franks' gun has crimson trace laser grips in tan. It looked like it had night sights but wasnt a warrior because it didnt have a ambidextrous safety. I think that his gun is a regular custom II with the night sights and the laser grips.

== SMG in Ziva's Flashback in Shalom==

Can anyone ID the SMG used by Ziva in her flashback to a Mossad Kidon assassination in "Shalom".

It was a [[Micro Uzi]] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you, Crazycrankle.

==Revolver used in Cover Story==

Can anyone ID the revolver used by Landon in "Cover Story"? P.S. Add a screencap with the ID.

==Beretta 92FS Inox==

The "Beretta 92FS Inox" has a finish that's way too shiny to be an Inoxidizable (stainless) finish. It looks to me like it's actually a regular Beretta 92F with an after-market polished nickel finish and pearl (or pearlite) grips. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

==Some Unknown Guns==

A few guns that I'm not positive on. They might not be 100% necessary, but here they are:
[[Image:TwilightHK94_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Possibly an HK94 Carbine with a civilian-length barrel and a stock. There isn't a clearer shot than this.]]
[[Image:ZivaRevolver1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A snubnosed revolver that Ziva uses to gun down a serial killer while undercover, don't remember the episode but it was in Season 6. The episode is titled "Recoil." It's from Season 5. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 20:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)L.J. Gibbs]]
[[Image:NCISS5 504.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Same as above.]]
[[Image:Sxsw_lever_action.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A lever action rifle used briefly in "South by Southwest". Possibly the same one Gibbs uses?]]
[[Image:GCBC_AK74_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Maybe an AKS-74, based on the magazine?]]

Given that AK type rifles were used by all the other terrorists, chance are good it's one of the many types. And the Ziva caps are listed as a Colt Python on the main page, though the listing lacks screencaps. Also you may want better quality screencaps if you want to put any of those on the page. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't have anything better. If anyone else does or can get them it'd be great. That's why I put them here instead. -[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 17:23, 19 August 2010

==Ziva's rifle in 4x14: Blowback==
[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Not a SL8, maybe a Remington 700 or something? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 07:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]
Maybe it's a Remington AICS, do you have any other screenshots? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 08:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|How's this? Didn't think there was a shot from farther out, I paying attention to the wrong screen when this appeared. Still not very good though. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]

Yeah, it looks a Remington 700PSS.--[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 09:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

the episode "recoil" wasnt in s6 it was the 3rd last episode of season 5

== Ziva's Knife ==

What kind of tac knife does Ziva use? It looks like a SOG Tsunami to me, but were those in production when she first appeared (around Season 3's "Silver War")?

It's listed on BladeForums as a Cold Steel Kobun. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

== Frank's Kimber ==

I've been watching for some time now, and have only seen Frank's in 3 episodes. All of these episodes hes' used his Kimber is it just a coincidence or is that his signature weapon like James Bond's is the Walther, and that Dirty Harry's is the .44? [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 00:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

: I wouldnt call it 'signature', but rather his main sidearm. Bond and Dirty Harry had it A LOT and even people who know diddly squat about guns could tell who had a 44 magnum. Franks' Kimber has only been in a few episodes, and we still arent sure what kind of Kimber it is.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 04:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

== McGee is left-handed ==

Is this problematic when using a SIG pistol?

Only when he wants to use the de-cocker...everything else works just fine.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 20:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, McGee is left handed. Like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

:The de-cocker is a bit of a problem, the slidelock can also be a bit of an issue depending on the size of the shooter's hands. My fingers are a little to long to easily use the P22X slidelock, but I'd imagine that someone with slightly smaller hands could manage it with relative ease.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 22:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

My hands are a little on the larger side, even being a woman (im 5'10") but ive never had an issue using a Sig left handed. Yes, its not as ergonomically sound as right handed but i can shoot left handed without much issue. -MissySummers-

==Revolvers==
I separated the revolvers from the pistols in the handgun section to make the page easier to digest. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

:- I don't think it hurts anything. Nice idea, good job. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

==Pm12==
The mexican dude used a pm12 of some sort in the latest episode, couldn't distinguish what exactly.

You mean the Beretta M12? I know, I added it. Anyone know what the Mexican drug-dealer lady had?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 19:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

:I'm assuming you mean this? And her goons were using 551's. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-Paloma-Pistol-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Not a clue.]]

Thats a magnum research micro eagle.
-k9870

Gibbs had that double-barrel shotgun for a second or two as well, and there was a pretty good shot of Franks' Kimber too. --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]]

:Should we put that screencap in the main page? [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

No, is very obviously bootleg, which is against site rules. It's been less than a week, so unless you can show me where on the official site it came from, it's bootleg and not allowed on the main page. When the DVD set comes out, it's cool. (Can we screen cap episodes that are available on the CBS webpage?)--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 16:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a very high probability that most, if not all, screen caps from active TV seasons are "bootlegs". The only "legit" options are iTunes and Hulu, the later doesn't meet quality requirements in most peoples eyes. The former is expensive when you already plan on buying the entire season when it's on Blu-ray or DVD. Also, I replaced it with what I believe is an iTunes downloaded version. (I did it on my mum's friends computer, there's no watermarks or anything.) I also got other HD caps from the episode aswell. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

==MP-9==
Not to be picky, but should we have the MP-9 from "Legend: Part II" on here as well, since we have the SIG SG 552s and Glock 17 from that episode as well? --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 11: 53, 26 September 2010
:Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

==Jericho 941==
Is this a Jericho 941 or another Desert Eagle?
[[Image:NCIS34 502.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

Neither. The trigger guard has a curve to it; both Eagles have straight guards. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Beretta Cheetah springs to mind. [[User:Noe|Noe]] 11:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

That was my first thought, but the slide isn't the right shape at the front. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 11:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

CZ-83

It looks a lot like a Makarov PM, or the hungaran variant

When Faatin Amal starts to put the pillow over Namir Eschel's face, the pistol is a suppressed Makarov PM, but after Eschel dies, the pistol looks like a CZ-83. Can anyone confirm that othern than myself?--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 08:26, 6 November 2011 (CST)

== Ziva's backup in "Jack Knife" ==

What compact pistol did Ziva carry in Season 7's "Jack Knife"? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS7 33.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like an AMT Backup. Whether it is the .45 ACP, 9mm, or .380 is beyond me. Can't see the barrel diameter.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

==Sniper rifle used in "The Bone Yard"==
Can anyone ID the sniper rifle used in Season 1's "The Bone Yard"? It's the rifle used by the mob hitman. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Ben41. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 14:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS2 60.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

==Suppressed Glock in "Designated Target"==
Can anyone ID the exact model of suppressed Glock that was used by one of the Burundian death squad members?

==Photo of Webley==
Here's the screencap of the Webley revolver used in the recent NCIS episode.

[[Image:Webley revolver NCIS.jpg|250px]]

Feel free to use it to correct the article if any. Thanks. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 23:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

:I think that might actually be an Enfield No.2 going by the caliber... I'll have to watch the episode again.

:: I see. NCIS refers to it as a Webley. But they can be wrong. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm just a bit ticked off that the Royal Marine Major claims to keep one in his flat in London. You know, what with private ownership of handguns being all but illegal in Britain. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
: Oh Go bark at the moon.--[[User:SAMBAMA|SAMBAMA]] 17:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Antique firearm collectors in the United Kingdom ARE allowed to buy and sell pieces for their collections. Having said that, i'm not very familiar with webley revolvers. Are they old enough to be considered 'antique'?--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 17:41, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== editing page ==

In order to edit the page, you need to be a registered user. If you are not, you can make recommendations for changes on this discussion page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Forend isn't a word, and as far as I know lights are always mounted fore, not hind. I recommend a wholesale removal of the word forend without replacement.

== Kahr P9/K9 ==

The section on the Kahr P9 contains the statement: "The P9 is similar to the K9 but it has the +1 magazine." This is incorrect. The P9 and K9 are both 7+1 guns in stock configuration and their magazines are interchangeable. The P9 has a polymer frame and the K9 has a stainless steel frame. The P9 can be seen on Kahr's website here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-P9.asp], and the K9 can be seen here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K9.asp]. You can see both come standard with a 7 round magazine.

==Borin's SIG in "Ships in the Night"==
The subcompact SIG that CGIS Special Agent Abigail Borin had in her purse looked like either a Stainless Steel SIG P230 or a Stainless Steel SIG P232. Can anyone make a positive ID? Add a screencap, too, when you make the ID.--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 18:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

==Gibbs' Suppressed Gun in "Judgment Day" Flashback==
I believe that the suppressed gun that Gibbs used to assassinate Anatoli Zukov in the flashback in Judgment Day Part 1 & 2 and again in a flashback in Enemies Domestic was a suppressed SIG Sauer P228.
P.S. When Gibbs shot Zukov, he fired three shots. Two into Zukov's chest and one in his head. Execution-style. Please note the same execution style shooting in Brothers In Arms. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC) I would try to get a screencap, but I do not have any of the NCIS seasons on DVD. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Was that back when he was in Paris with Jen? If so, I think it would be pretty hard to identify due to the effects they use in flashback scenes.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
::Not if you have a keen eye for detail, like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::It would make sense to use a P228, since it is their duty pistol. --[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::But I honestly do not think that there are any SIG Sauer P228's that are made to accept a suppressor. At least, none that I know of. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm sure that there are threaded barrels availiable for the P228. Probably not as much now, since the P228 isn't in production anymore :( but back when that scene took place I'm sure they were availiable.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 21:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::These were the first two results when I used Yahoo! Search for threaded barrels for the SIG Sauer P228.
::::::http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-p229-replacement-barrel-9mm-threaded.html
::::::http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/ShowProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=29&productid=311

:::::::::It doesn't matter if there are externally threaded barrels available for the P228; any movie pistol can take a suppressor because the barrel has to be threaded internally in order to accept the blank-firing adapter (BFA). Fake suppressors can be added simply by using an attachment that screws into the barrel's internal threading after the blank conversion has been done. This is why you routinely see characters in movies screwing suppressors onto pistols that do not have externally threaded barrels. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 11:00, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== Henry Rifle in Season 6 "South by Southwest" ==

Just saw this episode on TV and the Henry rifle is mis-classified as a Winchester Model 1873. The two are very close in construction, but the rifle referred to as "the Henry" from the show is indeed a Henry 30-30. You have to look close during the show but the rifle Gibbs uses has an Octagon barrel which is only used in Henry rifles.

== Unknown MG found by Malachi ==

I think this thing might be an M240, judging by the heat shield. Still not sure why it's got an EoTech on it, though. [[User:Raven|Raven]] 06:56, 9 March 2011 (MSK)

== Tony's Gun in Baltimore ==

I of course don't have screen caps and maybe somebody out there already does...
The gun Tony carried while working for Baltimore P.D. looks to be a Colt Commander or the like. Black grips, probably not full 5-inch barrel, and possible novak rear sight. Just wondering if Anybody else caught that. [[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]
::I definitely agree it is a 1911 variant with novak sights, but I think it did have a full length barrel. I could be wrong though UPDATE: Just got around to looking at it again, definite novak sights and no slant in the slide serrations (none in the front).User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:45, 6 May 2011 (CDT)

The page says its a Gold Cup National Match but i dont think it looks anything like it. Maybe a customized Series 70? -Missy

:Definitely not a Gold Cup, but I don't really know what it could be. Springfield Armory of some kind? For know I am moving it to "Unidentified 1911".--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 18:16, 20 November 2011 (CST)

If you look at the picture below, it appears to have a full length guide rod system similar to that found on compact Springfield 1911s. I disagree with JazzBlackBelt's assessment of the barrel length; it looks to be of no more than 4 inches in length. Could it be springfield Champion model of some sort? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 21:04, 8 December 2011 (CST)

:: This is what i can see from the screen shots out there. It appears to have a beavertail grip safety, a skeletonized hammer, a full length guide rod, straight cocking serrations in the rear, and novak style sights. The rest of the gun is obscured. Judging by the images below, the barrel seems to be more towards a commander size model, rather than a 5 inch barrel, but that might just be because of the camera. -MissySummers-

[[Image:NCISS8 26.jpg|thumb|700px|none|DiNozzo draws his Colt in Season 8's "Baltimore".]]

==Unidentified 1911==
An unidentified 1911 is the sidearm of Baltimore P.D. Detective Anthony DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) in Season 8's "Baltimore".
[[Image:NCISS8 24.jpg|thumb|700px|none|In a flashback, DiNozzo holds his Colt as a Baltimore PD detective.]]
[[Image:NCISS8 26.jpg|thumb|700px|none|DiNozzo draws his Colt in Season 8's "Baltimore".]]

== Frank's SW1911==
In "Pyramid" when we get the shot of Franks' SW1911, the slide reads SW1911'''PD''', and there are no rails on the frame. Doesn't the only full-length barrel SW1911PD have rails? I couldn't find a 5" barrel PD with no rails.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:39, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== DVD Cover ==

Do you think we should update the DVD Cover pictures to the latest (season 8)? Here it is to decide if you like it or not.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:52, 12 August 2011 (CDT)
[[Image:NCISDVDCoverSeason8.jpg|thumb|none|250px|NCIS- Season 8 (2010-2011)]]

== 9x03 "The Penelope Papers" ==

In the latest episode - 9x03, ''The Penelope Papers'' - there was something described as a Vietnam-era prototype carbon-fibre pistol. Is this an actual gun, or was it made up? The microchips in the caterpillar (self-replicating, no less) were dreadfully fake, but in a world that includes the gyrojet and the Krummlauf... well, I wouldn't put anything past wartime weapons tech.

So, anyone have any ideas? Fictional prop, or little-known prototype? [[User:Awmperry|Awmperry]] 12:47, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

: Probably a prop from actual pistols. Not sure if we should put it up. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 20:55, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

::I think we should, it was a pistol after all and this site usually adds weapons even if they are mocked up. Looked like a CZ variant to me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:47, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:NCIS-BLACKHAND.jpg|thumb|500px|none|The "Black Hand". --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:38, 13 October 2011 (CDT)]]

Hmmmm... could be a mocked up HK45 or Mk 23, but I honestly have NO ideas--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 15:07, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

: Leaning on the former there mate. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 19:56, 13 October 2011 (CDT)
:: Grip definitely looks more HK45-ish. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 03:33, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
::: It is an IMI / IWI SP-21 Barak pistol. [[User:SgtRonin|SgtRonin]] 05:36, 06 November 2011 (CDT)

==9x04 "Enemy on the Hill"==

Got the photo of the two snipers. One of them's an AW rifle. I'm not on the other rifle. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 01:57, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

==Splitting the article to seasons==

Some of the long articles have been like 24 and Ultimate Force so far with Hawaii Five-0 following it. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 00:39, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

It's going to be a little tougher since this show is already in its 9th season. It didn't seem that they used a lot of different weapons each season like Hawaii Five-0. The agents all still use the SIG and they don't go on a lot of raids using more than their sidearms. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:45, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ugh, what is this, season-splitting week? First H-50 which I can understand, but now NCIS? It doesn't really need it, does it?--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 03:28, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:[[Stargate: SG1]] got season split despite mostly using the same weapons from season to season. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 06:09, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

== Additional Screenshots ==

[[Image:NCIS 005.JPG|thumb|none|500px|In the Season 2 episode "Chained", Gibbs pulls his P228.]]
[[Image:NCIS 007.JPG|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo with his P228 in the Season 3 episode "Bait".]]
[[Image:NCIS 008.JPG|thumb|none|500px|Ziva David ([[Cote de Pablo]]) draws her P228 in Season 3's "Ravenous".]]
[[Image:NCISS3 001.jpg|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) with his P228 in Season 3's "Switch".]]

Talk:NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service

2011-12-15T03:44:02Z

StarSummers: /* Tony's Gun in Baltimore */

==Title change==
Is there any chance this page's title can be changed back to NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service? It hasn't been called Navy NCIS in years. [[User: Ben41|Ben41]]

Am I the only one who thinks this article is arranged in a very confusing manner? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 19:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:Hold up... -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

:Better? -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Much. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

I did some cleaning up, but this page still needs a LOT of work. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC

Did anyone see the gun stash in the Season 7 episode "Power Down"? There's an MP7, G36, UMP, P90, M16A2, MP5 and many other guns.```

It's looking very much better. This is the only article I've seen on here arranged in such an extremely sloppy manner that it was when I posted my first comment above. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

the rifle gibbs used in the helicopter shot , was a winchester 73 with a vineer sight. you were right it was not a henry.

For the love of God, Can someone get some screenshots?

** Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW unless I am mistaken, that Combat Elite was a Commander Combat Elite, it had a short barrel.

How about you edit it then. Oh btw could you please put some more screenshots in it.

The gun that mike franks uses is a Kimber Warrior. I watched the episode today and I got a glimpse of the grips and magazine. I own one and they both match mine.

==Subdivide Category==
The handgun section of this article is exceptionally long and I was wondering whether putting revolvers (at least half a dozen are listed) in a separate category from auto pistols would help make the sectoin appear less bulky. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

That is a very good idea. -[[User: L.J. Gibbs]]

== Sniper Rifle ID ==

Need help ID'ing this rifle. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a Marine Corps M40A3.It is the newer version of the M40A1.

[[Image:NCIS_22020.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

They say that Gibbs M40A1 is in a .338 Lapua, which is impossible. The M40A1 was and will always be a short action reviever, it was the M24 that was built on the long action. Is this a mistake of the show itself or a mistake on this web site? [[Spades of Columbia]] Dec 12, 2010

I'm just going by what Abby says near the end of the episode, but she doesn't name any particular rifle. She just says she matched the bullet to his sniper rifle. If your going to have one rifle, why not have two. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This is from the NCIS wiki about Gibbs rifle ammo "Lapua 308 boat tail, full metal jacket, and molybdenum (or "moly")-coated rounds."

http://ncis.wikia.com/wiki/Leroy_Jethro_Gibbs

Now a lapua 308 win would make sense but why even say lapua when its still a winchester round. plus, it doesnt change the fact that this site has a m40a1 marked as a .338 lapua, so if someone could change that this would make the world right again. [[Spades of Columbia]]

It's a .308 Winchester chambered rifle, but the ammunition is manufactured by Lapua.

== SIG 229 ==

I don't have any screencap proof that they've changed over to the 229 in the new season, so I'm going to put this in the discussion until someone can tell me what episode they saw this in. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

SIG-Sauer P229
In season 7 the entire Team switches to the P229 .40 S&W the same model the REAL NCIS use.

[[Image:NCIS-ZIVA-7x11-P228.jpg|thumb|none|400px|7x11, P228 not a P229.]]

Also used in 7x08, 7x09, 7x10 and thats all I have recorded right now. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

that still looks like a 228 to me. the trigger guard looks round, and the slide serrations dont go halfway as does the 229. but thats just me...

That's what I said, though my wording could have been clearer. I've removed the listing until there is proof. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 05:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

oh crap, sorry i totally didn't read anything you wrote earlier. just looked at the picture x] my bad.

==Kel-Tec==
In one episode (I think it was either "Cloak" or "Dagger") Agent Lee threatens a man extorting information out of her with what looked like a Kel-Tec subcompact pistol. Can anyone confirm this? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

==The M9==
Technically isn't the M9 and the Beretta 92 the same gun?

- M9 is the military classification of the 92F Beretta, yes. But the M9 classification is used to refer to the guns actually used by actors representing military personnel, while 92F is used in reference to being used by someone non-military (even though in the case of films/shows, they're always 92Fs/92FSs anyway) In addition, the image thumbnail is of a much newer M9A1 (which has the rail), and is not the same as the base 92F/M9. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, I think.

::Actually, on IMFDB, we just call them all 92F/92FS, even when they're in the hands of actors playing U.S. military personnel. The reason is that propmasters and armorers in Hollywood only ever use the civilian 92Fs, because the military M9 is almost impossible to find in private hands. And we only care about the behind-the-scenes info, not real life. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Indeed. And I agree, I don't care about real life either. ;D [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Same here. God bless you all.

Can anyone here tell me what, if any, differences there are between a common 92FS and an M9? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 13:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, I'm wondering that myself. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 09:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

==Can't sleep==
I suppose there's no real point to this, but did anyone else notice this? Its from 7x08, and that's DiNozzo just of screen by the way.
[[Image:NCIS-7x08-1.jpg|thumb|none|400px|What's wrong with this picture?]]
:you mean the Glock? --[[User:Redram355|redram355]] 18:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I forgot I did this earlier. Yes, only that one single camera angle. I've never understood errors like that. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

At the end of the episode "Ravenous," I believe Tony is yet again holding a Glock. This could be a continuity error or it could be due to the fact that he worked for various police departments before joining NCIS. --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 03:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In season one, spisode 3 or 4 " The Curse", a gun is seen mounted on the wall at 34:46. Any idea what it is?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 02:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize there's a shitload of guns in that episode right? Happen to have a screenshot? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize i tolf you exactly when the gun is seen? Find the episode online.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 00:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I never notice any guns the first time. This what you mean? If so, not a clue. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-1x05-1.jpg|thumb|none|225px|Unknown gun from 1x05 ''The Curse'']]

That's it. Looks almost like a P38 sort of. --[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 01:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what i thought at first, but the front sight and trigger guard aren't right. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe a Luger or Walther prototype. Just a thought. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

Belive it's a Grendel P-30 pistol, with slide locked back. (Rusgunnut1)

==Moved from main page==
This is where discussions & comments are supposed to go. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

→IMI Mini Uzi -
I love how in this she goes and sprays rounds around from the hip while her mossad partner uses his P90 like true operator would [[24.17.120.59]]

→Walther P99 -
That is probably the smallest "suppressor" I have ever seen on any gun, I doubt it would do much in the way of sound suppression
[[24.17.120.59]]

What is with the section on the "Fake Glock 18". It either has a selector switch and is a true 18 or it doesnt, at which point it would be a modified 17. "Fake Glock 18" just comes off ignorant and is misleading. [[Spades of Columbia]]

== M40A1 ==
Ari attempts to kill Gibbs with it before Ziva kills him. Ari used .308 Lapua Magnums to kill Special Agent Todd, leading Ziva to remark that "You (Gibbs) used .338 Lapua Magnums when you were a sniper". This is strange because the M40A1 is chambered solely in 7.62X51 NATO cartridge. Another major note is that in the "Kill Ari" two part series, a round is called a .308 Lapua magnum was used, this is not an real round, the round used was likely confused with a .308 winchester, or a .338 Lapua magnum. I like the show, but they have to research their ammo.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Ziva never mentions what caliber Gibbs used, Gibbs himself states it and Ziva replies simply "''That's what you shot as a Marine sniper''"
Prior to this exchange, Gibb's states "''As a marine sniper, I used hand loaded Lapua .308 boattail full metal jacket moly-coated bullets.''" Though recently it has been stated that Gibb's used a .338 Lapua Magnum round to kill Pedro Hernandez in revenge for Shannon and Kelly's deaths. [http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=887] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You really need to know what your talking about to post you know. i watch this show almost religiously. trust me i know hat happens.
Under the M40A1, it claimed that Ari used a .338 Lapua round but in the episode "Kill Ari: Part 1" it states that Ari used a .308 Lapua round. I'm not sure how to go about editing the page and just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything. Can someone verify and edit for me? --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 21:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Like stated above the M40A1 is ONLY made in short action and can not possibly ever ever be in a .338 Lapua. Plus, do to the history of that caliber it would not be logical for Ari or Gibbs to use or even get their hands on that type of rifle, it must be a mistake from the show. [[Spades of Columbia]]

The whole deal with the .308 lapua magnum is confusing. 1)There is no such round as a .308 Lapua Magnum. 2) What there thinking of is a .338 lapua magnum for the "Kill Ari" series 3) Gibbs uses a .308s MANUFACTURED by Lapua. not created. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

In the episode "Borderland", Paloma Reynosa gave Abby the round that Gibbs left on the ridge. It said, on the bottom ".338 Lapua"

I know, it was gibbs personal rifle he used to kill Hernandez, not the M40A1. in the future you might wanna get an account or post your name if you want feedback.-[[User:SargeOverkill]]

== Too much info ==
Ducky reviews autopsy results from the crew of the freighter on which Ziva was traveling and mentions numerous "5.7x28mm" rounds in the bodies. While the 5.7x28mm cartridge is the correct ammo for the P90 used by Israel, the bullet in that cartridge is same .224 bullet used in the standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge fired by the M16, the SIG 550 and dozens of other weapons. How could Ducky know from just the autopsy that the bullets came from a 5.7x28?

-Bullet weight. They are different grain rounds.

-also, don't forget, you can tell what weapon fired the ammo by the rifling patterns.

== Weapons categorization ==

I noticed that someone reordered the handguns alphabetically. Because of the fact the SIG-Sauer P228 is the main handgun used in the series, I just going to put the SIG-Sauer section first. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree that's how it should be done, it makes sense. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

- Sounds fine to me. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

==Rule Fifty-One==

I was watching the Season 7 finale the other day and I noticed a few things. There's a really good shot of part of Mike Franks's Kimber near the end; it looks like it has pearl grips, but I couldn't get a screencap. Also the cartel members had at least one G36C in Mexico, and a couple MP5Ks on the runway. Unfortunately I couldn't get screencaps so can someone maybe look into this? Thanks --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 22:01, 9 August 2010

I watched the episode and Franks' gun has crimson trace laser grips in tan. It looked like it had night sights but wasnt a warrior because it didnt have a ambidextrous safety. I think that his gun is a regular custom II with the night sights and the laser grips.

== SMG in Ziva's Flashback in Shalom==

Can anyone ID the SMG used by Ziva in her flashback to a Mossad Kidon assassination in "Shalom".

It was a [[Micro Uzi]] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you, Crazycrankle.

==Revolver used in Cover Story==

Can anyone ID the revolver used by Landon in "Cover Story"? P.S. Add a screencap with the ID.

==Beretta 92FS Inox==

The "Beretta 92FS Inox" has a finish that's way too shiny to be an Inoxidizable (stainless) finish. It looks to me like it's actually a regular Beretta 92F with an after-market polished nickel finish and pearl (or pearlite) grips. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

==Some Unknown Guns==

A few guns that I'm not positive on. They might not be 100% necessary, but here they are:
[[Image:TwilightHK94_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Possibly an HK94 Carbine with a civilian-length barrel and a stock. There isn't a clearer shot than this.]]
[[Image:ZivaRevolver1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A snubnosed revolver that Ziva uses to gun down a serial killer while undercover, don't remember the episode but it was in Season 6. The episode is titled "Recoil." It's from Season 5. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 20:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)L.J. Gibbs]]
[[Image:NCISS5 504.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Same as above.]]
[[Image:Sxsw_lever_action.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A lever action rifle used briefly in "South by Southwest". Possibly the same one Gibbs uses?]]
[[Image:GCBC_AK74_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Maybe an AKS-74, based on the magazine?]]

Given that AK type rifles were used by all the other terrorists, chance are good it's one of the many types. And the Ziva caps are listed as a Colt Python on the main page, though the listing lacks screencaps. Also you may want better quality screencaps if you want to put any of those on the page. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't have anything better. If anyone else does or can get them it'd be great. That's why I put them here instead. -[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 17:23, 19 August 2010

==Ziva's rifle in 4x14: Blowback==
[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Not a SL8, maybe a Remington 700 or something? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 07:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]
Maybe it's a Remington AICS, do you have any other screenshots? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 08:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|How's this? Didn't think there was a shot from farther out, I paying attention to the wrong screen when this appeared. Still not very good though. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]

Yeah, it looks a Remington 700PSS.--[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 09:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

the episode "recoil" wasnt in s6 it was the 3rd last episode of season 5

== Ziva's Knife ==

What kind of tac knife does Ziva use? It looks like a SOG Tsunami to me, but were those in production when she first appeared (around Season 3's "Silver War")?

It's listed on BladeForums as a Cold Steel Kobun. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

== Frank's Kimber ==

I've been watching for some time now, and have only seen Frank's in 3 episodes. All of these episodes hes' used his Kimber is it just a coincidence or is that his signature weapon like James Bond's is the Walther, and that Dirty Harry's is the .44? [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 00:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

: I wouldnt call it 'signature', but rather his main sidearm. Bond and Dirty Harry had it A LOT and even people who know diddly squat about guns could tell who had a 44 magnum. Franks' Kimber has only been in a few episodes, and we still arent sure what kind of Kimber it is.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 04:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

== McGee is left-handed ==

Is this problematic when using a SIG pistol?

Only when he wants to use the de-cocker...everything else works just fine.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 20:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, McGee is left handed. Like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

:The de-cocker is a bit of a problem, the slidelock can also be a bit of an issue depending on the size of the shooter's hands. My fingers are a little to long to easily use the P22X slidelock, but I'd imagine that someone with slightly smaller hands could manage it with relative ease.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 22:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

My hands are a little on the larger side, even being a woman (im 5'10") but ive never had an issue using a Sig left handed. Yes, its not as ergonomically sound as right handed but i can shoot left handed without much issue. -MissySummers-

==Revolvers==
I separated the revolvers from the pistols in the handgun section to make the page easier to digest. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

:- I don't think it hurts anything. Nice idea, good job. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

==Pm12==
The mexican dude used a pm12 of some sort in the latest episode, couldn't distinguish what exactly.

You mean the Beretta M12? I know, I added it. Anyone know what the Mexican drug-dealer lady had?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 19:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

:I'm assuming you mean this? And her goons were using 551's. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-Paloma-Pistol-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Not a clue.]]

Thats a magnum research micro eagle.
-k9870

Gibbs had that double-barrel shotgun for a second or two as well, and there was a pretty good shot of Franks' Kimber too. --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]]

:Should we put that screencap in the main page? [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

No, is very obviously bootleg, which is against site rules. It's been less than a week, so unless you can show me where on the official site it came from, it's bootleg and not allowed on the main page. When the DVD set comes out, it's cool. (Can we screen cap episodes that are available on the CBS webpage?)--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 16:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a very high probability that most, if not all, screen caps from active TV seasons are "bootlegs". The only "legit" options are iTunes and Hulu, the later doesn't meet quality requirements in most peoples eyes. The former is expensive when you already plan on buying the entire season when it's on Blu-ray or DVD. Also, I replaced it with what I believe is an iTunes downloaded version. (I did it on my mum's friends computer, there's no watermarks or anything.) I also got other HD caps from the episode aswell. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

==MP-9==
Not to be picky, but should we have the MP-9 from "Legend: Part II" on here as well, since we have the SIG SG 552s and Glock 17 from that episode as well? --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 11: 53, 26 September 2010
:Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

==Jericho 941==
Is this a Jericho 941 or another Desert Eagle?
[[Image:NCIS34 502.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

Neither. The trigger guard has a curve to it; both Eagles have straight guards. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Beretta Cheetah springs to mind. [[User:Noe|Noe]] 11:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

That was my first thought, but the slide isn't the right shape at the front. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 11:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

CZ-83

It looks a lot like a Makarov PM, or the hungaran variant

When Faatin Amal starts to put the pillow over Namir Eschel's face, the pistol is a suppressed Makarov PM, but after Eschel dies, the pistol looks like a CZ-83. Can anyone confirm that othern than myself?--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 08:26, 6 November 2011 (CST)

== Ziva's backup in "Jack Knife" ==

What compact pistol did Ziva carry in Season 7's "Jack Knife"? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS7 33.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like an AMT Backup. Whether it is the .45 ACP, 9mm, or .380 is beyond me. Can't see the barrel diameter.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

==Sniper rifle used in "The Bone Yard"==
Can anyone ID the sniper rifle used in Season 1's "The Bone Yard"? It's the rifle used by the mob hitman. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Ben41. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 14:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS2 60.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

==Suppressed Glock in "Designated Target"==
Can anyone ID the exact model of suppressed Glock that was used by one of the Burundian death squad members?

==Photo of Webley==
Here's the screencap of the Webley revolver used in the recent NCIS episode.

[[Image:Webley revolver NCIS.jpg|250px]]

Feel free to use it to correct the article if any. Thanks. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 23:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

:I think that might actually be an Enfield No.2 going by the caliber... I'll have to watch the episode again.

:: I see. NCIS refers to it as a Webley. But they can be wrong. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm just a bit ticked off that the Royal Marine Major claims to keep one in his flat in London. You know, what with private ownership of handguns being all but illegal in Britain. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
: Oh Go bark at the moon.--[[User:SAMBAMA|SAMBAMA]] 17:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Antique firearm collectors in the United Kingdom ARE allowed to buy and sell pieces for their collections. Having said that, i'm not very familiar with webley revolvers. Are they old enough to be considered 'antique'?--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 17:41, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== editing page ==

In order to edit the page, you need to be a registered user. If you are not, you can make recommendations for changes on this discussion page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Forend isn't a word, and as far as I know lights are always mounted fore, not hind. I recommend a wholesale removal of the word forend without replacement.

== Kahr P9/K9 ==

The section on the Kahr P9 contains the statement: "The P9 is similar to the K9 but it has the +1 magazine." This is incorrect. The P9 and K9 are both 7+1 guns in stock configuration and their magazines are interchangeable. The P9 has a polymer frame and the K9 has a stainless steel frame. The P9 can be seen on Kahr's website here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-P9.asp], and the K9 can be seen here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K9.asp]. You can see both come standard with a 7 round magazine.

==Borin's SIG in "Ships in the Night"==
The subcompact SIG that CGIS Special Agent Abigail Borin had in her purse looked like either a Stainless Steel SIG P230 or a Stainless Steel SIG P232. Can anyone make a positive ID? Add a screencap, too, when you make the ID.--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 18:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

==Gibbs' Suppressed Gun in "Judgment Day" Flashback==
I believe that the suppressed gun that Gibbs used to assassinate Anatoli Zukov in the flashback in Judgment Day Part 1 & 2 and again in a flashback in Enemies Domestic was a suppressed SIG Sauer P228.
P.S. When Gibbs shot Zukov, he fired three shots. Two into Zukov's chest and one in his head. Execution-style. Please note the same execution style shooting in Brothers In Arms. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC) I would try to get a screencap, but I do not have any of the NCIS seasons on DVD. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Was that back when he was in Paris with Jen? If so, I think it would be pretty hard to identify due to the effects they use in flashback scenes.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
::Not if you have a keen eye for detail, like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::It would make sense to use a P228, since it is their duty pistol. --[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::But I honestly do not think that there are any SIG Sauer P228's that are made to accept a suppressor. At least, none that I know of. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm sure that there are threaded barrels availiable for the P228. Probably not as much now, since the P228 isn't in production anymore :( but back when that scene took place I'm sure they were availiable.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 21:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::These were the first two results when I used Yahoo! Search for threaded barrels for the SIG Sauer P228.
::::::http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-p229-replacement-barrel-9mm-threaded.html
::::::http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/ShowProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=29&productid=311

:::::::::It doesn't matter if there are externally threaded barrels available for the P228; any movie pistol can take a suppressor because the barrel has to be threaded internally in order to accept the blank-firing adapter (BFA). Fake suppressors can be added simply by using an attachment that screws into the barrel's internal threading after the blank conversion has been done. This is why you routinely see characters in movies screwing suppressors onto pistols that do not have externally threaded barrels. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 11:00, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== Henry Rifle in Season 6 "South by Southwest" ==

Just saw this episode on TV and the Henry rifle is mis-classified as a Winchester Model 1873. The two are very close in construction, but the rifle referred to as "the Henry" from the show is indeed a Henry 30-30. You have to look close during the show but the rifle Gibbs uses has an Octagon barrel which is only used in Henry rifles.

== Unknown MG found by Malachi ==

I think this thing might be an M240, judging by the heat shield. Still not sure why it's got an EoTech on it, though. [[User:Raven|Raven]] 06:56, 9 March 2011 (MSK)

== Tony's Gun in Baltimore ==

I of course don't have screen caps and maybe somebody out there already does...
The gun Tony carried while working for Baltimore P.D. looks to be a Colt Commander or the like. Black grips, probably not full 5-inch barrel, and possible novak rear sight. Just wondering if Anybody else caught that. [[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]
::I definitely agree it is a 1911 variant with novak sights, but I think it did have a full length barrel. I could be wrong though UPDATE: Just got around to looking at it again, definite novak sights and no slant in the slide serrations (none in the front).User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:45, 6 May 2011 (CDT)

The page says its a Gold Cup National Match but i dont think it looks anything like it. Maybe a customized Series 70? -Missy

:Definitely not a Gold Cup, but I don't really know what it could be. Springfield Armory of some kind? For know I am moving it to "Unidentified 1911".--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 18:16, 20 November 2011 (CST)

If you look at the picture below, it appears to have a full length guide rod system similar to that found on compact Springfield 1911s. I disagree with JazzBlackBelt's assessment of the barrel length; it looks to be of no more than 4 inches in length. Could it be springfield Champion model of some sort? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 21:04, 8 December 2011 (CST)

:: This is what i can see from the screen shots out there. It appears to have a beavertail grip safety, a skeletonized hammer, a full length guide rod, straight cocking serrations in the rear, and novak style sights. The rest of the gun is obscured.

[[Image:NCISS8 26.jpg|thumb|700px|none|DiNozzo draws his Colt in Season 8's "Baltimore".]]

==Unidentified 1911==
An unidentified 1911 is the sidearm of Baltimore P.D. Detective Anthony DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) in Season 8's "Baltimore".
[[Image:NCISS8 24.jpg|thumb|700px|none|In a flashback, DiNozzo holds his Colt as a Baltimore PD detective.]]
[[Image:NCISS8 26.jpg|thumb|700px|none|DiNozzo draws his Colt in Season 8's "Baltimore".]]

== Frank's SW1911==
In "Pyramid" when we get the shot of Franks' SW1911, the slide reads SW1911'''PD''', and there are no rails on the frame. Doesn't the only full-length barrel SW1911PD have rails? I couldn't find a 5" barrel PD with no rails.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:39, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== DVD Cover ==

Do you think we should update the DVD Cover pictures to the latest (season 8)? Here it is to decide if you like it or not.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:52, 12 August 2011 (CDT)
[[Image:NCISDVDCoverSeason8.jpg|thumb|none|250px|NCIS- Season 8 (2010-2011)]]

== 9x03 "The Penelope Papers" ==

In the latest episode - 9x03, ''The Penelope Papers'' - there was something described as a Vietnam-era prototype carbon-fibre pistol. Is this an actual gun, or was it made up? The microchips in the caterpillar (self-replicating, no less) were dreadfully fake, but in a world that includes the gyrojet and the Krummlauf... well, I wouldn't put anything past wartime weapons tech.

So, anyone have any ideas? Fictional prop, or little-known prototype? [[User:Awmperry|Awmperry]] 12:47, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

: Probably a prop from actual pistols. Not sure if we should put it up. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 20:55, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

::I think we should, it was a pistol after all and this site usually adds weapons even if they are mocked up. Looked like a CZ variant to me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:47, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:NCIS-BLACKHAND.jpg|thumb|500px|none|The "Black Hand". --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:38, 13 October 2011 (CDT)]]

Hmmmm... could be a mocked up HK45 or Mk 23, but I honestly have NO ideas--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 15:07, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

: Leaning on the former there mate. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 19:56, 13 October 2011 (CDT)
:: Grip definitely looks more HK45-ish. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 03:33, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
::: It is an IMI / IWI SP-21 Barak pistol. [[User:SgtRonin|SgtRonin]] 05:36, 06 November 2011 (CDT)

==9x04 "Enemy on the Hill"==

Got the photo of the two snipers. One of them's an AW rifle. I'm not on the other rifle. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 01:57, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

==Splitting the article to seasons==

Some of the long articles have been like 24 and Ultimate Force so far with Hawaii Five-0 following it. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 00:39, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

It's going to be a little tougher since this show is already in its 9th season. It didn't seem that they used a lot of different weapons each season like Hawaii Five-0. The agents all still use the SIG and they don't go on a lot of raids using more than their sidearms. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:45, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ugh, what is this, season-splitting week? First H-50 which I can understand, but now NCIS? It doesn't really need it, does it?--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 03:28, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:[[Stargate: SG1]] got season split despite mostly using the same weapons from season to season. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 06:09, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

== Additional Screenshots ==

[[Image:NCIS 005.JPG|thumb|none|500px|In the Season 2 episode "Chained", Gibbs pulls his P228.]]
[[Image:NCIS 007.JPG|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo with his P228 in the Season 3 episode "Bait".]]
[[Image:NCIS 008.JPG|thumb|none|500px|Ziva David ([[Cote de Pablo]]) draws her P228 in Season 3's "Ravenous".]]
[[Image:NCISS3 001.jpg|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) with his P228 in Season 3's "Switch".]]

Talk:Burn Notice

2011-12-14T23:07:06Z

StarSummers: /* New Guns */

==New Guns==
The Liberian Warlord Kamba uses some SIG variant in Season 5 Episode 15 – Necessary Evil

: You mean this?
[[File:BNCustomSIG.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like a heavily customized P226 with a manual safety and flash compensator. Maybe a 220? I dunno, the markings make me unsure. Definitely an interesting creature. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 19:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It has some, interesting Sig like contours, specifically the rear of the slide and frame, look a lot like the Sig P220/226 but the rest of the pistol doesnt really resemble it at all. There doesnt appear to be a slide release in the usual "Sig" spot, and the take down lever is completely different. As well the hammer seems to be milled as a DAO type hammer and the frame has a full length dust cover. It looks like it has a ramp rear sight and some sort of manual slide safety or decocker. Not that i have the foggiest clue what it might be, but for some reason i dont think its any type of Sig. -MissySummers-
:The gun it looks most like to me is a [[Walther P88|Walther P88 Compact]]. It isn't one of those though, but maybe it is a gun based on it? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:42, 14 December 2011 (CST)
:the take down lever, slide mounted safety and slide release are all in the right spots for a P88, but the slide is completely different. Maybe its an airsoft gun thats based on the P88? we know those get changed around all the time. -MissySummers-
::It took some searching, but I found it. Is is an unmodified TiSAS (Trabzon Silah Sanayi AŞ) Zigana Sport, a Turkish made pistol which I believe originates from a Walther P88 clone. It is imported into the US as the American Tactical FS9, shown below:
::[[File:Zigana Sport import FS9.jpg|thumb|400px|none|American Tactical FS9 (US import version of the TiSAS Zigana Sport - 9x19mm]]
::Apparently it is quite popular with IPSC shooters due to a light trigger pull, built in compensator and cooling vents. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:54, 14 December 2011 (CST)
:::Ahhhh very cool! thanks for the research Commando! it was bothering me haha, i spent the better part of the day looking for that damn thing, trying to figure out what it was. Its an interesting pistol thats for sure. -MissySummers-

Not sure about this sniper rifle in Episode 16. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:02, 2 December 2011 (CST)
[[File:BurnS5 304.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

I'd say that is a Sako TRG? Likely the 7.62mm TRG-22. Also, Fiona uses the Grendel SRT to cover Mike's meeting with Anson while Jesse acts as the spotter. --[[User:Devang.home47|Devang.home47]] 22:48, 2 December 2011 (CST)

I believe you're right with the SAKO. Thanks. __[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:24, 3 December 2011 (CST)

==USA Commercial==
In the USA Network commercial entitled "What Grenade?" promoting both [[Burn Notice]] and White Collar, Fiona ([[Gabrielle Anwar]]) is shown to have several weapons in her purse.
[[File:KahrM9BN.JPG|thumb|none|500px|The K9 Fiona set on the restaurant table, after digging for her ringing cell phone in her purse.]]
[[File:GrenadeBN.JPG|thumb|none|500px|"What Grenade?" A [[Mk 2 hand grenade]] (Pineapple Fragmentation) rolls out of Fiona's purse.]]

==Production and Behind the Scenes Images==
[[File:Berettasambn.JPG|thumb|300px|none|Sam ([[Bruce Campbell]]) holds his Beretta as he waits for Mike to take a swing in S05E05 "Square One"]]
[[File:Samberettabnshooting.JPG|thumb|300px|none|Sam fires his Beretta at the in-flight golf ball over the bay.]]

[[File:BNSIG552.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Michael stretches with his SIG SG 552 before covering Fi in S5E7 "Besieged:]]
[[File:Bnpic3.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Michael entering the compound with his SIG 552 in "Besieged"]]
[[File:Bnpic4.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Sam holding Mike's rifle in his right hand.]]
[[File:Agent Pierce.JPG|thumb|none|300px|In Season 5's "Dead to Rights", Agent Dani Pearce holds a SIG on Sam. "You think we'd pull a stunt like that for fun?!"]]

==Additional Images==
[[File:Hkcenterofstorm.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Another view of Cole and his P30]]
[[File:Bncap5.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[File:Hkcenterofstormangle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

==Lol Wut?==
Relocated this from the main page. It made even less sense before I cleaned up the spelling and grammar errors: "I know that in the new Burn Notice episode "Question & Answer," a thug uses a Colt Diamondback but I don't know how to add it. Will someone do it for me? It is "Double Down" look it up." Whatever, dood. --[[User:DOHC Holiday|DOHC Holiday]] 04:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

==Formatting==
This page's formatting was really atrocious, so I did quite a bit of editing. I really don't want to see that happen again, y'all.

Anyway, I have the Pilot episode of this show on my laptop now, so I will screencap it in the near future, and maybe buy some more episodes on iTunes for the other guns. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 03:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Yea...I'm doing some work too and your kinda screwing up my practice here. No hard feelings, but i got it and you take it from here. (The Winchester)

:Oh, OK. Well, this page's formatting has actually been pretty bad for a while now. Anyway, for practice, I would recommend hitting the "Edit" button on other people's pages to study how formatting was done. I'm also in the habit of recycling my own code when it comes to inserting gun entries on a page (i.e. if I see a movie with an MP5A3, the first thing I do is go to a movie page I know has MP5A3s in correct format, cut and paste all of the text for the gun entry, paste it in my page, and edit the text as necessary to conform to my new page).

::yea, i've been doing that, but i think i'm starting to get better at it. Thanks for the advice though. -Winchester

::Hey what was the revolver used by the security guy to kill Chandler in the latest episode? It looks like a Smith and Wesson Model 29 but I'm not sure. MW

:Well, i have the 1st season on dvd and i could do it in the future. i have a few movies that im still committed to, so it might be a while. [[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]

A molotov cocktail isn't a firearm, so I've removed it. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 08:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I just finished watching the premier episode of Season 3 on USA and noted usage of an M4A1 and an M203 on the page. The 203 definitely wasn't a Cobray, but since it wasn't actually used, I figure it could most likely have been an airsoft version. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

WOWWWEEEE. I just did a ton of work on this. I made a bunch of errors because it took me like four hours, but I think I fixed them all. I apologize for the relatively low quality of my screen caps, but they are DVR downloads from TV, and not very high quality TV. Does anybody have the HD version? Or the DVD? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 00:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:One more thing, there is a sniper rifle used by Fiona in one episode, that I can not put my finger on. Here is the image.
[[Image:BNfionaRifle.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Fiona shoots some dudes with some rifle.]]
--[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 00:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Looks to me like a Browning Automatic Rifle, that civilian one that's not actually the B.A.R.-protoAuthor

:I do in fact have HD versions of many episodes on my back-up external drive and have meaning to upload for a while, but right now, I'm juggling a whole bunch of different things (including IMFDB pages). At some point, I plan to do a huge re-vamp on this page (it was supposed to be BEFORE Season 3 started, but obviously, that didn't pan out for me). If you want a preview, take a look at some of the shots I've been meaning to upload but haven't gotten around to yet:

:[[Image:Vlcsnap-153758.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]
:[[Image:Vlcsnap-409605.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]

:Also, a few other things: Please mention the episode beneath the screenshot, and name the characters/actors who use guns if you can. I use IMDB to make sure I have my info correct. For instance, the hijacker in Episode 2.07 (the guy with the nickel Jericho) is named Gerard and is played by [[Max Martini]] (same dude who's on "The Unit"). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

he played MSG. Mack Gerhardt in the Unit. he was also in season 2 or 3 of 24 (if sum1 has any screenshots, i believe he had a MP5.

:To whoever did the Steyr Scout, how'd you identify it as such, and the BAR maybe we should rephrase it to somethign like "not to be confused the the m1918 Browning Automatic Rifle" instead of calling it a civie version since they are two different firearms.-[[User:RedJedRevolver|RedJedRevolver]]

:I'm beginning to think that the Steyr scout, isn't. The Barrel is not fluted and maybe a little thick, the bolt handle is different, and im doubting the reciever, and the stock is not a Steyr's. -[[User:RedJedRevolver|RedJedRevolver]]
::I looked at it again, you're right. I mostly guessed on that anyway. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 06:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Whoever put the gun that Michael used in the pilot episode to get rid of the drug dealer as a Jericho/Baby Eagle needs to get their eyes checked. That's definetly not a Jericho. I want to say it's a smith and wesson but don't know which model. Here's the image I got

[[Image:Gun pilot.JPG|thumb|none|600px|]]

It is either a S&W 4006 or S&W 5906 because it exhibits the double stack bulge. I'm leaning towards the 5906 because of the hooked trigger guard.[[Special:Contributions/96.32.185.136|96.32.185.136]] 22:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm removing the ones that are under the Jericho section that are wrong. --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 00:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to the party but that looks like a S&W 645 to me because of the exposed screws. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 12:31, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

It's great to know I'm not seeing things :) I've always thought that gun was either a 645 or an earlier (I think) version of the 659 with small iron sights. But I just kind of deferred to all the other guys' experience on this one and kept quiet. - [[User:TrueBeliever19|TrueBeliever19]]

== Fiona's assault rifle ==

I was looking for the model of Fiona's souped up assault rifle, that she stole from the gun-smuggler (after Michael poured gunpowder all over his face).

It can also be seen in Season 2 Ep 14 @ 40:00 - it kind of looks like an SG-500, but I don't think it is. Anyone got any ideas?

they assault rifle Fiona got from Seymour (arms dealer) was an M4A1 carbine with what appeared to be an Ampoint (possibly ACOG) anpeq-2 and some type of verticle grip. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 02:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

== Sam's Rifle ==
In the season 3 finale, Sam uses an assault rifle with a scope to get the kidnappers onto a boat and help free Fiona. Since Bruce Campbell is left handed, he covers up most of the rifle when he's shown firing. It looks like an AR derivative, either an M16A4 or SPR. I don't think it's an SR-25. They took the episode down from Hulu so I can't get a screenshot of it.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 07:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Someone is dissing Bruce Campbell firing the MP5 PDW without using the sights. I just saw a show on Discovery channel about the Iran hostage crisis and it interviewed two former SAS operatives. Its standard for them to point shoot small arms with intense practice and instinct in close quarters. Afterall Sam is a former SEAL. --~~

==Mark 23==
thanks for the compliment to whoever took the screencaps I posted on HKpro.com forums for the Mk23 sub heading. Cheers!

==sig 226==

i am pretty sure the black sig in the first picture being held by the michael character is a 228, the barrel looks short and in a later episode he mentions the 228, it seems to be his prefered weapon, and i'm not sure but i think the third one is as well,

==Errors==
2 Errors of note: The Steyr is a Remington 700. The stock isn't even close, the barrel doesn't have the twist and the scout rail isn't present. It's not a ProHunter either.

The Winchester 1300's aren't either. Note the lack of v-shaped reciever. They're Remington 870 Marine Magnum's.

I don't think they're even real. They look more like airsoft. The barrels don't seem to be connected to the magazine tube, there doesn't seem to be a safety or a pump release in the places you'd find them on a 1300 or 870. also we cannot see the ejection port which helps matters a great deal. I'm going to watch the episode again when i get home and look again. I also don't remembering them actually firing but there being an effect in its place.[I would ad my signature but I haven't been able to access my account as of late, Mercer]

==Accuracy International==

During the episode "Double Booked" Michael apparently assembles an "AI AWC" but it has a standard Remington 700 bolt handle (flat and knurled), I think it appears to be a Remington 700 with AICS which does have a folding option, anyone prove me wrong? Update: I changed the name to reflect what this is.

== Desert Eagle ==

Added Desert Eagle to handgun list. Season 3 Episode 4 "Fearless Leader". --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 17:44, 13 January 2010
(UTC)

== Beretta Tomcat==

In Season 3 Episode 8 "Friends Like These". Fiona uses a Beretta Tomcat on Natalie. Can anyone get a screenshot of this.
==SIG not Glock==
[[Image:BNglock19black.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Mike shoots at the hood of a car with another commandeered SIG.]]
This is not a Glock, look at the grip above Michael's hand. It's a Sig, though it looks too big for his 228. Maybe a 226?
This gun is a SIG non-gun. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 06:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Its a P226

==HK USP compact 45==
I deleted the bit about Fiona's walther ppk because it said that it was the gun Michael used to shoot Strickler. That is wrong Mike uses Fiona's HK USP compact and that is what she leaves at his house.

on the topic of HK USPs what kind is Seymour (arms dealer) seen using when he pulls it on Mike. the barrel looks to small to be a .45 but it appeared to be under HK USP .45

==Fiona's M1==
At the end of the episode when Sam is seen disposing of the weapons it is not a stretch to assume he kept some of them for their use, explaining where Fiona got the rifle.
''The M-1A is a Springfield Armory weapon designed for civilian use, because of this the rifle is much more likely to be the M-1A since it is a Civvie version. It is NOT an EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle)the barrel is too long to be the EBR, which was designed for DMR as well as CQB. It is more likely the EMR (Enhanced Marksman Rifle) which has a longer barrel.''
 

:''The "Family Business" M-1A appears to be a SOPMOD conversion (note the slightly different stock and a lack of a front iron sight) instead of the EMR/EBR Fiona uses in "Turn and Burn."

Yes, there is a implied subplot, that they only disposed of some excess weapons, such as norincos, and some assault rifles and assorted small arms that came in huge crates. --Сергей Титов

==Fiona's rifle==
What is the rifle Fiona uses to shoot Carla with?

I think it's the BAR she used earlier in the series.
[[Image:BurnS2 2063.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]
Doesn't BAR stand for : Browning AUTOMATIC Rifle? The rifle in the image clearly has a bolt handle. Rob the Fiend
it's a different BAR. Not the ww2 rifle

I know it's not the WW2 rifle, read this: http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=002B&catalog_=B

::You are right. Definitely NOT the BAR Safari, being that rifle is a semiautomatic and she does have a bolt action visible in the pic. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 17:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

==S3Ep13==
This is probably the best yet! Man Burn Notice is awesome. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

== AWM Season 3 Episode 11 ==

Toward the end Fiona pulls out what I believe is an Arctic Warfare Magnum.

Yes she does. she pulls it our of a suitcase in a hotel room that was going to be to cover Michael during his meeting with Gilroy. It has a sideways folding stock too. I don't remember, I think it might have been suppressed too. --Сергей Титов 17:35, Sep. 30 2011

== Great show ==
I love this show. And Fiona is my ultimate dream girl. A knockout who you can take to the gunstore and range! But I wouldn't be able to use the old excuse of buying her a particular firearm knowing that she would never use it and I would. Not only would she use it she's probably break your arm if you tried to take it! What a woman.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:Heh, right on. "Honey! I got you a S&W in .44! The recoil might be a bit much for you though, I'll just use it inste-*CRACK* AUUUUGHHGGGG!" --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

ha ha that funny . but id rather hang with michael . i like him . maybe pick up a few things . fight moves , learn to speak russian , and some super cool
spy stuff. im happy its on tonight. simmons 8492 definitely agree!! --Сергей Титов

== CZ 75BD ==

In season 3 episode 6 "the hunter" Michael and his new friend John Beck use a CZ 75BD pistol.
[[Image:Bn1.jpg|thumb|none|400px]] [[Image:Bn2.jpg|thumb|none|400px]] [[Image:Bn3.jpg|thumb|none|400px]]

==BNS4==
Damn I love this show. Season 4 started out with a BANG!!!!! [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

damn right brother , i love this show so much . simmons 8492

==Khan's Gun==

what was kahn using in s4e2? im thinking fn fnp

[[ Image:Screencap.jpg|thumb|none|400px ]]

That would be a Walther p99AS in what could be a 9mm or a 40S&W. [[Spades of Columbia]]

: Nope. [[Smith & Wesson SW99]], with a titanium or hard-chromed slide. --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 18:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

you are absolutely correct on that Sir, tip of the hat to ya, good eye on the front slide surrations. [[Spades of Columbia]]

==What are these==

these guns look really dressed up

[[ Image:Bns4.jpg|thumb|none|400px]]

Heckler and Koch SL8 with suppressors

-Double Agent M

Whats with the bent up areas under the scopes

- Just a somewhat unconventional frame design.

[[Image:HK-SL8.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Heckler & Koch SL8 target match with 10 round magazine - 5.56x45mm.]]

[[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

So...what was the Gun that Josh pulled on the crooked invester in the most recent episode? It was Sam's buddy that Michael dissarmed at one point.[[Spades of Columbia]]

Screenies [[Image:IMFDB1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Resized the screenies..]]

[[Image:IMFDB2.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

I'm thinking a shiny Sig sauer p22xr?

looks like a non gun

Wow, fricking huge screens. It is neither a SIG or a non gun, but a Taurus PT940. Probably the same one used in the other bank episode.

Sorry for the huge screenies. From what i can see on taurus website they dont make the pt940 stainless with rail. Sure it could be aftermarket or the black could have been removed. But still the pt940 with rail has 2 notches in the rail and from what i can tell this gun dosnt. I am no taurus fan neither a taurus knower on the other hand.

It could be the 9mm version of the PT940. I think it is called the model 911 maybe? I know that the Taurus 9mm version comes with rails. [[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

:It's a PT911 or 940 (more likely the 911). And yes, Taurus does make those pistols with rails now. Their web site may not be updated, but I just saw a PT940 with a rail frame for sale at a gun show last weekend. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:03, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

== Original CZ 75... ==

In Season 3 Episode 14, the Polish agent at the lighthouse pulls what I believe is an original CZ 75 (pre B). I don't know how to upload screen caps, but if someone else wants to confirm this, it's at 4:41 in the episode. - [[User:WATYF|WATYF]]

I'm sure it's a pre B, rounded trigger guard is a dead giveaway.

[[Image:Burn Notice S03 E14 CZ 75 2.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

--[[User:Noe|Noe]] 12:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==S04E06==

Does anyone know what concealed carry pistol Buddy is carrying at roughly 8 min? I can't take screenies on this computer, they just turn out all black :<.

==S04E09==
Cohen or what the dudes name was, was holding a H&K P30 on Michael

== Breaking Up By Season? ==

The show has been renewed for 2 more seasons, so it may be time to break up this page by season. The only thing is that many of the same guns are used in every season. Thoughts? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I personally dont see the point of breaking it up into seasons. Most entries are marked with season and episode so if your wondering about a specific one most web browsers have a built in search function. On Opera and Firefox to open the search box just use Ctrl+F. Noe

== ATPIAL/AN PEQ15? ==
After Michael and Fiona get out of Seymours mansion after Seymour attacks them is the "laser targeting assist" she has on her rifle an ATPIAL/AN PEQ15? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 15:21, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

No one got an answer? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 17:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

==Remington 870==

wrong....I don't know what it is. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 14:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

How is that not a Remington 870? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 15:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

A few things have always bugged me about those guns. First, the barrel doesn't seem to connect to the magazine tube the right way. Second the safety and slide release seem to be missing. Third there is no clear view of the right side of the weapon so we cannot see the ejection port. And lastly, we never see them actually fire, the "water shell" is a practical effect, not a blank round. I would bet money they're airsoft. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 16:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:Shotgun US Remington 870 'Tac Star' 12 gauge slide action shotgun.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Remington 870 with pistol grip and vertical foregrip - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:BNshotgunCase.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Seymour proudly opens his case of customized shotguns.]]
[[Image:Burn 266.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
[[Image:Burn 267.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

Something is off about them. The trigger guard doesn't look right either, the inside of them is too squared. Often times S&W 3000 shotguns are misidentified as 870s. But they aren't 3000s either. As [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] said probably airsoft.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 19:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I could be wrong, but I've a pretty strong feeling that those are actually Ithaca 37s, or at least, fakes based off the Ithaca 37, anyway. The trigger guard looks awful close and if they're Ithacas/Ithaca-based, it would also explain the lack of side ejectors. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Pin placement is wrong for Ithaca, it mostly resembles 870 but is just not right. And it's not that the ejection port doesn't exist, it's that it's not seen. The problem that makes my say airsoft is that the weapon isn't seen to function in any way aside from the practical effect for the "water round." No blank fire or weapon cycling. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 20:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
::They look like nickel plated Winchester 1300 defenders with pistol grips and standard mag tubes. And I don't think they're airsoft, if you look down the barrel of one of them in the case, you see residue from firing blanks. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

:: Winchester 1300 Defs? Bah, why didn't I think of that? [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
::- Not a 1300 either. 1300s have a single pin, and the safety button would be visible as would the slide release. And the "residue" could be just about anything, and I think its more likely to be from lighting. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 21:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

==Robert Patrick==

Robert Patrick uses the USP with the silver slide in the most recent episode. -- [[User:K|K]] 12:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

==Jessie's Rifle==

Anyone know what Jessie was using when he "shot" Micheal in the finale? --[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

It's listed on here as a Colt Model 933 but I don't think it is. If you look at the rail and the front sights it looks like a HK416 to me. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:02, 4 July 2011 (CDT)

== Not a Remington 700? ==

Is this not a Remington 700? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 04:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:BNassassinRifle.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Evelyn the assassin ([[Lucy Lawless]]) adjusts the scope on her Remington.]]
[[Image:BNassassinRifle2.jpg|thumb|none|400px|A view of the other end of the Remington: the end you would rather be behind.]]
I don't think this is correct, at least based on the picture of the 700PSS provided. Look at the bolt handle, not what on a factory Remington 700. And the stock is too glossy and smooth looking to be a tactical rifle

== H&K P30 or HK45? I think this gun is misidentified. ==

This looks more like a Heckler and Koch P30 than an HK45. They are very similar looking except the external safety on the HK45, the bottom of the magazine is different, and the HK45 is larger.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/4/41/BurnS4_309.jpg/500px-BurnS4_309.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/c/c8/HH45.jpg/400px-HH45.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/1/12/HK-P30.jpg/350px-HK-P30.jpg

(I tried to post the pictures but couldn't get it to work). Notice the difference in the bottom of the magazine. The HK45 is also a full-size, the P30 is a compact. Notice the slight difference in the length of the slide. The gun in his hand looks more like a compact, and the slide looks shorter than the HK45. I'm new, so I'm not going to change anything myself. Just a suggestion.

SnakeDoc

Its definately A P30.. you can tell by the trigger guard

== New sidearm for Weston in Season 4? ==

The attached picture from Burn Notice may show Weston carrying an HK P30 9mm. (Again, I can't figure how to embed the picture).

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/113/1135169/burn-notice-20101117073255292_640w.jpg

It is a publicity still from the latest episode (aired in late November). If I recall the episode correctly, he drew the gun on his own (didn't recover it from someone else) and used it to shoot a fake chemical weapon cannister filled with tear gas and pesticide.
It looks like an H&K to me ... too small to be an HK45, not square enough to be a USP Compact. I'm pretty sure it isn't Weston's usual Sig, though I am unsure if it represents a permanent change in sidearm of choice.

Hope not, SIG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HK, like is way better.

Its definatetly a P30. Personally i think a new gun would be good the P228 is outdated and is used by everybody in most T.V shows so a new gun like the P30 would be good.. OR stay with Sig and get the P229 E2

honestiy , i like the P228 with him . its been with him since the pilot so i say , if it aint broke dont fix it simmons 8492

Its his signature weapon, seriously signature weapons cant be changed.

:Yep, it's official: Michael Weston has switched to the H&K P30 as his new sidearm. I was a bit disappointed, as I hoped he would just get a newer SIG (i.e. the P229R, SP2022, or P250), but P30 it is. I figured it was inevitable at some point he was gonna switch sidearms. Actually, I'm surprised he had the 228 for as long as he did, considering the assortment of new(er) pistols that have been used by other characters on the show (like the Walther PPS, FN Five-Seven USG, and Springfield XD, among others). I would have figured it's a rule in Hollywood that the protagonist always has to have the best gun. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 04:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

XD was only briefly shown in one episode, I believe 5-7 was too. Look at Sam, conealing a beretta the whole series, Fiona likes her ppk and michael had a SIG. Now I have to see a HK.......Sigh. A PPS may be a better choice for a new gun for Fiona. And the 92 is a beast, maybe something SIG sized for Sam would be appropriate, hes also a former seal so it would make sense.

: Signature weapons can change occasionally. Jack Bauer switched from a Sig to an H&K USP Compact between Seasons 2 and 3 of 24 (he used the USPc for the remaining seasons). I don't mind the change. I actually like the P30 quite a bit personally, so its good to see it getting a bit more publicity. -- SnakeDoc

I hate HK, I mean, a rail that only takes their special accessories, instead of a standard rail everybody else uses, since there you know, too good for a streamlight or what not, and they got a mag release on the trigger guard instead of the grip. The sig is compact, accurate, reliable, and has the ergos right.

-k9870

: The P30 has a standard rail.

-looks like the 228 is back in the finale ;)

Agreed the Sig is back for the finale show down... I agree i'd love to see him make the practical and logical step to a Sig P229R DAK... because in a adreneline situation who wants to remember long pull short pull---ST0NEFIELD

::Me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:26, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

-Can we get some pictures of him using a P30 because I can't find any

:Who keeps deleting the line about Michael Westen changing his sidearm to a P30? I added it once, it got deleted, I added it again, and it is deleted again. I am going to add it again (along with some pics), and I ask that whoever keeps deleting it stops. Thanks.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:05, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

He has reverted back to the HK P30 as of the first episode of the fifth season.

Did any other Sig-Sauer fans feel a little sad that Michael Weston left us for HK? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 13:57, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Yes, me! I was not happy at all. The P228 seemed to fit him so perfectly. I'm not a fan of HKs overpriced stuff. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 16:44, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Don't get me wrong, the P30 feels GREAT in the hand, but its too damn expensive. Same with the USP, feels okay, but is way too overpriced. SIG-Sauer is still expensive, but you get what you pay for. BTW, if you didn't know I am a DIE-HARD SIG-Sauer fan (except for the new E2 or whatever, hate that) and I wish they would have given him a P229R or even a SIG-Pro, idc which model of SIG-Pro. Both in DA/SA of course. I could rant on SOOO much longer, but I have to stop myself.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:54, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Isn't the E2 now pretty much what the standard for what a P226 looks like now?--[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 03:25, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yes, and it makes me SOOOO mad that they didn't at least keep the standard grips availiable for people that prefer them. Plus, they changed the slide of the P229 to where it looks just like a P228R.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:03, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

It's only like when they made all of the pistols with a rail. I hate the railed frame it looks so ugly. I'd prefer them to offer at least a "classic" version with original grips and no rail. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 14:14, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

:I like both frames, and I think they should have kept all three as an option. You could choose unrailed or railed, then choose the grips (classic P226, newer style, or E2).--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 11:08, 13 July 2011 (CDT)

::Or... You can just buy an older version. :I - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:20, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

Sounds good. Let's contact SIG Sauer with our idea lol. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 06:36, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

I thought it was a nice change to see him with a new sidearm. Its like when they changed weapons in Stargate from the MP5 to the P90

Finally the SIG has been completely phased out in Season 5 Episode 5 'Square One'. Fiona melts it with thermite(?). --[[User:Devang.home47|Devang.home47]] 21:53, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

That wasn't his P228. That was a P226 that was used to try and set Michael up. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:51, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

I can't be too sure, but it seems from the recent episodes that Michael is back with the Sig. I haven't been able to pause the show on any clear, not blurry shots. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 08:19, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

In the last episode there was an overhead shot that when I saw it I thought to myself that it looked like a SIG. Hopefully he's seen sense and dropped the HK and gone back to the SIG. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 08:30, 17 August 2011 (CDT)
:I'm not sure about the last episodes, but in the preview for the next one he is with the HK. Hopefully he will simply alternate between them.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 10:53, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

I still don't understand where a burnt spy would get a HK P30 from, or why he would get one when his P228 was fine. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:40, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

:: Forgive my ignorance of all things HK pistols, but why would it be difficult for him to get a P30? Or why would it be more difficult than having a Sig? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 10:41, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

Because the P30 is a very new gun and HK guns are ridiculously expensive. The P228 has been around for years. Was there any explanation where he got the P30 from? I'm sure he got the P228 from a bad guy. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:22, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

: The P30 first showed up as Cole's sidearm in S4's Center of the Storm. Cole threw Mike's SIG into an electrified puddle while having him as a hostage so he lost his P228 at that point. By the end of the episode they were working together so it's not unreasonable that Cole gave Mike his P30 for ruining his SIG. The P30 was then used by Mike several episodes later. I'm both an H&K and a SIG fan, but I'm not a fan of the P30. --[[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 19:40 , 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh, I forgot about that episode. I don't mind the HK USP or the HK .45 but I don't like the P30 either. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:18, 22 August 2011 (CDT)

== Pistol in S04E15 "Brotherly Love" ==

Did anybody notice the gun that Michael gave to Sam in the loft, the one that he said that Fiona had modified to fire 3-round bursts? It only showed it for a second, so I didn't get a good lock at it, and I was just wondering if anybody here did and recognized it --[[User:THizzle80|THizzle80]]

HK VP70, I think. He probably meant Fiona altered it to fire burst without the stock attached.--[[User:Mr-Jigsaw|Mr-Jigsaw]] 07:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Yup, that does indeed look like what I saw. Never even heard of that pistol before, and I consider myself somewhat of a gun nut, so it's cool to learn about a new gun. It's kind of neat how they build the selector switch into the stock mount. Thanks for the info! --[[User:THizzle80|THizzle80]]

Do you think there is any reason they chose to modify a VP70 rather than just use a 93R or G18? It just seemed odd to me that they used a relatively obscure pistol for this role. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 07:26, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

:VP70 is hardly obscure, role in Aliens + first polymer handgun evar. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:53, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

::But it was best known for its role as Leon S. Kennedy's sidearm in Resident Evil 2. Thanks in no small part that it was called by its real name, aww, the good old days. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:47, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

:::I suppose you are right, it isn't that obscure to those that frequent this website. It is one of the things that makes me love this show so much; their accuracy, attention to detail and choice of equipment make it a different cut to most junk on TV these days. It is still a bit of a surprise that they chose to modify, unless this is a wink to Fi's associates and maybe Seymore, the arms dealer? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 17:31, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

I just did a bit of research on the internet and found out that the VP70M had a selector built into the detachable stock that allowed semi-auto or three round burst. So my question about why they didn't choose a burst pistol now looks a little dumb. Thanks for the comments though. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 18:53, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

== Mike's Holster ==

Anyone have any clue what holster Mike uses? You don't get a lot of good looks at it, but you get a fairly good one in Season 1's 'Unpaid Debts', when he's walking away from the screen after they kidnap the brother of the pimp. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 09:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

It changes. Ive seen an iwb, a Small of back serpa, mexican carry, etc.

==Jesse's Rifle==

Okay, dont attack me for this but i think in season 4's guilty as charged Jesse is using a HK416. Look at the gas black, Hk front sight and the lower side rails. With all the othe Hk love in series 4 it wouldnt be too abnormal to have a 416 turn up --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 14:10, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

How does one go about submitting alterations? In the Episode "Good Soldier" (S2E9) a pistol is listed here as being a S&W 459. I looked a the episode on DVD and it looks like a Kimber SIS. The forward and rear slide serrations are very distinctive.

==639==

Seth Peterson uses a 639 as opposed to a 4006. The front sight is fixed and the trigger guard is round without serrations, features of a second generation, and it also has a single stack frame.

==Beretta Cougar?==

I just noticed this in 3x13 Partners in Crime. It's the gun Michael hands Nate when he asks to keep an eye on mom though it doesn't get used in the episode. Initially I thought it was a Px4, but after brightening it looks like a Beretta Cougar.

Picture (brightened for clarity):

[[File:Burnnoticecoug.jpg]]

- IGemini - 18:40, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Yep, It's a Beretta Cougar. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 22:16, 23 June 2011 (CDT)

== The Fall of Sam Axe? ==

So, as to the new 'movie', are we making a separate page for it, or are we just adding it all to this one? Personally, I think we should make a new page, since this one is getting kinda long. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 02:53, 18 April 2011 (CDT)

Yes, since it is a separate movie, it will get a separate page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:05, 18 April 2011 (CDT)
:Okay. It's up on Hulu currently, if anyone wants to start getting screenshots. I'll go back and compile a list of weapons in a while. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 16:03, 18 April 2011 (CDT)
== MP5 (S4 Finale) ==
I am not entirely sure, but I believe that the MP5s used by Vaughn's men in the Season 4 finale (Last Stand) are of the A5 variant, based on the 3-position; collapsible stock, and the HK "3 round burst" trigger group. This can be clearly seen when Michael, Fiona, and Jesse are at the elevator shaft, talking with Vaughn; Michael's MP5 is slung, with a somewhat clear shot of the fire selector. I can upload a screenshot if necessary. --[[User:Progamer7100|Progamer7100]] 11:23, 8 May 2011 (CDT)

==Season 5==
Just watched the seasons premiere, no new guns to report all have previously been covered on the page. Wondering if the new series Suits on the same network contains any guns and deserves a page. I'm gonna watch it asap anyways (: [[User:Noe|Noe]] 15:35, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

Episode 6 has a new one to add: close to the beginning Michael takes a rifle from a sniper that is in the H&K G3 family. It seems to lack the wide selector ring of the G3, most likely an HK91. I'll have a screencap up sometime today. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 04:04 UTC, 1 August 2011

:Episode 7 had some nice toys today. Almost certain there's a bonafide G3 in this episode, you get a clear shot of the selector markings when Sam is setting one up. Jesse was also using something new today, some things make me think either a Ruger SR-556 or an HK416. I'll need a better look. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 02:06 UTC, 4 August 2011

== Spoilers: The murder weapon in Season Five ==

I'll try not to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't seen the newest episodes, but I'd like to ask something, since I'm not extremely familiar with SIG pistols, or atleast, I'm not too good at identifying them when I only get a quick look at them. Still, in one of the recent episodes, Mike heads to the CIA headquarters for a debriefing, and finds '''Spoilers!''' his contact, dead on the floor with a SIG pistol beside him. Mike melts this gun down using thermite in the next episode. Now, like I said, I'm not too good at identifying SIG pistols, but to me, it looks like a P226 or possibly a P220. Can anyone verify this and possibly grab a decent screencap? [[User:Acora|Acora]] 11:58, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:It was a P226. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 12:22, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

::Thanks for the clarification. Now, can someone get a screencap of it?

:::Um, if it means a lot to you to have a screencap of the P226 from that episode, then you have no right to demand that anyone else provide it. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:31, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

== Season Breaks 2011 ==

The series is currently in Season 5, so it may be time to break up this page by season. The only thing is that many of the same guns are used in every season. Thoughts? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 04:25, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

I personally dont see the point of breaking it up into seasons. Most entries are marked with season and episode so if your wondering about a specific one most web browsers have a built in search function. On Opera and Firefox to open the search box just use Ctrl+F. Noe

:I find it funny how you two had this exact conversation, word for word, around this time last year. Back on topic, I really don't think it is necessary, and I personally hate shows that are broken up by season, but if you feel the need to, go ahead. Expect LOTS AND LOTS of repeats though.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 10:29, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

DONT BREAK THE PAGE!!! WE WANT ONE PAGE ONLY FOR BURN NOTICEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! -- Сергей Титов

::OK, I personally don't care what the anonymous users say. This page is too long and should have been split up a long time ago (same with ''[[Chuck]]''). And to emphasize something I've said before: Overlap of guns is NOT a good reason to avoid breaking up the page. Sometimes, there are many variations on a similar platform (i.e. while the M4 appears in every season of the show, the latest season has featured M4s with different types of stocks and rail integration systems). Plus, if many different characters use the gun across several seasons, it's nice to document its use by all of them (rather than have a huge paragraph running through everyone who's used this gun or that gun). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:34, 13 December 2011 (CST)

== Kahr K9 ==

In "Friends like These" Sam has a silver Kahr K9 in his ankle holster as a backup. I believe he also shoots it over the counter at Bennett Tash during a shootout in a locksmith store. Fiona pulls a Silver Kahr K9 out of her purse in the USA commercial "What Grenade?" here's the commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0WNJx7Ys2Y Thanks Editors -- Сергей Титов

== Red dot on the Ramo RT37 ==

[[Image:BurnS4 600.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
I'm looking at the photo and I'm getting more and more certain it's a C-More sight. I can't exactly see the "slope" on the rear of the lens frame, but the lines are pretty clear. You can even see the laser housing sticking out of the rearmost part of the top. --[[User:Seriously Mike|Seriously Mike]] 15:09, 3 December 2011 (CST)

Talk:Burn Notice

2011-12-14T18:09:58Z

StarSummers: /* New Guns */

==New Guns==
The Liberian Warlord Kamba uses some SIG variant in Season 5 Episode 15 – Necessary Evil

: You mean this?
[[File:BNCustomSIG.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like a heavily customized P226 with a manual safety and flash compensator. Maybe a 220? I dunno, the markings make me unsure. Definitely an interesting creature. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 19:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It has some, interesting Sig like contours, specifically the rear of the slide and frame, look a lot like the Sig P220/226 but the rest of the pistol doesnt really resemble it at all. There doesnt appear to be a slide release in the usual "Sig" spot, and the take down lever is completely different. As well the hammer seems to be milled as a DAO type hammer and the frame has a full length dust cover. It looks like it has a ramp rear sight and some sort of manual slide safety or decocker. Not that i have the foggiest clue what it might be, but for some reason i dont think its any type of Sig. -MissySummers-
:The gun it looks most like to me is a [[Walther P88|Walther P88 Compact]]. It isn't one of those though, but maybe it is a gun based on it? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:42, 14 December 2011 (CST)
:the take down lever, slide mounted safety and slide release are all in the right spots for a P88, but the slide is completely different. Maybe its an airsoft gun thats based on the P88? we know those get changed around all the time. -MissySummers-

Not sure about this sniper rifle in Episode 16. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:02, 2 December 2011 (CST)
[[File:BurnS5 304.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

I'd say that is a Sako TRG? Likely the 7.62mm TRG-22. Also, Fiona uses the Grendel SRT to cover Mike's meeting with Anson while Jesse acts as the spotter. --[[User:Devang.home47|Devang.home47]] 22:48, 2 December 2011 (CST)

I believe you're right with the SAKO. Thanks. __[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:24, 3 December 2011 (CST)

==USA Commercial==
In the USA Network commercial entitled "What Grenade?" promoting both [[Burn Notice]] and White Collar, Fiona ([[Gabrielle Anwar]]) is shown to have several weapons in her purse.
[[File:KahrM9BN.JPG|thumb|none|500px|The K9 Fiona set on the restaurant table, after digging for her ringing cell phone in her purse.]]
[[File:GrenadeBN.JPG|thumb|none|500px|"What Grenade?" A [[Mk 2 hand grenade]] (Pineapple Fragmentation) rolls out of Fiona's purse.]]

==Production and Behind the Scenes Images==
[[File:Berettasambn.JPG|thumb|300px|none|Sam ([[Bruce Campbell]]) holds his Beretta as he waits for Mike to take a swing in S05E05 "Square One"]]
[[File:Samberettabnshooting.JPG|thumb|300px|none|Sam fires his Beretta at the in-flight golf ball over the bay.]]

[[File:BNSIG552.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Michael stretches with his SIG SG 552 before covering Fi in S5E7 "Besieged:]]
[[File:Bnpic3.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Michael entering the compound with his SIG 552 in "Besieged"]]
[[File:Bnpic4.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Sam holding Mike's rifle in his right hand.]]
[[File:Agent Pierce.JPG|thumb|none|300px|In Season 5's "Dead to Rights", Agent Dani Pearce holds a SIG on Sam. "You think we'd pull a stunt like that for fun?!"]]

==Additional Images==
[[File:Hkcenterofstorm.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Another view of Cole and his P30]]
[[File:Bncap5.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[File:Hkcenterofstormangle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

==Lol Wut?==
Relocated this from the main page. It made even less sense before I cleaned up the spelling and grammar errors: "I know that in the new Burn Notice episode "Question & Answer," a thug uses a Colt Diamondback but I don't know how to add it. Will someone do it for me? It is "Double Down" look it up." Whatever, dood. --[[User:DOHC Holiday|DOHC Holiday]] 04:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

==Formatting==
This page's formatting was really atrocious, so I did quite a bit of editing. I really don't want to see that happen again, y'all.

Anyway, I have the Pilot episode of this show on my laptop now, so I will screencap it in the near future, and maybe buy some more episodes on iTunes for the other guns. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 03:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Yea...I'm doing some work too and your kinda screwing up my practice here. No hard feelings, but i got it and you take it from here. (The Winchester)

:Oh, OK. Well, this page's formatting has actually been pretty bad for a while now. Anyway, for practice, I would recommend hitting the "Edit" button on other people's pages to study how formatting was done. I'm also in the habit of recycling my own code when it comes to inserting gun entries on a page (i.e. if I see a movie with an MP5A3, the first thing I do is go to a movie page I know has MP5A3s in correct format, cut and paste all of the text for the gun entry, paste it in my page, and edit the text as necessary to conform to my new page).

::yea, i've been doing that, but i think i'm starting to get better at it. Thanks for the advice though. -Winchester

::Hey what was the revolver used by the security guy to kill Chandler in the latest episode? It looks like a Smith and Wesson Model 29 but I'm not sure. MW

:Well, i have the 1st season on dvd and i could do it in the future. i have a few movies that im still committed to, so it might be a while. [[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]

A molotov cocktail isn't a firearm, so I've removed it. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 08:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I just finished watching the premier episode of Season 3 on USA and noted usage of an M4A1 and an M203 on the page. The 203 definitely wasn't a Cobray, but since it wasn't actually used, I figure it could most likely have been an airsoft version. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

WOWWWEEEE. I just did a ton of work on this. I made a bunch of errors because it took me like four hours, but I think I fixed them all. I apologize for the relatively low quality of my screen caps, but they are DVR downloads from TV, and not very high quality TV. Does anybody have the HD version? Or the DVD? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 00:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:One more thing, there is a sniper rifle used by Fiona in one episode, that I can not put my finger on. Here is the image.
[[Image:BNfionaRifle.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Fiona shoots some dudes with some rifle.]]
--[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 00:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Looks to me like a Browning Automatic Rifle, that civilian one that's not actually the B.A.R.-protoAuthor

:I do in fact have HD versions of many episodes on my back-up external drive and have meaning to upload for a while, but right now, I'm juggling a whole bunch of different things (including IMFDB pages). At some point, I plan to do a huge re-vamp on this page (it was supposed to be BEFORE Season 3 started, but obviously, that didn't pan out for me). If you want a preview, take a look at some of the shots I've been meaning to upload but haven't gotten around to yet:

:[[Image:Vlcsnap-153758.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]
:[[Image:Vlcsnap-409605.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]

:Also, a few other things: Please mention the episode beneath the screenshot, and name the characters/actors who use guns if you can. I use IMDB to make sure I have my info correct. For instance, the hijacker in Episode 2.07 (the guy with the nickel Jericho) is named Gerard and is played by [[Max Martini]] (same dude who's on "The Unit"). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

he played MSG. Mack Gerhardt in the Unit. he was also in season 2 or 3 of 24 (if sum1 has any screenshots, i believe he had a MP5.

:To whoever did the Steyr Scout, how'd you identify it as such, and the BAR maybe we should rephrase it to somethign like "not to be confused the the m1918 Browning Automatic Rifle" instead of calling it a civie version since they are two different firearms.-[[User:RedJedRevolver|RedJedRevolver]]

:I'm beginning to think that the Steyr scout, isn't. The Barrel is not fluted and maybe a little thick, the bolt handle is different, and im doubting the reciever, and the stock is not a Steyr's. -[[User:RedJedRevolver|RedJedRevolver]]
::I looked at it again, you're right. I mostly guessed on that anyway. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 06:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Whoever put the gun that Michael used in the pilot episode to get rid of the drug dealer as a Jericho/Baby Eagle needs to get their eyes checked. That's definetly not a Jericho. I want to say it's a smith and wesson but don't know which model. Here's the image I got

[[Image:Gun pilot.JPG|thumb|none|600px|]]

It is either a S&W 4006 or S&W 5906 because it exhibits the double stack bulge. I'm leaning towards the 5906 because of the hooked trigger guard.[[Special:Contributions/96.32.185.136|96.32.185.136]] 22:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm removing the ones that are under the Jericho section that are wrong. --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 00:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to the party but that looks like a S&W 645 to me because of the exposed screws. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 12:31, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

It's great to know I'm not seeing things :) I've always thought that gun was either a 645 or an earlier (I think) version of the 659 with small iron sights. But I just kind of deferred to all the other guys' experience on this one and kept quiet. - [[User:TrueBeliever19|TrueBeliever19]]

== Fiona's assault rifle ==

I was looking for the model of Fiona's souped up assault rifle, that she stole from the gun-smuggler (after Michael poured gunpowder all over his face).

It can also be seen in Season 2 Ep 14 @ 40:00 - it kind of looks like an SG-500, but I don't think it is. Anyone got any ideas?

they assault rifle Fiona got from Seymour (arms dealer) was an M4A1 carbine with what appeared to be an Ampoint (possibly ACOG) anpeq-2 and some type of verticle grip. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 02:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

== Sam's Rifle ==
In the season 3 finale, Sam uses an assault rifle with a scope to get the kidnappers onto a boat and help free Fiona. Since Bruce Campbell is left handed, he covers up most of the rifle when he's shown firing. It looks like an AR derivative, either an M16A4 or SPR. I don't think it's an SR-25. They took the episode down from Hulu so I can't get a screenshot of it.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 07:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Someone is dissing Bruce Campbell firing the MP5 PDW without using the sights. I just saw a show on Discovery channel about the Iran hostage crisis and it interviewed two former SAS operatives. Its standard for them to point shoot small arms with intense practice and instinct in close quarters. Afterall Sam is a former SEAL. --~~

==Mark 23==
thanks for the compliment to whoever took the screencaps I posted on HKpro.com forums for the Mk23 sub heading. Cheers!

==sig 226==

i am pretty sure the black sig in the first picture being held by the michael character is a 228, the barrel looks short and in a later episode he mentions the 228, it seems to be his prefered weapon, and i'm not sure but i think the third one is as well,

==Errors==
2 Errors of note: The Steyr is a Remington 700. The stock isn't even close, the barrel doesn't have the twist and the scout rail isn't present. It's not a ProHunter either.

The Winchester 1300's aren't either. Note the lack of v-shaped reciever. They're Remington 870 Marine Magnum's.

I don't think they're even real. They look more like airsoft. The barrels don't seem to be connected to the magazine tube, there doesn't seem to be a safety or a pump release in the places you'd find them on a 1300 or 870. also we cannot see the ejection port which helps matters a great deal. I'm going to watch the episode again when i get home and look again. I also don't remembering them actually firing but there being an effect in its place.[I would ad my signature but I haven't been able to access my account as of late, Mercer]

==Accuracy International==

During the episode "Double Booked" Michael apparently assembles an "AI AWC" but it has a standard Remington 700 bolt handle (flat and knurled), I think it appears to be a Remington 700 with AICS which does have a folding option, anyone prove me wrong? Update: I changed the name to reflect what this is.

== Desert Eagle ==

Added Desert Eagle to handgun list. Season 3 Episode 4 "Fearless Leader". --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 17:44, 13 January 2010
(UTC)

== Beretta Tomcat==

In Season 3 Episode 8 "Friends Like These". Fiona uses a Beretta Tomcat on Natalie. Can anyone get a screenshot of this.
==SIG not Glock==
[[Image:BNglock19black.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Mike shoots at the hood of a car with another commandeered SIG.]]
This is not a Glock, look at the grip above Michael's hand. It's a Sig, though it looks too big for his 228. Maybe a 226?
This gun is a SIG non-gun. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 06:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Its a P226

==HK USP compact 45==
I deleted the bit about Fiona's walther ppk because it said that it was the gun Michael used to shoot Strickler. That is wrong Mike uses Fiona's HK USP compact and that is what she leaves at his house.

on the topic of HK USPs what kind is Seymour (arms dealer) seen using when he pulls it on Mike. the barrel looks to small to be a .45 but it appeared to be under HK USP .45

==Fiona's M1==
At the end of the episode when Sam is seen disposing of the weapons it is not a stretch to assume he kept some of them for their use, explaining where Fiona got the rifle.
''The M-1A is a Springfield Armory weapon designed for civilian use, because of this the rifle is much more likely to be the M-1A since it is a Civvie version. It is NOT an EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle)the barrel is too long to be the EBR, which was designed for DMR as well as CQB. It is more likely the EMR (Enhanced Marksman Rifle) which has a longer barrel.''
 

:''The "Family Business" M-1A appears to be a SOPMOD conversion (note the slightly different stock and a lack of a front iron sight) instead of the EMR/EBR Fiona uses in "Turn and Burn."

Yes, there is a implied subplot, that they only disposed of some excess weapons, such as norincos, and some assault rifles and assorted small arms that came in huge crates. --Сергей Титов

==Fiona's rifle==
What is the rifle Fiona uses to shoot Carla with?

I think it's the BAR she used earlier in the series.
[[Image:BurnS2 2063.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]
Doesn't BAR stand for : Browning AUTOMATIC Rifle? The rifle in the image clearly has a bolt handle. Rob the Fiend
it's a different BAR. Not the ww2 rifle

I know it's not the WW2 rifle, read this: http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=002B&catalog_=B

::You are right. Definitely NOT the BAR Safari, being that rifle is a semiautomatic and she does have a bolt action visible in the pic. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 17:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

==S3Ep13==
This is probably the best yet! Man Burn Notice is awesome. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

== AWM Season 3 Episode 11 ==

Toward the end Fiona pulls out what I believe is an Arctic Warfare Magnum.

Yes she does. she pulls it our of a suitcase in a hotel room that was going to be to cover Michael during his meeting with Gilroy. It has a sideways folding stock too. I don't remember, I think it might have been suppressed too. --Сергей Титов 17:35, Sep. 30 2011

== Great show ==
I love this show. And Fiona is my ultimate dream girl. A knockout who you can take to the gunstore and range! But I wouldn't be able to use the old excuse of buying her a particular firearm knowing that she would never use it and I would. Not only would she use it she's probably break your arm if you tried to take it! What a woman.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:Heh, right on. "Honey! I got you a S&W in .44! The recoil might be a bit much for you though, I'll just use it inste-*CRACK* AUUUUGHHGGGG!" --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

ha ha that funny . but id rather hang with michael . i like him . maybe pick up a few things . fight moves , learn to speak russian , and some super cool
spy stuff. im happy its on tonight. simmons 8492 definitely agree!! --Сергей Титов

== CZ 75BD ==

In season 3 episode 6 "the hunter" Michael and his new friend John Beck use a CZ 75BD pistol.
[[Image:Bn1.jpg|thumb|none|400px]] [[Image:Bn2.jpg|thumb|none|400px]] [[Image:Bn3.jpg|thumb|none|400px]]

==BNS4==
Damn I love this show. Season 4 started out with a BANG!!!!! [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

damn right brother , i love this show so much . simmons 8492

==Khan's Gun==

what was kahn using in s4e2? im thinking fn fnp

[[ Image:Screencap.jpg|thumb|none|400px ]]

That would be a Walther p99AS in what could be a 9mm or a 40S&W. [[Spades of Columbia]]

: Nope. [[Smith & Wesson SW99]], with a titanium or hard-chromed slide. --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 18:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

you are absolutely correct on that Sir, tip of the hat to ya, good eye on the front slide surrations. [[Spades of Columbia]]

==What are these==

these guns look really dressed up

[[ Image:Bns4.jpg|thumb|none|400px]]

Heckler and Koch SL8 with suppressors

-Double Agent M

Whats with the bent up areas under the scopes

- Just a somewhat unconventional frame design.

[[Image:HK-SL8.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Heckler & Koch SL8 target match with 10 round magazine - 5.56x45mm.]]

[[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

So...what was the Gun that Josh pulled on the crooked invester in the most recent episode? It was Sam's buddy that Michael dissarmed at one point.[[Spades of Columbia]]

Screenies [[Image:IMFDB1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Resized the screenies..]]

[[Image:IMFDB2.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

I'm thinking a shiny Sig sauer p22xr?

looks like a non gun

Wow, fricking huge screens. It is neither a SIG or a non gun, but a Taurus PT940. Probably the same one used in the other bank episode.

Sorry for the huge screenies. From what i can see on taurus website they dont make the pt940 stainless with rail. Sure it could be aftermarket or the black could have been removed. But still the pt940 with rail has 2 notches in the rail and from what i can tell this gun dosnt. I am no taurus fan neither a taurus knower on the other hand.

It could be the 9mm version of the PT940. I think it is called the model 911 maybe? I know that the Taurus 9mm version comes with rails. [[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

:It's a PT911 or 940 (more likely the 911). And yes, Taurus does make those pistols with rails now. Their web site may not be updated, but I just saw a PT940 with a rail frame for sale at a gun show last weekend. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:03, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

== Original CZ 75... ==

In Season 3 Episode 14, the Polish agent at the lighthouse pulls what I believe is an original CZ 75 (pre B). I don't know how to upload screen caps, but if someone else wants to confirm this, it's at 4:41 in the episode. - [[User:WATYF|WATYF]]

I'm sure it's a pre B, rounded trigger guard is a dead giveaway.

[[Image:Burn Notice S03 E14 CZ 75 2.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

--[[User:Noe|Noe]] 12:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==S04E06==

Does anyone know what concealed carry pistol Buddy is carrying at roughly 8 min? I can't take screenies on this computer, they just turn out all black :<.

==S04E09==
Cohen or what the dudes name was, was holding a H&K P30 on Michael

== Breaking Up By Season? ==

The show has been renewed for 2 more seasons, so it may be time to break up this page by season. The only thing is that many of the same guns are used in every season. Thoughts? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I personally dont see the point of breaking it up into seasons. Most entries are marked with season and episode so if your wondering about a specific one most web browsers have a built in search function. On Opera and Firefox to open the search box just use Ctrl+F. Noe

== ATPIAL/AN PEQ15? ==
After Michael and Fiona get out of Seymours mansion after Seymour attacks them is the "laser targeting assist" she has on her rifle an ATPIAL/AN PEQ15? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 15:21, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

No one got an answer? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 17:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

==Remington 870==

wrong....I don't know what it is. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 14:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

How is that not a Remington 870? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 15:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

A few things have always bugged me about those guns. First, the barrel doesn't seem to connect to the magazine tube the right way. Second the safety and slide release seem to be missing. Third there is no clear view of the right side of the weapon so we cannot see the ejection port. And lastly, we never see them actually fire, the "water shell" is a practical effect, not a blank round. I would bet money they're airsoft. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 16:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:Shotgun US Remington 870 'Tac Star' 12 gauge slide action shotgun.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Remington 870 with pistol grip and vertical foregrip - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:BNshotgunCase.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Seymour proudly opens his case of customized shotguns.]]
[[Image:Burn 266.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
[[Image:Burn 267.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

Something is off about them. The trigger guard doesn't look right either, the inside of them is too squared. Often times S&W 3000 shotguns are misidentified as 870s. But they aren't 3000s either. As [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] said probably airsoft.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 19:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I could be wrong, but I've a pretty strong feeling that those are actually Ithaca 37s, or at least, fakes based off the Ithaca 37, anyway. The trigger guard looks awful close and if they're Ithacas/Ithaca-based, it would also explain the lack of side ejectors. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Pin placement is wrong for Ithaca, it mostly resembles 870 but is just not right. And it's not that the ejection port doesn't exist, it's that it's not seen. The problem that makes my say airsoft is that the weapon isn't seen to function in any way aside from the practical effect for the "water round." No blank fire or weapon cycling. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 20:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
::They look like nickel plated Winchester 1300 defenders with pistol grips and standard mag tubes. And I don't think they're airsoft, if you look down the barrel of one of them in the case, you see residue from firing blanks. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

:: Winchester 1300 Defs? Bah, why didn't I think of that? [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
::- Not a 1300 either. 1300s have a single pin, and the safety button would be visible as would the slide release. And the "residue" could be just about anything, and I think its more likely to be from lighting. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 21:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

==Robert Patrick==

Robert Patrick uses the USP with the silver slide in the most recent episode. -- [[User:K|K]] 12:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

==Jessie's Rifle==

Anyone know what Jessie was using when he "shot" Micheal in the finale? --[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

It's listed on here as a Colt Model 933 but I don't think it is. If you look at the rail and the front sights it looks like a HK416 to me. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:02, 4 July 2011 (CDT)

== Not a Remington 700? ==

Is this not a Remington 700? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 04:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:BNassassinRifle.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Evelyn the assassin ([[Lucy Lawless]]) adjusts the scope on her Remington.]]
[[Image:BNassassinRifle2.jpg|thumb|none|400px|A view of the other end of the Remington: the end you would rather be behind.]]
I don't think this is correct, at least based on the picture of the 700PSS provided. Look at the bolt handle, not what on a factory Remington 700. And the stock is too glossy and smooth looking to be a tactical rifle

== H&K P30 or HK45? I think this gun is misidentified. ==

This looks more like a Heckler and Koch P30 than an HK45. They are very similar looking except the external safety on the HK45, the bottom of the magazine is different, and the HK45 is larger.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/4/41/BurnS4_309.jpg/500px-BurnS4_309.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/c/c8/HH45.jpg/400px-HH45.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/1/12/HK-P30.jpg/350px-HK-P30.jpg

(I tried to post the pictures but couldn't get it to work). Notice the difference in the bottom of the magazine. The HK45 is also a full-size, the P30 is a compact. Notice the slight difference in the length of the slide. The gun in his hand looks more like a compact, and the slide looks shorter than the HK45. I'm new, so I'm not going to change anything myself. Just a suggestion.

SnakeDoc

Its definately A P30.. you can tell by the trigger guard

== New sidearm for Weston in Season 4? ==

The attached picture from Burn Notice may show Weston carrying an HK P30 9mm. (Again, I can't figure how to embed the picture).

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/113/1135169/burn-notice-20101117073255292_640w.jpg

It is a publicity still from the latest episode (aired in late November). If I recall the episode correctly, he drew the gun on his own (didn't recover it from someone else) and used it to shoot a fake chemical weapon cannister filled with tear gas and pesticide.
It looks like an H&K to me ... too small to be an HK45, not square enough to be a USP Compact. I'm pretty sure it isn't Weston's usual Sig, though I am unsure if it represents a permanent change in sidearm of choice.

Hope not, SIG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HK, like is way better.

Its definatetly a P30. Personally i think a new gun would be good the P228 is outdated and is used by everybody in most T.V shows so a new gun like the P30 would be good.. OR stay with Sig and get the P229 E2

honestiy , i like the P228 with him . its been with him since the pilot so i say , if it aint broke dont fix it simmons 8492

Its his signature weapon, seriously signature weapons cant be changed.

:Yep, it's official: Michael Weston has switched to the H&K P30 as his new sidearm. I was a bit disappointed, as I hoped he would just get a newer SIG (i.e. the P229R, SP2022, or P250), but P30 it is. I figured it was inevitable at some point he was gonna switch sidearms. Actually, I'm surprised he had the 228 for as long as he did, considering the assortment of new(er) pistols that have been used by other characters on the show (like the Walther PPS, FN Five-Seven USG, and Springfield XD, among others). I would have figured it's a rule in Hollywood that the protagonist always has to have the best gun. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 04:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

XD was only briefly shown in one episode, I believe 5-7 was too. Look at Sam, conealing a beretta the whole series, Fiona likes her ppk and michael had a SIG. Now I have to see a HK.......Sigh. A PPS may be a better choice for a new gun for Fiona. And the 92 is a beast, maybe something SIG sized for Sam would be appropriate, hes also a former seal so it would make sense.

: Signature weapons can change occasionally. Jack Bauer switched from a Sig to an H&K USP Compact between Seasons 2 and 3 of 24 (he used the USPc for the remaining seasons). I don't mind the change. I actually like the P30 quite a bit personally, so its good to see it getting a bit more publicity. -- SnakeDoc

I hate HK, I mean, a rail that only takes their special accessories, instead of a standard rail everybody else uses, since there you know, too good for a streamlight or what not, and they got a mag release on the trigger guard instead of the grip. The sig is compact, accurate, reliable, and has the ergos right.

-k9870

: The P30 has a standard rail.

-looks like the 228 is back in the finale ;)

Agreed the Sig is back for the finale show down... I agree i'd love to see him make the practical and logical step to a Sig P229R DAK... because in a adreneline situation who wants to remember long pull short pull---ST0NEFIELD

::Me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:26, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

-Can we get some pictures of him using a P30 because I can't find any

:Who keeps deleting the line about Michael Westen changing his sidearm to a P30? I added it once, it got deleted, I added it again, and it is deleted again. I am going to add it again (along with some pics), and I ask that whoever keeps deleting it stops. Thanks.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:05, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

He has reverted back to the HK P30 as of the first episode of the fifth season.

Did any other Sig-Sauer fans feel a little sad that Michael Weston left us for HK? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 13:57, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Yes, me! I was not happy at all. The P228 seemed to fit him so perfectly. I'm not a fan of HKs overpriced stuff. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 16:44, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Don't get me wrong, the P30 feels GREAT in the hand, but its too damn expensive. Same with the USP, feels okay, but is way too overpriced. SIG-Sauer is still expensive, but you get what you pay for. BTW, if you didn't know I am a DIE-HARD SIG-Sauer fan (except for the new E2 or whatever, hate that) and I wish they would have given him a P229R or even a SIG-Pro, idc which model of SIG-Pro. Both in DA/SA of course. I could rant on SOOO much longer, but I have to stop myself.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:54, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Isn't the E2 now pretty much what the standard for what a P226 looks like now?--[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 03:25, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yes, and it makes me SOOOO mad that they didn't at least keep the standard grips availiable for people that prefer them. Plus, they changed the slide of the P229 to where it looks just like a P228R.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:03, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

It's only like when they made all of the pistols with a rail. I hate the railed frame it looks so ugly. I'd prefer them to offer at least a "classic" version with original grips and no rail. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 14:14, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

:I like both frames, and I think they should have kept all three as an option. You could choose unrailed or railed, then choose the grips (classic P226, newer style, or E2).--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 11:08, 13 July 2011 (CDT)

::Or... You can just buy an older version. :I - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:20, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

Sounds good. Let's contact SIG Sauer with our idea lol. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 06:36, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

I thought it was a nice change to see him with a new sidearm. Its like when they changed weapons in Stargate from the MP5 to the P90

Finally the SIG has been completely phased out in Season 5 Episode 5 'Square One'. Fiona melts it with thermite(?). --[[User:Devang.home47|Devang.home47]] 21:53, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

That wasn't his P228. That was a P226 that was used to try and set Michael up. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:51, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

I can't be too sure, but it seems from the recent episodes that Michael is back with the Sig. I haven't been able to pause the show on any clear, not blurry shots. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 08:19, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

In the last episode there was an overhead shot that when I saw it I thought to myself that it looked like a SIG. Hopefully he's seen sense and dropped the HK and gone back to the SIG. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 08:30, 17 August 2011 (CDT)
:I'm not sure about the last episodes, but in the preview for the next one he is with the HK. Hopefully he will simply alternate between them.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 10:53, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

I still don't understand where a burnt spy would get a HK P30 from, or why he would get one when his P228 was fine. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:40, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

:: Forgive my ignorance of all things HK pistols, but why would it be difficult for him to get a P30? Or why would it be more difficult than having a Sig? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 10:41, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

Because the P30 is a very new gun and HK guns are ridiculously expensive. The P228 has been around for years. Was there any explanation where he got the P30 from? I'm sure he got the P228 from a bad guy. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:22, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

: The P30 first showed up as Cole's sidearm in S4's Center of the Storm. Cole threw Mike's SIG into an electrified puddle while having him as a hostage so he lost his P228 at that point. By the end of the episode they were working together so it's not unreasonable that Cole gave Mike his P30 for ruining his SIG. The P30 was then used by Mike several episodes later. I'm both an H&K and a SIG fan, but I'm not a fan of the P30. --[[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 19:40 , 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh, I forgot about that episode. I don't mind the HK USP or the HK .45 but I don't like the P30 either. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:18, 22 August 2011 (CDT)

== Pistol in S04E15 "Brotherly Love" ==

Did anybody notice the gun that Michael gave to Sam in the loft, the one that he said that Fiona had modified to fire 3-round bursts? It only showed it for a second, so I didn't get a good lock at it, and I was just wondering if anybody here did and recognized it --[[User:THizzle80|THizzle80]]

HK VP70, I think. He probably meant Fiona altered it to fire burst without the stock attached.--[[User:Mr-Jigsaw|Mr-Jigsaw]] 07:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Yup, that does indeed look like what I saw. Never even heard of that pistol before, and I consider myself somewhat of a gun nut, so it's cool to learn about a new gun. It's kind of neat how they build the selector switch into the stock mount. Thanks for the info! --[[User:THizzle80|THizzle80]]

Do you think there is any reason they chose to modify a VP70 rather than just use a 93R or G18? It just seemed odd to me that they used a relatively obscure pistol for this role. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 07:26, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

:VP70 is hardly obscure, role in Aliens + first polymer handgun evar. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:53, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

::But it was best known for its role as Leon S. Kennedy's sidearm in Resident Evil 2. Thanks in no small part that it was called by its real name, aww, the good old days. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:47, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

:::I suppose you are right, it isn't that obscure to those that frequent this website. It is one of the things that makes me love this show so much; their accuracy, attention to detail and choice of equipment make it a different cut to most junk on TV these days. It is still a bit of a surprise that they chose to modify, unless this is a wink to Fi's associates and maybe Seymore, the arms dealer? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 17:31, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

I just did a bit of research on the internet and found out that the VP70M had a selector built into the detachable stock that allowed semi-auto or three round burst. So my question about why they didn't choose a burst pistol now looks a little dumb. Thanks for the comments though. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 18:53, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

== Mike's Holster ==

Anyone have any clue what holster Mike uses? You don't get a lot of good looks at it, but you get a fairly good one in Season 1's 'Unpaid Debts', when he's walking away from the screen after they kidnap the brother of the pimp. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 09:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

It changes. Ive seen an iwb, a Small of back serpa, mexican carry, etc.

==Jesse's Rifle==

Okay, dont attack me for this but i think in season 4's guilty as charged Jesse is using a HK416. Look at the gas black, Hk front sight and the lower side rails. With all the othe Hk love in series 4 it wouldnt be too abnormal to have a 416 turn up --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 14:10, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

How does one go about submitting alterations? In the Episode "Good Soldier" (S2E9) a pistol is listed here as being a S&W 459. I looked a the episode on DVD and it looks like a Kimber SIS. The forward and rear slide serrations are very distinctive.

==639==

Seth Peterson uses a 639 as opposed to a 4006. The front sight is fixed and the trigger guard is round without serrations, features of a second generation, and it also has a single stack frame.

==Beretta Cougar?==

I just noticed this in 3x13 Partners in Crime. It's the gun Michael hands Nate when he asks to keep an eye on mom though it doesn't get used in the episode. Initially I thought it was a Px4, but after brightening it looks like a Beretta Cougar.

Picture (brightened for clarity):

[[File:Burnnoticecoug.jpg]]

- IGemini - 18:40, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Yep, It's a Beretta Cougar. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 22:16, 23 June 2011 (CDT)

== The Fall of Sam Axe? ==

So, as to the new 'movie', are we making a separate page for it, or are we just adding it all to this one? Personally, I think we should make a new page, since this one is getting kinda long. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 02:53, 18 April 2011 (CDT)

Yes, since it is a separate movie, it will get a separate page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:05, 18 April 2011 (CDT)
:Okay. It's up on Hulu currently, if anyone wants to start getting screenshots. I'll go back and compile a list of weapons in a while. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 16:03, 18 April 2011 (CDT)
== MP5 (S4 Finale) ==
I am not entirely sure, but I believe that the MP5s used by Vaughn's men in the Season 4 finale (Last Stand) are of the A5 variant, based on the 3-position; collapsible stock, and the HK "3 round burst" trigger group. This can be clearly seen when Michael, Fiona, and Jesse are at the elevator shaft, talking with Vaughn; Michael's MP5 is slung, with a somewhat clear shot of the fire selector. I can upload a screenshot if necessary. --[[User:Progamer7100|Progamer7100]] 11:23, 8 May 2011 (CDT)

==Season 5==
Just watched the seasons premiere, no new guns to report all have previously been covered on the page. Wondering if the new series Suits on the same network contains any guns and deserves a page. I'm gonna watch it asap anyways (: [[User:Noe|Noe]] 15:35, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

Episode 6 has a new one to add: close to the beginning Michael takes a rifle from a sniper that is in the H&K G3 family. It seems to lack the wide selector ring of the G3, most likely an HK91. I'll have a screencap up sometime today. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 04:04 UTC, 1 August 2011

:Episode 7 had some nice toys today. Almost certain there's a bonafide G3 in this episode, you get a clear shot of the selector markings when Sam is setting one up. Jesse was also using something new today, some things make me think either a Ruger SR-556 or an HK416. I'll need a better look. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 02:06 UTC, 4 August 2011

== Spoilers: The murder weapon in Season Five ==

I'll try not to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't seen the newest episodes, but I'd like to ask something, since I'm not extremely familiar with SIG pistols, or atleast, I'm not too good at identifying them when I only get a quick look at them. Still, in one of the recent episodes, Mike heads to the CIA headquarters for a debriefing, and finds '''Spoilers!''' his contact, dead on the floor with a SIG pistol beside him. Mike melts this gun down using thermite in the next episode. Now, like I said, I'm not too good at identifying SIG pistols, but to me, it looks like a P226 or possibly a P220. Can anyone verify this and possibly grab a decent screencap? [[User:Acora|Acora]] 11:58, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:It was a P226. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 12:22, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

::Thanks for the clarification. Now, can someone get a screencap of it?

:::Um, if it means a lot to you to have a screencap of the P226 from that episode, then you have no right to demand that anyone else provide it. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:31, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

== Season Breaks 2011 ==

The series is currently in Season 5, so it may be time to break up this page by season. The only thing is that many of the same guns are used in every season. Thoughts? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 04:25, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

I personally dont see the point of breaking it up into seasons. Most entries are marked with season and episode so if your wondering about a specific one most web browsers have a built in search function. On Opera and Firefox to open the search box just use Ctrl+F. Noe

:I find it funny how you two had this exact conversation, word for word, around this time last year. Back on topic, I really don't think it is necessary, and I personally hate shows that are broken up by season, but if you feel the need to, go ahead. Expect LOTS AND LOTS of repeats though.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 10:29, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

DONT BREAK THE PAGE!!! WE WANT ONE PAGE ONLY FOR BURN NOTICEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! -- Сергей Титов

::OK, I personally don't care what the anonymous users say. This page is too long and should have been split up a long time ago (same with ''[[Chuck]]''). And to emphasize something I've said before: Overlap of guns is NOT a good reason to avoid breaking up the page. Sometimes, there are many variations on a similar platform (i.e. while the M4 appears in every season of the show, the latest season has featured M4s with different types of stocks and rail integration systems). Plus, if many different characters use the gun across several seasons, it's nice to document its use by all of them (rather than have a huge paragraph running through everyone who's used this gun or that gun). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:34, 13 December 2011 (CST)

== Kahr K9 ==

In "Friends like These" Sam has a silver Kahr K9 in his ankle holster as a backup. I believe he also shoots it over the counter at Bennett Tash during a shootout in a locksmith store. Fiona pulls a Silver Kahr K9 out of her purse in the USA commercial "What Grenade?" here's the commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0WNJx7Ys2Y Thanks Editors -- Сергей Титов

== Red dot on the Ramo RT37 ==

[[Image:BurnS4 600.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
I'm looking at the photo and I'm getting more and more certain it's a C-More sight. I can't exactly see the "slope" on the rear of the lens frame, but the lines are pretty clear. You can even see the laser housing sticking out of the rearmost part of the top. --[[User:Seriously Mike|Seriously Mike]] 15:09, 3 December 2011 (CST)

Talk:Burn Notice

2011-12-14T05:04:19Z

StarSummers: /* New Guns */

==New Guns==
The Liberian Warlord Kamba uses some SIG variant in Season 5 Episode 15 – Necessary Evil

: You mean this?
[[File:BNCustomSIG.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like a heavily customized P226 with a manual safety and flash compensator. Maybe a 220? I dunno, the markings make me unsure. Definitely an interesting creature. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 19:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It has some, interesting Sig like contours, specifically the rear of the slide and frame, look a lot like the Sig P220/226 but the rest of the pistol doesnt really resemble it at all. There doesnt appear to be a slide release in the usual "Sig" spot, and the take down lever is completely different. As well the hammer seems to be milled as a DAO type hammer and the frame has a full length dust cover. It looks like it has a ramp rear sight and some sort of manual slide safety or decocker. Not that i have the foggiest clue what it might be, but for some reason i dont think its any type of Sig. -MissySummers-

Not sure about this sniper rifle in Episode 16. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:02, 2 December 2011 (CST)
[[File:BurnS5 304.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

I'd say that is a Sako TRG? Likely the 7.62mm TRG-22. Also, Fiona uses the Grendel SRT to cover Mike's meeting with Anson while Jesse acts as the spotter. --[[User:Devang.home47|Devang.home47]] 22:48, 2 December 2011 (CST)

I believe you're right with the SAKO. Thanks. __[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:24, 3 December 2011 (CST)

==USA Commercial==
In the USA Network commercial entitled "What Grenade?" promoting both [[Burn Notice]] and White Collar, Fiona ([[Gabrielle Anwar]]) is shown to have several weapons in her purse.
[[File:KahrM9BN.JPG|thumb|none|500px|The K9 Fiona set on the restaurant table, after digging for her ringing cell phone in her purse.]]
[[File:GrenadeBN.JPG|thumb|none|500px|"What Grenade?" A [[Mk 2 hand grenade]] (Pineapple Fragmentation) rolls out of Fiona's purse.]]

==Production and Behind the Scenes Images==
[[File:Berettasambn.JPG|thumb|300px|none|Sam ([[Bruce Campbell]]) holds his Beretta as he waits for Mike to take a swing in S05E05 "Square One"]]
[[File:Samberettabnshooting.JPG|thumb|300px|none|Sam fires his Beretta at the in-flight golf ball over the bay.]]

[[File:BNSIG552.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Michael stretches with his SIG SG 552 before covering Fi in S5E7 "Besieged:]]
[[File:Bnpic3.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Michael entering the compound with his SIG 552 in "Besieged"]]
[[File:Bnpic4.jpg|thumb|300px|none|Sam holding Mike's rifle in his right hand.]]
[[File:Agent Pierce.JPG|thumb|none|300px|In Season 5's "Dead to Rights", Agent Dani Pearce holds a SIG on Sam. "You think we'd pull a stunt like that for fun?!"]]

==Additional Images==
[[File:Hkcenterofstorm.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Another view of Cole and his P30]]
[[File:Bncap5.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[File:Hkcenterofstormangle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

==Lol Wut?==
Relocated this from the main page. It made even less sense before I cleaned up the spelling and grammar errors: "I know that in the new Burn Notice episode "Question & Answer," a thug uses a Colt Diamondback but I don't know how to add it. Will someone do it for me? It is "Double Down" look it up." Whatever, dood. --[[User:DOHC Holiday|DOHC Holiday]] 04:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

==Formatting==
This page's formatting was really atrocious, so I did quite a bit of editing. I really don't want to see that happen again, y'all.

Anyway, I have the Pilot episode of this show on my laptop now, so I will screencap it in the near future, and maybe buy some more episodes on iTunes for the other guns. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 03:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Yea...I'm doing some work too and your kinda screwing up my practice here. No hard feelings, but i got it and you take it from here. (The Winchester)

:Oh, OK. Well, this page's formatting has actually been pretty bad for a while now. Anyway, for practice, I would recommend hitting the "Edit" button on other people's pages to study how formatting was done. I'm also in the habit of recycling my own code when it comes to inserting gun entries on a page (i.e. if I see a movie with an MP5A3, the first thing I do is go to a movie page I know has MP5A3s in correct format, cut and paste all of the text for the gun entry, paste it in my page, and edit the text as necessary to conform to my new page).

::yea, i've been doing that, but i think i'm starting to get better at it. Thanks for the advice though. -Winchester

::Hey what was the revolver used by the security guy to kill Chandler in the latest episode? It looks like a Smith and Wesson Model 29 but I'm not sure. MW

:Well, i have the 1st season on dvd and i could do it in the future. i have a few movies that im still committed to, so it might be a while. [[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]

A molotov cocktail isn't a firearm, so I've removed it. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 08:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I just finished watching the premier episode of Season 3 on USA and noted usage of an M4A1 and an M203 on the page. The 203 definitely wasn't a Cobray, but since it wasn't actually used, I figure it could most likely have been an airsoft version. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

WOWWWEEEE. I just did a ton of work on this. I made a bunch of errors because it took me like four hours, but I think I fixed them all. I apologize for the relatively low quality of my screen caps, but they are DVR downloads from TV, and not very high quality TV. Does anybody have the HD version? Or the DVD? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 00:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
:One more thing, there is a sniper rifle used by Fiona in one episode, that I can not put my finger on. Here is the image.
[[Image:BNfionaRifle.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Fiona shoots some dudes with some rifle.]]
--[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 00:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Looks to me like a Browning Automatic Rifle, that civilian one that's not actually the B.A.R.-protoAuthor

:I do in fact have HD versions of many episodes on my back-up external drive and have meaning to upload for a while, but right now, I'm juggling a whole bunch of different things (including IMFDB pages). At some point, I plan to do a huge re-vamp on this page (it was supposed to be BEFORE Season 3 started, but obviously, that didn't pan out for me). If you want a preview, take a look at some of the shots I've been meaning to upload but haven't gotten around to yet:

:[[Image:Vlcsnap-153758.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]
:[[Image:Vlcsnap-409605.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]

:Also, a few other things: Please mention the episode beneath the screenshot, and name the characters/actors who use guns if you can. I use IMDB to make sure I have my info correct. For instance, the hijacker in Episode 2.07 (the guy with the nickel Jericho) is named Gerard and is played by [[Max Martini]] (same dude who's on "The Unit"). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

he played MSG. Mack Gerhardt in the Unit. he was also in season 2 or 3 of 24 (if sum1 has any screenshots, i believe he had a MP5.

:To whoever did the Steyr Scout, how'd you identify it as such, and the BAR maybe we should rephrase it to somethign like "not to be confused the the m1918 Browning Automatic Rifle" instead of calling it a civie version since they are two different firearms.-[[User:RedJedRevolver|RedJedRevolver]]

:I'm beginning to think that the Steyr scout, isn't. The Barrel is not fluted and maybe a little thick, the bolt handle is different, and im doubting the reciever, and the stock is not a Steyr's. -[[User:RedJedRevolver|RedJedRevolver]]
::I looked at it again, you're right. I mostly guessed on that anyway. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 06:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Whoever put the gun that Michael used in the pilot episode to get rid of the drug dealer as a Jericho/Baby Eagle needs to get their eyes checked. That's definetly not a Jericho. I want to say it's a smith and wesson but don't know which model. Here's the image I got

[[Image:Gun pilot.JPG|thumb|none|600px|]]

It is either a S&W 4006 or S&W 5906 because it exhibits the double stack bulge. I'm leaning towards the 5906 because of the hooked trigger guard.[[Special:Contributions/96.32.185.136|96.32.185.136]] 22:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm removing the ones that are under the Jericho section that are wrong. --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 00:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to the party but that looks like a S&W 645 to me because of the exposed screws. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 12:31, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

It's great to know I'm not seeing things :) I've always thought that gun was either a 645 or an earlier (I think) version of the 659 with small iron sights. But I just kind of deferred to all the other guys' experience on this one and kept quiet. - [[User:TrueBeliever19|TrueBeliever19]]

== Fiona's assault rifle ==

I was looking for the model of Fiona's souped up assault rifle, that she stole from the gun-smuggler (after Michael poured gunpowder all over his face).

It can also be seen in Season 2 Ep 14 @ 40:00 - it kind of looks like an SG-500, but I don't think it is. Anyone got any ideas?

they assault rifle Fiona got from Seymour (arms dealer) was an M4A1 carbine with what appeared to be an Ampoint (possibly ACOG) anpeq-2 and some type of verticle grip. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 02:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

== Sam's Rifle ==
In the season 3 finale, Sam uses an assault rifle with a scope to get the kidnappers onto a boat and help free Fiona. Since Bruce Campbell is left handed, he covers up most of the rifle when he's shown firing. It looks like an AR derivative, either an M16A4 or SPR. I don't think it's an SR-25. They took the episode down from Hulu so I can't get a screenshot of it.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 07:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Someone is dissing Bruce Campbell firing the MP5 PDW without using the sights. I just saw a show on Discovery channel about the Iran hostage crisis and it interviewed two former SAS operatives. Its standard for them to point shoot small arms with intense practice and instinct in close quarters. Afterall Sam is a former SEAL. --~~

==Mark 23==
thanks for the compliment to whoever took the screencaps I posted on HKpro.com forums for the Mk23 sub heading. Cheers!

==sig 226==

i am pretty sure the black sig in the first picture being held by the michael character is a 228, the barrel looks short and in a later episode he mentions the 228, it seems to be his prefered weapon, and i'm not sure but i think the third one is as well,

==Errors==
2 Errors of note: The Steyr is a Remington 700. The stock isn't even close, the barrel doesn't have the twist and the scout rail isn't present. It's not a ProHunter either.

The Winchester 1300's aren't either. Note the lack of v-shaped reciever. They're Remington 870 Marine Magnum's.

I don't think they're even real. They look more like airsoft. The barrels don't seem to be connected to the magazine tube, there doesn't seem to be a safety or a pump release in the places you'd find them on a 1300 or 870. also we cannot see the ejection port which helps matters a great deal. I'm going to watch the episode again when i get home and look again. I also don't remembering them actually firing but there being an effect in its place.[I would ad my signature but I haven't been able to access my account as of late, Mercer]

==Accuracy International==

During the episode "Double Booked" Michael apparently assembles an "AI AWC" but it has a standard Remington 700 bolt handle (flat and knurled), I think it appears to be a Remington 700 with AICS which does have a folding option, anyone prove me wrong? Update: I changed the name to reflect what this is.

== Desert Eagle ==

Added Desert Eagle to handgun list. Season 3 Episode 4 "Fearless Leader". --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 17:44, 13 January 2010
(UTC)

== Beretta Tomcat==

In Season 3 Episode 8 "Friends Like These". Fiona uses a Beretta Tomcat on Natalie. Can anyone get a screenshot of this.
==SIG not Glock==
[[Image:BNglock19black.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Mike shoots at the hood of a car with another commandeered SIG.]]
This is not a Glock, look at the grip above Michael's hand. It's a Sig, though it looks too big for his 228. Maybe a 226?
This gun is a SIG non-gun. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 06:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Its a P226

==HK USP compact 45==
I deleted the bit about Fiona's walther ppk because it said that it was the gun Michael used to shoot Strickler. That is wrong Mike uses Fiona's HK USP compact and that is what she leaves at his house.

on the topic of HK USPs what kind is Seymour (arms dealer) seen using when he pulls it on Mike. the barrel looks to small to be a .45 but it appeared to be under HK USP .45

==Fiona's M1==
At the end of the episode when Sam is seen disposing of the weapons it is not a stretch to assume he kept some of them for their use, explaining where Fiona got the rifle.
''The M-1A is a Springfield Armory weapon designed for civilian use, because of this the rifle is much more likely to be the M-1A since it is a Civvie version. It is NOT an EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle)the barrel is too long to be the EBR, which was designed for DMR as well as CQB. It is more likely the EMR (Enhanced Marksman Rifle) which has a longer barrel.''
 

:''The "Family Business" M-1A appears to be a SOPMOD conversion (note the slightly different stock and a lack of a front iron sight) instead of the EMR/EBR Fiona uses in "Turn and Burn."

Yes, there is a implied subplot, that they only disposed of some excess weapons, such as norincos, and some assault rifles and assorted small arms that came in huge crates. --Сергей Титов

==Fiona's rifle==
What is the rifle Fiona uses to shoot Carla with?

I think it's the BAR she used earlier in the series.
[[Image:BurnS2 2063.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]
Doesn't BAR stand for : Browning AUTOMATIC Rifle? The rifle in the image clearly has a bolt handle. Rob the Fiend
it's a different BAR. Not the ww2 rifle

I know it's not the WW2 rifle, read this: http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=002B&catalog_=B

::You are right. Definitely NOT the BAR Safari, being that rifle is a semiautomatic and she does have a bolt action visible in the pic. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 17:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

==S3Ep13==
This is probably the best yet! Man Burn Notice is awesome. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

== AWM Season 3 Episode 11 ==

Toward the end Fiona pulls out what I believe is an Arctic Warfare Magnum.

Yes she does. she pulls it our of a suitcase in a hotel room that was going to be to cover Michael during his meeting with Gilroy. It has a sideways folding stock too. I don't remember, I think it might have been suppressed too. --Сергей Титов 17:35, Sep. 30 2011

== Great show ==
I love this show. And Fiona is my ultimate dream girl. A knockout who you can take to the gunstore and range! But I wouldn't be able to use the old excuse of buying her a particular firearm knowing that she would never use it and I would. Not only would she use it she's probably break your arm if you tried to take it! What a woman.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:Heh, right on. "Honey! I got you a S&W in .44! The recoil might be a bit much for you though, I'll just use it inste-*CRACK* AUUUUGHHGGGG!" --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

ha ha that funny . but id rather hang with michael . i like him . maybe pick up a few things . fight moves , learn to speak russian , and some super cool
spy stuff. im happy its on tonight. simmons 8492 definitely agree!! --Сергей Титов

== CZ 75BD ==

In season 3 episode 6 "the hunter" Michael and his new friend John Beck use a CZ 75BD pistol.
[[Image:Bn1.jpg|thumb|none|400px]] [[Image:Bn2.jpg|thumb|none|400px]] [[Image:Bn3.jpg|thumb|none|400px]]

==BNS4==
Damn I love this show. Season 4 started out with a BANG!!!!! [[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

damn right brother , i love this show so much . simmons 8492

==Khan's Gun==

what was kahn using in s4e2? im thinking fn fnp

[[ Image:Screencap.jpg|thumb|none|400px ]]

That would be a Walther p99AS in what could be a 9mm or a 40S&W. [[Spades of Columbia]]

: Nope. [[Smith & Wesson SW99]], with a titanium or hard-chromed slide. --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 18:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

you are absolutely correct on that Sir, tip of the hat to ya, good eye on the front slide surrations. [[Spades of Columbia]]

==What are these==

these guns look really dressed up

[[ Image:Bns4.jpg|thumb|none|400px]]

Heckler and Koch SL8 with suppressors

-Double Agent M

Whats with the bent up areas under the scopes

- Just a somewhat unconventional frame design.

[[Image:HK-SL8.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Heckler & Koch SL8 target match with 10 round magazine - 5.56x45mm.]]

[[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

So...what was the Gun that Josh pulled on the crooked invester in the most recent episode? It was Sam's buddy that Michael dissarmed at one point.[[Spades of Columbia]]

Screenies [[Image:IMFDB1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Resized the screenies..]]

[[Image:IMFDB2.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

I'm thinking a shiny Sig sauer p22xr?

looks like a non gun

Wow, fricking huge screens. It is neither a SIG or a non gun, but a Taurus PT940. Probably the same one used in the other bank episode.

Sorry for the huge screenies. From what i can see on taurus website they dont make the pt940 stainless with rail. Sure it could be aftermarket or the black could have been removed. But still the pt940 with rail has 2 notches in the rail and from what i can tell this gun dosnt. I am no taurus fan neither a taurus knower on the other hand.

It could be the 9mm version of the PT940. I think it is called the model 911 maybe? I know that the Taurus 9mm version comes with rails. [[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

:It's a PT911 or 940 (more likely the 911). And yes, Taurus does make those pistols with rails now. Their web site may not be updated, but I just saw a PT940 with a rail frame for sale at a gun show last weekend. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:03, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

== Original CZ 75... ==

In Season 3 Episode 14, the Polish agent at the lighthouse pulls what I believe is an original CZ 75 (pre B). I don't know how to upload screen caps, but if someone else wants to confirm this, it's at 4:41 in the episode. - [[User:WATYF|WATYF]]

I'm sure it's a pre B, rounded trigger guard is a dead giveaway.

[[Image:Burn Notice S03 E14 CZ 75 2.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

--[[User:Noe|Noe]] 12:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==S04E06==

Does anyone know what concealed carry pistol Buddy is carrying at roughly 8 min? I can't take screenies on this computer, they just turn out all black :<.

==S04E09==
Cohen or what the dudes name was, was holding a H&K P30 on Michael

== Breaking Up By Season? ==

The show has been renewed for 2 more seasons, so it may be time to break up this page by season. The only thing is that many of the same guns are used in every season. Thoughts? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I personally dont see the point of breaking it up into seasons. Most entries are marked with season and episode so if your wondering about a specific one most web browsers have a built in search function. On Opera and Firefox to open the search box just use Ctrl+F. Noe

== ATPIAL/AN PEQ15? ==
After Michael and Fiona get out of Seymours mansion after Seymour attacks them is the "laser targeting assist" she has on her rifle an ATPIAL/AN PEQ15? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 15:21, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

No one got an answer? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 17:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

==Remington 870==

wrong....I don't know what it is. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 14:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

How is that not a Remington 870? --[[User:ShootoutWithDave|ShootoutWithDave]] 15:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

A few things have always bugged me about those guns. First, the barrel doesn't seem to connect to the magazine tube the right way. Second the safety and slide release seem to be missing. Third there is no clear view of the right side of the weapon so we cannot see the ejection port. And lastly, we never see them actually fire, the "water shell" is a practical effect, not a blank round. I would bet money they're airsoft. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 16:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:Shotgun US Remington 870 'Tac Star' 12 gauge slide action shotgun.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Remington 870 with pistol grip and vertical foregrip - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:BNshotgunCase.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Seymour proudly opens his case of customized shotguns.]]
[[Image:Burn 266.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
[[Image:Burn 267.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

Something is off about them. The trigger guard doesn't look right either, the inside of them is too squared. Often times S&W 3000 shotguns are misidentified as 870s. But they aren't 3000s either. As [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] said probably airsoft.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 19:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I could be wrong, but I've a pretty strong feeling that those are actually Ithaca 37s, or at least, fakes based off the Ithaca 37, anyway. The trigger guard looks awful close and if they're Ithacas/Ithaca-based, it would also explain the lack of side ejectors. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Pin placement is wrong for Ithaca, it mostly resembles 870 but is just not right. And it's not that the ejection port doesn't exist, it's that it's not seen. The problem that makes my say airsoft is that the weapon isn't seen to function in any way aside from the practical effect for the "water round." No blank fire or weapon cycling. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 20:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
::They look like nickel plated Winchester 1300 defenders with pistol grips and standard mag tubes. And I don't think they're airsoft, if you look down the barrel of one of them in the case, you see residue from firing blanks. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

:: Winchester 1300 Defs? Bah, why didn't I think of that? [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
::- Not a 1300 either. 1300s have a single pin, and the safety button would be visible as would the slide release. And the "residue" could be just about anything, and I think its more likely to be from lighting. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 21:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

==Robert Patrick==

Robert Patrick uses the USP with the silver slide in the most recent episode. -- [[User:K|K]] 12:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

==Jessie's Rifle==

Anyone know what Jessie was using when he "shot" Micheal in the finale? --[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

It's listed on here as a Colt Model 933 but I don't think it is. If you look at the rail and the front sights it looks like a HK416 to me. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:02, 4 July 2011 (CDT)

== Not a Remington 700? ==

Is this not a Remington 700? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 04:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:BNassassinRifle.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Evelyn the assassin ([[Lucy Lawless]]) adjusts the scope on her Remington.]]
[[Image:BNassassinRifle2.jpg|thumb|none|400px|A view of the other end of the Remington: the end you would rather be behind.]]
I don't think this is correct, at least based on the picture of the 700PSS provided. Look at the bolt handle, not what on a factory Remington 700. And the stock is too glossy and smooth looking to be a tactical rifle

== H&K P30 or HK45? I think this gun is misidentified. ==

This looks more like a Heckler and Koch P30 than an HK45. They are very similar looking except the external safety on the HK45, the bottom of the magazine is different, and the HK45 is larger.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/4/41/BurnS4_309.jpg/500px-BurnS4_309.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/c/c8/HH45.jpg/400px-HH45.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/1/12/HK-P30.jpg/350px-HK-P30.jpg

(I tried to post the pictures but couldn't get it to work). Notice the difference in the bottom of the magazine. The HK45 is also a full-size, the P30 is a compact. Notice the slight difference in the length of the slide. The gun in his hand looks more like a compact, and the slide looks shorter than the HK45. I'm new, so I'm not going to change anything myself. Just a suggestion.

SnakeDoc

Its definately A P30.. you can tell by the trigger guard

== New sidearm for Weston in Season 4? ==

The attached picture from Burn Notice may show Weston carrying an HK P30 9mm. (Again, I can't figure how to embed the picture).

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/113/1135169/burn-notice-20101117073255292_640w.jpg

It is a publicity still from the latest episode (aired in late November). If I recall the episode correctly, he drew the gun on his own (didn't recover it from someone else) and used it to shoot a fake chemical weapon cannister filled with tear gas and pesticide.
It looks like an H&K to me ... too small to be an HK45, not square enough to be a USP Compact. I'm pretty sure it isn't Weston's usual Sig, though I am unsure if it represents a permanent change in sidearm of choice.

Hope not, SIG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HK, like is way better.

Its definatetly a P30. Personally i think a new gun would be good the P228 is outdated and is used by everybody in most T.V shows so a new gun like the P30 would be good.. OR stay with Sig and get the P229 E2

honestiy , i like the P228 with him . its been with him since the pilot so i say , if it aint broke dont fix it simmons 8492

Its his signature weapon, seriously signature weapons cant be changed.

:Yep, it's official: Michael Weston has switched to the H&K P30 as his new sidearm. I was a bit disappointed, as I hoped he would just get a newer SIG (i.e. the P229R, SP2022, or P250), but P30 it is. I figured it was inevitable at some point he was gonna switch sidearms. Actually, I'm surprised he had the 228 for as long as he did, considering the assortment of new(er) pistols that have been used by other characters on the show (like the Walther PPS, FN Five-Seven USG, and Springfield XD, among others). I would have figured it's a rule in Hollywood that the protagonist always has to have the best gun. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 04:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

XD was only briefly shown in one episode, I believe 5-7 was too. Look at Sam, conealing a beretta the whole series, Fiona likes her ppk and michael had a SIG. Now I have to see a HK.......Sigh. A PPS may be a better choice for a new gun for Fiona. And the 92 is a beast, maybe something SIG sized for Sam would be appropriate, hes also a former seal so it would make sense.

: Signature weapons can change occasionally. Jack Bauer switched from a Sig to an H&K USP Compact between Seasons 2 and 3 of 24 (he used the USPc for the remaining seasons). I don't mind the change. I actually like the P30 quite a bit personally, so its good to see it getting a bit more publicity. -- SnakeDoc

I hate HK, I mean, a rail that only takes their special accessories, instead of a standard rail everybody else uses, since there you know, too good for a streamlight or what not, and they got a mag release on the trigger guard instead of the grip. The sig is compact, accurate, reliable, and has the ergos right.

-k9870

: The P30 has a standard rail.

-looks like the 228 is back in the finale ;)

Agreed the Sig is back for the finale show down... I agree i'd love to see him make the practical and logical step to a Sig P229R DAK... because in a adreneline situation who wants to remember long pull short pull---ST0NEFIELD

::Me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:26, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

-Can we get some pictures of him using a P30 because I can't find any

:Who keeps deleting the line about Michael Westen changing his sidearm to a P30? I added it once, it got deleted, I added it again, and it is deleted again. I am going to add it again (along with some pics), and I ask that whoever keeps deleting it stops. Thanks.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:05, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

He has reverted back to the HK P30 as of the first episode of the fifth season.

Did any other Sig-Sauer fans feel a little sad that Michael Weston left us for HK? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 13:57, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Yes, me! I was not happy at all. The P228 seemed to fit him so perfectly. I'm not a fan of HKs overpriced stuff. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 16:44, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Don't get me wrong, the P30 feels GREAT in the hand, but its too damn expensive. Same with the USP, feels okay, but is way too overpriced. SIG-Sauer is still expensive, but you get what you pay for. BTW, if you didn't know I am a DIE-HARD SIG-Sauer fan (except for the new E2 or whatever, hate that) and I wish they would have given him a P229R or even a SIG-Pro, idc which model of SIG-Pro. Both in DA/SA of course. I could rant on SOOO much longer, but I have to stop myself.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:54, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Isn't the E2 now pretty much what the standard for what a P226 looks like now?--[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 03:25, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yes, and it makes me SOOOO mad that they didn't at least keep the standard grips availiable for people that prefer them. Plus, they changed the slide of the P229 to where it looks just like a P228R.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:03, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

It's only like when they made all of the pistols with a rail. I hate the railed frame it looks so ugly. I'd prefer them to offer at least a "classic" version with original grips and no rail. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 14:14, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

:I like both frames, and I think they should have kept all three as an option. You could choose unrailed or railed, then choose the grips (classic P226, newer style, or E2).--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 11:08, 13 July 2011 (CDT)

::Or... You can just buy an older version. :I - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:20, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

Sounds good. Let's contact SIG Sauer with our idea lol. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 06:36, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

I thought it was a nice change to see him with a new sidearm. Its like when they changed weapons in Stargate from the MP5 to the P90

Finally the SIG has been completely phased out in Season 5 Episode 5 'Square One'. Fiona melts it with thermite(?). --[[User:Devang.home47|Devang.home47]] 21:53, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

That wasn't his P228. That was a P226 that was used to try and set Michael up. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:51, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

I can't be too sure, but it seems from the recent episodes that Michael is back with the Sig. I haven't been able to pause the show on any clear, not blurry shots. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 08:19, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

In the last episode there was an overhead shot that when I saw it I thought to myself that it looked like a SIG. Hopefully he's seen sense and dropped the HK and gone back to the SIG. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 08:30, 17 August 2011 (CDT)
:I'm not sure about the last episodes, but in the preview for the next one he is with the HK. Hopefully he will simply alternate between them.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 10:53, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

I still don't understand where a burnt spy would get a HK P30 from, or why he would get one when his P228 was fine. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:40, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

:: Forgive my ignorance of all things HK pistols, but why would it be difficult for him to get a P30? Or why would it be more difficult than having a Sig? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 10:41, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

Because the P30 is a very new gun and HK guns are ridiculously expensive. The P228 has been around for years. Was there any explanation where he got the P30 from? I'm sure he got the P228 from a bad guy. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:22, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

: The P30 first showed up as Cole's sidearm in S4's Center of the Storm. Cole threw Mike's SIG into an electrified puddle while having him as a hostage so he lost his P228 at that point. By the end of the episode they were working together so it's not unreasonable that Cole gave Mike his P30 for ruining his SIG. The P30 was then used by Mike several episodes later. I'm both an H&K and a SIG fan, but I'm not a fan of the P30. --[[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 19:40 , 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh, I forgot about that episode. I don't mind the HK USP or the HK .45 but I don't like the P30 either. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:18, 22 August 2011 (CDT)

== Pistol in S04E15 "Brotherly Love" ==

Did anybody notice the gun that Michael gave to Sam in the loft, the one that he said that Fiona had modified to fire 3-round bursts? It only showed it for a second, so I didn't get a good lock at it, and I was just wondering if anybody here did and recognized it --[[User:THizzle80|THizzle80]]

HK VP70, I think. He probably meant Fiona altered it to fire burst without the stock attached.--[[User:Mr-Jigsaw|Mr-Jigsaw]] 07:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Yup, that does indeed look like what I saw. Never even heard of that pistol before, and I consider myself somewhat of a gun nut, so it's cool to learn about a new gun. It's kind of neat how they build the selector switch into the stock mount. Thanks for the info! --[[User:THizzle80|THizzle80]]

Do you think there is any reason they chose to modify a VP70 rather than just use a 93R or G18? It just seemed odd to me that they used a relatively obscure pistol for this role. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 07:26, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

:VP70 is hardly obscure, role in Aliens + first polymer handgun evar. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:53, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

::But it was best known for its role as Leon S. Kennedy's sidearm in Resident Evil 2. Thanks in no small part that it was called by its real name, aww, the good old days. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:47, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

:::I suppose you are right, it isn't that obscure to those that frequent this website. It is one of the things that makes me love this show so much; their accuracy, attention to detail and choice of equipment make it a different cut to most junk on TV these days. It is still a bit of a surprise that they chose to modify, unless this is a wink to Fi's associates and maybe Seymore, the arms dealer? --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 17:31, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

I just did a bit of research on the internet and found out that the VP70M had a selector built into the detachable stock that allowed semi-auto or three round burst. So my question about why they didn't choose a burst pistol now looks a little dumb. Thanks for the comments though. --[[User:Rebusdi|Rebusdi]] 18:53, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

== Mike's Holster ==

Anyone have any clue what holster Mike uses? You don't get a lot of good looks at it, but you get a fairly good one in Season 1's 'Unpaid Debts', when he's walking away from the screen after they kidnap the brother of the pimp. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 09:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

It changes. Ive seen an iwb, a Small of back serpa, mexican carry, etc.

==Jesse's Rifle==

Okay, dont attack me for this but i think in season 4's guilty as charged Jesse is using a HK416. Look at the gas black, Hk front sight and the lower side rails. With all the othe Hk love in series 4 it wouldnt be too abnormal to have a 416 turn up --[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 14:10, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

How does one go about submitting alterations? In the Episode "Good Soldier" (S2E9) a pistol is listed here as being a S&W 459. I looked a the episode on DVD and it looks like a Kimber SIS. The forward and rear slide serrations are very distinctive.

==639==

Seth Peterson uses a 639 as opposed to a 4006. The front sight is fixed and the trigger guard is round without serrations, features of a second generation, and it also has a single stack frame.

==Beretta Cougar?==

I just noticed this in 3x13 Partners in Crime. It's the gun Michael hands Nate when he asks to keep an eye on mom though it doesn't get used in the episode. Initially I thought it was a Px4, but after brightening it looks like a Beretta Cougar.

Picture (brightened for clarity):

[[File:Burnnoticecoug.jpg]]

- IGemini - 18:40, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Yep, It's a Beretta Cougar. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 22:16, 23 June 2011 (CDT)

== The Fall of Sam Axe? ==

So, as to the new 'movie', are we making a separate page for it, or are we just adding it all to this one? Personally, I think we should make a new page, since this one is getting kinda long. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 02:53, 18 April 2011 (CDT)

Yes, since it is a separate movie, it will get a separate page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:05, 18 April 2011 (CDT)
:Okay. It's up on Hulu currently, if anyone wants to start getting screenshots. I'll go back and compile a list of weapons in a while. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 16:03, 18 April 2011 (CDT)
== MP5 (S4 Finale) ==
I am not entirely sure, but I believe that the MP5s used by Vaughn's men in the Season 4 finale (Last Stand) are of the A5 variant, based on the 3-position; collapsible stock, and the HK "3 round burst" trigger group. This can be clearly seen when Michael, Fiona, and Jesse are at the elevator shaft, talking with Vaughn; Michael's MP5 is slung, with a somewhat clear shot of the fire selector. I can upload a screenshot if necessary. --[[User:Progamer7100|Progamer7100]] 11:23, 8 May 2011 (CDT)

==Season 5==
Just watched the seasons premiere, no new guns to report all have previously been covered on the page. Wondering if the new series Suits on the same network contains any guns and deserves a page. I'm gonna watch it asap anyways (: [[User:Noe|Noe]] 15:35, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

Episode 6 has a new one to add: close to the beginning Michael takes a rifle from a sniper that is in the H&K G3 family. It seems to lack the wide selector ring of the G3, most likely an HK91. I'll have a screencap up sometime today. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 04:04 UTC, 1 August 2011

:Episode 7 had some nice toys today. Almost certain there's a bonafide G3 in this episode, you get a clear shot of the selector markings when Sam is setting one up. Jesse was also using something new today, some things make me think either a Ruger SR-556 or an HK416. I'll need a better look. - [[User:IGemini|IGemini]] 02:06 UTC, 4 August 2011

== Spoilers: The murder weapon in Season Five ==

I'll try not to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't seen the newest episodes, but I'd like to ask something, since I'm not extremely familiar with SIG pistols, or atleast, I'm not too good at identifying them when I only get a quick look at them. Still, in one of the recent episodes, Mike heads to the CIA headquarters for a debriefing, and finds '''Spoilers!''' his contact, dead on the floor with a SIG pistol beside him. Mike melts this gun down using thermite in the next episode. Now, like I said, I'm not too good at identifying SIG pistols, but to me, it looks like a P226 or possibly a P220. Can anyone verify this and possibly grab a decent screencap? [[User:Acora|Acora]] 11:58, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:It was a P226. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 12:22, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

::Thanks for the clarification. Now, can someone get a screencap of it?

:::Um, if it means a lot to you to have a screencap of the P226 from that episode, then you have no right to demand that anyone else provide it. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 17:31, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

== Season Breaks 2011 ==

The series is currently in Season 5, so it may be time to break up this page by season. The only thing is that many of the same guns are used in every season. Thoughts? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 04:25, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

I personally dont see the point of breaking it up into seasons. Most entries are marked with season and episode so if your wondering about a specific one most web browsers have a built in search function. On Opera and Firefox to open the search box just use Ctrl+F. Noe

:I find it funny how you two had this exact conversation, word for word, around this time last year. Back on topic, I really don't think it is necessary, and I personally hate shows that are broken up by season, but if you feel the need to, go ahead. Expect LOTS AND LOTS of repeats though.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 10:29, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

DONT BREAK THE PAGE!!! WE WANT ONE PAGE ONLY FOR BURN NOTICEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! -- Сергей Титов

::OK, I personally don't care what the anonymous users say. This page is too long and should have been split up a long time ago (same with ''[[Chuck]]''). And to emphasize something I've said before: Overlap of guns is NOT a good reason to avoid breaking up the page. Sometimes, there are many variations on a similar platform (i.e. while the M4 appears in every season of the show, the latest season has featured M4s with different types of stocks and rail integration systems). Plus, if many different characters use the gun across several seasons, it's nice to document its use by all of them (rather than have a huge paragraph running through everyone who's used this gun or that gun). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:34, 13 December 2011 (CST)

== Kahr K9 ==

In "Friends like These" Sam has a silver Kahr K9 in his ankle holster as a backup. I believe he also shoots it over the counter at Bennett Tash during a shootout in a locksmith store. Fiona pulls a Silver Kahr K9 out of her purse in the USA commercial "What Grenade?" here's the commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0WNJx7Ys2Y Thanks Editors -- Сергей Титов

== Red dot on the Ramo RT37 ==

[[Image:BurnS4 600.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
I'm looking at the photo and I'm getting more and more certain it's a C-More sight. I can't exactly see the "slope" on the rear of the lens frame, but the lines are pretty clear. You can even see the laser housing sticking out of the rearmost part of the top. --[[User:Seriously Mike|Seriously Mike]] 15:09, 3 December 2011 (CST)

Talk:CSI: Crime Scene Investigation

2011-12-09T08:53:16Z

StarSummers: /* P90 in the latest episode. */ new section

==New Weapons==

Anyone able to Identify the Weapons seen in a new Episode of CSI?

From Season 10, Episode 10. Thanks to CBS for the Clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u8U27ZGZro

==Here are some clips==
The anonymous user wanted us to ID these guns ;) Boy this guy knows how to pick them. It's from the shootout inside the Nevada gun store..... [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 03:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 01.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 02.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|[[Single Action Army]], [[Jericho 941]] stainless, 2x [[Luger P08]] (with & without custom grips)]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 03.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|[[Glock]] (model unknown)]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 04.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 05.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 06.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 07.jpg|thumb|none|600px|6x [[Heckler & Koch MP5#Heckler & Koch MP5A2|Heckler & Koch MP5A2]]]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 08.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Unknown [[M1911 pistol series|M1911]] variant with stainless frame and Kimber-style rear sights]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 09.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|[[Luger P08]], [[Jericho 941]] stainless, [[Tokarev TT-33 Pistol|Tokarev TT-33]], unknown revolver]]
[[Image:CSI S10Ep10 10.jpg|thumb|none|600px|[[Jericho 941]] stainless, [[Luger P08]], (far left) [[Colt 1851 Navy]], (middle of frame) Colt Model 1849 Pocket Revolver]]

Just ID'ed some of the weapons, but couldn't identify all of them due to the quality of the images and plain not knowing what some of the guns were. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 03:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

==New Weapons - Reply==

Thanks for your Images :D

I think the three shooters used a Glock 19, SIG Sauer P229 & Colt Commander.

Another Note, Alot of Guns were named by Characters anyway...

Greg Sanders: Luger's, Tokarev's, Old Colts.
Capt. Brass: That's where we found him, Curled around his Glock.

There was one show that a mercenery used a Sprinfield Socom 16 to snipe a person at a bank robbery and then he had it again in the desert when he was killed at the end. Sorry i cant remember anything else about it. [[Spades of Columbia]]

== Just a Heads Up ==

The gun that McKeen used to shoot Warrick was a 950 Jetfire, not a Bobcat. You can see this when Catherine's examining the gun. [[User:TheHeartbreakKid15|TheHeartbreakKid15]] 17:45, 9 October 2011 (CDT)

== P90 in the latest episode. ==

So, i figured id throw this up here. As the episode is new, there arent any screen shots, but i figured it was worth talking about.

In this new episode, the FN P90 is featured although the information presented is more or less all incorrect.

The CSI team finds a house full of bullets with lots of blood but no body, and a ton of 5.7x28 casings. Its claimed by the CSI team that the 5.7 is not legal in the US, and that the P90 is a completely uncontrollable weapon, and that explains how later a robber shoots himself in the foot using a stolen P90. They also claim that the gun was used to "zipper" a man in half.

While the P90 has an incredible rate of fire, its considered an extremely controllable gun, even in full auto, which is WHY the Secret Service currently deploy it as one of their current sub guns. As well, the 5.7 is legal in the US for civilian ownership.

Its also claimed that the P90's were stolen from the Army in which they're used in a "breaching" role, but as far as im aware, the US Army doesnt use the P90 at all.

Just figured id vent a little here, it feels as if TV shows are purposely trying to get further and further away from the truth.

Talk:Sucker Punch

2011-12-05T09:26:45Z

StarSummers: /* Reflex Sight on the UMP/M4 */

==Unknown Revolver==
I think it is a Colt Model 1878. Sometimes called the Frontier Double Action.

Actually it was a Rastundgasser.
R.Steacy

==Just saw it==
SPOILER ahead:

Yep, I was afraid it would be like Brazil ...... :( This film will experience a very sharp DROP OFF in revenue after it's premiere. Audiences don't like downer movies .... :( [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 04:58, 25 March 2011 (CDT)

I doubt ill see it until netflix.

Did anyone else notice the gaping plot hole? They only actually needed to see the map to find the exits to the instiution as simply pulling the fire alarm opens all the doors (the doors dont open when they start the fire only the alarm sounds). if theyd looked at the map then pulled the fire alarm they could have all made a run for it!!!--[[User:Captain Snikt|Captain Snikt]] 23:17, 3 April 2011 (CDT)

==Foot Holder/Crotch Watcher==
Seriously, what union is this guy in? I want his job!--[[User:James3|James3]] 21:51, 17 March 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:Suckerpuncher.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

==Trivia Images==
Though we usually frown on such non firearms related images on the main movie page, I added some pretty cool looking imagery from the HD trailer that is guaranteed to confuse people EVEN MORE! LOL. Obviously a 'trivia' special like this will probably be removed once the film is available on DVD for screencapping and we all concentrated JUST on the guns, but the visuals (and how weird and spectacular they are) is what is causing the primary buzz for the film. Until the film is released, I hope we can indulge me a little by showcasing some of the epic visuals (until the page is properly screencapped after DVD release). The visuals are just so eclectic that it leaves the viewer really scratching their head! LOL :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 03:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

==Sucker Punch==
Wait, so this movie is about women killing Huns with modern weapons? [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 19:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No...by my understanding all this is happening in one of the girls head...shes a abused teen and uses this fake world to cope with problems and to deal with a escape from a girls special home or something like that.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

==This had better not END like BRazil :(==
The girl has a five day window to escape from the mental institution before she is lobotomized. This film had better not end with her getting lobotomized! Downer endings like that suck! The point is that she and the other girl inmates are trying to figure out how to escape, all within the backdrop of the girl's own dreams about a hero life. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 20:22, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but I like Brazil's ending, it was a nice change of pace from usual (happier) movie endings [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 21:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
::Brazil's ending worked for Brazil. This film could potentially be much more cruel, since the victim of the unjustly administered lobotomy is an abused girl. Though Brazil was a dark look at a totalitarian society, this one could just be an exercise in cruelty. But then I really have a problem with Lobotomies in general. to me it's WORSE than death. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 00:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
:::I always thought the worst thing you could do to a person you absolutely hated was an icepick lobotomy. That would be much crueler than death, not matter how slow. That being said, who still does lobotomies? Is the film set in the fifties? --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 01:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
::::The 'real world' stories is set in the 1950s, but the fantasy worlds in her head prior to her 'fate' is a mish mash of different dreamworlds. Even though the weapons are anachronistic for her time, since they are all fantasy weapons in her head, it really doesn't bother me being that she is 'dreaming' the weapons and events. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 04:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

And lobotomies aren't exactly rare today either, they still happen. But, just like most medical procedures, it's not like television. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 06:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
:WTF are you talking about? On WHAT do you base this comment? Nobody has done lobotomies since the 1960s. Modern Anti psychotic drugs have taken the place of this barbaric surgical procedure. One, the vast majority of Lobotomies done in the world were in either America, Canada, the Scandinavian Countries or the UK. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

:Here's a start http://www.psychologistworld.com/biological/lobotomy.php Not to mention brain tumors. I didn't say it was used in psychological medicine anymore, but is still a medical procedure performed to remove malicious tissue from the brain. I wouldnt just talk out of my ass MPM. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 06:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
::But if you wanna call horseshit on it, that's fine. No harm , no foul. =P [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 06:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
:::No whoreshit called ;) , you were talking about lobotomies in the context of the surgical removal of brain tissue. I was talking about a FRONTAL LOBOTOMY which was a scrambling of the frontal lobes as a 'cure' for various mental illnesses. So there WAS No harm no foul, we were talking about TWO different things. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Apparently they are still done in France of all places occasionally, at least since 2001 http://www.ccne-ethique.fr/docs/fr/avis071.pdf. I don't know if you read french though. Admittedly it has been a few years since I've been in psychology classes. =P [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 06:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
:Well that's because they're French. What else don't they do over there? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
:Scary thing is that's just what i could find documentation for. I saw some claims that they're still performed in the US; but since no credible sources jumped out at me on my casual search and any links I post via my school's library database will probably end up as dead for you guys it doesn't seem to be worth the effort to pursue. =P [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 07:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
It's because of modern medicine, such a procedure is now considered obsolete and unnecessary [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 15:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

http://media2.slashfilm.com/slashfilm/images/ZZ275A92D4.jpg
In the pic you can see Amber (Jaime Chung) has a Glock 17. Good pic of the Bunny robot and its guns.

It looks like that handgun has a hammer which would make it not a glock.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 15:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Might it be the blue finish 1911 shown on the page? --[[User:Redram355|redram355]] 20:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Can someone tell me PLEASE what are the names of all the guns/weapons used in that pic for each girl!?!? Much would be appreciated. Thank you.

:Try taking a look at the main page. All the guns in the pic except the pistol that fishnet stalking girl is holding (which looks like a Glock model but appears to have a hammer unlike any Glock model) are identified there. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 14:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I would also like to know if anybody can identify the pistol holstered on Blondie. I don't think she ever draws it. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I think everything else has been identified except for that one. LOL

==This movie is gonad suck==

I mean from actresses (if you can name em that) their hiring to the idea hell I'm all for girl power but when the hell did girl power mean actual ''girls'' I mean think about aliens and all the other movies women are in powerful roles they usually aren't little girl who act in Disney movies, sure there are examples Summer Glau of course but since she was in firefly everyone already associated her with badass
::I love how anonymous posters slam a film they've never seen .... and their spelling usually SUCKS! LOL! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

As I said before. This movie's all about hot chicks in skimpy clothing, wielding guns, swords and fighting monsters, dragons and demon samurai...What's not to like? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Well I kinda like Surrealistic films and this counts! :) And I gotta admit, the girls look uberhot! I think chicks with guns (When done right and these actresses look like they've had some training) is HOT! :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:52, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

At least they don't look like they're duel wielding or shooting from the hip like all hotties do [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:54, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Frankly the sight of them walking across that bridge or whatever in a spread tactical formation bodes well for me. At least they had some sort of training for this that, and this is based on the images, they seem to be holding their weapons in a professional manner not, as Excalibur said, in some amateur fashion.--[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 09:08, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

This article [http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2010/07/26/sucker-punch-female-stars-trained-with-navy-seals-to-prepare/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mtvmoviesblog+%28MTV+Movies+Blog%29|article] says they were trained six hours a day for three months by Navy SEALS. --[[User:Redram355|redram355]] 20:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

When I heard that Vanessa Hudgens was in this, I repeatedly slammed my head on my desk. But when I saw her all grungey looking with a shag haircut and MP5K, I immediately thought "This is going to be epic!". I had the same reaction with Kristen Stewart as Joan Jett in ''The Runaways''. First I though "FAIL", then after seeing the previews, I thought "WIN!". -[[User:Swordfish941|Swordfish941]] 23:51, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Saw this movie the night it came out, wasnt packed, but it had a good crowd, it was an awesome movie, and the girls were all definitely trained in tactics and usage of firearms, it was awesome! --[[User:Puckstopper|Puckstopper]] 15:18, 28 March 2011 (CDT)

==anachronistic==
the look of there imaginary world look like they took fiction, past, present, and future and mash them to gather. this kind of visual style making the idea of anachronistic pointless. we have dragons chasing a B-25 and Robots gunning down WW1 biplanes. so if thinks are out of place, they are there for the visual style. an example if a character is a detective he would be dresses like a 1930s detective so say up fount that he is a detective
::No, being Anachronistic is still relevant to the context of the film. Since the girl is 'dreaming' her worlds, having ANY of those items is understandable, except for the stuff which has not been invented yet. A girl in the 1950s dreaming of a B-25 Bomber and a fire breathing dragon is not anachronistic. Now if they had her make a call on an IPHONE, that would be stupid. The weapons anachronisms only 'work' because they could be things that she dreams someday could be real, but even that's a bit of a cop out. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:27, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

The School girl outfit the lead chick wears might be anachronistic if this takes place in the 50s because I don't believe such a style would exist at the time because the whole "bad girl", slutty girl motif hasn't been invented yet. So pretty much most of the weapons shouldn't even be in the girl's mind because seriously. Hate to seem sexist here, but how many girls does your granddad knows that knows guns enough to imagine guns that would not exist for 40 years? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I mean, seriously, robots that look like those? From the mind of a girl from the 50s. Robots weren't that streamline looking [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
::She was very forward thinking ;) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 04:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you really want them to design a whole new set of firing prop guns (which would probably be lackluster or simply ugly, then you would complain about ''that'') when they can use real ones and just get on with it? --[[User:Mr-Jigsaw|Mr-Jigsaw]] 05:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Real ones that don't fit in the time of the movie, even though it's a lot of made up dream sequences, it is still the 1950s and NONE of the weapons, especially the plastic ones like the UMP, and MP7 would exist. Couple that with that this IS a girl and yeah, if a girl dreams herself looking all slutty like that, odds are, she's not a gun nut as well and would have just dreamed up guns that fit her timeframe on what she saw in movies and posters of the time. I don't know how a girl in the 50s America would have heard of Samurai. Dragons, sure, everyone knows dragons and we've got NAZI's apparently or Germans. So it is understandable that her weird dreams of awesomeness would have things that exist in her time period or at least made up guns that don't exist at all. This is me speaking in a movie story sense. I'll reuse and modify something I said in Call of Duty Black OPS. Just like SOG, the dream world can bring in whatever you want since you'd have unlimited imagination, but that imagination can go only as far as the reality it is based on. So like how SOG in Black Ops cant get guns that hasnt even existed on paper yet, this girl's dreams can't dream up M4s and MP5s because they havent even existed in paper yet. Saying this is all a dream is not an excuse, it should have been something for the prop guns to build fictional guns from nothing because this is a dream [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
::She's probably inventive or something. [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 05:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
:::Now you seem to be getting Asperger's syndrome, Excalibur! LOL! ;) I suppose it's BS to have AK47s in the hands of Capricans in Battlestar Galactica or M1 Garands in the hands of Tegalans in Stargate SG-1. I mean how is it possible that they had identical weapons development? Statistically it's nearly impossible to come up with identical (not just almost identical, but Completely identical) lines of technology designs. I say "so what?" There are many other things to worry about and given that we STILL don't know the entire story, I wouldn't waste any more time stressing over it. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 17:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

:: Of course, this is assuming the surrealistic dream world is ''only'' in her head. It is entirely possible that the movie has a supernatural twist that hasn't been disclosed yet.

::: According to the pictures there are no Nazis, only "normal" Imperial German soldiers. Or will there be Nazis in the final film? Anyways - though heavily CGIed - the film looks interesting. Btw the short unidentified carbine could be one of the shortened G88s, which were used by pioneers or the artillery troops. But I am not sure wether there were still bayonet lugs or not. --Paul_Baeumer[[Special:Contributions/84.181.246.81|84.181.246.81]] 22:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

:: There's the above point about the twist ending, but I can't believe I have to say this. Consider the film's pedigree--this is Zack Snyder we're talking about. This film is just going to be brainless hyper-masculine wish fulfillment, so I think he's just throwing all the cool shit on screen he can, anachronisms be damned.
::: True, that would fit with what he did in 300. I just think it's such an obvious twist it'd be a shame if they left it out. I know my first thought upon reading the description was "wouldn't it be cool if she turned out to be psychic, and that's why everyone thinks she's crazy?" I'm probably wrong, but it'd be a cool plot point in my books.
:: Did you even see Watchmen? Yes, he didn't write it, but it couldn't be further from "brainless hyper-masculine wish fulfillment."--[[User:Mr-Jigsaw|Mr-Jigsaw]] 05:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

== What the hell is the plot of this movie? ==

Seriously, usually I can understand something about the plot from the images posted on the movie page, but this one makes absolutely no sense. I mean, I see zombies, nazis, robots, giant samurais with machine gun, and hookers with katanas. Can someone please explain what the plot of this movie is, so I can stop bashing my head against a proverbial wall trying to understand it. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 21:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
:::It's so obvious Silly! It's the story of a wheat farmer in Depression Era Kansas and dealing with the death of his gay lover!! MPM

:according to wikipida "Set in the 1950s, it tells the story of Baby Doll (Browning), who is trying to hide from the pain caused by her evil stepfather and lobotomy. She ends up in mental institution in Brattleboro, Vermont and while there she starts to imagine an alternate reality. She plans to escape from that imaginary world but to do that she needs to steal five objects before she is captured by an unknown adversary. She has 5 days to escape before being lobotomized. In order to cope with the situation, she enters the hyper-real world of her imagination, and the lines between reality and dream begin to blur. She is joined with friends who are inmates from the institution. Lessons learned in the said fantasy world could help the girls escape their real-world fate."

So in the real world she's going to get her brains scrabbled and in the other world she's going to get her cherry popped?--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 01:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

You know it's only a movie right? And a film that is coming from director Zack Snyder, it's best if you check in reality at the door when you see this film. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 01:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

== Modified Mini-Gun ==
Considering the relative size of the demon samurai could this be an [[M61 Vulcan]] instead? The large canister like housing behind the barrel cluster could be the ammo drum. Just a thought. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 00:32, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
: Could be. It's still a fantasy weapon, but the basis makes sense that it is a much larger weapon since the Samurai is pretty much King Kong sized. Technically I just added that for the sake of 'completeness'. Since it is 'some' sort of firearm. Changing it to a Vulcan seems okay to me. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 03:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I think its an M134 Minigun, the ammo is actually coming from a backpack and the drum that's on the gun is probably the motor and battery --[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 12:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Just saw it, it was an oversized M134, and the same guy fired an equaly oversized SMAW right before. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:20, 30 March 2011 (CDT)

==M249 Para==

This movie was filmed in British Columbia, Canada. If I had to guess, the "M249" carried by Vanessa Hudgens is probably going to be one of those [[Daewoo K3]]s with RIS (because as we've seen in ''[[Stargate SG-1]]'', ''[[Walking Tall]]'', ''[[Postal]]'', etc., the armorers in British Columbia don't seem to have any real M249s and always use the K3 as a stand-in). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 21:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:Wouldn't you know...I was right:

:[[Image:M249%2B800.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

:Wow, I know I've been on this site way too long when I predict what a weapon is going to be based on the country in which it was filmed. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 16:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
::Just saw an article about the movie on Entertainment Tonight (yes I watch it) and they show Hudgens on a green screen firing the weapon and you can clearly see it is a K3.--[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 18:14, 16 March 2011 (CDT)

== GLOCK ==

It's GLOCK 19 or not?
[[Image:Glock_19.jpg‎‎]]

Looks like a white Block, fix the picture please.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 19:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't know why, but any uploaded files in InternetExplorer looks like that. In Opera and Chrome pictures looks fine.

That looks like a lefty...it would be a glock 19 if anything,to small to be a 17 and it has a rail so it can't be a 26.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 22:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

:It's not a lefty Glock, the image is just reversed horizontally. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:05, 21 April 2011 (CDT)

== Behind The Scenes==
This:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It4NITv1tdY&NR

And This (parts 2 and 3 too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deHYrQlXkgQ

This is pretty sweet, seems like always used their own guns, even for just for training. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:54, 11 April 2011 (CDT)

== Robot Guns ==

In the making of the robot automiton soldiers (from the train scene) are armed with the modified MAC 10's seen in the Blade movies painted green and pre CG. I think it is fair to assume these are the real life models the guns are built on - Captain Snikt

==Blondie==
Her never used pistol is a PPK. Also note that her MP5K has an SEF trigger group, but also has a PDW flash hider, and that combo is not a real variant. It's either an "MP5K" with a PDW flash hider, or an "MP5K-N" with an SEF trigger group, same thing.

http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Sucker-Punch-character-poster4-Blondie.jpg
[[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:17, 18 April 2011 (CDT)

There is no paddle release on that pic soo im assuming its a SP89 with a pdw front fitted - Captain Snikt

::I'd hit that --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 12:21, 18 April 2011 (CDT)

Good catch with the SP89. Wow, an SP89 with a PDW front and converted to full auto; that's pretty well done, it almost IS an MP5K. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:37, 18 April 2011 (CDT)

In the behind the scene videos I've been watching I see a paddle.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 14:22, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

Well, there goes that theory... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:38, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

== Reflex Sight on the UMP/M4 ==

[[File:SP_14.jpg]]

I know this might seem like a dumb question, but I keep on seeing the same reflex sight over and over on multiple sources, but can never seem to pin down the actual manufacturer and model for it. On one source it does not mention the model, but mentions the manufacturer as Mueller. Another source indicates the manufacturer as Aimpoint, and the one here indicate it's a Sureshot sight. Would someone help me clarify?
--[[User:Cld|Cld]] 07:46, 29 April 2011 (CDT)

:I'm pretty sure it's made by Sureshot, but the same style could be made by different companies, like how there are so many 1911 makers, though that's just a guess. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:14, 30 April 2011 (CDT)

-- Blog with pics of weapons used in Sucker Punch --
Found this while Googling for a good pic of Sweet Pea to use as an avatar. [http://hollywoodmoviecostumesandprops.blogspot.com/2011/03/original-movie-props-from-sucker-punch.html] Has some pretty good pics of Babydoll's 1911 and Amber's prop Glock. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:01, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

I noticed on that blog that Babydoll's M1911 has a rounded A1 mainspring housing, while the gun used in the movie clearly has a flat mainspring housing. Think the gun was changed before it was put on display or was it a seperate gun used as a backup for the "hero gun"? -MissySummers-

Talk:Sucker Punch

2011-12-05T09:25:16Z

StarSummers: /* Reflex Sight on the UMP/M4 */

Talk:Taken (2008)

2011-12-05T06:14:41Z

StarSummers: /* Flinching */

==Overview==
How's it look? This movie was kind of hard to screencap due to its fast pace. Many guns I had to constantly go back and go frame by frame to grab. If I missed any, they would be too hard to ID anyway, but I think I got them all. The introduction of newer guns was a refreshing challenge, and a step up from the typical movie guns. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

:Awesome job, I was hoping one of you guys would take up this movie soon, I was considering it for awhile. When Jean-Claude was trying to arrest Brian, were there any clear shots of the guns his men had when they found his phone/walkie talkie? I can't remember. [[User:Diego Wolfwood|Diego Wolfwood]]
::I'll check, there could be a possibility. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::It looks great! I rented this movie Friday and thought about screencapping it myself, but I'm really busy with my class, so I didn't have time to do it myself. I think you pretty much got everything. In fact, you even got some guns that I think I would have missed. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]
:::Very well done, as usual GM! Better than i ever could. -[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]

::Hey Diego, I checked and one guy had a Mossberg 590 shotgun (which I'll add to the main page, but it is a VERY blurry shot), and one cop had a Beretta, but there's already enough shots, so it can go here. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
[[Image:TakenExtraBeretta.jpg|thumb|none|600px|One of Jean-Claude's cops searches the roof for Bryan armed with a Beretta 92FS.]]

==SIG P229 to P239==
:I'm not sure this is a P229. The trigger guard seems too round. I think it is actually a P239. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]
::I agree, it looks more like a P239, it has a rounded trigger guard and a it is a bit smaller.-[[User:GunnutHk|GunnutHk]]
:::If you look at a SIG P239, the slide cuts stops 3/4ths of the way to the end of the slide. This cut goes all the way to the end, so I figured it was a P229. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

::::Huh? Sorry, I don't follow. Only on the older model P220s and P226s (the ones with the mandrel-stamped slides) is there a .75" space between the cocking serrations and the rear of the slide. The P239 doesn't have that. Also, look at the first screenshot of him taking the gun out. On a P229, the slide profile makes the cocking serrations visible if seen from the front (they hang out from the side), while a P239 doesn't have that. Also, the hammer seems to be the wrong shape, too. I say, definitely P239. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

::::::Okay, here's my explaination (read closely, this is hard to explain).
[[Image:SigP239.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Okay, see how the cocking serrations are full length and the single line going horizontally across the slide stops at the serrations? Well on a P229, the line goes through the cocking serrations and the serrations are cut to half their size.]]

It's hard to explain but you look at the shots from the movie:

[[Image:TakenSIGP229-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Note how the horizontal line goes through the cocking serrations, unlike a P239.]]

Now, I agree it doesn't quite match a P229, but I don't think it is a P239, unless they make a better matched model I'm unaware of. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

:Ah, now I see what you're confused. The answer is that it's an earlier-model P239. The newer guns (MPM's P239 picture is one of the newer ones) have the slide with the cocking serrations going to the top, but the older-model P239s don't (the cocking serrations only go up halfway, like on the P229). See the Remtek entry on the P239, which has a picture of an older model P239:

:http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/239/239.htm

:See now? -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

::Yeah, I get it now. I wasn't aware of the older model. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

==Flinching==
I don't honestly think it's flinching, guys, just a grimace. Like Max Payne in the first game, ya know? Maybe I just want to believe Liam Neeson's the next great action star/ OPERATOR, but I honestly don't think he's flinching.-protoAuthor

I thought Neeson did a convincing job of being a highly trained CIA Operative. In the shootout in the house in Paris, he shoots everyone with a single round, center mass, instead of screaming through the magazine for everyone person he comes across, like in most action movies. For me personally, it seemed to suggest he was highly trained. -MissySummers-

==Taurus Millennium Pro==
Should the PT111 and the PT145 be put in different sections? They're the same model but made in different calibers. Is that enough to warrent separating them? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

==Unknown Pistols==
'''[moved from main]''' --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 19:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Since the films pace is quick and stylish, there are very few points where scenes slow down, which means some guns are never seen clearly in focus, denying IMFDB of a clear indentification. Two guns in the film were never seen clearly.
[[Image:TakenUnknownPistol-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A slaver at the facility fires at Bryan with an unknown pistol.]]
Looking at the first picture, I would say that it looks like a CZ75 to me.
Does anyone else think it looks like a Ruger of some kind? The slide looks like it could be a Ruger P89 or P90 and also the trigger guard looks like its from a Ruger.[[Special:Contributions/98.175.58.228|98.175.58.228]] 21:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:TakenUnknownPistol-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An Albanian guard is killed by Bryan while armed with an unknown pistol.]]

*protoAuthor here, I think it's a CZ75
*Could also be a CZ100, due to the wide trigger guard.

==Tutone Overflow==
Watched this again, I love this movie. But man, were there a lot of two tone guns or is that just me?

==Anybody else think this is the closest we are going to get to a Splinter Cell movie?==
Theres the scene where he's climbing on the walls next to some red pipes. Then there's the throat chops and other kinds of melee attacks and then theres the hiding in a corner and popping out an shooting people. Not to mention his skills with a pistol.

Talk:Collateral

2011-12-05T05:36:36Z

StarSummers: /* Officer from near the end of the movie */

== Colt 9mm SMG ==

Can't speak to it's use in the US but Mexican tourist police carry them. - Nyles
: They are issued to DEA agents from what I know. Some police stations are issued them as well. -GM

::If you ever find pictures of Department of Energy security teams from immediately after 9/11, you will see quite a few of these in use. As best I know, though, they've mostly replaced their 9mm subguns with M4s, same as most LE tactical units nowadays. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 16:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

==Vincent's Holster==
With many people wondering what Vincent's holster is, I took some shots to help everyone out.
[[Image:Vincent'sHolster.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A zoomed in shot of Vincent's inside the waist holster when he draws it on the robbers.]]
[[Image:Vincent'sRig.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Here's zoomed shots of both his holster and his mag holders.]]
[[Image:CollateralVincent'sHolsterISW.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Vincent's holster when the cab crashes.]]

Hope this helps someone I.D. them. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

It sure helped me ID that Tom Cruise wore some tight freaking pants!

According to the DVD commentary, Tom Cruise used a serpa holster for the USP. So maybe he used one for the movie as well.

Those mag carriers are nice, Got 3 of them because of this movie and love them.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

According the the HKPro forums, a member contacted Mick Gould, the firearms instructor for the film, about the holster. The holster he used in training was a example of a Yaqui Slide type holster. But, the holster in the film was custom made, and Cruise kept it after filming. I can add some credit to this, as I've searched through almost every hoslter maker with a website, and found nothing even remotely similar. But, of course, this is the internet, and people can say whatever they want.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:39, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

==The Train Scene==

when the lights come back on after the shootout, vincent, who has lost so much blood that his fine motor skills are beginning to deteriorate, does appear to have a full mag in his holders. when the movie cuts to the mag hitting the floor, even in stadard definition one can see that there are bullets in the mag. i am fairly certain that the cut is not of an empty mag hitting the floor, but vincent has dropped his last full mag and realizes that that he has been beaten. i know that this is a gun info site however i thought showing the correct sequence of events might be of some importance.
::You can see the plastic red follower on the top of the magazine, an obvious indication it is empty. He also searches his belt for a long time to find a spare magazine. You should keep in mind he took the guards 5906 but no spare mags, so he didn't have anything to reload with anyway. I believe Mann commented on this in the DVD commentary but I might have to go back and check. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::''I always thought that Vincent had been going to reload, but dropped his one spare as a result of involuntary loss of control of his support hand, because he looks like he's got something in his hands right before he pitches forward and the camera cuts to the magazine hitting the floor.'' --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 00:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Gunmaster for pointing that out. at the time i wrote my original comment, i was unaware of the red followers as my S&W 1006 has white ones and my 4506 has black followers. looking at the frame and watching the movie again i can see the follower, not a cartridge.

*Originally, in the script, he actually WAS to have another mag, but fumbled. That was changed, though.-protoAuthor 04:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

well if he did fumble on that reload , wouldnt there be two magizines on the floor . the only one that hits looks like the one he had spent .[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

I always thought that Vincent picked up the guards gun cause he lost his in the car crash. when he emptied it in the shootout he instinctively reached for another mag to reload but realized he didnt have mags for that gun. - EVNASH

that is why he took the guards gun, but i think he realised he was wounded, was out of magizines, and gave up--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

It's a little hard to catch, but if you listen to the scene, you can hear the empty magazine hit the floor before just before he reaches for a new one and the scene cuts. So, he does have one more magazine in his holders, and he does fumble the reload, but the armorers for the film left the last mag empty, probably as a safety precaution.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:34, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

That was movie editing, he would have been diving for it if he had one. You can see him check both holders and come up surprised he
didn't have a spare. I've done it myself at the range once. (Same magazine holders too.)--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:05, 3 December 2011 (CST)

== Just bought the movie ==
Man(n), this movie is awesome. -protoAuthor 18:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

== Ruger Mark II ==

The Ruger mark II is used t kill Daniel the club owner. After that it is never seen again, so I'm assuming Vincent put it in his briefcase which Max threw off the bridge, which is why it's never seen again. This became clear when in the train scene Vincent reaches for a magazines off his holders but he is fresh out, if he had his Ruger he could of used that. Also Vincent must of reloaded his Smith & Wesson 5906, so I guess it must use the same ammunition as a USP-45 either that or the security guard must of had spare clips. Could someone please verify this- thank you.
:Well, seeing as the 5906 is a 9mm and the USP45 is a .45, he must have gotten the MAGAZINES (not clips) from the security guard. That's an interesting point about the Ruger, though. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 17:13, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
:He didn't ever reload the S&W. He only fires 1 mag. He didn't take any mags.-protoAuthor 03:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Plus he uses one at Fever and loses the other after the car wreck. You can see it fall off.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that the magazine that drops is a spare magazine. Why would a well trained assassin take someone's gun but not spare ammunition for it just in case? The magazine doesn't look empty that drops and he is shot on the side of the body which his hand he uses to get the spare magazines from is on. Plus the way it is edited makes me think that it slipped out of his hand. He isn't a robot, if he didn't take spares he would know that he doesn't have any spare magazines and would not try to reload. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 20:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

That mag that dropped was from the gun and was empty, also there are alot of people that don't carry a spare magazine and this guard may have been one of those. http://www.kyimports.com/images/smw15rd5906.jpg--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Well Vincent is a bit stupid then, but then again he did get killed by a cab driver lol. That to me is poor editing as well, surely if they would have meant that to be the ejected magazine the shot of it hitting the floor should have come before the one of him reaching for another one. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 00:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

== Final shoot out. ==

In this article, it offers what appears to be a very assured explanation of the final shootout at the end of the movie. It claims that Vincent lost the battle because of his failure to change his killing pattern, blindly following the same method he uses to kill all his targets. I think that this theory is incorrect. Don't you think a hitman as experienced and capable as Vincent would know enough to change his method when it is clear it wouldn't work? While Vincent prefers to shoot his victims with the two-in-the-chest, one-in-the-head method, I'm sure that this tactic is used when he deems it appropriate, and I'm sure a man like Vincent, as intelligent as he is, would not stupidly follow this pattern when it obviously wouldn't work. When a metal door is blocking a clear shot of his target, I'm sure Vincent would know better than to shoot at the door itself, and take advantage of the situation and try to shoot through the windows.

How can a trained hitman like Vincent, lose against Max who has no training what so ever shooting single-handed when Vincent used both hands and fired with a good grip on the gun ? ([[AceV]])

:Lucky shot? But yeah, I get it, that last scene was a bit stupid when clearly a trained professional wouldn't just shoot at a metal door. He should have waited for Max to shoot and empty his gun since Vincent knows Max is an untrained taxi driver. I'm also wondering since Vincent lost his primary weapon, shouldn't he have a back up? He is an ex-military, special forces kind of guy after all. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

well, vincent had (kind of) a back up gun, his ruger markII. It was in the bag, which max threw down the bridge and was crushed by the truck.

Well, Vincent was pretty pissed off at the end, what with being shot in the head and all. That may have clouded his judgment of situation a bit. --[[User:AlkoTanko|AlkoTanko]] 19:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well it pissed me off, Vincent spent the whole movie, killing people, people who have actually at least touched a gun and then all of a sudden an untrained cab driver just comes and kills him, in a a shoot out, not from behind or anything a shoot out, that was dissapointing. ([[AceV]])

Just because he's skilled at killing people doesn't mean Vincent is indestructable, and just because Max never touched a gun doesn't mean he's going to fall over and die at the first stiff breeze to come along. People die all the time and they don't go out in a blaze of glory, it just happens, that's life. Besides, the whole scene at the end was about Vincent not changing his routine. The way he still reaches for magazines even though he's carrying a different weapon, how he goes for the mozambique drill even though there's a big steel train door between him and Max instead of shooting through the glass, etc. For all his talk of improvisation he was too set in his ways and couldn't prepare for a cab driver.

i agree with what the aformentioned says. in stead of adapting to the situation, he went with what he knew. which was the mozambique drill , which turned out to be his downfall in the end.[[simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

It goes along with what Vincent was preaching to Max about earlier; to adapt and evolve to your surroundings. Vincent relied on the Mozambique drill he had perfected, even when he didn't have a clear shot on Max. Max clumsily shot around in multiple directions, increasing his chances to hit his unseen target. Max was able to evolve, Vincent wasn't. There's also some argument to the idea of a chaotic outcome, in that in the movie when Max steps out in front on the train for the last time to face Vincent, he closes his eyes as well as fireing the weapon with no regard for his aim other then the single direction towards Vincent. This is confirmed by the director Mann in the movies commentary, in fact Mann goes on to say the only reason Max succeeds is because the character closes his eyes and throws the dice so to speak. Again going back to the idea of improvisation, Max was willing to take the gamble where as Vincent played the safe bet, and the outcome was in Max's favor.

I'd say Vincent got something called "paralysis by analysis". When you have the mechanics of something well figured out its best to just let it happen. Choking occurs when people who know better start thinking too hard about what they need to do. The added pressure forces your brain into a state called "paralysis by analysis" where the "working memory" part of your brain literally stops working, and the more talented you are the more working memory you have meaning the harder the failure. --[[User:Devang.dn|Devang.dn]] 23:23, 22 March 2011 (CDT)

== Slight comment overhaul ==
I did some work praising the good gun work on the movie, you guys like it?-protoAuthor 04:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No

Ralph pls go.--[[User:AlkoTanko|AlkoTanko]] 11:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice.--[[User:Spikemonkey|Spikemonkey]] 18:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

=="the first gun we see"==
It says "Detective Fanning (Mark Ruffalo) draws the first gun we see, a Smith & Wesson 4516 in .45 ACP". This is not true. the First gun we see is Vincents USP when he pulls it on max after el gordo falls out the window onto the taxi and max freaks out.

== Ruger Mark II ==

Why would the suppressed shots be louder than the guys head hitting the table? In case you didn't know, suppressors were made to make guns quieter. Even in a confined space, a silenced .22 with sub-sonic rounds (that's probably what Vincent would have used anyway, condidering that he's a hitman and cared enough to use a silenced pistol anyways) is ''very'' quiet. I have also shot a silenced .22 (a Ruger 77/22 bolt action, although this was outdoors so maybe the sound didn't travel as much, but that's not the point) and it was very quiet. With a bolt action gun it's even quiter since the bolt doesn't move with each shot. But anyways, the only sound a suppressed Ruger mark II would make (and made in the movie) is a slight click when the action cycles. This would have been quiter than a slamming head, unless he had a really fatty forehead. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 22:34, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
:Also, if the guy's head had hit the table, he would have knocked over glasses, and knocked the table to the ground, which is MUCH louder than any suppressed gunfire.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 22:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

A sub-sonic round in a .22 cal would not be able to cycle the action of a semi-auto, so if he shot more then once he wasnt using sub-sonic, ergo, the bullet would be over the sound barer and create that ol' classic crack of the round discharging. But for movie sake they we're probably just making the gun sound cooler. [[Spades of Columbia]]

:My Ruger Mk II cycles fine with sub-sonic rounds, and I didn't modify it at all. --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 17:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Making Vincent is so resourceful he has a modded Ruger that has a weaker spring that cycles when shot with sub sonics. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 17:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The point was to explain why the "suppressed" gun was loud, not how it could in some way or another shoot a sub-sonic round. If that was the case a person could easily argue that he was using a 1050fps sub-sonic rd which in some guns can feed without modifacation instead of the normal 710fps round. [[Spades of Columbia]]

Yeah but (and correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't he have shot him from such a close range that the bullet wouldn't have been able to break the sound barrier? Also, I agree with FIVETWOSEVEN on the theory of the modified spring. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 02:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

You've been corrected because your wrong...the powder burn would have been spent by the end of the barrel which uses the twist rate to fully bust its velosity, meaning, its pretty much going its top speed by the end of the barrel and the crack noice is usually signifying the bullet has left the firearm...combined with the noice of a all-steel action clanking together as it cycles the next round make a "Silenced" pistol, not so silent. [[Spades of Columbia]]

What do you mean the "normal" 710 fps round? That would be a CB Long or Short, not a normal round. Also watch this vid of a guy using an integrally suppressed Ruger Mark II with standard velocity ammo; I hear no crack. http://suppressorbuyersguide.com/Articles.php?action=detail&g=content1235373509s
And note that this suppressor is even shorter than the one that Vincent had, making it even less effective and yet still cycling and being very quiet with standard velocity ammo. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 03:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

You are very much correct sir. You did indeed prove me wrong on that one...but originally i was trying to explain why it might have been so loud in the movie for being silenced...any thoughts on that.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 18:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

probably a decision made by the sound guys. Most people want to hear that distinctive chirp so they know, "oh hey, his gun had a silencer on it." Just playing into the audience's preconceptions.

Question for everyone: take a close look at the picture with the street thug holding the pistol to Max's head. It looks more like a Walther PPK or PPK/s. I own a couple so I'm familiar with the details on the rear of the slide and this photo looks more Walther than SIG. Could be just the way it looks, but it seems that way to me.

Its a SIG, look at the extractor. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention the cocking serrations. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 23:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

What does Vincent finally do with the SIG ? I'm pretty sure he retrieves it from the thug. Does he lose it along with the rest of his belongings ? - Devang

He didn't pick it up, he picked up Max's wallet.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

==Fanning==
How come when Detective Fanning enters Ramon's apartment he draws his gun one handed and clears the entire apartment one handed? Wouldn't most trained cops clear a room with both hands on their weapon?

One word, Preference.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

He was still undercover at the time, so he didn't want to look like a cop. -[[User:nkingman|nkingman]]

actualy he wasnt undercover . Ramon was an informant . i agree with 527.-[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Hes actually a Detective.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 05:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

My problem is that his finger is on the trigger the whole time. Seems unsafe if you are looking for an informer. --[[User:Westernman1987|Westernman1987]]

No, Fanning's not the informant, he's going to the home of the informant who Vincent just shot and sent through a window. The trigger on the finger thing is a bit unprofessional but in a stress induced situation, you sometimes forget [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Ramon was a Federal witness. It's been a while since I've seen the film but I got the impression that Fanning was an undercover narcotic's officer judging by the fake accent when he is asking for Ramon and his appearance. I assumed he was undercover trying to bust Ramon. Like I said though it's been a while since I watched it. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:12, 3 April 2011 (CDT)

Hes Not a witness, Hes An Informant, Fanning Is LAPD, If He was A Federal witness, He Would Be In Witness Protection With The U.S. Marshals. Fanning When To See His CI (confidential Informant), Saw Signs Of A Strugel, IE The Door Being Left Open, No Answer After Repeted calls of His NAme, And Claered The House. He Should Have Kepy His Finger Off The Triger Since There Were No Signs Of exigent circumstances. and Going In One Handed Could Be One Of Two Things. It Was To Hide The Fact That He Is LAPD And Keep Ramon Safe, As [[User:nkingman|nkingman]] Pointed Out, Or, And This Is More Likely, He Just Pulled, And So He Could Pop His Head, And His Gun Hand Out, And Have Hib Body Remain In Cover, Like He Does In The Second To Last Photo.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Simmons did you even watch the film? Everyone that Vincent killed was a Federal witness for the prosecution. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 18:30, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

I Did Watch The Film, But The Term Federal Is Being Thrown Around To Much. The One Witness I Would Call A Federal Witness Would Be The One At Fever, Because The FBI Was Watching Him. Just Because Your A Witness, Doesnt Mean Your A Federal One. Not To Mention, Fanning Calls Him An Informant.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

They were all witnesses in the same trial. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 20:42, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

Ramon was an informant. Not a witness. The man in fever was a witness. No one said ramon was going to testify.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

YES THEY DID! In the scene where Fanning meets the FBI outside Felix's club he tells them about Ramon and Pedrosa says that's 3 witnesses so far. Just because you don't pay attention doesn't make what you think so. Nothing annoys me more is people who don't pay attention and then try to tell people who did that they are wrong. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:36, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

Fanning isnt involved in that case. Ramon is still fanning CI. Thats what ties him into this case. Hes trying to find out what happened to his CI. I will admit that ramon was also a witness, if he was a federal witness, i dont understand why he and clark were not being watched by the U.S. marshals or the FBI (which i have no clue why there watching witnesses). When fanning went to see him, it wasnt to see him as a witness. It was to see him as his informant.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Yeah but he was still a witness. Fanning looked undercover to me. How many times do you see in films that local cops are investigating criminals who the Feds have as a witness? The Feds weren't watching the guy in club fever they just knew where he hung out. The guy in club Fever was being watched by his own men that's why it took the Feds so long to get on the scene. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:52, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

The reason i think he wasnt undercover is because he had to keep ramons identity as a CI intact, and he doesnt change how he looked or anything. Also if hed had his badge. I dont know if he did because he is never really seen drawing it from his waist. So in a way he is undercover. And if you are a federal witness, even if you do NOT go it to witness protection, the Marshals watch you. Now that i think about it, not only was the FBI actually watching felix and doing the right thing, but no branch of law enforcement was watching these witnesses.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

If there had been it would have been a very different film as Tom would have had to kill the Marshals at each hit and word would have gotten out. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 03:50, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

Well he handled the guards at fever very well. Id like to think that a former special forces soldier turned private sector mercinary would be able to handle himself in a situation like that.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Yeah but word would have gotten out about Marshals being killed and the Feds would have secured the guy in Fever a lot sooner I imagine. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 09:21, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

True, But i would imagine that vincent would know that they would be there, and be prepaired to deal with the marshals moving the witnesses. I just would have liked to see how it would go down. your from the UK. What do they do with witnesses?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

No idea. Knowing how screwed up our government is probably just leave them alone until they get murdered. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:58, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

That is a great way to deal with witnesses.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Well they dealt with the riots by sitting back and just waiting for people to obey the law again. I feel sorry for the police in my country because no matter what they do they get chastised for it. They shoot a drug dealer who was illegally carrying a handgun and they murdered an innocent man. A guy breaks loose with a shotgun and goes on a killing spree and they aren't using enough force. They are always been called facists by people who don't have a clue about how the world works. I'd love to dump all the people who think the police in my country are corrupt, violent facists in somewhere where the police will kidnap and torture random people at the behest of the dictatorship government and then see what they think of our police. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 05:33, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

It would be great if the righters all wore [[V for Vendetta| the "V" masks]].Do the poliece in the UK carry handguns? Because i know that when on high alert, they jump right to the MP5, and does the UK have a SWAT/HRT?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

The rioters weren't making any political point it was just a bunch of pricks who wanted to kick up a fuss. And we have specialised armed response units that are armed. The normal everyday cop on the street isn't armed. The UK has CO19 which is a specialist armed response unit. Normal everyday people did more to stop the rioters than the police did, but it's not the police's fault really it's the government refusing to allow them to do what was necessary until it was too late. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 05:53, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

Thats the down side to being in law enforcement. If you have to use dealy force, its excesive force, but if the suspect does kill an officer, your not using enough force. The world is such a backwards place. inn the words of [[Jack Nicholson]] as Col. Nathan R. Jessep in [[A Few Good Men]] "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Good quote. It's a shame that Jessop ends up being a bit mental. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 18:26, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

At least he isnt a scientoligest.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Umm, you mean scientoLOGIst, right?... --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 15:16, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

I mean crazy.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Now ''that''... I can agree on --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 18:26, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

Good man. But what did the rioters want?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Some prat got himself shot and some more prats decided that it was a good excuse to go rioting for no obvious reason --[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 08:04, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== hk 45 ==

Where can You find the new pics of tom cruise hk 45?

Its a USP 45, not a HK45, also it looks like any other USP.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 15:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

== Fanning's pistol ==

Fanning is not carrying a S&W 4516 in this movie. If you notice in the first screenshoot of him as he enters the apartment, the frame is contrasted sharply with the slide and guiderod. It has a duller "gray" color. The frame is not stainless, it is anodized alloy. There are no 3rd gen compact 45 guns made by S&W with allow frames other than the TSW and Recon versions (performance center). Fanning's gun doesn't have a rail or a "tactical" or "recon" billboard on the left side of the slide so that rules those out. The shadow of the first screenshot makes the bore look larger than it is but the second screenshot shows it's true size. That is a 9mm bore. Unless someone has some inside knowledge of this film and this is a specially made alloy framed, non-TSW compact 45, it should be changed to a S&W 3913.--[[User:Luckyluciano|Luckyluciano]] 05:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the gun is alloy framed and a non-TSW compact. It could be a 3913, but then it could also be a single stack non-TSW 4013. This verison of the 4013 is identical to the 4516, but in .40S&W and with an alloy frame. Also, Fanning's gun has a larger "beavertail" than what a 3913 would have.

The beavertail could be indicative of a 4013 but that would really depend on the size of the actor's hands since we don't have a plain view side shot of the gun itself. The other thing to note is that the magazines he carries (as seen when they first investigate Ramon's murder and the cab crime scene) have staggered holes in them. The 4013 magazine holes are in a straight vertical line but the 3913 magazines have staggered holes. That might not mean anything as the could easily have a 4013 as a prop gun and magazines from any other gun on his hip. --[[User:Luckyluciano|Luckyluciano]] 14:57, 16 March 2011 (CDT)

== Officer from near the end of the movie ==

We see the picture of the cop, who is an actual LAPD Officer, holding his issue Beretta, but we can see his thumb layered over his dominant hand. Thats just asking for slidebite. It seems like a poor grip for an actual LAPD officer. -MissySummers-

It all varies on the training. Some guns you can do that all day without slide bite.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:10, 3 December 2011 (CST)

Fair enough. A friend of mine just took classes to obtain his firearms license and they were teaching cup and saucer method as "the best method to control recoil" as i quote from the teacher. -MissySummers-

Talk:Collateral

2011-12-05T05:05:11Z

StarSummers: /* Officer from near the end of the movie */

User:StarSummers

2011-12-04T00:59:51Z

StarSummers:

My name is Melissa Summers, im an avid shooter, and collector and part time gunsmith.

Ive been shooting since i was young. I started at around 10 with a 22 Rifle that belonged to my grandfather and the rest is history. Ive been shooting and collecting firearms since i was legally able to.

My current collection includes an Ed Brown Kobra Carry and other 1911s.

The 1911 is by far my favourite handgun and one that i trust my life to everyday.

I gotta add it here, cause its driving me nuts, i just watched the show "Triggers" on the Military Channel. They cover various weapons throughout history, This particular episode was about the Colt 1911. There were quite a few small mistakes that bothered me for a show thats supposed to deal with weapons. The first was, the animated model they used to represent the Colt Single Action Army, was CLEARLY a Colt Walker. As well he refered to the Colt Paterson as a double action pistol, which it very obviously isnt.

User:StarSummers

2011-12-04T00:51:56Z

StarSummers: Created page with "My name is Melissa Summers, im an avid shooter, and collector and part time gunsmith. Ive been shooting since i was young. I started at around 10 with a 22 Rifle that belonged ..."

Talk:National Treasure: Book of Secrets

2011-12-04T00:49:42Z

StarSummers: /* 1911 */

== 1911 ==

The nickel 1911 isn't an A1. It has to long a trigger.

If it is nickle it is not a 1911. Notice the dished out area by the trigger guard an A1 feature. It is obviously a custom gun so why nit pick over a easily replaceable part as a trigger. I have one trigger in each length trying to get the proper feel for me. I don't think mine flops back and forth between A1 and not A1. besides it was built in 2001.

Why does it say that the 1911 is in .38 super on the screenshot? Also it has the flat spring housing instead of the rounded one so it is a custom 1911 and not a straight out 1911 or 1911A1 most likely using a series 80 frame. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 07:46, 2 December 2011 (CST)

Can we be certain that its a .38 Super? It seems like its much more likely its chambered in .45. Although we never get a close up of the muzzle to identify the caliber. Id say its unlikely to be .38.

That was my point, it is likely to be either a .45 or a 9mm. Has there ever been a .38 super 1911 in films before? --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 04:34, 3 December 2011 (CST)

I believe its been listed else where here, on the Public Enemies page that there has never been a .38 Super blank fire converted weapon in any movie. So id leave it that the gun shown here is a .45 -MissySummers-

== Glock 19 with 4" barrel? ==

The main page says one of the British Agents is armed with a Glock 19 with a 4 inch barrel. As far as i know, there hasnt even been a "shortened barrel" Glock 19. Isnt it more likely its a Glock 26 with a grip extension?

Those guns aren't even G19's. The grips and the barrel are both in the sub-compact range, pointing towards being a G26. The barrel is also definitely shorter than 4". --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 08:58, 2 December 2011 (CST)
:The near gun is definitely a Glock 19. You can tell by the fact that the "step" in the frame towards the muzzle is forward from the trigger guard, as opposed to on the Glock 26 where it is in line with it (and it also at a shallower angle). Not 100% about the rear gun though as you can't see it as clearly but think it is a 19 as well. I think the positioning of the rear agent's finger is making the barrel appear shorter than it is. If it was a Glock 26 there would be less frame than that in front of the serial number plate. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:36, 2 December 2011 (CST)

Well, i was trying to figure out what exactly the caption on the picture was trying to say. It seemed like nonsense to me. Im pretty sure the Glock 19 has a 4 inch barrel to begin with. -MissySummers-
:The original caption was "The agent on the left's barrel is too short to be a Glock 19. It is the Glock 19 with the 4" barrel" which is nonsense. Either the person who wrote it meant the first 19 to be a 17, or the second 19 to be a 26 and also got the barrel length wrong. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 20:01, 2 December 2011 (CST)

::Glock 19s do have 4 inch barrels to begin with, the Glock 17 has a 4.5 inch barrel and the Glock 26 has a 3.46 inch barrel. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:28, 2 December 2011 (CST)

Talk:Collateral

2011-12-04T00:47:43Z

StarSummers: /* Officer from near the end of the movie */ new section

== Colt 9mm SMG ==

Can't speak to it's use in the US but Mexican tourist police carry them. - Nyles
: They are issued to DEA agents from what I know. Some police stations are issued them as well. -GM

::If you ever find pictures of Department of Energy security teams from immediately after 9/11, you will see quite a few of these in use. As best I know, though, they've mostly replaced their 9mm subguns with M4s, same as most LE tactical units nowadays. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 16:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

==Vincent's Holster==
With many people wondering what Vincent's holster is, I took some shots to help everyone out.
[[Image:Vincent'sHolster.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A zoomed in shot of Vincent's inside the waist holster when he draws it on the robbers.]]
[[Image:Vincent'sRig.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Here's zoomed shots of both his holster and his mag holders.]]
[[Image:CollateralVincent'sHolsterISW.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Vincent's holster when the cab crashes.]]

Hope this helps someone I.D. them. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

It sure helped me ID that Tom Cruise wore some tight freaking pants!

According to the DVD commentary, Tom Cruise used a serpa holster for the USP. So maybe he used one for the movie as well.

Those mag carriers are nice, Got 3 of them because of this movie and love them.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

According the the HKPro forums, a member contacted Mick Gould, the firearms instructor for the film, about the holster. The holster he used in training was a example of a Yaqui Slide type holster. But, the holster in the film was custom made, and Cruise kept it after filming. I can add some credit to this, as I've searched through almost every hoslter maker with a website, and found nothing even remotely similar. But, of course, this is the internet, and people can say whatever they want.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:39, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

==The Train Scene==

when the lights come back on after the shootout, vincent, who has lost so much blood that his fine motor skills are beginning to deteriorate, does appear to have a full mag in his holders. when the movie cuts to the mag hitting the floor, even in stadard definition one can see that there are bullets in the mag. i am fairly certain that the cut is not of an empty mag hitting the floor, but vincent has dropped his last full mag and realizes that that he has been beaten. i know that this is a gun info site however i thought showing the correct sequence of events might be of some importance.
::You can see the plastic red follower on the top of the magazine, an obvious indication it is empty. He also searches his belt for a long time to find a spare magazine. You should keep in mind he took the guards 5906 but no spare mags, so he didn't have anything to reload with anyway. I believe Mann commented on this in the DVD commentary but I might have to go back and check. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::''I always thought that Vincent had been going to reload, but dropped his one spare as a result of involuntary loss of control of his support hand, because he looks like he's got something in his hands right before he pitches forward and the camera cuts to the magazine hitting the floor.'' --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 00:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Gunmaster for pointing that out. at the time i wrote my original comment, i was unaware of the red followers as my S&W 1006 has white ones and my 4506 has black followers. looking at the frame and watching the movie again i can see the follower, not a cartridge.

*Originally, in the script, he actually WAS to have another mag, but fumbled. That was changed, though.-protoAuthor 04:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

well if he did fumble on that reload , wouldnt there be two magizines on the floor . the only one that hits looks like the one he had spent .[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

I always thought that Vincent picked up the guards gun cause he lost his in the car crash. when he emptied it in the shootout he instinctively reached for another mag to reload but realized he didnt have mags for that gun. - EVNASH

that is why he took the guards gun, but i think he realised he was wounded, was out of magizines, and gave up--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

It's a little hard to catch, but if you listen to the scene, you can hear the empty magazine hit the floor before just before he reaches for a new one and the scene cuts. So, he does have one more magazine in his holders, and he does fumble the reload, but the armorers for the film left the last mag empty, probably as a safety precaution.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:34, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

== Just bought the movie ==
Man(n), this movie is awesome. -protoAuthor 18:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

== Ruger Mark II ==

The Ruger mark II is used t kill Daniel the club owner. After that it is never seen again, so I'm assuming Vincent put it in his briefcase which Max threw off the bridge, which is why it's never seen again. This became clear when in the train scene Vincent reaches for a magazines off his holders but he is fresh out, if he had his Ruger he could of used that. Also Vincent must of reloaded his Smith & Wesson 5906, so I guess it must use the same ammunition as a USP-45 either that or the security guard must of had spare clips. Could someone please verify this- thank you.
:Well, seeing as the 5906 is a 9mm and the USP45 is a .45, he must have gotten the MAGAZINES (not clips) from the security guard. That's an interesting point about the Ruger, though. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 17:13, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
:He didn't ever reload the S&W. He only fires 1 mag. He didn't take any mags.-protoAuthor 03:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Plus he uses one at Fever and loses the other after the car wreck. You can see it fall off.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that the magazine that drops is a spare magazine. Why would a well trained assassin take someone's gun but not spare ammunition for it just in case? The magazine doesn't look empty that drops and he is shot on the side of the body which his hand he uses to get the spare magazines from is on. Plus the way it is edited makes me think that it slipped out of his hand. He isn't a robot, if he didn't take spares he would know that he doesn't have any spare magazines and would not try to reload. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 20:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

That mag that dropped was from the gun and was empty, also there are alot of people that don't carry a spare magazine and this guard may have been one of those. http://www.kyimports.com/images/smw15rd5906.jpg--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Well Vincent is a bit stupid then, but then again he did get killed by a cab driver lol. That to me is poor editing as well, surely if they would have meant that to be the ejected magazine the shot of it hitting the floor should have come before the one of him reaching for another one. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 00:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

== Final shoot out. ==

In this article, it offers what appears to be a very assured explanation of the final shootout at the end of the movie. It claims that Vincent lost the battle because of his failure to change his killing pattern, blindly following the same method he uses to kill all his targets. I think that this theory is incorrect. Don't you think a hitman as experienced and capable as Vincent would know enough to change his method when it is clear it wouldn't work? While Vincent prefers to shoot his victims with the two-in-the-chest, one-in-the-head method, I'm sure that this tactic is used when he deems it appropriate, and I'm sure a man like Vincent, as intelligent as he is, would not stupidly follow this pattern when it obviously wouldn't work. When a metal door is blocking a clear shot of his target, I'm sure Vincent would know better than to shoot at the door itself, and take advantage of the situation and try to shoot through the windows.

How can a trained hitman like Vincent, lose against Max who has no training what so ever shooting single-handed when Vincent used both hands and fired with a good grip on the gun ? ([[AceV]])

:Lucky shot? But yeah, I get it, that last scene was a bit stupid when clearly a trained professional wouldn't just shoot at a metal door. He should have waited for Max to shoot and empty his gun since Vincent knows Max is an untrained taxi driver. I'm also wondering since Vincent lost his primary weapon, shouldn't he have a back up? He is an ex-military, special forces kind of guy after all. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

well, vincent had (kind of) a back up gun, his ruger markII. It was in the bag, which max threw down the bridge and was crushed by the truck.

Well, Vincent was pretty pissed off at the end, what with being shot in the head and all. That may have clouded his judgment of situation a bit. --[[User:AlkoTanko|AlkoTanko]] 19:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well it pissed me off, Vincent spent the whole movie, killing people, people who have actually at least touched a gun and then all of a sudden an untrained cab driver just comes and kills him, in a a shoot out, not from behind or anything a shoot out, that was dissapointing. ([[AceV]])

Just because he's skilled at killing people doesn't mean Vincent is indestructable, and just because Max never touched a gun doesn't mean he's going to fall over and die at the first stiff breeze to come along. People die all the time and they don't go out in a blaze of glory, it just happens, that's life. Besides, the whole scene at the end was about Vincent not changing his routine. The way he still reaches for magazines even though he's carrying a different weapon, how he goes for the mozambique drill even though there's a big steel train door between him and Max instead of shooting through the glass, etc. For all his talk of improvisation he was too set in his ways and couldn't prepare for a cab driver.

i agree with what the aformentioned says. in stead of adapting to the situation, he went with what he knew. which was the mozambique drill , which turned out to be his downfall in the end.[[simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

It goes along with what Vincent was preaching to Max about earlier; to adapt and evolve to your surroundings. Vincent relied on the Mozambique drill he had perfected, even when he didn't have a clear shot on Max. Max clumsily shot around in multiple directions, increasing his chances to hit his unseen target. Max was able to evolve, Vincent wasn't. There's also some argument to the idea of a chaotic outcome, in that in the movie when Max steps out in front on the train for the last time to face Vincent, he closes his eyes as well as fireing the weapon with no regard for his aim other then the single direction towards Vincent. This is confirmed by the director Mann in the movies commentary, in fact Mann goes on to say the only reason Max succeeds is because the character closes his eyes and throws the dice so to speak. Again going back to the idea of improvisation, Max was willing to take the gamble where as Vincent played the safe bet, and the outcome was in Max's favor.

I'd say Vincent got something called "paralysis by analysis". When you have the mechanics of something well figured out its best to just let it happen. Choking occurs when people who know better start thinking too hard about what they need to do. The added pressure forces your brain into a state called "paralysis by analysis" where the "working memory" part of your brain literally stops working, and the more talented you are the more working memory you have meaning the harder the failure. --[[User:Devang.dn|Devang.dn]] 23:23, 22 March 2011 (CDT)

== Slight comment overhaul ==
I did some work praising the good gun work on the movie, you guys like it?-protoAuthor 04:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No

Ralph pls go.--[[User:AlkoTanko|AlkoTanko]] 11:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice.--[[User:Spikemonkey|Spikemonkey]] 18:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

=="the first gun we see"==
It says "Detective Fanning (Mark Ruffalo) draws the first gun we see, a Smith & Wesson 4516 in .45 ACP". This is not true. the First gun we see is Vincents USP when he pulls it on max after el gordo falls out the window onto the taxi and max freaks out.

== Ruger Mark II ==

Why would the suppressed shots be louder than the guys head hitting the table? In case you didn't know, suppressors were made to make guns quieter. Even in a confined space, a silenced .22 with sub-sonic rounds (that's probably what Vincent would have used anyway, condidering that he's a hitman and cared enough to use a silenced pistol anyways) is ''very'' quiet. I have also shot a silenced .22 (a Ruger 77/22 bolt action, although this was outdoors so maybe the sound didn't travel as much, but that's not the point) and it was very quiet. With a bolt action gun it's even quiter since the bolt doesn't move with each shot. But anyways, the only sound a suppressed Ruger mark II would make (and made in the movie) is a slight click when the action cycles. This would have been quiter than a slamming head, unless he had a really fatty forehead. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 22:34, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
:Also, if the guy's head had hit the table, he would have knocked over glasses, and knocked the table to the ground, which is MUCH louder than any suppressed gunfire.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 22:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

A sub-sonic round in a .22 cal would not be able to cycle the action of a semi-auto, so if he shot more then once he wasnt using sub-sonic, ergo, the bullet would be over the sound barer and create that ol' classic crack of the round discharging. But for movie sake they we're probably just making the gun sound cooler. [[Spades of Columbia]]

:My Ruger Mk II cycles fine with sub-sonic rounds, and I didn't modify it at all. --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 17:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Making Vincent is so resourceful he has a modded Ruger that has a weaker spring that cycles when shot with sub sonics. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 17:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The point was to explain why the "suppressed" gun was loud, not how it could in some way or another shoot a sub-sonic round. If that was the case a person could easily argue that he was using a 1050fps sub-sonic rd which in some guns can feed without modifacation instead of the normal 710fps round. [[Spades of Columbia]]

Yeah but (and correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't he have shot him from such a close range that the bullet wouldn't have been able to break the sound barrier? Also, I agree with FIVETWOSEVEN on the theory of the modified spring. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 02:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

You've been corrected because your wrong...the powder burn would have been spent by the end of the barrel which uses the twist rate to fully bust its velosity, meaning, its pretty much going its top speed by the end of the barrel and the crack noice is usually signifying the bullet has left the firearm...combined with the noice of a all-steel action clanking together as it cycles the next round make a "Silenced" pistol, not so silent. [[Spades of Columbia]]

What do you mean the "normal" 710 fps round? That would be a CB Long or Short, not a normal round. Also watch this vid of a guy using an integrally suppressed Ruger Mark II with standard velocity ammo; I hear no crack. http://suppressorbuyersguide.com/Articles.php?action=detail&g=content1235373509s
And note that this suppressor is even shorter than the one that Vincent had, making it even less effective and yet still cycling and being very quiet with standard velocity ammo. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 03:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

You are very much correct sir. You did indeed prove me wrong on that one...but originally i was trying to explain why it might have been so loud in the movie for being silenced...any thoughts on that.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 18:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

probably a decision made by the sound guys. Most people want to hear that distinctive chirp so they know, "oh hey, his gun had a silencer on it." Just playing into the audience's preconceptions.

Question for everyone: take a close look at the picture with the street thug holding the pistol to Max's head. It looks more like a Walther PPK or PPK/s. I own a couple so I'm familiar with the details on the rear of the slide and this photo looks more Walther than SIG. Could be just the way it looks, but it seems that way to me.

Its a SIG, look at the extractor. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention the cocking serrations. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 23:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

What does Vincent finally do with the SIG ? I'm pretty sure he retrieves it from the thug. Does he lose it along with the rest of his belongings ? - Devang

He didn't pick it up, he picked up Max's wallet.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

==Fanning==
How come when Detective Fanning enters Ramon's apartment he draws his gun one handed and clears the entire apartment one handed? Wouldn't most trained cops clear a room with both hands on their weapon?

One word, Preference.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

He was still undercover at the time, so he didn't want to look like a cop. -[[User:nkingman|nkingman]]

actualy he wasnt undercover . Ramon was an informant . i agree with 527.-[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Hes actually a Detective.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 05:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

My problem is that his finger is on the trigger the whole time. Seems unsafe if you are looking for an informer. --[[User:Westernman1987|Westernman1987]]

No, Fanning's not the informant, he's going to the home of the informant who Vincent just shot and sent through a window. The trigger on the finger thing is a bit unprofessional but in a stress induced situation, you sometimes forget [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Ramon was a Federal witness. It's been a while since I've seen the film but I got the impression that Fanning was an undercover narcotic's officer judging by the fake accent when he is asking for Ramon and his appearance. I assumed he was undercover trying to bust Ramon. Like I said though it's been a while since I watched it. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:12, 3 April 2011 (CDT)

Hes Not a witness, Hes An Informant, Fanning Is LAPD, If He was A Federal witness, He Would Be In Witness Protection With The U.S. Marshals. Fanning When To See His CI (confidential Informant), Saw Signs Of A Strugel, IE The Door Being Left Open, No Answer After Repeted calls of His NAme, And Claered The House. He Should Have Kepy His Finger Off The Triger Since There Were No Signs Of exigent circumstances. and Going In One Handed Could Be One Of Two Things. It Was To Hide The Fact That He Is LAPD And Keep Ramon Safe, As [[User:nkingman|nkingman]] Pointed Out, Or, And This Is More Likely, He Just Pulled, And So He Could Pop His Head, And His Gun Hand Out, And Have Hib Body Remain In Cover, Like He Does In The Second To Last Photo.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Simmons did you even watch the film? Everyone that Vincent killed was a Federal witness for the prosecution. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 18:30, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

I Did Watch The Film, But The Term Federal Is Being Thrown Around To Much. The One Witness I Would Call A Federal Witness Would Be The One At Fever, Because The FBI Was Watching Him. Just Because Your A Witness, Doesnt Mean Your A Federal One. Not To Mention, Fanning Calls Him An Informant.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

They were all witnesses in the same trial. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 20:42, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

Ramon was an informant. Not a witness. The man in fever was a witness. No one said ramon was going to testify.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

YES THEY DID! In the scene where Fanning meets the FBI outside Felix's club he tells them about Ramon and Pedrosa says that's 3 witnesses so far. Just because you don't pay attention doesn't make what you think so. Nothing annoys me more is people who don't pay attention and then try to tell people who did that they are wrong. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:36, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

Fanning isnt involved in that case. Ramon is still fanning CI. Thats what ties him into this case. Hes trying to find out what happened to his CI. I will admit that ramon was also a witness, if he was a federal witness, i dont understand why he and clark were not being watched by the U.S. marshals or the FBI (which i have no clue why there watching witnesses). When fanning went to see him, it wasnt to see him as a witness. It was to see him as his informant.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Yeah but he was still a witness. Fanning looked undercover to me. How many times do you see in films that local cops are investigating criminals who the Feds have as a witness? The Feds weren't watching the guy in club fever they just knew where he hung out. The guy in club Fever was being watched by his own men that's why it took the Feds so long to get on the scene. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:52, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

The reason i think he wasnt undercover is because he had to keep ramons identity as a CI intact, and he doesnt change how he looked or anything. Also if hed had his badge. I dont know if he did because he is never really seen drawing it from his waist. So in a way he is undercover. And if you are a federal witness, even if you do NOT go it to witness protection, the Marshals watch you. Now that i think about it, not only was the FBI actually watching felix and doing the right thing, but no branch of law enforcement was watching these witnesses.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

If there had been it would have been a very different film as Tom would have had to kill the Marshals at each hit and word would have gotten out. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 03:50, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

Well he handled the guards at fever very well. Id like to think that a former special forces soldier turned private sector mercinary would be able to handle himself in a situation like that.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Yeah but word would have gotten out about Marshals being killed and the Feds would have secured the guy in Fever a lot sooner I imagine. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 09:21, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

True, But i would imagine that vincent would know that they would be there, and be prepaired to deal with the marshals moving the witnesses. I just would have liked to see how it would go down. your from the UK. What do they do with witnesses?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

No idea. Knowing how screwed up our government is probably just leave them alone until they get murdered. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:58, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

That is a great way to deal with witnesses.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Well they dealt with the riots by sitting back and just waiting for people to obey the law again. I feel sorry for the police in my country because no matter what they do they get chastised for it. They shoot a drug dealer who was illegally carrying a handgun and they murdered an innocent man. A guy breaks loose with a shotgun and goes on a killing spree and they aren't using enough force. They are always been called facists by people who don't have a clue about how the world works. I'd love to dump all the people who think the police in my country are corrupt, violent facists in somewhere where the police will kidnap and torture random people at the behest of the dictatorship government and then see what they think of our police. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 05:33, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

It would be great if the righters all wore [[V for Vendetta| the "V" masks]].Do the poliece in the UK carry handguns? Because i know that when on high alert, they jump right to the MP5, and does the UK have a SWAT/HRT?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

The rioters weren't making any political point it was just a bunch of pricks who wanted to kick up a fuss. And we have specialised armed response units that are armed. The normal everyday cop on the street isn't armed. The UK has CO19 which is a specialist armed response unit. Normal everyday people did more to stop the rioters than the police did, but it's not the police's fault really it's the government refusing to allow them to do what was necessary until it was too late. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 05:53, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

Thats the down side to being in law enforcement. If you have to use dealy force, its excesive force, but if the suspect does kill an officer, your not using enough force. The world is such a backwards place. inn the words of [[Jack Nicholson]] as Col. Nathan R. Jessep in [[A Few Good Men]] "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Good quote. It's a shame that Jessop ends up being a bit mental. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 18:26, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

At least he isnt a scientoligest.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Umm, you mean scientoLOGIst, right?... --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 15:16, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

I mean crazy.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Now ''that''... I can agree on --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 18:26, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

Good man. But what did the rioters want?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Some prat got himself shot and some more prats decided that it was a good excuse to go rioting for no obvious reason --[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 08:04, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== hk 45 ==

Where can You find the new pics of tom cruise hk 45?

Its a USP 45, not a HK45, also it looks like any other USP.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 15:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

== Fanning's pistol ==

Fanning is not carrying a S&W 4516 in this movie. If you notice in the first screenshoot of him as he enters the apartment, the frame is contrasted sharply with the slide and guiderod. It has a duller "gray" color. The frame is not stainless, it is anodized alloy. There are no 3rd gen compact 45 guns made by S&W with allow frames other than the TSW and Recon versions (performance center). Fanning's gun doesn't have a rail or a "tactical" or "recon" billboard on the left side of the slide so that rules those out. The shadow of the first screenshot makes the bore look larger than it is but the second screenshot shows it's true size. That is a 9mm bore. Unless someone has some inside knowledge of this film and this is a specially made alloy framed, non-TSW compact 45, it should be changed to a S&W 3913.--[[User:Luckyluciano|Luckyluciano]] 05:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the gun is alloy framed and a non-TSW compact. It could be a 3913, but then it could also be a single stack non-TSW 4013. This verison of the 4013 is identical to the 4516, but in .40S&W and with an alloy frame. Also, Fanning's gun has a larger "beavertail" than what a 3913 would have.

The beavertail could be indicative of a 4013 but that would really depend on the size of the actor's hands since we don't have a plain view side shot of the gun itself. The other thing to note is that the magazines he carries (as seen when they first investigate Ramon's murder and the cab crime scene) have staggered holes in them. The 4013 magazine holes are in a straight vertical line but the 3913 magazines have staggered holes. That might not mean anything as the could easily have a 4013 as a prop gun and magazines from any other gun on his hip. --[[User:Luckyluciano|Luckyluciano]] 14:57, 16 March 2011 (CDT)

== Officer from near the end of the movie ==

We see the picture of the cop, who is an actual LAPD Officer, holding his issue Beretta, but we can see his thumb layered over his dominant hand. Thats just asking for slidebite. It seems like a poor grip for an actual LAPD officer. -MissySummers-

Talk:National Treasure: Book of Secrets

2011-12-03T01:59:29Z

StarSummers: /* 1911 */

== 1911 ==

The nickel 1911 isn't an A1. It has to long a trigger.

If it is nickle it is not a 1911. Notice the dished out area by the trigger guard an A1 feature. It is obviously a custom gun so why nit pick over a easily replaceable part as a trigger. I have one trigger in each length trying to get the proper feel for me. I don't think mine flops back and forth between A1 and not A1. besides it was built in 2001.

Why does it say that the 1911 is in .38 super on the screenshot? Also it has the flat spring housing instead of the rounded one so it is a custom 1911 and not a straight out 1911 or 1911A1 most likely using a series 80 frame. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 07:46, 2 December 2011 (CST)

Can we be certain that its a .38 Super? It seems like its much more likely its chambered in .45. Although we never get a close up of the muzzle to identify the caliber. Id say its unlikely to be .38.

== Glock 19 with 4" barrel? ==

The main page says one of the British Agents is armed with a Glock 19 with a 4 inch barrel. As far as i know, there hasnt even been a "shortened barrel" Glock 19. Isnt it more likely its a Glock 26 with a grip extension?

Those guns aren't even G19's. The grips and the barrel are both in the sub-compact range, pointing towards being a G26. The barrel is also definitely shorter than 4". --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 08:58, 2 December 2011 (CST)
:The near gun is definitely a Glock 19. You can tell by the fact that the "step" in the frame towards the muzzle is forward from the trigger guard, as opposed to on the Glock 26 where it is in line with it (and it also at a shallower angle). Not 100% about the rear gun though as you can't see it as clearly but think it is a 19 as well. I think the positioning of the rear agent's finger is making the barrel appear shorter than it is. If it was a Glock 26 there would be less frame than that in front of the serial number plate. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:36, 2 December 2011 (CST)

Well, i was trying to figure out what exactly the caption on the picture was trying to say. It seemed like nonsense to me. Im pretty sure the Glock 19 has a 4 inch barrel to begin with. -MissySummers-

Talk:National Treasure: Book of Secrets

2011-12-03T01:55:12Z

StarSummers: /* Glock 19 with 4" barrel? */

Talk:National Treasure: Book of Secrets

2011-12-02T04:35:54Z

StarSummers: /* Glock 19 with 4" barrel? */ new section

The nickel 1911 isn't an A1. It has to long a trigger.

If it is nickle it is not a 1911. Notice the dished out area by the trigger guard an A1 feature. It is obviously a custom gun so why nit pick over a easily replaceable part as a trigger. I have one trigger in each length trying to get the proper feel for me. I don't think mine flops back and forth between A1 and not A1. besides it was built in 2001.

== Glock 19 with 4" barrel? ==

The main page says one of the British Agents is armed with a Glock 19 with a 4 inch barrel. As far as i know, there hasnt even been a "shortened barrel" Glock 19. Isnt it more likely its a Glock 26 with a grip extension?

Talk:Brooklyn's Finest

2011-11-25T18:27:48Z

StarSummers: /* Eddie Dugan's Model 10 */ new section

For fucks's sake, people! SPOILERS TO A MINIMUM!! '''''It's in the rules!!!'''''--[[User:Spikemonkey|Spikemonkey]] 06:55, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

And who ever you are IP 75.18.203.92, learn to make a proper entry before you do so. I'm not cleaning up your mess for you.--[[User:Spikemonkey|Spikemonkey]] 06:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

What spoilers?

== No PNG's, please! ==

Please no PNG's for screenshots! Upload your screenshots as JPG's only! Also, take a look at how others put their screenshots on this page. Do NOT hyperlink! --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

== Missing Images ==

Anyone know what's with the two missing Model 10 pics? - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 04:59, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

== Eddie Dugan's Model 10 ==

I thought it was worth mentioning in the information section that since Eddie started service with the Model 10, he was "grandfathered" and allowed to carry his Revolver past the 1994 changeover to Semi-Autos. Just a thought though, didnt want to add it without permission. -MissySummers-

Talk:Black Hawk Down

2011-11-25T01:37:27Z

StarSummers: /* The Hand */

== Hoot's "M4" ==
I think the article should be amended to only mention the weapon seen on Hoot's person when he's confronted by Capt. Steele during chow time. The weapon he's holding in the screengrab of him being picked up by Wolcott and the Delta guys is the same M727 he uses in the rest of the film. --[[Special:Contributions/131.216.48.250|131.216.48.250]] 16:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the carbine Sanderson handed him had the knobs signifying a detachable carry handle. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::Pretty damn sure. The front corner of that carry handle in the screencaps is too thin to be from an M4's carry handle. Definitely the mark of an A2 upper's carry handle as seen on M727s--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

== This probably isn't very important, but... ==
I went through and corrected the abbreviated ranks. Most of them were in Marine Corps form as opposed to Army form (ex., SSgt vs SSG). Like I said, probably not worth mentioning, but it's a little detail that was bugging me. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey, correctness is a virtue. Good on you for doing it. [[User:Cozmo|Cozmo]] 01:39, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

== Weapon used by delta force ==

M4 was issued in 1994 before the battle which took place in 1993 ...the weapon seen in the movie and used by Delta operators was CAR-15

: If you'll look at the upper reciever and carry handle/rear-sight assembly, you'll see they match the [[M16 rifle series#M16A2 Rifle|M16A2]]-style of the early-model M4 carbine as shown in the picture above the screenshots. The CAR-15 (also known as the [[M16 rifle series#Colt Commando Carbine|Colt Commando]]) used the recievers and carry handle/rear sight assembly of the [[M16 rifle series#M16A1 Rifle|M16A1]]. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, the stock is wrong for the CAR15...its an M4
:How is the stock "wrong"? And no M4 has the flash suppressor of the Car-15 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Isn't it more likely that Randy Shughart was actually carrying a Springfield M21 rather than the M14?
:No, he was carrying a M14 during the actual battle and it is in his Medal of Honor citation. So its definitely a M14.
::Do you happen to have a link to his MoH citation? The book accounted that Shughart used an M21. --''[[User:Blemo|Blemo]] 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
:::To Blemo - I've got the book in my lap. Page 208, and I quote, "They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip." Right there in black and white. --[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
::::Ah yes, I remember that passage. Thanks for the quote. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE'''''

:Your point about the issue date of the M4 flies in the face of the logic that "IT'S A MOVIE".-protoAuthor 01:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
:Your point about "It's a movie" is in the face of the logic that we shouldn't use our brains and common sense. It's like watching a 1920s movie and seeing someone riding into a scene with a 1970 Mustang. Would you use the "It's a movie" logic there? What about a WWII movie and you see an F-18 shooting sidewinders at a Japanese Zero? The point of this site is so that we do point of the little details. It's like in IMDB where it points out which movie a certain actor has been in and what his role is. The same here on this side except you replace "Actor" with "pick a gun". Accuracy is the whole point. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]
:My point was, movies don't get things 100% correct.-protoAuthor 03:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

:Sometimes. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mistake? ==
There's a scene in the movie (1:37:53) where Yurek, Nelson and Twombly are about to rejoin the other Rangers at the Black Hawk crash site. While Yurek is on the radio to Eversmann (Josh Hartnett's character) he grabs a mag out of a Type 47 that a dead Somali soldier is still holding. Since the Rangers are all carrying 5.56 NATO M4A2s and FN Minimis, what would be the point of grabbing a 7.62mm mag? Seems like an odd oversight considering the camera kinda focuses on him taking the mag, and they've worked quite hard to maintain accuracy and detail in the film. Any ideas? Am I missing something? [[User:DamageW|DamageW]] 06:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:What the hell is a Type 47?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 15:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::i dont know, but they did that so the weapon was useless for someone to pick up and use. He probaly just ditched it later. -[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]
:::He's talking about an AK-47, but Type 47 definately isn't the right term. I always assumed he took it as a memento or something, because anyone can reload a weapon even if the magazine is removed. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::Actually, he grabs the mag because he's carrying an M60, and he probably figured he may be able to use the ammo later. Also, many SF types are known to, in extreme need, use the local weapons, and he may also have been preparing for that eventuality. [[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Taking AK rounds for an M60? the M60 fires 7.62x51 rounds, while the AK fires 7.62x39, plus you'd need to have the rounds already on a belt to be fired by an M60. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::I think that what Yurek was trying to do was deny the enemy ammunition should they pick up the AK. The Bowden's book accounted that many Somalis that were killed would have others reuse the same weapon. They briefly showed that when Busch was making his last stand by the downed chopper. Also, he may have kept it as a souvenir. It's not everyday you'll find a loaded AK magazine that had the potential to kill you. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Actually, I was suggesting that he was picking up the mag out of fear that at some point, he would need to resort to using an Ak, or that he would have the ammo if someone else had already been forced to pick up a local weapon. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
----
Also, What the motherfuck is an M4A2?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:The motherfuck that is an M4A2 is basically an M4 produced by another company such as Bushmaster Firearms. It's just another "M4gery". Also, Google is everyone's friend and it wouldn't hurt to ask it. ;) --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::I'd like to think he kept it as a souvenir, although the actual reason was whenever a member of militia was killed they were extremely dedicated to retrieving the body and the firearm, so removing the magazine would have made it useless, although picking up the the weapon and smashing it to pieces would probably have worked better[[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 14:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Smashing the weapon would have been noisy and they were trying to be quiet at that point IIRC.
::::fair point but i was thinking more like removing the driver spring, and its probably just that it would have made one less magazine for the somalians to use
I think the reason is that the enemy has 30 rounds less against the rangers. It's like in 'Saving Privat Ryan': the rescue team left Steamboat Willy alive; so he could kill Captain Miller. A wise decision of Yurek, I think

::::::Those of you who were saying he was denying the enemy are correct. You'll notice that he doesn't pocket the magazine. He tosses it away. He didn't field strip it because he likely didn't know how. So the easiest thing to do would be to unload it and throw the magazine away. I was in the military and we were trained to be observant and look for things that would compromise security (like unsecured enemy weapons). One thing you never do is use ammo you find lying around on the street, and in any case, M14Fanboy was right in that the calibers of the US weapons were totally incompatible with the Soviet rounds. Smashing the rifle would have taken time and energy that needed to be spent elsewhere. Besides, it's a rifle...not an airsoft gun. Have you ever tried to smash a real AK? There's a reason it's been in service for so many years... [[User:Cozmo|Cozmo]] 01:52, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

I noticed another mistake. During the scene where Gordon and Shughart are holding off the Somalis at the crash sight there's a quick moment when Shughart is seen using an M16A2 rifle instead of his M14 rifle. And in the very next scene and all following he's back to using the M14. [[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]

::::: I believe it was because he was firing his M14 until it ran out of ammo, and then using a helo crew member's M16 before retreating to reload both rifles.:::

:::- Yes, that's the case. Gordon is also seen dropping his CAR-15 when it's empty and using his 1911. Later, when Shughart is killed, he fires the M14 'til it's empty, then switching to his 1911, and when that is empty, using an MP5 from the chopper. Hell, they're being overwhelmed, and it is quicker to pick up and and shoot another weapon that is ready than reload the present one. They were pretty much using whatever they could trying their damndest to fend an army off, I would think that was obvious. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mike Durant's Book ==
In Mike Durant's book "The Night Stalkers" he quoted a few weapons he was using in the real life in the "Mog". I remember him talking about his MP5 not to metion he called it a "german piece of crap" for jamming. He also said Randy's Commando was on burst-fire 3 shots 1 kill. And the mini guns the rescue team could have been using can not run on the Black Hawk's batteries only on pure engine generating turbine power.
:To be fair, Mike Durant also seems to know very little about firearms. Also note that his memory may be jarred by the fact that, you know, he had just suffered a fucking HELICOPTER CRASH. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
::Actually, helicopter pilots have to be trained with certain firearms in order to survive in the event of a crash. Durant at least knew how to clear the jam on the 9mm submachine gun. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::160th SOAR aircrews, being a part of ASOC are trained not only in their specific role in the aircraft, but also on how to continue with the mission at hand along with their "customers." Hence, they're well-familiarized with fighting with the weapons carried on board with them (in the case of what was aboard Super-64, MP5s for the pilots, M16s for the crewchiefs and M9s carried by all of them).
:::What baffles me is how his MP5 kept jamming (in the book atleast). I know they were in the desert, but that MP5 had been stashed inside a helicopter, so it wouldn't be all dusty and full of sand. Maybe it is a German piece of crap then [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it was dusty inside of the chopper. Flying around in a helicopter with the rotor wash sending dust, smoke, and sand into and around the cabin won't help the MP5 from jamming, either. Pilots don't normally clean their emergency back-up weapons as they're supposed to. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Helicopter crews don't regularly use their weapons and so may not be as maintenance-minded as a Ranger or Delta. That could be one reason it kept jamming. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I did read Mike Durant's book and would like to point out he referred to Randy's weapon as a High-Tech rifle. as we all no, it was a vietnam era M14. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 21:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

:I just stared reading Durant's "In the Company of Heroes" before he called it a "German piece of crap", he said the MP5 had shot fine at the range but he probably had neglected to clean it. It was after Shughart gave him Gordon's CAR-15 which didn't jam and was far more effective despite only having half a mag left he thought of the MP5 as a piece of shit. He also had an M9 that he never drew, which he said probably saved his life since he wasn't seen as a threat. While Shughart's M14 isn't really a "High-Tech rifle" it was a lot better than a bolt-gun in the situation he was in. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 18:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

== The Hand ==
Does anyone know why that Ranger took the dead Delta Force member's hand?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:Probably to send it home with the rest of the body-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 16:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)
::I figured that too. But it's kind of creepy going around carrying an dead man's severed hand in your pocket. What about the smell? However, if i died in combat, i would like if my body went home and i had an funeral.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:::In the book, Othic took the hand that he had found and put it in his pocket to return it to the Delta operator that was blown in half. He had placed it with his body after he died, but strangely the movie did not show that, and made it seem like Othic kept the hand. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::::It wasn't the Delta Operator's hand. The shots of MSGTTim "Griz" Martin after being hit by the RPG show his hand still intact. More likely it belonged to one of the other soldiers aboard the truck that got hit. MSGT Martin was shipped off to Germany IIRC where he succumbed to his wounds shortly after.
:I bet it started to smell after a while-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I was always under the assumption that it was taken to be put to rest with the rest of the body. Never leave a soldier behind.
That all said, i was always told by SF soldier i knew that they were trained to even go as far as to scoop up vomit they might have left to not leave behind any traces of themselves. -MissySummers-

==Flashlight Attachment Help==
[[Image:BHD Commando Flashlight.jpg|thumb|none|600px|What is this type of flashlight attachment called?]]
''What is the technical term for the flashlight to be attached to the '''barrel''' of the AR-15 series? It seems to be used only when there are handguards in place of the RIS railing. Sergeants Hoot, Busch, Sanderson, Gordon, and a couple other Deltas used the same attachment.'' --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 01:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:Before R.I.S. was introduced, I used to see a whole bunch of different flashlight attachments just like that one in the Blue Press. Some of them were even advertised as able to work on multiple types of weapons in the same caliber (i.e. AR-15s and Mini-14s). There were many different brands, so we can't be 100% sure what this movie's armorers used. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

::Oh, thanks, but I didn't mean what brands the movie used. I meant, what the generic term for these types of attachments that connect the flashlight to the barrel are called. I'm thinking about purchasing one for an AR-15 platform without the RIS. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 03:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::It's a barrel mount for a flashlight, that specific one was made by Surefire.

:::: Like the above said, It's a barrel mounted flashlight, made by Surefire. I actually managed to buy one of them that had been used in the Operation Gothic Serpent theater. These are still a good alternative to adding the weight of a rail to your firearm. I believe the flashlight is a model 600 or something similar.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==M4 in 1994?==
Question about the M4 not being period correct. If the events took place in September 1993 and the M4 went into service sometime in 1994, isn't possible that members of an elite group like Delta Force could have gotten their hands on a couple?

:I'd say it's plausible that Delta could have been field-testing a few XM4s that day. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

::In today's case, some special units are using the HK416 in the field. It likely that this was also the case with the M4 in 1993. That, or the armorers to the film got lazy and decided to throw in a few M4's for the M4 fans. Unlikely, but movies will do this. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:Well it isn't completely out there that at the time US special forces can get their hands on some experimental weapons and field test them. But I think for this movie, they just ran out of Car-15s to give to the Delta actors.[[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)he

The m4 was used in service since 1997 it is not possible for an m4 to be used.the delta operators may have used a xm117e2.

:Just because it didn't go into service until 94 or 97 doesn't mean D-boys didn't have a hold of them. There could well have been a prototype (or many test models) sent out with D-boys to see if the rifle performed to what was expected.
More than likely just an error. The simplest explanation is usually correct (Occam's Razor) BA
More likely than not the M4 in the film is simply an anachronism due to a shortage of Colt Commandos. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 02:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

'''Don't forget about the 10th Mountain and the U.N Soldiers. Whoever created this page missed them completly and they had alot of firearms. Whats omore is i can't for some reason edit the page. the autheor needs to fix this right away'''

::I have explained elsewhere that the Colt Model 727 carbine, which LOOKS just like an early M4 (but has a semi/full-auto trigger group, rather than semi/burst as on the Model 777, AKA the earliest M4) was introduced in the late-1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 05:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

:::The 727 has a fixed carry handle, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

::::So did the Model 777, which is the first gun that was ever adopted by the U.S. military as the "M4". The 727 and 777 are the same gun aside from their trigger groups. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::I'm fairly certain this convo is referring to the later M4 with detachable carry handle. That's why I mentioned the 727 having an A2 upper. ;) [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...

== Shughart and the M14/M16 switch ==
Does anyone know if Shughart briefly using an M16A2 while defending Durant's crash site is intentional or a mistake? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

:intentional, in the book moments beforehand hed asked durant where the spare weapons were kept aboard the black hawk, and for some reason this scene was omitted from the film. Shughart had ran dry with his 7.62 M14 and so couldnt have used the 5.56 from the M16 mags. :)

::Yeah, Shughart asked if there were any spare rifles or radios ''after'' Gordon got shot. This caused Durant to realize that Gordon may have been hit and that they were stranded on their own. However, the book didn't mention Shughart ''actually'' using the M16. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, good point, but i dont get why brad hallings didnt join them? he could have done so much more on the ground than on the black hawk, especially since he had his leg blown off up there aswell. oh and btw, im a newcomer, how do i tag comments with my name at the end?
:By putting four ~ at the end of every message.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thanks :) [[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 00:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe the reason why Halling didn’t insert with the Shughart and Gordon was because by the time the team was given the go-ahead to insert, Halling had taken control of the minigun due to a member of the helicopter crew being injured.--[[User:Mauser|Mauser]] 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

i dont know if he was actually using it, but in the movie version i think were supposed to think he took from a crew chief (since they carried an m16a2

the guy must have to taken the m16 from one of the blackhawk passengers and the blackhawks do carry spare weapons on board. (actual assassin)

Im sure most people so dedicated to this site probably noticed this but ill say it anyway. (**SPOILER**) ok right as MSsgt. Gordon is shot in the head and Shughart checks him it flashes over to Durant, and sure enough if you look you'll notice Gordon's CAR-15 on his lap. moments later Shughart runs over to Durant hands him the CAR-15 and says "Gordy's gone man, i'll be outside...Goodluck." just pointing it out. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

== Change made to 1911 article/picture ==

Not sure where IMDB gets its info from, but Kim Coates plays Master Sergeant Tim 'Griz' Martin, the unfortunate Delta operator who was blown in half by the RPG when the convoy is attempting to extract. He is not the Delta operator seen using the 1911 at the firing range and the picture and article have been edited for correction.

--[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

All the Delta Force members' names were changed for the film except for Busch, Shughart and Gordon. "Wex" is the name credited to Kim Coates in the end credits. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

::Which is funny, because when Griz is drawing in the barracks and Busch walks up behind him, he calls him "Griz." But not "all" Delta had their names changed. Norm Hooten was really there, but for the movie they combined him with John Macejunas. [[User:Cozmo|Cozmo]] 02:04, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

Anybody else notice that when Wex is firing his 1911, he's walking down the range towards the targets while people behind him are still firing? seems kind of unsafe.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 19:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

-- In a deleted scene, it is shown that Eversman calls cease fire on the range in response to him moving into the line of fire, and just responding to such percieved recklessness by simply muttering "Fuckin' Delta..."--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 22:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

on topic of 1911s does anyone know what kind of 1911s they really used? for example i find it hard to believe they would be using normal 1911s when the MK.IVs were out

-- They were regular M1911A1s as it is cheaper for the armorers to use GI style pistols instead of procuring brand new weapons or paying a pistolsmith for costly modifications on movie props that could later be used in other films. In reality, Delta operators would take their issued 1911s (which were often relics found in the supply system) and have them done by some of the best pistolsmiths they could find to do the work (or do the work in-house when at all possible). Some of that talent rubbed off on the operators themselves; Larry Vickers, a former Delta Operator himself, is one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the business and is one of the go-to guys for Delta's custom 1911s.

I read somewhere that Delta Operators are given an allowance to pay for their 1911 and any customisations they want done to it. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 12:59, 18 September 2011 (CDT)

== Dillon/GE Miniguns ==

The Miniguns during the actual event would have been GE M134s. The Miniguns in the movie were Dillon Aero Miniguns, but not quite M134Ds. They had some of the DA upgrades on them though. That's from the commentary and some interviews online with Dillon Aero. I remember it being mentioned in one of the special features that the Dillon guns in the movie could have been fired off the Black Hawk's batteries, but the older GE ones in the real incident would have been unuseable at the crash site.

== 870 Remington Shotgun. ==

Not sure if this is worth noting, but in real life, the operator on who SGT. Sanderson was based, Paul Howe, had his shotgun rigged under his CAR-15 in a "Masterkey" configuration. Also, it can be seen being used in the directors cut to breach a door.

== Rescue Heli Star 41 ==

The AH-6, that inbounds to Wolcott's crash site (Star 41), has miniguns and rocket pods. The helicopter that is finally landing at the chrashed Black Hawk hasn't any weapons onboard, so probably a MH-6.
:Continuity error most likely. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

== Flashlights ==
I watched the movie, and I was wondering, if Delta force had flashlights on their M733 and M727's, why didnt they use them? I could see that they would want to keep stealth in night, but if they're firing at the enemy, the muzzle flash would show their position anyway.

:Actors probably forgot or were never told [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Flashlights are not going to give you enough illumination to shoot at targets across buildings. They're better for room clearing. Besides you wouldn't use them if you have NOD's. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)v
:Not to mention a flashlight beam in that environment would scream, "here I am, shoot me!" [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

does anyone no how they would have mounted the tac-lights back then? like now-a-days we have RIS/Picatanny rails. then they would mod it to the barrel. how would they do that if they have a shotgun under the barrel? Larry Vickers mentioned that he hose clamped his to the bottom of the barrel. but he didnt have a masterkey. any suggestions? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 15:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hose clamped it to the side or top of the barrel? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Larry had his hose-clamped to the bottom. he used his in Panama (acid Gambit) i was surprised at how resoursefull they were. he also took some cardboard and put them inbetween Mags for a quick reload. and the aimpoint on his gun looked ancient. [[Special:Contributions/71.194.219.9|71.194.219.9]] 22:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

== Possible Error? ==
Anyone notice that the picture of Sanderson firing his M727 during the Mogadishu Mile? It looks like the chamber is clear and the bolt is open. That means the weapon is empty, but in the movie you still hear two more shots before he switches to his sidearm. Is it just the angle, or is it just an error in continuity?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a continuity error, a continuity error would be when one seen a guy has a 1911 and the next he suddenly has a Beretta M9. I can't say for I don't remember this. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 16:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

== Actor in the Specials ==

Do we see this actor in Delta costume in the movie often? Because all the behind the scenes shot is this guy and I don't recognize him. Is he an extra that is like way in the back of the other guys? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

What guy?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This guy
[[Image:BHD2Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor aims Durant's MP5 in movie armory. Note the other weapons behind him.]]
[[Image:BHD1Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor in Delta clothes shows M16A2 in the movie armory.]]
[[Image:DHD3Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta actor shows vehicle-mounted M60s.]]

That's Jeremy Piven, nowadays best known for playing Ari Gold on HBO's Entourage. Wikipedia says he played CFO Clifton Wolcott.

:I do not think it Piven. In the film he plays a pilot role and his hair is black.
http://files.haiguinet.com/flashupload/UploadedFiles/1252005569_159Jeremy_Piven.jpg
http://emsworth.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/jeremy-piven-in-black-hawk-down-2.jpg
When I put the photos on the page, before to name him "delta actor", I looked for the name of this guy in the entire cast. Unsuccessfully. I think it is a stunt.--[[User:Charly Driver|Charly Driver]] 17:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Definitely not Piven. Maybe he's a stand-in or something. [[User:Cozmo|Cozmo]] 02:06, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

== Seriously ==
[[Image:BHD 015.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta Force SFC Sanderson ([[William Fichtner]]) fires his M1911A1 during the "Mogadishu Mile". It seems unlikely a well trained operator would wear his flight gloves like shown.]]
Seriously? A well trained operator wouldnt wear his gloves like that? This mall-ninja crap needs to stop. Theres no special way to wear flight gloves, you put the goddamn things on and wear 'em. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
:Actually, special forces operators of that era often wore flight gloves, just like that. Fun fact. Flight gloves are made for use by individuals who fly planes; they need a glove that will keep their hands a bit warmer than they normally will be, but will still allow them to feel the tactile sensation of the various knobs and switches and provide the nimbleness that the human hand gives us. The solution? Flight gloves. They are the precursors to the gloves we see in use by military units now; the Oakley tacticool gloves (fun fact: Oakley started out making motorcycle gloves) or the Blackhawk gloves and what have you. I'm really loving these mall-ninjas popping up thinking they know about shooting or special forces work. I can think of a few damn good reasons off the top of my hand to never, ever take gloves off in a combat situation, personally, and a well-fitted pair of gloves will be just like a second skin.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 01:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I believe the comment means it isn't likely he'd wear them while shooting - Full-finger gloves can be obstructive/restrictive when it comes to finger movement, which isn't exactly a good thing when you need to make accurate shots. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 01:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

::Flight gloves, as I just fucking explained, are not restrictive or obstructive in the slightest.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

:::- ''Uh, I had replied below I didn't know about these gloves specifically, which you seem to have failed to notice. Just as you also seem to have failed to notice that all these comments you posted this slightly irritable and unnecessary response in-between were all posted '''days ago'''. It might help if you thoroughly read the comments and check the dates next time.'' [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 15:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Honestly how would anyone here really know....are any of you "operators"?? -and if you say yes I'm going to say that your lying.....I'm going to delete that quip about his gloves in the caption, it's not hard to shoot with gloves on, especially flyers gloves. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
:Thank you, it just bugs the living shit outta me when armchair commandos think they know operator/tactical/omfgdelta stuff. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
::- Well, I'm indeed no 'operator', but I don't have to be one to know that it is hard to shoot with some gloves, especially if you're making distance shots. But I'm not familiar with flight gloves specifically, so I guess they're no trouble, I don't know. In any case, it just seemed to me the context of Winn's comment was that he was saying that it was stating merely that the gloves need to be worn some special way (and Winns right - they're gloves, what special way is there), but that's the problem with text sometimes. Anyway, not trying to make a valid claim, just an opinion. I can't speak for whoever made original remark, though. Either way, I never gave that comment much thought myself. I'm personally more peeved about quips on peoples (actors) stances myself. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Flight gloves are a very thin layer of Nomex with a Clarino palm and finger overlaid. These are very light, wick sweat, and give you tactile feeling and the ability to perform tasks as though you were bare handed. They are maybe a few mm thick on the palms, and do not affect in any way your shooting ability or accuracy, even whilst firing an M249, which is notorious for running away due to gloves getting stuck and holding the trigger back.

:::I was in the Army for 9 years, and I wore flight gloves all the time during exercises. I never had a problem with them whatsoever. I was a SAW gunner as well. Whoever posted that caption about trained operators not wearing gloves is an idiot. [[User:Cozmo|Cozmo]] 02:14, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

==Discussion about the bullets, or something==
- Something I always found a bit funny about that particular scene - Sanderson misses the two targets with his 727 carbine (firing several shots), yet hits them both with one .45 shot each (or actually, maybe one was hit twice, and the other once). Heh. But of course, I'd imagine some people can actually be better with a handgun than a rifle in some instances. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

I haven't seen the movie in a few months, but if I remember correctly he had actually hit the targets with his rifle, but the rounds went completely through and didn't kill the targets. So he used his .45 to actually kill them. There is a part in the book where it is mentioned that they had been issued "green tip" rounds (armor piercing/ anti personnel 5.56 ammo with a steel penetrator tip), and another part that talked about the rounds lack of effectiveness against the drugged up Somalis. One guy unloaded a belt from his SAW into a couple Somalis and they kept coming at them b/c the rounds just went right through and didn't do any major (fight stopping) damage. Another reason why they talk about how Randy Shughart was a smart SOB for using a 7.62 M14 and normal ammo. As for the gloves... Flight gloves have been used for years by ground personnel because they are thin enough to still be able to feel things with your hands, but they are still something to protect against scrapes, burns, dirt, etc.. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No argument here Ranger. but i would also like to point out in the book Mark also mentions that they(the rangers) fired SAW and believe it or not M-60 ammunition, that would happen to be the same M-60 that carries the heavy hitting 7.62mm however that guy was probably high as a kite anyways so idont think it would have made much of a difference. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

:- That's all fascinating, except in the movie, Sanderson (Fichtner) just ''missed them''. I was remarking on how the movie showed him ''missing'' two almost perfectly still targets with the 727 carbine and hitting them with the .45. That's all. Interesting tidbit about the ammo though. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

Well, the point about RS and his M14 was what the book said. It was not so much the size of the bullet, but whether or not it was AP ammo (super hard bullet at very high velocity). An AP round from a 5.56 to the heart will create a very small hole, and if the person who is shot is high on drugs then they are probably not even going to notice it until they finally keel over (which will probably take a while). At the same time a FMJ from a .45 while it still probably wont blow the heart to kingdom come, will make a large enough hole that it will cause bleed out to happen faster (hopefully fast enough). Then again at close range any 5.56 and even 7.62 ammo isnt going to be as effective as a .45 round b/c of the rifle round's high velocities compared to the .45s low velocity. When faced with an unarmored threat below about 50 yards, a pistol round (be it .45, 9mm, .40, etc) is going to be much more effective (unless it is something like the 5.7 round, which has no immediate stopping power unless a CNS or head shot is attained). Long post short: will a 5.56 or 7.62 to the heart kill someone at close range? Most likely yes. Will it do it quick enough to stop an attacker from killing/ wounding you or your allies? Maybe. If he missed them, then it was probably just to add suspense or a "weapon switch to show he is an elite operator" shot to the scene.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 00:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

um this is extremely off topic like usual but id just like for someone to explain the purpose of using a 5.56 by a Counter-Terrorist Unit. tell me if im missing something but when their clearing rooms A.) the round wont immediatly kill a combatant when you wont him to die. and 2. say its an assault on multiple rooms at once and boom you miss your target (or it just passes through him) and boom goes through the wall like the round is meant to and bam! clips a friendly or even worse a hostage. explain the logic to me please. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 00:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, logistics. If they are expecting to be 100% in a building they will use SMGs, Shotguns, etc. But if they have an expectation that being in a building is only going to be 10-25% of the mission they will usually carry rifles. The main problem with the mission portrayed in BHD is that the brass expected to have to combat (lightly) armored vehicles, so they issued AP rounds. Now days the AP rounds are for some odd reason pretty much 90% of what the US Army issues. Army Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta, etc. use a type of semi-expanding bullet, as does the Marine Corps.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 01:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There are other reasons as well. It's a fairly accurate rifle round, which, when in situations that will require shooting further than 50-100 meters, is necessary to have. It's a relatively light round, and most people can easily carry a few mags of 5.56 without feeling it too much. As far as stopping power goes, in barrels that don't over-stabilize the round, the 5.56 will fragment (not the AP round, obviously), slowing itself in the body and thus penetration becomes less of an issue. When you consider that most SF types use expanding bullets, this nearly negates the issue. There's a reason that most countries use the 5.56 round or something similar.
As far as the issuance of AP rounds in a war that clearly didn't need them, I've heard two sides of the argument. I've heard that, as Ranger01 said, they were issued because they thought they may run into light vehicles (although they brought along plenty of LAWs to deal with that). But what I heard from an individual who was there was that the men believed it was because Clinton believed that rounds that expanded would A) not make good headlines and B) violate some convention (I believe the Geneva convention).--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Geneva convention forbids hollow point ammo in the military. The Police of the nation is a different subject. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:You're thinking of the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 03:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was the GC or HC and didn't really care to look it up at the moment.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Hague banned all use of ammunition that easily expands or flattens in a human target. I have no exact idea of what round is being used or how it gets around the HC, I only know that when asked about the effectiveness of 5.56 ammunition, a few SF guys made mention that have been issued a new "expanding" round. I have also heard that Marines are now being issued an expanding type round. It may be that since we are not actually fighting an official "military force" that the HC and GC do not apply. Also you must remember that the use of .50 cal against personnel is banned too, how often do you think that is observed?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not saying we follow either conventions to a T in every war, I'm just echoing what I heard from a man who was there. A lot of people who lived through the battle of mogadishu came away with the feeling that Bill Clinton cared more about how headlines would look than he did about the safety of our soldiers. As for HC and GC not applying, I agree that they really don't apply to A) organizations that are not militaries but instead ragtag terrorist groups and B) hail from nations that didn't exist at the time of the convention and never signed a similar document. It's the same argument that was applied for the waterboarding of captured terrorists; apparently, they apply some standards to those who didn't sign, but not others. Personally, I think that terrorist groups and undeveloped countries where they never signed the conventions shouldn't get the protection of them, and we really need to invest into expanding ammunitions for everyone; AP doesn't make sense for unarmored targets.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The question about observing the laws was rhetorical in nature. But I agree wholeheartedly about what you say pertaining to the HC and GC applying to people who did not sign it. Its like bringing pirates and terrorists into the US to give them civilian trials. People say they should get military trials... When according to the GC (that people are so happy to apply to the situation) pirates and terrorists are not able to receive either. We selectively apply laws to make us look good internationally, when in reality it costs money, and even worse lives of US citizens and military forces.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 12:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances full metal jacket .556 is an ideal round. When fighting a traditional battle, against an enemy that follows the rules of war, it is far better to wound the enemy than kill him. Gunner313

We haven't fought a conventional war that lasted any period of time since Korea (and you could even say WWII, since Korea was less than conventional). Also with the way the enemy works now, any intel we can gather from enemy combatants will likely be useless (if it ever was useful) by the time it gets to the guys on the ground. Also as stated by me, and others before, under 50 yards and especially against an enemy that is drugged up a FMJ is likely not going to down an enemy either by wounding him or killing him. Of course shot placement comes into play heavily, but as cases have proven a COM shot is likely not to drop a determined attacker immediately. Head and extremity shots are also very hard to make, with FMJ pretty much the only way to immediately and most important reliably drop an attacker at close range is a pelvic shot. But now days in Afghanistan most fighting is taking place on the far end if not beyond the 5.56's effective range. Also Gunner313 it is 5.56, not .556, .556mm is a really damn small projectile haha. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 14:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

One could say that the First Gulf War was conventional. we were fighting an organized military(Iraq), i still think they were a bunch of crazy towel heads hellbent on destroying the western world.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Why is it better to wound them? -SasquatchJim.

Because then you can detain them get information from them.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. I apologize; I thought he meant that wounding them was more humane, or something. Although, dead people can't keep shooting at you; wounded ones can. -SasquatchJim

It is better to wound them because it requires the enemy to care for their wounded, they have to be treated, they have to be transported, it is demoralizing to the others to hear someone in terrible pain, so for a short time a wounding shot, takes two people out of the fight. Also the more medical supplies that have to be shipped to the front for the wounded, means less of other items such as ammo, food, fuel, misc... Gunner313

Makes sense to me. Thanks. -SJ

Well in my opinion, I still think it's better to kill the enemy rather than just wound them, that way they don't get patched up and come back later to kill you.

agreed. especially in Somalia when if their not dead their gunna come back and shoot you in the back. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

:- Bah, can't believe my one off-hand comment spawned all this. Heh. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 22:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to add other than that this was really informative. This site is one of the best blind discoveries I've made on the internet. --[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]] 01:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Never Forget==
Sorry to post as anon, but I dont have an account but frequent the site. Just wanted to point out that today is the 17th anniversary of the US intervention in Somalia.

:- Actually the anniversary is for the mission and subsequent battle portrayed in the film. The 'intervention' began as Operation Provide Relief, which started in December 1992. Still, good to point it out. EDIT - I actually just realized that not only is it the anniversary, but the actual day is correct (That is, Oct. 3 was a Sunday, same day as the Oct. 3 in the battle). Again, pretty cool I guess. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The entire day yesterday i thought about it. i decided to watch the movie being Sunday Oct-3. i also found it fit to say a pray for the brave soldiers who lost their lives fighting to help the ungratefull bastards. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Interesting Uniform Note==

Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the 1990's and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new DCU's with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.

[[Image:BHDMinimi-4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|[[Tom Hardy]] wielding an FN Minimi as Spc. Twombly, giving us a good look at his 3-color DCU uniform and 6-color helmet cover]]

[[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mo'alim (Razaaq Adoti) gun ==

What gun have Mo'alim in his shoulder? He don't remove it from the shoulder at any time, but there are two scenes where you can see:

1 When prevents the killing of Duran:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/

2 When the cannon is firing in the area of the first downed helicopter:
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/

are you referring to the AK-74u? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he is referring to the pistol in his shoulder holster under his left arm. Can't make it out though, will have to have a look on my Bluray version when I get a minute, but don't think it can be seen well enough to make it out. --[[User:Commando552|Commando552]] 10:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

i wasn't aware he had a shoulder holster? can you upload a photo?[[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it is a revolver or a pistol:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/
i couldnt see anything on the 2nd picture but the first was definetly a revolver. my guess, and im not expert with revolvers would be a .38 or 357 perhaps a S&W? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== Doc Schmid ==
In the movie PFC Kurt "Doc" Schmid is shown as a Ranger medic but in reality he was Delta Force. It's curious why they chose to depict him as a Ranger and not a Delta operator in the movie.

Maybe they forgot [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

:This is somewhat unrelated, but I found it really funny that Schmid is played by the same actor who later played [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/ Adam]. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==tapeing==
i was just watching this , and i noticed that a majority of the rangers taped the ends of the butt stocks on their rifles . Why is that?-[[User:Simmons 8492|Simmons 8492]]
:I believe that tape was used (not quite sure how) to attach the sling to the butt of the rifle. Tape is also used at the front of the rifle, to attach a loop of para cord around the front sight to the sling. The reason this was done was so that the sling would be attached on the top/side of the weapon, rather than the bottom (where the only fitted sling loops are) to make it more usable in combat. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

i noticed nearly all the mag's have brown tape on them, any reasons for this, or is it just purely cosmetic? [[User:Scarecrow|scarecrow]] 11:32, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

STANAG Magazines are smooth and can be hard to grip on to to reload, especially in a high stress situation like combat. The tape helps you to grip the magazine for a speedy reload, MAGPUL makes sleeves that slide over them now. [[User:Doc345|Doc345]] 3:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

== Nelson's M60 ==

Is is correct to have Nelson carrying the Vietnam Era M60 over the M60E3 or E4? I'm not sure when the E3 or E4 came out.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 03:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:The M60 used in the film is an original spec M60, the same as were actually used by the Rangers in Somalia (As identified by the hand guard and bi-pod attaching at the end of the barrel). Not sure exactly when the E3 was made (started being issues in 1986), but I know there was one in the 1985 film [[Commando]]. Regardless, I don't think it was that widely used, as the lighter weight barrel and other parts made the gun more prone to overheating and malfunction. The rangers actually used a mix of M60s and FN MAGs as shown below:
:[[Image:101120ritchie20pursley8yp.jpg|thumb|500px|none]]
:Also, there has been talk on this page about what the actual weapons used by Delta where, and I cannot speak to this operation in particular, but in most of the photos I have seen of Delta force in Somalia, there are actually armed with M16A2s, normally with a telescopic sight mounted onto the carry handle (example below). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/9607/21820burns20weaver6az.jpg
::Delta operators in Somalia used Colt Model 723 carbines with M4 style barrel, at least watching the few pictures of that time. --[[User:Pz.Abt.100|X-Ray Bravo 6]] 13:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:::Did the Rangers at the time use a black ballistic vest in addition to the woodland RBAs? While searching for M60 photos saw several photos of people in black vests carrying M16A2s with an optic on the handle, also sometimes carrying shotguns and LAWs. Are these likely Rangers rather than Delta then? Also, there are pictures of rangers using colt carbines with the step down M4 type barrels, so I think there was a much wider variety of weapons used than the film shows. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
::::The Rangers only wore Woodland camo RBA (Ranger Body Armor) vests and desert-camo PASGT helmets during the operation (see the "Interesting Uniform Note" section above for info about the desert camo patterns used in the film). Black vests were Delta-issue only. Sort of like present-day spec. ops units using Dragon Skin vests while the main Army uses Interceptor/IOTV vests (though it's not as easy to tell the difference between the modern-day examples by looking at them. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

In the book there was specific mention of a couple of the Rangers being stuck with the Delta "Turtle" Armor because they didn't have enough of the Ranger vests for a while.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 09:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Thanks, that explains photos like the following one then (also, note the Colt carbines with M4 type barrels the Rangers are carrying.)
:[[Image:RangersM4.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

:Also, can anyone shed some light as to what is going on with this SAW:
:[[Image:Saw.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
:First off, isn't this an E2, rather than the E1 as the main article says was used by the Rangers? Also, why does it look like the receiver is made of different metal, and is the sight mount a standard fitting, or something cobbled together? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Another thing the book mentions is that Delta's Armorer played gunsmith for some of the Ranger guys (at least 1 customized SAW is mentioned).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes that is the part I was referring to, although I remember there being more than just a grip added, but its been a while. Also Rangers aren't basic infantry, they too are a part of USASOC. and in a combat zone leeway with weapons (also uniforms, gear, etc) is pretty much at the command's discretion. I believe that they would allow Rangers a bit of leeway with modifying their weapons in certain ways to enhance their effectiveness in a given environment. Spc. Waddell's SAW grip would have been noticed by his command at some point, and either him or the Delta armorer would have had to get permission to modify it, being that it is US Gov property (not to mention the other customized weapons we see in Ranger's hands in photos).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 04:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Just noticing. Why do some people call it an "M4" type barrel? I mean it's a rifle in service before the M4 came out, so shouldn't it NOT be called an M4 barrel [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:48, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

You got me on that one... Probably because most people know the "M203 Step" Barrel as an M4 feature, so it gets genericised as an "M4 Profile Barrel".-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean didn't they have the step down barrel before the M4 came about? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 07:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe so, but it would have only been within a couple years of the M4s debut (the Colt 727 comes to mind). Another reason would be marketing, people will pay more for a milspec carbine that has the "M203 step barrel" so companies market the rifles as having "M4 profile barrels".-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

== Is this the only film to have someone shooting an M16 on burst-fire mode? ==

I would kinda doubt it, but it's the only time I've ever seen it. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 06:37, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

You referring to when Daniel Busch is sliding out from under the Walcott bird? That's the only time I remember. [[User:Thursday|Thursday]] 07:51, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

He's referring to a point where one of the Rangers kills an approaching Somali with a three round burst from his M-16A2. Sgt. Busch is using an M727 and fires quick single shots to kill the miltia approaching the Blackhawk. [[User:DeltaOne|DeltaOne]] 08:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, can remember any burst stuff, I'll re-watch it after work. And I'm very aware Busch had a 727. I wonder why Gary Gordons rifle wasn't on burst in the movie, it was in real life. [[User:Thursday|Thursday]] 15:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

They're referring to the part near the end when the rangers are running out of the city and one of them guns down a woman who picks up a rifle. As for burst mode: most likely the M16 in question was a full auto weapon (as virtually all of them in Hollywood are) and the actor simply fired a couple of short bursts (possibly with some editing done by the sound and special effects teams) to make in appear as though he was using burst mode.--[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 17:39, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

== RPG Shooting ==

I was just looking through the section regarding the RPGs, and noticed something peculiar. Look at the shooter in the first picture. Now look at the guy in the second. Now back at the first. Is it just me, or are the two guys shooting down the two different helicopters from two different places actually the ''exact same guy''? Notice the matching folds in their clothing, and the cloth wrapped around their heads, and their silhouettes. They're all identical. Anyone else see what I'm seeing? [[User:August.allocco|August.allocco]] 18:20, 18 March 2011 (CDT)

== M16A2 ==

I think The M16A2's in the film are actual real ones. the lower reciever is that of an actual A2, and they fire in two modes only, Semi and 3 round burst.--[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

==Question==

Why was Gordon's 727 suppressed? In the book, it says that he was providing sniper cover from the air until he landed to defend the downed Black Hawk, but wouldn't it make more sense to fire unsuppressed. I mean, why would he worry about making too much noise when theres a battle going on? And wouldn't this decrease the muzzle velocity, surely that would make sniping from the air much harder.

==M16A2s==
[[Image:BHDM16A2-2.jpg|thumb|none|601px|]]
It seems that all of the so-called "M16A2s" have forward assists and are probably M16A1s with M16A2 handguards or mocked up to resemble an M16A2. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 10:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

Not to sound disrespectful but what the hell are you talking about? The M16 in that screenshot clearly has the A2 sights and the A2s have forward assists as well. They are not A1s with A2 handguards because of the A2 sights. They could possibly have A1 lowers to make them fully automatic as opposed to firing 3 round bursts like the A2 does. But externally they are definitely an M16A2. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
:Makes sense as MPM2008's images of the M16A2 are M16A2s with A1 lower receivers as one user pointed out, which caused some confusion for me when I started learning about the M16A2. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 14:55, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
:: The point is those could actually be real deal M16A2s as they fire semi auto in every shot apart from at the end where one Ranger fires what looks like a 3 round burst anyway. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 12:40, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
Firstly M16A2s have forward assists, so there is no reason that having the FA would make it an A1. Secondly, the guns have brass deflectors (triangular protrusion behind the ejection port) which A2s have and A1s don't. Thirdly these guns have the more complicated adjustable rear sights of A2s. The guns in this film do use M16A1 pattern lower receivers, as noted by the lack of reinforcement around the takedown pins, but I don't think they are actually Colt lowers as the M16A1 type lowers didn't have the fire selector markings stamped on the right side of the gun. Also, MPM2008's image of an M16A2 is correct, it is the M16A1 images which have the wrong lower receiver (not a standard Colt lower as it has the front reinforcement of an A2, but like the A1 lacks the rear reinforcement and right side fire selector stampings). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:07, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
::Hold on. Upon seeing this picture, I started wondering why some of the Army or Special Forces personnel will have their rifle stock and or end of magazine taped with different colours? Is it just a habit or to serve other purposes?
:::The tape on the magazine is to make it easier to grip, since STANAG magazines are fairly smooth; I guess it's the same theory with the stock. Tape can also be used to mark magazines for easier recognition of special loads (say, a tracer-heavy magazine for marking targets). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:29, 2 November 2011 (CDT)
::::I think the tape on the stock is actually something to do with the way the sling is attached on to the rifle. They don't seem to be using the sling loop at the bottom of the stock, instead I think it is just attached to paracord wrapped around the stock and held in place with the tape. The main reasons I have seen for wrapping tape around the bottom of a magazine was to hold a loop of paracord in place to make it easier to get the magazine out of a webbing pouch (the pre Magpul solution) or for marking magazine loads as Evil Tim said. This is not the case here so I suppose it must be for grip, but seems odd that the tape is around the middle of the magazine rather than the bottom, where the the magazine would be held to get it out of a pouch. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:52, 2 November 2011 (CDT)
:::::Sorry, but when do they fire the guns on full auto? I saw the movie not too long ago and i only saw them fireing on semi and 3 round burst. I never saw a full auto one. --[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]
::::::Right towards the end of the film one of the Rangers fires two quick bursts. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:51, 2 November 2011 (CDT)
:::::::I'm just watching the movie to look out for burst/auto, but jsut noticed something else. Can't screencap blurays, but at 50 minuted in as Eversmann is watching the first blackhawk go down you see the butt of his rifle, showing that it is from an A1 rifle. Also, at 40:30 when Hoot is pushing gown the heads of the prisoners as they are captured, the Delta behind him has a CAR-15 with 10" barrel, no forward assist or brass deflector, and possibly a partial fence lower (out of focus and hard to tell), making it an XM177, also called GAU-5/A. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:22, 2 November 2011 (CDT)
:::::::: ok, but Cool-breeze, you just said he fired two quick BURSTS. Not a full auto drag. I just rewatched that scene and he fired two quick THREE round bursts.--[[UserGunner5|Gunner5]]
:::::::::Yeah but the likelihood that it is an M16A2 with an A2 lower is very remote as pretty much every motion picture M16A2 I've seen fires full auto at some point. The only way to find out if it has a burst lower is if there is a decent screen grab so we can read the markings on the receiver. I think Black Hawk Down is the only film I've seen an A2 not firing full auto if it's not firing on semi. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 19:46, 2 November 2011 (CDT)
::::::::::The guy fires 2 bursts, the second of which sound like it might have been 4, but it is off-screen so that proves nothing. These rifles have A1 lowers which would suggest that they are full auto. However in the screencap above, the third position (although hard to read) looks more like burst than auto. Swinging it back the other way though, A1 receivers shouldn't have selector markings on this side, so it is either a non Colt lower so could be burst or auto, or it has been engraved by the armourer to replicate an A2 so wouldn't necessarily be correct. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 20:00, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Talk:NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service

2011-11-21T04:59:38Z

StarSummers: /* McGee is left-handed */

==Title change==
Is there any chance this page's title can be changed back to NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service? It hasn't been called Navy NCIS in years. [[User: Ben41|Ben41]]

Am I the only one who thinks this article is arranged in a very confusing manner? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 19:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:Hold up... -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

:Better? -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Much. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

I did some cleaning up, but this page still needs a LOT of work. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC

Did anyone see the gun stash in the Season 7 episode "Power Down"? There's an MP7, G36, UMP, P90, M16A2, MP5 and many other guns.```

It's looking very much better. This is the only article I've seen on here arranged in such an extremely sloppy manner that it was when I posted my first comment above. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

the rifle gibbs used in the helicopter shot , was a winchester 73 with a vineer sight. you were right it was not a henry.

For the love of God, Can someone get some screenshots?

** Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW unless I am mistaken, that Combat Elite was a Commander Combat Elite, it had a short barrel.

How about you edit it then. Oh btw could you please put some more screenshots in it.

The gun that mike franks uses is a Kimber Warrior. I watched the episode today and I got a glimpse of the grips and magazine. I own one and they both match mine.

==Subdivide Category==
The handgun section of this article is exceptionally long and I was wondering whether putting revolvers (at least half a dozen are listed) in a separate category from auto pistols would help make the sectoin appear less bulky. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

That is a very good idea. -[[User: L.J. Gibbs]]

== Sniper Rifle ID ==

Need help ID'ing this rifle. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a Marine Corps M40A3.It is the newer version of the M40A1.

[[Image:NCIS_22020.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

They say that Gibbs M40A1 is in a .338 Lapua, which is impossible. The M40A1 was and will always be a short action reviever, it was the M24 that was built on the long action. Is this a mistake of the show itself or a mistake on this web site? [[Spades of Columbia]] Dec 12, 2010

I'm just going by what Abby says near the end of the episode, but she doesn't name any particular rifle. She just says she matched the bullet to his sniper rifle. If your going to have one rifle, why not have two. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This is from the NCIS wiki about Gibbs rifle ammo "Lapua 308 boat tail, full metal jacket, and molybdenum (or "moly")-coated rounds."

http://ncis.wikia.com/wiki/Leroy_Jethro_Gibbs

Now a lapua 308 win would make sense but why even say lapua when its still a winchester round. plus, it doesnt change the fact that this site has a m40a1 marked as a .338 lapua, so if someone could change that this would make the world right again. [[Spades of Columbia]]

It's a .308 Winchester chambered rifle, but the ammunition is manufactured by Lapua.

== SIG 229 ==

I don't have any screencap proof that they've changed over to the 229 in the new season, so I'm going to put this in the discussion until someone can tell me what episode they saw this in. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

SIG-Sauer P229
In season 7 the entire Team switches to the P229 .40 S&W the same model the REAL NCIS use.

[[Image:NCIS-ZIVA-7x11-P228.jpg|thumb|none|400px|7x11, P228 not a P229.]]

Also used in 7x08, 7x09, 7x10 and thats all I have recorded right now. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

that still looks like a 228 to me. the trigger guard looks round, and the slide serrations dont go halfway as does the 229. but thats just me...

That's what I said, though my wording could have been clearer. I've removed the listing until there is proof. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 05:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

oh crap, sorry i totally didn't read anything you wrote earlier. just looked at the picture x] my bad.

==Kel-Tec==
In one episode (I think it was either "Cloak" or "Dagger") Agent Lee threatens a man extorting information out of her with what looked like a Kel-Tec subcompact pistol. Can anyone confirm this? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

==The M9==
Technically isn't the M9 and the Beretta 92 the same gun?

- M9 is the military classification of the 92F Beretta, yes. But the M9 classification is used to refer to the guns actually used by actors representing military personnel, while 92F is used in reference to being used by someone non-military (even though in the case of films/shows, they're always 92Fs/92FSs anyway) In addition, the image thumbnail is of a much newer M9A1 (which has the rail), and is not the same as the base 92F/M9. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, I think.

::Actually, on IMFDB, we just call them all 92F/92FS, even when they're in the hands of actors playing U.S. military personnel. The reason is that propmasters and armorers in Hollywood only ever use the civilian 92Fs, because the military M9 is almost impossible to find in private hands. And we only care about the behind-the-scenes info, not real life. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Indeed. And I agree, I don't care about real life either. ;D [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Same here. God bless you all.

Can anyone here tell me what, if any, differences there are between a common 92FS and an M9? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 13:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, I'm wondering that myself. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 09:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

==Can't sleep==
I suppose there's no real point to this, but did anyone else notice this? Its from 7x08, and that's DiNozzo just of screen by the way.
[[Image:NCIS-7x08-1.jpg|thumb|none|400px|What's wrong with this picture?]]
:you mean the Glock? --[[User:Redram355|redram355]] 18:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I forgot I did this earlier. Yes, only that one single camera angle. I've never understood errors like that. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

At the end of the episode "Ravenous," I believe Tony is yet again holding a Glock. This could be a continuity error or it could be due to the fact that he worked for various police departments before joining NCIS. --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 03:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In season one, spisode 3 or 4 " The Curse", a gun is seen mounted on the wall at 34:46. Any idea what it is?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 02:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize there's a shitload of guns in that episode right? Happen to have a screenshot? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize i tolf you exactly when the gun is seen? Find the episode online.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 00:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I never notice any guns the first time. This what you mean? If so, not a clue. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-1x05-1.jpg|thumb|none|225px|Unknown gun from 1x05 ''The Curse'']]

That's it. Looks almost like a P38 sort of. --[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 01:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what i thought at first, but the front sight and trigger guard aren't right. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe a Luger or Walther prototype. Just a thought. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

Belive it's a Grendel P-30 pistol, with slide locked back. (Rusgunnut1)

==Moved from main page==
This is where discussions & comments are supposed to go. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

→IMI Mini Uzi -
I love how in this she goes and sprays rounds around from the hip while her mossad partner uses his P90 like true operator would [[24.17.120.59]]

→Walther P99 -
That is probably the smallest "suppressor" I have ever seen on any gun, I doubt it would do much in the way of sound suppression
[[24.17.120.59]]

What is with the section on the "Fake Glock 18". It either has a selector switch and is a true 18 or it doesnt, at which point it would be a modified 17. "Fake Glock 18" just comes off ignorant and is misleading. [[Spades of Columbia]]

== M40A1 ==
Ari attempts to kill Gibbs with it before Ziva kills him. Ari used .308 Lapua Magnums to kill Special Agent Todd, leading Ziva to remark that "You (Gibbs) used .338 Lapua Magnums when you were a sniper". This is strange because the M40A1 is chambered solely in 7.62X51 NATO cartridge. Another major note is that in the "Kill Ari" two part series, a round is called a .308 Lapua magnum was used, this is not an real round, the round used was likely confused with a .308 winchester, or a .338 Lapua magnum. I like the show, but they have to research their ammo.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Ziva never mentions what caliber Gibbs used, Gibbs himself states it and Ziva replies simply "''That's what you shot as a Marine sniper''"
Prior to this exchange, Gibb's states "''As a marine sniper, I used hand loaded Lapua .308 boattail full metal jacket moly-coated bullets.''" Though recently it has been stated that Gibb's used a .338 Lapua Magnum round to kill Pedro Hernandez in revenge for Shannon and Kelly's deaths. [http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=887] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You really need to know what your talking about to post you know. i watch this show almost religiously. trust me i know hat happens.
Under the M40A1, it claimed that Ari used a .338 Lapua round but in the episode "Kill Ari: Part 1" it states that Ari used a .308 Lapua round. I'm not sure how to go about editing the page and just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything. Can someone verify and edit for me? --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 21:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Like stated above the M40A1 is ONLY made in short action and can not possibly ever ever be in a .338 Lapua. Plus, do to the history of that caliber it would not be logical for Ari or Gibbs to use or even get their hands on that type of rifle, it must be a mistake from the show. [[Spades of Columbia]]

The whole deal with the .308 lapua magnum is confusing. 1)There is no such round as a .308 Lapua Magnum. 2) What there thinking of is a .338 lapua magnum for the "Kill Ari" series 3) Gibbs uses a .308s MANUFACTURED by Lapua. not created. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

In the episode "Borderland", Paloma Reynosa gave Abby the round that Gibbs left on the ridge. It said, on the bottom ".338 Lapua"

I know, it was gibbs personal rifle he used to kill Hernandez, not the M40A1. in the future you might wanna get an account or post your name if you want feedback.-[[User:SargeOverkill]]

== Too much info ==
Ducky reviews autopsy results from the crew of the freighter on which Ziva was traveling and mentions numerous "5.7x28mm" rounds in the bodies. While the 5.7x28mm cartridge is the correct ammo for the P90 used by Israel, the bullet in that cartridge is same .224 bullet used in the standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge fired by the M16, the SIG 550 and dozens of other weapons. How could Ducky know from just the autopsy that the bullets came from a 5.7x28?

-Bullet weight. They are different grain rounds.

-also, don't forget, you can tell what weapon fired the ammo by the rifling patterns.

== Weapons categorization ==

I noticed that someone reordered the handguns alphabetically. Because of the fact the SIG-Sauer P228 is the main handgun used in the series, I just going to put the SIG-Sauer section first. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree that's how it should be done, it makes sense. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

- Sounds fine to me. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

==Rule Fifty-One==

I was watching the Season 7 finale the other day and I noticed a few things. There's a really good shot of part of Mike Franks's Kimber near the end; it looks like it has pearl grips, but I couldn't get a screencap. Also the cartel members had at least one G36C in Mexico, and a couple MP5Ks on the runway. Unfortunately I couldn't get screencaps so can someone maybe look into this? Thanks --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 22:01, 9 August 2010

I watched the episode and Franks' gun has crimson trace laser grips in tan. It looked like it had night sights but wasnt a warrior because it didnt have a ambidextrous safety. I think that his gun is a regular custom II with the night sights and the laser grips.

== SMG in Ziva's Flashback in Shalom==

Can anyone ID the SMG used by Ziva in her flashback to a Mossad Kidon assassination in "Shalom".

It was a [[Micro Uzi]] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you, Crazycrankle.

==Revolver used in Cover Story==

Can anyone ID the revolver used by Landon in "Cover Story"? P.S. Add a screencap with the ID.

==Beretta 92FS Inox==

The "Beretta 92FS Inox" has a finish that's way too shiny to be an Inoxidizable (stainless) finish. It looks to me like it's actually a regular Beretta 92F with an after-market polished nickel finish and pearl (or pearlite) grips. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

==Some Unknown Guns==

A few guns that I'm not positive on. They might not be 100% necessary, but here they are:
[[Image:TwilightHK94_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Possibly an HK94 Carbine with a civilian-length barrel and a stock. There isn't a clearer shot than this.]]
[[Image:ZivaRevolver1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A snubnosed revolver that Ziva uses to gun down a serial killer while undercover, don't remember the episode but it was in Season 6. The episode is titled "Recoil." It's from Season 5. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 20:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)L.J. Gibbs]]
[[Image:NCISS5 504.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Same as above.]]
[[Image:Sxsw_lever_action.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A lever action rifle used briefly in "South by Southwest". Possibly the same one Gibbs uses?]]
[[Image:GCBC_AK74_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Maybe an AKS-74, based on the magazine?]]

Given that AK type rifles were used by all the other terrorists, chance are good it's one of the many types. And the Ziva caps are listed as a Colt Python on the main page, though the listing lacks screencaps. Also you may want better quality screencaps if you want to put any of those on the page. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't have anything better. If anyone else does or can get them it'd be great. That's why I put them here instead. -[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 17:23, 19 August 2010

==Ziva's rifle in 4x14: Blowback==
[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Not a SL8, maybe a Remington 700 or something? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 07:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]
Maybe it's a Remington AICS, do you have any other screenshots? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 08:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|How's this? Didn't think there was a shot from farther out, I paying attention to the wrong screen when this appeared. Still not very good though. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]

Yeah, it looks a Remington 700PSS.--[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 09:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

the episode "recoil" wasnt in s6 it was the 3rd last episode of season 5

== Ziva's Knife ==

What kind of tac knife does Ziva use? It looks like a SOG Tsunami to me, but were those in production when she first appeared (around Season 3's "Silver War")?

It's listed on BladeForums as a Cold Steel Kobun. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

== Frank's Kimber ==

I've been watching for some time now, and have only seen Frank's in 3 episodes. All of these episodes hes' used his Kimber is it just a coincidence or is that his signature weapon like James Bond's is the Walther, and that Dirty Harry's is the .44? [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 00:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

: I wouldnt call it 'signature', but rather his main sidearm. Bond and Dirty Harry had it A LOT and even people who know diddly squat about guns could tell who had a 44 magnum. Franks' Kimber has only been in a few episodes, and we still arent sure what kind of Kimber it is.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 04:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

== McGee is left-handed ==

Is this problematic when using a SIG pistol?

Only when he wants to use the de-cocker...everything else works just fine.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 20:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, McGee is left handed. Like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

:The de-cocker is a bit of a problem, the slidelock can also be a bit of an issue depending on the size of the shooter's hands. My fingers are a little to long to easily use the P22X slidelock, but I'd imagine that someone with slightly smaller hands could manage it with relative ease.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 22:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

My hands are a little on the larger side, even being a woman (im 5'10") but ive never had an issue using a Sig left handed. Yes, its not as ergonomically sound as right handed but i can shoot left handed without much issue. -MissySummers-

==Revolvers==
I separated the revolvers from the pistols in the handgun section to make the page easier to digest. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

:- I don't think it hurts anything. Nice idea, good job. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

==Pm12==
The mexican dude used a pm12 of some sort in the latest episode, couldn't distinguish what exactly.

You mean the Beretta M12? I know, I added it. Anyone know what the Mexican drug-dealer lady had?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 19:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

:I'm assuming you mean this? And her goons were using 551's. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-Paloma-Pistol-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Not a clue.]]

Thats a magnum research micro eagle.
-k9870

Gibbs had that double-barrel shotgun for a second or two as well, and there was a pretty good shot of Franks' Kimber too. --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]]

:Should we put that screencap in the main page? [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

No, is very obviously bootleg, which is against site rules. It's been less than a week, so unless you can show me where on the official site it came from, it's bootleg and not allowed on the main page. When the DVD set comes out, it's cool. (Can we screen cap episodes that are available on the CBS webpage?)--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 16:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a very high probability that most, if not all, screen caps from active TV seasons are "bootlegs". The only "legit" options are iTunes and Hulu, the later doesn't meet quality requirements in most peoples eyes. The former is expensive when you already plan on buying the entire season when it's on Blu-ray or DVD. Also, I replaced it with what I believe is an iTunes downloaded version. (I did it on my mum's friends computer, there's no watermarks or anything.) I also got other HD caps from the episode aswell. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

==MP-9==
Not to be picky, but should we have the MP-9 from "Legend: Part II" on here as well, since we have the SIG SG 552s and Glock 17 from that episode as well? --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 11: 53, 26 September 2010
:Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

==Jericho 941==
Is this a Jericho 941 or another Desert Eagle?
[[Image:NCIS34 502.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

Neither. The trigger guard has a curve to it; both Eagles have straight guards. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Beretta Cheetah springs to mind. [[User:Noe|Noe]] 11:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

That was my first thought, but the slide isn't the right shape at the front. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 11:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

CZ-83

It looks a lot like a Makarov PM, or the hungaran variant

When Faatin Amal starts to put the pillow over Namir Eschel's face, the pistol is a suppressed Makarov PM, but after Eschel dies, the pistol looks like a CZ-83. Can anyone confirm that othern than myself?--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 08:26, 6 November 2011 (CST)

== Ziva's backup in "Jack Knife" ==

What compact pistol did Ziva carry in Season 7's "Jack Knife"? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS7 33.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like an AMT Backup. Whether it is the .45 ACP, 9mm, or .380 is beyond me. Can't see the barrel diameter.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

==Sniper rifle used in "The Bone Yard"==
Can anyone ID the sniper rifle used in Season 1's "The Bone Yard"? It's the rifle used by the mob hitman. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Ben41. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 14:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS2 60.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

==Suppressed Glock in "Designated Target"==
Can anyone ID the exact model of suppressed Glock that was used by one of the Burundian death squad members?

==Photo of Webley==
Here's the screencap of the Webley revolver used in the recent NCIS episode.

[[Image:Webley revolver NCIS.jpg|250px]]

Feel free to use it to correct the article if any. Thanks. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 23:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

:I think that might actually be an Enfield No.2 going by the caliber... I'll have to watch the episode again.

:: I see. NCIS refers to it as a Webley. But they can be wrong. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm just a bit ticked off that the Royal Marine Major claims to keep one in his flat in London. You know, what with private ownership of handguns being all but illegal in Britain. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
: Oh Go bark at the moon.--[[User:SAMBAMA|SAMBAMA]] 17:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Antique firearm collectors in the United Kingdom ARE allowed to buy and sell pieces for their collections. Having said that, i'm not very familiar with webley revolvers. Are they old enough to be considered 'antique'?--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 17:41, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== editing page ==

In order to edit the page, you need to be a registered user. If you are not, you can make recommendations for changes on this discussion page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Forend isn't a word, and as far as I know lights are always mounted fore, not hind. I recommend a wholesale removal of the word forend without replacement.

== Kahr P9/K9 ==

The section on the Kahr P9 contains the statement: "The P9 is similar to the K9 but it has the +1 magazine." This is incorrect. The P9 and K9 are both 7+1 guns in stock configuration and their magazines are interchangeable. The P9 has a polymer frame and the K9 has a stainless steel frame. The P9 can be seen on Kahr's website here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-P9.asp], and the K9 can be seen here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K9.asp]. You can see both come standard with a 7 round magazine.

==Borin's SIG in "Ships in the Night"==
The subcompact SIG that CGIS Special Agent Abigail Borin had in her purse looked like either a Stainless Steel SIG P230 or a Stainless Steel SIG P232. Can anyone make a positive ID? Add a screencap, too, when you make the ID.--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 18:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

==Gibbs' Suppressed Gun in "Judgment Day" Flashback==
I believe that the suppressed gun that Gibbs used to assassinate Anatoli Zukov in the flashback in Judgment Day Part 1 & 2 and again in a flashback in Enemies Domestic was a suppressed SIG Sauer P228.
P.S. When Gibbs shot Zukov, he fired three shots. Two into Zukov's chest and one in his head. Execution-style. Please note the same execution style shooting in Brothers In Arms. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC) I would try to get a screencap, but I do not have any of the NCIS seasons on DVD. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Was that back when he was in Paris with Jen? If so, I think it would be pretty hard to identify due to the effects they use in flashback scenes.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
::Not if you have a keen eye for detail, like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::It would make sense to use a P228, since it is their duty pistol. --[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::But I honestly do not think that there are any SIG Sauer P228's that are made to accept a suppressor. At least, none that I know of. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm sure that there are threaded barrels availiable for the P228. Probably not as much now, since the P228 isn't in production anymore :( but back when that scene took place I'm sure they were availiable.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 21:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::These were the first two results when I used Yahoo! Search for threaded barrels for the SIG Sauer P228.
::::::http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-p229-replacement-barrel-9mm-threaded.html
::::::http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/ShowProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=29&productid=311

:::::::::It doesn't matter if there are externally threaded barrels available for the P228; any movie pistol can take a suppressor because the barrel has to be threaded internally in order to accept the blank-firing adapter (BFA). Fake suppressors can be added simply by using an attachment that screws into the barrel's internal threading after the blank conversion has been done. This is why you routinely see characters in movies screwing suppressors onto pistols that do not have externally threaded barrels. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 11:00, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== Henry Rifle in Season 6 "South by Southwest" ==

Just saw this episode on TV and the Henry rifle is mis-classified as a Winchester Model 1873. The two are very close in construction, but the rifle referred to as "the Henry" from the show is indeed a Henry 30-30. You have to look close during the show but the rifle Gibbs uses has an Octagon barrel which is only used in Henry rifles.

== Unknown MG found by Malachi ==

I think this thing might be an M240, judging by the heat shield. Still not sure why it's got an EoTech on it, though. [[User:Raven|Raven]] 06:56, 9 March 2011 (MSK)

== Tony's Gun in Baltimore ==

I of course don't have screen caps and maybe somebody out there already does...
The gun Tony carried while working for Baltimore P.D. looks to be a Colt Commander or the like. Black grips, probably not full 5-inch barrel, and possible novak rear sight. Just wondering if Anybody else caught that. [[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]
::I definitely agree it is a 1911 variant with novak sights, but I think it did have a full length barrel. I could be wrong though UPDATE: Just got around to looking at it again, definite novak sights and no slant in the slide serrations (none in the front).User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:45, 6 May 2011 (CDT)

The page says its a Gold Cup National Match but i dont think it looks anything like it. Maybe a customized Series 70? -Missy

:Definitely not a Gold Cup, but I don't really know what it could be. Springfield Armory of some kind? For know I am moving it to "Unidentified 1911".--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 18:16, 20 November 2011 (CST)

== Frank's SW1911==
In "Pyramid" when we get the shot of Franks' SW1911, the slide reads SW1911'''PD''', and there are no rails on the frame. Doesn't the only full-length barrel SW1911PD have rails? I couldn't find a 5" barrel PD with no rails.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:39, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== DVD Cover ==

Do you think we should update the DVD Cover pictures to the latest (season 8)? Here it is to decide if you like it or not.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:52, 12 August 2011 (CDT)
[[Image:NCISDVDCoverSeason8.jpg|thumb|none|250px|NCIS- Season 8 (2010-2011)]]

== 9x03 "The Penelope Papers" ==

In the latest episode - 9x03, ''The Penelope Papers'' - there was something described as a Vietnam-era prototype carbon-fibre pistol. Is this an actual gun, or was it made up? The microchips in the caterpillar (self-replicating, no less) were dreadfully fake, but in a world that includes the gyrojet and the Krummlauf... well, I wouldn't put anything past wartime weapons tech.

So, anyone have any ideas? Fictional prop, or little-known prototype? [[User:Awmperry|Awmperry]] 12:47, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

: Probably a prop from actual pistols. Not sure if we should put it up. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 20:55, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

::I think we should, it was a pistol after all and this site usually adds weapons even if they are mocked up. Looked like a CZ variant to me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:47, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:NCIS-BLACKHAND.jpg|thumb|500px|none|The "Black Hand". --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:38, 13 October 2011 (CDT)]]

Hmmmm... could be a mocked up HK45 or Mk 23, but I honestly have NO ideas--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 15:07, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

: Leaning on the former there mate. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 19:56, 13 October 2011 (CDT)
:: Grip definitely looks more HK45-ish. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 03:33, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
::: It is an IMI / IWI SP-21 Barak pistol. [[User:SgtRonin|SgtRonin]] 05:36, 06 November 2011 (CDT)

==9x04 "Enemy on the Hill"==

Got the photo of the two snipers. One of them's an AW rifle. I'm not on the other rifle. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 01:57, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

==Splitting the article to seasons==

Some of the long articles have been like 24 and Ultimate Force so far with Hawaii Five-0 following it. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 00:39, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

It's going to be a little tougher since this show is already in its 9th season. It didn't seem that they used a lot of different weapons each season like Hawaii Five-0. The agents all still use the SIG and they don't go on a lot of raids using more than their sidearms. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:45, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ugh, what is this, season-splitting week? First H-50 which I can understand, but now NCIS? It doesn't really need it, does it?--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 03:28, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:[[Stargate: SG1]] got season split despite mostly using the same weapons from season to season. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 06:09, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

== Additional Screenshots ==

[[Image:NCIS 005.JPG|thumb|none|500px|In the Season 2 episode "Chained", Gibbs pulls his P228.]]
[[Image:NCIS 007.JPG|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo with his P228 in the Season 3 episode "Bait".]]
[[Image:NCIS 008.JPG|thumb|none|500px|Ziva David ([[Cote de Pablo]]) draws her P228 in Season 3's "Ravenous".]]
[[Image:NCISS3 001.jpg|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) with his P228 in Season 3's "Switch".]]
[[File:NCIS Tony shooting range.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Tony fires his P228 in a shooting range in the first episode of Season 9's "Nature of the Beast".]]

Talk:True Grit (2010)

2011-11-21T03:14:36Z

StarSummers: /* "Rooster" Cogburn charge */

== A remake? ==

I know that the original ''[[True Grit]]'' was made 42 years ago and for many movie-goers it might as well have been made 100 years ago, but still that's pretty gutsy. Rooster Cogburn was the role that got [[John Wayne]] his Oscar and the original movie is a classic. However I will probably go and see this one whne it comes out at Christmas. I like [[Jeff Bridges]] and the Coen Brothers. Change of pace for them as well. Well somewhat. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

They're both based on a novel by Charles Portis. The Coen's version is apparently closer to the book than the 1969 film is.--[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]]

The Coen Brothers version looks like it's going to be a lot darker and grittier than the other one. It looks badass. -[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Those that have read the book know that it also has a good deal of humor, thanks to the first person narration of Mattie Ross. I hope and trust the Coens to include that aspect as well, though not in a voice-over.
-[[User:Blokhed|Blokhed]] 29 September 2010

I'm glad that Josh Brolin is in this. It'll make up for his piece-of-crap ''Jonah Hex'' movie. --[[User:Swordfish941|Swordfish941]] 15:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Well I watched it last night. It's pretty good. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 15:24, 11 June 2011 (CDT)

==Unknown Winchester==

Rooster is also seen firing a Winchester at one point in the trailer, though I can't discern which model.

:It looks like a Model 1873, or possibly an 1876. I say it could be an 1876 because of the rather large bore diameter. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

[[Image:tg-winchester-rooster.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rooster takes aim with his Winchester.]]
[[Image:TG 01.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:TG 02.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

=="Rooster" Cogburn charge==

"Rooster" Cogburn could be using his Single Action Army and Mattie Ross Colt Dragoon because it looks like only the gun in his left has a loading lever

nevermind in one of the TV spot trailers is shows there there both Colt navy or Colt Dragoon, it hard to tell

-- I just saw the movie, and can confirm that he uses his two 1851 Navys, contrary to my earlier identification of one Navy and one Dragoon. In fact he never handles Mattie's Dragoon apart from the beginning. -- Blokhed 12/26/10

The revolvers Rooster uses in making the charge are both 2nd model Colt Dragoons. He carries them in pommel holsters on the forks of his saddle. They are from the description in the Portis novel. They are the same model as Mattie's pistol. the reference to "Navy sixes" was an error in dialogue. Rooster carries a 7 1/2" Colt "Peacemaker" in a belt holster as described in the novel.

During the Corn Bread Shoot, when the Dragoon is seen in his hand, i believe it was meant to stand in for one of his 1851 Navies. He empties his SAA, when retrieving more corn bread, the holsters on his saddle is only holding one of his Navies. http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-04h01m39s156.png Note here, the near side holster is clearly holding a pistol while here, http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-03h58m43s23.png the holster is now clearly empty. The scene between these two is the clear shot of the Dragoon in his hands. -MissySummers-

== How does he fire right handed? ==

Hes blind in his right eye yet he fires long guns right handed, how could he be accurate without seeing the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Which hand you use does not matter, eye dominance does. For example, my father shoots right handed while is left eye dominant. - Jeff

You don't get it, he can't SEE out of his right eye, how can he aim if he can not SEE the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:54, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

you just tilt you head so you left eye is lined up with the sights.

Yeah, note the first picture above, his head is tilted far enough to use his left eye. (Im also right handed and left eye dominant.)

== The rope around the Henry Rifle. ==

I think the rope Brolin's character uses as a carrying strap should be mentioned because i just saw the film in theaters and the 3 other people that were with me were confused with what that was. Don't ask.

== Sharps1874 or 1868? (moved from main movie page) ==

I have seen this carbine mis-identified ever since this movie came out. Apparently others are just repeating what someone else assumed. It was not an 1874 Sharps carbine, of which only 496 were made. He (like the real Texas rangers, see Durham’s “Taming the Nueces Strip”) is using an 1868 Sharps carbine conversion. .50-70….of which 31,000 were converted. from Percussion to Cartridge and distributed to troops and millitia’s and yes, texas rangers…was in use into the 80s.

If you want a replica of that gun, somebody makes an exact one of McNelly’s which is exactly like the one Matt Damon’s character is using.

bc

== Chaney's Henry and sling ==

I just corrected some of the description. In the book, the Henry was NOT stolen from Mattie's father; it is described as Chaney's rifle from the beginning. Also, the book makes special mention of the fact that he uses "a piece of cotton plow line" for a sling. "He could have taken an old piece of harness and made a nice leather strap for it. That would have been too much trouble." - Blokhed, 2/9/11

Is it just me or does the rope obstruck the sights?--[[User:Mattatack92|Mattatack92]] 23:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It does obstruck the sights, but we never actually see him fire from the shoulder in the movie.--[[User:Insight11|Insight11]] 20:43, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

(moved from main page)
[[Image:Tg-henry-2.jpg|thumb|none|300px|The poster shows [[Josh Brolin]] as Chaney with the Henry.]]

==Possible identification error==
In this image, it appears Cogburn is holding Mattie's Colt Dragoon. The barrel and frame appear thicker than on a Navy Colt, and the loading lever latch is smaller like a Dragoon, instead of covering the whole front of the loading lever like on a Navy. Also, the all around size of the revolver appears larger than a Navy. In the other shots it does appear he uses Navy Colts, but I think in this scene he may have used Mattie's gun to shoot the corn dodgers with.
[[File:TG10 002.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
- [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

Talk:The Patriot (2000)

2011-11-21T02:57:31Z

StarSummers: /* Charleville */ new section

The main rifle made for Mel Gibson's character was made by Frank House. To read an article about how Gibson learned to load and fire for ''The Patriot'' read ''Aim Small, Miss Small'' by Mark A. Baker. This was a column written for Muzzleloader Magazine, and can be found in ''A Pilgrim's Journey Volume Two:1996-2005'' by Mark A. Baker.
--[[User:Markethunter|Markethunter]] 21:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

== Movie Goof ==

In the scene where Gibson's character rescues his oldest son, he tells Samuel to reload for his brother Nathan after his first shot. Yet, you don't see any reloading accoutrements with the them. The only one who has a powder horn and shot pouch is Gibson.
--[[User:Markethunter|Markethunter]] 18:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

== Charleville ==

On the page, its labelled as a Rifle, but from what i read its a smoothbore, so its actually a Musket isnt it?

Talk:NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service

2011-11-20T22:12:54Z

StarSummers: /* Tony's Gun in Baltimore */

==Title change==
Is there any chance this page's title can be changed back to NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service? It hasn't been called Navy NCIS in years. [[User: Ben41|Ben41]]

Am I the only one who thinks this article is arranged in a very confusing manner? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 19:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:Hold up... -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

:Better? -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Much. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

I did some cleaning up, but this page still needs a LOT of work. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC

Did anyone see the gun stash in the Season 7 episode "Power Down"? There's an MP7, G36, UMP, P90, M16A2, MP5 and many other guns.```

It's looking very much better. This is the only article I've seen on here arranged in such an extremely sloppy manner that it was when I posted my first comment above. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

the rifle gibbs used in the helicopter shot , was a winchester 73 with a vineer sight. you were right it was not a henry.

For the love of God, Can someone get some screenshots?

** Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW unless I am mistaken, that Combat Elite was a Commander Combat Elite, it had a short barrel.

How about you edit it then. Oh btw could you please put some more screenshots in it.

The gun that mike franks uses is a Kimber Warrior. I watched the episode today and I got a glimpse of the grips and magazine. I own one and they both match mine.

==Subdivide Category==
The handgun section of this article is exceptionally long and I was wondering whether putting revolvers (at least half a dozen are listed) in a separate category from auto pistols would help make the sectoin appear less bulky. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

That is a very good idea. -[[User: L.J. Gibbs]]

== Sniper Rifle ID ==

Need help ID'ing this rifle. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a Marine Corps M40A3.It is the newer version of the M40A1.

[[Image:NCIS_22020.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

They say that Gibbs M40A1 is in a .338 Lapua, which is impossible. The M40A1 was and will always be a short action reviever, it was the M24 that was built on the long action. Is this a mistake of the show itself or a mistake on this web site? [[Spades of Columbia]] Dec 12, 2010

I'm just going by what Abby says near the end of the episode, but she doesn't name any particular rifle. She just says she matched the bullet to his sniper rifle. If your going to have one rifle, why not have two. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This is from the NCIS wiki about Gibbs rifle ammo "Lapua 308 boat tail, full metal jacket, and molybdenum (or "moly")-coated rounds."

http://ncis.wikia.com/wiki/Leroy_Jethro_Gibbs

Now a lapua 308 win would make sense but why even say lapua when its still a winchester round. plus, it doesnt change the fact that this site has a m40a1 marked as a .338 lapua, so if someone could change that this would make the world right again. [[Spades of Columbia]]

It's a .308 Winchester chambered rifle, but the ammunition is manufactured by Lapua.

== SIG 229 ==

I don't have any screencap proof that they've changed over to the 229 in the new season, so I'm going to put this in the discussion until someone can tell me what episode they saw this in. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

SIG-Sauer P229
In season 7 the entire Team switches to the P229 .40 S&W the same model the REAL NCIS use.

[[Image:NCIS-ZIVA-7x11-P228.jpg|thumb|none|400px|7x11, P228 not a P229.]]

Also used in 7x08, 7x09, 7x10 and thats all I have recorded right now. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

that still looks like a 228 to me. the trigger guard looks round, and the slide serrations dont go halfway as does the 229. but thats just me...

That's what I said, though my wording could have been clearer. I've removed the listing until there is proof. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 05:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

oh crap, sorry i totally didn't read anything you wrote earlier. just looked at the picture x] my bad.

==Kel-Tec==
In one episode (I think it was either "Cloak" or "Dagger") Agent Lee threatens a man extorting information out of her with what looked like a Kel-Tec subcompact pistol. Can anyone confirm this? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

==The M9==
Technically isn't the M9 and the Beretta 92 the same gun?

- M9 is the military classification of the 92F Beretta, yes. But the M9 classification is used to refer to the guns actually used by actors representing military personnel, while 92F is used in reference to being used by someone non-military (even though in the case of films/shows, they're always 92Fs/92FSs anyway) In addition, the image thumbnail is of a much newer M9A1 (which has the rail), and is not the same as the base 92F/M9. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 19:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, I think.

::Actually, on IMFDB, we just call them all 92F/92FS, even when they're in the hands of actors playing U.S. military personnel. The reason is that propmasters and armorers in Hollywood only ever use the civilian 92Fs, because the military M9 is almost impossible to find in private hands. And we only care about the behind-the-scenes info, not real life. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

:- Indeed. And I agree, I don't care about real life either. ;D [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Same here. God bless you all.

Can anyone here tell me what, if any, differences there are between a common 92FS and an M9? --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 13:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, I'm wondering that myself. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 09:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

==Can't sleep==
I suppose there's no real point to this, but did anyone else notice this? Its from 7x08, and that's DiNozzo just of screen by the way.
[[Image:NCIS-7x08-1.jpg|thumb|none|400px|What's wrong with this picture?]]
:you mean the Glock? --[[User:Redram355|redram355]] 18:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I forgot I did this earlier. Yes, only that one single camera angle. I've never understood errors like that. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

At the end of the episode "Ravenous," I believe Tony is yet again holding a Glock. This could be a continuity error or it could be due to the fact that he worked for various police departments before joining NCIS. --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 03:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In season one, spisode 3 or 4 " The Curse", a gun is seen mounted on the wall at 34:46. Any idea what it is?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 02:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize there's a shitload of guns in that episode right? Happen to have a screenshot? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 20:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You do realize i tolf you exactly when the gun is seen? Find the episode online.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 00:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I never notice any guns the first time. This what you mean? If so, not a clue. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-1x05-1.jpg|thumb|none|225px|Unknown gun from 1x05 ''The Curse'']]

That's it. Looks almost like a P38 sort of. --[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 01:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what i thought at first, but the front sight and trigger guard aren't right. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe a Luger or Walther prototype. Just a thought. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

Belive it's a Grendel P-30 pistol, with slide locked back. (Rusgunnut1)

==Moved from main page==
This is where discussions & comments are supposed to go. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 04:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

→IMI Mini Uzi -
I love how in this she goes and sprays rounds around from the hip while her mossad partner uses his P90 like true operator would [[24.17.120.59]]

→Walther P99 -
That is probably the smallest "suppressor" I have ever seen on any gun, I doubt it would do much in the way of sound suppression
[[24.17.120.59]]

What is with the section on the "Fake Glock 18". It either has a selector switch and is a true 18 or it doesnt, at which point it would be a modified 17. "Fake Glock 18" just comes off ignorant and is misleading. [[Spades of Columbia]]

== M40A1 ==
Ari attempts to kill Gibbs with it before Ziva kills him. Ari used .308 Lapua Magnums to kill Special Agent Todd, leading Ziva to remark that "You (Gibbs) used .338 Lapua Magnums when you were a sniper". This is strange because the M40A1 is chambered solely in 7.62X51 NATO cartridge. Another major note is that in the "Kill Ari" two part series, a round is called a .308 Lapua magnum was used, this is not an real round, the round used was likely confused with a .308 winchester, or a .338 Lapua magnum. I like the show, but they have to research their ammo.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Ziva never mentions what caliber Gibbs used, Gibbs himself states it and Ziva replies simply "''That's what you shot as a Marine sniper''"
Prior to this exchange, Gibb's states "''As a marine sniper, I used hand loaded Lapua .308 boattail full metal jacket moly-coated bullets.''" Though recently it has been stated that Gibb's used a .338 Lapua Magnum round to kill Pedro Hernandez in revenge for Shannon and Kelly's deaths. [http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=887] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You really need to know what your talking about to post you know. i watch this show almost religiously. trust me i know hat happens.
Under the M40A1, it claimed that Ari used a .338 Lapua round but in the episode "Kill Ari: Part 1" it states that Ari used a .308 Lapua round. I'm not sure how to go about editing the page and just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything. Can someone verify and edit for me? --[[User:Stephen87|Stephen87]] 21:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Like stated above the M40A1 is ONLY made in short action and can not possibly ever ever be in a .338 Lapua. Plus, do to the history of that caliber it would not be logical for Ari or Gibbs to use or even get their hands on that type of rifle, it must be a mistake from the show. [[Spades of Columbia]]

The whole deal with the .308 lapua magnum is confusing. 1)There is no such round as a .308 Lapua Magnum. 2) What there thinking of is a .338 lapua magnum for the "Kill Ari" series 3) Gibbs uses a .308s MANUFACTURED by Lapua. not created. [[User:SargeOverkill]]

In the episode "Borderland", Paloma Reynosa gave Abby the round that Gibbs left on the ridge. It said, on the bottom ".338 Lapua"

I know, it was gibbs personal rifle he used to kill Hernandez, not the M40A1. in the future you might wanna get an account or post your name if you want feedback.-[[User:SargeOverkill]]

== Too much info ==
Ducky reviews autopsy results from the crew of the freighter on which Ziva was traveling and mentions numerous "5.7x28mm" rounds in the bodies. While the 5.7x28mm cartridge is the correct ammo for the P90 used by Israel, the bullet in that cartridge is same .224 bullet used in the standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge fired by the M16, the SIG 550 and dozens of other weapons. How could Ducky know from just the autopsy that the bullets came from a 5.7x28?

-Bullet weight. They are different grain rounds.

-also, don't forget, you can tell what weapon fired the ammo by the rifling patterns.

== Weapons categorization ==

I noticed that someone reordered the handguns alphabetically. Because of the fact the SIG-Sauer P228 is the main handgun used in the series, I just going to put the SIG-Sauer section first. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree that's how it should be done, it makes sense. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

- Sounds fine to me. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 21:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

==Rule Fifty-One==

I was watching the Season 7 finale the other day and I noticed a few things. There's a really good shot of part of Mike Franks's Kimber near the end; it looks like it has pearl grips, but I couldn't get a screencap. Also the cartel members had at least one G36C in Mexico, and a couple MP5Ks on the runway. Unfortunately I couldn't get screencaps so can someone maybe look into this? Thanks --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 22:01, 9 August 2010

I watched the episode and Franks' gun has crimson trace laser grips in tan. It looked like it had night sights but wasnt a warrior because it didnt have a ambidextrous safety. I think that his gun is a regular custom II with the night sights and the laser grips.

== SMG in Ziva's Flashback in Shalom==

Can anyone ID the SMG used by Ziva in her flashback to a Mossad Kidon assassination in "Shalom".

It was a [[Micro Uzi]] --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you, Crazycrankle.

==Revolver used in Cover Story==

Can anyone ID the revolver used by Landon in "Cover Story"? P.S. Add a screencap with the ID.

==Beretta 92FS Inox==

The "Beretta 92FS Inox" has a finish that's way too shiny to be an Inoxidizable (stainless) finish. It looks to me like it's actually a regular Beretta 92F with an after-market polished nickel finish and pearl (or pearlite) grips. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

==Some Unknown Guns==

A few guns that I'm not positive on. They might not be 100% necessary, but here they are:
[[Image:TwilightHK94_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Possibly an HK94 Carbine with a civilian-length barrel and a stock. There isn't a clearer shot than this.]]
[[Image:ZivaRevolver1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A snubnosed revolver that Ziva uses to gun down a serial killer while undercover, don't remember the episode but it was in Season 6. The episode is titled "Recoil." It's from Season 5. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 20:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)L.J. Gibbs]]
[[Image:NCISS5 504.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Same as above.]]
[[Image:Sxsw_lever_action.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A lever action rifle used briefly in "South by Southwest". Possibly the same one Gibbs uses?]]
[[Image:GCBC_AK74_&Q.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Maybe an AKS-74, based on the magazine?]]

Given that AK type rifles were used by all the other terrorists, chance are good it's one of the many types. And the Ziva caps are listed as a Colt Python on the main page, though the listing lacks screencaps. Also you may want better quality screencaps if you want to put any of those on the page. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't have anything better. If anyone else does or can get them it'd be great. That's why I put them here instead. -[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 17:23, 19 August 2010

==Ziva's rifle in 4x14: Blowback==
[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Not a SL8, maybe a Remington 700 or something? --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 07:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]
Maybe it's a Remington AICS, do you have any other screenshots? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 08:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

[[Image:NCIS-Ziva-4x14-Rifle-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|How's this? Didn't think there was a shot from farther out, I paying attention to the wrong screen when this appeared. Still not very good though. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)]]

Yeah, it looks a Remington 700PSS.--[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 09:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

the episode "recoil" wasnt in s6 it was the 3rd last episode of season 5

== Ziva's Knife ==

What kind of tac knife does Ziva use? It looks like a SOG Tsunami to me, but were those in production when she first appeared (around Season 3's "Silver War")?

It's listed on BladeForums as a Cold Steel Kobun. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 23:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

== Frank's Kimber ==

I've been watching for some time now, and have only seen Frank's in 3 episodes. All of these episodes hes' used his Kimber is it just a coincidence or is that his signature weapon like James Bond's is the Walther, and that Dirty Harry's is the .44? [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 00:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

: I wouldnt call it 'signature', but rather his main sidearm. Bond and Dirty Harry had it A LOT and even people who know diddly squat about guns could tell who had a 44 magnum. Franks' Kimber has only been in a few episodes, and we still arent sure what kind of Kimber it is.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 04:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

== McGee is left-handed ==

Is this problematic when using a SIG pistol?

Only when he wants to use the de-cocker...everything else works just fine.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 20:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, McGee is left handed. Like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

:The de-cocker is a bit of a problem, the slidelock can also be a bit of an issue depending on the size of the shooter's hands. My fingers are a little to long to easily use the P22X slidelock, but I'd imagine that someone with slightly smaller hands could manage it with relative ease.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 22:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

==Revolvers==
I separated the revolvers from the pistols in the handgun section to make the page easier to digest. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

:- I don't think it hurts anything. Nice idea, good job. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

==Pm12==
The mexican dude used a pm12 of some sort in the latest episode, couldn't distinguish what exactly.

You mean the Beretta M12? I know, I added it. Anyone know what the Mexican drug-dealer lady had?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 19:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

:I'm assuming you mean this? And her goons were using 551's. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCIS-Paloma-Pistol-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Not a clue.]]

Thats a magnum research micro eagle.
-k9870

Gibbs had that double-barrel shotgun for a second or two as well, and there was a pretty good shot of Franks' Kimber too. --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]]

:Should we put that screencap in the main page? [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

No, is very obviously bootleg, which is against site rules. It's been less than a week, so unless you can show me where on the official site it came from, it's bootleg and not allowed on the main page. When the DVD set comes out, it's cool. (Can we screen cap episodes that are available on the CBS webpage?)--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 16:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a very high probability that most, if not all, screen caps from active TV seasons are "bootlegs". The only "legit" options are iTunes and Hulu, the later doesn't meet quality requirements in most peoples eyes. The former is expensive when you already plan on buying the entire season when it's on Blu-ray or DVD. Also, I replaced it with what I believe is an iTunes downloaded version. (I did it on my mum's friends computer, there's no watermarks or anything.) I also got other HD caps from the episode aswell. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 00:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

==MP-9==
Not to be picky, but should we have the MP-9 from "Legend: Part II" on here as well, since we have the SIG SG 552s and Glock 17 from that episode as well? --[[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 11: 53, 26 September 2010
:Done. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 21:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

==Jericho 941==
Is this a Jericho 941 or another Desert Eagle?
[[Image:NCIS34 502.jpg|thumb|none|500px]]

Neither. The trigger guard has a curve to it; both Eagles have straight guards. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Beretta Cheetah springs to mind. [[User:Noe|Noe]] 11:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

That was my first thought, but the slide isn't the right shape at the front. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 11:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

CZ-83

It looks a lot like a Makarov PM, or the hungaran variant

When Faatin Amal starts to put the pillow over Namir Eschel's face, the pistol is a suppressed Makarov PM, but after Eschel dies, the pistol looks like a CZ-83. Can anyone confirm that othern than myself?--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 08:26, 6 November 2011 (CST)

== Ziva's backup in "Jack Knife" ==

What compact pistol did Ziva carry in Season 7's "Jack Knife"? --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 03:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS7 33.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Looks like an AMT Backup. Whether it is the .45 ACP, 9mm, or .380 is beyond me. Can't see the barrel diameter.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 12:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

==Sniper rifle used in "The Bone Yard"==
Can anyone ID the sniper rifle used in Season 1's "The Bone Yard"? It's the rifle used by the mob hitman. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 07:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Ben41. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 14:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:NCISS2 60.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

==Suppressed Glock in "Designated Target"==
Can anyone ID the exact model of suppressed Glock that was used by one of the Burundian death squad members?

==Photo of Webley==
Here's the screencap of the Webley revolver used in the recent NCIS episode.

[[Image:Webley revolver NCIS.jpg|250px]]

Feel free to use it to correct the article if any. Thanks. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 23:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

:I think that might actually be an Enfield No.2 going by the caliber... I'll have to watch the episode again.

:: I see. NCIS refers to it as a Webley. But they can be wrong. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 05:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm just a bit ticked off that the Royal Marine Major claims to keep one in his flat in London. You know, what with private ownership of handguns being all but illegal in Britain. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
: Oh Go bark at the moon.--[[User:SAMBAMA|SAMBAMA]] 17:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Antique firearm collectors in the United Kingdom ARE allowed to buy and sell pieces for their collections. Having said that, i'm not very familiar with webley revolvers. Are they old enough to be considered 'antique'?--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 17:41, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== editing page ==

In order to edit the page, you need to be a registered user. If you are not, you can make recommendations for changes on this discussion page. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 05:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Forend isn't a word, and as far as I know lights are always mounted fore, not hind. I recommend a wholesale removal of the word forend without replacement.

== Kahr P9/K9 ==

The section on the Kahr P9 contains the statement: "The P9 is similar to the K9 but it has the +1 magazine." This is incorrect. The P9 and K9 are both 7+1 guns in stock configuration and their magazines are interchangeable. The P9 has a polymer frame and the K9 has a stainless steel frame. The P9 can be seen on Kahr's website here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-P9.asp], and the K9 can be seen here: [http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K9.asp]. You can see both come standard with a 7 round magazine.

==Borin's SIG in "Ships in the Night"==
The subcompact SIG that CGIS Special Agent Abigail Borin had in her purse looked like either a Stainless Steel SIG P230 or a Stainless Steel SIG P232. Can anyone make a positive ID? Add a screencap, too, when you make the ID.--[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 18:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

==Gibbs' Suppressed Gun in "Judgment Day" Flashback==
I believe that the suppressed gun that Gibbs used to assassinate Anatoli Zukov in the flashback in Judgment Day Part 1 & 2 and again in a flashback in Enemies Domestic was a suppressed SIG Sauer P228.
P.S. When Gibbs shot Zukov, he fired three shots. Two into Zukov's chest and one in his head. Execution-style. Please note the same execution style shooting in Brothers In Arms. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC) I would try to get a screencap, but I do not have any of the NCIS seasons on DVD. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Was that back when he was in Paris with Jen? If so, I think it would be pretty hard to identify due to the effects they use in flashback scenes.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
::Not if you have a keen eye for detail, like me. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 16:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::It would make sense to use a P228, since it is their duty pistol. --[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 19:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::But I honestly do not think that there are any SIG Sauer P228's that are made to accept a suppressor. At least, none that I know of. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 21:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm sure that there are threaded barrels availiable for the P228. Probably not as much now, since the P228 isn't in production anymore :( but back when that scene took place I'm sure they were availiable.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 21:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::These were the first two results when I used Yahoo! Search for threaded barrels for the SIG Sauer P228.
::::::http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-p229-replacement-barrel-9mm-threaded.html
::::::http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/ShowProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=29&productid=311

:::::::::It doesn't matter if there are externally threaded barrels available for the P228; any movie pistol can take a suppressor because the barrel has to be threaded internally in order to accept the blank-firing adapter (BFA). Fake suppressors can be added simply by using an attachment that screws into the barrel's internal threading after the blank conversion has been done. This is why you routinely see characters in movies screwing suppressors onto pistols that do not have externally threaded barrels. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 11:00, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== Henry Rifle in Season 6 "South by Southwest" ==

Just saw this episode on TV and the Henry rifle is mis-classified as a Winchester Model 1873. The two are very close in construction, but the rifle referred to as "the Henry" from the show is indeed a Henry 30-30. You have to look close during the show but the rifle Gibbs uses has an Octagon barrel which is only used in Henry rifles.

== Unknown MG found by Malachi ==

I think this thing might be an M240, judging by the heat shield. Still not sure why it's got an EoTech on it, though. [[User:Raven|Raven]] 06:56, 9 March 2011 (MSK)

== Tony's Gun in Baltimore ==

I of course don't have screen caps and maybe somebody out there already does...
The gun Tony carried while working for Baltimore P.D. looks to be a Colt Commander or the like. Black grips, probably not full 5-inch barrel, and possible novak rear sight. Just wondering if Anybody else caught that. [[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]
::I definitely agree it is a 1911 variant with novak sights, but I think it did have a full length barrel. I could be wrong though UPDATE: Just got around to looking at it again, definite novak sights and no slant in the slide serrations (none in the front).User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:45, 6 May 2011 (CDT)

The page says its a Gold Cup National Match but i dont think it looks anything like it. Maybe a customized Series 70? -Missy

== Frank's SW1911==
In "Pyramid" when we get the shot of Franks' SW1911, the slide reads SW1911'''PD''', and there are no rails on the frame. Doesn't the only full-length barrel SW1911PD have rails? I couldn't find a 5" barrel PD with no rails.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:39, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

== DVD Cover ==

Do you think we should update the DVD Cover pictures to the latest (season 8)? Here it is to decide if you like it or not.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:52, 12 August 2011 (CDT)
[[Image:NCISDVDCoverSeason8.jpg|thumb|none|250px|NCIS- Season 8 (2010-2011)]]

== 9x03 "The Penelope Papers" ==

In the latest episode - 9x03, ''The Penelope Papers'' - there was something described as a Vietnam-era prototype carbon-fibre pistol. Is this an actual gun, or was it made up? The microchips in the caterpillar (self-replicating, no less) were dreadfully fake, but in a world that includes the gyrojet and the Krummlauf... well, I wouldn't put anything past wartime weapons tech.

So, anyone have any ideas? Fictional prop, or little-known prototype? [[User:Awmperry|Awmperry]] 12:47, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

: Probably a prop from actual pistols. Not sure if we should put it up. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 20:55, 12 October 2011 (CDT)

::I think we should, it was a pistol after all and this site usually adds weapons even if they are mocked up. Looked like a CZ variant to me.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 06:47, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:NCIS-BLACKHAND.jpg|thumb|500px|none|The "Black Hand". --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 09:38, 13 October 2011 (CDT)]]

Hmmmm... could be a mocked up HK45 or Mk 23, but I honestly have NO ideas--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 15:07, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

: Leaning on the former there mate. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 19:56, 13 October 2011 (CDT)
:: Grip definitely looks more HK45-ish. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 03:33, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
::: It is an IMI / IWI SP-21 Barak pistol. [[User:SgtRonin|SgtRonin]] 05:36, 06 November 2011 (CDT)

==9x04 "Enemy on the Hill"==

Got the photo of the two snipers. One of them's an AW rifle. I'm not on the other rifle. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 01:57, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

==Splitting the article to seasons==

Some of the long articles have been like 24 and Ultimate Force so far with Hawaii Five-0 following it. [[User:Ominae|Ominae]] 00:39, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

It's going to be a little tougher since this show is already in its 9th season. It didn't seem that they used a lot of different weapons each season like Hawaii Five-0. The agents all still use the SIG and they don't go on a lot of raids using more than their sidearms. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 01:45, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ugh, what is this, season-splitting week? First H-50 which I can understand, but now NCIS? It doesn't really need it, does it?--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 03:28, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

:[[Stargate: SG1]] got season split despite mostly using the same weapons from season to season. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 06:09, 22 October 2011 (CDT)

== Additional Screenshots ==

[[Image:NCIS 005.JPG|thumb|none|500px|In the Season 2 episode "Chained", Gibbs pulls his P228.]]
[[Image:NCIS 007.JPG|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo with his P228 in the Season 3 episode "Bait".]]
[[Image:NCIS 008.JPG|thumb|none|500px|Ziva David ([[Cote de Pablo]]) draws her P228 in Season 3's "Ravenous".]]
[[Image:NCISS3 001.jpg|thumb|none|500px|DiNozzo ([[Michael Weatherly]]) with his P228 in Season 3's "Switch".]]
[[File:NCIS Tony shooting range.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Tony fires his P228 in a shooting range in the first episode of Season 9's "Nature of the Beast".]]

Talk:True Grit (2010)

2011-11-19T09:11:27Z

StarSummers: /* "Rooster" Cogburn charge */

== A remake? ==

I know that the original ''[[True Grit]]'' was made 42 years ago and for many movie-goers it might as well have been made 100 years ago, but still that's pretty gutsy. Rooster Cogburn was the role that got [[John Wayne]] his Oscar and the original movie is a classic. However I will probably go and see this one whne it comes out at Christmas. I like [[Jeff Bridges]] and the Coen Brothers. Change of pace for them as well. Well somewhat. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

They're both based on a novel by Charles Portis. The Coen's version is apparently closer to the book than the 1969 film is.--[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]]

The Coen Brothers version looks like it's going to be a lot darker and grittier than the other one. It looks badass. -[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Those that have read the book know that it also has a good deal of humor, thanks to the first person narration of Mattie Ross. I hope and trust the Coens to include that aspect as well, though not in a voice-over.
-[[User:Blokhed|Blokhed]] 29 September 2010

I'm glad that Josh Brolin is in this. It'll make up for his piece-of-crap ''Jonah Hex'' movie. --[[User:Swordfish941|Swordfish941]] 15:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Well I watched it last night. It's pretty good. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 15:24, 11 June 2011 (CDT)

==Unknown Winchester==

Rooster is also seen firing a Winchester at one point in the trailer, though I can't discern which model.

:It looks like a Model 1873, or possibly an 1876. I say it could be an 1876 because of the rather large bore diameter. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

[[Image:tg-winchester-rooster.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rooster takes aim with his Winchester.]]
[[Image:TG 01.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:TG 02.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

=="Rooster" Cogburn charge==

"Rooster" Cogburn could be using his Single Action Army and Mattie Ross Colt Dragoon because it looks like only the gun in his left has a loading lever

nevermind in one of the TV spot trailers is shows there there both Colt navy or Colt Dragoon, it hard to tell

-- I just saw the movie, and can confirm that he uses his two 1851 Navys, contrary to my earlier identification of one Navy and one Dragoon. In fact he never handles Mattie's Dragoon apart from the beginning. -- Blokhed 12/26/10

The revolvers Rooster uses in making the charge are both 2nd model Colt Dragoons. He carries them in pommel holsters on the forks of his saddle. They are from the description in the Portis novel. They are the same model as Mattie's pistol. the reference to "Navy sixes" was an error in dialogue. Rooster carries a 7 1/2" Colt "Peacemaker" in a belt holster as described in the novel.

During the Corn Bread Shoot, when the Dragoon is seen in his hand, i believe it was meant to stand in for one of his 1851 Navies. He empties his SAA, when retrieving more corn bread, the holsters on his saddle is only holding one of his Navies. http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-04h01m39s156.png Note here, the near side holster is clearly holding a pistol while here, http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-03h58m43s23.png the holster is now clearly empty. The scene between these two is the clear shot of the Dragoon in his hands. -Missy

== How does he fire right handed? ==

Hes blind in his right eye yet he fires long guns right handed, how could he be accurate without seeing the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Which hand you use does not matter, eye dominance does. For example, my father shoots right handed while is left eye dominant. - Jeff

You don't get it, he can't SEE out of his right eye, how can he aim if he can not SEE the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:54, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

you just tilt you head so you left eye is lined up with the sights.

Yeah, note the first picture above, his head is tilted far enough to use his left eye. (Im also right handed and left eye dominant.)

== The rope around the Henry Rifle. ==

I think the rope Brolin's character uses as a carrying strap should be mentioned because i just saw the film in theaters and the 3 other people that were with me were confused with what that was. Don't ask.

== Sharps1874 or 1868? (moved from main movie page) ==

I have seen this carbine mis-identified ever since this movie came out. Apparently others are just repeating what someone else assumed. It was not an 1874 Sharps carbine, of which only 496 were made. He (like the real Texas rangers, see Durham’s “Taming the Nueces Strip”) is using an 1868 Sharps carbine conversion. .50-70….of which 31,000 were converted. from Percussion to Cartridge and distributed to troops and millitia’s and yes, texas rangers…was in use into the 80s.

If you want a replica of that gun, somebody makes an exact one of McNelly’s which is exactly like the one Matt Damon’s character is using.

bc

== Chaney's Henry and sling ==

I just corrected some of the description. In the book, the Henry was NOT stolen from Mattie's father; it is described as Chaney's rifle from the beginning. Also, the book makes special mention of the fact that he uses "a piece of cotton plow line" for a sling. "He could have taken an old piece of harness and made a nice leather strap for it. That would have been too much trouble." - Blokhed, 2/9/11

Is it just me or does the rope obstruck the sights?--[[User:Mattatack92|Mattatack92]] 23:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It does obstruck the sights, but we never actually see him fire from the shoulder in the movie.--[[User:Insight11|Insight11]] 20:43, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

(moved from main page)
[[Image:Tg-henry-2.jpg|thumb|none|300px|The poster shows [[Josh Brolin]] as Chaney with the Henry.]]

==Possible identification error==
In this image, it appears Cogburn is holding Mattie's Colt Dragoon. The barrel and frame appear thicker than on a Navy Colt, and the loading lever latch is smaller like a Dragoon, instead of covering the whole front of the loading lever like on a Navy. Also, the all around size of the revolver appears larger than a Navy. In the other shots it does appear he uses Navy Colts, but I think in this scene he may have used Mattie's gun to shoot the corn dodgers with.
[[File:TG10 002.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
- [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

Talk:True Grit (2010)

2011-11-19T09:10:05Z

StarSummers: /* "Rooster" Cogburn charge */

== A remake? ==

I know that the original ''[[True Grit]]'' was made 42 years ago and for many movie-goers it might as well have been made 100 years ago, but still that's pretty gutsy. Rooster Cogburn was the role that got [[John Wayne]] his Oscar and the original movie is a classic. However I will probably go and see this one whne it comes out at Christmas. I like [[Jeff Bridges]] and the Coen Brothers. Change of pace for them as well. Well somewhat. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

They're both based on a novel by Charles Portis. The Coen's version is apparently closer to the book than the 1969 film is.--[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]]

The Coen Brothers version looks like it's going to be a lot darker and grittier than the other one. It looks badass. -[[User:humanzie3|humanzie3]]

Those that have read the book know that it also has a good deal of humor, thanks to the first person narration of Mattie Ross. I hope and trust the Coens to include that aspect as well, though not in a voice-over.
-[[User:Blokhed|Blokhed]] 29 September 2010

I'm glad that Josh Brolin is in this. It'll make up for his piece-of-crap ''Jonah Hex'' movie. --[[User:Swordfish941|Swordfish941]] 15:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Well I watched it last night. It's pretty good. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 15:24, 11 June 2011 (CDT)

==Unknown Winchester==

Rooster is also seen firing a Winchester at one point in the trailer, though I can't discern which model.

:It looks like a Model 1873, or possibly an 1876. I say it could be an 1876 because of the rather large bore diameter. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

[[Image:tg-winchester-rooster.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rooster takes aim with his Winchester.]]
[[Image:TG 01.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:TG 02.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

=="Rooster" Cogburn charge==

"Rooster" Cogburn could be using his Single Action Army and Mattie Ross Colt Dragoon because it looks like only the gun in his left has a loading lever

nevermind in one of the TV spot trailers is shows there there both Colt navy or Colt Dragoon, it hard to tell

-- I just saw the movie, and can confirm that he uses his two 1851 Navys, contrary to my earlier identification of one Navy and one Dragoon. In fact he never handles Mattie's Dragoon apart from the beginning. -- Blokhed 12/26/10

The revolvers Rooster uses in making the charge are both 2nd model Colt Dragoons. He carries them in pommel holsters on the forks of his saddle. They are from the description in the Portis novel. They are the same model as Mattie's pistol. the reference to "Navy sixes" was an error in dialogue. Rooster carries a 7 1/2" Colt "Peacemaker" in a belt holster as described in the novel.

During the Corn Bread Shoot, when the Dragoon is seen in his hand, i believe it was meant to stand in for one of his 1851 Navies. He empties his SAA, when retrieving more corn bread, the holsters on his saddle is only holding one of his Navies.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-04h01m39s156.png Note here, the near side holster is clearly holding a pistol while here, http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/Hitokiri_Gensai/vlcsnap-2011-11-19-03h58m43s23.png the holster is now clearly empty. The scene between these two is the clear shot of the Dragoon in his hands. -Missy

== How does he fire right handed? ==

Hes blind in his right eye yet he fires long guns right handed, how could he be accurate without seeing the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Which hand you use does not matter, eye dominance does. For example, my father shoots right handed while is left eye dominant. - Jeff

You don't get it, he can't SEE out of his right eye, how can he aim if he can not SEE the sights?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:54, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

you just tilt you head so you left eye is lined up with the sights.

Yeah, note the first picture above, his head is tilted far enough to use his left eye. (Im also right handed and left eye dominant.)

== The rope around the Henry Rifle. ==

I think the rope Brolin's character uses as a carrying strap should be mentioned because i just saw the film in theaters and the 3 other people that were with me were confused with what that was. Don't ask.

== Sharps1874 or 1868? (moved from main movie page) ==

I have seen this carbine mis-identified ever since this movie came out. Apparently others are just repeating what someone else assumed. It was not an 1874 Sharps carbine, of which only 496 were made. He (like the real Texas rangers, see Durham’s “Taming the Nueces Strip”) is using an 1868 Sharps carbine conversion. .50-70….of which 31,000 were converted. from Percussion to Cartridge and distributed to troops and millitia’s and yes, texas rangers…was in use into the 80s.

If you want a replica of that gun, somebody makes an exact one of McNelly’s which is exactly like the one Matt Damon’s character is using.

bc

== Chaney's Henry and sling ==

I just corrected some of the description. In the book, the Henry was NOT stolen from Mattie's father; it is described as Chaney's rifle from the beginning. Also, the book makes special mention of the fact that he uses "a piece of cotton plow line" for a sling. "He could have taken an old piece of harness and made a nice leather strap for it. That would have been too much trouble." - Blokhed, 2/9/11

Is it just me or does the rope obstruck the sights?--[[User:Mattatack92|Mattatack92]] 23:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It does obstruck the sights, but we never actually see him fire from the shoulder in the movie.--[[User:Insight11|Insight11]] 20:43, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

(moved from main page)
[[Image:Tg-henry-2.jpg|thumb|none|300px|The poster shows [[Josh Brolin]] as Chaney with the Henry.]]

==Possible identification error==
In this image, it appears Cogburn is holding Mattie's Colt Dragoon. The barrel and frame appear thicker than on a Navy Colt, and the loading lever latch is smaller like a Dragoon, instead of covering the whole front of the loading lever like on a Navy. Also, the all around size of the revolver appears larger than a Navy. In the other shots it does appear he uses Navy Colts, but I think in this scene he may have used Mattie's gun to shoot the corn dodgers with.
[[File:TG10 002.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
- [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]