Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games - User contributions [en]

Star Wars

2013-07-23T05:35:10Z

Researcher: Undo revision 685379 by Zackmann08 (talk) Canon designation.

Throughout the six films of the '''''Star Wars''''' saga, creator George Lucas was determined that the universe he envisioned would have a "lived-in" look to it. Thus, the many weapons seen in the saga are in fact visually modified or based upon real-world weapons. '''Note: This page encompasses all six films of the ''Star Wars'' saga.'''

The following lists the real-world firearms that were visually modified for use in the six films of the ''Star Wars'' saga:

[[Image:StarwarsMovieposter.jpg|thumb|600px|right|The Star Wars Saga (1977-2005)]]

__TOC__ 

=Original Trilogy (Episodes IV, V, and VI)=
==Vostok Margolin .22LR target pistol==

In the early scenes of ''A New Hope'' and in a few scenes in ''Return of the Jedi'', Princess Leia ([[Carrie Fisher]]) can be seen with a Defender Sporting Blaster, actually a Vostok Margolin .22 LR Target Pistol, with some muzzle attachment fitted. Among other details, the ''Return of the Jedi'' version lacks the commercially available compensator that the ''A New Hope'' prop had.
[[Image:SWVM22a.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SWVM22b.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SWVM22.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SW 07.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Leia with the Vostok Margolin pistol before shooting a stormtrooper with it in ''A New Hope''.]]
[[Image:SW-Vostokpistol.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A close up of Leia's Vostok Margolin pistol in ''Return of the Jedi.'' Note that the muzzle attachment has been removed, along with a few other differences in its design.]]

==BlasTech E-11 blaster rifle (Sterling L2A3)==

Standard issue blaster rifle of the Imperial Stormtroopers. The E-11 blaster rifle props were built from the British-made [[Sterling SMG | Sterling L2A3]] submachine gun. Numerous main characters, including Princess Leia, Luke Skywalker ([[Mark Hamill]]), and Han Solo ([[Harrison Ford]]) use the weapon. Lando Calrissian ([[Billy Dee Williams]]) also uses an E-11 blaster in ''The Empire Strikes Back''. Some details differ between the three movies, most notably the method of scope attachment and battery pack beside it (or lack thereof).

A revealing mistake is that spent casings can be seen ejecting from this "blaster" rifle. It is most noticeable in the bridge swing scene of ''A New Hope'' and Lando firing at Stormtroopers in ''The Empire Strikes Back''. Rather strangely, ''Return of the Jedi'' made no use of blanks with this weapon.

[[Image:SterlingSMG.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sterling Submachine Gun - 9mm]]
[[Image:SWE11br.jpg|thumb|none|500px|BlasTech E-11 blaster rifle. Standard-issue blaster rifle of the Imperial Stormtroopers]]
[[Image:Star Wars-Sterling2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Stormtroopers fire their E-11 blaster rifles at the Rebels on the ship Tantive IV in ''A New Hope.'']]
[[Image:StarWars-Sterling3.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Princess Leia fires an E-11 Blaster. Note a spent shell casing is visible when she fires (circled in red).]]
[[Image:Starwars-Sterling4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Han Solo fires his E-11 blaster rifle at Stormtroopers while trapped in the Death Star.]]
[[Image:Starwars-Sterling5.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Luke Skywalker fires his E-11 blaster rifle while stuck on a bridge in the Death Star.]]
[[Image:STarWars-Sterling.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A stormtrooper with a BlasTech E-11 during the arrest of Rebel forces in ''Return of the Jedi.'']]
[[Image:Starwars-Sterling6.jpg|thumb|none|600px|"Yeeeh ha ha!" An Ewok holds a captured E-11 blaster rifle while cheering in victory during the Battle of Endor.]]

==BlasTech DH-17 Blaster Pistol==

First seen in ''A New Hope'' used by Rebel troops against Stormtroopers on the blockade runner ''Tantive IV''. Later seen carried by guards and officers on the Death Star. These were nonfunctional props with the receiver and pistol grip based on casts from a Sterling SMG. Consequently, the muzzle flashes in the first scene were added in post-production. There is an interesting continuity error where a couple of guards start off carrying this weapon but then switch to the E-11, firing it one handed like a pistol no less. This is perhaps because they looked similar enough and blanks provided a better reference point for adding blaster effects later.

In ''The Empire Strike Back'', it is the weapon of a few Rebel soldiers on Hoth and a couple of guards on Darth Vader's Super Star Destroyer. This time around, they were built from an actual Sterling SMG rather than a cast and have a more realistic scope attached. It is then curious why none of the props are seen firing blanks and the weapon has far less screen time than in the previous film.
[[Image:ANH DH-17.jpg|thumb|none|500px|As seen in ''A New Hope''.]]
[[Image:SWE11br2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|As seen in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DH-171.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A group of Rebels with BlasTech DH-17s. Note the Singlepoint OEG (Occluded Eye Gunsight) attached to the weapon.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DH-172.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rebel troops open fire on Stormtroopers invading ''Tantive IV''.]]

==BlasTech A280 and A295 blaster rifles==

Standard issue blaster rifle of the Rebel Alliance ground forces in both ''The Empire Strikes Back'' and ''Return of the Jedi''. Both the A280 and A295 blaster rifle props were CAST FROM replicas similar to (built from) both the World War 2-era German [[Sturmgewehr 44]] (''The Empire Strikes Back'') and from the [[M16]] series rifles (''Return of the Jedi'').

[[Image:SWBTA280.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:A280 blaster rifle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:StarWars-SWBTA280.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A line of Rebel Hoth forces in the back fire their A295 blaster rifles at the Imperial walkers in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:StarWars-SWBTA2802.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A close up of a Rebel's A295 blaster rifle in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:Starwars-A295.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rebel forces on Endor aim their A280 blaster rifles at a lone scout trooper.]]

==DLT-19 heavy blaster rifle (MG34)==

Standard issue heavy blaster of the Imperial Stormtroopers. The DLT-19s were nothing more than World War II German [[MG34]] general purpose machine guns with little to no modifications to its external appearance.
[[Image:mg-34.jpg|thumb|none|500px|MG34 7.92x57mm Mauser with 75-round ammo drum]]
[[Image:SWSTBR2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|DLT-19 Heavy Blaster]]
[[Image:SWSTBR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Sandtrooper officer on the left carries the DLT-19 heavy blaster rifle (MG34).]]
[[Image:SW 04.jpg|thumb|none|600px|One of the stormtroopers investigating the Millennium Falcon carrying the DLT-19 heavy blaster rifle.]]
[[Image:SW-DLT-19.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Chewbacca fires his DLT-19 at the Death Star's security alarms.]]

== T-21 Light Repeating Blaster (Lewis Machine Gun)==
The heavy blaster seen carried by the Sandtrooper Officer is a modified British Lewis light machine gun.
[[Image:Lewis gun.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Lewis gun .303]]
[[Image:T-21blasterifle.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The T-21 blaster rifle as seen in Star Wars.]]
[[Image:SWSTBR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Sandtrooper officer in the middle carries the T-21 Blaster (Lewis Machine Gun sans drum magazine).]]

== RT-97C heavy blaster rifle (MG15 machine gun) ==
Imperial Sandtroopers can be seen carrying RT-97C heavy blaster rifles while on patrol on Tatooine. The RT-97C heavy blaster rifle prop is in fact a modified German [[MG15 machine gun]].
[[Image:MG15.jpg|thumb|none|500px|MG15 machine gun 7.92x57mm Mauser]]

==DL-44 Blastech blaster pistol==
The DL-44 blaster pistol was the blaster of choice for Han Solo ([[Harrison Ford]]) and the Rebel Alliance. The weapon is seen wielded by Luke Skywalker ([[Mark Hamill]]) throughout ''The Empire Strikes Back''. Possibly the best known duplicate of a real gun, the DL-44 blaster pistol prop was built from a 9mm [[Mauser C96]] handgun, sometimes with a sniper scope. The modifications are obviously added on to the exterior, though the distinct "broomhandle" grips are still wooden.
[[Image:C96Pistol.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Pre-War dated Mauser C96 "Broomhandle" Commercial Version - 7.63x25mm Mauser. Note the rear tangent sight; in something of a display of wishful thinking, the C96's sight is adjustable for ranges up to 1000 metres.]]
[[Image:SWHanB.jpg|thumb|none|500px|The Star Wars version of the pistol.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DL-44.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Han Solo with his DL-44 blaster pistol in ''Return Of The Jedi.'' In the background is Leia with her Vostok Margolin .22LR target pistol.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DL-442.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Luke gets surprised by Yoda's appearance and draws out his DL-44 blaster on him in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DL-441.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Han Solo draws his scoped DL-44 blaster in ''A New Hope.'' Note the coiled frame on the pistol.]]

==Ion blaster==
The Ion blaster utilized by the Jawa who shot R2-D2 in ''A New Hope'' was built from a cut-down British [[SMLE|Lee-Enfield No.1 MkIII*]] series bolt-action rifle with the grenade launcher cup attached to the shortened barrel.

[[Image:SMLE.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk.III* - .303 British. This was the main battle rifle of British and Commonwealth forces during the First World War, introduced in 1907 it has seen action throughout the 20th century.]]
[[Image:SWJawab.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:StarWars-jawablaster0.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Jawa aims the Jawa blaster at R2-D2.]]
[[Image:StarWars-jawablaster1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Jawa fires the Jawa blaster, disabling R2-D2.]]
[[Image:StarWars-jawablaster2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Jawa with the Jawa blaster as he calls out his fellow Jawas.]]

== Boba Fett's EE-3 Blaster Carbine==
The prop Boba Fett uses in the films is a modified Webley & Scott No.1 Mark 1 Flare Gun. In ''The Empire Strikes Back'' the barrel was rather simple looking. In ''Return of the Jedi'' it has a more distinctive barrel and the scope is actually mounted backwards to where it was before!
[[File:Webley & Scott Number 1 Mark I Flare Pistol.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Webley & Scott No.1 Mark 1 Flare Gun - 37mm]]
[[Image:SWBobafett.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:BobaFett-StarWars.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Boba Fett with his EE-3 blaster carbine while guarding Jabba the Hutt in ''Return Of The Jedi''.]]
[[Image:BobaFett-StarWars2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Boba Fett aims his EE-3 blaster carbine at Luke during the battle on Jabba's ship before the carbine gets cut in half by Luke.]]

== Ponda Baba's SE-14C blaster pistol ==
The SE-14C blaster pistol is carried by Dr. Evazan and, with scope removed, his crime partner Ponda Baba in ''A New Hope''. They draw these weapons after provoking a fight with Luke Skywalker at the Mos Eisley cantina. It was built from a Swiss Rexim-Favor Mk5 submachine gun with the stock, barrel, and magazine removed and has a double sniper scope attached.
[[File:Reximfavor mk5.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Rexim-Favor Mk5 - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:SE14Cblaster-Starwars.jpg|thumb|none|400px|The SE-14C, a common weapon for Mos Eisley gangsters according to Wookieepedia.]]
[[Image:StarWars-SE-14C.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Dr. Evazan (out of frame) points his SE-14C blaster pistol at Obi-Wan.]]
[[Image:StarWars-SE-14C2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The SE-14C blaster pistol on the ground with Ponda Baba's arm sliced off by Obi Wan's lightsaber.]]

==Orrimaarko's (Prune Face) Dressellian projectile rifle (Mauser Kar98k)==
An unmodified [[Karabiner 98k|Mauser Kar98k]] bolt-action rifle was seen in the hands of the character Orrimaarko a.k.a. "Prune Face" in promotional photos for ''Return Of The Jedi''.
[[Image:Karabiner-98K.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Karabiner 98k - German manufacture 1937 date - 7.92x57mm Mauser]]

=Prequel Trilogy (Episodes I, II, and III)=
==S-5 Blaster Pistol==
In Episode I ''The Phantom Menace'', the Naboo troops used this weapon that was based around a Walther LP300 Model Air Gun.
[[Image:SWNaboo.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Feinwerkbau C55 Model Air Gun]]
[[Image:Starwars-Naboopistol.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Naboo troops with Naboo blasters.]]
[[Image:Starwars-Naboopistol2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Captain Panaka carries a Naboo blaster as Padme ([[Natalie Portman]]) fires a Naboo pistol.]]

==CR-2 Blaster==
Also seen in ''The Phantom Menace'' is the Naboo CR-2 Blaster, which appears to be based off of the [[Calico#Calico M950/950A|Calico M950A]].
[[Image:CR-23.jpg|400px|thumb|none|The Naboo blaster which is called, according to the Star Wars wiki, the CR-2 blaster. The Calico M950A base is readily apparent here]]
[[Image:CR-2-StarWars.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A Naboo trooper with a CR-2 blaster (circled in red) while riding on a Naboo speeder.]]
[[Image:CR-2blaster-StarWars2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A Naboo trooper behind Anakin Skywalker with a CR-2 blaster.]]

==DC-15A Heavy Plasma Rifle==
Manufactured by BlasTech Industries, the DC-15-series was a range of plasma weapons used by the Republic clone troopers during the Clone Wars in Episode II ''Attack of the Clones'' and Episode III ''Revenge of the Sith''. Although entirely computer-generated (as are all the Clone Troopers, no costumes were manufactured,) its design is based on parts from the German [[MG34]] making up the rear half, as well as much of the [[Sterling SMG|Sterling L2A3]] turned upside-down for the front.
[[Image:DC-15a Blaster Rifle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Yoda accompanies a squad of clone troopers with DC-15A heavy blaster rifles in ''Attack of the Clones.'']]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A clone trooper fires his DC-15A heavy blaster rifle at battle droids during the rescue of Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Padme Amidala and the Jedi.]]
[[Image:DC-15A-Starwars3.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A group of clone troopers with DC-15A heavy blaster rifles while advancing behind Mace Windu ([[Samuel L. Jackson]]).]]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Swamp clone troopers fire on the Trade Federation droid army in ''Revenge of the Sith.'']]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars5.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Galactic Marines aim their DC-15A heavy blaster rifles at Ki-Adi-Mundi after Order 66 was issued.]]

==DC-15S Compact Plasma Rifle==
Like the M16 has the M4, the DC-15A has the DC-15S. It is basically a compacted version (a "carbine" if you will) of the DC-15, lacking some of the range but making up for it in ease of use and portability. It is usually seen in the hands of officers, most notably Commander Bacara when he and the Galactic Marines kill Ki-Adi-Mundi, as well as in the hands of many regular clone troopers (the design of the DC-15S carbine would later influence the design and development of the E-11 blaster rifle used by the Imperial Stormtroopers in Episodes IV-VI). As this weapon is computer generated, what it is based upon (if any) is currently unknown; its similarity to the E-11 suggests it was based on the [[Sterling SMG|Sterling L2A3]] as well.
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars5.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Commander Bacara (The one in the middle) has a DC-15S.]]

[[Category: Movie]]
[[Category: Science-Fiction]]
[[Category:War]]
[[Category:National Film Registry]]

Star Wars

2013-04-20T03:10:50Z

Researcher: /* T-21 Blaster Rifle (Lewis Machine Gun) */

Throughout the six films of the '''''Star Wars''''' saga, creator George Lucas was determined that the universe he envisioned would have a "lived-in" look to it. Thus, the many weapons seen in the saga are in fact visually modified or based upon real-world weapons. '''Note: This page encompasses all six films of the ''Star Wars'' saga.'''

The following lists the real-world firearms that were visually modified for use in the six films of the ''Star Wars'' saga:

[[Image:StarwarsMovieposter.jpg|thumb|600px|right|The Star Wars Saga (1977-2005)]]

__TOC__ 

=Original Trilogy (Episodes IV, V, and VI)=
==Vostok Margolin .22LR target pistol==

In the early scenes of ''A New Hope'' and in a few scenes in ''Return of the Jedi'', Princess Leia ([[Carrie Fisher]]) can be seen with a Defender Sporting Blaster, actually a Vostok Margolin .22 LR Target Pistol, with some muzzle attachment fitted. Among other details, the ''Return of the Jedi'' version lacks the commercially available compensator that the ''A New Hope'' prop had.
[[Image:SWVM22a.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SWVM22b.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SWVM22.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:SW 07.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Leia with the Vostok Margolin pistol before shooting a stormtrooper with it in ''A New Hope''.]]
[[Image:SW-Vostokpistol.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A close up of Leia's Vostok Margolin pistol in ''Return of the Jedi.'' Note that the muzzle attachment has been removed, along with a few other differences in its design.]]

==BlasTech E-11 blaster rifle (Sterling L2A3)==

Standard issue blaster rifle of the Imperial Stormtroopers. The E-11 blaster rifle props were built from the British-made [[Sterling SMG | Sterling L2A3]] submachine gun. Numerous main characters, including Princess Leia, Luke Skywalker ([[Mark Hamill]]), and Han Solo ([[Harrison Ford]]) use the weapon. Lando Calrissian ([[Billy Dee Williams]]) also uses an E-11 blaster in ''The Empire Strikes Back''. Some details differ between the three movies, most notably the method of scope attachment and battery pack beside it (or lack thereof).

A revealing mistake is that spent casings can be seen ejecting from this "blaster" rifle. It is most noticeable in the bridge swing scene of ''A New Hope'' and Lando firing at Stormtroopers in ''The Empire Strikes Back''. Rather strangely, ''Return of the Jedi'' made no use of blanks with this weapon.

[[Image:SterlingSMG.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Sterling Submachine Gun - 9mm]]
[[Image:SWE11br.jpg|thumb|none|500px|BlasTech E-11 blaster rifle. Standard-issue blaster rifle of the Imperial Stormtroopers]]
[[Image:Star Wars-Sterling2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Stormtroopers fire their E-11 blaster rifles at the Rebels on the ship Tantive IV in ''A New Hope.'']]
[[Image:StarWars-Sterling3.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Princess Leia fires an E-11 Blaster. Note a spent shell casing is visible when she fires (circled in red).]]
[[Image:Starwars-Sterling4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Han Solo fires his E-11 blaster rifle at Stormtroopers while trapped in the Death Star.]]
[[Image:Starwars-Sterling5.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Luke Skywalker fires his E-11 blaster rifle while stuck on a bridge in the Death Star.]]
[[Image:STarWars-Sterling.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A stormtrooper with a BlasTech E-11 during the arrest of Rebel forces in ''Return of the Jedi.'']]
[[Image:Starwars-Sterling6.jpg|thumb|none|600px|"Yeeeh ha ha!" An Ewok holds a captured E-11 blaster rifle while cheering in victory during the Battle of Endor.]]

==BlasTech DH-17 Blaster Pistol==

First seen in ''A New Hope'' used by Rebel troops against Stormtroopers on the blockade runner ''Tantive IV''. Later seen carried by guards and officers on the Death Star. These were nonfunctional props with the receiver and pistol grip based on casts from a Sterling SMG. Consequently, the muzzle flashes in the first scene were added in post-production. There is an interesting continuity error where a couple of guards start off carrying this weapon but then switch to the E-11, firing it one handed like a pistol no less. This is perhaps because they looked similar enough and blanks provided a better reference point for adding blaster effects later.

In ''The Empire Strike Back'', it is the weapon of a few Rebel soldiers on Hoth and a couple of guards on Darth Vader's Super Star Destroyer. This time around, they were built from an actual Sterling SMG rather than a cast and have a more realistic scope attached. It is then curious why none of the props are seen firing blanks and the weapon has far less screen time than in the previous film.
[[Image:ANH DH-17.jpg|thumb|none|500px|As seen in ''A New Hope''.]]
[[Image:SWE11br2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|As seen in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DH-171.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A group of Rebels with BlasTech DH-17s.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DH-172.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rebel troops open fire on Stormtroopers invading ''Tantive IV''.]]

==BlasTech A280 and A295 blaster rifles==

Standard issue blaster rifle of the Rebel Alliance ground forces in both ''The Empire Strikes Back'' and ''Return of the Jedi''. Both the A280 and A295 blaster rifle props were CAST FROM replicas similar to (built from) both the World War 2-era German [[Sturmgewehr 44]] (''The Empire Strikes Back'') and from the [[M16]] series rifles (''Return of the Jedi'').

[[Image:SWBTA280.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:A280 blaster rifle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:StarWars-SWBTA280.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A line of Rebel Hoth forces in the back fire their A295 blaster rifles at the Imperial walkers in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:StarWars-SWBTA2802.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A close up of a Rebel's A295 blaster rifle in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:Starwars-A295.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Rebel forces on Endor aim their A280 blaster rifles at a lone scout trooper.]]

==DLT-19 heavy blaster rifle (MG34)==

Standard issue heavy blaster of the Imperial Stormtroopers. The DLT-19s were nothing more than World War II German [[MG34]] general purpose machine guns with little to no modifications to its external appearance.
[[Image:mg-34.jpg|thumb|none|500px|MG34 7.92x57mm Mauser with 75-round ammo drum]]
[[Image:SWSTBR2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|DLT-19 Heavy Blaster]]
[[Image:SWSTBR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Sandtrooper officer on the left carries the DLT-19 heavy blaster rifle (MG34).]]
[[Image:SW 04.jpg|thumb|none|600px|One of the stormtroopers investigating the Millennium Falcon carrying the DLT-19 heavy blaster rifle.]]
[[Image:SW-DLT-19.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Chewbacca fires his DLT-19 at the Death Star's security alarms.]]

== T-21 Light Repeating Blaster (Lewis Machine Gun)==
The heavy blaster seen carried by the Sandtrooper Officer is a modified British Lewis light machine gun.
[[Image:Lewis gun.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Lewis gun .303]]
[[Image:T-21blasterifle.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The T-21 blaster rifle as seen in Star Wars.]]
[[Image:SWSTBR.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Sandtrooper officer in the middle carries the T-21 Blaster (Lewis Machine Gun sans drum magazine).]]

== RT-97C heavy blaster rifle (MG15 machine gun) ==
Imperial Sandtroopers can be seen carrying RT-97C heavy blaster rifles while on patrol on Tatooine. The RT-97C heavy blaster rifle prop is in fact a modified German [[MG15 machine gun]].
[[Image:MG15.jpg|thumb|none|500px|MG15 machine gun 7.92x57mm Mauser]]

==DL-44 Blastech blaster pistol==
The DL-44 blaster pistol was the blaster of choice for Han Solo ([[Harrison Ford]]) and the Rebel Alliance. The weapon is seen wielded by Luke Skywalker ([[Mark Hamill]]) throughout ''The Empire Strikes Back''. Possibly the best known duplicate of a real gun, the DL-44 blaster pistol prop was built from a 9mm [[Mauser C96]] handgun, sometimes with a sniper scope. The modifications are obviously added on to the exterior, though the distinct "broomhandle" grips are still wooden.
[[Image:C96Pistol.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Pre-War dated Mauser C96 "Broomhandle" Commercial Version - 7.63x25mm Mauser. Note the rear tangent sight; in something of a display of wishful thinking, the C96's sight is adjustable for ranges up to 1000 metres.]]
[[Image:SWHanB.jpg|thumb|none|500px|The Star Wars version of the pistol.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DL-44.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Han Solo with his DL-44 blaster pistol in ''Return Of The Jedi.'' In the background is Leia with her Vostok Margolin .22LR target pistol.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DL-442.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Luke gets surprised by Yoda's appearance and draws out his DL-44 blaster on him in ''The Empire Strikes Back''.]]
[[Image:StarWars-DL-441.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Han Solo draws his scoped DL-44 blaster in ''A New Hope.'' Note the coiled frame on the pistol.]]

==Ion blaster==
The Ion blaster utilized by the Jawa who shot R2-D2 in ''A New Hope'' was built from a cut-down British [[SMLE|Lee-Enfield No.1 MkIII*]] series bolt-action rifle with the grenade launcher cup attached to the shortened barrel.

[[Image:SMLE.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk.III* - .303 British. This was the main battle rifle of British and Commonwealth forces during the First World War, introduced in 1907 it has seen action throughout the 20th century.]]
[[Image:SWJawab.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:StarWars-jawablaster0.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Jawa aims the Jawa blaster at R2-D2.]]
[[Image:StarWars-jawablaster1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Jawa fires the Jawa blaster, disabling R2-D2.]]
[[Image:StarWars-jawablaster2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Jawa with the Jawa blaster as he calls out his fellow Jawas.]]

== Boba Fett's EE-3 Blaster Carbine==
The prop Boba Fett uses in the films is a modified Webley & Scott No.1 Mark 1 Flare Gun. In ''The Empire Strikes Back'' the barrel was rather simple looking. In ''Return of the Jedi'' it has a more distinctive barrel and the scope is actually mounted backwards to where it was before!
[[File:Webley & Scott Number 1 Mark I Flare Pistol.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Webley & Scott No.1 Mark 1 Flare Gun - 37mm]]
[[Image:SWBobafett.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:BobaFett-StarWars.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Boba Fett with his EE-3 blaster carbine while guarding Jabba the Hutt in ''Return Of The Jedi''.]]
[[Image:BobaFett-StarWars2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Boba Fett aims his EE-3 blaster carbine at Luke during the battle on Jabba's ship before the carbine gets cut in half by Luke.]]

== Ponda Baba's SE-14C blaster pistol ==
The SE-14C blaster pistol is carried by Dr. Evazan and, with scope removed, his crime partner Ponda Baba in ''A New Hope''. They draw these weapons after provoking a fight with Luke Skywalker at the Mos Eisley cantina. It was built from a Swiss Rexim-Favor Mk5 submachine gun with the stock, barrel, and magazine removed and has a double sniper scope attached.
[[File:Reximfavor mk5.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Rexim-Favor Mk5 - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:SE14Cblaster-Starwars.jpg|thumb|none|400px|The SE-14C, a common weapon for Mos Eisley gangsters according to Wookieepedia.]]
[[Image:StarWars-SE-14C.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Dr. Evazan (out of frame) points his SE-14C blaster pistol at Obi-Wan.]]
[[Image:StarWars-SE-14C2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The SE-14C blaster pistol on the ground with Ponda Baba's arm sliced off by Obi Wan's lightsaber.]]

==Orrimaarko's (Prune Face) Dressellian projectile rifle (Mauser Kar98k)==
An unmodified [[Karabiner 98k|Mauser Kar98k]] bolt-action rifle was seen in the hands of the character Orrimaarko a.k.a. "Prune Face" in promotional photos for ''Return Of The Jedi''.
[[Image:Karabiner-98K.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Karabiner 98k - German manufacture 1937 date - 7.92x57mm Mauser]]

=Prequel Trilogy (Episodes I, II, and III)=
==S-5 Blaster Pistol==
In Episode I ''The Phantom Menace'', the Naboo troops used this weapon that was based around a Walther LP300 Model Air Gun.
[[Image:SWNaboo.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Feinwerkbau C55 Model Air Gun]]
[[Image:Starwars-Naboopistol.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Naboo troops with Naboo blasters.]]
[[Image:Starwars-Naboopistol2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Captain Panaka carries a Naboo blaster as Padme ([[Natalie Portman]]) fires a Naboo pistol.]]

==CR-2 Blaster==
Also seen in ''The Phantom Menace'' is the Naboo CR-2 Blaster, which appears to be based off of the [[Calico#Calico M950/950A|Calico M950A]].
[[Image:CR-23.jpg|400px|thumb|none|The Naboo blaster which is called, according to the Star Wars wiki, the CR-2 blaster. The Calico M950A base is readily apparent here]]
[[Image:CR-2-StarWars.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A Naboo trooper with a CR-2 blaster (circled in red) while riding on a Naboo speeder.]]
[[Image:CR-2blaster-StarWars2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A Naboo trooper behind Anakin Skywalker with a CR-2 blaster.]]

==DC-15A Heavy Plasma Rifle==
Manufactured by BlasTech Industries, the DC-15-series was a range of plasma weapons used by the Republic clone troopers during the Clone Wars in Episode II ''Attack of the Clones'' and Episode III ''Revenge of the Sith''. Although entirely computer-generated (as are all the Clone Troopers, no costumes were manufactured,) its design is based on parts from the German [[MG34]] making up the rear half, as well as much of the [[Sterling SMG|Sterling L2A3]] turned upside-down for the front.
[[Image:DC-15a Blaster Rifle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Yoda accompanies a squad of clone troopers with DC-15A heavy blaster rifles in ''Attack of the Clones.'']]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A clone trooper fires his DC-15A heavy blaster rifle at battle droids during the rescue of Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Padme Amidala and the Jedi.]]
[[Image:DC-15A-Starwars3.jpg|thumb|none|600px|A group of clone troopers with DC-15A heavy blaster rifles while advancing behind Mace Windu ([[Samuel L. Jackson]]).]]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Swamp clone troopers fire on the Trade Federation droid army in ''Revenge of the Sith.'']]
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars5.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Galactic Marines aim their DC-15A heavy blaster rifles at Ki-Adi-Mundi after Order 66 was issued.]]

==DC-15S Compact Plasma Rifle==
Like the M16 has the M4, the DC-15A has the DC-15S. It is basically a compacted version (a "carbine" if you will) of the DC-15, lacking some of the range but making up for it in ease of use and portability. It is usually seen in the hands of officers, most notably Commander Bacara when he and the Galactic Marines kill Ki-Adi-Mundi, as well as in the hands of many regular clone troopers (the design of the DC-15S carbine would later influence the design and development of the E-11 blaster rifle used by the Imperial Stormtroopers in Episodes IV-VI). As this weapon is computer generated, what it is based upon (if any) is currently unknown; its similarity to the E-11 suggests it was based on the [[Sterling SMG|Sterling L2A3]] as well.
[[Image:DC-15A-StarWars5.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Commander Bacara (The one in the middle) has a DC-15S.]]

[[Category: Movie]]
[[Category: Science-Fiction]]
[[Category:War]]

Talk:Heckler & Koch XM8

2012-12-26T10:07:14Z

Researcher: /* XM8 Rail Model */

==Reasons for failure?==

Supposedly this weapons system was to become the new standard rifle of the US army, but I'm at a loss as to why it was eventually cancelled. The "obvious answers" might be that "American weapons companies like having their stranglehold on equipping such a nice customer as the US army" or that "H&K didn't bid low enough" (as said by the old army truism "remember, all of our equipment was made by the lowest bidder"), but I think there's more to the story than either of those.

H&K's bid to make this "modular weapons system" adaptable to four battle field roles (standard carbine for standard infantry use, compact carbine for PDW use, automatic rifle with bipod and hi-capacity magazine for SAW-type use, and finally a designated marksman variant with a longer barrel and better optics) certainly sounds like a "hostile takeover" strategy of the corporate kind--was it possibly too ambitious and too threatening to corporate interested to have all those weapon types supplant all those individual weapons being used (and paid for) by the US armed forces? Asking everyone to "hand over your M4s, your M249 SAWs, your FN P90s, and your M14s--we've got something better than those which will do all 4 jobs!" definitely could cause some stocks to fall.

Finally, if the XM8 really is just the G36 in a different exterior, why didn't they make a more ambitious and less conventional design, possibly in a bullpup formation? The SA80 (also designed by H&K) had its hiccups early on but appears to be a reliable weapon today, and with the experience gained from its development and deployment I don't see why a better version could be made for the XM8 project. The ambidexterity problem could even be solved with a little ingenuity, kind of like how the FN-F2000 is ambidextrous not because it ejects down like the FN P90 does, but because it dribbles rather than spits spent casings.

I would like to see more of this rifle in movies and games, possibly even with more use of its "transformational capabilities" as well. Seeing a film character rapidly change his XM8 compact carbine variant to a DMR variant could be nice.

Any answers from those in the know would be appreciated. [[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

look like arming an army is more complected then it seems. Rex095

My take is it failed for a number of reasons. I am a bit of a fan of the XM8 but the biggest design flaw I see is that it lacks Picatinny rails. It only has the Picatinny Attachment Points for mounting of optics. The advantage to that is optics don't need to be zeroed quite as much, but in the real world that's useless because you can't put any existing optics on. Plus, no rails on the side or bottom, so no attachment of lasers (although I've heard the XM8 has an infrared laser built into the optic, feel free to correct me) and you can't attach the M203. While its reloading method is possibly the most ergonomic I've seen, it feeds from G36 mags, and the U.S. uses the STANAG magazine found in the M4/M16.

And yes, cost does have a huge effect to it. I've never seen the cost per unit for the XM8, but I can imagine that it can be pretty expensive. Also, the M16 platform has been in use for so long and it's been drilled so far into the heads of some people that they have trouble letting go of it or accepting that any other design completely different from it might work. Sorry, that was just personal opinion.

One last big malfunction it had is that the reciever melted during extended automatic fire. The sad part is that if HK had put more money into that I'm sure they could've solved it.

I think the biggest thing is just the fact that the U.S. military just doesn't like to change anything and they find no new need for a new rifle. Colt themselves said it took them over a decade to get an extractor spring changed on the M4. The M16/M4 is probably here to stay for a very very long time. [[User:Mandaloin|Mandaloin]] 09:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The production cost for an XM8 is about 400$... The cost for an M4 is 600$ and that of an M16 is 800-900$

:WHOA WHOA WHOA! That is NOT true, The company HAS to sell something to make money on, it costs I would estimate $200-$400 dollars for both the M16 and M4, the Military buys them at a cheaper price than the price we see on the shelves at the gunstore. The way HK does business I'm sure the XM8 would have sold for more to the military.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Weight and the LMG version were the official reasons for its cancelation. The receiver melting occurred when they were trying to reduce the weight of the weapon to around 4 lbs. Current test/prototype models have increased the weight and the problem has supposedly gone. The LMG aspect also caused issue as there was no easy way to swap barrels if the barrel overheated (though barrels overheating in and of itself was never an issue). Also it failed to improve over the M4/M16 100% in all aspects of weapons performance, which was a mandate put out by the government. One last thing was while most versions of the XM8 used the proprietary mounting system (the circles on the side of the gun), their were some concept models late in testing with traditional rails.

There is a better modular weapons system coming out anyway the Remington ACR.

It failed because, simply put, testing proved it wasn't what the Army wanted. New weapon systems aren't funded and fielded simply because they run a little cleaner. It would be a massive waste of money when you add up the costs (the new weapons themselves, new spare parts, new magazines, retraining of troops to know how it ticks... we're talking in the hundreds of billions of dollars here) and compare that to the negligible advantage it provides (it's got a piston and... wait, what else?). And switching to completely new weapon systems in the middle of two wars poses the real possibility of logistical complications (i.e., getting M16 magazines and spare M4 barrels when your entire unit has XM8s) rendering combat units utterly defenseless in hostile territory. It may look all space-age like a laser gun, but the DoD simply does not want or need it when the M4 does the job just as efficiently. Until some country decides to adopt it, it's going to remain ''dead''. If the big green Army wanted a gas piston so bad, M4s and M16s are easily converted with new upper receivers without the need for retraining. And not to mention the SCAR will eventually filter down into regular combat units as time goes on. I'm not saying there aren't better small arms out there, but the XM8 doesn't provide much of an advantage of the current issue M16/M4. And like is pointed out in the post above mine, the Remington ACR takes everything the XM8 is and throws the full modularity of the M4 into it. And please, people, '''sign your posts'''. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I could see the XM8 still being useful to small teams n' such, being able to swap out parts and magazines with your squadmates in the field no matter what role they play because they have the same base weapon as you could be a big advantage. But the ACR could probably do the same thing and it's supposedly better, but my point still stands. Good for small teams, bad for an entire military. I expect that we won't phase out the M4 or M16 until the next revolutionary change to the gun world. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 07:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Well the 416 is coming close to doing that, wouldn't you agree?
--[[Special:Contributions/67.86.148.125|67.86.148.125]] 15:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

*It's an AR-15 with a gas piston. I believe that specific "revolutionary" development has been done before quite a few times, starting in about 1969. To be exact, it's a gas system stolen wholesale from the AR-18. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 15:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to the 416 as a next revolutionary step in firearm design, I was trying to state that the HK416 is coming close to replacing the M16 family, at least some branches of the US military.
:The same can be said of the of the SCAR. It's already being used by the Rangers and Border Patrol. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 16:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I guess you're right. But that's the only way I could think of the XM8 being of any use to our military, but if the SCAR already has that role then it's pretty much worthless to us. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 18:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

:If the HK 416 is that much better, I don't understand why it scored lower than the XM8 in the "extreme dust environment" test. Still, the XM8 system had a lot of potential that could have been harnessed in its extra reliability and modularity. Changing the internals to accept STANAG magazines, and to be more heat resistant as well as using standard rail systems could be done relatively easily. I'm surprised that more "Private Military Contractors" or SF operators haven't picked up on this gun given its modularity and thus its ability to be reconfigured easily between the demands of different missions. Even if this gun disappears into history like the OICW did, it'd be nice to see it in more games and movies. It's a nice break from AKs and AR-15s. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 03:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The HK 416 scored lower because AR-15s weren't designed to take a piston; that's what the AR-18 was for. The main reason why the XM8 failed was because aside from reliability (which is still a debatable point, given that the US has been running DI M16s/M4s for decades without mass failure), the XM8 only really met par with M16/M4 effectiveness. When it comes down to it, you're still firing a 5.56mm NATO round out of a carbine, and that isn't worth phasing out so many M16/M4s that do the exact same thing. What I'd have liked to have seen from the "dust environment" test would be an HK G36A1 in the mix; for all we know, the XM8 was just an "updated" G36 that HK tried to sell to the US. The XM8 inherited its proprietary magazines and ambidextrous cocking handle from it, and who knows what else.

They've entered the XM8 into the Individual Carbine competition, and my guess is that it'll fail there too.

[[Special:Contributions/72.189.150.127|72.189.150.127]]AUA

I think there were heating issues with the XM8 during testings and they never resolved the problem. Also I've seen pics of the XM8 being fielded in Iraq but I don't think these guys were US military. They weren't dressed in any familiar uniforms. Maybe they were contractors. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:I recently discovered an article from the Army Times website that [http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/army_xm8_rifle_070531/ blames the Army bureaucracy] for the demise of the XM8. The pressure to open up the bids to competition probably came in part because FN didn't want their lucrative M249 contracts with the army to be superseded by the LMG form of the XM8, though I'm sure Colt was pretty ticked that H&K might be elbowing into its commercial territory too. Can anyone tell me just how (un)true this article is? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::Army Times isn't owned or affiliated with the ''actual'' US Army, so I'd take what they claim with a grain of sand. It's doubtful we'll ever know the ''concretely true'' reason for its failure, but it's a fact that the XM8 and M4 are pretty much on par in terms of effectiveness and that isn't going to justify buying a million new carbines that do the M4's job no better than the M4 already does. Besides, try attaching a vertical forgrip, ACOG, PEQ-15, and Surefire light to an XM8. You ''can't'', because none of those mods (mods which won't be going away anytime soon) are backwards compatible with PCAP and the gun's existing RDS is permanently attached. As a result, you have to buy from HK, in addition to the carbines themselves, all new accessories amounting to even more millions of dollars. People claim Colt has a stranglehold on the US military, adopting the XM8 would have been HK wrapping a noose around the US military's neck and putting their hand on the lever which opens the trapdoor beneath its feet. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:50, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

:Is the US Army collaborating so much with H&K really such a bad thing? Didn't the British government collaborate with them a lot way back in the 80s when the time came to refit their SA80 rifles? They also bought a controlling share during those days, too, so the British government called the shots then, not H&K. Nothing bad happened there with that close collaboration then. What problems do you foresee with a similar collaboration between the USA and H&K?

:I also remember two of the major "user feedback" points of the M4 Carbine were that they wanted a lighter and more reliable weapon. The XM8 delivered on both. The accessory problems you mentioned would not have been difficult to overcome. The PCAP system was supposedly developed because it kept the "zero" of accessories more securely (not really an issue with foregrips, but definitely an issue with laser pointers, grenade launchers, and scopes/non-iron sights), but the earlier XM8 prototypes did have conventional rail systems which could be reverted to if necessary. Subcontracting another company to build PCAP-compatible accessories could be another option. Further, changing the chambering to 6.8x43mm or the like shouldn't be too much of a problem (if it's done before mass production is approved) if a caliber change is deemed to be necessary. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 19:43, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

::I don't see how changing the caliber to 6.8 would be any improvement either when you consider that a number of piston ARs in that caliber are readily available already. In addition, FN has a forthcoming 6.8mm caliber conversion for the SCAR system and the ACR is easily converted to 6.8mm at the user level. All three platforms are pretty much on par with the XM8 in terms of effectiveness ''and'' are compatible with currently fielded accessories (why buy millions of new accessories when the currently fielded ones work just fine?). The weight decrease is negligible at best with the current weight of the carbine variant at 6.4 lbs [http://www.hksystems.com.au/xm8.htm] compared to 6.9 lbs for most loaded AR-type carbines. True, the ACR and SCAR-L are a bit heavier at around 7 lbs or so each, but both offer much more adaptability OTS than the XM8. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem as well with the XM8 is that the US Marine Corp has a serious problem about changing their rifles. If the XM8 was adopted by the Army, it would have taken a while before the Marines would abandon their M16s and M4s. They always seem to be the last guys to change their current weapons for the new thing. Also the SCAR's been having problems as well getting adopted [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:The Marines don't have the budget to blow on weapons programs left and right like the Army does, though. When the Corps adopts a new piece of kit, they need to get as much use out of it as possible because they don't have the cash to replace it right away should it fail. Think of how many combined billions of dollars the US Army sank into the Advanced Combat Rifle, XM29, XM8, XM307, and XM312 programs only for none to be adopted, then consider that now they're (A) set on upgrading all their M4s and (B) simultaneously running a competition for a completely new carbine to supersede the M4. Add to that the LSAT program and the XM25 airburst grenade launcher (the only so-far salvageable part of the OICW program). And that's just in the ''small arms'' category alone. Running development programs all willy-nilly like that would ''bankrupt'' the USMC. But I wouldn't say the Marines are ''always'' last to adopt the new stuff. The M16A2 and A4 were born within the USMC, after all. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 07:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
:::From what i heard from a friend of mine, and im not sure if this is true or not, and someone might have already said this, but the XM8 was too expensive too manufacture, which confuses me because i thought the rifle was made out of plastic. Can someone confirm that or is my friend full of s**t?--[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]
::::Just because a rifle is made from composite that doesn't by any means make it cheaper to manufacture. The bare rifle itself was more expensive than an M4, I believe in the order of twice the price. It was also actually heavier than the M4 despite having a 2" shorter barrel. However, the sighting unit included a sight, lasers and illuminators so with this fitted, an M4 with equivalent capability would have been heavier and more expensive. I think most of this has been said above, but have heard there were several reasons why it was dropped, including the cost issue, overheating problems in desert testing, lack of significant improvement over current weapons, non STANAG magazine, abandonment of MIL-STD-1913 rails and replacement with PCAP (Picatinny Combat Attachment Points) system and political problems with using a non American made weapon (mostly stirred up by Colt I believe). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 21:32, 3 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::"Political problems with using a non American made weapon" Most of the weapon used in the US Military are made by *cough* FN *cough*, even M16s nowadays are made by FN! - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:03, 4 November 2011 (CDT)
::::::Most weapons are still made by Colt, as all M4s so far have been Colt made and not all M16s are made by FN, and I believe a lot more M4s are around than M16s these days (at least from what I've seen). Regardless, there is a big difference between a US designed weapon having some of the manufacturing contracted out to someone else than adopting a foreign designed weapon, at least politically speaking. Would be taken by some as admitting that the Germans are better at designing guns than the Americans. Don't think this whole facet was the main reason the XM8 went away (got the impression from what I've read that it was an issue created by Colt to try and play the patriotic card), but certainly didn't help its chances. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:24, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::::I'm not arguing with you. :) I think H&K would have been more successful if they just entered they're regular G36, I think it would cost atleast as much as an FN SCAR if not less. What do you know/think? I thought I remember seeing a source saying the G36V cost $950~1000 USD. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:45, 5 November 2011 (CDT)

::::::::But the FN SCAR and XM8 were developed in completely different programs. The XM8 was supposed to be light, with a target weight around 4 lbs. They were never able to get it that light and when they got close the weapon developed problems overheating and even melting, which is why the XM8 had all the overheating problems while the G36 did not. The SCAR, on the other hand, was developed under the idea of having one weapon system with multiple calibers to allow solders to preform multiple different rolls while only needing to be familiar with one weapon platform. The individual weapon cost between the SCAR, XM8, and HK416 vs the M4 are not significant, however there are lots of surplus M4 parts that the army has accumulated over the years so maintenance costs on the M4 would be less than what it would be for a new gun, which is something that has to be considered when changing out a weapon system on such a large scale as the US Army or Marines.[[User:Dover500|Dover500]] 17:53, 5 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::Good God, the way this is going America will still have M16s and M4s in 2500 AD. M16A20 and M4A15 anyone? :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]]

::::::::::So, from what I've read here and other places, the main reason it wasn't picked (politics aside) was that it wasn't enough of an improvment over the M4/M16s to justify buying millions of them (plus parts etc) and storing/getting rid of the M4s and M16s. While I believe most modern 5.56mm rifles and carbines are better than the M16 platform, this does make sense to me. If it was significantly better I'd most likely blame a failure on politics, especially on the part of the other manufacturers and the American ones pushing the idea of a non-American gun as bad. That's what happened to the Avro CF-105 Arrow. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:06, 29 December 2011 (CST)

== Hopefully no more seeing these in movies ==

I really hope a lot of action movies and even games of the future to come would stop using the XM8 to be the image of "the rifle of the future" look. Even I made the naive mistake once and thought this rifle was cool, I hope that new comers into the world of firearms will wise up quick and see just because it looks kinda cool and spacy...doesn't mean it's NOT a complete piece of crap. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

How is the XM8 a piece of crap? Nobody seems to think there's an middleground with the XM8. Either you love it or you think it's a disgrace not worthy to even be thought of. Why do you hate it so much?

Probably just another M16/4-Series Fanboy whose jaw would drop to the ground in awe, when the XM8 blows the M4 to pieces in reliability-tests.
:Till the XM8 starts melting.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

why is there a wierd cartoonish/not-real picture of the XM8 on some pages.itlooks like it has been digitally made ona computer [[user:smish34|smish34]]
:Probably because a "weird cartoonish/not-real" picture is easier to make than a picture of one of the couple hundred prototypes in existence is to get. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
::I believe those pictures are from the official Army press releases. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XM8-Poster.jpg] --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 01:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I still think that the XM8 will still apear in film, and game based couple years in to the future.

That's because when designers look to a "future" gun, instead of being original and making one up, they pick a gun that is not on any production scale at all. They might as well have the G11 star in games and future war movies again because it was so future like when that thing came out [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
:Do me a favor and look at the Ghost Recon: Future Soldier talk page. ''Those'' monstrosities are what results when game designers try to be original and make a gun up. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:XM8 might be better if it wasn't all fucking plastic,pardon my language. In fact,a lot of weapons would be better,but wouldn't be used in mass production if you know,more steel work would be involved. Of coures,there are holes in the design for steel worked weapons as well as there are synthetic weapons and weapon parts. But this is an opinion from someone who thought there was no difference between clip and magazine,which there are several.--[[Special:Contributions/50.42.75.36|50.42.75.36]] 02:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
::Yeah for one thing they are not the same thing. Anyway, the fact that the XM8 is made of "plastic" as you call it isn't the problem. Many successful rifles are made of "plastic". The AUG, the G36, the F2000, the Tavor, the QBZ series. There is nothing wrong with the polymer material. It can be as strong as steel and make the weapon lighter and that is what the infantry needs. Lighter weapon means lighter the load and more ammo they can carry into battle without the fatigue. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
:::Well,not to be Randy P. Goatboy,but why the heck did SCAR succeed the XM8? Was it more...adaptable? With the SCAR-H,SCAR-L,the subtypes of those...was that the reason it won? So to speak?--[[User:Pump Shotty Justice|Pump_Shotty_Justice]]
::::A modified XM8 (how it differed from the original I have no idea) did compete in the SCAR program, but the FN beat it out. I'm unsure of any specifics, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:28, 7 November 2011 (CST)
:::::I am going purely by memory so might be totally wrong, but I think the original competition phase of the SCAR was in 2004 and known as SOFCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat (or might be Capable?) Assault Rifle), and the contestants were the Robinson Arms XCR, FN SCAR and the XM8. Remember reading that the XM8 was an improved version, but I believe it was just the late model of the XM8 which is the black/grey one on the main page as opposed to the tan. Only differences (there are supposed to be a dozen or so) I notice are the more attachment points, birdcage flash hider and the folding sights built into the carry handle. Assume the main reason it failed in that there was no caliber modularity which was one of the things SOCOM were looking for. This is the same version of the rifle that was used in the 2007 extreme dust testing the army did (which the XM8 won) which was a four way comparison between the M4, HK416, FN SCAR and the XM8 ([http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/military_rifle/index.html Video here]). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:42, 7 November 2011 (CST)

== XM8 Rail Model ==
I've heard that there were actually some XM8 prototypes with rail sets, but I have personally never seen one. Does anyone have pics of these? Would they be a good addition to the page? [[User:Researcher|Researcher]]
:I don't think it belongs on the main page as it hasn't appeared in anything (or has it?). The variant with the rails was called the XM8R. There were also some very early prototyped with conventional rails I think but not sure. I think the pic below is the standard length XM8R, but have also seen a shorter one: --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 20:17, 27 December 2011 (CST)
:[[File:Xm8scar.jpg|thumb|500px|none|XM8R - 5.56x45mm]]

:I seem to recall hearing that the holes in the forends were for plugging in rail mounts, sort of like with the [[Heckler & Koch G36|G36]] the XM8 was based on, and other newer H&K weapons like the [[Heckler & Koch UMP|UMP]]. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 20:42, 27 December 2011 (CST)

Yesh, with the rails, this gun went from interesting looking to ugly as hell [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 07:20, 28 December 2011 (CST)
:I actually prefer it with the rails, looks less like a toy. The holes in the handguard weren't to plug rails into, they were a new attachment system that was supposed to replace MIL-STD-1913 rails. From what I have read, this railed version was entered into the (SOF)CAR competition, but was pretty quickly ruled out for a number of reasons. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 10:11, 28 December 2011 (CST)

Not meaning to be offensive to anyone, but why do people show up wanting every variant of a gun ever made added to the page? Does nobody bother reading [[Rules,_Standards_and_Principles#Image_Rules:_Gun_Images|Section 2.9 of the Rules, Standards, and Principles page]]?
*''Unless it appears in a film, television show, anime or Video Game, don't upload every variation of every gun possible.''
[[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:30, 28 December 2011 (CST)

:I'm not that sure any real railed XM8s were actually made, most image you can get of railed XM8s turn out to be Airsoft. That one looks to have the "XM8" logo but not the "HK" that usually went before it on the prototypes. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:43, 28 December 2011 (CST)
::I believe that the Malaysian Army/Navy/Police actually have a number that were delivered for evaluation so they definitely exist. Below are a few different variants that they have, which includes regular carbines and compact carbines (with MP5A3 style stock) with the carry handle and sight replaced with a rail but retaining the PCAP handguard, along with a DMR/LMG length gun with RIS handguard and full length monolithic top rail. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 13:17, 28 December 2011 (CST)
::[[File:Xm8malaysia04bj9.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

:::Yeah, I've seen shots like those before, but always on random little websites I couldn't tell were trustworthy or not, and it always seemed odd they'd use PCAP and RIS on the same weapon, especially since no standardised PCAP accessories actually exist yet. Where did that one come from? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 13:25, 28 December 2011 (CST)
::::Go [http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?112021-H-amp-K-XM-8-in-Malaysia here] and you can see it actually being shot by Malaysian armed forces, police and HK reps. Also, [http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/05/04/xm8-mp5grenade-launcher-hk417s-weapons-of-the-royal-malaysian-navy/ here] you can see some photos from a Malaysian Navy anniversary event where you can see an XM8 with PCAP and top rail (along with some other odd stuff like and MP5 with M203 and an [[Accuracy_International_Arctic_Warfare_series#Accuracy_International_Arctic_Warfare_Covert|Accuracy International AWC]] ) --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:09, 28 December 2011 (CST)

At least some country is considering it. Realistically only a small country can change their standard infantry rifle on a nation wide scale. The US would need a lot of time to phase out any of its rifles and I'm talking about the branches that will give, like the Army, who are always gets the new toys, while the Marines will stick to their rifles until they die. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 21:47, 28 December 2011 (CST)

Did a bit more research about the XM8 and come up with a few little tid-bits that shed some light on the "Malaysian" variant. There were three different "spirals" (prototypes) for the XM8:
*Spiral 1: Two PCAP holes in the handguard.
*Spiral 2: Four PCAP holes in the handguard (two wider spaced holes on the compact carbine).
*Spiral 3: Aluminium MIL-STD-1913 top rail (compact carbines now have 3 PCAP hole with the same spacing as on the standard carbine)
Also, Heckler & Koch no longer markets the XM8 under that name, instead calling it the GVM8, which is basically the latest version with the UG Govt XM8 markings removed. As you can't see the markings on the above guns I can't tell for sure, so they are either "Spiral 3" XM8s or GVM8s. If they turn up in anything would call them "Spiral 3" XM8s so as not to confuse people though.
Now for a random little fact I came across, General Petraeus actually carried a Compact Carbine XM8 whilst he was CG of the 101st Airborne in Iraq. Apparently he was so impressed with the XM8 after shooting it in an Army sponsored demo he actually requested and carried it while on duty there. There are also several other photos knocking around of XM8s (normally Compact Carbines) in Iraq, which were supposedly tested by Special Forces. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 07:21, 11 January 2012 (CST)

:Sweet, thanks for the info. Also: "This gun, I like it... I SHALL HAVE ONE!" ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:16, 11 January 2012 (CST)

Thought this could be of some use: http://static.hkpro.com/straightgrain/docs/TheHKDecades.pdf --[[User:Researcher|Researcher]] ([[User talk:Researcher|talk]]) 05:07, 26 December 2012 (EST)

Talk:Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

2012-03-13T02:01:32Z

Researcher:

== Airsoft 1911 ==
Are you absolutely sure the airsoft gun wasn't based on the gun in the game?-protoAuthor
:What are you talking about? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 04:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::You say the custom 1911 was based on an airsoft gun. Are you sure it wasn't the other way around?-protoAuthor
::I also agree that the gun isn't based off the one in the pic for that weapon. Aside from it being an airsoft gun, it is a compact version of a 1911 when Big Boss's 1911 was a fullsize. Also, the slide serrations are slanted wheras the ones on big boss's weapon were vertical like those on the original 1911. Neither one has anything to do with the other, I think the image should be removed.

the 'source' for the statement 'Big Boss's gun is based off a custom airsoft' is http://crimsonsguns.tripod.com/gameguns.html

However, I view this with a huge degree of skepticism. For starters, as mentioned, the barrel/slide seems to be longer on Big Boss's gun. But even if it is based on an airsoft gun, the airsoft gun itself is based on a standard real-world 1911 with real world features. So it's just one step removed from raw, hands on research. But then again, I don't think most game companies actually buy real versions of the guns they are modeling, they just look around for photos of them. It's like saying 'the model for the gun in this game isn't based on a REAL M-16, it's based on pictures of an M-16'

That 'source' mentions that the gun was produced by Sheriff Co. Given that Sheriff is mentioned in the MGS3 credits it's actually quite likely that it was in fact modeled off an airsoft gun. However, the one in the picture is obviously not the one in the game.--[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 19:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I know that Western Arms did an airsoft version of the MGS3 custom 1911 after the game was released. I wasn't aware of an airsoft gun like that existing before MGS3 was released. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 07:30, 2 July 2011 (CDT)

== DSR-1 ==

It can also be found in South America when following Naomi's trail, just follow the wrong footsteps from the point where you can also find hand trails. You will hear Naomi crying for help (from a radio) and a sniper will wait for you to come. She has the DSR-1 with her.

== In game pistures ==

Someone needs to post ingame pictures of the guns.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

this shot gun (http://www.gunsamerica.com/926290644/Guns/Shotguns/Ithaca-Shotguns/SxS/Ithaca_NID_New_Ithaca_Field_Grade.htm) looks alot like the "twin barrel" in the game.--[[Special:Contributions/184.35.22.22|184.35.22.22]] 22:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mark 23 Mod 1? ==
''According to the Metal Gear Wiki, the gun they used as a reference in MGS4 is actually an experimental "Phase 2" model that is currently undergoing testing by the US Navy.''

No, actually it says that ''the SOCOM presented in MGS1, MGS2 and MGS4 is in fact the Phase II model handgun submitted for trials in the USSOCOM Offensive Handgun Weapon System (OHWS) competition around the later part of 1991, and not the actual production model of the Mk.23 Mod 0''. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

::I wrote that -- the differences were the LAM, front serrations on the slide, markings, and the hammer looked different too. By the time the Mk23 was received in May '96, these details bad been changed; both for the military and civilian versions of the pistol. Overall, they're mostly aesthetic changes. -- Orca*

==Screenshots needed==

This page needs someone with enough effort to add pictures for all of these guns. -GM

:I can't do screencaps, but I did add some details about some of the weapons such as where they can be found and such. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 12:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:I would agree that a game with this many weapons would be much better with more relevant screencaps, especially ones without watermarks. More relevant information about the guns themselves would also be welcome.

==Why the strange biases towards certain weapons and calibers in this game?==

It seems odd to me why the weapon/caliber selection is so odd in this game. Metal Gear Solid has been one of the best game series to prominently display the real names of every gun in the game, but I have to wonder if some of those companies Kojima got permission from paid him to underplay the abilities of other guns in this game.

For the calibers, it seems mighty odd that the Glock 18c is the only 9x19mm pistol in the entire game. Not even the rebels or militia use older 9x19mm pistols, which is very odd because you'd think that of the vast majority of older pistols that escaped the worldwide mandatory ID lock systems that is mentioned in the game's backstory would be 9x19mm pistols. Not even something like a Beretta M9 is used by the PMC troopers, even though it would be a nice free choice to have in Metal Gear Online.

The game also strangely features 7.62x51mm Battle Rifles where they aren't the most appropriate, such as how the PMCs use the FN SCAR-H even in the confines of urban ruins (as in Act 1) or an intact city (as in Act 3). Only the South American countryside in Act 2 would be an appropriate location for those Battle Rifles in the hands of general troopers. You'd think that Kojima with his weaponry knowledge would give them assault rifles/PDWs/shotguns instead while in urban operations, but that's somehow not the case.

Did H&K and FN pay Kojima to include (and in turn, advertise) their products a great deal in this highly-anticipated and wildly popular game? FN has the Five-SeveN, the P90, the SCAR-H, and the FAL all in the game, while H&K has the SOCOM pistol, the MP5SD2, the XM8, the G3A3, and the HK21E. Colt products and their users by contrast don't get that kind of exposure--Colt M4s are rare, and Colt M16s are completely non-existent in this game. I also think it's telling that the FN P90 has its 50 round magazine, a combat sight, a flashlight and a suppressor, but its competitor, the H&K MP7 has only a red dot sight and is stuck with its 20 round magazine (not its upgraded 40 round magazine) according to this game just can't compete.

Contrary to what some posters on this wiki have said elsewhere, I don't believe this game is biased towards the latest and greatest weapons in general, as several weapons here such as the Vz. 83, the FN FAL carbine, the G3A3, the MAC-10, the Mosin Nagant, the PKM, the RPG-7 and the SVD Dragonuv are quite old.

Kojima definitely spent some time doing weapons research for this game, but did he ever come out with a reason as to why the game chose such odd additions to its arsenal? His personal favourite gun is the Barret M82, something not suited for general combat, so maybe he himself doesn't know as much as the ingame info might imply. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the same arguments could be said about any of the Tom Clancy games like Rainbow Six Vegas and it's whoring worth of H&K weaponry [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

It would seem to me that if HK and FN paid Kojima off to showcase (or "whore out", whichever you reading this prefers) their tech, weapons like the XM8 and SCAR-H wouldn't be seemingly outclassed by the M4. You can kit the M4 out with anything and everything, while the SCAR-H lacks a suppressor and grenade launcher (severely hindering its flexibility) and the only thing the XM8 gets is the grenade launcher. Heck, the M4 is pretty much a CQB, grenadier, and designated marksman carbine all in one package (and I typically use it as such, often foregoing the actual ''sniper rifles'' in the game in long range combat for the M4 equipped with an ACOG). If HK or FN had paid him off, it would seem logical for the M4 to be totally outclassed in-game by both the XM8 and SCAR-H. Not only those points, but the M4 and the 1911s (I say 1911s collectively because cutscenes seem to automatically replace every non-1911 pistol in your inventory with the Operator) are implied to be Snake's signature weapons this time around. If he were paid off, why aren't the Mark 23 and XM8 or Five-Seven and SCAR-H his signature weapons? Also where's the PSG1, the so-called "greatest sniper rifle in the world" (or so HK says)? And I also feel the urge to point out that the HK21E has '''0''' modifications for it as well as a ridiculously slow ROF, which makes the M60E4 ''clearly'' superior to it. Now, I'm not exactly ''defending'' either company here, but it just seems to me that if they had paid Kojima off, the biases pointed out here would be far more extreme. As it stands, I just think Kojima wanted the weapons he likes the most to be the ones players used the most. Regarding the "old" weapons in the game, they may have seen a few years, yes, but FALs, G3s, Dragunovs, PKs, and above all the RPG-7 are so ubiquitous today that we'll be seeing them on modern battlefields, ''especially'' ones in the Middle East, for decades to come. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, now that I've spent some time thinking about it, the M4 and M1911 in MGS4 may not actually be Colt products at all. After all, didn't a court decision in real life rule that an M4 is a type of firearm and not a Colt trademark at all? It's kind of like how an "M1911-style pistol" is also a type of pistol, not a Colt trademark which is why there are dozens if not hundreds of kinds of "M1911-style pistols" for sale on the general market today. I wonder if Kojima asked Colt to use their trademarks and got rebuffed for whatever reason, which might have caused him to withdraw the M4s from the PMCs and substitute FN SCAR-Hs until someone told him he could just call it an M4 (though not a Colt M4) and avoid copyright infringement.

:On the issue of customizability, I think the M4's customizability compared to, for instance, the XM8 and FN SCAR-H is a bit of laziness on the part of Kojima. I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't just stick the M14 EBR's suppressor model on the end of the FN SCAR-H or G3A3 and turn those two into suppressed firearms, for instance. They could have also stuck the M4's suppressor model onto the AK-101 or XM8 as well (in my opinion the XM8's integral red dot sight in MGS4 is easier to use than the M4's, being a great deal less claustrophobic than the M4's version). Something like the FN EGLM would have been nice on the SCAR-H (or the SCAR-L had they bothered to give the PMCs assault rifles in urban areas) but unlike the M320 or GP-30, would only have gone on one weapon (unless the SCAR-L was included) and possibly not have been good on the cost-benefit analysis. But my point, that the customizability of many of the weapon systems (where are the PSO-1 scopes for the AN-94 and AK-102, for instance?) is more an artifact of the design decision than the reality of the weapons in question. Of course, even with the full "real-life" customizability, the M4 would still be the only one capable of carrying an underslung shotgun, which I think is unique enough (though I bet the XM8 could have gotten one had it been adopted, and I'm sure one will be designed for the FN SCAR models if it proves itself in the field enough).

:Oh, and one of the reasons why you can snipe with the M4 is because the game over-emphasizes headshots and doesn't implement ballistic physics for bullets. If it did, bullet drop would come into play (especially since the M4's short barrel means that less velocity and energy is imparted to the bullet, resulting in less effective range), moreso with the M4 than the FN SCAR-H or M14 EBR for instance. I think the game would have been more fun if helmets were stronger (for instance, 5 helmet hits from most pistol weapons to kill, 3 helmet hits from 5.56mm weapons to kill someone, or 2 7.62x51mm/PDW ammunition hits, or 1 9x39mm/shotgun slug hit), forcing the player to aim for the exposed face or neck to guarantee a one-hit headshot kill).

:I only mentioned those weapons as "old" so as to defuse claims that Kojima was only focussed on the "latest and greatest."

:It would have been nice if a PSG-1 and FAMAS (both weapons used in MGS1) showed up in the game for old time's sake, but that was not to be. Still, that doesn't resolve the question of why HK's PDW (the MP7A1) is so inferior to FN's PDW (the P90) in this game. Even the wikipedia image of the MP7A1 shows it with a suppressor and 40 round magazine, along with custom optics. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

::Play on a higher difficulty level. The strength of the PMC's helmets varies. On the easiest level, a single 9mm round will punch through. On the highest level, it takes a couple of rounds of 7.62 NATO to punch through. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

One imagines a general switch from assault rifles back to battle rifles would occur in a world where you might reasonably expect to encounter extremely tough infantry armour or power suits; given the nature of the PMCs as private entities, being "equipped for anything" is probably a selling point. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:23, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:Sure, but if you're really "equipped for anything" you'd issue what's needed for the environment. And the PMCs in Act 2 (South America) still use the SCAR-H CQC even though in open countryside that barrel length is more of a liability than anything else. Even the Leftist insurgents are using full-size G3A3s in that stage. In a battle rifle, the shorter the barrel, the more of the cartridge's energy goes to waste as useless muzzle flash and sound. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:09, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

::To be fair, Pieuvre Armement also have more support weapons than any of the other PMCs (snipers, HMGs, grenade launchers, and a lot of mounted guns) and it looks like they were primarily hired to defend key government structures rather than fight it out in the open. Perhaps with the SCARs they just got a bulk discount, or given it's a private entity it could just be one of the directors like the look of the weapon / someone was impressed by the salesman's spiel / someone was sleeping with someone else / whatever. Out of game, it makes some sense; it means you only need one set of gestures coded for NPC / rifle no matter what level they're in. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:19, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:If Kojima's aim was to make the FN SCAR-H a "this is one of the signature enemy NPC guns" type of thing, then that does make some sense, but that doesn't even cover how many Pieuvre Armement troopers can be found patrolling in the open, sometimes ambushed by Leftist insurgents, or the lack of customizability options for the FN SCAR-H.

:Furthermore, if Kojima and his team could afford the time and money to put the KAC Masterkey on the M4A1 Carbine (an accessory that can be mounted on no other weapon in this game) you could just as easily do the same kind of work and stick an FN EGLM grenade launcher to the SCAR-H (it uses the same swing-out cylinder as does the M320 grenade launcher, so the animations would be largely the same), to say nothing of a suppressor or the LSS underslung shotgun for the XM8. And why not rip off the Mk. 14 Mod 0's suppressor to use on the SCAR-H, G3A3 or the FAL carbine? Before you tell me "they don't have barrel threading," neither does Snake's Operator pistol, his very first suppressed lethal weapon. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:31, 30 May 2011 (CDT)
::Uh dude, Snake's Operator does have a threaded barrel, did you even look at the pics... - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:41, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:I stand corrected, the thumbnail made the threading blend together into a featureless grey. Regardless, my other points stand. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:55, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

I think the idea was to make players want to use the M4 over other weapons (I guess to emphasise it), so the SCAR couldn't be as good as it. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:07, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

Noteworthy is the fact that the Masterkey in reality doesn't come in a rail-mounted version like is shown in-game. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:44, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

== Mk. 23 Mod 0 ==
I just have to ask this; why does Snake like using the H&K Mk. 23? I mean, from everything I've heard/read about them, the USP compact tactical variant is much better, so why doesn't Snake use that?--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 16:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

He uses it because the designers wanted him to use it. And if you've ever shot a Mk23 you'd know that it is vastly superior to the entire USP series in every possible way other than weight and weight shouldnt be an issue you're looking for a combat handgun.
-Double Agent M

:Um, yes, weight ''is'' an issue in a combat handgun. Weight is ''always'' an issue when it comes to the weapons and gear used by soldiers. That's why the Mark 23 ''failed'' as a combat handgun and lavished on supply shelves instead of inside holsters like the various 1911 makes and even the entire USP series. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now on the HK Mk. 23's page, but since this was brought up, I might as well ask it here: why ''was'' the Mk. 23 made so big and bulky in the first place, if its performance could have been replicated in the smaller USP series? It's close in size to the Desert Eagle despite firing a smaller (and more combat-practical) cartridge. Was it to ensure ruggedness, resistance to salt water damage, and reliability? Or something else? It's always puzzled me about this pistol that is one of the signature weapons of the Metal Gear Solid series (making appearances in 1, 2, and 4). Of course, it could be that Kojima just thinks it's a "cool gun" . . . --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 20:59, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Its weight helps counteract recoil, the elongated barrel improves accuracy, and right out of the box it can be fitted with a suppressor and a LEM. It's bulky enough so that if you need to you can beat a man to death with it. It's a fantastic combat handgun but where it loses out to Berettas and Colts is in complexity. Because of it's raw size you cant just whip it around and the controls can take some getting used to. It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm.
-Double Agent M

:Supposedly the USP Compact Tactical can mount a suppressor and Laser Aiming Module, but only has 8 rounds in .45 ACP. Also, as a "Offensive Handgun Weapons System," the SOCOM pistol supposed to be usable as a primary weapon when killing is supposed to be done discreetly, such as many situations in the Metal Gear Solid series. On paper I can see why it's better, but if the hands-on experience of operators deems it as "uncomfortable to carry and use," then their complaints trump the on-paper benefits.

:Of course, "uncomfortable" and "hard to use" is a bit of a relative term, since training and practice can certainly acclimatise someone to almost any well-designed weapons system, but that takes time, money, and perseverance. Given that handguns are hardly a primary weapon system anymore, and the majority those who do professionally use them as such (such as average beat cops) don't train with them to be expert shooters most of the time, I suppose ease of use is a major factor because it's the easier way out instead of spending time to get used to a better-on-paper but less-user-friendly weapon. If "better-on-paper" mattered more, wouldn't the FBI be using Glock 20 pistols instead of Glock 22 pistols? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 16:48, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
:::I agree with you. :) But I'd still love to get a hold of one and try it for myself. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:: "It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm." <-I love this kind of thing. Sure, a pistol that's a foot and an half long with a suppressor and weighs as much as an empty MP5 is a much better compliment to your primary weapon than it's weight in extra magazines ''for'' that primary weapon. Think you needed to lay off the HK propaganda there, "Agent M." To actually answer the question, they used the Mk23 because it's huge and blocky (same reason Meryl got that 50 AE Deagle), so it's easy for the player to see it in Snake's hands and for the PS1 to render it. Simple as that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:42, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:::I've heard from a lot people who actually own MK 23s and they say that their excellent weapons (and no, it was not "HK propaganda"). - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

::::From what I've heard, they're excellent weapons in terms of accuracy (which comes from being gigantic and heavy) but not something you'd want to take into combat; they're too big for a backup weapon and not capable enough as a primary weapon. Also, anyone who drops the cost of a Mk23 on a pistol is going to have thought it was an excellent weapon ''before'' they bought it, otherwise they never would have done so in the first place. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:56, 24 May 2011 (CDT)
:::::I would buy one, but hey, a four pound .44 Magnum revolver feels like nothing in my hands, and I'm only a medium-sized guy with not much of a build. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:43, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

:::::Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but is it me, or the MK 23 is listed in the menu as actually much lighter than it is IRL? Maybe that's why it is so popular in the MG universe... --[[User:Researcher|Researcher]] 20:18, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

== Meryl's Desert Eagle ==

Just how "combat-effective" would the ballistics of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle be? What might the effective range be, and would it regularly penetrate the body armour of the FROG troopers she faces? Or would she be better off with an 40-round MP7A1 (to go with the theme of "biggest to smallest" weapons of the Rat Patrol) when fighting the FROG troopers in Advent Palace and Outer Haven? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

*I've got an Airsoft Desert Eagle (bought many years ago, mind) that came with both barrels, and it's weighted to the point you can see what a bad idea it is: it's ridiculously front-heavy with that barrel extension, and I imagine with a scope as well it'd probably weigh as much as the MP7 anyway. So maybe it could penetrate body armour and maybe it couldn't, but you'd still have better ergo from using a 1911 duct-taped to the head of a banjo. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 09:21, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:Okay, so that Airsoft model exactly duplicates the loaded weight of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle? That's rather interesting. Even if it couldn't penetrate the body armour the FROGs seem to be wearing, would the impact force be enough to inflict blunt trauma on the FROGs, such as broken ribs, concussions, or the like? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:15, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Well back when I did Airsoft, I played for functionality and being simple. Sure my team and I decked out our guns, but nothing more than red dot sights, and vertical grips. Because it isn't real firearms, we tried to not equip like we would a real weapon because it's not the same thing. Lighter is always better. The less we have to carry, the better. That being said, I would never get an Airsoft Desert Eagle to shoot in games. For fun, yeah. It'll be cool to run around the woods with the 10in barrel and a scope mounted on it, but you wouldn't get any good range with an airsoft pistol anyway, even if it is gas powered. Now a REAL Desert Eagle, I'd get for fun, but that's only after I get my more practical guns first.

Anyway, I think from a character standpoint, Meryl's character is supposed to be a "tough chick" so what's the iconic tough guy gun? A Desert Eagle from the action movies. I don't know if the .50 AE could go through body armor [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:42, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:Yeah, I just use it for plinking spiders because I have a high ceiling. Bought it because I was a teenager and it was a Desert Eagle, I will make no excuses on that front. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 10:48, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

::lol, I also bought a Airsoft Desert Eagle when I was a teenager and I still have it. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:50, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

:::Well, living here in Comrade Elizabeth's Glorious People's Republic of Englandstan makes it easy to hang on to it since if I'm reading this correctly I couldn't legally sell it anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:13, 25 May 2011 (CDT)

::::lol. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 07:49, 25 May 2011 (CDT)

:Well I admit before I knew anything about the M16, I was very anti-gun kid in early high school. Then when I got to know guns, I thought the M16 is this Vietnam piece of crap that jams all the time and the AK is the ultimate assault rifle until I grew up and got a more objective view of guns. When buying my first Airsoft, I bought a P90 cause I was a fan of Stargate...then I discovered a P90 Airsoft is useless, inaccurate and has terrible range. So I went and bought an M733, and then realize that you need a longer barrel for range and accuracy and that evolved to my M4 type rifle. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:59, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

One more thing; does the reloading style Meryl uses in the fight inside Outer Haven's computer room have a name (where she jams one of her magazines into the crook of her knee while firing with her other hand, before reloading an empty Desert Eagle with the magazine held in her knee)? I see so many adds for shooting schools with patented styles around I have to wonder if this comes from one of them. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:11, 21 June 2011 (CDT)

== Tanegashima rifle ==

Why isn't it on the page?

:Thanks to Evil Tim's hard work, it is now on the page. However, there's something that remains to be investigated; I've heard conflicting reports about whether or not the Tanegashima arquebus will always fire its "divine wind" (translated version of the Japanese word "Kamikaze") tornado if you fire it in the opposite direction of the wind in a singleplayer level. That could be something worth looking into. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:15, 2 June 2011 (CDT)
::I'll check up on that; I'd just heard it was a one-third chance per shot. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:51, 2 June 2011 (CDT)
::Nope, nothing to do with the wind direction, I tried with and against the wind, and in the end it just went off at random like usual. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:17, 3 June 2011 (CDT)
:I see it was just a rumour then. Still, I'm puzzled as to why you didn't take a screenshot highlighting the extreme silliness of the weapon; it would have been worth a chuckle to see a screenshot of PMCs caught in the tornado flying in a spiral while dropping far more items than they could ever carry in real life while collecting their "frequent flier miles."--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 12:57, 4 June 2011 (CDT)
::Well, I accidentally selected Solid Normal rather than Big Wuss Easy, and it's hard enough getting the Tanegashima to do its thing normally, nevermind trying to check how it's affected by the direction of the wind while being shot at. I'm doing enough stupid things to burn through rations as it is :D [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:58, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:I see; I guess not all of us have the time to learn how not to get shot up less in this game (here's a tip; going prone or crawling is the best way to use your Octocamo). Would have been nice to see PMCs flying in a big spiral anyhow on this wiki. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:43, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
::Well sure, I can be pretty sneaky when I'm not doing stupid things like seeing if I can get a Gekko to throw a grenade at me. Same as I'm trying to avoid wearing the Octocamo hood even though it's good for your camo index, because it also makes Snake look really stoopid. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:42, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

== Someone needs to finish this page ==

This page is how old and no one has finished it? Someone needs to start doing it.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't have this game and it's a chore to get all the screenshots second hand [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I've got a much better capture device than I used to, so I could probably do this at some stage; the main problem is I'd have to record it first (since the software with the Dazzle crashes every time I take a screenshot and BSODs the entire computer if I try to take more than one); I'll have a crack at it next time I'm off work. Don't want to just stand in a corner looking at the same thing for every gun, that makes for dull page. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 09:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

:Please do. Stealth camo would be useful to take screenshots of weapons in the hands of NPCs (such as the MP7 or the like). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

::Still on this. It's going to take a while before I have time (especially since I'll need to record some of those billion hours of cutscenes), but I haven't forgotten. I'll probably get Twin Snakes and cap the whole series, since doing PS1 MGS1 without first-person aim mode for caps would be a bit pointless. "Look, Snake has a FAMAS! Down there in his hands...oh just click on the damn image and press your nose right up to the screen." Only thing I really need from that is a comparison shot of the Abrams, since the original game's one had two M2 Brownings instead of one. Also I've got an MGS2 trailer somewhere showing Snake with a FAMAS, so I'll have to add that to the 2 page. I'm hoping I can find a picture of the wooden prop version of Fortune's railgun that they built for motion capture. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:31, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:Good to know. I'm looking forward to a full version of this page. I would have finished the MGS2 page myself, except that the PC version I have (the official KONAMI port) is somewhat poorly optimized, with some textures missing or improperly rendered (and what do you mean, KONAMI, that we can't use the mouse to aim in FPV or duplicate the pressure sensitive button functions from a PS2 controller with a keyboard?!). Also, the FAMAS in MGS2 is only usable on the demo version of MGS2 (though it does show up in some cutscenes in the Plant chapter for some strange reason). Did they reuse the MGS2 Demo FAMAS for the Twin Snakes? Perhaps you can find out. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:54, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah, that'd be worth checking. I heard GIAT (it was still GIAT back then) got very precious about their intellectual property after they realised people wanted to put the FAMAS in games (they're the same about model companies and the LeClerc, Tamiya had to stick their logo and "officially endorsed" on the box of their LeClerc kit) and I think that's why Konami pulled the FAMAS from 2 and never had it turn up again even in 4. Probably they couldn't say no to using it in a remake since they'd already said yes the first time. I've still got the demo of 2 (only reason anyone bought ''Zone of the Enders'', after all) and the FAMAS isn't in that either; it goes from the start of Tanker to the end of the boss fight with Olga, and only gives you the M9 and USP. It was only ever in the early trailers showing Snake on the Tanker. I heard there's some other changes like the guys in the Warhead Storage room using ring airfoil rounds rather than just instakilling you with a radiation leak if you were spotted. Also, you didn't miss anything with the pressure sensitive buttons, trying to half-hold the fire button to aim a rifle in first person was terrible. Apparently the "Tanegashima" is a Japanese copy of a Portugese arquebus design (sayeth Wikipedia, anyway), so I'll have to add that to the page too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:19, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:Well, copyright is a sticky situation (go look at one of my earlier comments here and notice how there are no Colt products in this game, despite the presence of an M4A1 Carbine and an M1911). Ubisoft got around it because the FAMAS appears in Rainbow Six Vegas 2 by its real name, so why not MGS4? And I was wrong; the FAMAS is coded within the MGS2 demo, but it is only accessible [http://youtu.be/MxfMCXcpGx8 via a code]. And actually there are a few uses for the pressure-sensitive buttons in MGS2--without them you bang your head against a locker ventilation grille when trying to look out, alerting any nearby enemies. You also can't aim an assault rifle without the pressure-sensitive controls, which made controlling them on the PC next to impossible. Another problem is you can't lower a pistol without firing it if you don't let go of the aiming button gently (I got around this on the PC version by unequipping my weapon). Finally, the distance you throw grenades is determined by how hard you press the pressure-sensitive button (but they were almost useless anyway since throwing a frag or flashbang grenade automatically causes an alert upon detonation and frags have a small damage radius). All this made for a frustratingly bad PC port, which is why I caved in and got the PS2 version afterwards. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:20, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Well, made a start before realising I'm going to have to crop the borders off every image by hand. :( Ah well, they're just placeholders anyway just so we can get rid of the IGN watermarks and have actual game images. For now they can keep the borders and I'll replace them all when I do this page properly. I hope you appreciate my sacrifice, I had to uninstall Vanquish to get these. Stupid 40 gig PS3. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:35, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

Good work so far Tim. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:40, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

*Ok, I'll put up the explosives later today (since we don't have them at all). I'm fairly sure the railgun qualifies as reasonably believable; it was actually built as a physical object (a wooden MoCap prop) and looks like an XM25 that's eaten its Wheaties. And then everyone else's Wheaties. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 23:29, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

Anyone remember where the PMCs with standalone Masterkeys show up? I think it's somewhere in Act 2, but I can't remember if you have to cause an alert or if they're just ahead of where I stopped recording (partway through Confinement Facility). Also, don't worry, the shots aren't all going to be from Act 2. Also added a spoiler warning since, well, I can hardly ''not'' have a shot of A Certain Person holding the Patriot, and the fourth Act being on Shadow Moses is kind of a spoiler too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:07, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:There's definitely at least one in the Confinement Facility, check out about 10:50 of this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg87rbI3CXU#t=10m50s], there's a guard with one who shows up with one at the right edge of the screen (pretty sure he always respawns there with a Masterkey). --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 15:27, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

::Naw, that's an XM320, he's one of the pair I've got a shot of in that section. You can hear a "phut" rather than a shotgun blast when he fires. But I know there's people with standalone Masterkeys somewhere, because I remember being puzzled at why on earth you would create such a thing. (edit) Ah, MG Wiki says there's one at the gate of Vista Mansion. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:Also, considering all the shit that fits inside Metal Gear Mk. 2 (50 Stingers, 50 Javelins, 50 LAWs, a Barrett, a railgun the size of a pony, etc) why does it never occur to Snake to hide inside it himself? I know they kind of joked about it with Snake being able to pocket a drum can that's bigger than he is, but still. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:36, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

It's called a "Hyperspace Arsenal." I would be all for a realistic mode that forced you to carry guns that are too big right from the beginning of a mission rather than have them delivered by the mini-Metal Gear, or have you collect them after a period of time after "requesting" them at a cache location dropped off by Drebin, or else only be able to transfer/launder/buy ammo just after meeting Drebin in cutscenes. Still, that wouldn't address the other realism issues this game has, such as how the NPCs are indestructible--shouldn't shooting them with .50 BMG weapons or high explosives blow off limbs or reduce them to ludicrous gibs? And what about the octocamo system; wouldn't the human eye only be realistically fooled if Snake was hiding in foliage or else, quite some distance away, lest the enemies spot his outline and start shooting at Snake?

In any case, do you think you could also include tidbits on which guns need to be laundered and which don't need to be? It'd be a nice tidbit, since the entry already includes which guns are available in multiplayer and which aren't. I'm very much looking forward to seeing more great screenshots of this game's guns--do you think it'd be possible for you to equip stealth camo and enter First Person view so we can see NPCs with holding their guns up close?--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 14:06, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:I'm afraid I don't have stealth camo (I can never resist firing LAWs at Strykers :() but I tend to prefer wider shots with things actually going on in them; just focusing right in on the gun makes the page rather dull to look through, IMO (I ''hate'' those CoD page images with everything cropped out but one corner of the screen; just imagine if you took the shot of Dirty Harry holding his revolver in the "do you feel lucky?" scene and cut out everything but the revolver). Also, I'm fairly sure the player and world models for weapons are exactly the same in this game. Still, it's not that hard to get close when you're recording video rather than taking individual screenshots, and it's even easier to get close to the totally broken Raven Sword AI in Act 3. Plus you can get great views of almost all the PMC weapons in cutscenes anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:53, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

I didn't mean cropping the images so that only the guns are visible; I was just saying that with Stealth camo you could get within punching (or kissing) distance of the various NPCs in the game so you could get good pics of them holding their weapons without the annoying black-screen parts from scopes or the HUD marks in the centre of the screen if you use Snake's binocular's or the mini-Metal Gear's camera view. Also, could you please please please make a screenshot of the FROG firing her DSR-1 at Big Mama followed by the latter's "I'm fine" despite not wearing any body armour? I find it one of the more unintentionally hilarious parts of the game. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 16:15, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:I'll be sure to get that, yes. Though for me the funniest sequence was the part before the "guns of the Patriots" part, where the US Army were pointing guns at Liquid Ocelot's boat and making clicking noises for so long it became ridiculous. Of course the Foxdie scene was funnier, but probably intentional (Snake and Liquid do the "Fox..." "...Die" bit, Liquid Ocelot jumps up and runs away cackling ridiculously and Snake responds by falling over). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

Heh heh, it's funny how after the "Guns of the Patriots" scene, Drebin's prices fall flat on their faces with a permanent 50% discount until the end of the game. Of course, that raises the question about why Drebin's prices never go up; wouldn't the complete lock-out of ID-locked firearms mean that the services of gun launderers like Drebin would be more in demand than ever (resulting in a huge price increase), even if just to keep the Rebels who use naked guns from killing all the ID-locked gun users? It's just another entry in the long list of this game's realism problems. And of course, the first FOXDIE scene is another manifestation of how wrong it was to let Kojima direct the game, since he's so firmly stuck in MGS1's shadow the plot of MGS4 is so firmly stuck in the first game's mold. Of course, that's got nothing to do with the weaponry in the game, but I'm still looking forward to this page's completion nonetheless. By the way, have you seen Ocelot's "THINK AGAIN!" ability in Metal Gear Online yet?--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:47, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

:I must admit I've never played MGO. As for Kojima, I think he was at his best in MGS3 when he was making a tribute to something he loved (the old spy movies that had inspired the series in the first place, with their cool gadgets and ridiculous villians) and he's at his worst when he's trying to force out a game he seems to have regarded as his obligation; I remember that he didn't really want to be involved in 4 and only came back on board after the fans raised a stink about his being absent. He strikes me as a lot like Lucas, who was great when he was making a tribute to the old-fashioned sci-fi he grew up with and hideous when he was left making something he didn't really care for except as a way to make money. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:57, 1 June 2011 (CDT)

Funny that you mentioned George Lucas. I have to wonder whether or not Kojima took some inspiration from Lucas when he decided to make his newest, completely over-referenced MacGuffin: nanomachines that do almost everything, from track biological functions to serve as ID keys, even form the basis for mind control or emotional manipulation. Kind of reminded me of Lucas' "midi-chlorians," since the two of them are both blood-borne squiggly things. Oh well, the fans, like everyone else, don't always know how what they want isn't necessarily what they need. And even the greatest of us can succumb to "Creator's Conceit," whereupon one starts believing in the delusion that "because I made this best-selling piece of media, I can change it however I want, heedless of the needs of believability, plausibility, realism or even my own previous work." Ocelot's "THINK AGAIN" ability in Metal Gear Online can be seen in full force [http://youtu.be/XM7yc5Gf_OU here]. You should give Metal Gear Online a try if you have the money; its training mode is great for taking pictures of the unique characters and their weapons, and it is the only mode where you can use the ballistic shield, or hear the various multiplayer characters do their Rambo impressions while firing an M60E4. Once again, a hearty thank you for your hard work. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:26, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

:I think I'm immune to stupid depictions of nanomachines after playing the two ''Deus Ex'' games, expecially the second one where you apparently have a nanoforge in every weapon that makes the relevant ammo type out of a universal base material ''as you fire''. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:53, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

:Also, I'm trying to remember: I know there's no flashback of Vulcan Raven, but wasn't there one of Sniper Wolf that showed her PSG-1 at one point? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:59, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

::The various flashbacks in Act 4 can be found [http://youtu.be/81A3yb_FATg here] and [http://youtu.be/aznWCpBYkKQ here]. You can check those out at your leisure. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 12:50, 4 June 2011 (CDT)

:::The links you're posting don't work [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:59, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

::Pardon me, they're fixed now. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:13, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Right, that's me out for today, getting sleepy. Got a lot more caps to get off this Act 1 video, though. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:13, 3 June 2011 (CDT)

:I think if you see Sniper Wolf's PSG-1 it's part of Crying Wolf's death scene or Naomi's (I seem to recall there's an X button prompt when Otacon is getting upset about that whole thing where everyone he displays the slightest affection for dies instantly), which that doesn't have. Regardless, been a little busy, but should have some new caps up soon. I'm trying to get everything with a Browning M2, so IIRC I still need the Stryker MGS from Act 2, the Humvee in Act 3 and the derelict M1 tank in the hanger in Act 4. I'll finally be able to take that "Incomplete" down once I get a shot of Rex, Ray or one of ''Missouri's'' Phalanxes. Also might see if I can ID those two giant cannons on Liquid's boat, at least in a caption. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:10, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

::I was right, you ''do'' have an X button flashback there. There's also a painting of Big Boss holding his old Mark 22 in Big Mama's church, because it makes sense for one of those to be there. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:12, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

Having never had a chance to really pay attention to the Vamp / Raiden fight until now, I must admit I laughed my ass off at the part where Raiden has both arms pinned to his back and so blocks Vamp's arm and then throws him using only his teeth. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:36, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

Ok, going to be redoing all these caps soon (seen [[Dark Sector]] for why, comparing the new shots with the ones of the Spectre and G36; I've now got an official Sony component cable, so the red after-image from my third-party cable on the [[Bodycount]] page is gone). Going to be kind of "fun" trying to get the same shots all over again, I'll probably be updating all the basic weapon images tomorrow or so and then starting on recording the levels. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:53, 24 September 2011 (CDT)

:The things we do for this wiki . . . well, I'm glad you're willing to get more screenshots over something that isn't very visible on the thumbnails. Are you talking about the red-tinged edges that can be seen on some of your screenshots on the Bodycount page? That's known as chromatic abberration, but I can't see much of it on the MGS4 screenshots myself. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:01, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::Naw, the red was just why I was holding out for the Sony cable, that's why it isn't on the Dark Sector images (I now have it). The reason I'm going to replace these images is they're taken using a much lower-resolution capture device than the one I now have (a Pinnacle Dazzle rather than a Hauppage HD-PVR). You'll see the difference. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:45, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

OK, here's the difference:

[[Image:MGS4-1911Cus.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]
[[Image:MGS4-M1911Cus-HQ.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]
I'll resize the rest to 1280x720 or so rather than all of them being as big as that one, it's kinda unnecessary when they're only shown on the page at 600px anyway. The weird effect at full resolution is how the pause menu is actually supposed to look, to those not familiar with MGS4. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:50, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:YES. Better resolution is ALWAYS welcome. Looking forward to seeing more MGS "gun porn" in HD, as well as seeing some other issues resolved (such as whether the M10 and M60E4 are closed-bolt firearms in this game or their original open-bolt versions, just how Old Snake holds the M10 in a two-handed fashion with no foregrip, suppressor, or strap to put his offhand on, etc.). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:01, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::If Snake is holding the MAC-10 in a two-handed grip without the aid of an foregrip, suppressor, or strap, he would hold it in a Weaver-stance or a CAR-stance. I saw a screen shot of him using the MAC-10 and he held it in a Weaver-stance like a handgun while utilizing the stock, which makes good practical sense. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:28, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:I see. Regardless, I'm surprised that Kojima didn't slap on a "modernizing conversion" for the MAC-10 in this game, such as made available by [http://www.max-11.com/ Lage Mfg], which in short makes the gun much easier to handle by increasing the length of the barrel and handguard to add space for rails (and their accessories), a foregrip and folding buttstock, along with a mechanism that reduces the rate of fire to 600 RPM from 1100 RPM. This sort of conversion kit would essentially turn the MAC-10 into a close competitor for the HK UMP, except that this "MAX-10" version would be easier to instinctively reload since the magazine goes in the pistol grip. Too bad that the only .45 SMG in this game just isn't that good; whatever else can be said about the MAC-10, ergonomics were clearly not emphasized in its original design. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:45, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

::From what I know, the MAC-10 has inferior reliability compared to the UZI and pretty much any other SMG design. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:07, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

Just a couple of new images tonight, going to do the rest of this video tomorrow. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:44, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and here's Otacon explaining why the AK jammed:

[[Image:MGS4-Otaconsez.jpg|thumb|none|600px|"Also, there was apparently more than one cartridge in the chamber. That might have been a problem too."]]

[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:48, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:I think that's pretty cool he explains what possibly happened to the weapon, you don't get that in very many games. But it still doesn't explains ''how'' this happened to an AK, I could expect that from an AR, but an AK? Like I said on the page, Snake must have REALLY bad luck. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:25, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::Well, he's not the only one, I noticed at least one of the rebels struggling with the charging handle of his AK during the same sequence. It must just be ''really'' bad ammo. Maybe it's special ''Far Cry 2'' ammo made from blasting caps and dynamite. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:36, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::I think you just solved it mate. ;) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:20, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

Had a few problems with my footage being blurry (not in the shots I actually uploaded, mind) which I think is my old PC. A suitably beefy PC should be winging it's way to me in the next couple of weeks. :D [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:45, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

:I've already had my new beefed-up PC a couple of weeks. :D Now I'm counting down the days for BF3. >:B - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:09, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

::Then let us do as men have done for centuries and compare the lengths of our, um, computers. Mine's going to be an i7 2600K overclocked to 4.6 GHz, SLI 2 x 1,536 meg GeForce cards, 16 gigs RAM, 120 gig SSD + 3 terabyte data drive. I imagine it'll just be able to scare Crysis into running. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 23:05, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

== Screenshot requests ==

I know Evil Tim's busy, but this might be a good opportunity to let him know what screenshots might be appropriate to showcase each weapon.
*Five-seveN pistol: Old Snake commits "sexual assault" at gunpoint by holding up a FROG trooper with her own pistol while patting her down for items, along with the "crotch grab" move.
*MAC-10/G18C: Old Snake tries out for a movie of "Bonnie and Clyde" while performing a drive-by shooting from Big Mama's motorcycle.
*M4 Custom: For some reason, Old Snake has taken up the habit of shooting this carbine while holding it sideways.
*Shansi Type 17: Big Mama gets her awesome on by shooting up some Dwarf Gekko drones with her Type 17 pistol.
*MP7A1: Isn't there a PMC in Act 2 carrying this weapon who is distracted by a Playboy Magazine?
Sometimes funny screenshots make entries on this wiki all the more entertaining to read. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:09, 4 June 2011 (CDT)

*Might try that
*Almost certainly going to do something like that
*When does he hold it sideways, again?
*Yes
*Yes

Also, totally going to show how you can kill a Gekko with the SVD. Just a note: you don't have to call him Old Snake in every caption. The game only calls him that occasionally and he's "Snake" the rest of the time, and it's not like this is MGS1 and there's two people potentially called "Snake" (even in that case, they always call him Snake and his brother Liquid, so there's only minimal potential for confusion). I could see there being some issues with what to call Big Boss in 3, but this guy is still Snake. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:06, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

:I call him "Old Snake" because that's the name above his lifebar, and because that name clearly refers to him in the MGS4 time period. Of course, if you really want to be pedantic, it could be argued that Liquid Snake and Solid Snake should have called each other Liquid and Solid instead of Liquid and Snake (I think the latter combination was chosen because it sounds less silly). If you prefer to just call him Snake in the article, feel free to change that part pack. And Old Snake holds his M4A1 carbine sideways once when engaging the Pieuvre Armement PMCs who are taking Naomi away after headshotting Vamp. Another US Marine aboard the Missouri holds his M4A1 Carbine while trembling with fear as the Dwarf Gekkos execute a boarding action right outside the Missouri's bridge. That's all I can remember right now. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:37, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and if you want to show the Vulcan Cannons on the Missouri battleship, shouldn't you include the dramatic close-up shot of its CIWS cannons firing like hell trying to intercept the swarm of anti-ship missiles launched from Outer Haven? The one available now only shows the CIWS cannons in a distant shot. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:58, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:The one you're thinking of is a rather dull closeup of the installation from the ''rear'', I wanted this one because it shows the main guns and looks awesome. The Phalanx shots are exclusively taken to show off ''Missouri'', the installations can piss off. :P [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:15, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

Incidentally

[[Image:MGS4-M61-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Ray should not have been allowed to use the hydrocutter as it's opening attack. >:( Also, just noticed that half the "Street Fighter" attacks use the beak to grab Ray, even though it's where Snake is sitting and at least two of them would clearly kill him. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:08, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

== Question ==

Do real suppressors degrade like in MGS3 and MGS4? I think not, or at least it's ''very'' exaggerated in these game. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 11:50, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:old style wipe suppressors do degrade over time. Maxim type supressors and supressors designed after the 1960s don't degrade. You will have to clean them out after combat load but with the lenght of most computer games it should not be an issue as there isn't the time for junk to build up to the point where the supressor will fail. Basically if you take the time to clean you equipment every so often things should't go bad. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 21:32, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
::Thank you. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:45, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:Yep, suppressors in this game are another problem with its realism. The wipe-style suppressors in MGS3 would indeed degrade, sometimes after as low as 5 to 10 shots. Modern suppressors can last for thousands of rounds of semiautomatic fire, but less if fully-automatic fire is used.
:In reality, detachable suppressors fitted to weapons with supersonic ammunition (Drebin doesn't sell subsonic versions of normally supersonic ammunition, such as 5.56mm NATO, 7.62mm NATO, etc.) would not be as stealthy as depicted, especially at the ranges you fight at in this game. Try dropping a phone book from a height of 5 feet (or 150 cm in metric) onto a hard floor that is not covered by a rug or carpet--that's close to what even the best suppressors can do. At most of the ranges you shoot at in this game, real people would definitely notice (if not necessarily know where you are) and would immediately trigger a caution phase unless your first shot killed someone who was all by his lonesome. Suppressors can't deal with the sonic boom caused by supersonic ammunition, either, which can alert people. This is why the quietest suppressed weapons use subsonic ammunition (such as .45 ACP, or Russian 9x39mm ammo, etc.), or a special integral suppressor (like that on the MP5SD2) that slows supersonic ammunition down to subsonic speeds. Even that doesn't do anything for the clacking noises caused by the cycling of a (semi)automatic weapon's action, which is why the tranquilizer pistols in MGS2, 3, and 4 all use slide locks to eliminate that.
:Another problem is that suppressors, by slowing down the hot gas from fired rounds, cause a gun to overheat faster (because the slowed gas has more time to impart its heat to the weapon). Again, this is generally not a problem unless you forgo all fire discipline and keep firing in full auto; then you might have reason to detach an overheated suppressor and put a new one in place. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:08, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
Last ime I helped put rounds through a MP5 with a detachable supressor it took a bit for the supressor to cool enough that it could be removed from the barrel. Of course we put 120 rounds through it with mostly magazine dumps as we were just testing the guns funtion.[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 22:36, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Thanks guys. Well a suppressor is not meant to suppress gun fire so people in the same room can't hear it, it's meant so people in the whole building and in the city outside the building can't hear it. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:46, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

:Oops, forgot to mention that another way to remove the "clack-clack" sounds of a firearm's action (which can be louder than a suppressed gun's muzzle blast if the suppressor is good enough), aside from slide locks. Any type of round cycling that needs to be manually operated (such as bolt action, pump-action, etc.) will eliminate that sound. Too bad the DSR-1 couldn't be suppressed in this game; combined with its bolt action you'd get a very powerful, quiet, and lethal counterpart to the Mosin Nagant tranq rifle. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:45, 10 June 2011 (CDT)

== Just checking something ==

Of the M4, Drebin says "The barrel's free floating, of course." Now, you can see from the shot of Snake firing that even the ''handguard'' isn't free-floating, but isn't it a contradiction in terms for a direct impingement rifle to have a free-floating barrel since the barrel ''has'' to be touching something other than the reciever, namely the gas tube? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:08, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
:I hear of free-floating barrels on AR-15s all the time, I think "free-floating" means nothing but the receiver (and the gas tube) is holding the barrel in place. At least, that's what I know. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:36, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
It could be a bit of "Kojima nonsense" that snuck its way into the script (kind of like how Drebin claims the PMCs love to use the M4A1 Carbine, when in fact none of them do, and the game gives you the impression that Drebin is just foisting off old, obsolete stock onto Old Snake). After all, are we really supposed to believe that Fatman from Metal Gear Solid 2 built his first atomic bomb(!) at age 10? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:56, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
::I guess it could also be a translation error of some kind, since there's a few of those knocking around; I've just got to the first case of them mangling a symmetrical sentence by having Naomi alternate "fate" and "destiny" rather than just saying "it" the second time. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:41, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:Or it could be Kojima's notoriously inconsistent stance on the realism/unrealism scale, especially when it comes to weaponry. First in MGS2 they let us render any enemy limb useless in a single lethal weapon hit (a feature that never returned), but in that same game they let us use the Stinger Missile Launcher indoors (even though that kind of weapon would cause a cave-in or flooding in the Plant chapter). And now they ask us to believe that in some scenes, professional PMC operators can't hit Snake when he's in spitting distance (such as after he shoot Vamp in the head in South America). That scene might have worked if he was hiding some distance away using Octocamo, though. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:07, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and one more thing about the M4A1 in this game; why would you need to have a free-floating barrel on an automatic carbine? Wouldn't it just be simpler to insert a longer barrel, which would increase both accuracy and the bullet's effective range? Or, if you have the resources, you could always use better rounds (like the real life Mk 262) which have both longer effective range and accuracy than the standard 5.56mm NATO rounds in service now. That speech of Drebin's just makes him look like a "used car salesman"--it reeks of hucksterism. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:04, 21 June 2011 (CDT)

== Unknown pistol ==

Any idea what this is in Johnny Sasaki's leg holster? USP, maybe?

[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Unknown]]

[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:26, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

:Wow, even I'm a bit stumped, it's almost featureless. o_0 - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:12, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

::I was going by the features it doesn't have, more. It's got a horizontal base to the grip while holstered, which rules out any 1911-based pistol, but it doesn't have a beavertail bigger than the one on an actual beaver, so it can't be a Desert Eagle. It's obviously not any pistol that's available in the game unless it's a very small Mark 23, and a very small Mark 23 is called a USP. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:25, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

Also, am I hideously mistaken or is the Mk. 46 Mod 1 actually a Mod 0? The handguard doesn't look right for a Mod 1. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:01, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

:Based on what the model looks like it could be a featureless USP or P226 (it's too small for a Mark 23), but without the said "features" it's almost impossible tell what it is. It could also be just a generic "holster stuffer". :P (P.S. what's the deference between the Mk. 46 Mod 1 and the Mod 0, I've only seen the Mod 0?) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:59, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

::The forearm of the Mod 1 lacks the rail at the 12 o'clock position (FN Herestal has pictures of the Mod 1 on their website [http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF055&gid=FNG008]). There's probably other differences, but either Google is failing me, or there's no info about on the Mod 1 upgrades on the entire internet. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 18:48, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

:::[http://www.fnhusa.com/mil/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF059&gid=FNG008&mid=FNM0039 FN USA] says "improved receiver pins, a feed tray with retention pawls and a vented handguard with improved heat shield and three MIL-STD 1913 rails." Now, I've checked the reload animation and you can see it's got a 12-o-clock rail on the handguard, so it's a Mod 0. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

::Also, of those two it'd have to be the USP, the SIG would have two screws visible holding the grips on. What I can tell you is the shape is intentional; it's ''not'' the same model used in PMC holsters; the ones I checked have a diagonal base to the grip and therefore are obviously supposed to be a GSR. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:34, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

Just to add these:

[[Image:MGS4-FROG-Holster.jpg|thumb|none|600px|FROG holster weapon, probably Five-seveN]]
[[Image:MGS4-GSR-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|PMC Holster weapon, clearly GSR.]]
[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Another angle on Johnny's weapon, and one where they seem to have forgotten to add that delightful skidmark to his trousers, too.]]

Incidentally, ID'ing this one will take us up to 76 weapons with only one not ID'd (the land mine). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:25, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

But it doesn't have the finger tip-shaped slots at the mag well to be a USP ether... In the last pic of Johnny the pistol now looks like a stubby Desert Eagle because of the way the grip looks. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:53, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

:Well, there should be some closer shots of it when I finally get off my ass and get around to recording and capping stage 3, there's a lot of closeups of the Rat Patrol members at the end of that one that should settle it if it actually is something. Interestingly, Meryl also has that holster as part of her uniform, but hers is empty (Deagle the first has a horizontal chest holster). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 16:24, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol-3.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Think this is the best shot you're likely to get. Now, I'm going to bed, I just spent hours recording the entire third Act and at least half of the fourth and it's 3am. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:57, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:Looks kinda like a Desert Eagle with the beavertail milled down, wow this is hard. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 23:27, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

::Seems it's actually a Mark 23, since Raiden's character weapon (aside from a heap of pointy things) is a Mark 23, and he has the same holster. Holster looks to be very similar to [http://airsoftbb4u.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=402 one of these]. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 19:10, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:::You could be right, but still looks off from a Mark 23, I see a metal tang on the grip like the Desert Eagle. Err. -_- [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:04, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

::::Might just be a mistake in the model. It's certainly supposed to be a Mark 23 (it's Raiden's only gun in multi), but since they never draw them (unlike FROGs and PMCs, who do draw their sidearms if they're disarmed), there was probably no obligation to actually put a drawable gun in there. I can't remember if Johnny pulls out his sidearm when they're defending the door or not, I'll have to see if they'll actually settle it for us or not. Otherwise we'll just have to say it's an inaccurate Mark 23. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:09, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:::::Johnny does use his sidearm there. He uses a GSR. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:11, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

== Note about the M4 and the "big PMCs" ==
They ''did'' use the M4 in early builds of the game [http://ranger.gamebanana.com/img/ss/srends/thm__2863-.jpg] [http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o58/God-of-Reapers/metal-gear-solid-4-guns-of-the-p-1.jpg], but it was changed to the Mark 17 at some point for some unknown reason. Snake even got ''his'' M4 by taking it from a PMC in an early trailer. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:11, 29 June 2011 (CDT)
:Regarding the Patriot, wouldn't it fall under the same hideously ill-defined "PDW" label as the XM8 Compact? It does rather seem that PDW just stands for whatever your marketing department wants it to: HK definately called the XM8 compact a PDW in sales fluff, and invented the term because they didn't want to call their compact MP5K the MP5 Kurz Kurz as far as I can tell. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:14, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:On the subject of the M4: the article mentions that the handguard isn't free floating like Drebin says. However, I'm pretty sure the rail is carbine length KAC URX which is free floating. Also, the MP5K-PDW isn't a compact MP5K; it's an MP5K with a stock added. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 09:01, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

::Look at the shot of Snake firing the M4 into the camera and you can see there's a circular cap on the front of the rail handguard which contacts the barrel: a KAC URX doesn't have such a cap, which is why it's free-floating while this one isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:42, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

::Also the delta ring between the rail system and the receiver. URX mates with the receiver to form an uninterrupted top rail for optics. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 22:56, 24 November 2011 (CST)

PDW is indeed something of a term that is a bit too nebulous. I've even heard the term applied to the select-fire variant of the Mauser C96 being described as a PDW since it could mount a shoulder stock and used ammo that was "armour piercing." Still, the question I raised earlier on this page as to the point of mounting a free-floating handguard onto an M4A1 carbine remains--isn't a free-floating barrel mainly for sniper or designated marksmen weapons, not for CQB full-auto weapons? And wouldn't greater long-distance accuracy be achieved more simply by using a longer barrel or enhanced ammunition? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:09, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:With regard to free-float rails: there's more to it than just accuracy. Keeping the rails from contacting the barrel means that any accessories mounted on the weapon will be affected less by the vibrations that occur during firing. This helps keep vertical grips and the like from coming loose, and any optics/lasers/IR designators mounted on the forearm will have an easier time retaining their zero. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 15:12, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

Well, that does make a bit more sense, but it still sounds like the sort of thing a National Army wouldn't issue--though it wouldn't be out of place among civilians or Private Military Contractors. Don't National Armies train for accurate semiautomatic fire whenever possible from anything that isn't an LMG, and if you fire enough fully-automatic rounds to affect the zero of accessories mounted on the handguard, doesn't that mean you're doing something wrong? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:07, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

== XM8 Compact ==

Why is the XM8 Compact under the SMG/PDW section? PDW or not, 5.56x45mm should go to the Assault rifles. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 07:37, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, I was considering moving it to go with the Patriot. I'll do that tomorrow assuming someone doesn't beat me to it, and I'll remove "PDW" from the other heading since it's such a vague, useless class of weapons that seems to include everything gun company marketing departments feel like including from SMGs firing pistol rounds to compact assault rifles. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:37, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

I'm not sure about that; I think PDW is still useful to describe select-fire SCHV (small caliber, high velocity) two-handed firearms using proprietary rounds purpose-built for armour-piercing properties, like the 5.7x28mm, the 4.6x30mm, the 6.5x25mm, etc. that aren't (machine) pistols. Having said that, I would agree about how the label can be abused (the MP5K-PDW should have just received an "A" designation such as the MP5KA6 or the like). Still, I have to wonder if Akiba was given the XM8 Compact to show that Meryl "wears the pants" in their relationship--at a 9-inch barrel length, the XM8 (ultra)compact carbine is shorter than Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle, which is 10 inches long.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:08, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

:The trouble I have with the PDW label is either (a) it just means SMG so there's no point including it or (b) it includes all the stupid things that are called PDWs but aren't SMGs. Sure, the SCHV rounds aren't all used by pistols so not all PDWs are ''technically'' SMGs, but all PDW rounds are dimensioned like pistol cartridges and most have pistols designed and / or manufactured to shoot them anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:42, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

The funny thing is, if you really want to be pedantic, an SMG is really just a select-fire pistol-caliber carbine. In my view the PDW label is still useful for a narrower class of weapons than most users of the label think, and should only be used if the weapon meets all of the following characteristics.

*Proprietary PDW rounds are designed from the ground up as armour-piercing rounds (piercing Level IIIA ballistic armour or lower), and resemble miniaturized assault rifle ammunition (by virtue of its dimensions and spitzer shape) rather than traditional pistol ammunition. So by this definition the PP-2000 would not be a PDW since it's still using 9x19mm rounds, just in an armour-piercing configuration.
*A stock and foregrip must be present on the weapon for it to be considered a PDW, since both simplify aiming (which is very important in a CQB situation). So a select-fire Five-seveN or C96 are still not PDWs (instead, they are just armour-piercing machine pistols) since it lacks the ability to have both of those features. An MP5K PDW has both a stock and foregrip but doesn't meet the first requirement, and is therefore just a compact SMG with a folding stock and small foregrip.
*A true PDW must have select-fire or fully-automatic fire capability, otherwise it just becomes a fancy carbine like the PS90.

You have to admit that PDW is a more convenient acronym than something like SCHV SMG or the like. We could just go with something like "AP (armour-piercing) SMG" but that would bring stuff like the PP-2000 back into the mix. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:27, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

::Actually, an SMG is a super-light machine gun firing a pistol round: remember the category comes from the first world war before the concept of an intermediate round even existed. And the problem is most users of the label include most companies that say their weapons are PDWs; there's such a huge number of bad examples and so few good ones that it isn't really worth using it, IMO. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:42, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

:My google-fu's rather weak right now, but aside from H&K marketing derivatives of the MP5 and XM8 as PDWs I don't know of companies that are marketing SMGs or compact assault rifles with the PDW label, when in fact they don't meet the requirements I outlined earlier. Maybe you could point me in the right direction? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:32, 6 July 2011 (CDT)

::Wikipedia says the Jatimatic was marketed as a PDW back when HK invented the term, and since the 5.7mm has realised its friends would still like it if it came out as a pistol round anything that fires that is basically a subgun in the normal sense of the term. Magpul's PDR Shirow-gun fires a full-sized 5.56mm, the Chinese QCW-05 fires the 5.8x21mm pistol round, the VBR-Belgium PDW fires the 7.92x24mm pistol round...It's fair to say most things called PDWs don't qualify in the strictest sense. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:00, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:The "Shirow-gun"? And here I was thinking firearms designed for Ghost in the Shell at least made some sense, even if their service pistol caliber choice was a little iffy on the stopping power side (BTW, the Seburo Firearms page should not have been removed from this wiki). PDW rounds fired out of pistols seem a little iffy to me as well; if HK had to cancel its UCP for "inadequate ballistics in a pistol platform," what makes the Five-seveN/QSZ-92/VBR 7.92 Glock that much better? In any case, the Magpul PDR is just a compact bullpup carbine in 5.56mm NATO, and the 5.8x21mm round (how is this better than the 5.7x28mm round again?) is a miniaturized version of the Chinese 5.8x42mm assault rifle round, which makes it a PDW round. Maybe we could compromise and call them "CQDWs" for "Close Quarters Defensive Weapons" to show how they are meant to be stowed in "Close Quarters" and are most effective in CQB range as well, given their shorter cases compared to full-size assault rifle rounds? Making a poll on the forum asking whether or not the PDW label should be expunged from the site might be useful as well. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:23, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

::Again, though, I don't really see the point of using a label that's just going to cause a lot of confusion with not-examples and pseudo-examples. Anything that is categorised as a PDW in the strictest sense is basically an SMG firing AP ammunition. Not using the term rules out all the various pistols and assault rifles that would otherwise sneak into the SMG heading through the vague backdoor marked "PDW." It's sorta like having a category called "Dogs / mammals" next to one saying "cats" and expecting cats to not end up in the dog category. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

:I lol'ed at what you said about Akiba and Meryl. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:15, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

Yep, then Akiba tries to "man up" by getting the Barrett M82A2, but then finds he can't "last long." He definitely would have lasted longer if he had gotten something capable of "sustained fire" instead, like the Mk. 46 Mod. 0 coupled with an FN P90 of his own, so either he or Meryl could use the LMG for covering fire while the other goes out to loot P90 magazines from dead FROG troopers and keep wreaking merry hell as long as possible. But no, Kojima had to saddle Akiba with an incredibly impractical Barrett M82A2 (only really useful for killing larger Gekko drones and annoying unmanned Metal Gear RAYs), his old XM8 Compact and a GSR. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 17:23, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

== The MAC-10 in this game ==

Is it an open bolt (the original version) or a closed bolt version? An open bolt version wouldn't need charging after reloading, and wouldn't need to be racked unless the trigger was held down after the last round fired (after which you'd just pull it back to ready the weapon). If the MAC-10 in this game were a closed bolt version, then you would need rack the bolt if you were loading from empty and would indeed eject a round if one were still in the chamber if you racked the bolt. If Old Snake is ejecting a round from the MAC-10 after a mid-magazine reload, then wouldn't it be a closed version? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:27, 6 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'd have to check. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:09, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

Another thing you might want to examine is the M60E4; it's still an open bolt weapon last I checked (partly because open bolt weapons run cooler than closed bolt ones, an advantage on an LMG since it means you don't have to change barrels as often). Also, is the M60E4 supposed to be the "very latest model" that the rebel in the Middle Eastern Militia Safe House was boasting about? It would make more sense than an HK21E, since some PMC machine gunners use the M60E4 and it is "the very latest model" of its kind. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:45, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:Again, I'll check. In the latter case, I imagine the "very latest model" was probably supposed to be the XM8 LMG: it's the only version missing from the final game. Perhaps they gave the guy the HK21 instead because their playtesters would always kill him to get themselves a free 5.56mm machine gun with a built-in optic. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:30, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

Please do. Your considerable efforts on this page are much appreciated. But it wouldn't be the first time a game has used closed bolt versions of weapons that were originally open bolt; Rainbow Six Vegas 2 uses a closed bolt version of the MAC-11 machine pistol, for instance. And the XM8 LMG was always a strange one to me; while the other variants had good advantages for reliability and ease of use for their roles (since their sights didn't need zeroing, had more durable/reliable parts, along with infrared laser pointer/illuminators built into the sight), the XM8 LMG does not have a quick-swap barrel (unlike the M249, for instance) and is a closed bolt weapon which would make its heat buildup more problematic, despite the tougher barrel. In any case, all the game devs had to do to make the XM8 LMG would be to stick a Beta C-mag on the Marksman version of the XM8, since you can't use bipods in this game. The XM8 LMG would have been great in Johnathan's hands, and the standard carbine would then be given to Akiba. Even so, giving that boastful rebel an M60E4 would still require that you spend the money for accessories on a new game, so it wouldn't be as imbalanced as an XM8 LMG.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:34, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

== The "PMCs love the (M4)" line ==

In my edit I did NOT specify which voice track language I was referring to (for all I know, that line could also have been in the original JP version). What I was commenting on was how the recording for that scene was probably done before the decision was made to have the PMC guys use the SCAR-H rather than have them actually use the M4-type carbines (as seen in the preview images someone posted earlier). While not wrong to begin with, the fact that they didn't go back to re-do that scene based on the new weapon assignment leave me scratching my head. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 01:26, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, but it's hardly the only strange mistake made in that scene; Drebin also says it has a free-floating barrel even though there's clearly a circular end cap connecting the rail handguard to the barrel, and also that the US Army uses it even though in-game they don't. It's hard to say if it's something that used to be true, a mistake, or just Drebin playing salesman and hoping Snake doesn't notice the more obvious BS in his pitch. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:43, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:Just my personal observation, but I don't think Drebin's 'pretty popular with the big PMCs' line must necessarily mean that the M4 Custom is their standard-issue weapon. Maybe, in-universe, this version of the M4 is perhaps more like a weapon custom-made by the Drebins, and naturally sold exclusively by them. Perhaps he refers to veteran members of the PMCs buying them with their own fundings? Just my theory here, maybe I'm looking too much into it. --[[User:Researcher|Researcher]] 21:01, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

== Just found out something interesting... ==

HD remakes of all the previous games are apparently being released on PSN and possibly Live in November, so I'll hold out for them before screencapping those pages. Apparently they're going to sling in ''Peace Walker'' for PS3, too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:15, 9 July 2011 (CDT

:Are they going to retexture MGS2 and MGS3 for this collection? I hope so, because MGS2 is horribly bland with its textures, far more than MGS3 was. I'd do MGS2 myself, I don't have a capture card and the PC version I have is not well programmed for PC graphics cards, so you often end up with a lot of graphical errors. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 11:48, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

::From the sounds of things it's going to be retextured MGS2, retextured MGS3 and probably retextured Twin Snakes running in the MGS4 engine. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:02, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

:::That sounds cool. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:53, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

Last I heard it was only for the X Box 360. Good news that it's being released on the PS3 as well. Might mean that we're going to see it on the PC (fingers crossed). --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:10, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

== Drebins Camo Trousers ==
hi guys, wondering if anyone can tell me that make/pattern drebins trousers are, i mean obviously they are desert but im not sure what brand.

[http://images.wikia.com/metalgear/images/c/ca/DrebinMGS4.jpg] --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 10:48, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

Pattern would be something like "desert tiger stripe" and there's a similar-looking set of trousers [http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/original_desert_tiger_stripe.htm here]. His look to be bleached a bit lighter or something, but it's the same basic pattern. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:04, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

== A minor controversy over the Operator suicide scene ==

The English voice actor of Old Snake, David Hayter, caused a minor controversy among gaming journalists and the MGS fandom when he said he [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rH-cYUiogI didn't find Old Snake's reluctance to commit suicide to be believable]. Now that the relevant screenshot is in this wiki entry, I thought it deserved some explanation. In David Hayter's words, he says ''". . . Snake would put a bullet in, and put [the gun] in his mouth and just pop himself, like he's killed--he's killed how many countless thousands of people, and he's going to shake because he's going to kill himself? I didn't agree with that at all and begged them to change it . . . ."'' --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:05, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

:Hm, I don't really buy that. He's killed ''other'' people, sure, but confronting the end of your own existence and what might come next isn't going to be easy unless you're incredibly secure in your convictions as to what will happen (and Snake hardly strikes me as devoutly religious) or too stupid to comprehend that's what you're doing. It's not like it's a spur of the moment "I have to do this" thing, after all. Mind you, I really don't think we needed to see him going down on the Operator for quite as long as he did. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:45, 30 July 2011 (CDT)

Even so, I think he's used to fearlessly facing death, even if it's virtually certain (such as when he faced Metal Gear REX before Grey Fox intervened in MGS1, or during his hopeless duel with Fortune in MGS2). And "going down on the Operator"--that's a nice wordplay. Still, I think it's a little disappointing how what comes next is available at any difficulty--it would be more of an incentive to play on harder difficulties if you only got the complete scene after doing something such as completing the Boss Extreme difficulty or getting a Big Boss emblem. Otherwise, you'd only see:

*Old Snake smoking a last cig before fading to black and the last gunshot after finishing Liquid Easy.
*The scene where he sucks his gun off (again fading to black with the last gunshot) after finishing Solid Normal.
*A short cut after the final gunshot showing the gun and its smoking barrel in Old Snake's gnarled hand, fading to black after finishing Big Boss Hard.
*And the complete ending scene after finishing The Boss Extreme.

It would also have been a nice touch if you got to see the ghostly forms of all the people you killed throughout the game or the people Old Snake couldn't save (which means, at a minimum, Liquid Ocelot, Naomi and Big Mama) surrounding Old Snake in the cemetery as he puts the gun in his mouth, as he will join them in death very soon. Such a scene would be a nice reference to the Sorrow's River in MGS3. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:42, 30 July 2011 (CDT)

*I don't know, facing almost certain death is different to facing ''actual'' certain death, especially when it's for something as abstract as the human race rather than something as concrete as someone right in front of you. Also, in both those cases his other option was being killed by the thing he was facing, so he ''didn't'' pick the "certain death" option. Also, given Naomi's record for telling the truth, he's probably worried that shooting himself would just make the bullet ricochet off his superior genes, kill the person who was ''actually'' going to cure the disease and overpenetrate to also kill the world's most adorable kitten which was behind that guy. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:18, 31 July 2011 (CDT)

I think the best real world explanation on why Snake's Operator locked back when he had no mag was that he could have possibly pressed the slide release up and hence locking it back by accident. I've seen people accidentally lock the slide back when they accidentally push the slide release up with a loaded mag in. It could have just been the mistake of the animator that they drew a mag follower when there shouldn't have been a mag inside the gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:56, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

A buddy of mine told me that dropping a round into the chamber like what Snake did would really risk accidentally setting the gun off and he seriously tells me to never do that in real life for any gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:26, 24 November 2011 (CST)

::Hideo Kojima thinks so as well. He was forced to add that scene after the credits, I hear. In his mind, Snake did kill himself-protoAuthor 17:31, 24 November 2011 (CST)

"Also, given Naomi's record for telling the truth..." ...makes me facepalm at how proponents of the suicide ending stick to her claims of Snake becoming a biological weapon as if they're the words of Jesus himself. Seriously, if someone attempted to assassinate ''you'' with a biological weapon and that person later told you that you were in danger of ''becoming'' a biological weapon, would you really actually believe that person? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:14, 24 November 2011 (CST)

== Operator ==

I think Snake's main 1911 is closer to a TRP Operator than a standard MC Operator. It has a Target cut rear sight, full length guide rod, extended magazine well and front strap checkering. Standard MEUSOC 1911s like the MC Operator and the Kimber Warrior don't have these features. I know it's not a huge difference but I think it may be worth mentioning.
:I just realized that TRPs are usually bushingless. I think it's more of a frankengun with features from both but I still think it's closer to the TRP so I changed the picture. Hope no one minds.
::I think we'll stick with the MC, it's heavily modified from either regardless of what it originally might have been. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:57, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

== screenshots ==

I've taken some screen shots from MGS4 of most of the guns from a side on view I've uploaded a few as an example. The first is snake loading a cartridge into the breech of the thor, the second you can see the compensator working on the G18C, the third is snake screaming Rambo style. [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:THOR_breech_load.jpg]] [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:G18C_working_compensator.jpg]] [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:Rambo_Scream.jpg]]
I've got more like them if anyone wants me to upload them just want to see what you think. [[User:Whatmename|Whatmename]]

You couldn't have taken bigger screen shots? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:31, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:<s>Certainly doable, yes. I'm going to be re-doing all the other shots when I have some time off work next month, I'll pick those up at the same time.</s> Edit: oh, wait, that wasn't Excalibur asking me to take bigger ones. Nevermind, I'll take bigger ones of those things, Whatmename, don't worry about uploading yours. Best that every shot comes from the same capture device and method, it makes the page look tidier. Besides, we don't really need side-on shots of most of the weapons since we've already got the inventory images for that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:09, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

I think that screenshot from the G18C shows that the muzzle flash doesn't quite fit where the compensator port is supposed to be. I think the only video games I've seen that correctly emulate the compensated muzzle flash are Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 1 and 2. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:21, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

== M4 Custom RAS ==

Regarding the confusion regarding the RAS on the M4 custom.

The in game RAS resembles two offerings from KAC, the Carbine RAS and the free floating RAS.
[http://www.knightarmco.com/mod_weapons_1.htm Knights ArmCo RAS]

The carbine RAS replaces the standard handguards and is secured with the default delta ring and end-cap.
The free floating RAS replaces the entire handguard, including the delta ring; replacing it with a visually distinctive locking ring. The end-cap in not employed.

The in-game model has the locking ring from the free-floating RAS but the end-cap from the carbine RAS.

IMHO this was done so that the game engine wouldn't have to render the interior surfaces for the RAS and barrel.

:Given we have other errors due to using airsoft guns as models, I think it's more likely that they used an airsoft replica. A cheaply made plastic RAS might have issues with snapping off if it wasn't secured at both ends. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 18:47, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:Also, I'm going to be replacing almost every picture on this page with HD versions soon, so don't worry too much about new ones, it just gives me more work. Put any suggestions here or on my talk page. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 19:02, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

2012-03-13T01:18:37Z

Researcher: /* Mk. 23 Mod 0 */

== Airsoft 1911 ==
Are you absolutely sure the airsoft gun wasn't based on the gun in the game?-protoAuthor
:What are you talking about? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 04:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::You say the custom 1911 was based on an airsoft gun. Are you sure it wasn't the other way around?-protoAuthor
::I also agree that the gun isn't based off the one in the pic for that weapon. Aside from it being an airsoft gun, it is a compact version of a 1911 when Big Boss's 1911 was a fullsize. Also, the slide serrations are slanted wheras the ones on big boss's weapon were vertical like those on the original 1911. Neither one has anything to do with the other, I think the image should be removed.

the 'source' for the statement 'Big Boss's gun is based off a custom airsoft' is http://crimsonsguns.tripod.com/gameguns.html

However, I view this with a huge degree of skepticism. For starters, as mentioned, the barrel/slide seems to be longer on Big Boss's gun. But even if it is based on an airsoft gun, the airsoft gun itself is based on a standard real-world 1911 with real world features. So it's just one step removed from raw, hands on research. But then again, I don't think most game companies actually buy real versions of the guns they are modeling, they just look around for photos of them. It's like saying 'the model for the gun in this game isn't based on a REAL M-16, it's based on pictures of an M-16'

That 'source' mentions that the gun was produced by Sheriff Co. Given that Sheriff is mentioned in the MGS3 credits it's actually quite likely that it was in fact modeled off an airsoft gun. However, the one in the picture is obviously not the one in the game.--[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 19:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I know that Western Arms did an airsoft version of the MGS3 custom 1911 after the game was released. I wasn't aware of an airsoft gun like that existing before MGS3 was released. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 07:30, 2 July 2011 (CDT)

== DSR-1 ==

It can also be found in South America when following Naomi's trail, just follow the wrong footsteps from the point where you can also find hand trails. You will hear Naomi crying for help (from a radio) and a sniper will wait for you to come. She has the DSR-1 with her.

== In game pistures ==

Someone needs to post ingame pictures of the guns.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

this shot gun (http://www.gunsamerica.com/926290644/Guns/Shotguns/Ithaca-Shotguns/SxS/Ithaca_NID_New_Ithaca_Field_Grade.htm) looks alot like the "twin barrel" in the game.--[[Special:Contributions/184.35.22.22|184.35.22.22]] 22:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mark 23 Mod 1? ==
''According to the Metal Gear Wiki, the gun they used as a reference in MGS4 is actually an experimental "Phase 2" model that is currently undergoing testing by the US Navy.''

No, actually it says that ''the SOCOM presented in MGS1, MGS2 and MGS4 is in fact the Phase II model handgun submitted for trials in the USSOCOM Offensive Handgun Weapon System (OHWS) competition around the later part of 1991, and not the actual production model of the Mk.23 Mod 0''. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

::I wrote that -- the differences were the LAM, front serrations on the slide, markings, and the hammer looked different too. By the time the Mk23 was received in May '96, these details bad been changed; both for the military and civilian versions of the pistol. Overall, they're mostly aesthetic changes. -- Orca*

==Screenshots needed==

This page needs someone with enough effort to add pictures for all of these guns. -GM

:I can't do screencaps, but I did add some details about some of the weapons such as where they can be found and such. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 12:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:I would agree that a game with this many weapons would be much better with more relevant screencaps, especially ones without watermarks. More relevant information about the guns themselves would also be welcome.

==Why the strange biases towards certain weapons and calibers in this game?==

It seems odd to me why the weapon/caliber selection is so odd in this game. Metal Gear Solid has been one of the best game series to prominently display the real names of every gun in the game, but I have to wonder if some of those companies Kojima got permission from paid him to underplay the abilities of other guns in this game.

For the calibers, it seems mighty odd that the Glock 18c is the only 9x19mm pistol in the entire game. Not even the rebels or militia use older 9x19mm pistols, which is very odd because you'd think that of the vast majority of older pistols that escaped the worldwide mandatory ID lock systems that is mentioned in the game's backstory would be 9x19mm pistols. Not even something like a Beretta M9 is used by the PMC troopers, even though it would be a nice free choice to have in Metal Gear Online.

The game also strangely features 7.62x51mm Battle Rifles where they aren't the most appropriate, such as how the PMCs use the FN SCAR-H even in the confines of urban ruins (as in Act 1) or an intact city (as in Act 3). Only the South American countryside in Act 2 would be an appropriate location for those Battle Rifles in the hands of general troopers. You'd think that Kojima with his weaponry knowledge would give them assault rifles/PDWs/shotguns instead while in urban operations, but that's somehow not the case.

Did H&K and FN pay Kojima to include (and in turn, advertise) their products a great deal in this highly-anticipated and wildly popular game? FN has the Five-SeveN, the P90, the SCAR-H, and the FAL all in the game, while H&K has the SOCOM pistol, the MP5SD2, the XM8, the G3A3, and the HK21E. Colt products and their users by contrast don't get that kind of exposure--Colt M4s are rare, and Colt M16s are completely non-existent in this game. I also think it's telling that the FN P90 has its 50 round magazine, a combat sight, a flashlight and a suppressor, but its competitor, the H&K MP7 has only a red dot sight and is stuck with its 20 round magazine (not its upgraded 40 round magazine) according to this game just can't compete.

Contrary to what some posters on this wiki have said elsewhere, I don't believe this game is biased towards the latest and greatest weapons in general, as several weapons here such as the Vz. 83, the FN FAL carbine, the G3A3, the MAC-10, the Mosin Nagant, the PKM, the RPG-7 and the SVD Dragonuv are quite old.

Kojima definitely spent some time doing weapons research for this game, but did he ever come out with a reason as to why the game chose such odd additions to its arsenal? His personal favourite gun is the Barret M82, something not suited for general combat, so maybe he himself doesn't know as much as the ingame info might imply. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the same arguments could be said about any of the Tom Clancy games like Rainbow Six Vegas and it's whoring worth of H&K weaponry [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

It would seem to me that if HK and FN paid Kojima off to showcase (or "whore out", whichever you reading this prefers) their tech, weapons like the XM8 and SCAR-H wouldn't be seemingly outclassed by the M4. You can kit the M4 out with anything and everything, while the SCAR-H lacks a suppressor and grenade launcher (severely hindering its flexibility) and the only thing the XM8 gets is the grenade launcher. Heck, the M4 is pretty much a CQB, grenadier, and designated marksman carbine all in one package (and I typically use it as such, often foregoing the actual ''sniper rifles'' in the game in long range combat for the M4 equipped with an ACOG). If HK or FN had paid him off, it would seem logical for the M4 to be totally outclassed in-game by both the XM8 and SCAR-H. Not only those points, but the M4 and the 1911s (I say 1911s collectively because cutscenes seem to automatically replace every non-1911 pistol in your inventory with the Operator) are implied to be Snake's signature weapons this time around. If he were paid off, why aren't the Mark 23 and XM8 or Five-Seven and SCAR-H his signature weapons? Also where's the PSG1, the so-called "greatest sniper rifle in the world" (or so HK says)? And I also feel the urge to point out that the HK21E has '''0''' modifications for it as well as a ridiculously slow ROF, which makes the M60E4 ''clearly'' superior to it. Now, I'm not exactly ''defending'' either company here, but it just seems to me that if they had paid Kojima off, the biases pointed out here would be far more extreme. As it stands, I just think Kojima wanted the weapons he likes the most to be the ones players used the most. Regarding the "old" weapons in the game, they may have seen a few years, yes, but FALs, G3s, Dragunovs, PKs, and above all the RPG-7 are so ubiquitous today that we'll be seeing them on modern battlefields, ''especially'' ones in the Middle East, for decades to come. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, now that I've spent some time thinking about it, the M4 and M1911 in MGS4 may not actually be Colt products at all. After all, didn't a court decision in real life rule that an M4 is a type of firearm and not a Colt trademark at all? It's kind of like how an "M1911-style pistol" is also a type of pistol, not a Colt trademark which is why there are dozens if not hundreds of kinds of "M1911-style pistols" for sale on the general market today. I wonder if Kojima asked Colt to use their trademarks and got rebuffed for whatever reason, which might have caused him to withdraw the M4s from the PMCs and substitute FN SCAR-Hs until someone told him he could just call it an M4 (though not a Colt M4) and avoid copyright infringement.

:On the issue of customizability, I think the M4's customizability compared to, for instance, the XM8 and FN SCAR-H is a bit of laziness on the part of Kojima. I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't just stick the M14 EBR's suppressor model on the end of the FN SCAR-H or G3A3 and turn those two into suppressed firearms, for instance. They could have also stuck the M4's suppressor model onto the AK-101 or XM8 as well (in my opinion the XM8's integral red dot sight in MGS4 is easier to use than the M4's, being a great deal less claustrophobic than the M4's version). Something like the FN EGLM would have been nice on the SCAR-H (or the SCAR-L had they bothered to give the PMCs assault rifles in urban areas) but unlike the M320 or GP-30, would only have gone on one weapon (unless the SCAR-L was included) and possibly not have been good on the cost-benefit analysis. But my point, that the customizability of many of the weapon systems (where are the PSO-1 scopes for the AN-94 and AK-102, for instance?) is more an artifact of the design decision than the reality of the weapons in question. Of course, even with the full "real-life" customizability, the M4 would still be the only one capable of carrying an underslung shotgun, which I think is unique enough (though I bet the XM8 could have gotten one had it been adopted, and I'm sure one will be designed for the FN SCAR models if it proves itself in the field enough).

:Oh, and one of the reasons why you can snipe with the M4 is because the game over-emphasizes headshots and doesn't implement ballistic physics for bullets. If it did, bullet drop would come into play (especially since the M4's short barrel means that less velocity and energy is imparted to the bullet, resulting in less effective range), moreso with the M4 than the FN SCAR-H or M14 EBR for instance. I think the game would have been more fun if helmets were stronger (for instance, 5 helmet hits from most pistol weapons to kill, 3 helmet hits from 5.56mm weapons to kill someone, or 2 7.62x51mm/PDW ammunition hits, or 1 9x39mm/shotgun slug hit), forcing the player to aim for the exposed face or neck to guarantee a one-hit headshot kill).

:I only mentioned those weapons as "old" so as to defuse claims that Kojima was only focussed on the "latest and greatest."

:It would have been nice if a PSG-1 and FAMAS (both weapons used in MGS1) showed up in the game for old time's sake, but that was not to be. Still, that doesn't resolve the question of why HK's PDW (the MP7A1) is so inferior to FN's PDW (the P90) in this game. Even the wikipedia image of the MP7A1 shows it with a suppressor and 40 round magazine, along with custom optics. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

::Play on a higher difficulty level. The strength of the PMC's helmets varies. On the easiest level, a single 9mm round will punch through. On the highest level, it takes a couple of rounds of 7.62 NATO to punch through. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

One imagines a general switch from assault rifles back to battle rifles would occur in a world where you might reasonably expect to encounter extremely tough infantry armour or power suits; given the nature of the PMCs as private entities, being "equipped for anything" is probably a selling point. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:23, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:Sure, but if you're really "equipped for anything" you'd issue what's needed for the environment. And the PMCs in Act 2 (South America) still use the SCAR-H CQC even though in open countryside that barrel length is more of a liability than anything else. Even the Leftist insurgents are using full-size G3A3s in that stage. In a battle rifle, the shorter the barrel, the more of the cartridge's energy goes to waste as useless muzzle flash and sound. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:09, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

::To be fair, Pieuvre Armement also have more support weapons than any of the other PMCs (snipers, HMGs, grenade launchers, and a lot of mounted guns) and it looks like they were primarily hired to defend key government structures rather than fight it out in the open. Perhaps with the SCARs they just got a bulk discount, or given it's a private entity it could just be one of the directors like the look of the weapon / someone was impressed by the salesman's spiel / someone was sleeping with someone else / whatever. Out of game, it makes some sense; it means you only need one set of gestures coded for NPC / rifle no matter what level they're in. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:19, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:If Kojima's aim was to make the FN SCAR-H a "this is one of the signature enemy NPC guns" type of thing, then that does make some sense, but that doesn't even cover how many Pieuvre Armement troopers can be found patrolling in the open, sometimes ambushed by Leftist insurgents, or the lack of customizability options for the FN SCAR-H.

:Furthermore, if Kojima and his team could afford the time and money to put the KAC Masterkey on the M4A1 Carbine (an accessory that can be mounted on no other weapon in this game) you could just as easily do the same kind of work and stick an FN EGLM grenade launcher to the SCAR-H (it uses the same swing-out cylinder as does the M320 grenade launcher, so the animations would be largely the same), to say nothing of a suppressor or the LSS underslung shotgun for the XM8. And why not rip off the Mk. 14 Mod 0's suppressor to use on the SCAR-H, G3A3 or the FAL carbine? Before you tell me "they don't have barrel threading," neither does Snake's Operator pistol, his very first suppressed lethal weapon. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:31, 30 May 2011 (CDT)
::Uh dude, Snake's Operator does have a threaded barrel, did you even look at the pics... - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:41, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:I stand corrected, the thumbnail made the threading blend together into a featureless grey. Regardless, my other points stand. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:55, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

I think the idea was to make players want to use the M4 over other weapons (I guess to emphasise it), so the SCAR couldn't be as good as it. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:07, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

Noteworthy is the fact that the Masterkey in reality doesn't come in a rail-mounted version like is shown in-game. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:44, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

== Mk. 23 Mod 0 ==
I just have to ask this; why does Snake like using the H&K Mk. 23? I mean, from everything I've heard/read about them, the USP compact tactical variant is much better, so why doesn't Snake use that?--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 16:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

He uses it because the designers wanted him to use it. And if you've ever shot a Mk23 you'd know that it is vastly superior to the entire USP series in every possible way other than weight and weight shouldnt be an issue you're looking for a combat handgun.
-Double Agent M

:Um, yes, weight ''is'' an issue in a combat handgun. Weight is ''always'' an issue when it comes to the weapons and gear used by soldiers. That's why the Mark 23 ''failed'' as a combat handgun and lavished on supply shelves instead of inside holsters like the various 1911 makes and even the entire USP series. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now on the HK Mk. 23's page, but since this was brought up, I might as well ask it here: why ''was'' the Mk. 23 made so big and bulky in the first place, if its performance could have been replicated in the smaller USP series? It's close in size to the Desert Eagle despite firing a smaller (and more combat-practical) cartridge. Was it to ensure ruggedness, resistance to salt water damage, and reliability? Or something else? It's always puzzled me about this pistol that is one of the signature weapons of the Metal Gear Solid series (making appearances in 1, 2, and 4). Of course, it could be that Kojima just thinks it's a "cool gun" . . . --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 20:59, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Its weight helps counteract recoil, the elongated barrel improves accuracy, and right out of the box it can be fitted with a suppressor and a LEM. It's bulky enough so that if you need to you can beat a man to death with it. It's a fantastic combat handgun but where it loses out to Berettas and Colts is in complexity. Because of it's raw size you cant just whip it around and the controls can take some getting used to. It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm.
-Double Agent M

:Supposedly the USP Compact Tactical can mount a suppressor and Laser Aiming Module, but only has 8 rounds in .45 ACP. Also, as a "Offensive Handgun Weapons System," the SOCOM pistol supposed to be usable as a primary weapon when killing is supposed to be done discreetly, such as many situations in the Metal Gear Solid series. On paper I can see why it's better, but if the hands-on experience of operators deems it as "uncomfortable to carry and use," then their complaints trump the on-paper benefits.

:Of course, "uncomfortable" and "hard to use" is a bit of a relative term, since training and practice can certainly acclimatise someone to almost any well-designed weapons system, but that takes time, money, and perseverance. Given that handguns are hardly a primary weapon system anymore, and the majority those who do professionally use them as such (such as average beat cops) don't train with them to be expert shooters most of the time, I suppose ease of use is a major factor because it's the easier way out instead of spending time to get used to a better-on-paper but less-user-friendly weapon. If "better-on-paper" mattered more, wouldn't the FBI be using Glock 20 pistols instead of Glock 22 pistols? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 16:48, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
:::I agree with you. :) But I'd still love to get a hold of one and try it for myself. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:: "It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm." <-I love this kind of thing. Sure, a pistol that's a foot and an half long with a suppressor and weighs as much as an empty MP5 is a much better compliment to your primary weapon than it's weight in extra magazines ''for'' that primary weapon. Think you needed to lay off the HK propaganda there, "Agent M." To actually answer the question, they used the Mk23 because it's huge and blocky (same reason Meryl got that 50 AE Deagle), so it's easy for the player to see it in Snake's hands and for the PS1 to render it. Simple as that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:42, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:::I've heard from a lot people who actually own MK 23s and they say that their excellent weapons (and no, it was not "HK propaganda"). - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

::::From what I've heard, they're excellent weapons in terms of accuracy (which comes from being gigantic and heavy) but not something you'd want to take into combat; they're too big for a backup weapon and not capable enough as a primary weapon. Also, anyone who drops the cost of a Mk23 on a pistol is going to have thought it was an excellent weapon ''before'' they bought it, otherwise they never would have done so in the first place. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:56, 24 May 2011 (CDT)
:::::I would buy one, but hey, a four pound .44 Magnum revolver feels like nothing in my hands, and I'm only a medium-sized guy with not much of a build. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:43, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

:::::Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but is it me, or the MK 23 is listed in the menu as actually much lighter than it is IRL? Maybe that's why it is so popular in the MG universe... --[[User:Researcher|Researcher]] 20:18, 12 March 2012 (CDT)

== Meryl's Desert Eagle ==

Just how "combat-effective" would the ballistics of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle be? What might the effective range be, and would it regularly penetrate the body armour of the FROG troopers she faces? Or would she be better off with an 40-round MP7A1 (to go with the theme of "biggest to smallest" weapons of the Rat Patrol) when fighting the FROG troopers in Advent Palace and Outer Haven? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

*I've got an Airsoft Desert Eagle (bought many years ago, mind) that came with both barrels, and it's weighted to the point you can see what a bad idea it is: it's ridiculously front-heavy with that barrel extension, and I imagine with a scope as well it'd probably weigh as much as the MP7 anyway. So maybe it could penetrate body armour and maybe it couldn't, but you'd still have better ergo from using a 1911 duct-taped to the head of a banjo. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 09:21, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:Okay, so that Airsoft model exactly duplicates the loaded weight of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle? That's rather interesting. Even if it couldn't penetrate the body armour the FROGs seem to be wearing, would the impact force be enough to inflict blunt trauma on the FROGs, such as broken ribs, concussions, or the like? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:15, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Well back when I did Airsoft, I played for functionality and being simple. Sure my team and I decked out our guns, but nothing more than red dot sights, and vertical grips. Because it isn't real firearms, we tried to not equip like we would a real weapon because it's not the same thing. Lighter is always better. The less we have to carry, the better. That being said, I would never get an Airsoft Desert Eagle to shoot in games. For fun, yeah. It'll be cool to run around the woods with the 10in barrel and a scope mounted on it, but you wouldn't get any good range with an airsoft pistol anyway, even if it is gas powered. Now a REAL Desert Eagle, I'd get for fun, but that's only after I get my more practical guns first.

Anyway, I think from a character standpoint, Meryl's character is supposed to be a "tough chick" so what's the iconic tough guy gun? A Desert Eagle from the action movies. I don't know if the .50 AE could go through body armor [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:42, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:Yeah, I just use it for plinking spiders because I have a high ceiling. Bought it because I was a teenager and it was a Desert Eagle, I will make no excuses on that front. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 10:48, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

::lol, I also bought a Airsoft Desert Eagle when I was a teenager and I still have it. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:50, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

:::Well, living here in Comrade Elizabeth's Glorious People's Republic of Englandstan makes it easy to hang on to it since if I'm reading this correctly I couldn't legally sell it anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:13, 25 May 2011 (CDT)

::::lol. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 07:49, 25 May 2011 (CDT)

:Well I admit before I knew anything about the M16, I was very anti-gun kid in early high school. Then when I got to know guns, I thought the M16 is this Vietnam piece of crap that jams all the time and the AK is the ultimate assault rifle until I grew up and got a more objective view of guns. When buying my first Airsoft, I bought a P90 cause I was a fan of Stargate...then I discovered a P90 Airsoft is useless, inaccurate and has terrible range. So I went and bought an M733, and then realize that you need a longer barrel for range and accuracy and that evolved to my M4 type rifle. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:59, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

One more thing; does the reloading style Meryl uses in the fight inside Outer Haven's computer room have a name (where she jams one of her magazines into the crook of her knee while firing with her other hand, before reloading an empty Desert Eagle with the magazine held in her knee)? I see so many adds for shooting schools with patented styles around I have to wonder if this comes from one of them. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:11, 21 June 2011 (CDT)

== Tanegashima rifle ==

Why isn't it on the page?

:Thanks to Evil Tim's hard work, it is now on the page. However, there's something that remains to be investigated; I've heard conflicting reports about whether or not the Tanegashima arquebus will always fire its "divine wind" (translated version of the Japanese word "Kamikaze") tornado if you fire it in the opposite direction of the wind in a singleplayer level. That could be something worth looking into. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:15, 2 June 2011 (CDT)
::I'll check up on that; I'd just heard it was a one-third chance per shot. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:51, 2 June 2011 (CDT)
::Nope, nothing to do with the wind direction, I tried with and against the wind, and in the end it just went off at random like usual. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:17, 3 June 2011 (CDT)
:I see it was just a rumour then. Still, I'm puzzled as to why you didn't take a screenshot highlighting the extreme silliness of the weapon; it would have been worth a chuckle to see a screenshot of PMCs caught in the tornado flying in a spiral while dropping far more items than they could ever carry in real life while collecting their "frequent flier miles."--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 12:57, 4 June 2011 (CDT)
::Well, I accidentally selected Solid Normal rather than Big Wuss Easy, and it's hard enough getting the Tanegashima to do its thing normally, nevermind trying to check how it's affected by the direction of the wind while being shot at. I'm doing enough stupid things to burn through rations as it is :D [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:58, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:I see; I guess not all of us have the time to learn how not to get shot up less in this game (here's a tip; going prone or crawling is the best way to use your Octocamo). Would have been nice to see PMCs flying in a big spiral anyhow on this wiki. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:43, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
::Well sure, I can be pretty sneaky when I'm not doing stupid things like seeing if I can get a Gekko to throw a grenade at me. Same as I'm trying to avoid wearing the Octocamo hood even though it's good for your camo index, because it also makes Snake look really stoopid. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:42, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

== Someone needs to finish this page ==

This page is how old and no one has finished it? Someone needs to start doing it.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't have this game and it's a chore to get all the screenshots second hand [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I've got a much better capture device than I used to, so I could probably do this at some stage; the main problem is I'd have to record it first (since the software with the Dazzle crashes every time I take a screenshot and BSODs the entire computer if I try to take more than one); I'll have a crack at it next time I'm off work. Don't want to just stand in a corner looking at the same thing for every gun, that makes for dull page. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 09:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

:Please do. Stealth camo would be useful to take screenshots of weapons in the hands of NPCs (such as the MP7 or the like). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

::Still on this. It's going to take a while before I have time (especially since I'll need to record some of those billion hours of cutscenes), but I haven't forgotten. I'll probably get Twin Snakes and cap the whole series, since doing PS1 MGS1 without first-person aim mode for caps would be a bit pointless. "Look, Snake has a FAMAS! Down there in his hands...oh just click on the damn image and press your nose right up to the screen." Only thing I really need from that is a comparison shot of the Abrams, since the original game's one had two M2 Brownings instead of one. Also I've got an MGS2 trailer somewhere showing Snake with a FAMAS, so I'll have to add that to the 2 page. I'm hoping I can find a picture of the wooden prop version of Fortune's railgun that they built for motion capture. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:31, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:Good to know. I'm looking forward to a full version of this page. I would have finished the MGS2 page myself, except that the PC version I have (the official KONAMI port) is somewhat poorly optimized, with some textures missing or improperly rendered (and what do you mean, KONAMI, that we can't use the mouse to aim in FPV or duplicate the pressure sensitive button functions from a PS2 controller with a keyboard?!). Also, the FAMAS in MGS2 is only usable on the demo version of MGS2 (though it does show up in some cutscenes in the Plant chapter for some strange reason). Did they reuse the MGS2 Demo FAMAS for the Twin Snakes? Perhaps you can find out. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:54, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah, that'd be worth checking. I heard GIAT (it was still GIAT back then) got very precious about their intellectual property after they realised people wanted to put the FAMAS in games (they're the same about model companies and the LeClerc, Tamiya had to stick their logo and "officially endorsed" on the box of their LeClerc kit) and I think that's why Konami pulled the FAMAS from 2 and never had it turn up again even in 4. Probably they couldn't say no to using it in a remake since they'd already said yes the first time. I've still got the demo of 2 (only reason anyone bought ''Zone of the Enders'', after all) and the FAMAS isn't in that either; it goes from the start of Tanker to the end of the boss fight with Olga, and only gives you the M9 and USP. It was only ever in the early trailers showing Snake on the Tanker. I heard there's some other changes like the guys in the Warhead Storage room using ring airfoil rounds rather than just instakilling you with a radiation leak if you were spotted. Also, you didn't miss anything with the pressure sensitive buttons, trying to half-hold the fire button to aim a rifle in first person was terrible. Apparently the "Tanegashima" is a Japanese copy of a Portugese arquebus design (sayeth Wikipedia, anyway), so I'll have to add that to the page too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:19, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:Well, copyright is a sticky situation (go look at one of my earlier comments here and notice how there are no Colt products in this game, despite the presence of an M4A1 Carbine and an M1911). Ubisoft got around it because the FAMAS appears in Rainbow Six Vegas 2 by its real name, so why not MGS4? And I was wrong; the FAMAS is coded within the MGS2 demo, but it is only accessible [http://youtu.be/MxfMCXcpGx8 via a code]. And actually there are a few uses for the pressure-sensitive buttons in MGS2--without them you bang your head against a locker ventilation grille when trying to look out, alerting any nearby enemies. You also can't aim an assault rifle without the pressure-sensitive controls, which made controlling them on the PC next to impossible. Another problem is you can't lower a pistol without firing it if you don't let go of the aiming button gently (I got around this on the PC version by unequipping my weapon). Finally, the distance you throw grenades is determined by how hard you press the pressure-sensitive button (but they were almost useless anyway since throwing a frag or flashbang grenade automatically causes an alert upon detonation and frags have a small damage radius). All this made for a frustratingly bad PC port, which is why I caved in and got the PS2 version afterwards. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:20, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Well, made a start before realising I'm going to have to crop the borders off every image by hand. :( Ah well, they're just placeholders anyway just so we can get rid of the IGN watermarks and have actual game images. For now they can keep the borders and I'll replace them all when I do this page properly. I hope you appreciate my sacrifice, I had to uninstall Vanquish to get these. Stupid 40 gig PS3. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:35, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

Good work so far Tim. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:40, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

*Ok, I'll put up the explosives later today (since we don't have them at all). I'm fairly sure the railgun qualifies as reasonably believable; it was actually built as a physical object (a wooden MoCap prop) and looks like an XM25 that's eaten its Wheaties. And then everyone else's Wheaties. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 23:29, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

Anyone remember where the PMCs with standalone Masterkeys show up? I think it's somewhere in Act 2, but I can't remember if you have to cause an alert or if they're just ahead of where I stopped recording (partway through Confinement Facility). Also, don't worry, the shots aren't all going to be from Act 2. Also added a spoiler warning since, well, I can hardly ''not'' have a shot of A Certain Person holding the Patriot, and the fourth Act being on Shadow Moses is kind of a spoiler too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:07, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:There's definitely at least one in the Confinement Facility, check out about 10:50 of this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg87rbI3CXU#t=10m50s], there's a guard with one who shows up with one at the right edge of the screen (pretty sure he always respawns there with a Masterkey). --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 15:27, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

::Naw, that's an XM320, he's one of the pair I've got a shot of in that section. You can hear a "phut" rather than a shotgun blast when he fires. But I know there's people with standalone Masterkeys somewhere, because I remember being puzzled at why on earth you would create such a thing. (edit) Ah, MG Wiki says there's one at the gate of Vista Mansion. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:Also, considering all the shit that fits inside Metal Gear Mk. 2 (50 Stingers, 50 Javelins, 50 LAWs, a Barrett, a railgun the size of a pony, etc) why does it never occur to Snake to hide inside it himself? I know they kind of joked about it with Snake being able to pocket a drum can that's bigger than he is, but still. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:36, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

It's called a "Hyperspace Arsenal." I would be all for a realistic mode that forced you to carry guns that are too big right from the beginning of a mission rather than have them delivered by the mini-Metal Gear, or have you collect them after a period of time after "requesting" them at a cache location dropped off by Drebin, or else only be able to transfer/launder/buy ammo just after meeting Drebin in cutscenes. Still, that wouldn't address the other realism issues this game has, such as how the NPCs are indestructible--shouldn't shooting them with .50 BMG weapons or high explosives blow off limbs or reduce them to ludicrous gibs? And what about the octocamo system; wouldn't the human eye only be realistically fooled if Snake was hiding in foliage or else, quite some distance away, lest the enemies spot his outline and start shooting at Snake?

In any case, do you think you could also include tidbits on which guns need to be laundered and which don't need to be? It'd be a nice tidbit, since the entry already includes which guns are available in multiplayer and which aren't. I'm very much looking forward to seeing more great screenshots of this game's guns--do you think it'd be possible for you to equip stealth camo and enter First Person view so we can see NPCs with holding their guns up close?--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 14:06, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:I'm afraid I don't have stealth camo (I can never resist firing LAWs at Strykers :() but I tend to prefer wider shots with things actually going on in them; just focusing right in on the gun makes the page rather dull to look through, IMO (I ''hate'' those CoD page images with everything cropped out but one corner of the screen; just imagine if you took the shot of Dirty Harry holding his revolver in the "do you feel lucky?" scene and cut out everything but the revolver). Also, I'm fairly sure the player and world models for weapons are exactly the same in this game. Still, it's not that hard to get close when you're recording video rather than taking individual screenshots, and it's even easier to get close to the totally broken Raven Sword AI in Act 3. Plus you can get great views of almost all the PMC weapons in cutscenes anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:53, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

I didn't mean cropping the images so that only the guns are visible; I was just saying that with Stealth camo you could get within punching (or kissing) distance of the various NPCs in the game so you could get good pics of them holding their weapons without the annoying black-screen parts from scopes or the HUD marks in the centre of the screen if you use Snake's binocular's or the mini-Metal Gear's camera view. Also, could you please please please make a screenshot of the FROG firing her DSR-1 at Big Mama followed by the latter's "I'm fine" despite not wearing any body armour? I find it one of the more unintentionally hilarious parts of the game. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 16:15, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:I'll be sure to get that, yes. Though for me the funniest sequence was the part before the "guns of the Patriots" part, where the US Army were pointing guns at Liquid Ocelot's boat and making clicking noises for so long it became ridiculous. Of course the Foxdie scene was funnier, but probably intentional (Snake and Liquid do the "Fox..." "...Die" bit, Liquid Ocelot jumps up and runs away cackling ridiculously and Snake responds by falling over). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

Heh heh, it's funny how after the "Guns of the Patriots" scene, Drebin's prices fall flat on their faces with a permanent 50% discount until the end of the game. Of course, that raises the question about why Drebin's prices never go up; wouldn't the complete lock-out of ID-locked firearms mean that the services of gun launderers like Drebin would be more in demand than ever (resulting in a huge price increase), even if just to keep the Rebels who use naked guns from killing all the ID-locked gun users? It's just another entry in the long list of this game's realism problems. And of course, the first FOXDIE scene is another manifestation of how wrong it was to let Kojima direct the game, since he's so firmly stuck in MGS1's shadow the plot of MGS4 is so firmly stuck in the first game's mold. Of course, that's got nothing to do with the weaponry in the game, but I'm still looking forward to this page's completion nonetheless. By the way, have you seen Ocelot's "THINK AGAIN!" ability in Metal Gear Online yet?--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:47, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

:I must admit I've never played MGO. As for Kojima, I think he was at his best in MGS3 when he was making a tribute to something he loved (the old spy movies that had inspired the series in the first place, with their cool gadgets and ridiculous villians) and he's at his worst when he's trying to force out a game he seems to have regarded as his obligation; I remember that he didn't really want to be involved in 4 and only came back on board after the fans raised a stink about his being absent. He strikes me as a lot like Lucas, who was great when he was making a tribute to the old-fashioned sci-fi he grew up with and hideous when he was left making something he didn't really care for except as a way to make money. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:57, 1 June 2011 (CDT)

Funny that you mentioned George Lucas. I have to wonder whether or not Kojima took some inspiration from Lucas when he decided to make his newest, completely over-referenced MacGuffin: nanomachines that do almost everything, from track biological functions to serve as ID keys, even form the basis for mind control or emotional manipulation. Kind of reminded me of Lucas' "midi-chlorians," since the two of them are both blood-borne squiggly things. Oh well, the fans, like everyone else, don't always know how what they want isn't necessarily what they need. And even the greatest of us can succumb to "Creator's Conceit," whereupon one starts believing in the delusion that "because I made this best-selling piece of media, I can change it however I want, heedless of the needs of believability, plausibility, realism or even my own previous work." Ocelot's "THINK AGAIN" ability in Metal Gear Online can be seen in full force [http://youtu.be/XM7yc5Gf_OU here]. You should give Metal Gear Online a try if you have the money; its training mode is great for taking pictures of the unique characters and their weapons, and it is the only mode where you can use the ballistic shield, or hear the various multiplayer characters do their Rambo impressions while firing an M60E4. Once again, a hearty thank you for your hard work. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:26, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

:I think I'm immune to stupid depictions of nanomachines after playing the two ''Deus Ex'' games, expecially the second one where you apparently have a nanoforge in every weapon that makes the relevant ammo type out of a universal base material ''as you fire''. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:53, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

:Also, I'm trying to remember: I know there's no flashback of Vulcan Raven, but wasn't there one of Sniper Wolf that showed her PSG-1 at one point? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:59, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

::The various flashbacks in Act 4 can be found [http://youtu.be/81A3yb_FATg here] and [http://youtu.be/aznWCpBYkKQ here]. You can check those out at your leisure. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 12:50, 4 June 2011 (CDT)

:::The links you're posting don't work [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:59, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

::Pardon me, they're fixed now. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:13, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Right, that's me out for today, getting sleepy. Got a lot more caps to get off this Act 1 video, though. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:13, 3 June 2011 (CDT)

:I think if you see Sniper Wolf's PSG-1 it's part of Crying Wolf's death scene or Naomi's (I seem to recall there's an X button prompt when Otacon is getting upset about that whole thing where everyone he displays the slightest affection for dies instantly), which that doesn't have. Regardless, been a little busy, but should have some new caps up soon. I'm trying to get everything with a Browning M2, so IIRC I still need the Stryker MGS from Act 2, the Humvee in Act 3 and the derelict M1 tank in the hanger in Act 4. I'll finally be able to take that "Incomplete" down once I get a shot of Rex, Ray or one of ''Missouri's'' Phalanxes. Also might see if I can ID those two giant cannons on Liquid's boat, at least in a caption. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:10, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

::I was right, you ''do'' have an X button flashback there. There's also a painting of Big Boss holding his old Mark 22 in Big Mama's church, because it makes sense for one of those to be there. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:12, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

Having never had a chance to really pay attention to the Vamp / Raiden fight until now, I must admit I laughed my ass off at the part where Raiden has both arms pinned to his back and so blocks Vamp's arm and then throws him using only his teeth. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:36, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

Ok, going to be redoing all these caps soon (seen [[Dark Sector]] for why, comparing the new shots with the ones of the Spectre and G36; I've now got an official Sony component cable, so the red after-image from my third-party cable on the [[Bodycount]] page is gone). Going to be kind of "fun" trying to get the same shots all over again, I'll probably be updating all the basic weapon images tomorrow or so and then starting on recording the levels. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:53, 24 September 2011 (CDT)

:The things we do for this wiki . . . well, I'm glad you're willing to get more screenshots over something that isn't very visible on the thumbnails. Are you talking about the red-tinged edges that can be seen on some of your screenshots on the Bodycount page? That's known as chromatic abberration, but I can't see much of it on the MGS4 screenshots myself. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:01, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::Naw, the red was just why I was holding out for the Sony cable, that's why it isn't on the Dark Sector images (I now have it). The reason I'm going to replace these images is they're taken using a much lower-resolution capture device than the one I now have (a Pinnacle Dazzle rather than a Hauppage HD-PVR). You'll see the difference. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:45, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

OK, here's the difference:

[[Image:MGS4-1911Cus.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]
[[Image:MGS4-M1911Cus-HQ.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]
I'll resize the rest to 1280x720 or so rather than all of them being as big as that one, it's kinda unnecessary when they're only shown on the page at 600px anyway. The weird effect at full resolution is how the pause menu is actually supposed to look, to those not familiar with MGS4. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:50, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:YES. Better resolution is ALWAYS welcome. Looking forward to seeing more MGS "gun porn" in HD, as well as seeing some other issues resolved (such as whether the M10 and M60E4 are closed-bolt firearms in this game or their original open-bolt versions, just how Old Snake holds the M10 in a two-handed fashion with no foregrip, suppressor, or strap to put his offhand on, etc.). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:01, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::If Snake is holding the MAC-10 in a two-handed grip without the aid of an foregrip, suppressor, or strap, he would hold it in a Weaver-stance or a CAR-stance. I saw a screen shot of him using the MAC-10 and he held it in a Weaver-stance like a handgun while utilizing the stock, which makes good practical sense. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:28, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:I see. Regardless, I'm surprised that Kojima didn't slap on a "modernizing conversion" for the MAC-10 in this game, such as made available by [http://www.max-11.com/ Lage Mfg], which in short makes the gun much easier to handle by increasing the length of the barrel and handguard to add space for rails (and their accessories), a foregrip and folding buttstock, along with a mechanism that reduces the rate of fire to 600 RPM from 1100 RPM. This sort of conversion kit would essentially turn the MAC-10 into a close competitor for the HK UMP, except that this "MAX-10" version would be easier to instinctively reload since the magazine goes in the pistol grip. Too bad that the only .45 SMG in this game just isn't that good; whatever else can be said about the MAC-10, ergonomics were clearly not emphasized in its original design. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:45, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

::From what I know, the MAC-10 has inferior reliability compared to the UZI and pretty much any other SMG design. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:07, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

Just a couple of new images tonight, going to do the rest of this video tomorrow. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:44, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and here's Otacon explaining why the AK jammed:

[[Image:MGS4-Otaconsez.jpg|thumb|none|600px|"Also, there was apparently more than one cartridge in the chamber. That might have been a problem too."]]

[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:48, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:I think that's pretty cool he explains what possibly happened to the weapon, you don't get that in very many games. But it still doesn't explains ''how'' this happened to an AK, I could expect that from an AR, but an AK? Like I said on the page, Snake must have REALLY bad luck. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:25, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::Well, he's not the only one, I noticed at least one of the rebels struggling with the charging handle of his AK during the same sequence. It must just be ''really'' bad ammo. Maybe it's special ''Far Cry 2'' ammo made from blasting caps and dynamite. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:36, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::I think you just solved it mate. ;) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:20, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

Had a few problems with my footage being blurry (not in the shots I actually uploaded, mind) which I think is my old PC. A suitably beefy PC should be winging it's way to me in the next couple of weeks. :D [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:45, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

:I've already had my new beefed-up PC a couple of weeks. :D Now I'm counting down the days for BF3. >:B - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:09, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

::Then let us do as men have done for centuries and compare the lengths of our, um, computers. Mine's going to be an i7 2600K overclocked to 4.6 GHz, SLI 2 x 1,536 meg GeForce cards, 16 gigs RAM, 120 gig SSD + 3 terabyte data drive. I imagine it'll just be able to scare Crysis into running. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 23:05, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

== Screenshot requests ==

I know Evil Tim's busy, but this might be a good opportunity to let him know what screenshots might be appropriate to showcase each weapon.
*Five-seveN pistol: Old Snake commits "sexual assault" at gunpoint by holding up a FROG trooper with her own pistol while patting her down for items, along with the "crotch grab" move.
*MAC-10/G18C: Old Snake tries out for a movie of "Bonnie and Clyde" while performing a drive-by shooting from Big Mama's motorcycle.
*M4 Custom: For some reason, Old Snake has taken up the habit of shooting this carbine while holding it sideways.
*Shansi Type 17: Big Mama gets her awesome on by shooting up some Dwarf Gekko drones with her Type 17 pistol.
*MP7A1: Isn't there a PMC in Act 2 carrying this weapon who is distracted by a Playboy Magazine?
Sometimes funny screenshots make entries on this wiki all the more entertaining to read. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:09, 4 June 2011 (CDT)

*Might try that
*Almost certainly going to do something like that
*When does he hold it sideways, again?
*Yes
*Yes

Also, totally going to show how you can kill a Gekko with the SVD. Just a note: you don't have to call him Old Snake in every caption. The game only calls him that occasionally and he's "Snake" the rest of the time, and it's not like this is MGS1 and there's two people potentially called "Snake" (even in that case, they always call him Snake and his brother Liquid, so there's only minimal potential for confusion). I could see there being some issues with what to call Big Boss in 3, but this guy is still Snake. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:06, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

:I call him "Old Snake" because that's the name above his lifebar, and because that name clearly refers to him in the MGS4 time period. Of course, if you really want to be pedantic, it could be argued that Liquid Snake and Solid Snake should have called each other Liquid and Solid instead of Liquid and Snake (I think the latter combination was chosen because it sounds less silly). If you prefer to just call him Snake in the article, feel free to change that part pack. And Old Snake holds his M4A1 carbine sideways once when engaging the Pieuvre Armement PMCs who are taking Naomi away after headshotting Vamp. Another US Marine aboard the Missouri holds his M4A1 Carbine while trembling with fear as the Dwarf Gekkos execute a boarding action right outside the Missouri's bridge. That's all I can remember right now. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:37, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and if you want to show the Vulcan Cannons on the Missouri battleship, shouldn't you include the dramatic close-up shot of its CIWS cannons firing like hell trying to intercept the swarm of anti-ship missiles launched from Outer Haven? The one available now only shows the CIWS cannons in a distant shot. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:58, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:The one you're thinking of is a rather dull closeup of the installation from the ''rear'', I wanted this one because it shows the main guns and looks awesome. The Phalanx shots are exclusively taken to show off ''Missouri'', the installations can piss off. :P [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:15, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

Incidentally

[[Image:MGS4-M61-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Ray should not have been allowed to use the hydrocutter as it's opening attack. >:( Also, just noticed that half the "Street Fighter" attacks use the beak to grab Ray, even though it's where Snake is sitting and at least two of them would clearly kill him. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:08, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

== Question ==

Do real suppressors degrade like in MGS3 and MGS4? I think not, or at least it's ''very'' exaggerated in these game. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 11:50, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:old style wipe suppressors do degrade over time. Maxim type supressors and supressors designed after the 1960s don't degrade. You will have to clean them out after combat load but with the lenght of most computer games it should not be an issue as there isn't the time for junk to build up to the point where the supressor will fail. Basically if you take the time to clean you equipment every so often things should't go bad. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 21:32, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
::Thank you. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:45, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:Yep, suppressors in this game are another problem with its realism. The wipe-style suppressors in MGS3 would indeed degrade, sometimes after as low as 5 to 10 shots. Modern suppressors can last for thousands of rounds of semiautomatic fire, but less if fully-automatic fire is used.
:In reality, detachable suppressors fitted to weapons with supersonic ammunition (Drebin doesn't sell subsonic versions of normally supersonic ammunition, such as 5.56mm NATO, 7.62mm NATO, etc.) would not be as stealthy as depicted, especially at the ranges you fight at in this game. Try dropping a phone book from a height of 5 feet (or 150 cm in metric) onto a hard floor that is not covered by a rug or carpet--that's close to what even the best suppressors can do. At most of the ranges you shoot at in this game, real people would definitely notice (if not necessarily know where you are) and would immediately trigger a caution phase unless your first shot killed someone who was all by his lonesome. Suppressors can't deal with the sonic boom caused by supersonic ammunition, either, which can alert people. This is why the quietest suppressed weapons use subsonic ammunition (such as .45 ACP, or Russian 9x39mm ammo, etc.), or a special integral suppressor (like that on the MP5SD2) that slows supersonic ammunition down to subsonic speeds. Even that doesn't do anything for the clacking noises caused by the cycling of a (semi)automatic weapon's action, which is why the tranquilizer pistols in MGS2, 3, and 4 all use slide locks to eliminate that.
:Another problem is that suppressors, by slowing down the hot gas from fired rounds, cause a gun to overheat faster (because the slowed gas has more time to impart its heat to the weapon). Again, this is generally not a problem unless you forgo all fire discipline and keep firing in full auto; then you might have reason to detach an overheated suppressor and put a new one in place. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:08, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
Last ime I helped put rounds through a MP5 with a detachable supressor it took a bit for the supressor to cool enough that it could be removed from the barrel. Of course we put 120 rounds through it with mostly magazine dumps as we were just testing the guns funtion.[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 22:36, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Thanks guys. Well a suppressor is not meant to suppress gun fire so people in the same room can't hear it, it's meant so people in the whole building and in the city outside the building can't hear it. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:46, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

:Oops, forgot to mention that another way to remove the "clack-clack" sounds of a firearm's action (which can be louder than a suppressed gun's muzzle blast if the suppressor is good enough), aside from slide locks. Any type of round cycling that needs to be manually operated (such as bolt action, pump-action, etc.) will eliminate that sound. Too bad the DSR-1 couldn't be suppressed in this game; combined with its bolt action you'd get a very powerful, quiet, and lethal counterpart to the Mosin Nagant tranq rifle. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:45, 10 June 2011 (CDT)

== Just checking something ==

Of the M4, Drebin says "The barrel's free floating, of course." Now, you can see from the shot of Snake firing that even the ''handguard'' isn't free-floating, but isn't it a contradiction in terms for a direct impingement rifle to have a free-floating barrel since the barrel ''has'' to be touching something other than the reciever, namely the gas tube? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:08, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
:I hear of free-floating barrels on AR-15s all the time, I think "free-floating" means nothing but the receiver (and the gas tube) is holding the barrel in place. At least, that's what I know. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:36, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
It could be a bit of "Kojima nonsense" that snuck its way into the script (kind of like how Drebin claims the PMCs love to use the M4A1 Carbine, when in fact none of them do, and the game gives you the impression that Drebin is just foisting off old, obsolete stock onto Old Snake). After all, are we really supposed to believe that Fatman from Metal Gear Solid 2 built his first atomic bomb(!) at age 10? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:56, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
::I guess it could also be a translation error of some kind, since there's a few of those knocking around; I've just got to the first case of them mangling a symmetrical sentence by having Naomi alternate "fate" and "destiny" rather than just saying "it" the second time. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:41, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:Or it could be Kojima's notoriously inconsistent stance on the realism/unrealism scale, especially when it comes to weaponry. First in MGS2 they let us render any enemy limb useless in a single lethal weapon hit (a feature that never returned), but in that same game they let us use the Stinger Missile Launcher indoors (even though that kind of weapon would cause a cave-in or flooding in the Plant chapter). And now they ask us to believe that in some scenes, professional PMC operators can't hit Snake when he's in spitting distance (such as after he shoot Vamp in the head in South America). That scene might have worked if he was hiding some distance away using Octocamo, though. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:07, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and one more thing about the M4A1 in this game; why would you need to have a free-floating barrel on an automatic carbine? Wouldn't it just be simpler to insert a longer barrel, which would increase both accuracy and the bullet's effective range? Or, if you have the resources, you could always use better rounds (like the real life Mk 262) which have both longer effective range and accuracy than the standard 5.56mm NATO rounds in service now. That speech of Drebin's just makes him look like a "used car salesman"--it reeks of hucksterism. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:04, 21 June 2011 (CDT)

== Unknown pistol ==

Any idea what this is in Johnny Sasaki's leg holster? USP, maybe?

[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Unknown]]

[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:26, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

:Wow, even I'm a bit stumped, it's almost featureless. o_0 - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:12, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

::I was going by the features it doesn't have, more. It's got a horizontal base to the grip while holstered, which rules out any 1911-based pistol, but it doesn't have a beavertail bigger than the one on an actual beaver, so it can't be a Desert Eagle. It's obviously not any pistol that's available in the game unless it's a very small Mark 23, and a very small Mark 23 is called a USP. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:25, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

Also, am I hideously mistaken or is the Mk. 46 Mod 1 actually a Mod 0? The handguard doesn't look right for a Mod 1. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:01, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

:Based on what the model looks like it could be a featureless USP or P226 (it's too small for a Mark 23), but without the said "features" it's almost impossible tell what it is. It could also be just a generic "holster stuffer". :P (P.S. what's the deference between the Mk. 46 Mod 1 and the Mod 0, I've only seen the Mod 0?) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:59, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

::The forearm of the Mod 1 lacks the rail at the 12 o'clock position (FN Herestal has pictures of the Mod 1 on their website [http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF055&gid=FNG008]). There's probably other differences, but either Google is failing me, or there's no info about on the Mod 1 upgrades on the entire internet. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 18:48, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

:::[http://www.fnhusa.com/mil/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF059&gid=FNG008&mid=FNM0039 FN USA] says "improved receiver pins, a feed tray with retention pawls and a vented handguard with improved heat shield and three MIL-STD 1913 rails." Now, I've checked the reload animation and you can see it's got a 12-o-clock rail on the handguard, so it's a Mod 0. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

::Also, of those two it'd have to be the USP, the SIG would have two screws visible holding the grips on. What I can tell you is the shape is intentional; it's ''not'' the same model used in PMC holsters; the ones I checked have a diagonal base to the grip and therefore are obviously supposed to be a GSR. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:34, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

Just to add these:

[[Image:MGS4-FROG-Holster.jpg|thumb|none|600px|FROG holster weapon, probably Five-seveN]]
[[Image:MGS4-GSR-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|PMC Holster weapon, clearly GSR.]]
[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Another angle on Johnny's weapon, and one where they seem to have forgotten to add that delightful skidmark to his trousers, too.]]

Incidentally, ID'ing this one will take us up to 76 weapons with only one not ID'd (the land mine). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:25, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

But it doesn't have the finger tip-shaped slots at the mag well to be a USP ether... In the last pic of Johnny the pistol now looks like a stubby Desert Eagle because of the way the grip looks. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:53, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

:Well, there should be some closer shots of it when I finally get off my ass and get around to recording and capping stage 3, there's a lot of closeups of the Rat Patrol members at the end of that one that should settle it if it actually is something. Interestingly, Meryl also has that holster as part of her uniform, but hers is empty (Deagle the first has a horizontal chest holster). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 16:24, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol-3.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Think this is the best shot you're likely to get. Now, I'm going to bed, I just spent hours recording the entire third Act and at least half of the fourth and it's 3am. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:57, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:Looks kinda like a Desert Eagle with the beavertail milled down, wow this is hard. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 23:27, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

::Seems it's actually a Mark 23, since Raiden's character weapon (aside from a heap of pointy things) is a Mark 23, and he has the same holster. Holster looks to be very similar to [http://airsoftbb4u.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=402 one of these]. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 19:10, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:::You could be right, but still looks off from a Mark 23, I see a metal tang on the grip like the Desert Eagle. Err. -_- [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:04, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

::::Might just be a mistake in the model. It's certainly supposed to be a Mark 23 (it's Raiden's only gun in multi), but since they never draw them (unlike FROGs and PMCs, who do draw their sidearms if they're disarmed), there was probably no obligation to actually put a drawable gun in there. I can't remember if Johnny pulls out his sidearm when they're defending the door or not, I'll have to see if they'll actually settle it for us or not. Otherwise we'll just have to say it's an inaccurate Mark 23. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:09, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:::::Johnny does use his sidearm there. He uses a GSR. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:11, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

== Note about the M4 and the "big PMCs" ==
They ''did'' use the M4 in early builds of the game [http://ranger.gamebanana.com/img/ss/srends/thm__2863-.jpg] [http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o58/God-of-Reapers/metal-gear-solid-4-guns-of-the-p-1.jpg], but it was changed to the Mark 17 at some point for some unknown reason. Snake even got ''his'' M4 by taking it from a PMC in an early trailer. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:11, 29 June 2011 (CDT)
:Regarding the Patriot, wouldn't it fall under the same hideously ill-defined "PDW" label as the XM8 Compact? It does rather seem that PDW just stands for whatever your marketing department wants it to: HK definately called the XM8 compact a PDW in sales fluff, and invented the term because they didn't want to call their compact MP5K the MP5 Kurz Kurz as far as I can tell. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:14, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:On the subject of the M4: the article mentions that the handguard isn't free floating like Drebin says. However, I'm pretty sure the rail is carbine length KAC URX which is free floating. Also, the MP5K-PDW isn't a compact MP5K; it's an MP5K with a stock added. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 09:01, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

::Look at the shot of Snake firing the M4 into the camera and you can see there's a circular cap on the front of the rail handguard which contacts the barrel: a KAC URX doesn't have such a cap, which is why it's free-floating while this one isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:42, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

::Also the delta ring between the rail system and the receiver. URX mates with the receiver to form an uninterrupted top rail for optics. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 22:56, 24 November 2011 (CST)

PDW is indeed something of a term that is a bit too nebulous. I've even heard the term applied to the select-fire variant of the Mauser C96 being described as a PDW since it could mount a shoulder stock and used ammo that was "armour piercing." Still, the question I raised earlier on this page as to the point of mounting a free-floating handguard onto an M4A1 carbine remains--isn't a free-floating barrel mainly for sniper or designated marksmen weapons, not for CQB full-auto weapons? And wouldn't greater long-distance accuracy be achieved more simply by using a longer barrel or enhanced ammunition? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:09, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:With regard to free-float rails: there's more to it than just accuracy. Keeping the rails from contacting the barrel means that any accessories mounted on the weapon will be affected less by the vibrations that occur during firing. This helps keep vertical grips and the like from coming loose, and any optics/lasers/IR designators mounted on the forearm will have an easier time retaining their zero. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 15:12, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

Well, that does make a bit more sense, but it still sounds like the sort of thing a National Army wouldn't issue--though it wouldn't be out of place among civilians or Private Military Contractors. Don't National Armies train for accurate semiautomatic fire whenever possible from anything that isn't an LMG, and if you fire enough fully-automatic rounds to affect the zero of accessories mounted on the handguard, doesn't that mean you're doing something wrong? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:07, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

== XM8 Compact ==

Why is the XM8 Compact under the SMG/PDW section? PDW or not, 5.56x45mm should go to the Assault rifles. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 07:37, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, I was considering moving it to go with the Patriot. I'll do that tomorrow assuming someone doesn't beat me to it, and I'll remove "PDW" from the other heading since it's such a vague, useless class of weapons that seems to include everything gun company marketing departments feel like including from SMGs firing pistol rounds to compact assault rifles. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:37, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

I'm not sure about that; I think PDW is still useful to describe select-fire SCHV (small caliber, high velocity) two-handed firearms using proprietary rounds purpose-built for armour-piercing properties, like the 5.7x28mm, the 4.6x30mm, the 6.5x25mm, etc. that aren't (machine) pistols. Having said that, I would agree about how the label can be abused (the MP5K-PDW should have just received an "A" designation such as the MP5KA6 or the like). Still, I have to wonder if Akiba was given the XM8 Compact to show that Meryl "wears the pants" in their relationship--at a 9-inch barrel length, the XM8 (ultra)compact carbine is shorter than Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle, which is 10 inches long.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:08, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

:The trouble I have with the PDW label is either (a) it just means SMG so there's no point including it or (b) it includes all the stupid things that are called PDWs but aren't SMGs. Sure, the SCHV rounds aren't all used by pistols so not all PDWs are ''technically'' SMGs, but all PDW rounds are dimensioned like pistol cartridges and most have pistols designed and / or manufactured to shoot them anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:42, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

The funny thing is, if you really want to be pedantic, an SMG is really just a select-fire pistol-caliber carbine. In my view the PDW label is still useful for a narrower class of weapons than most users of the label think, and should only be used if the weapon meets all of the following characteristics.

*Proprietary PDW rounds are designed from the ground up as armour-piercing rounds (piercing Level IIIA ballistic armour or lower), and resemble miniaturized assault rifle ammunition (by virtue of its dimensions and spitzer shape) rather than traditional pistol ammunition. So by this definition the PP-2000 would not be a PDW since it's still using 9x19mm rounds, just in an armour-piercing configuration.
*A stock and foregrip must be present on the weapon for it to be considered a PDW, since both simplify aiming (which is very important in a CQB situation). So a select-fire Five-seveN or C96 are still not PDWs (instead, they are just armour-piercing machine pistols) since it lacks the ability to have both of those features. An MP5K PDW has both a stock and foregrip but doesn't meet the first requirement, and is therefore just a compact SMG with a folding stock and small foregrip.
*A true PDW must have select-fire or fully-automatic fire capability, otherwise it just becomes a fancy carbine like the PS90.

You have to admit that PDW is a more convenient acronym than something like SCHV SMG or the like. We could just go with something like "AP (armour-piercing) SMG" but that would bring stuff like the PP-2000 back into the mix. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:27, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

::Actually, an SMG is a super-light machine gun firing a pistol round: remember the category comes from the first world war before the concept of an intermediate round even existed. And the problem is most users of the label include most companies that say their weapons are PDWs; there's such a huge number of bad examples and so few good ones that it isn't really worth using it, IMO. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:42, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

:My google-fu's rather weak right now, but aside from H&K marketing derivatives of the MP5 and XM8 as PDWs I don't know of companies that are marketing SMGs or compact assault rifles with the PDW label, when in fact they don't meet the requirements I outlined earlier. Maybe you could point me in the right direction? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:32, 6 July 2011 (CDT)

::Wikipedia says the Jatimatic was marketed as a PDW back when HK invented the term, and since the 5.7mm has realised its friends would still like it if it came out as a pistol round anything that fires that is basically a subgun in the normal sense of the term. Magpul's PDR Shirow-gun fires a full-sized 5.56mm, the Chinese QCW-05 fires the 5.8x21mm pistol round, the VBR-Belgium PDW fires the 7.92x24mm pistol round...It's fair to say most things called PDWs don't qualify in the strictest sense. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:00, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:The "Shirow-gun"? And here I was thinking firearms designed for Ghost in the Shell at least made some sense, even if their service pistol caliber choice was a little iffy on the stopping power side (BTW, the Seburo Firearms page should not have been removed from this wiki). PDW rounds fired out of pistols seem a little iffy to me as well; if HK had to cancel its UCP for "inadequate ballistics in a pistol platform," what makes the Five-seveN/QSZ-92/VBR 7.92 Glock that much better? In any case, the Magpul PDR is just a compact bullpup carbine in 5.56mm NATO, and the 5.8x21mm round (how is this better than the 5.7x28mm round again?) is a miniaturized version of the Chinese 5.8x42mm assault rifle round, which makes it a PDW round. Maybe we could compromise and call them "CQDWs" for "Close Quarters Defensive Weapons" to show how they are meant to be stowed in "Close Quarters" and are most effective in CQB range as well, given their shorter cases compared to full-size assault rifle rounds? Making a poll on the forum asking whether or not the PDW label should be expunged from the site might be useful as well. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:23, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

::Again, though, I don't really see the point of using a label that's just going to cause a lot of confusion with not-examples and pseudo-examples. Anything that is categorised as a PDW in the strictest sense is basically an SMG firing AP ammunition. Not using the term rules out all the various pistols and assault rifles that would otherwise sneak into the SMG heading through the vague backdoor marked "PDW." It's sorta like having a category called "Dogs / mammals" next to one saying "cats" and expecting cats to not end up in the dog category. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

:I lol'ed at what you said about Akiba and Meryl. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:15, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

Yep, then Akiba tries to "man up" by getting the Barrett M82A2, but then finds he can't "last long." He definitely would have lasted longer if he had gotten something capable of "sustained fire" instead, like the Mk. 46 Mod. 0 coupled with an FN P90 of his own, so either he or Meryl could use the LMG for covering fire while the other goes out to loot P90 magazines from dead FROG troopers and keep wreaking merry hell as long as possible. But no, Kojima had to saddle Akiba with an incredibly impractical Barrett M82A2 (only really useful for killing larger Gekko drones and annoying unmanned Metal Gear RAYs), his old XM8 Compact and a GSR. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 17:23, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

== The MAC-10 in this game ==

Is it an open bolt (the original version) or a closed bolt version? An open bolt version wouldn't need charging after reloading, and wouldn't need to be racked unless the trigger was held down after the last round fired (after which you'd just pull it back to ready the weapon). If the MAC-10 in this game were a closed bolt version, then you would need rack the bolt if you were loading from empty and would indeed eject a round if one were still in the chamber if you racked the bolt. If Old Snake is ejecting a round from the MAC-10 after a mid-magazine reload, then wouldn't it be a closed version? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:27, 6 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'd have to check. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:09, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

Another thing you might want to examine is the M60E4; it's still an open bolt weapon last I checked (partly because open bolt weapons run cooler than closed bolt ones, an advantage on an LMG since it means you don't have to change barrels as often). Also, is the M60E4 supposed to be the "very latest model" that the rebel in the Middle Eastern Militia Safe House was boasting about? It would make more sense than an HK21E, since some PMC machine gunners use the M60E4 and it is "the very latest model" of its kind. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:45, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:Again, I'll check. In the latter case, I imagine the "very latest model" was probably supposed to be the XM8 LMG: it's the only version missing from the final game. Perhaps they gave the guy the HK21 instead because their playtesters would always kill him to get themselves a free 5.56mm machine gun with a built-in optic. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:30, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

Please do. Your considerable efforts on this page are much appreciated. But it wouldn't be the first time a game has used closed bolt versions of weapons that were originally open bolt; Rainbow Six Vegas 2 uses a closed bolt version of the MAC-11 machine pistol, for instance. And the XM8 LMG was always a strange one to me; while the other variants had good advantages for reliability and ease of use for their roles (since their sights didn't need zeroing, had more durable/reliable parts, along with infrared laser pointer/illuminators built into the sight), the XM8 LMG does not have a quick-swap barrel (unlike the M249, for instance) and is a closed bolt weapon which would make its heat buildup more problematic, despite the tougher barrel. In any case, all the game devs had to do to make the XM8 LMG would be to stick a Beta C-mag on the Marksman version of the XM8, since you can't use bipods in this game. The XM8 LMG would have been great in Johnathan's hands, and the standard carbine would then be given to Akiba. Even so, giving that boastful rebel an M60E4 would still require that you spend the money for accessories on a new game, so it wouldn't be as imbalanced as an XM8 LMG.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:34, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

== The "PMCs love the (M4)" line ==

In my edit I did NOT specify which voice track language I was referring to (for all I know, that line could also have been in the original JP version). What I was commenting on was how the recording for that scene was probably done before the decision was made to have the PMC guys use the SCAR-H rather than have them actually use the M4-type carbines (as seen in the preview images someone posted earlier). While not wrong to begin with, the fact that they didn't go back to re-do that scene based on the new weapon assignment leave me scratching my head. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 01:26, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, but it's hardly the only strange mistake made in that scene; Drebin also says it has a free-floating barrel even though there's clearly a circular end cap connecting the rail handguard to the barrel, and also that the US Army uses it even though in-game they don't. It's hard to say if it's something that used to be true, a mistake, or just Drebin playing salesman and hoping Snake doesn't notice the more obvious BS in his pitch. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:43, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

== Just found out something interesting... ==

HD remakes of all the previous games are apparently being released on PSN and possibly Live in November, so I'll hold out for them before screencapping those pages. Apparently they're going to sling in ''Peace Walker'' for PS3, too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:15, 9 July 2011 (CDT

:Are they going to retexture MGS2 and MGS3 for this collection? I hope so, because MGS2 is horribly bland with its textures, far more than MGS3 was. I'd do MGS2 myself, I don't have a capture card and the PC version I have is not well programmed for PC graphics cards, so you often end up with a lot of graphical errors. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 11:48, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

::From the sounds of things it's going to be retextured MGS2, retextured MGS3 and probably retextured Twin Snakes running in the MGS4 engine. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:02, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

:::That sounds cool. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:53, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

Last I heard it was only for the X Box 360. Good news that it's being released on the PS3 as well. Might mean that we're going to see it on the PC (fingers crossed). --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:10, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

== Drebins Camo Trousers ==
hi guys, wondering if anyone can tell me that make/pattern drebins trousers are, i mean obviously they are desert but im not sure what brand.

[http://images.wikia.com/metalgear/images/c/ca/DrebinMGS4.jpg] --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 10:48, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

Pattern would be something like "desert tiger stripe" and there's a similar-looking set of trousers [http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/original_desert_tiger_stripe.htm here]. His look to be bleached a bit lighter or something, but it's the same basic pattern. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:04, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

== A minor controversy over the Operator suicide scene ==

The English voice actor of Old Snake, David Hayter, caused a minor controversy among gaming journalists and the MGS fandom when he said he [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rH-cYUiogI didn't find Old Snake's reluctance to commit suicide to be believable]. Now that the relevant screenshot is in this wiki entry, I thought it deserved some explanation. In David Hayter's words, he says ''". . . Snake would put a bullet in, and put [the gun] in his mouth and just pop himself, like he's killed--he's killed how many countless thousands of people, and he's going to shake because he's going to kill himself? I didn't agree with that at all and begged them to change it . . . ."'' --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:05, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

:Hm, I don't really buy that. He's killed ''other'' people, sure, but confronting the end of your own existence and what might come next isn't going to be easy unless you're incredibly secure in your convictions as to what will happen (and Snake hardly strikes me as devoutly religious) or too stupid to comprehend that's what you're doing. It's not like it's a spur of the moment "I have to do this" thing, after all. Mind you, I really don't think we needed to see him going down on the Operator for quite as long as he did. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:45, 30 July 2011 (CDT)

Even so, I think he's used to fearlessly facing death, even if it's virtually certain (such as when he faced Metal Gear REX before Grey Fox intervened in MGS1, or during his hopeless duel with Fortune in MGS2). And "going down on the Operator"--that's a nice wordplay. Still, I think it's a little disappointing how what comes next is available at any difficulty--it would be more of an incentive to play on harder difficulties if you only got the complete scene after doing something such as completing the Boss Extreme difficulty or getting a Big Boss emblem. Otherwise, you'd only see:

*Old Snake smoking a last cig before fading to black and the last gunshot after finishing Liquid Easy.
*The scene where he sucks his gun off (again fading to black with the last gunshot) after finishing Solid Normal.
*A short cut after the final gunshot showing the gun and its smoking barrel in Old Snake's gnarled hand, fading to black after finishing Big Boss Hard.
*And the complete ending scene after finishing The Boss Extreme.

It would also have been a nice touch if you got to see the ghostly forms of all the people you killed throughout the game or the people Old Snake couldn't save (which means, at a minimum, Liquid Ocelot, Naomi and Big Mama) surrounding Old Snake in the cemetery as he puts the gun in his mouth, as he will join them in death very soon. Such a scene would be a nice reference to the Sorrow's River in MGS3. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:42, 30 July 2011 (CDT)

*I don't know, facing almost certain death is different to facing ''actual'' certain death, especially when it's for something as abstract as the human race rather than something as concrete as someone right in front of you. Also, in both those cases his other option was being killed by the thing he was facing, so he ''didn't'' pick the "certain death" option. Also, given Naomi's record for telling the truth, he's probably worried that shooting himself would just make the bullet ricochet off his superior genes, kill the person who was ''actually'' going to cure the disease and overpenetrate to also kill the world's most adorable kitten which was behind that guy. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:18, 31 July 2011 (CDT)

I think the best real world explanation on why Snake's Operator locked back when he had no mag was that he could have possibly pressed the slide release up and hence locking it back by accident. I've seen people accidentally lock the slide back when they accidentally push the slide release up with a loaded mag in. It could have just been the mistake of the animator that they drew a mag follower when there shouldn't have been a mag inside the gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:56, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

A buddy of mine told me that dropping a round into the chamber like what Snake did would really risk accidentally setting the gun off and he seriously tells me to never do that in real life for any gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:26, 24 November 2011 (CST)

::Hideo Kojima thinks so as well. He was forced to add that scene after the credits, I hear. In his mind, Snake did kill himself-protoAuthor 17:31, 24 November 2011 (CST)

"Also, given Naomi's record for telling the truth..." ...makes me facepalm at how proponents of the suicide ending stick to her claims of Snake becoming a biological weapon as if they're the words of Jesus himself. Seriously, if someone attempted to assassinate ''you'' with a biological weapon and that person later told you that you were in danger of ''becoming'' a biological weapon, would you really actually believe that person? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:14, 24 November 2011 (CST)

== Operator ==

I think Snake's main 1911 is closer to a TRP Operator than a standard MC Operator. It has a Target cut rear sight, full length guide rod, extended magazine well and front strap checkering. Standard MEUSOC 1911s like the MC Operator and the Kimber Warrior don't have these features. I know it's not a huge difference but I think it may be worth mentioning.
:I just realized that TRPs are usually bushingless. I think it's more of a frankengun with features from both but I still think it's closer to the TRP so I changed the picture. Hope no one minds.
::I think we'll stick with the MC, it's heavily modified from either regardless of what it originally might have been. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:57, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

== screenshots ==

I've taken some screen shots from MGS4 of most of the guns from a side on view I've uploaded a few as an example. The first is snake loading a cartridge into the breech of the thor, the second you can see the compensator working on the G18C, the third is snake screaming Rambo style. [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:THOR_breech_load.jpg]] [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:G18C_working_compensator.jpg]] [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:Rambo_Scream.jpg]]
I've got more like them if anyone wants me to upload them just want to see what you think. [[User:Whatmename|Whatmename]]

You couldn't have taken bigger screen shots? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:31, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:<s>Certainly doable, yes. I'm going to be re-doing all the other shots when I have some time off work next month, I'll pick those up at the same time.</s> Edit: oh, wait, that wasn't Excalibur asking me to take bigger ones. Nevermind, I'll take bigger ones of those things, Whatmename, don't worry about uploading yours. Best that every shot comes from the same capture device and method, it makes the page look tidier. Besides, we don't really need side-on shots of most of the weapons since we've already got the inventory images for that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:09, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

I think that screenshot from the G18C shows that the muzzle flash doesn't quite fit where the compensator port is supposed to be. I think the only video games I've seen that correctly emulate the compensated muzzle flash are Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 1 and 2. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:21, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

== M4 Custom RAS ==

Regarding the confusion regarding the RAS on the M4 custom.

The in game RAS resembles two offerings from KAC, the Carbine RAS and the free floating RAS.
[http://www.knightarmco.com/mod_weapons_1.htm Knights ArmCo RAS]

The carbine RAS replaces the standard handguards and is secured with the default delta ring and end-cap.
The free floating RAS replaces the entire handguard, including the delta ring; replacing it with a visually distinctive locking ring. The end-cap in not employed.

The in-game model has the locking ring from the free-floating RAS but the end-cap from the carbine RAS.

IMHO this was done so that the game engine wouldn't have to render the interior surfaces for the RAS and barrel.

:Given we have other errors due to using airsoft guns as models, I think it's more likely that they used an airsoft replica. A cheaply made plastic RAS might have issues with snapping off if it wasn't secured at both ends. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 18:47, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:Also, I'm going to be replacing almost every picture on this page with HD versions soon, so don't worry too much about new ones, it just gives me more work. Put any suggestions here or on my talk page. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 19:02, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

2012-03-13T01:17:07Z

Researcher: /* Mk. 23 Mod 0 */

== Airsoft 1911 ==
Are you absolutely sure the airsoft gun wasn't based on the gun in the game?-protoAuthor
:What are you talking about? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 04:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
::You say the custom 1911 was based on an airsoft gun. Are you sure it wasn't the other way around?-protoAuthor
::I also agree that the gun isn't based off the one in the pic for that weapon. Aside from it being an airsoft gun, it is a compact version of a 1911 when Big Boss's 1911 was a fullsize. Also, the slide serrations are slanted wheras the ones on big boss's weapon were vertical like those on the original 1911. Neither one has anything to do with the other, I think the image should be removed.

the 'source' for the statement 'Big Boss's gun is based off a custom airsoft' is http://crimsonsguns.tripod.com/gameguns.html

However, I view this with a huge degree of skepticism. For starters, as mentioned, the barrel/slide seems to be longer on Big Boss's gun. But even if it is based on an airsoft gun, the airsoft gun itself is based on a standard real-world 1911 with real world features. So it's just one step removed from raw, hands on research. But then again, I don't think most game companies actually buy real versions of the guns they are modeling, they just look around for photos of them. It's like saying 'the model for the gun in this game isn't based on a REAL M-16, it's based on pictures of an M-16'

That 'source' mentions that the gun was produced by Sheriff Co. Given that Sheriff is mentioned in the MGS3 credits it's actually quite likely that it was in fact modeled off an airsoft gun. However, the one in the picture is obviously not the one in the game.--[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 19:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I know that Western Arms did an airsoft version of the MGS3 custom 1911 after the game was released. I wasn't aware of an airsoft gun like that existing before MGS3 was released. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 07:30, 2 July 2011 (CDT)

== DSR-1 ==

It can also be found in South America when following Naomi's trail, just follow the wrong footsteps from the point where you can also find hand trails. You will hear Naomi crying for help (from a radio) and a sniper will wait for you to come. She has the DSR-1 with her.

== In game pistures ==

Someone needs to post ingame pictures of the guns.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

this shot gun (http://www.gunsamerica.com/926290644/Guns/Shotguns/Ithaca-Shotguns/SxS/Ithaca_NID_New_Ithaca_Field_Grade.htm) looks alot like the "twin barrel" in the game.--[[Special:Contributions/184.35.22.22|184.35.22.22]] 22:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mark 23 Mod 1? ==
''According to the Metal Gear Wiki, the gun they used as a reference in MGS4 is actually an experimental "Phase 2" model that is currently undergoing testing by the US Navy.''

No, actually it says that ''the SOCOM presented in MGS1, MGS2 and MGS4 is in fact the Phase II model handgun submitted for trials in the USSOCOM Offensive Handgun Weapon System (OHWS) competition around the later part of 1991, and not the actual production model of the Mk.23 Mod 0''. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

::I wrote that -- the differences were the LAM, front serrations on the slide, markings, and the hammer looked different too. By the time the Mk23 was received in May '96, these details bad been changed; both for the military and civilian versions of the pistol. Overall, they're mostly aesthetic changes. -- Orca*

==Screenshots needed==

This page needs someone with enough effort to add pictures for all of these guns. -GM

:I can't do screencaps, but I did add some details about some of the weapons such as where they can be found and such. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 12:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Spartan198

:I would agree that a game with this many weapons would be much better with more relevant screencaps, especially ones without watermarks. More relevant information about the guns themselves would also be welcome.

==Why the strange biases towards certain weapons and calibers in this game?==

It seems odd to me why the weapon/caliber selection is so odd in this game. Metal Gear Solid has been one of the best game series to prominently display the real names of every gun in the game, but I have to wonder if some of those companies Kojima got permission from paid him to underplay the abilities of other guns in this game.

For the calibers, it seems mighty odd that the Glock 18c is the only 9x19mm pistol in the entire game. Not even the rebels or militia use older 9x19mm pistols, which is very odd because you'd think that of the vast majority of older pistols that escaped the worldwide mandatory ID lock systems that is mentioned in the game's backstory would be 9x19mm pistols. Not even something like a Beretta M9 is used by the PMC troopers, even though it would be a nice free choice to have in Metal Gear Online.

The game also strangely features 7.62x51mm Battle Rifles where they aren't the most appropriate, such as how the PMCs use the FN SCAR-H even in the confines of urban ruins (as in Act 1) or an intact city (as in Act 3). Only the South American countryside in Act 2 would be an appropriate location for those Battle Rifles in the hands of general troopers. You'd think that Kojima with his weaponry knowledge would give them assault rifles/PDWs/shotguns instead while in urban operations, but that's somehow not the case.

Did H&K and FN pay Kojima to include (and in turn, advertise) their products a great deal in this highly-anticipated and wildly popular game? FN has the Five-SeveN, the P90, the SCAR-H, and the FAL all in the game, while H&K has the SOCOM pistol, the MP5SD2, the XM8, the G3A3, and the HK21E. Colt products and their users by contrast don't get that kind of exposure--Colt M4s are rare, and Colt M16s are completely non-existent in this game. I also think it's telling that the FN P90 has its 50 round magazine, a combat sight, a flashlight and a suppressor, but its competitor, the H&K MP7 has only a red dot sight and is stuck with its 20 round magazine (not its upgraded 40 round magazine) according to this game just can't compete.

Contrary to what some posters on this wiki have said elsewhere, I don't believe this game is biased towards the latest and greatest weapons in general, as several weapons here such as the Vz. 83, the FN FAL carbine, the G3A3, the MAC-10, the Mosin Nagant, the PKM, the RPG-7 and the SVD Dragonuv are quite old.

Kojima definitely spent some time doing weapons research for this game, but did he ever come out with a reason as to why the game chose such odd additions to its arsenal? His personal favourite gun is the Barret M82, something not suited for general combat, so maybe he himself doesn't know as much as the ingame info might imply. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the same arguments could be said about any of the Tom Clancy games like Rainbow Six Vegas and it's whoring worth of H&K weaponry [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

It would seem to me that if HK and FN paid Kojima off to showcase (or "whore out", whichever you reading this prefers) their tech, weapons like the XM8 and SCAR-H wouldn't be seemingly outclassed by the M4. You can kit the M4 out with anything and everything, while the SCAR-H lacks a suppressor and grenade launcher (severely hindering its flexibility) and the only thing the XM8 gets is the grenade launcher. Heck, the M4 is pretty much a CQB, grenadier, and designated marksman carbine all in one package (and I typically use it as such, often foregoing the actual ''sniper rifles'' in the game in long range combat for the M4 equipped with an ACOG). If HK or FN had paid him off, it would seem logical for the M4 to be totally outclassed in-game by both the XM8 and SCAR-H. Not only those points, but the M4 and the 1911s (I say 1911s collectively because cutscenes seem to automatically replace every non-1911 pistol in your inventory with the Operator) are implied to be Snake's signature weapons this time around. If he were paid off, why aren't the Mark 23 and XM8 or Five-Seven and SCAR-H his signature weapons? Also where's the PSG1, the so-called "greatest sniper rifle in the world" (or so HK says)? And I also feel the urge to point out that the HK21E has '''0''' modifications for it as well as a ridiculously slow ROF, which makes the M60E4 ''clearly'' superior to it. Now, I'm not exactly ''defending'' either company here, but it just seems to me that if they had paid Kojima off, the biases pointed out here would be far more extreme. As it stands, I just think Kojima wanted the weapons he likes the most to be the ones players used the most. Regarding the "old" weapons in the game, they may have seen a few years, yes, but FALs, G3s, Dragunovs, PKs, and above all the RPG-7 are so ubiquitous today that we'll be seeing them on modern battlefields, ''especially'' ones in the Middle East, for decades to come. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, now that I've spent some time thinking about it, the M4 and M1911 in MGS4 may not actually be Colt products at all. After all, didn't a court decision in real life rule that an M4 is a type of firearm and not a Colt trademark at all? It's kind of like how an "M1911-style pistol" is also a type of pistol, not a Colt trademark which is why there are dozens if not hundreds of kinds of "M1911-style pistols" for sale on the general market today. I wonder if Kojima asked Colt to use their trademarks and got rebuffed for whatever reason, which might have caused him to withdraw the M4s from the PMCs and substitute FN SCAR-Hs until someone told him he could just call it an M4 (though not a Colt M4) and avoid copyright infringement.

:On the issue of customizability, I think the M4's customizability compared to, for instance, the XM8 and FN SCAR-H is a bit of laziness on the part of Kojima. I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't just stick the M14 EBR's suppressor model on the end of the FN SCAR-H or G3A3 and turn those two into suppressed firearms, for instance. They could have also stuck the M4's suppressor model onto the AK-101 or XM8 as well (in my opinion the XM8's integral red dot sight in MGS4 is easier to use than the M4's, being a great deal less claustrophobic than the M4's version). Something like the FN EGLM would have been nice on the SCAR-H (or the SCAR-L had they bothered to give the PMCs assault rifles in urban areas) but unlike the M320 or GP-30, would only have gone on one weapon (unless the SCAR-L was included) and possibly not have been good on the cost-benefit analysis. But my point, that the customizability of many of the weapon systems (where are the PSO-1 scopes for the AN-94 and AK-102, for instance?) is more an artifact of the design decision than the reality of the weapons in question. Of course, even with the full "real-life" customizability, the M4 would still be the only one capable of carrying an underslung shotgun, which I think is unique enough (though I bet the XM8 could have gotten one had it been adopted, and I'm sure one will be designed for the FN SCAR models if it proves itself in the field enough).

:Oh, and one of the reasons why you can snipe with the M4 is because the game over-emphasizes headshots and doesn't implement ballistic physics for bullets. If it did, bullet drop would come into play (especially since the M4's short barrel means that less velocity and energy is imparted to the bullet, resulting in less effective range), moreso with the M4 than the FN SCAR-H or M14 EBR for instance. I think the game would have been more fun if helmets were stronger (for instance, 5 helmet hits from most pistol weapons to kill, 3 helmet hits from 5.56mm weapons to kill someone, or 2 7.62x51mm/PDW ammunition hits, or 1 9x39mm/shotgun slug hit), forcing the player to aim for the exposed face or neck to guarantee a one-hit headshot kill).

:I only mentioned those weapons as "old" so as to defuse claims that Kojima was only focussed on the "latest and greatest."

:It would have been nice if a PSG-1 and FAMAS (both weapons used in MGS1) showed up in the game for old time's sake, but that was not to be. Still, that doesn't resolve the question of why HK's PDW (the MP7A1) is so inferior to FN's PDW (the P90) in this game. Even the wikipedia image of the MP7A1 shows it with a suppressor and 40 round magazine, along with custom optics. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

::Play on a higher difficulty level. The strength of the PMC's helmets varies. On the easiest level, a single 9mm round will punch through. On the highest level, it takes a couple of rounds of 7.62 NATO to punch through. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

One imagines a general switch from assault rifles back to battle rifles would occur in a world where you might reasonably expect to encounter extremely tough infantry armour or power suits; given the nature of the PMCs as private entities, being "equipped for anything" is probably a selling point. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:23, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:Sure, but if you're really "equipped for anything" you'd issue what's needed for the environment. And the PMCs in Act 2 (South America) still use the SCAR-H CQC even though in open countryside that barrel length is more of a liability than anything else. Even the Leftist insurgents are using full-size G3A3s in that stage. In a battle rifle, the shorter the barrel, the more of the cartridge's energy goes to waste as useless muzzle flash and sound. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:09, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

::To be fair, Pieuvre Armement also have more support weapons than any of the other PMCs (snipers, HMGs, grenade launchers, and a lot of mounted guns) and it looks like they were primarily hired to defend key government structures rather than fight it out in the open. Perhaps with the SCARs they just got a bulk discount, or given it's a private entity it could just be one of the directors like the look of the weapon / someone was impressed by the salesman's spiel / someone was sleeping with someone else / whatever. Out of game, it makes some sense; it means you only need one set of gestures coded for NPC / rifle no matter what level they're in. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:19, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:If Kojima's aim was to make the FN SCAR-H a "this is one of the signature enemy NPC guns" type of thing, then that does make some sense, but that doesn't even cover how many Pieuvre Armement troopers can be found patrolling in the open, sometimes ambushed by Leftist insurgents, or the lack of customizability options for the FN SCAR-H.

:Furthermore, if Kojima and his team could afford the time and money to put the KAC Masterkey on the M4A1 Carbine (an accessory that can be mounted on no other weapon in this game) you could just as easily do the same kind of work and stick an FN EGLM grenade launcher to the SCAR-H (it uses the same swing-out cylinder as does the M320 grenade launcher, so the animations would be largely the same), to say nothing of a suppressor or the LSS underslung shotgun for the XM8. And why not rip off the Mk. 14 Mod 0's suppressor to use on the SCAR-H, G3A3 or the FAL carbine? Before you tell me "they don't have barrel threading," neither does Snake's Operator pistol, his very first suppressed lethal weapon. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:31, 30 May 2011 (CDT)
::Uh dude, Snake's Operator does have a threaded barrel, did you even look at the pics... - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:41, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:I stand corrected, the thumbnail made the threading blend together into a featureless grey. Regardless, my other points stand. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:55, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

I think the idea was to make players want to use the M4 over other weapons (I guess to emphasise it), so the SCAR couldn't be as good as it. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:07, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

Noteworthy is the fact that the Masterkey in reality doesn't come in a rail-mounted version like is shown in-game. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:44, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

== Mk. 23 Mod 0 ==
I just have to ask this; why does Snake like using the H&K Mk. 23? I mean, from everything I've heard/read about them, the USP compact tactical variant is much better, so why doesn't Snake use that?--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 16:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

He uses it because the designers wanted him to use it. And if you've ever shot a Mk23 you'd know that it is vastly superior to the entire USP series in every possible way other than weight and weight shouldnt be an issue you're looking for a combat handgun.
-Double Agent M

:Um, yes, weight ''is'' an issue in a combat handgun. Weight is ''always'' an issue when it comes to the weapons and gear used by soldiers. That's why the Mark 23 ''failed'' as a combat handgun and lavished on supply shelves instead of inside holsters like the various 1911 makes and even the entire USP series. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now on the HK Mk. 23's page, but since this was brought up, I might as well ask it here: why ''was'' the Mk. 23 made so big and bulky in the first place, if its performance could have been replicated in the smaller USP series? It's close in size to the Desert Eagle despite firing a smaller (and more combat-practical) cartridge. Was it to ensure ruggedness, resistance to salt water damage, and reliability? Or something else? It's always puzzled me about this pistol that is one of the signature weapons of the Metal Gear Solid series (making appearances in 1, 2, and 4). Of course, it could be that Kojima just thinks it's a "cool gun" . . . --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 20:59, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Its weight helps counteract recoil, the elongated barrel improves accuracy, and right out of the box it can be fitted with a suppressor and a LEM. It's bulky enough so that if you need to you can beat a man to death with it. It's a fantastic combat handgun but where it loses out to Berettas and Colts is in complexity. Because of it's raw size you cant just whip it around and the controls can take some getting used to. It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm.
-Double Agent M

:Supposedly the USP Compact Tactical can mount a suppressor and Laser Aiming Module, but only has 8 rounds in .45 ACP. Also, as a "Offensive Handgun Weapons System," the SOCOM pistol supposed to be usable as a primary weapon when killing is supposed to be done discreetly, such as many situations in the Metal Gear Solid series. On paper I can see why it's better, but if the hands-on experience of operators deems it as "uncomfortable to carry and use," then their complaints trump the on-paper benefits.

:Of course, "uncomfortable" and "hard to use" is a bit of a relative term, since training and practice can certainly acclimatise someone to almost any well-designed weapons system, but that takes time, money, and perseverance. Given that handguns are hardly a primary weapon system anymore, and the majority those who do professionally use them as such (such as average beat cops) don't train with them to be expert shooters most of the time, I suppose ease of use is a major factor because it's the easier way out instead of spending time to get used to a better-on-paper but less-user-friendly weapon. If "better-on-paper" mattered more, wouldn't the FBI be using Glock 20 pistols instead of Glock 22 pistols? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 16:48, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
:::I agree with you. :) But I'd still love to get a hold of one and try it for myself. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:: "It's not intended to be a back-up weapon, it's designed to supplement and compliment a shooter's primary firearm." <-I love this kind of thing. Sure, a pistol that's a foot and an half long with a suppressor and weighs as much as an empty MP5 is a much better compliment to your primary weapon than it's weight in extra magazines ''for'' that primary weapon. Think you needed to lay off the HK propaganda there, "Agent M." To actually answer the question, they used the Mk23 because it's huge and blocky (same reason Meryl got that 50 AE Deagle), so it's easy for the player to see it in Snake's hands and for the PS1 to render it. Simple as that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:42, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:::I've heard from a lot people who actually own MK 23s and they say that their excellent weapons (and no, it was not "HK propaganda"). - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:23, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

::::From what I've heard, they're excellent weapons in terms of accuracy (which comes from being gigantic and heavy) but not something you'd want to take into combat; they're too big for a backup weapon and not capable enough as a primary weapon. Also, anyone who drops the cost of a Mk23 on a pistol is going to have thought it was an excellent weapon ''before'' they bought it, otherwise they never would have done so in the first place. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:56, 24 May 2011 (CDT)
:::::I would buy one, but hey, a four pound .44 Magnum revolver feels like nothing in my hands, and I'm only a medium-sized guy with not much of a build. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:43, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

:::::Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but is it me, or the MK 23 is listed in the menu as actually much lighter than it is IRL? Maybe that's why it is so popular in the MG universe...

== Meryl's Desert Eagle ==

Just how "combat-effective" would the ballistics of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle be? What might the effective range be, and would it regularly penetrate the body armour of the FROG troopers she faces? Or would she be better off with an 40-round MP7A1 (to go with the theme of "biggest to smallest" weapons of the Rat Patrol) when fighting the FROG troopers in Advent Palace and Outer Haven? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

*I've got an Airsoft Desert Eagle (bought many years ago, mind) that came with both barrels, and it's weighted to the point you can see what a bad idea it is: it's ridiculously front-heavy with that barrel extension, and I imagine with a scope as well it'd probably weigh as much as the MP7 anyway. So maybe it could penetrate body armour and maybe it couldn't, but you'd still have better ergo from using a 1911 duct-taped to the head of a banjo. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 09:21, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:Okay, so that Airsoft model exactly duplicates the loaded weight of Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle? That's rather interesting. Even if it couldn't penetrate the body armour the FROGs seem to be wearing, would the impact force be enough to inflict blunt trauma on the FROGs, such as broken ribs, concussions, or the like? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:15, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Well back when I did Airsoft, I played for functionality and being simple. Sure my team and I decked out our guns, but nothing more than red dot sights, and vertical grips. Because it isn't real firearms, we tried to not equip like we would a real weapon because it's not the same thing. Lighter is always better. The less we have to carry, the better. That being said, I would never get an Airsoft Desert Eagle to shoot in games. For fun, yeah. It'll be cool to run around the woods with the 10in barrel and a scope mounted on it, but you wouldn't get any good range with an airsoft pistol anyway, even if it is gas powered. Now a REAL Desert Eagle, I'd get for fun, but that's only after I get my more practical guns first.

Anyway, I think from a character standpoint, Meryl's character is supposed to be a "tough chick" so what's the iconic tough guy gun? A Desert Eagle from the action movies. I don't know if the .50 AE could go through body armor [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:42, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:Yeah, I just use it for plinking spiders because I have a high ceiling. Bought it because I was a teenager and it was a Desert Eagle, I will make no excuses on that front. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 10:48, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

::lol, I also bought a Airsoft Desert Eagle when I was a teenager and I still have it. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:50, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

:::Well, living here in Comrade Elizabeth's Glorious People's Republic of Englandstan makes it easy to hang on to it since if I'm reading this correctly I couldn't legally sell it anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:13, 25 May 2011 (CDT)

::::lol. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 07:49, 25 May 2011 (CDT)

:Well I admit before I knew anything about the M16, I was very anti-gun kid in early high school. Then when I got to know guns, I thought the M16 is this Vietnam piece of crap that jams all the time and the AK is the ultimate assault rifle until I grew up and got a more objective view of guns. When buying my first Airsoft, I bought a P90 cause I was a fan of Stargate...then I discovered a P90 Airsoft is useless, inaccurate and has terrible range. So I went and bought an M733, and then realize that you need a longer barrel for range and accuracy and that evolved to my M4 type rifle. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:59, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

One more thing; does the reloading style Meryl uses in the fight inside Outer Haven's computer room have a name (where she jams one of her magazines into the crook of her knee while firing with her other hand, before reloading an empty Desert Eagle with the magazine held in her knee)? I see so many adds for shooting schools with patented styles around I have to wonder if this comes from one of them. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:11, 21 June 2011 (CDT)

== Tanegashima rifle ==

Why isn't it on the page?

:Thanks to Evil Tim's hard work, it is now on the page. However, there's something that remains to be investigated; I've heard conflicting reports about whether or not the Tanegashima arquebus will always fire its "divine wind" (translated version of the Japanese word "Kamikaze") tornado if you fire it in the opposite direction of the wind in a singleplayer level. That could be something worth looking into. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:15, 2 June 2011 (CDT)
::I'll check up on that; I'd just heard it was a one-third chance per shot. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:51, 2 June 2011 (CDT)
::Nope, nothing to do with the wind direction, I tried with and against the wind, and in the end it just went off at random like usual. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:17, 3 June 2011 (CDT)
:I see it was just a rumour then. Still, I'm puzzled as to why you didn't take a screenshot highlighting the extreme silliness of the weapon; it would have been worth a chuckle to see a screenshot of PMCs caught in the tornado flying in a spiral while dropping far more items than they could ever carry in real life while collecting their "frequent flier miles."--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 12:57, 4 June 2011 (CDT)
::Well, I accidentally selected Solid Normal rather than Big Wuss Easy, and it's hard enough getting the Tanegashima to do its thing normally, nevermind trying to check how it's affected by the direction of the wind while being shot at. I'm doing enough stupid things to burn through rations as it is :D [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:58, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:I see; I guess not all of us have the time to learn how not to get shot up less in this game (here's a tip; going prone or crawling is the best way to use your Octocamo). Would have been nice to see PMCs flying in a big spiral anyhow on this wiki. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:43, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
::Well sure, I can be pretty sneaky when I'm not doing stupid things like seeing if I can get a Gekko to throw a grenade at me. Same as I'm trying to avoid wearing the Octocamo hood even though it's good for your camo index, because it also makes Snake look really stoopid. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:42, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

== Someone needs to finish this page ==

This page is how old and no one has finished it? Someone needs to start doing it.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't have this game and it's a chore to get all the screenshots second hand [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I've got a much better capture device than I used to, so I could probably do this at some stage; the main problem is I'd have to record it first (since the software with the Dazzle crashes every time I take a screenshot and BSODs the entire computer if I try to take more than one); I'll have a crack at it next time I'm off work. Don't want to just stand in a corner looking at the same thing for every gun, that makes for dull page. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 09:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

:Please do. Stealth camo would be useful to take screenshots of weapons in the hands of NPCs (such as the MP7 or the like). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

::Still on this. It's going to take a while before I have time (especially since I'll need to record some of those billion hours of cutscenes), but I haven't forgotten. I'll probably get Twin Snakes and cap the whole series, since doing PS1 MGS1 without first-person aim mode for caps would be a bit pointless. "Look, Snake has a FAMAS! Down there in his hands...oh just click on the damn image and press your nose right up to the screen." Only thing I really need from that is a comparison shot of the Abrams, since the original game's one had two M2 Brownings instead of one. Also I've got an MGS2 trailer somewhere showing Snake with a FAMAS, so I'll have to add that to the 2 page. I'm hoping I can find a picture of the wooden prop version of Fortune's railgun that they built for motion capture. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:31, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:Good to know. I'm looking forward to a full version of this page. I would have finished the MGS2 page myself, except that the PC version I have (the official KONAMI port) is somewhat poorly optimized, with some textures missing or improperly rendered (and what do you mean, KONAMI, that we can't use the mouse to aim in FPV or duplicate the pressure sensitive button functions from a PS2 controller with a keyboard?!). Also, the FAMAS in MGS2 is only usable on the demo version of MGS2 (though it does show up in some cutscenes in the Plant chapter for some strange reason). Did they reuse the MGS2 Demo FAMAS for the Twin Snakes? Perhaps you can find out. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:54, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah, that'd be worth checking. I heard GIAT (it was still GIAT back then) got very precious about their intellectual property after they realised people wanted to put the FAMAS in games (they're the same about model companies and the LeClerc, Tamiya had to stick their logo and "officially endorsed" on the box of their LeClerc kit) and I think that's why Konami pulled the FAMAS from 2 and never had it turn up again even in 4. Probably they couldn't say no to using it in a remake since they'd already said yes the first time. I've still got the demo of 2 (only reason anyone bought ''Zone of the Enders'', after all) and the FAMAS isn't in that either; it goes from the start of Tanker to the end of the boss fight with Olga, and only gives you the M9 and USP. It was only ever in the early trailers showing Snake on the Tanker. I heard there's some other changes like the guys in the Warhead Storage room using ring airfoil rounds rather than just instakilling you with a radiation leak if you were spotted. Also, you didn't miss anything with the pressure sensitive buttons, trying to half-hold the fire button to aim a rifle in first person was terrible. Apparently the "Tanegashima" is a Japanese copy of a Portugese arquebus design (sayeth Wikipedia, anyway), so I'll have to add that to the page too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:19, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

:Well, copyright is a sticky situation (go look at one of my earlier comments here and notice how there are no Colt products in this game, despite the presence of an M4A1 Carbine and an M1911). Ubisoft got around it because the FAMAS appears in Rainbow Six Vegas 2 by its real name, so why not MGS4? And I was wrong; the FAMAS is coded within the MGS2 demo, but it is only accessible [http://youtu.be/MxfMCXcpGx8 via a code]. And actually there are a few uses for the pressure-sensitive buttons in MGS2--without them you bang your head against a locker ventilation grille when trying to look out, alerting any nearby enemies. You also can't aim an assault rifle without the pressure-sensitive controls, which made controlling them on the PC next to impossible. Another problem is you can't lower a pistol without firing it if you don't let go of the aiming button gently (I got around this on the PC version by unequipping my weapon). Finally, the distance you throw grenades is determined by how hard you press the pressure-sensitive button (but they were almost useless anyway since throwing a frag or flashbang grenade automatically causes an alert upon detonation and frags have a small damage radius). All this made for a frustratingly bad PC port, which is why I caved in and got the PS2 version afterwards. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:20, 16 April 2011 (CDT)

Well, made a start before realising I'm going to have to crop the borders off every image by hand. :( Ah well, they're just placeholders anyway just so we can get rid of the IGN watermarks and have actual game images. For now they can keep the borders and I'll replace them all when I do this page properly. I hope you appreciate my sacrifice, I had to uninstall Vanquish to get these. Stupid 40 gig PS3. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:35, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

Good work so far Tim. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:40, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

*Ok, I'll put up the explosives later today (since we don't have them at all). I'm fairly sure the railgun qualifies as reasonably believable; it was actually built as a physical object (a wooden MoCap prop) and looks like an XM25 that's eaten its Wheaties. And then everyone else's Wheaties. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 23:29, 24 May 2011 (CDT)

Anyone remember where the PMCs with standalone Masterkeys show up? I think it's somewhere in Act 2, but I can't remember if you have to cause an alert or if they're just ahead of where I stopped recording (partway through Confinement Facility). Also, don't worry, the shots aren't all going to be from Act 2. Also added a spoiler warning since, well, I can hardly ''not'' have a shot of A Certain Person holding the Patriot, and the fourth Act being on Shadow Moses is kind of a spoiler too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:07, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:There's definitely at least one in the Confinement Facility, check out about 10:50 of this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg87rbI3CXU#t=10m50s], there's a guard with one who shows up with one at the right edge of the screen (pretty sure he always respawns there with a Masterkey). --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 15:27, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

::Naw, that's an XM320, he's one of the pair I've got a shot of in that section. You can hear a "phut" rather than a shotgun blast when he fires. But I know there's people with standalone Masterkeys somewhere, because I remember being puzzled at why on earth you would create such a thing. (edit) Ah, MG Wiki says there's one at the gate of Vista Mansion. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:Also, considering all the shit that fits inside Metal Gear Mk. 2 (50 Stingers, 50 Javelins, 50 LAWs, a Barrett, a railgun the size of a pony, etc) why does it never occur to Snake to hide inside it himself? I know they kind of joked about it with Snake being able to pocket a drum can that's bigger than he is, but still. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:36, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

It's called a "Hyperspace Arsenal." I would be all for a realistic mode that forced you to carry guns that are too big right from the beginning of a mission rather than have them delivered by the mini-Metal Gear, or have you collect them after a period of time after "requesting" them at a cache location dropped off by Drebin, or else only be able to transfer/launder/buy ammo just after meeting Drebin in cutscenes. Still, that wouldn't address the other realism issues this game has, such as how the NPCs are indestructible--shouldn't shooting them with .50 BMG weapons or high explosives blow off limbs or reduce them to ludicrous gibs? And what about the octocamo system; wouldn't the human eye only be realistically fooled if Snake was hiding in foliage or else, quite some distance away, lest the enemies spot his outline and start shooting at Snake?

In any case, do you think you could also include tidbits on which guns need to be laundered and which don't need to be? It'd be a nice tidbit, since the entry already includes which guns are available in multiplayer and which aren't. I'm very much looking forward to seeing more great screenshots of this game's guns--do you think it'd be possible for you to equip stealth camo and enter First Person view so we can see NPCs with holding their guns up close?--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 14:06, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

:I'm afraid I don't have stealth camo (I can never resist firing LAWs at Strykers :() but I tend to prefer wider shots with things actually going on in them; just focusing right in on the gun makes the page rather dull to look through, IMO (I ''hate'' those CoD page images with everything cropped out but one corner of the screen; just imagine if you took the shot of Dirty Harry holding his revolver in the "do you feel lucky?" scene and cut out everything but the revolver). Also, I'm fairly sure the player and world models for weapons are exactly the same in this game. Still, it's not that hard to get close when you're recording video rather than taking individual screenshots, and it's even easier to get close to the totally broken Raven Sword AI in Act 3. Plus you can get great views of almost all the PMC weapons in cutscenes anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:53, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

I didn't mean cropping the images so that only the guns are visible; I was just saying that with Stealth camo you could get within punching (or kissing) distance of the various NPCs in the game so you could get good pics of them holding their weapons without the annoying black-screen parts from scopes or the HUD marks in the centre of the screen if you use Snake's binocular's or the mini-Metal Gear's camera view. Also, could you please please please make a screenshot of the FROG firing her DSR-1 at Big Mama followed by the latter's "I'm fine" despite not wearing any body armour? I find it one of the more unintentionally hilarious parts of the game. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 16:15, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

:I'll be sure to get that, yes. Though for me the funniest sequence was the part before the "guns of the Patriots" part, where the US Army were pointing guns at Liquid Ocelot's boat and making clicking noises for so long it became ridiculous. Of course the Foxdie scene was funnier, but probably intentional (Snake and Liquid do the "Fox..." "...Die" bit, Liquid Ocelot jumps up and runs away cackling ridiculously and Snake responds by falling over). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

Heh heh, it's funny how after the "Guns of the Patriots" scene, Drebin's prices fall flat on their faces with a permanent 50% discount until the end of the game. Of course, that raises the question about why Drebin's prices never go up; wouldn't the complete lock-out of ID-locked firearms mean that the services of gun launderers like Drebin would be more in demand than ever (resulting in a huge price increase), even if just to keep the Rebels who use naked guns from killing all the ID-locked gun users? It's just another entry in the long list of this game's realism problems. And of course, the first FOXDIE scene is another manifestation of how wrong it was to let Kojima direct the game, since he's so firmly stuck in MGS1's shadow the plot of MGS4 is so firmly stuck in the first game's mold. Of course, that's got nothing to do with the weaponry in the game, but I'm still looking forward to this page's completion nonetheless. By the way, have you seen Ocelot's "THINK AGAIN!" ability in Metal Gear Online yet?--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:47, 31 May 2011 (CDT)

:I must admit I've never played MGO. As for Kojima, I think he was at his best in MGS3 when he was making a tribute to something he loved (the old spy movies that had inspired the series in the first place, with their cool gadgets and ridiculous villians) and he's at his worst when he's trying to force out a game he seems to have regarded as his obligation; I remember that he didn't really want to be involved in 4 and only came back on board after the fans raised a stink about his being absent. He strikes me as a lot like Lucas, who was great when he was making a tribute to the old-fashioned sci-fi he grew up with and hideous when he was left making something he didn't really care for except as a way to make money. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:57, 1 June 2011 (CDT)

Funny that you mentioned George Lucas. I have to wonder whether or not Kojima took some inspiration from Lucas when he decided to make his newest, completely over-referenced MacGuffin: nanomachines that do almost everything, from track biological functions to serve as ID keys, even form the basis for mind control or emotional manipulation. Kind of reminded me of Lucas' "midi-chlorians," since the two of them are both blood-borne squiggly things. Oh well, the fans, like everyone else, don't always know how what they want isn't necessarily what they need. And even the greatest of us can succumb to "Creator's Conceit," whereupon one starts believing in the delusion that "because I made this best-selling piece of media, I can change it however I want, heedless of the needs of believability, plausibility, realism or even my own previous work." Ocelot's "THINK AGAIN" ability in Metal Gear Online can be seen in full force [http://youtu.be/XM7yc5Gf_OU here]. You should give Metal Gear Online a try if you have the money; its training mode is great for taking pictures of the unique characters and their weapons, and it is the only mode where you can use the ballistic shield, or hear the various multiplayer characters do their Rambo impressions while firing an M60E4. Once again, a hearty thank you for your hard work. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:26, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

:I think I'm immune to stupid depictions of nanomachines after playing the two ''Deus Ex'' games, expecially the second one where you apparently have a nanoforge in every weapon that makes the relevant ammo type out of a universal base material ''as you fire''. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:53, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

:Also, I'm trying to remember: I know there's no flashback of Vulcan Raven, but wasn't there one of Sniper Wolf that showed her PSG-1 at one point? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:59, 2 June 2011 (CDT)

::The various flashbacks in Act 4 can be found [http://youtu.be/81A3yb_FATg here] and [http://youtu.be/aznWCpBYkKQ here]. You can check those out at your leisure. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 12:50, 4 June 2011 (CDT)

:::The links you're posting don't work [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:59, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

::Pardon me, they're fixed now. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:13, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Right, that's me out for today, getting sleepy. Got a lot more caps to get off this Act 1 video, though. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:13, 3 June 2011 (CDT)

:I think if you see Sniper Wolf's PSG-1 it's part of Crying Wolf's death scene or Naomi's (I seem to recall there's an X button prompt when Otacon is getting upset about that whole thing where everyone he displays the slightest affection for dies instantly), which that doesn't have. Regardless, been a little busy, but should have some new caps up soon. I'm trying to get everything with a Browning M2, so IIRC I still need the Stryker MGS from Act 2, the Humvee in Act 3 and the derelict M1 tank in the hanger in Act 4. I'll finally be able to take that "Incomplete" down once I get a shot of Rex, Ray or one of ''Missouri's'' Phalanxes. Also might see if I can ID those two giant cannons on Liquid's boat, at least in a caption. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:10, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

::I was right, you ''do'' have an X button flashback there. There's also a painting of Big Boss holding his old Mark 22 in Big Mama's church, because it makes sense for one of those to be there. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:12, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

Having never had a chance to really pay attention to the Vamp / Raiden fight until now, I must admit I laughed my ass off at the part where Raiden has both arms pinned to his back and so blocks Vamp's arm and then throws him using only his teeth. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:36, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

Ok, going to be redoing all these caps soon (seen [[Dark Sector]] for why, comparing the new shots with the ones of the Spectre and G36; I've now got an official Sony component cable, so the red after-image from my third-party cable on the [[Bodycount]] page is gone). Going to be kind of "fun" trying to get the same shots all over again, I'll probably be updating all the basic weapon images tomorrow or so and then starting on recording the levels. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:53, 24 September 2011 (CDT)

:The things we do for this wiki . . . well, I'm glad you're willing to get more screenshots over something that isn't very visible on the thumbnails. Are you talking about the red-tinged edges that can be seen on some of your screenshots on the Bodycount page? That's known as chromatic abberration, but I can't see much of it on the MGS4 screenshots myself. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:01, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::Naw, the red was just why I was holding out for the Sony cable, that's why it isn't on the Dark Sector images (I now have it). The reason I'm going to replace these images is they're taken using a much lower-resolution capture device than the one I now have (a Pinnacle Dazzle rather than a Hauppage HD-PVR). You'll see the difference. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:45, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

OK, here's the difference:

[[Image:MGS4-1911Cus.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]
[[Image:MGS4-M1911Cus-HQ.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]
I'll resize the rest to 1280x720 or so rather than all of them being as big as that one, it's kinda unnecessary when they're only shown on the page at 600px anyway. The weird effect at full resolution is how the pause menu is actually supposed to look, to those not familiar with MGS4. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:50, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:YES. Better resolution is ALWAYS welcome. Looking forward to seeing more MGS "gun porn" in HD, as well as seeing some other issues resolved (such as whether the M10 and M60E4 are closed-bolt firearms in this game or their original open-bolt versions, just how Old Snake holds the M10 in a two-handed fashion with no foregrip, suppressor, or strap to put his offhand on, etc.). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 07:01, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::If Snake is holding the MAC-10 in a two-handed grip without the aid of an foregrip, suppressor, or strap, he would hold it in a Weaver-stance or a CAR-stance. I saw a screen shot of him using the MAC-10 and he held it in a Weaver-stance like a handgun while utilizing the stock, which makes good practical sense. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:28, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:I see. Regardless, I'm surprised that Kojima didn't slap on a "modernizing conversion" for the MAC-10 in this game, such as made available by [http://www.max-11.com/ Lage Mfg], which in short makes the gun much easier to handle by increasing the length of the barrel and handguard to add space for rails (and their accessories), a foregrip and folding buttstock, along with a mechanism that reduces the rate of fire to 600 RPM from 1100 RPM. This sort of conversion kit would essentially turn the MAC-10 into a close competitor for the HK UMP, except that this "MAX-10" version would be easier to instinctively reload since the magazine goes in the pistol grip. Too bad that the only .45 SMG in this game just isn't that good; whatever else can be said about the MAC-10, ergonomics were clearly not emphasized in its original design. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:45, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

::From what I know, the MAC-10 has inferior reliability compared to the UZI and pretty much any other SMG design. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:07, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

Just a couple of new images tonight, going to do the rest of this video tomorrow. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:44, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and here's Otacon explaining why the AK jammed:

[[Image:MGS4-Otaconsez.jpg|thumb|none|600px|"Also, there was apparently more than one cartridge in the chamber. That might have been a problem too."]]

[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:48, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:I think that's pretty cool he explains what possibly happened to the weapon, you don't get that in very many games. But it still doesn't explains ''how'' this happened to an AK, I could expect that from an AR, but an AK? Like I said on the page, Snake must have REALLY bad luck. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:25, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::Well, he's not the only one, I noticed at least one of the rebels struggling with the charging handle of his AK during the same sequence. It must just be ''really'' bad ammo. Maybe it's special ''Far Cry 2'' ammo made from blasting caps and dynamite. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:36, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::I think you just solved it mate. ;) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:20, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

Had a few problems with my footage being blurry (not in the shots I actually uploaded, mind) which I think is my old PC. A suitably beefy PC should be winging it's way to me in the next couple of weeks. :D [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:45, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

:I've already had my new beefed-up PC a couple of weeks. :D Now I'm counting down the days for BF3. >:B - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:09, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

::Then let us do as men have done for centuries and compare the lengths of our, um, computers. Mine's going to be an i7 2600K overclocked to 4.6 GHz, SLI 2 x 1,536 meg GeForce cards, 16 gigs RAM, 120 gig SSD + 3 terabyte data drive. I imagine it'll just be able to scare Crysis into running. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 23:05, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

== Screenshot requests ==

I know Evil Tim's busy, but this might be a good opportunity to let him know what screenshots might be appropriate to showcase each weapon.
*Five-seveN pistol: Old Snake commits "sexual assault" at gunpoint by holding up a FROG trooper with her own pistol while patting her down for items, along with the "crotch grab" move.
*MAC-10/G18C: Old Snake tries out for a movie of "Bonnie and Clyde" while performing a drive-by shooting from Big Mama's motorcycle.
*M4 Custom: For some reason, Old Snake has taken up the habit of shooting this carbine while holding it sideways.
*Shansi Type 17: Big Mama gets her awesome on by shooting up some Dwarf Gekko drones with her Type 17 pistol.
*MP7A1: Isn't there a PMC in Act 2 carrying this weapon who is distracted by a Playboy Magazine?
Sometimes funny screenshots make entries on this wiki all the more entertaining to read. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:09, 4 June 2011 (CDT)

*Might try that
*Almost certainly going to do something like that
*When does he hold it sideways, again?
*Yes
*Yes

Also, totally going to show how you can kill a Gekko with the SVD. Just a note: you don't have to call him Old Snake in every caption. The game only calls him that occasionally and he's "Snake" the rest of the time, and it's not like this is MGS1 and there's two people potentially called "Snake" (even in that case, they always call him Snake and his brother Liquid, so there's only minimal potential for confusion). I could see there being some issues with what to call Big Boss in 3, but this guy is still Snake. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:06, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

:I call him "Old Snake" because that's the name above his lifebar, and because that name clearly refers to him in the MGS4 time period. Of course, if you really want to be pedantic, it could be argued that Liquid Snake and Solid Snake should have called each other Liquid and Solid instead of Liquid and Snake (I think the latter combination was chosen because it sounds less silly). If you prefer to just call him Snake in the article, feel free to change that part pack. And Old Snake holds his M4A1 carbine sideways once when engaging the Pieuvre Armement PMCs who are taking Naomi away after headshotting Vamp. Another US Marine aboard the Missouri holds his M4A1 Carbine while trembling with fear as the Dwarf Gekkos execute a boarding action right outside the Missouri's bridge. That's all I can remember right now. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:37, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and if you want to show the Vulcan Cannons on the Missouri battleship, shouldn't you include the dramatic close-up shot of its CIWS cannons firing like hell trying to intercept the swarm of anti-ship missiles launched from Outer Haven? The one available now only shows the CIWS cannons in a distant shot. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:58, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:The one you're thinking of is a rather dull closeup of the installation from the ''rear'', I wanted this one because it shows the main guns and looks awesome. The Phalanx shots are exclusively taken to show off ''Missouri'', the installations can piss off. :P [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:15, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

Incidentally

[[Image:MGS4-M61-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Ray should not have been allowed to use the hydrocutter as it's opening attack. >:( Also, just noticed that half the "Street Fighter" attacks use the beak to grab Ray, even though it's where Snake is sitting and at least two of them would clearly kill him. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:08, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

== Question ==

Do real suppressors degrade like in MGS3 and MGS4? I think not, or at least it's ''very'' exaggerated in these game. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 11:50, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:old style wipe suppressors do degrade over time. Maxim type supressors and supressors designed after the 1960s don't degrade. You will have to clean them out after combat load but with the lenght of most computer games it should not be an issue as there isn't the time for junk to build up to the point where the supressor will fail. Basically if you take the time to clean you equipment every so often things should't go bad. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 21:32, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
::Thank you. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:45, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
:Yep, suppressors in this game are another problem with its realism. The wipe-style suppressors in MGS3 would indeed degrade, sometimes after as low as 5 to 10 shots. Modern suppressors can last for thousands of rounds of semiautomatic fire, but less if fully-automatic fire is used.
:In reality, detachable suppressors fitted to weapons with supersonic ammunition (Drebin doesn't sell subsonic versions of normally supersonic ammunition, such as 5.56mm NATO, 7.62mm NATO, etc.) would not be as stealthy as depicted, especially at the ranges you fight at in this game. Try dropping a phone book from a height of 5 feet (or 150 cm in metric) onto a hard floor that is not covered by a rug or carpet--that's close to what even the best suppressors can do. At most of the ranges you shoot at in this game, real people would definitely notice (if not necessarily know where you are) and would immediately trigger a caution phase unless your first shot killed someone who was all by his lonesome. Suppressors can't deal with the sonic boom caused by supersonic ammunition, either, which can alert people. This is why the quietest suppressed weapons use subsonic ammunition (such as .45 ACP, or Russian 9x39mm ammo, etc.), or a special integral suppressor (like that on the MP5SD2) that slows supersonic ammunition down to subsonic speeds. Even that doesn't do anything for the clacking noises caused by the cycling of a (semi)automatic weapon's action, which is why the tranquilizer pistols in MGS2, 3, and 4 all use slide locks to eliminate that.
:Another problem is that suppressors, by slowing down the hot gas from fired rounds, cause a gun to overheat faster (because the slowed gas has more time to impart its heat to the weapon). Again, this is generally not a problem unless you forgo all fire discipline and keep firing in full auto; then you might have reason to detach an overheated suppressor and put a new one in place. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:08, 6 June 2011 (CDT)
Last ime I helped put rounds through a MP5 with a detachable supressor it took a bit for the supressor to cool enough that it could be removed from the barrel. Of course we put 120 rounds through it with mostly magazine dumps as we were just testing the guns funtion.[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 22:36, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Thanks guys. Well a suppressor is not meant to suppress gun fire so people in the same room can't hear it, it's meant so people in the whole building and in the city outside the building can't hear it. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:46, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

:Oops, forgot to mention that another way to remove the "clack-clack" sounds of a firearm's action (which can be louder than a suppressed gun's muzzle blast if the suppressor is good enough), aside from slide locks. Any type of round cycling that needs to be manually operated (such as bolt action, pump-action, etc.) will eliminate that sound. Too bad the DSR-1 couldn't be suppressed in this game; combined with its bolt action you'd get a very powerful, quiet, and lethal counterpart to the Mosin Nagant tranq rifle. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:45, 10 June 2011 (CDT)

== Just checking something ==

Of the M4, Drebin says "The barrel's free floating, of course." Now, you can see from the shot of Snake firing that even the ''handguard'' isn't free-floating, but isn't it a contradiction in terms for a direct impingement rifle to have a free-floating barrel since the barrel ''has'' to be touching something other than the reciever, namely the gas tube? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:08, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
:I hear of free-floating barrels on AR-15s all the time, I think "free-floating" means nothing but the receiver (and the gas tube) is holding the barrel in place. At least, that's what I know. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:36, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
It could be a bit of "Kojima nonsense" that snuck its way into the script (kind of like how Drebin claims the PMCs love to use the M4A1 Carbine, when in fact none of them do, and the game gives you the impression that Drebin is just foisting off old, obsolete stock onto Old Snake). After all, are we really supposed to believe that Fatman from Metal Gear Solid 2 built his first atomic bomb(!) at age 10? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:56, 12 June 2011 (CDT)
::I guess it could also be a translation error of some kind, since there's a few of those knocking around; I've just got to the first case of them mangling a symmetrical sentence by having Naomi alternate "fate" and "destiny" rather than just saying "it" the second time. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:41, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:Or it could be Kojima's notoriously inconsistent stance on the realism/unrealism scale, especially when it comes to weaponry. First in MGS2 they let us render any enemy limb useless in a single lethal weapon hit (a feature that never returned), but in that same game they let us use the Stinger Missile Launcher indoors (even though that kind of weapon would cause a cave-in or flooding in the Plant chapter). And now they ask us to believe that in some scenes, professional PMC operators can't hit Snake when he's in spitting distance (such as after he shoot Vamp in the head in South America). That scene might have worked if he was hiding some distance away using Octocamo, though. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:07, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

Oh, and one more thing about the M4A1 in this game; why would you need to have a free-floating barrel on an automatic carbine? Wouldn't it just be simpler to insert a longer barrel, which would increase both accuracy and the bullet's effective range? Or, if you have the resources, you could always use better rounds (like the real life Mk 262) which have both longer effective range and accuracy than the standard 5.56mm NATO rounds in service now. That speech of Drebin's just makes him look like a "used car salesman"--it reeks of hucksterism. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:04, 21 June 2011 (CDT)

== Unknown pistol ==

Any idea what this is in Johnny Sasaki's leg holster? USP, maybe?

[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Unknown]]

[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:26, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

:Wow, even I'm a bit stumped, it's almost featureless. o_0 - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:12, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

::I was going by the features it doesn't have, more. It's got a horizontal base to the grip while holstered, which rules out any 1911-based pistol, but it doesn't have a beavertail bigger than the one on an actual beaver, so it can't be a Desert Eagle. It's obviously not any pistol that's available in the game unless it's a very small Mark 23, and a very small Mark 23 is called a USP. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:25, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

Also, am I hideously mistaken or is the Mk. 46 Mod 1 actually a Mod 0? The handguard doesn't look right for a Mod 1. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 14:01, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

:Based on what the model looks like it could be a featureless USP or P226 (it's too small for a Mark 23), but without the said "features" it's almost impossible tell what it is. It could also be just a generic "holster stuffer". :P (P.S. what's the deference between the Mk. 46 Mod 1 and the Mod 0, I've only seen the Mod 0?) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:59, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

::The forearm of the Mod 1 lacks the rail at the 12 o'clock position (FN Herestal has pictures of the Mod 1 on their website [http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF055&gid=FNG008]). There's probably other differences, but either Google is failing me, or there's no info about on the Mod 1 upgrades on the entire internet. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 18:48, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

:::[http://www.fnhusa.com/mil/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF059&gid=FNG008&mid=FNM0039 FN USA] says "improved receiver pins, a feed tray with retention pawls and a vented handguard with improved heat shield and three MIL-STD 1913 rails." Now, I've checked the reload animation and you can see it's got a 12-o-clock rail on the handguard, so it's a Mod 0. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

::Also, of those two it'd have to be the USP, the SIG would have two screws visible holding the grips on. What I can tell you is the shape is intentional; it's ''not'' the same model used in PMC holsters; the ones I checked have a diagonal base to the grip and therefore are obviously supposed to be a GSR. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:34, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

Just to add these:

[[Image:MGS4-FROG-Holster.jpg|thumb|none|600px|FROG holster weapon, probably Five-seveN]]
[[Image:MGS4-GSR-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|PMC Holster weapon, clearly GSR.]]
[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Another angle on Johnny's weapon, and one where they seem to have forgotten to add that delightful skidmark to his trousers, too.]]

Incidentally, ID'ing this one will take us up to 76 weapons with only one not ID'd (the land mine). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:25, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

But it doesn't have the finger tip-shaped slots at the mag well to be a USP ether... In the last pic of Johnny the pistol now looks like a stubby Desert Eagle because of the way the grip looks. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:53, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

:Well, there should be some closer shots of it when I finally get off my ass and get around to recording and capping stage 3, there's a lot of closeups of the Rat Patrol members at the end of that one that should settle it if it actually is something. Interestingly, Meryl also has that holster as part of her uniform, but hers is empty (Deagle the first has a horizontal chest holster). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 16:24, 16 June 2011 (CDT)

[[Image:MGS4-UnknownPistol-3.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

Think this is the best shot you're likely to get. Now, I'm going to bed, I just spent hours recording the entire third Act and at least half of the fourth and it's 3am. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:57, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:Looks kinda like a Desert Eagle with the beavertail milled down, wow this is hard. :/ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 23:27, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

::Seems it's actually a Mark 23, since Raiden's character weapon (aside from a heap of pointy things) is a Mark 23, and he has the same holster. Holster looks to be very similar to [http://airsoftbb4u.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=402 one of these]. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 19:10, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:::You could be right, but still looks off from a Mark 23, I see a metal tang on the grip like the Desert Eagle. Err. -_- [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:04, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

::::Might just be a mistake in the model. It's certainly supposed to be a Mark 23 (it's Raiden's only gun in multi), but since they never draw them (unlike FROGs and PMCs, who do draw their sidearms if they're disarmed), there was probably no obligation to actually put a drawable gun in there. I can't remember if Johnny pulls out his sidearm when they're defending the door or not, I'll have to see if they'll actually settle it for us or not. Otherwise we'll just have to say it's an inaccurate Mark 23. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:09, 27 June 2011 (CDT)

:::::Johnny does use his sidearm there. He uses a GSR. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:11, 29 June 2011 (CDT)

== Note about the M4 and the "big PMCs" ==
They ''did'' use the M4 in early builds of the game [http://ranger.gamebanana.com/img/ss/srends/thm__2863-.jpg] [http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o58/God-of-Reapers/metal-gear-solid-4-guns-of-the-p-1.jpg], but it was changed to the Mark 17 at some point for some unknown reason. Snake even got ''his'' M4 by taking it from a PMC in an early trailer. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:11, 29 June 2011 (CDT)
:Regarding the Patriot, wouldn't it fall under the same hideously ill-defined "PDW" label as the XM8 Compact? It does rather seem that PDW just stands for whatever your marketing department wants it to: HK definately called the XM8 compact a PDW in sales fluff, and invented the term because they didn't want to call their compact MP5K the MP5 Kurz Kurz as far as I can tell. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:14, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:On the subject of the M4: the article mentions that the handguard isn't free floating like Drebin says. However, I'm pretty sure the rail is carbine length KAC URX which is free floating. Also, the MP5K-PDW isn't a compact MP5K; it's an MP5K with a stock added. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 09:01, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

::Look at the shot of Snake firing the M4 into the camera and you can see there's a circular cap on the front of the rail handguard which contacts the barrel: a KAC URX doesn't have such a cap, which is why it's free-floating while this one isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:42, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

::Also the delta ring between the rail system and the receiver. URX mates with the receiver to form an uninterrupted top rail for optics. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 22:56, 24 November 2011 (CST)

PDW is indeed something of a term that is a bit too nebulous. I've even heard the term applied to the select-fire variant of the Mauser C96 being described as a PDW since it could mount a shoulder stock and used ammo that was "armour piercing." Still, the question I raised earlier on this page as to the point of mounting a free-floating handguard onto an M4A1 carbine remains--isn't a free-floating barrel mainly for sniper or designated marksmen weapons, not for CQB full-auto weapons? And wouldn't greater long-distance accuracy be achieved more simply by using a longer barrel or enhanced ammunition? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:09, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

:With regard to free-float rails: there's more to it than just accuracy. Keeping the rails from contacting the barrel means that any accessories mounted on the weapon will be affected less by the vibrations that occur during firing. This helps keep vertical grips and the like from coming loose, and any optics/lasers/IR designators mounted on the forearm will have an easier time retaining their zero. --[[User:Lynx|Lynx]] 15:12, 30 June 2011 (CDT)

Well, that does make a bit more sense, but it still sounds like the sort of thing a National Army wouldn't issue--though it wouldn't be out of place among civilians or Private Military Contractors. Don't National Armies train for accurate semiautomatic fire whenever possible from anything that isn't an LMG, and if you fire enough fully-automatic rounds to affect the zero of accessories mounted on the handguard, doesn't that mean you're doing something wrong? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:07, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

== XM8 Compact ==

Why is the XM8 Compact under the SMG/PDW section? PDW or not, 5.56x45mm should go to the Assault rifles. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 07:37, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, I was considering moving it to go with the Patriot. I'll do that tomorrow assuming someone doesn't beat me to it, and I'll remove "PDW" from the other heading since it's such a vague, useless class of weapons that seems to include everything gun company marketing departments feel like including from SMGs firing pistol rounds to compact assault rifles. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:37, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

I'm not sure about that; I think PDW is still useful to describe select-fire SCHV (small caliber, high velocity) two-handed firearms using proprietary rounds purpose-built for armour-piercing properties, like the 5.7x28mm, the 4.6x30mm, the 6.5x25mm, etc. that aren't (machine) pistols. Having said that, I would agree about how the label can be abused (the MP5K-PDW should have just received an "A" designation such as the MP5KA6 or the like). Still, I have to wonder if Akiba was given the XM8 Compact to show that Meryl "wears the pants" in their relationship--at a 9-inch barrel length, the XM8 (ultra)compact carbine is shorter than Meryl's long-barrelled Desert Eagle, which is 10 inches long.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 10:08, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

:The trouble I have with the PDW label is either (a) it just means SMG so there's no point including it or (b) it includes all the stupid things that are called PDWs but aren't SMGs. Sure, the SCHV rounds aren't all used by pistols so not all PDWs are ''technically'' SMGs, but all PDW rounds are dimensioned like pistol cartridges and most have pistols designed and / or manufactured to shoot them anyway. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:42, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

The funny thing is, if you really want to be pedantic, an SMG is really just a select-fire pistol-caliber carbine. In my view the PDW label is still useful for a narrower class of weapons than most users of the label think, and should only be used if the weapon meets all of the following characteristics.

*Proprietary PDW rounds are designed from the ground up as armour-piercing rounds (piercing Level IIIA ballistic armour or lower), and resemble miniaturized assault rifle ammunition (by virtue of its dimensions and spitzer shape) rather than traditional pistol ammunition. So by this definition the PP-2000 would not be a PDW since it's still using 9x19mm rounds, just in an armour-piercing configuration.
*A stock and foregrip must be present on the weapon for it to be considered a PDW, since both simplify aiming (which is very important in a CQB situation). So a select-fire Five-seveN or C96 are still not PDWs (instead, they are just armour-piercing machine pistols) since it lacks the ability to have both of those features. An MP5K PDW has both a stock and foregrip but doesn't meet the first requirement, and is therefore just a compact SMG with a folding stock and small foregrip.
*A true PDW must have select-fire or fully-automatic fire capability, otherwise it just becomes a fancy carbine like the PS90.

You have to admit that PDW is a more convenient acronym than something like SCHV SMG or the like. We could just go with something like "AP (armour-piercing) SMG" but that would bring stuff like the PP-2000 back into the mix. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 21:27, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

::Actually, an SMG is a super-light machine gun firing a pistol round: remember the category comes from the first world war before the concept of an intermediate round even existed. And the problem is most users of the label include most companies that say their weapons are PDWs; there's such a huge number of bad examples and so few good ones that it isn't really worth using it, IMO. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 21:42, 3 July 2011 (CDT)

:My google-fu's rather weak right now, but aside from H&K marketing derivatives of the MP5 and XM8 as PDWs I don't know of companies that are marketing SMGs or compact assault rifles with the PDW label, when in fact they don't meet the requirements I outlined earlier. Maybe you could point me in the right direction? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:32, 6 July 2011 (CDT)

::Wikipedia says the Jatimatic was marketed as a PDW back when HK invented the term, and since the 5.7mm has realised its friends would still like it if it came out as a pistol round anything that fires that is basically a subgun in the normal sense of the term. Magpul's PDR Shirow-gun fires a full-sized 5.56mm, the Chinese QCW-05 fires the 5.8x21mm pistol round, the VBR-Belgium PDW fires the 7.92x24mm pistol round...It's fair to say most things called PDWs don't qualify in the strictest sense. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:00, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:The "Shirow-gun"? And here I was thinking firearms designed for Ghost in the Shell at least made some sense, even if their service pistol caliber choice was a little iffy on the stopping power side (BTW, the Seburo Firearms page should not have been removed from this wiki). PDW rounds fired out of pistols seem a little iffy to me as well; if HK had to cancel its UCP for "inadequate ballistics in a pistol platform," what makes the Five-seveN/QSZ-92/VBR 7.92 Glock that much better? In any case, the Magpul PDR is just a compact bullpup carbine in 5.56mm NATO, and the 5.8x21mm round (how is this better than the 5.7x28mm round again?) is a miniaturized version of the Chinese 5.8x42mm assault rifle round, which makes it a PDW round. Maybe we could compromise and call them "CQDWs" for "Close Quarters Defensive Weapons" to show how they are meant to be stowed in "Close Quarters" and are most effective in CQB range as well, given their shorter cases compared to full-size assault rifle rounds? Making a poll on the forum asking whether or not the PDW label should be expunged from the site might be useful as well. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:23, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

::Again, though, I don't really see the point of using a label that's just going to cause a lot of confusion with not-examples and pseudo-examples. Anything that is categorised as a PDW in the strictest sense is basically an SMG firing AP ammunition. Not using the term rules out all the various pistols and assault rifles that would otherwise sneak into the SMG heading through the vague backdoor marked "PDW." It's sorta like having a category called "Dogs / mammals" next to one saying "cats" and expecting cats to not end up in the dog category. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

:I lol'ed at what you said about Akiba and Meryl. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:15, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

Yep, then Akiba tries to "man up" by getting the Barrett M82A2, but then finds he can't "last long." He definitely would have lasted longer if he had gotten something capable of "sustained fire" instead, like the Mk. 46 Mod. 0 coupled with an FN P90 of his own, so either he or Meryl could use the LMG for covering fire while the other goes out to loot P90 magazines from dead FROG troopers and keep wreaking merry hell as long as possible. But no, Kojima had to saddle Akiba with an incredibly impractical Barrett M82A2 (only really useful for killing larger Gekko drones and annoying unmanned Metal Gear RAYs), his old XM8 Compact and a GSR. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 17:23, 1 July 2011 (CDT)

== The MAC-10 in this game ==

Is it an open bolt (the original version) or a closed bolt version? An open bolt version wouldn't need charging after reloading, and wouldn't need to be racked unless the trigger was held down after the last round fired (after which you'd just pull it back to ready the weapon). If the MAC-10 in this game were a closed bolt version, then you would need rack the bolt if you were loading from empty and would indeed eject a round if one were still in the chamber if you racked the bolt. If Old Snake is ejecting a round from the MAC-10 after a mid-magazine reload, then wouldn't it be a closed version? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:27, 6 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'd have to check. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:09, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

Another thing you might want to examine is the M60E4; it's still an open bolt weapon last I checked (partly because open bolt weapons run cooler than closed bolt ones, an advantage on an LMG since it means you don't have to change barrels as often). Also, is the M60E4 supposed to be the "very latest model" that the rebel in the Middle Eastern Militia Safe House was boasting about? It would make more sense than an HK21E, since some PMC machine gunners use the M60E4 and it is "the very latest model" of its kind. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:45, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:Again, I'll check. In the latter case, I imagine the "very latest model" was probably supposed to be the XM8 LMG: it's the only version missing from the final game. Perhaps they gave the guy the HK21 instead because their playtesters would always kill him to get themselves a free 5.56mm machine gun with a built-in optic. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 22:30, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

Please do. Your considerable efforts on this page are much appreciated. But it wouldn't be the first time a game has used closed bolt versions of weapons that were originally open bolt; Rainbow Six Vegas 2 uses a closed bolt version of the MAC-11 machine pistol, for instance. And the XM8 LMG was always a strange one to me; while the other variants had good advantages for reliability and ease of use for their roles (since their sights didn't need zeroing, had more durable/reliable parts, along with infrared laser pointer/illuminators built into the sight), the XM8 LMG does not have a quick-swap barrel (unlike the M249, for instance) and is a closed bolt weapon which would make its heat buildup more problematic, despite the tougher barrel. In any case, all the game devs had to do to make the XM8 LMG would be to stick a Beta C-mag on the Marksman version of the XM8, since you can't use bipods in this game. The XM8 LMG would have been great in Johnathan's hands, and the standard carbine would then be given to Akiba. Even so, giving that boastful rebel an M60E4 would still require that you spend the money for accessories on a new game, so it wouldn't be as imbalanced as an XM8 LMG.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 01:34, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

== The "PMCs love the (M4)" line ==

In my edit I did NOT specify which voice track language I was referring to (for all I know, that line could also have been in the original JP version). What I was commenting on was how the recording for that scene was probably done before the decision was made to have the PMC guys use the SCAR-H rather than have them actually use the M4-type carbines (as seen in the preview images someone posted earlier). While not wrong to begin with, the fact that they didn't go back to re-do that scene based on the new weapon assignment leave me scratching my head. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 01:26, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, but it's hardly the only strange mistake made in that scene; Drebin also says it has a free-floating barrel even though there's clearly a circular end cap connecting the rail handguard to the barrel, and also that the US Army uses it even though in-game they don't. It's hard to say if it's something that used to be true, a mistake, or just Drebin playing salesman and hoping Snake doesn't notice the more obvious BS in his pitch. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:43, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

== Just found out something interesting... ==

HD remakes of all the previous games are apparently being released on PSN and possibly Live in November, so I'll hold out for them before screencapping those pages. Apparently they're going to sling in ''Peace Walker'' for PS3, too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:15, 9 July 2011 (CDT

:Are they going to retexture MGS2 and MGS3 for this collection? I hope so, because MGS2 is horribly bland with its textures, far more than MGS3 was. I'd do MGS2 myself, I don't have a capture card and the PC version I have is not well programmed for PC graphics cards, so you often end up with a lot of graphical errors. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 11:48, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

::From the sounds of things it's going to be retextured MGS2, retextured MGS3 and probably retextured Twin Snakes running in the MGS4 engine. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:02, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

:::That sounds cool. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:53, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

Last I heard it was only for the X Box 360. Good news that it's being released on the PS3 as well. Might mean that we're going to see it on the PC (fingers crossed). --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:10, 9 July 2011 (CDT)

== Drebins Camo Trousers ==
hi guys, wondering if anyone can tell me that make/pattern drebins trousers are, i mean obviously they are desert but im not sure what brand.

[http://images.wikia.com/metalgear/images/c/ca/DrebinMGS4.jpg] --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 10:48, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

Pattern would be something like "desert tiger stripe" and there's a similar-looking set of trousers [http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/original_desert_tiger_stripe.htm here]. His look to be bleached a bit lighter or something, but it's the same basic pattern. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:04, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

== A minor controversy over the Operator suicide scene ==

The English voice actor of Old Snake, David Hayter, caused a minor controversy among gaming journalists and the MGS fandom when he said he [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rH-cYUiogI didn't find Old Snake's reluctance to commit suicide to be believable]. Now that the relevant screenshot is in this wiki entry, I thought it deserved some explanation. In David Hayter's words, he says ''". . . Snake would put a bullet in, and put [the gun] in his mouth and just pop himself, like he's killed--he's killed how many countless thousands of people, and he's going to shake because he's going to kill himself? I didn't agree with that at all and begged them to change it . . . ."'' --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:05, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

:Hm, I don't really buy that. He's killed ''other'' people, sure, but confronting the end of your own existence and what might come next isn't going to be easy unless you're incredibly secure in your convictions as to what will happen (and Snake hardly strikes me as devoutly religious) or too stupid to comprehend that's what you're doing. It's not like it's a spur of the moment "I have to do this" thing, after all. Mind you, I really don't think we needed to see him going down on the Operator for quite as long as he did. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:45, 30 July 2011 (CDT)

Even so, I think he's used to fearlessly facing death, even if it's virtually certain (such as when he faced Metal Gear REX before Grey Fox intervened in MGS1, or during his hopeless duel with Fortune in MGS2). And "going down on the Operator"--that's a nice wordplay. Still, I think it's a little disappointing how what comes next is available at any difficulty--it would be more of an incentive to play on harder difficulties if you only got the complete scene after doing something such as completing the Boss Extreme difficulty or getting a Big Boss emblem. Otherwise, you'd only see:

*Old Snake smoking a last cig before fading to black and the last gunshot after finishing Liquid Easy.
*The scene where he sucks his gun off (again fading to black with the last gunshot) after finishing Solid Normal.
*A short cut after the final gunshot showing the gun and its smoking barrel in Old Snake's gnarled hand, fading to black after finishing Big Boss Hard.
*And the complete ending scene after finishing The Boss Extreme.

It would also have been a nice touch if you got to see the ghostly forms of all the people you killed throughout the game or the people Old Snake couldn't save (which means, at a minimum, Liquid Ocelot, Naomi and Big Mama) surrounding Old Snake in the cemetery as he puts the gun in his mouth, as he will join them in death very soon. Such a scene would be a nice reference to the Sorrow's River in MGS3. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 13:42, 30 July 2011 (CDT)

*I don't know, facing almost certain death is different to facing ''actual'' certain death, especially when it's for something as abstract as the human race rather than something as concrete as someone right in front of you. Also, in both those cases his other option was being killed by the thing he was facing, so he ''didn't'' pick the "certain death" option. Also, given Naomi's record for telling the truth, he's probably worried that shooting himself would just make the bullet ricochet off his superior genes, kill the person who was ''actually'' going to cure the disease and overpenetrate to also kill the world's most adorable kitten which was behind that guy. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:18, 31 July 2011 (CDT)

I think the best real world explanation on why Snake's Operator locked back when he had no mag was that he could have possibly pressed the slide release up and hence locking it back by accident. I've seen people accidentally lock the slide back when they accidentally push the slide release up with a loaded mag in. It could have just been the mistake of the animator that they drew a mag follower when there shouldn't have been a mag inside the gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:56, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

A buddy of mine told me that dropping a round into the chamber like what Snake did would really risk accidentally setting the gun off and he seriously tells me to never do that in real life for any gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:26, 24 November 2011 (CST)

::Hideo Kojima thinks so as well. He was forced to add that scene after the credits, I hear. In his mind, Snake did kill himself-protoAuthor 17:31, 24 November 2011 (CST)

"Also, given Naomi's record for telling the truth..." ...makes me facepalm at how proponents of the suicide ending stick to her claims of Snake becoming a biological weapon as if they're the words of Jesus himself. Seriously, if someone attempted to assassinate ''you'' with a biological weapon and that person later told you that you were in danger of ''becoming'' a biological weapon, would you really actually believe that person? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:14, 24 November 2011 (CST)

== Operator ==

I think Snake's main 1911 is closer to a TRP Operator than a standard MC Operator. It has a Target cut rear sight, full length guide rod, extended magazine well and front strap checkering. Standard MEUSOC 1911s like the MC Operator and the Kimber Warrior don't have these features. I know it's not a huge difference but I think it may be worth mentioning.
:I just realized that TRPs are usually bushingless. I think it's more of a frankengun with features from both but I still think it's closer to the TRP so I changed the picture. Hope no one minds.
::I think we'll stick with the MC, it's heavily modified from either regardless of what it originally might have been. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:57, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

== screenshots ==

I've taken some screen shots from MGS4 of most of the guns from a side on view I've uploaded a few as an example. The first is snake loading a cartridge into the breech of the thor, the second you can see the compensator working on the G18C, the third is snake screaming Rambo style. [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:THOR_breech_load.jpg]] [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:G18C_working_compensator.jpg]] [[http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:Rambo_Scream.jpg]]
I've got more like them if anyone wants me to upload them just want to see what you think. [[User:Whatmename|Whatmename]]

You couldn't have taken bigger screen shots? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:31, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:<s>Certainly doable, yes. I'm going to be re-doing all the other shots when I have some time off work next month, I'll pick those up at the same time.</s> Edit: oh, wait, that wasn't Excalibur asking me to take bigger ones. Nevermind, I'll take bigger ones of those things, Whatmename, don't worry about uploading yours. Best that every shot comes from the same capture device and method, it makes the page look tidier. Besides, we don't really need side-on shots of most of the weapons since we've already got the inventory images for that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:09, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

I think that screenshot from the G18C shows that the muzzle flash doesn't quite fit where the compensator port is supposed to be. I think the only video games I've seen that correctly emulate the compensated muzzle flash are Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 1 and 2. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:21, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

== M4 Custom RAS ==

Regarding the confusion regarding the RAS on the M4 custom.

The in game RAS resembles two offerings from KAC, the Carbine RAS and the free floating RAS.
[http://www.knightarmco.com/mod_weapons_1.htm Knights ArmCo RAS]

The carbine RAS replaces the standard handguards and is secured with the default delta ring and end-cap.
The free floating RAS replaces the entire handguard, including the delta ring; replacing it with a visually distinctive locking ring. The end-cap in not employed.

The in-game model has the locking ring from the free-floating RAS but the end-cap from the carbine RAS.

IMHO this was done so that the game engine wouldn't have to render the interior surfaces for the RAS and barrel.

:Given we have other errors due to using airsoft guns as models, I think it's more likely that they used an airsoft replica. A cheaply made plastic RAS might have issues with snapping off if it wasn't secured at both ends. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 18:47, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:Also, I'm going to be replacing almost every picture on this page with HD versions soon, so don't worry too much about new ones, it just gives me more work. Put any suggestions here or on my talk page. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 19:02, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Heckler & Koch XM8

2011-12-28T01:58:03Z

Researcher: /* XM8 Rail Model */

==Reasons for failure?==

Supposedly this weapons system was to become the new standard rifle of the US army, but I'm at a loss as to why it was eventually cancelled. The "obvious answers" might be that "American weapons companies like having their stranglehold on equipping such a nice customer as the US army" or that "H&K didn't bid low enough" (as said by the old army truism "remember, all of our equipment was made by the lowest bidder"), but I think there's more to the story than either of those.

H&K's bid to make this "modular weapons system" adaptable to four battle field roles (standard carbine for standard infantry use, compact carbine for PDW use, automatic rifle with bipod and hi-capacity magazine for SAW-type use, and finally a designated marksman variant with a longer barrel and better optics) certainly sounds like a "hostile takeover" strategy of the corporate kind--was it possibly too ambitious and too threatening to corporate interested to have all those weapon types supplant all those individual weapons being used (and paid for) by the US armed forces? Asking everyone to "hand over your M4s, your M249 SAWs, your FN P90s, and your M14s--we've got something better than those which will do all 4 jobs!" definitely could cause some stocks to fall.

Finally, if the XM8 really is just the G36 in a different exterior, why didn't they make a more ambitious and less conventional design, possibly in a bullpup formation? The SA80 (also designed by H&K) had its hiccups early on but appears to be a reliable weapon today, and with the experience gained from its development and deployment I don't see why a better version could be made for the XM8 project. The ambidexterity problem could even be solved with a little ingenuity, kind of like how the FN-F2000 is ambidextrous not because it ejects down like the FN P90 does, but because it dribbles rather than spits spent casings.

I would like to see more of this rifle in movies and games, possibly even with more use of its "transformational capabilities" as well. Seeing a film character rapidly change his XM8 compact carbine variant to a DMR variant could be nice.

Any answers from those in the know would be appreciated. [[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

look like arming an army is more complected then it seems. Rex095

My take is it failed for a number of reasons. I am a bit of a fan of the XM8 but the biggest design flaw I see is that it lacks Picatinny rails. It only has the Picatinny Attachment Points for mounting of optics. The advantage to that is optics don't need to be zeroed quite as much, but in the real world that's useless because you can't put any existing optics on. Plus, no rails on the side or bottom, so no attachment of lasers (although I've heard the XM8 has an infrared laser built into the optic, feel free to correct me) and you can't attach the M203. While its reloading method is possibly the most ergonomic I've seen, it feeds from G36 mags, and the U.S. uses the STANAG magazine found in the M4/M16.

And yes, cost does have a huge effect to it. I've never seen the cost per unit for the XM8, but I can imagine that it can be pretty expensive. Also, the M16 platform has been in use for so long and it's been drilled so far into the heads of some people that they have trouble letting go of it or accepting that any other design completely different from it might work. Sorry, that was just personal opinion.

One last big malfunction it had is that the reciever melted during extended automatic fire. The sad part is that if HK had put more money into that I'm sure they could've solved it.

I think the biggest thing is just the fact that the U.S. military just doesn't like to change anything and they find no new need for a new rifle. Colt themselves said it took them over a decade to get an extractor spring changed on the M4. The M16/M4 is probably here to stay for a very very long time. [[User:Mandaloin|Mandaloin]] 09:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The production cost for an XM8 is about 400$... The cost for an M4 is 600$ and that of an M16 is 800-900$

:WHOA WHOA WHOA! That is NOT true, The company HAS to sell something to make money on, it costs I would estimate $200-$400 dollars for both the M16 and M4, the Military buys them at a cheaper price than the price we see on the shelves at the gunstore. The way HK does business I'm sure the XM8 would have sold for more to the military.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Weight and the LMG version were the official reasons for its cancelation. The receiver melting occurred when they were trying to reduce the weight of the weapon to around 4 lbs. Current test/prototype models have increased the weight and the problem has supposedly gone. The LMG aspect also caused issue as there was no easy way to swap barrels if the barrel overheated (though barrels overheating in and of itself was never an issue). Also it failed to improve over the M4/M16 100% in all aspects of weapons performance, which was a mandate put out by the government. One last thing was while most versions of the XM8 used the proprietary mounting system (the circles on the side of the gun), their were some concept models late in testing with traditional rails.

There is a better modular weapons system coming out anyway the Remington ACR.

It failed because, simply put, testing proved it wasn't what the Army wanted. New weapon systems aren't funded and fielded simply because they run a little cleaner. It would be a massive waste of money when you add up the costs (the new weapons themselves, new spare parts, new magazines, retraining of troops to know how it ticks... we're talking in the hundreds of billions of dollars here) and compare that to the negligible advantage it provides (it's got a piston and... wait, what else?). And switching to completely new weapon systems in the middle of two wars poses the real possibility of logistical complications (i.e., getting M16 magazines and spare M4 barrels when your entire unit has XM8s) rendering combat units utterly defenseless in hostile territory. It may look all space-age like a laser gun, but the DoD simply does not want or need it when the M4 does the job just as efficiently. Until some country decides to adopt it, it's going to remain ''dead''. If the big green Army wanted a gas piston so bad, M4s and M16s are easily converted with new upper receivers without the need for retraining. And not to mention the SCAR will eventually filter down into regular combat units as time goes on. I'm not saying there aren't better small arms out there, but the XM8 doesn't provide much of an advantage of the current issue M16/M4. And like is pointed out in the post above mine, the Remington ACR takes everything the XM8 is and throws the full modularity of the M4 into it. And please, people, '''sign your posts'''. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I could see the XM8 still being useful to small teams n' such, being able to swap out parts and magazines with your squadmates in the field no matter what role they play because they have the same base weapon as you could be a big advantage. But the ACR could probably do the same thing and it's supposedly better, but my point still stands. Good for small teams, bad for an entire military. I expect that we won't phase out the M4 or M16 until the next revolutionary change to the gun world. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 07:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Well the 416 is coming close to doing that, wouldn't you agree?
--[[Special:Contributions/67.86.148.125|67.86.148.125]] 15:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

*It's an AR-15 with a gas piston. I believe that specific "revolutionary" development has been done before quite a few times, starting in about 1969. To be exact, it's a gas system stolen wholesale from the AR-18. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 15:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to the 416 as a next revolutionary step in firearm design, I was trying to state that the HK416 is coming close to replacing the M16 family, at least some branches of the US military.
:The same can be said of the of the SCAR. It's already being used by the Rangers and Border Patrol. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 16:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I guess you're right. But that's the only way I could think of the XM8 being of any use to our military, but if the SCAR already has that role then it's pretty much worthless to us. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 18:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

:If the HK 416 is that much better, I don't understand why it scored lower than the XM8 in the "extreme dust environment" test. Still, the XM8 system had a lot of potential that could have been harnessed in its extra reliability and modularity. Changing the internals to accept STANAG magazines, and to be more heat resistant as well as using standard rail systems could be done relatively easily. I'm surprised that more "Private Military Contractors" or SF operators haven't picked up on this gun given its modularity and thus its ability to be reconfigured easily between the demands of different missions. Even if this gun disappears into history like the OICW did, it'd be nice to see it in more games and movies. It's a nice break from AKs and AR-15s. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 03:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The HK 416 scored lower because AR-15s weren't designed to take a piston; that's what the AR-18 was for. The main reason why the XM8 failed was because aside from reliability (which is still a debatable point, given that the US has been running DI M16s/M4s for decades without mass failure), the XM8 only really met par with M16/M4 effectiveness. When it comes down to it, you're still firing a 5.56mm NATO round out of a carbine, and that isn't worth phasing out so many M16/M4s that do the exact same thing. What I'd have liked to have seen from the "dust environment" test would be an HK G36A1 in the mix; for all we know, the XM8 was just an "updated" G36 that HK tried to sell to the US. The XM8 inherited its proprietary magazines and ambidextrous cocking handle from it, and who knows what else.

They've entered the XM8 into the Individual Carbine competition, and my guess is that it'll fail there too.

[[Special:Contributions/72.189.150.127|72.189.150.127]]AUA

I think there were heating issues with the XM8 during testings and they never resolved the problem. Also I've seen pics of the XM8 being fielded in Iraq but I don't think these guys were US military. They weren't dressed in any familiar uniforms. Maybe they were contractors. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:I recently discovered an article from the Army Times website that [http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/army_xm8_rifle_070531/ blames the Army bureaucracy] for the demise of the XM8. The pressure to open up the bids to competition probably came in part because FN didn't want their lucrative M249 contracts with the army to be superseded by the LMG form of the XM8, though I'm sure Colt was pretty ticked that H&K might be elbowing into its commercial territory too. Can anyone tell me just how (un)true this article is? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::Army Times isn't owned or affiliated with the ''actual'' US Army, so I'd take what they claim with a grain of sand. It's doubtful we'll ever know the ''concretely true'' reason for its failure, but it's a fact that the XM8 and M4 are pretty much on par in terms of effectiveness and that isn't going to justify buying a million new carbines that do the M4's job no better than the M4 already does. Besides, try attaching a vertical forgrip, ACOG, PEQ-15, and Surefire light to an XM8. You ''can't'', because none of those mods (mods which won't be going away anytime soon) are backwards compatible with PCAP and the gun's existing RDS is permanently attached. As a result, you have to buy from HK, in addition to the carbines themselves, all new accessories amounting to even more millions of dollars. People claim Colt has a stranglehold on the US military, adopting the XM8 would have been HK wrapping a noose around the US military's neck and putting their hand on the lever which opens the trapdoor beneath its feet. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:50, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

:Is the US Army collaborating so much with H&K really such a bad thing? Didn't the British government collaborate with them a lot way back in the 80s when the time came to refit their SA80 rifles? They also bought a controlling share during those days, too, so the British government called the shots then, not H&K. Nothing bad happened there with that close collaboration then. What problems do you foresee with a similar collaboration between the USA and H&K?

:I also remember two of the major "user feedback" points of the M4 Carbine were that they wanted a lighter and more reliable weapon. The XM8 delivered on both. The accessory problems you mentioned would not have been difficult to overcome. The PCAP system was supposedly developed because it kept the "zero" of accessories more securely (not really an issue with foregrips, but definitely an issue with laser pointers, grenade launchers, and scopes/non-iron sights), but the earlier XM8 prototypes did have conventional rail systems which could be reverted to if necessary. Subcontracting another company to build PCAP-compatible accessories could be another option. Further, changing the chambering to 6.8x43mm or the like shouldn't be too much of a problem (if it's done before mass production is approved) if a caliber change is deemed to be necessary. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 19:43, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

::I don't see how changing the caliber to 6.8 would be any improvement either when you consider that a number of piston ARs in that caliber are readily available already. In addition, FN has a forthcoming 6.8mm caliber conversion for the SCAR system and the ACR is easily converted to 6.8mm at the user level. All three platforms are pretty much on par with the XM8 in terms of effectiveness ''and'' are compatible with currently fielded accessories (why buy millions of new accessories when the currently fielded ones work just fine?). The weight decrease is negligible at best with the current weight of the carbine variant at 6.4 lbs [http://www.hksystems.com.au/xm8.htm] compared to 6.9 lbs for most loaded AR-type carbines. True, the ACR and SCAR-L are a bit heavier at around 7 lbs or so each, but both offer much more adaptability OTS than the XM8. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem as well with the XM8 is that the US Marine Corp has a serious problem about changing their rifles. If the XM8 was adopted by the Army, it would have taken a while before the Marines would abandon their M16s and M4s. They always seem to be the last guys to change their current weapons for the new thing. Also the SCAR's been having problems as well getting adopted [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:The Marines don't have the budget to blow on weapons programs left and right like the Army does, though. When the Corps adopts a new piece of kit, they need to get as much use out of it as possible because they don't have the cash to replace it right away should it fail. Think of how many combined billions of dollars the US Army sank into the Advanced Combat Rifle, XM29, XM8, XM307, and XM312 programs only for none to be adopted, then consider that now they're (A) set on upgrading all their M4s and (B) simultaneously running a competition for a completely new carbine to supersede the M4. Add to that the LSAT program and the XM25 airburst grenade launcher (the only so-far salvageable part of the OICW program). And that's just in the ''small arms'' category alone. Running development programs all willy-nilly like that would ''bankrupt'' the USMC. But I wouldn't say the Marines are ''always'' last to adopt the new stuff. The M16A2 and A4 were born within the USMC, after all. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 07:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
:::From what i heard from a friend of mine, and im not sure if this is true or not, and someone might have already said this, but the XM8 was too expensive too manufacture, which confuses me because i thought the rifle was made out of plastic. Can someone confirm that or is my friend full of s**t?--[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]
::::Just because a rifle is made from composite that doesn't by any means make it cheaper to manufacture. The bare rifle itself was more expensive than an M4, I believe in the order of twice the price. It was also actually heavier than the M4 despite having a 2" shorter barrel. However, the sighting unit included a sight, lasers and illuminators so with this fitted, an M4 with equivalent capability would have been heavier and more expensive. I think most of this has been said above, but have heard there were several reasons why it was dropped, including the cost issue, overheating problems in desert testing, lack of significant improvement over current weapons, non STANAG magazine, abandonment of MIL-STD-1913 rails and replacement with PCAP (Picatinny Combat Attachment Points) system and political problems with using a non American made weapon (mostly stirred up by Colt I believe). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 21:32, 3 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::"Political problems with using a non American made weapon" Most of the weapon used in the US Military are made by *cough* FN *cough*, even M16s nowadays are made by FN! - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:03, 4 November 2011 (CDT)
::::::Most weapons are still made by Colt, as all M4s so far have been Colt made and not all M16s are made by FN, and I believe a lot more M4s are around than M16s these days (at least from what I've seen). Regardless, there is a big difference between a US designed weapon having some of the manufacturing contracted out to someone else than adopting a foreign designed weapon, at least politically speaking. Would be taken by some as admitting that the Germans are better at designing guns than the Americans. Don't think this whole facet was the main reason the XM8 went away (got the impression from what I've read that it was an issue created by Colt to try and play the patriotic card), but certainly didn't help its chances. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:24, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::::I'm not arguing with you. :) I think H&K would have been more successful if they just entered they're regular G36, I think it would cost atleast as much as an FN SCAR if not less. What do you know/think? I thought I remember seeing a source saying the G36V cost $950~1000 USD. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:45, 5 November 2011 (CDT)

::::::::But the FN SCAR and XM8 were developed in completely different programs. The XM8 was supposed to be light, with a target weight around 4 lbs. They were never able to get it that light and when they got close the weapon developed problems overheating and even melting, which is why the XM8 had all the overheating problems while the G36 did not. The SCAR, on the other hand, was developed under the idea of having one weapon system with multiple calibers to allow solders to preform multiple different rolls while only needing to be familiar with one weapon platform. The individual weapon cost between the SCAR, XM8, and HK416 vs the M4 are not significant, however there are lots of surplus M4 parts that the army has accumulated over the years so maintenance costs on the M4 would be less than what it would be for a new gun, which is something that has to be considered when changing out a weapon system on such a large scale as the US Army or Marines.[[User:Dover500|Dover500]] 17:53, 5 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::Good God, the way this is going America will still have M16s and M4s in 2500 AD. M16A20 and M4A15 anyone? :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]]

== Hopefully no more seeing these in movies ==

I really hope a lot of action movies and even games of the future to come would stop using the XM8 to be the image of "the rifle of the future" look. Even I made the naive mistake once and thought this rifle was cool, I hope that new comers into the world of firearms will wise up quick and see just because it looks kinda cool and spacy...doesn't mean it's NOT a complete piece of crap. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

How is the XM8 a piece of crap? Nobody seems to think there's an middleground with the XM8. Either you love it or you think it's a disgrace not worthy to even be thought of. Why do you hate it so much?

Probably just another M16/4-Series Fanboy whose jaw would drop to the ground in awe, when the XM8 blows the M4 to pieces in reliability-tests.
:Till the XM8 starts melting.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

why is there a wierd cartoonish/not-real picture of the XM8 on some pages.itlooks like it has been digitally made ona computer [[user:smish34|smish34]]
:Probably because a "weird cartoonish/not-real" picture is easier to make than a picture of one of the couple hundred prototypes in existence is to get. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
::I believe those pictures are from the official Army press releases. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XM8-Poster.jpg] --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 01:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I still think that the XM8 will still apear in film, and game based couple years in to the future.

That's because when designers look to a "future" gun, instead of being original and making one up, they pick a gun that is not on any production scale at all. They might as well have the G11 star in games and future war movies again because it was so future like when that thing came out [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
:Do me a favor and look at the Ghost Recon: Future Soldier talk page. ''Those'' monstrosities are what results when game designers try to be original and make a gun up. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:XM8 might be better if it wasn't all fucking plastic,pardon my language. In fact,a lot of weapons would be better,but wouldn't be used in mass production if you know,more steel work would be involved. Of coures,there are holes in the design for steel worked weapons as well as there are synthetic weapons and weapon parts. But this is an opinion from someone who thought there was no difference between clip and magazine,which there are several.--[[Special:Contributions/50.42.75.36|50.42.75.36]] 02:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
::Yeah for one thing they are not the same thing. Anyway, the fact that the XM8 is made of "plastic" as you call it isn't the problem. Many successful rifles are made of "plastic". The AUG, the G36, the F2000, the Tavor, the QBZ series. There is nothing wrong with the polymer material. It can be as strong as steel and make the weapon lighter and that is what the infantry needs. Lighter weapon means lighter the load and more ammo they can carry into battle without the fatigue. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
:::Well,not to be Randy P. Goatboy,but why the heck did SCAR succeed the XM8? Was it more...adaptable? With the SCAR-H,SCAR-L,the subtypes of those...was that the reason it won? So to speak?--[[User:Pump Shotty Justice|Pump_Shotty_Justice]]
::::A modified XM8 (how it differed from the original I have no idea) did compete in the SCAR program, but the FN beat it out. I'm unsure of any specifics, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:28, 7 November 2011 (CST)
:::::I am going purely by memory so might be totally wrong, but I think the original competition phase of the SCAR was in 2004 and known as SOFCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat (or might be Capable?) Assault Rifle), and the contestants were the Robinson Arms XCR, FN SCAR and the XM8. Remember reading that the XM8 was an improved version, but I believe it was just the late model of the XM8 which is the black/grey one on the main page as opposed to the tan. Only differences (there are supposed to be a dozen or so) I notice are the more attachment points, birdcage flash hider and the folding sights built into the carry handle. Assume the main reason it failed in that there was no caliber modularity which was one of the things SOCOM were looking for. This is the same version of the rifle that was used in the 2007 extreme dust testing the army did (which the XM8 won) which was a four way comparison between the M4, HK416, FN SCAR and the XM8 ([http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/military_rifle/index.html Video here]). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:42, 7 November 2011 (CST)

== XM8 Rail Model ==
I've heard that there were actually some XM8 prototypes with rail sets, but I have personally never seen one. Does anyone have pics of these? Would they be a good addition to the page? [[User:Researcher|Researcher]]

Talk:Heckler & Koch XM8

2011-12-28T01:44:53Z

Researcher:

==Reasons for failure?==

Supposedly this weapons system was to become the new standard rifle of the US army, but I'm at a loss as to why it was eventually cancelled. The "obvious answers" might be that "American weapons companies like having their stranglehold on equipping such a nice customer as the US army" or that "H&K didn't bid low enough" (as said by the old army truism "remember, all of our equipment was made by the lowest bidder"), but I think there's more to the story than either of those.

H&K's bid to make this "modular weapons system" adaptable to four battle field roles (standard carbine for standard infantry use, compact carbine for PDW use, automatic rifle with bipod and hi-capacity magazine for SAW-type use, and finally a designated marksman variant with a longer barrel and better optics) certainly sounds like a "hostile takeover" strategy of the corporate kind--was it possibly too ambitious and too threatening to corporate interested to have all those weapon types supplant all those individual weapons being used (and paid for) by the US armed forces? Asking everyone to "hand over your M4s, your M249 SAWs, your FN P90s, and your M14s--we've got something better than those which will do all 4 jobs!" definitely could cause some stocks to fall.

Finally, if the XM8 really is just the G36 in a different exterior, why didn't they make a more ambitious and less conventional design, possibly in a bullpup formation? The SA80 (also designed by H&K) had its hiccups early on but appears to be a reliable weapon today, and with the experience gained from its development and deployment I don't see why a better version could be made for the XM8 project. The ambidexterity problem could even be solved with a little ingenuity, kind of like how the FN-F2000 is ambidextrous not because it ejects down like the FN P90 does, but because it dribbles rather than spits spent casings.

I would like to see more of this rifle in movies and games, possibly even with more use of its "transformational capabilities" as well. Seeing a film character rapidly change his XM8 compact carbine variant to a DMR variant could be nice.

Any answers from those in the know would be appreciated. [[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

look like arming an army is more complected then it seems. Rex095

My take is it failed for a number of reasons. I am a bit of a fan of the XM8 but the biggest design flaw I see is that it lacks Picatinny rails. It only has the Picatinny Attachment Points for mounting of optics. The advantage to that is optics don't need to be zeroed quite as much, but in the real world that's useless because you can't put any existing optics on. Plus, no rails on the side or bottom, so no attachment of lasers (although I've heard the XM8 has an infrared laser built into the optic, feel free to correct me) and you can't attach the M203. While its reloading method is possibly the most ergonomic I've seen, it feeds from G36 mags, and the U.S. uses the STANAG magazine found in the M4/M16.

And yes, cost does have a huge effect to it. I've never seen the cost per unit for the XM8, but I can imagine that it can be pretty expensive. Also, the M16 platform has been in use for so long and it's been drilled so far into the heads of some people that they have trouble letting go of it or accepting that any other design completely different from it might work. Sorry, that was just personal opinion.

One last big malfunction it had is that the reciever melted during extended automatic fire. The sad part is that if HK had put more money into that I'm sure they could've solved it.

I think the biggest thing is just the fact that the U.S. military just doesn't like to change anything and they find no new need for a new rifle. Colt themselves said it took them over a decade to get an extractor spring changed on the M4. The M16/M4 is probably here to stay for a very very long time. [[User:Mandaloin|Mandaloin]] 09:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The production cost for an XM8 is about 400$... The cost for an M4 is 600$ and that of an M16 is 800-900$

:WHOA WHOA WHOA! That is NOT true, The company HAS to sell something to make money on, it costs I would estimate $200-$400 dollars for both the M16 and M4, the Military buys them at a cheaper price than the price we see on the shelves at the gunstore. The way HK does business I'm sure the XM8 would have sold for more to the military.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Weight and the LMG version were the official reasons for its cancelation. The receiver melting occurred when they were trying to reduce the weight of the weapon to around 4 lbs. Current test/prototype models have increased the weight and the problem has supposedly gone. The LMG aspect also caused issue as there was no easy way to swap barrels if the barrel overheated (though barrels overheating in and of itself was never an issue). Also it failed to improve over the M4/M16 100% in all aspects of weapons performance, which was a mandate put out by the government. One last thing was while most versions of the XM8 used the proprietary mounting system (the circles on the side of the gun), their were some concept models late in testing with traditional rails.

There is a better modular weapons system coming out anyway the Remington ACR.

It failed because, simply put, testing proved it wasn't what the Army wanted. New weapon systems aren't funded and fielded simply because they run a little cleaner. It would be a massive waste of money when you add up the costs (the new weapons themselves, new spare parts, new magazines, retraining of troops to know how it ticks... we're talking in the hundreds of billions of dollars here) and compare that to the negligible advantage it provides (it's got a piston and... wait, what else?). And switching to completely new weapon systems in the middle of two wars poses the real possibility of logistical complications (i.e., getting M16 magazines and spare M4 barrels when your entire unit has XM8s) rendering combat units utterly defenseless in hostile territory. It may look all space-age like a laser gun, but the DoD simply does not want or need it when the M4 does the job just as efficiently. Until some country decides to adopt it, it's going to remain ''dead''. If the big green Army wanted a gas piston so bad, M4s and M16s are easily converted with new upper receivers without the need for retraining. And not to mention the SCAR will eventually filter down into regular combat units as time goes on. I'm not saying there aren't better small arms out there, but the XM8 doesn't provide much of an advantage of the current issue M16/M4. And like is pointed out in the post above mine, the Remington ACR takes everything the XM8 is and throws the full modularity of the M4 into it. And please, people, '''sign your posts'''. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I could see the XM8 still being useful to small teams n' such, being able to swap out parts and magazines with your squadmates in the field no matter what role they play because they have the same base weapon as you could be a big advantage. But the ACR could probably do the same thing and it's supposedly better, but my point still stands. Good for small teams, bad for an entire military. I expect that we won't phase out the M4 or M16 until the next revolutionary change to the gun world. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 07:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Well the 416 is coming close to doing that, wouldn't you agree?
--[[Special:Contributions/67.86.148.125|67.86.148.125]] 15:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

*It's an AR-15 with a gas piston. I believe that specific "revolutionary" development has been done before quite a few times, starting in about 1969. To be exact, it's a gas system stolen wholesale from the AR-18. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 15:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to the 416 as a next revolutionary step in firearm design, I was trying to state that the HK416 is coming close to replacing the M16 family, at least some branches of the US military.
:The same can be said of the of the SCAR. It's already being used by the Rangers and Border Patrol. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 16:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I guess you're right. But that's the only way I could think of the XM8 being of any use to our military, but if the SCAR already has that role then it's pretty much worthless to us. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 18:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

:If the HK 416 is that much better, I don't understand why it scored lower than the XM8 in the "extreme dust environment" test. Still, the XM8 system had a lot of potential that could have been harnessed in its extra reliability and modularity. Changing the internals to accept STANAG magazines, and to be more heat resistant as well as using standard rail systems could be done relatively easily. I'm surprised that more "Private Military Contractors" or SF operators haven't picked up on this gun given its modularity and thus its ability to be reconfigured easily between the demands of different missions. Even if this gun disappears into history like the OICW did, it'd be nice to see it in more games and movies. It's a nice break from AKs and AR-15s. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 03:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The HK 416 scored lower because AR-15s weren't designed to take a piston; that's what the AR-18 was for. The main reason why the XM8 failed was because aside from reliability (which is still a debatable point, given that the US has been running DI M16s/M4s for decades without mass failure), the XM8 only really met par with M16/M4 effectiveness. When it comes down to it, you're still firing a 5.56mm NATO round out of a carbine, and that isn't worth phasing out so many M16/M4s that do the exact same thing. What I'd have liked to have seen from the "dust environment" test would be an HK G36A1 in the mix; for all we know, the XM8 was just an "updated" G36 that HK tried to sell to the US. The XM8 inherited its proprietary magazines and ambidextrous cocking handle from it, and who knows what else.

They've entered the XM8 into the Individual Carbine competition, and my guess is that it'll fail there too.

[[Special:Contributions/72.189.150.127|72.189.150.127]]AUA

I think there were heating issues with the XM8 during testings and they never resolved the problem. Also I've seen pics of the XM8 being fielded in Iraq but I don't think these guys were US military. They weren't dressed in any familiar uniforms. Maybe they were contractors. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:I recently discovered an article from the Army Times website that [http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/army_xm8_rifle_070531/ blames the Army bureaucracy] for the demise of the XM8. The pressure to open up the bids to competition probably came in part because FN didn't want their lucrative M249 contracts with the army to be superseded by the LMG form of the XM8, though I'm sure Colt was pretty ticked that H&K might be elbowing into its commercial territory too. Can anyone tell me just how (un)true this article is? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::Army Times isn't owned or affiliated with the ''actual'' US Army, so I'd take what they claim with a grain of sand. It's doubtful we'll ever know the ''concretely true'' reason for its failure, but it's a fact that the XM8 and M4 are pretty much on par in terms of effectiveness and that isn't going to justify buying a million new carbines that do the M4's job no better than the M4 already does. Besides, try attaching a vertical forgrip, ACOG, PEQ-15, and Surefire light to an XM8. You ''can't'', because none of those mods (mods which won't be going away anytime soon) are backwards compatible with PCAP and the gun's existing RDS is permanently attached. As a result, you have to buy from HK, in addition to the carbines themselves, all new accessories amounting to even more millions of dollars. People claim Colt has a stranglehold on the US military, adopting the XM8 would have been HK wrapping a noose around the US military's neck and putting their hand on the lever which opens the trapdoor beneath its feet. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:50, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

:Is the US Army collaborating so much with H&K really such a bad thing? Didn't the British government collaborate with them a lot way back in the 80s when the time came to refit their SA80 rifles? They also bought a controlling share during those days, too, so the British government called the shots then, not H&K. Nothing bad happened there with that close collaboration then. What problems do you foresee with a similar collaboration between the USA and H&K?

:I also remember two of the major "user feedback" points of the M4 Carbine were that they wanted a lighter and more reliable weapon. The XM8 delivered on both. The accessory problems you mentioned would not have been difficult to overcome. The PCAP system was supposedly developed because it kept the "zero" of accessories more securely (not really an issue with foregrips, but definitely an issue with laser pointers, grenade launchers, and scopes/non-iron sights), but the earlier XM8 prototypes did have conventional rail systems which could be reverted to if necessary. Subcontracting another company to build PCAP-compatible accessories could be another option. Further, changing the chambering to 6.8x43mm or the like shouldn't be too much of a problem (if it's done before mass production is approved) if a caliber change is deemed to be necessary. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 19:43, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

::I don't see how changing the caliber to 6.8 would be any improvement either when you consider that a number of piston ARs in that caliber are readily available already. In addition, FN has a forthcoming 6.8mm caliber conversion for the SCAR system and the ACR is easily converted to 6.8mm at the user level. All three platforms are pretty much on par with the XM8 in terms of effectiveness ''and'' are compatible with currently fielded accessories (why buy millions of new accessories when the currently fielded ones work just fine?). The weight decrease is negligible at best with the current weight of the carbine variant at 6.4 lbs [http://www.hksystems.com.au/xm8.htm] compared to 6.9 lbs for most loaded AR-type carbines. True, the ACR and SCAR-L are a bit heavier at around 7 lbs or so each, but both offer much more adaptability OTS than the XM8. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem as well with the XM8 is that the US Marine Corp has a serious problem about changing their rifles. If the XM8 was adopted by the Army, it would have taken a while before the Marines would abandon their M16s and M4s. They always seem to be the last guys to change their current weapons for the new thing. Also the SCAR's been having problems as well getting adopted [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:The Marines don't have the budget to blow on weapons programs left and right like the Army does, though. When the Corps adopts a new piece of kit, they need to get as much use out of it as possible because they don't have the cash to replace it right away should it fail. Think of how many combined billions of dollars the US Army sank into the Advanced Combat Rifle, XM29, XM8, XM307, and XM312 programs only for none to be adopted, then consider that now they're (A) set on upgrading all their M4s and (B) simultaneously running a competition for a completely new carbine to supersede the M4. Add to that the LSAT program and the XM25 airburst grenade launcher (the only so-far salvageable part of the OICW program). And that's just in the ''small arms'' category alone. Running development programs all willy-nilly like that would ''bankrupt'' the USMC. But I wouldn't say the Marines are ''always'' last to adopt the new stuff. The M16A2 and A4 were born within the USMC, after all. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 07:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
:::From what i heard from a friend of mine, and im not sure if this is true or not, and someone might have already said this, but the XM8 was too expensive too manufacture, which confuses me because i thought the rifle was made out of plastic. Can someone confirm that or is my friend full of s**t?--[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]
::::Just because a rifle is made from composite that doesn't by any means make it cheaper to manufacture. The bare rifle itself was more expensive than an M4, I believe in the order of twice the price. It was also actually heavier than the M4 despite having a 2" shorter barrel. However, the sighting unit included a sight, lasers and illuminators so with this fitted, an M4 with equivalent capability would have been heavier and more expensive. I think most of this has been said above, but have heard there were several reasons why it was dropped, including the cost issue, overheating problems in desert testing, lack of significant improvement over current weapons, non STANAG magazine, abandonment of MIL-STD-1913 rails and replacement with PCAP (Picatinny Combat Attachment Points) system and political problems with using a non American made weapon (mostly stirred up by Colt I believe). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 21:32, 3 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::"Political problems with using a non American made weapon" Most of the weapon used in the US Military are made by *cough* FN *cough*, even M16s nowadays are made by FN! - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:03, 4 November 2011 (CDT)
::::::Most weapons are still made by Colt, as all M4s so far have been Colt made and not all M16s are made by FN, and I believe a lot more M4s are around than M16s these days (at least from what I've seen). Regardless, there is a big difference between a US designed weapon having some of the manufacturing contracted out to someone else than adopting a foreign designed weapon, at least politically speaking. Would be taken by some as admitting that the Germans are better at designing guns than the Americans. Don't think this whole facet was the main reason the XM8 went away (got the impression from what I've read that it was an issue created by Colt to try and play the patriotic card), but certainly didn't help its chances. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:24, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::::I'm not arguing with you. :) I think H&K would have been more successful if they just entered they're regular G36, I think it would cost atleast as much as an FN SCAR if not less. What do you know/think? I thought I remember seeing a source saying the G36V cost $950~1000 USD. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:45, 5 November 2011 (CDT)

::::::::But the FN SCAR and XM8 were developed in completely different programs. The XM8 was supposed to be light, with a target weight around 4 lbs. They were never able to get it that light and when they got close the weapon developed problems overheating and even melting, which is why the XM8 had all the overheating problems while the G36 did not. The SCAR, on the other hand, was developed under the idea of having one weapon system with multiple calibers to allow solders to preform multiple different rolls while only needing to be familiar with one weapon platform. The individual weapon cost between the SCAR, XM8, and HK416 vs the M4 are not significant, however there are lots of surplus M4 parts that the army has accumulated over the years so maintenance costs on the M4 would be less than what it would be for a new gun, which is something that has to be considered when changing out a weapon system on such a large scale as the US Army or Marines.[[User:Dover500|Dover500]] 17:53, 5 November 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::Good God, the way this is going America will still have M16s and M4s in 2500 AD. M16A20 and M4A15 anyone? :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]]

== Hopefully no more seeing these in movies ==

I really hope a lot of action movies and even games of the future to come would stop using the XM8 to be the image of "the rifle of the future" look. Even I made the naive mistake once and thought this rifle was cool, I hope that new comers into the world of firearms will wise up quick and see just because it looks kinda cool and spacy...doesn't mean it's NOT a complete piece of crap. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

How is the XM8 a piece of crap? Nobody seems to think there's an middleground with the XM8. Either you love it or you think it's a disgrace not worthy to even be thought of. Why do you hate it so much?

Probably just another M16/4-Series Fanboy whose jaw would drop to the ground in awe, when the XM8 blows the M4 to pieces in reliability-tests.
:Till the XM8 starts melting.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

why is there a wierd cartoonish/not-real picture of the XM8 on some pages.itlooks like it has been digitally made ona computer [[user:smish34|smish34]]
:Probably because a "weird cartoonish/not-real" picture is easier to make than a picture of one of the couple hundred prototypes in existence is to get. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
::I believe those pictures are from the official Army press releases. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XM8-Poster.jpg] --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 01:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I still think that the XM8 will still apear in film, and game based couple years in to the future.

That's because when designers look to a "future" gun, instead of being original and making one up, they pick a gun that is not on any production scale at all. They might as well have the G11 star in games and future war movies again because it was so future like when that thing came out [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
:Do me a favor and look at the Ghost Recon: Future Soldier talk page. ''Those'' monstrosities are what results when game designers try to be original and make a gun up. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:XM8 might be better if it wasn't all fucking plastic,pardon my language. In fact,a lot of weapons would be better,but wouldn't be used in mass production if you know,more steel work would be involved. Of coures,there are holes in the design for steel worked weapons as well as there are synthetic weapons and weapon parts. But this is an opinion from someone who thought there was no difference between clip and magazine,which there are several.--[[Special:Contributions/50.42.75.36|50.42.75.36]] 02:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
::Yeah for one thing they are not the same thing. Anyway, the fact that the XM8 is made of "plastic" as you call it isn't the problem. Many successful rifles are made of "plastic". The AUG, the G36, the F2000, the Tavor, the QBZ series. There is nothing wrong with the polymer material. It can be as strong as steel and make the weapon lighter and that is what the infantry needs. Lighter weapon means lighter the load and more ammo they can carry into battle without the fatigue. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
:::Well,not to be Randy P. Goatboy,but why the heck did SCAR succeed the XM8? Was it more...adaptable? With the SCAR-H,SCAR-L,the subtypes of those...was that the reason it won? So to speak?--[[User:Pump Shotty Justice|Pump_Shotty_Justice]]
::::A modified XM8 (how it differed from the original I have no idea) did compete in the SCAR program, but the FN beat it out. I'm unsure of any specifics, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:28, 7 November 2011 (CST)
:::::I am going purely by memory so might be totally wrong, but I think the original competition phase of the SCAR was in 2004 and known as SOFCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat (or might be Capable?) Assault Rifle), and the contestants were the Robinson Arms XCR, FN SCAR and the XM8. Remember reading that the XM8 was an improved version, but I believe it was just the late model of the XM8 which is the black/grey one on the main page as opposed to the tan. Only differences (there are supposed to be a dozen or so) I notice are the more attachment points, birdcage flash hider and the folding sights built into the carry handle. Assume the main reason it failed in that there was no caliber modularity which was one of the things SOCOM were looking for. This is the same version of the rifle that was used in the 2007 extreme dust testing the army did (which the XM8 won) which was a four way comparison between the M4, HK416, FN SCAR and the XM8 ([http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/military_rifle/index.html Video here]). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:42, 7 November 2011 (CST)

== XM8 Rail Model ==
I've heard that there were actually some XM8 prototypes with rail sets, but I have personally never seen one. Does anyone have pics of these? Would they be a good addition to the page?