Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games - User contributions [en]

Talk:Remington Model 870

2014-02-07T14:29:46Z

Ranger01: /* Custom 870 */

==Additional Images==
===Screen Used===
[[Image:Custom870wMossbergGhostRing.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Custom Remington 870 combat shotgun with Mossberg Ghost Ring sights - this shotgun was built to resemble the shotgun used by [[Ving Rhames]] in [[Dawn of the Dead (2004)]].]]
[[Image:Remingt870WitProt Eli.jpg‎ |thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 "Witness Protection" Short Shotgun - .12 gauge. This is the actual screen gun used by [[Denzel Washington]] in [[The Book of Eli]].]]
[[Image:Natural Born Killers Shotgun.jpg|450px|thumb|none|A prop photo of the Hero Customized Remington 870 used in ''[[Natural Born Killers]]''. Note it's misidentified as a Winchester Model 12.]]
[[File:SBS4E5REM 870.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington 870 with Aimtec Warhammer rail system, FAB Defense stock and pump, MAGPUL Back-Up Sights, and 1st generation Bushnell Holosight - 12 gauge. This is the screen-used gun from ''[[Strike Back - Season 4]]'']]

===Additional Variants===
[[Image:REMINGTON 870 EXPRESS TACTICAL PISTOL GRIP.jpg|thumb|none|600px|REMINGTON 870 Express with Tactical Pistol Grip - .12 gauge]]
[[Image:Black870folder.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with Folding Stock - .12 gauge]]
[[File:Rem870short.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Field 12 Gauge with sawed-off stock and barrel.]]
[[Image:Remington870Pstlgrip.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Short-barreled Remington 870 with Pachmayr "Vindicator Grip" - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870rail.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Shorted Remington 870 with rails - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Rem870entry.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Entry Gun - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 Defender.JPG|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a pistol grip and a vertical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Aow9723.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a sawed-off barrel and stock - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:870 shorty.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a Express tactical pistol grip and vertical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington_870MCS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870mcs 14.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS Entry version - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 MCS MK.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS Masterkey - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870w618Surefire.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Remington870NewTacticalModel.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 New Police tactical Model with Magpul CTR telescoping stock - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Model870P MAXlg.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police with a Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Model870P 14inlg.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police "Entry Gun" with a Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 Knoxx Tactical A.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Express Tactical with KNOXX SpecOps NRS stock - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870M4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 fitted with a pistol grip, Surefire light, and M4-type stock]]
[[Image:P1010021.JPG|thumb|none|601px|Remington 870 shotgun with the same full-length Picatinny Rail system, but without the foregrip like a [[Serbu Super Shorty 9]] - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:Wilson 870.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Wilson Customized Remington 870 shotgun with synthetic furniture, sling, weaponlight, rifle sights and a laser sight - 12 gauge]]
[[File:Remington 870 Police.jpg|thumb|none|551px|Remington 870 Police with extended magazine tube and Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870extmag.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with a 20" barrel, extended magazine tube, wood furniture and blued finish - 12 gauge (credit to [[User:Predator20|Predator 20]])]]
[[File:Rem870PoliceBlack.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with black furniture and extended magazine tube - 12 gauge (credit to [[User:Predator20|Predator 20]])]]
[[Image:4087239650 3fc96e1b79 o.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Express Synthetic with a SpecterGear SOP sling and shell carrier - .12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870shortM4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 shotgun with shortened barrel and M4 stock - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:Rem870 twotone.jpg‎|thumb|600px|none|Remington 870 Two Tone - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington870Heatshield.JPG‎|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remiongton Heatshield.jpg |thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield, Surefire light - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:RemingtonMod.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield, Surefire light - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:870trench.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Trench Shotgun - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:USMC870.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with USMC configuration - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870Express.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington Model 870 Express - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington-870-lefthand.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington Model 870 Express Left-Hand, 28" vent-rib barrel - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:REM870exp_combo.jpeg|600px|thumb|none|Remington 870 Express Combo - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington-870Express-Camo-Trky.jpg|600px|thumb|none|Remington Model 870 Express Turkey Camo]]
[[Image:Remington870PistolGrip-2.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 with a synthetic fore-end and a Tac-Star Tommy Gun pistol grip - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:870-exp-ss-syn-cls-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington Model 870 Express ShurShot Synthetic Cantilever - 12 gauge. Seen in the videogame ''[[Homefront]]'', image from Remington's website.]]
[[Image:Rem870Butler.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 fitted with Butler Creek Tactical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[File:870wngmstr16-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Wingmaster - 12 gauge]]
[[File:870marine mag-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Special Purpose Marine - 12 gauge]]

I'm adding additional variants of whatever type of gun to their talk page, to lessen up clutter and keep images already on file from being uploaded that aren't on the main gun page.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 21:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

== Remington wingmaster ==

Should we have a section for the Remington wingmaster?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 20:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

== Images ==

I'm removing some of the images on this page because it's starting to get ridiculous how users are adding so many images to this page, especially when they are images that don't need to be here, or are very low quality. I'm sorry if I removed anyone's images, but this page is starting to become a cluttered mess, plus if one image was added in the Remington 870 section, it would have went into the Slug Gun section.--[[User:Alienqueen11|Alienqueen11]] 18:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Please stop putting the different tipes of guns on the main page.--[[User:Dillinger|Dillinger]] 20:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

== Can a Remington 870 be modified to accept a detachable box magazine? ==

I saw an airsoft gun the other day modeled after a Remington 870 with a receiver cover with picatinny rails, an M4 pistol grip, a telescoping stock, and a detatchable box magazine. Now I know it probably had the magazine just because it would work a lot better for an airsoft gun, but it got me thinking, can an 870 be adjusted to accept a box magazine?
:It could be based on the Valtro shotgun (which kind of looks like a Remington 870) or it might be able to be modified that way. For instance, there are pictures showing the Mossberg 500 can accept mags, so maybe it can. Not sure:
http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/sidewinder.jpg

Nah I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Valtro. Thanks for the Mossberg pic. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 16:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
:Could the weapon you are looking for be a pump action HAWK Tactical shotgun?[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 04:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Those airsoft ones only have the box magazines as the little plastic pellets don't work well in shells, and I'd expect for something reusable, that a non ejecting, higher capacity magazine would be more efficient than having to catch shells and re load them. As for the real one, I have never seen one. Maybe some vague conversion, but I have only seen 870's tube fed.--Fnlover 00:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
::Airsoft shotgun shells are re-usable, most of them aren't shell ejecting either. The spring shotgun shells are fantastic, you get 10 shots out of them as they fire 3 shots at the same time on the tri-shot versions. Having a magazine loaded one is just to make it cheaper to manufacture. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 02:35, 12 January 2012 (CST)
Well the Chinese make a Remington 870 Knockoff that does take fiver round magazines. They can't be imported to the US but they are available in Canada with barrel lenghts between 12.5 and 18.5 inches. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] ([[User talk:Rockwolf66|talk]]) 17:32, 18 November 2012 (EST)

== Custom 870 ==

[[Image:Vlcsnap-342888.jpg|thumb|none|500px|From [[Training Day]]]]
[[Image:MarineRem870-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|From [[The Marine]]]]

Is there still no ID Image of this configuration? The 870 looks sweet with the heat shield and bayonet mount! I also realised this gun has no stock whereas Terminator 3 does.- [[Special:Contributions/89.241.9.74|89.241.9.74]]
:We have one image with the heat shield and another with the bayonet mount. So I used those two images. One with a full stock was also used in [[Natural Born Killers]]. Not that I would ever run around with a bayonet on mine, I would love to configure one of my 870's with the heat shield and bayonet mount. It looks so tough and rugged. But I think those bayonet mounts are hard to find.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 17:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no 'off the shelf' configuration for this item. The heat-shield would come and go, but the bayonet lug was standard on a lot of old Army/Navy 870's. If you search 'Navy 870 bayonet lug', you will probably find a little info. You can find them for sale on some of the larger 'gun exchange' site, but they're up around $250 now. A shame. --[[User:Gwhysow|Gwhysow]] 22:31, 11 January 2012 (CST)

It's either a mid 80's refit of a USMC gun that's had the Air Force heat shield added on, or a gun modified with the Air Force/ USMC Refit/ Police bayonet mount/ barrel band and a heat shield. In the mid '80s refit of the Mk 1s the DoD replaced the 21" Imp Cyl Rifle sighted barrel with a non iron sight barrel, and replaced the blade sight bayonet mount/ barrel band with a bead sight model. The gun can be differentiated from the Air Force issued models due to it having a 21" Marine Corps barrel vs the 20" barrel that the Air Force specified (20" barrels are flush with the front of the mount.--[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] ([[User talk:Ranger01|talk]])

== Witness Protection? ==

Why is the sawn-off version of the 870 called that?

First off sign your posts.

The model with the "dogbone" pistol grip and the 12 inch barrel was origionally created by Wilson Arms for the US Marshals service for their witness protection teams. Since then Remington shotguns in that configuration have been called "Witness protection" models. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] ([[User talk:Rockwolf66|talk]]) 17:29, 18 November 2012 (EST)

== Magazine Tubes ==
Is there a difference between an "extended" magazine tube and a "high capacity" magazine tube, or are they different terms for the same feature? - [[User: 2wingo]]
:I believe they're the same thing. Normal capacity on an 870 is 4+1. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 01:17, 15 December 2012 (EST)
::And what is the capacity for the extended magazine? Is it 7+1 or 8+1? (or both are possible?) --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 04:35, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

== Remington 870 MCS ==
The original Remington 870 was produced in 1951, but in what year was the MCS variant produced? --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 04:35, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

1969 production, general refits around the mid '80s (the DoD ordered new bayo mounts around this time)for the Mk1. The MCS kit was introduced around 2004 IIRC.--[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] ([[User talk:Ranger01|talk]])

Talk:Remington Model 870

2014-02-07T14:21:18Z

Ranger01: /* Remington 870 MCS */

==Additional Images==
===Screen Used===
[[Image:Custom870wMossbergGhostRing.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Custom Remington 870 combat shotgun with Mossberg Ghost Ring sights - this shotgun was built to resemble the shotgun used by [[Ving Rhames]] in [[Dawn of the Dead (2004)]].]]
[[Image:Remingt870WitProt Eli.jpg‎ |thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 "Witness Protection" Short Shotgun - .12 gauge. This is the actual screen gun used by [[Denzel Washington]] in [[The Book of Eli]].]]
[[Image:Natural Born Killers Shotgun.jpg|450px|thumb|none|A prop photo of the Hero Customized Remington 870 used in ''[[Natural Born Killers]]''. Note it's misidentified as a Winchester Model 12.]]
[[File:SBS4E5REM 870.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington 870 with Aimtec Warhammer rail system, FAB Defense stock and pump, MAGPUL Back-Up Sights, and 1st generation Bushnell Holosight - 12 gauge. This is the screen-used gun from ''[[Strike Back - Season 4]]'']]

===Additional Variants===
[[Image:REMINGTON 870 EXPRESS TACTICAL PISTOL GRIP.jpg|thumb|none|600px|REMINGTON 870 Express with Tactical Pistol Grip - .12 gauge]]
[[Image:Black870folder.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with Folding Stock - .12 gauge]]
[[File:Rem870short.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Field 12 Gauge with sawed-off stock and barrel.]]
[[Image:Remington870Pstlgrip.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Short-barreled Remington 870 with Pachmayr "Vindicator Grip" - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870rail.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Shorted Remington 870 with rails - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Rem870entry.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Entry Gun - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 Defender.JPG|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a pistol grip and a vertical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Aow9723.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a sawed-off barrel and stock - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:870 shorty.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a Express tactical pistol grip and vertical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington_870MCS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870mcs 14.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS Entry version - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 MCS MK.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS Masterkey - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870w618Surefire.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Remington870NewTacticalModel.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 New Police tactical Model with Magpul CTR telescoping stock - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Model870P MAXlg.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police with a Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Model870P 14inlg.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police "Entry Gun" with a Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 Knoxx Tactical A.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Express Tactical with KNOXX SpecOps NRS stock - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870M4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 fitted with a pistol grip, Surefire light, and M4-type stock]]
[[Image:P1010021.JPG|thumb|none|601px|Remington 870 shotgun with the same full-length Picatinny Rail system, but without the foregrip like a [[Serbu Super Shorty 9]] - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:Wilson 870.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Wilson Customized Remington 870 shotgun with synthetic furniture, sling, weaponlight, rifle sights and a laser sight - 12 gauge]]
[[File:Remington 870 Police.jpg|thumb|none|551px|Remington 870 Police with extended magazine tube and Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870extmag.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with a 20" barrel, extended magazine tube, wood furniture and blued finish - 12 gauge (credit to [[User:Predator20|Predator 20]])]]
[[File:Rem870PoliceBlack.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with black furniture and extended magazine tube - 12 gauge (credit to [[User:Predator20|Predator 20]])]]
[[Image:4087239650 3fc96e1b79 o.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Express Synthetic with a SpecterGear SOP sling and shell carrier - .12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870shortM4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 shotgun with shortened barrel and M4 stock - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:Rem870 twotone.jpg‎|thumb|600px|none|Remington 870 Two Tone - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington870Heatshield.JPG‎|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remiongton Heatshield.jpg |thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield, Surefire light - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:RemingtonMod.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield, Surefire light - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:870trench.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Trench Shotgun - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:USMC870.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with USMC configuration - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870Express.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington Model 870 Express - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington-870-lefthand.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington Model 870 Express Left-Hand, 28" vent-rib barrel - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:REM870exp_combo.jpeg|600px|thumb|none|Remington 870 Express Combo - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington-870Express-Camo-Trky.jpg|600px|thumb|none|Remington Model 870 Express Turkey Camo]]
[[Image:Remington870PistolGrip-2.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 with a synthetic fore-end and a Tac-Star Tommy Gun pistol grip - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:870-exp-ss-syn-cls-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington Model 870 Express ShurShot Synthetic Cantilever - 12 gauge. Seen in the videogame ''[[Homefront]]'', image from Remington's website.]]
[[Image:Rem870Butler.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 fitted with Butler Creek Tactical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[File:870wngmstr16-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Wingmaster - 12 gauge]]
[[File:870marine mag-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Special Purpose Marine - 12 gauge]]

I'm adding additional variants of whatever type of gun to their talk page, to lessen up clutter and keep images already on file from being uploaded that aren't on the main gun page.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 21:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

== Remington wingmaster ==

Should we have a section for the Remington wingmaster?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 20:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

== Images ==

I'm removing some of the images on this page because it's starting to get ridiculous how users are adding so many images to this page, especially when they are images that don't need to be here, or are very low quality. I'm sorry if I removed anyone's images, but this page is starting to become a cluttered mess, plus if one image was added in the Remington 870 section, it would have went into the Slug Gun section.--[[User:Alienqueen11|Alienqueen11]] 18:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Please stop putting the different tipes of guns on the main page.--[[User:Dillinger|Dillinger]] 20:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

== Can a Remington 870 be modified to accept a detachable box magazine? ==

I saw an airsoft gun the other day modeled after a Remington 870 with a receiver cover with picatinny rails, an M4 pistol grip, a telescoping stock, and a detatchable box magazine. Now I know it probably had the magazine just because it would work a lot better for an airsoft gun, but it got me thinking, can an 870 be adjusted to accept a box magazine?
:It could be based on the Valtro shotgun (which kind of looks like a Remington 870) or it might be able to be modified that way. For instance, there are pictures showing the Mossberg 500 can accept mags, so maybe it can. Not sure:
http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/sidewinder.jpg

Nah I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Valtro. Thanks for the Mossberg pic. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 16:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
:Could the weapon you are looking for be a pump action HAWK Tactical shotgun?[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 04:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Those airsoft ones only have the box magazines as the little plastic pellets don't work well in shells, and I'd expect for something reusable, that a non ejecting, higher capacity magazine would be more efficient than having to catch shells and re load them. As for the real one, I have never seen one. Maybe some vague conversion, but I have only seen 870's tube fed.--Fnlover 00:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
::Airsoft shotgun shells are re-usable, most of them aren't shell ejecting either. The spring shotgun shells are fantastic, you get 10 shots out of them as they fire 3 shots at the same time on the tri-shot versions. Having a magazine loaded one is just to make it cheaper to manufacture. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 02:35, 12 January 2012 (CST)
Well the Chinese make a Remington 870 Knockoff that does take fiver round magazines. They can't be imported to the US but they are available in Canada with barrel lenghts between 12.5 and 18.5 inches. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] ([[User talk:Rockwolf66|talk]]) 17:32, 18 November 2012 (EST)

== Custom 870 ==

[[Image:Vlcsnap-342888.jpg|thumb|none|500px|From [[Training Day]]]]
[[Image:MarineRem870-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|From [[The Marine]]]]

Is there still no ID Image of this configuration? The 870 looks sweet with the heat shield and bayonet mount! I also realised this gun has no stock whereas Terminator 3 does.- [[Special:Contributions/89.241.9.74|89.241.9.74]]
:We have one image with the heat shield and another with the bayonet mount. So I used those two images. One with a full stock was also used in [[Natural Born Killers]]. Not that I would ever run around with a bayonet on mine, I would love to configure one of my 870's with the heat shield and bayonet mount. It looks so tough and rugged. But I think those bayonet mounts are hard to find.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 17:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no 'off the shelf' configuration for this item. The heat-shield would come and go, but the bayonet lug was standard on a lot of old Army/Navy 870's. If you search 'Navy 870 bayonet lug', you will probably find a little info. You can find them for sale on some of the larger 'gun exchange' site, but they're up around $250 now. A shame. --[[User:Gwhysow|Gwhysow]] 22:31, 11 January 2012 (CST)

== Witness Protection? ==

Why is the sawn-off version of the 870 called that?

First off sign your posts.

The model with the "dogbone" pistol grip and the 12 inch barrel was origionally created by Wilson Arms for the US Marshals service for their witness protection teams. Since then Remington shotguns in that configuration have been called "Witness protection" models. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] ([[User talk:Rockwolf66|talk]]) 17:29, 18 November 2012 (EST)

== Magazine Tubes ==
Is there a difference between an "extended" magazine tube and a "high capacity" magazine tube, or are they different terms for the same feature? - [[User: 2wingo]]
:I believe they're the same thing. Normal capacity on an 870 is 4+1. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 01:17, 15 December 2012 (EST)
::And what is the capacity for the extended magazine? Is it 7+1 or 8+1? (or both are possible?) --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 04:35, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

== Remington 870 MCS ==
The original Remington 870 was produced in 1951, but in what year was the MCS variant produced? --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 04:35, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

1969 production, general refits around the mid '80s (the DoD ordered new bayo mounts around this time)for the Mk1. The MCS kit was introduced around 2004 IIRC.--[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] ([[User talk:Ranger01|talk]])

Talk:Remington Model 870

2014-02-07T14:19:42Z

Ranger01: /* Remington 870 MCS */

==Additional Images==
===Screen Used===
[[Image:Custom870wMossbergGhostRing.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Custom Remington 870 combat shotgun with Mossberg Ghost Ring sights - this shotgun was built to resemble the shotgun used by [[Ving Rhames]] in [[Dawn of the Dead (2004)]].]]
[[Image:Remingt870WitProt Eli.jpg‎ |thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 "Witness Protection" Short Shotgun - .12 gauge. This is the actual screen gun used by [[Denzel Washington]] in [[The Book of Eli]].]]
[[Image:Natural Born Killers Shotgun.jpg|450px|thumb|none|A prop photo of the Hero Customized Remington 870 used in ''[[Natural Born Killers]]''. Note it's misidentified as a Winchester Model 12.]]
[[File:SBS4E5REM 870.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington 870 with Aimtec Warhammer rail system, FAB Defense stock and pump, MAGPUL Back-Up Sights, and 1st generation Bushnell Holosight - 12 gauge. This is the screen-used gun from ''[[Strike Back - Season 4]]'']]

===Additional Variants===
[[Image:REMINGTON 870 EXPRESS TACTICAL PISTOL GRIP.jpg|thumb|none|600px|REMINGTON 870 Express with Tactical Pistol Grip - .12 gauge]]
[[Image:Black870folder.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with Folding Stock - .12 gauge]]
[[File:Rem870short.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Field 12 Gauge with sawed-off stock and barrel.]]
[[Image:Remington870Pstlgrip.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Short-barreled Remington 870 with Pachmayr "Vindicator Grip" - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870rail.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Shorted Remington 870 with rails - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Rem870entry.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Entry Gun - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 Defender.JPG|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a pistol grip and a vertical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Aow9723.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a sawed-off barrel and stock - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:870 shorty.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a Express tactical pistol grip and vertical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington_870MCS.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870mcs 14.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS Entry version - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 MCS MK.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 MCS Masterkey - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870w618Surefire.jpg‎|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Remington870NewTacticalModel.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 New Police tactical Model with Magpul CTR telescoping stock - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Model870P MAXlg.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police with a Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge.]]
[[Image:Model870P 14inlg.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police "Entry Gun" with a Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remington 870 Knoxx Tactical A.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Express Tactical with KNOXX SpecOps NRS stock - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870M4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 fitted with a pistol grip, Surefire light, and M4-type stock]]
[[Image:P1010021.JPG|thumb|none|601px|Remington 870 shotgun with the same full-length Picatinny Rail system, but without the foregrip like a [[Serbu Super Shorty 9]] - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:Wilson 870.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Wilson Customized Remington 870 shotgun with synthetic furniture, sling, weaponlight, rifle sights and a laser sight - 12 gauge]]
[[File:Remington 870 Police.jpg|thumb|none|551px|Remington 870 Police with extended magazine tube and Surefire dedicated forend weaponlight - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870extmag.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with a 20" barrel, extended magazine tube, wood furniture and blued finish - 12 gauge (credit to [[User:Predator20|Predator 20]])]]
[[File:Rem870PoliceBlack.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with black furniture and extended magazine tube - 12 gauge (credit to [[User:Predator20|Predator 20]])]]
[[Image:4087239650 3fc96e1b79 o.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Express Synthetic with a SpecterGear SOP sling and shell carrier - .12 gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870shortM4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 shotgun with shortened barrel and M4 stock - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:Rem870 twotone.jpg‎|thumb|600px|none|Remington 870 Two Tone - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington870Heatshield.JPG‎|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:Remiongton Heatshield.jpg |thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield, Surefire light - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:RemingtonMod.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with a heatshield, Surefire light - 12 gauge]]
[[Image:870trench.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 Trench Shotgun - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:USMC870.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Remington 870 with USMC configuration - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Rem870Express.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington Model 870 Express - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington-870-lefthand.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Remington Model 870 Express Left-Hand, 28" vent-rib barrel - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:REM870exp_combo.jpeg|600px|thumb|none|Remington 870 Express Combo - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:Remington-870Express-Camo-Trky.jpg|600px|thumb|none|Remington Model 870 Express Turkey Camo]]
[[Image:Remington870PistolGrip-2.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 with a synthetic fore-end and a Tac-Star Tommy Gun pistol grip - 12 Gauge.]]
[[Image:870-exp-ss-syn-cls-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington Model 870 Express ShurShot Synthetic Cantilever - 12 gauge. Seen in the videogame ''[[Homefront]]'', image from Remington's website.]]
[[Image:Rem870Butler.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 fitted with Butler Creek Tactical foregrip - 12 gauge]]
[[File:870wngmstr16-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Wingmaster - 12 gauge]]
[[File:870marine mag-prod.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Special Purpose Marine - 12 gauge]]

I'm adding additional variants of whatever type of gun to their talk page, to lessen up clutter and keep images already on file from being uploaded that aren't on the main gun page.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 21:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

== Remington wingmaster ==

Should we have a section for the Remington wingmaster?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 20:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

== Images ==

I'm removing some of the images on this page because it's starting to get ridiculous how users are adding so many images to this page, especially when they are images that don't need to be here, or are very low quality. I'm sorry if I removed anyone's images, but this page is starting to become a cluttered mess, plus if one image was added in the Remington 870 section, it would have went into the Slug Gun section.--[[User:Alienqueen11|Alienqueen11]] 18:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Please stop putting the different tipes of guns on the main page.--[[User:Dillinger|Dillinger]] 20:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

== Can a Remington 870 be modified to accept a detachable box magazine? ==

I saw an airsoft gun the other day modeled after a Remington 870 with a receiver cover with picatinny rails, an M4 pistol grip, a telescoping stock, and a detatchable box magazine. Now I know it probably had the magazine just because it would work a lot better for an airsoft gun, but it got me thinking, can an 870 be adjusted to accept a box magazine?
:It could be based on the Valtro shotgun (which kind of looks like a Remington 870) or it might be able to be modified that way. For instance, there are pictures showing the Mossberg 500 can accept mags, so maybe it can. Not sure:
http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/sidewinder.jpg

Nah I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Valtro. Thanks for the Mossberg pic. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 16:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
:Could the weapon you are looking for be a pump action HAWK Tactical shotgun?[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 04:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Those airsoft ones only have the box magazines as the little plastic pellets don't work well in shells, and I'd expect for something reusable, that a non ejecting, higher capacity magazine would be more efficient than having to catch shells and re load them. As for the real one, I have never seen one. Maybe some vague conversion, but I have only seen 870's tube fed.--Fnlover 00:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
::Airsoft shotgun shells are re-usable, most of them aren't shell ejecting either. The spring shotgun shells are fantastic, you get 10 shots out of them as they fire 3 shots at the same time on the tri-shot versions. Having a magazine loaded one is just to make it cheaper to manufacture. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 02:35, 12 January 2012 (CST)
Well the Chinese make a Remington 870 Knockoff that does take fiver round magazines. They can't be imported to the US but they are available in Canada with barrel lenghts between 12.5 and 18.5 inches. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] ([[User talk:Rockwolf66|talk]]) 17:32, 18 November 2012 (EST)

== Custom 870 ==

[[Image:Vlcsnap-342888.jpg|thumb|none|500px|From [[Training Day]]]]
[[Image:MarineRem870-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|From [[The Marine]]]]

Is there still no ID Image of this configuration? The 870 looks sweet with the heat shield and bayonet mount! I also realised this gun has no stock whereas Terminator 3 does.- [[Special:Contributions/89.241.9.74|89.241.9.74]]
:We have one image with the heat shield and another with the bayonet mount. So I used those two images. One with a full stock was also used in [[Natural Born Killers]]. Not that I would ever run around with a bayonet on mine, I would love to configure one of my 870's with the heat shield and bayonet mount. It looks so tough and rugged. But I think those bayonet mounts are hard to find.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 17:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no 'off the shelf' configuration for this item. The heat-shield would come and go, but the bayonet lug was standard on a lot of old Army/Navy 870's. If you search 'Navy 870 bayonet lug', you will probably find a little info. You can find them for sale on some of the larger 'gun exchange' site, but they're up around $250 now. A shame. --[[User:Gwhysow|Gwhysow]] 22:31, 11 January 2012 (CST)

== Witness Protection? ==

Why is the sawn-off version of the 870 called that?

First off sign your posts.

The model with the "dogbone" pistol grip and the 12 inch barrel was origionally created by Wilson Arms for the US Marshals service for their witness protection teams. Since then Remington shotguns in that configuration have been called "Witness protection" models. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] ([[User talk:Rockwolf66|talk]]) 17:29, 18 November 2012 (EST)

== Magazine Tubes ==
Is there a difference between an "extended" magazine tube and a "high capacity" magazine tube, or are they different terms for the same feature? - [[User: 2wingo]]
:I believe they're the same thing. Normal capacity on an 870 is 4+1. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] ([[User talk:Funkychinaman|talk]]) 01:17, 15 December 2012 (EST)
::And what is the capacity for the extended magazine? Is it 7+1 or 8+1? (or both are possible?) --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 04:35, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

== Remington 870 MCS ==
The original Remington 870 was produced in 1951, but in what year was the MCS variant produced? --[[User:Ultimate94ninja|Ultimate94ninja]] ([[User talk:Ultimate94ninja|talk]]) 04:35, 31 August 2013 (EDT)

1969 production, general refits around the mid '80s (the DoD ordered new bayo mounts around this time)--[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] ([[User talk:Ranger01|talk]])

Talk:Glock pistol series

2013-01-17T02:18:03Z

Ranger01: /* Glock 29 hard to shoot? */

2 Glocks (.45?) play prominet roles in the movie "Fracture" starring Anthony Hopkins. Don't know the model so I didn't edit the main page ([[Special:Contributions/80.121.38.199|80.121.38.199]] 18:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC))

__TOC__ 

==Other Glock Variations==
===Screen-Used===
[[Image:IMFDB P00261 Sopranos Tony Soprano Glock 19.jpg|thumb|none|350px|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen used Glock 19 - 9x19mm. This blank firing weapon is verified as screen used by actor [[James Gandolfini]] in '''[[The Sopranos]]'''. More detailed images and purchasing information on this item can be found at [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet]; see [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=6ef04a13fbe759cbdcbdc6bc4c4b809f&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=P00261&Store_Code=TGC&search=Sopranos+Glock&offset=0&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high= here].]]
[[Image:P00650 Glock Full Left.jpg|thumb|350px|none|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen used Glock 19 - 9x19mm. This non-firing prop weapon is verified as screen used from the film '''[[The Other Guys]]''', and was carried by [[Will Ferrell]] in the film. The gun is accompanied by the Galco belt holster also used in numerous scenes throughout the film.]]
[[Image:P00613.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Screen used Glock 19 - 9x19mm. This blank firing weapon is verified as screen used from the film ''[[Salt]]''. The gun has been modified to fire blank rounds only. This item is currently being sold by [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet]; see [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=6ef04a13fbe759cbdcbdc6bc4c4b809f&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=P00613&Store_Code=TGC&search=Salt&offset=0&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high= this link].]]
[[Image:MattDUlt.jpg|thumb|350px|none|The actual screen-used 3rd generation Glock 17 - 9mm from ''[[The Bourne Ultimatum]]''. This weapon was actually handled and fired by [[Matt Damon]]. Note the damage on the rail.]]

===Other Images===
[[File:Glock17ext.jpg|thumb|none|300px|Glock 17 with 33 round magazine.]]
[[File:Glock17stainless ext.jpg|thumb|none|300px|Glock 17 fitted with stainless slide and 33 round magazine.]]
[[Image:Glock_12892-1-.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 OD Green - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:Evolution.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Suppressed Glock 17 - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:BruniGAP-178mm.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Bruni GAP Glock 17 blank firing stage prop - 8mm blank]]
[[Image:Glock17RAM4.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 RAM - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:CAA.Tactical-RONI-G1.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 - 9x19mm mounted in a CAA Tactical RONI-G1.]]
[[Image:Pistol Austrian Glock 18 with 31 round magazine.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 18C with a 19 and 31 round magazine - 9x19mm]]
[[File:Glock 18C.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 18C (3rd Generation) - 9x19mm. ]]
[[Image:Glock22left.jpg|thumb|350px|none|Glock 22 (2nd Generation) left side - .40 S&W.]]
[[Image:G17-1x400.JPG|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 3rd Generation with SureFire x400 attachment and extended 19-round magazine - 9x19mm. Similar to the gun used by [[Shemar Moore]] in ''[[Criminal Minds]]'']]
[[File:Saliant Arms glock 34.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Salient Arms International Glock 34 - 9x19mm]]
[[File:Gen2 G19C.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Gen2 Glock 19C - 9x19mm]]

== Longslide versions get their own Glock Model Numbers? ==

It seems kind of odd to me as to why variations of Glock pistols available with longer barrels have their own unique model numbers. Many gun websites I've been to don't seem to list such customizations with their own unique model numbers (except maybe in inventory listings or the like), but rather just mention that a particular model of pistol has a longer barrel version available. Is such a practice just for convenient reference? To satisfy customer preferences? Or for some other reason?

By the way, I appreciate all the hard work the people here have done in identifying the various Glock pistols used in the media on this site. I'd find it pretty hard myself, since barring obvious visual differences like how to tell a full-size Glock from a subcompact one apart, I wouldn't be able to tell a G17 from a G22 without seeing the number on the slide in a movie, for instance, since they look substantially the same. Something like trying to tell a G22 from a G20 would also be quite difficult without hearing a character in a movie say its caliber out aloud or seeing the number on the slide, since they are chambered for similarly-sized cartridges. I don't think its entry on the date of this comment is correct--the real-life US Marshals use Glocks chambered for .40 S&W, not 10mm Auto.

About the only exception to the aforementioned practice on Glock's end is the Glock 20, which apparently now has a factory-made longslide version (not the aftermarket ones), but to my knowledge does not have a unique Glock model number. Can someone fill me in on this? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 06:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

== The "Glock invisible"-nonsense ==

Here's what [[Hugh Laurie]] (yes, the "House M. D."-guy) had to say about that in his novel "The gun seller":
"You may have read, at one time or another, some of the nonsense that’s been written about the Glock. The fact that its body is made from a fancy polymer material got one or two journalists very excited a while back about the possibility that the gun might not register on airport X-ray machines - which happens to be so much hooey. The slide, barrel, and a fair portion of its innards are metal, and if that weren’t enough, seventeen rounds of Parabellum ammunition are pretty hard to pass off as lipstick refills. What it does have is a high magazine capacity for a low weight, great accuracy, and virtually unequalled reliability. All of which have made the Glock 17 the choice of housewives everywhere."
Dr. House, I couldn't agree more.
--[[User:Lastgunslinger|Lastgunslinger]] 22:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to admit that my whole perspective of Glock changed when they sued Smith & Wesson over the Sigma. I mean, they make more money from their handguns than any other company in the world and then they go and sue someone. The Glocks design is so simple it resembles every handgun, you might as well sue them all. I see the similarities but they are easily telled apart. Not a cool thing to do Glock, I wish you hadn't stooped down like that.

== 'Resembles Every Handgun' ==

"The Glocks design is so simple it resembles every handgun, you might as well sue them all."

It only resembles every handgun, because almost every brand has a Glock copy now. There wasn't anything like it back in 1982 when it was released. Back then its main competitors were the 1911, S&W 39, Berreta 92 and various wheel guns. Gunner313
Not to mention that S&W didn't just copy the Glock design they cloned it with parts that would fit into a Glock body, with potentially disastrous consequences.

A copy is a near exact of something. The S&W Sigma is the only Glock copy. The rest are just polymer pistols.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 18:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I think he mans that is so genaric and non-descript in apperance that it has gained the status of being the genaric
icon for "pistol" among the populous, especially laymans.
An example being that I asked my parents (who know nothing of guns) to draw their interpretation of a pistol, what they drew was inescapeably a glock-like design.
I think this is because its basically just a rectangular prism with a very simple handguard on it, also its common use by police give it a good possition in the public eye even for those who avoid movies and other media for whatever reason.
Compaired to other self loading pistols the only competition I can see it having is the Beretta 92 serise of guns, also yes I think your point is very valad - other companies making sudo-glocks means that their image is even more common and that the layman will associate the image of a glock less with glocks and more with the term "pistol".
- annon

==Durability==
:Does anyone else find it ironic that Glock's are nigh indestructible but feel really fragile?-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 23:05, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
The Glocks I've fired, for the most part, don't feel extremely fragile. Sure, they don't have that 'all metal heft' that some other handguns have, which makes them lighter, and conceivably more fragile feeling, but none of mine have never felt like they would shatter if I dropped them. I might be misunderstanding what you mean, though. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 21:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
:It just about takes a nuclear blast to destroy one, but at the same time it feels like I could cruch it with my bare hands-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 20:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I've never noticed them feeling fragille, but that could be because I can't get over how friggin' UNCOMFORTABLE they are to hold. I'm not trying bash glocks here, they just don't fit my hand. At all.--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 00:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Catastrophic Failure ==
The Portland, Oregon police department stopped offering the .45 Glock 21 as an option for Officers to carry on duty after two incidents in which the weapons exploded in the hands of the range master during testing. Afterwards reports came in from across the country of similar incidents with the Glock 21. Do all Glocks chambered for powerful cartridges (.45, 10mm) have this problem or is it just the Glock 21? Furthermore do all Glock 21s have this issue or were these just a few rare accidents? I don't particularly like Glock pistols but never considered them dangerous (at least to the user) before hearing about these incidents.
-[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

Hmm. Given the problems that PPB has given Glock in the past (back in the early nineties they commented that "PBB is one of those customers we can't seem to ever make happy") I'm not surprised they blame the company rather than themselves. They also refused to fly to Smyrna to allow Glock to examine one of the pistols; they also refused to allow Glock to remove even one of the allegedly defective pistols for lab tests. The PPB also failed to submit either of the pistols for independent testing, despite stating that it would.

If there was a design flaw it would have shown up '''long''' before now. Glock has ~65% of the US LEA market, mostly in .40 and while the "Short and Weak" isn't nearly as powerful as 10mm Auto, it's generally loaded to higher pressures than .45 ACP

I've used the G20 and G29 (both chambered for the far more powerful 10mm Auto round) for years and haven't had a gun explode or do anything worse that FTE when used with poor ammunition. A few years back we torture tested one with 15,000rds in a single day, it didn't explode.

It's not just .45 and 10mm. I've personally seen a glock 17 explode with factory ammo. Not a pretty sight. --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 00:55, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

== Portland Police and its standards ==

The Portland Police Bureau is a strange department. I've known experienced officers who have tried to get on with the PPB only to be told that they didn't meet Portland's criteria. In a couple cases they were experienced Oregon certified officers from neighboring cities. One of them spent a year in Kosovo with the U.N. civil police training task force. It's a strange city with an odd police administration. I've known a few good cops who work for Portland, but overall I'm glad that I never applied with the PPB.Ultimately I believe the politics of that part of Oregon would have driven me crazy.Very very LEFT WING. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 15:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It's only certain Glock models that do it. I've noticed it a lot on the .40 S&W models such as the 22 or 23. The problem is that in order to increase more reliable feeding as well as to make the gun cycle more reliably, Glocks have more of their chambers cut away, which leaves parts of the case unsupported. They count on the casing to hold in the powder load. I think it happens mostly on the larger cartridges such as 10mm Auto, .40 S&W or .45ACP. Haven't heard of it happening on any of the .45GAP models though. I'm personally not a big fan of Glock pistols. I don't find them very visually appealing and I hate the lack of a manual safety. And I really, really dislike the trigger they make on it. They need to take off the little lever in the trigger, and just go to a solid double action trigger and put a manual safety on it. I'm a 1911 man, but I think there are many other designs that are better than Glock's. For example, Sig Sauer or H&K. Or Springfield's XD series. S&W Sigma. I mean the list goes on and on. I won't buy a Glock for the reasons I mentioned above. Right now, all I own are 1911s and one H&K USP .45.

:I'm a bit confused. You say that you do not like Glock pistols because you find them unattractive and you prefer a manual safety, both of which are valid reasons. But then you claim that designs from SIG Sauer, H&K USP, the Springfield XD, and the S&W Sigma -- all of which, save for a few specialty models, do not have a manual safety -- are superior to the Glock design. That just doesn't make sense. It's perfectly fine to dislike Glock pistols, but to claim that they are inferior to other designs for lacking a manual safety, when those very other designs also lack manual safeties, is rather odd. [[Special:Contributions/68.39.83.179|68.39.83.179]] 22:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

::I've only had hands-on experience with the Glock 21 myself. Me and my sister shot one on my birthday this year, and she had the Glock malfunction on her too, albeit not nearly as severely as the incidents mentioned above. She pulled the trigger and the weapon failed to discharge. When I cleared the chamber, I found that the pin had missed the primer and struck the back of the casing. After that though we didn't have any further problems with the weapon, that being the only round out of 50 we put through the Glock 21 that had a misfire. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 03:19, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure on the Sigma, but the XD has a grip safety, and most sigs have de-cockers. I don't know if those meets your definition of 'manual safety', but they're certainly more than glock has.--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 15:40, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Glock 18==
what would a fully automatic pistol be used for? VIPs protection and CQC
There was a fad for such machine pistols (VP-70 and M-93R for other examples).

But the Personal defense weapon have taken this firearm nitch and more. Rex095

Sort of like lasers when they first came out.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

what do you mean? about the lasers

Lasers were thought to be the end-all substitute for irons yet now they are just seen as a gimmick.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 18:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not really a gimmick today. People still use lasers to aim, distract someone by aiming at their eyes and for small frame guns where the iron sights are bad, like a pocket gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 14:57, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

== Generation 4 Glocks ==

I realized that the page is laking the Gen 4 Glock 17 and Gen 4 Glock 22 --[[User:Yocapo32|Yocapo32]] 17:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Added the Gen 4 model for Glock 22--[[User:SB2296|SB2296]] 17:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

:The picture you posted is not a 4th Generation Glock; it is an RTF (Rough Texture Frame) model, which is not the same thing. The main difference between the 4th Gen Glocks and older models is that they now have removable backstraps. And anyway, we don't need the picture until we know they've appeared in movies (and at the rate armorers buy new pistols, no time soon.) IMFDB's policy is that we don't need a picture of every variant of a gun that has ever existed (at least not on the gun's page), and ''especially'' if it hasn't appeared in anything yet. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Well that and the fact that the 4th Generation also has a captive recoil spring, but of course how in the hell do you show that? Shot a 4th Gen G17 today at the range. Very nice. Recovery is all that much faster. I was impressed. The company will be coming out with the 4th Gen G19 in a month or so. However the 4th Gen G21SF isn't due out until next year. Sorry 45 acp mafia. I was talking to one of the corporate guys so I feel confident that he knows what he's talking about. Anyway just some nice to know trivia.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 05:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Question about the Gen 4s: Is it true that the compact and subcompact models aren't compatible with the standard size magazines like the previous generations can? - [[User: 2wingo]]

== Glock 34 ==

Just looking at the section for the [[Glock 34]], only [[End of Days]] and [[Man on Fire]]. In both movies, It's used by the Main Character to attempt suicide. That's gonna be a good ad campaign: "''When You Can't Go On Anymore, Reach For Your Glock 34''"

==1st Generation==
Did the first generation of Glock pistols feature anything other than the Glock 17? I've seen second and third generation versions of nearly every model, but the only first generation pistols I've ever seen are Glock 17s. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

A small number of first generation Glock 19's were made. - [[User:Right Wing Gun Nut|Right Wing Gun Nut]]

It should have only been in the glock 17...and you shouldn't see one easily because they didn't meet ATF regulation until the generation 2.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 22:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

What reg did they not meet?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 18:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

:1st Gen Glock 19s do exist, but they're very rare, because Glock went to the checkered front/backstraps on all of its pistols shortly after production began. Also, the Glock 17L and Glock 18 both exist in 1st generation incarnations (though they're also pretty rare). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

::So there were other 1st generation models than the 17, but were all 1st generation guns 9mms? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

To meet American ATF regulations, a steel plate with a stamped serial number was embedded into the dust cover in front of the trigger guard for generation 2. I have seen no evidence of a first generation glock being in any other model than the 17. Even the people that claim they have a generation 1 glock 19 still only show pictures of a generation 2...so i would need to see proof on anything other model being in generation 1. but my knowledge is limited to what's available in the normal U.S.A. for some glock models are not legal to have in the states.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

:Gen 1 Glock 19s do exist. Check out [http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=887305 this topic] from GlockTalk. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

==Other models==
Why were the models that were removed before put back? I thought IMFDB didn't allow sections for variants of a gun that haven't appeared in any media. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]
::See Stan's post below, and also the Glock 20 that was deleted actually WAS in something. When we went to link it, surprise, it wasn't there because it had been removed. Not a good thing. Any SERIES of guns, do not remove the interim gun series entries ever. They are there for continuity in the SERIES of models. The only guns we remove are the weird single gun entries that some member jacked off of google and won't appear in a movie, etc. ever, and if they do, only then do we create the page. The only exception is guns that are in active armorer inventory NOW. That means that there is a much HIGHER chance of them being seen, and we need the gun pics to help members positively ID them. Hope this helps. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 18:51, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:::When the Glock variants were initially deleted I mentioned that having gaps in the list of different models seemed odd, yet those who deleted them responded that any weapons or variants of weapons that have not appeared in media are subject to deletion. I like that the different variants have been restored to the list, I was just curious as to what the procedure was for guns that are variants of weapons that have appeared in films though that specific variant had not since I had heard conflicting information. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]
::::- Yeah, that was me. I found it irksome to have several models (mainly new ones), that weren't listed or even linked to anything, it was annoying to me. I still think that in regards to the newest 30 model guns, but that's just me. BUT, as MPM said, they are still standard guns of the same series, and many are in inventory, so they'll be used in something eventually (If indeed they haven't already and we just don't have pages, etc). I think the main problem was getting rid of older guns like the 20 that are ''definitely'' in stuff already and should be there accordingly. A couple of the other guns are also linked to pages but just don't have them listed - I'll go ahead and add the listing(s) myself if they're listed on complete pages and/or positively ID'd. Otherwise, you could just say they're being proactive. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

-Original Reply- 
I replaced the sections I previously deleted by request of MoviePropMaster2008. Essentially they are for reference right now. However, there are also a sort of placeholder as well - MPM has stated on other pages that such guns are in movie inventory, so eventually they'll get listings/entries - As such, the sections are to remain so that they don't have to be re-created later. A couple of the guns are already linked on pages I believe, but the pages may not be complete or they may not be listed for some other reason. I did remove them because at the time they weren't featured in anything, but it really wasn't my call to remove them in the first place. (EDIT - removed MPM's paraphrased personal message to me, as he posted himself). [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 05:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

::I should point that I am highly skeptical of some of the Glocks IDs that are supposedly [[Glock 20]]s. The episode of ''[[Psych]]'' in which [[John Cena]] supposedly uses a Glock 20 is wrong; I've seen that episode, and he uses a Glock 17L. I'm equally doubtful that the Glock 20 appears in Season 4 of ''[[24]]''. Since we know that (as a rule) movie armorers rarely use any Glocks that aren't 9x19mm, I can't help but wonder if people are going to be tempted to mis-identify Glocks if they see these other variants on the page. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Fair enough, and I'm not defending some of these questionable attributions, but I had to replace a pic for a VIDEO game where the gun was a specific variant of weapon (and was specifically NAMED in the game as an off caliber variant), so we still needed the section. Also foreign helmed films don't have the ammo biases that we in the States do ;) the sheer CHANCE that folks will mis-identify the gun is not reason enough to NOT have the section. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 20:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

:::- Well, in the case of those shows, I'll remove the TV subsection until they're confirmed. I will put in the VG entries, though, as they aren't questionable. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

::::Whoa whoa whoa STOP!!!!! Don't remove ANYTHING!!! IMFDB users should look long and hard and try to correctly ID guns, but for now just creating a BLANK space is unacceptable. What is WITH this rush to delete everything all of a sudden? If you don't have correct info to replace it with, DON'T DELETE IT! YOu can put a disclaimer on the various discussion pages (that there may be a question as to whether or not the gun ID is correct), but I dont' want to start seeing blocks of empty space. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 21:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

::- Uh, wait a minute, the only thing I removed was the TV section for the Glock 20, and that's it. Nothing else. Most of the gun sections I replaced from the other day were '''already blank''' - they didn't have anything before. Again, the TV listing subsection for the Glock 20 section was the '''only''' thing I've removed since I put all the other guns back, and I've since already restored it. Outside of that and adding some subsections to a couple of the guns, I haven't touched the rest of the page. Not trying to give ya a headache MPM, but I really haven't done that much this time, honest. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 23:45, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Sorry, I was just reeling from the previous Glock debacle where I spent an entire morning rephotographing a Glock variant, only to realize later that it had been previously there, but deleted. My brain is still traumatized ;) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 00:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
::- Yeah, I still feel real bad about that.. I'll probably never live that down. Bah. ;b [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

==First appearance==
I remember one of our movie pages pointing out that that film was the first appearance of a Glock Pistol in a movie. Does anyone know which movie that was because I can't remember.

: Don't know. The earliest-set movie page I can immediately spot a Glock (Glock 17) on is [[To Live and Die in L.A.]] (1985), but I'm not certain if that is it. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 04:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

That's not it. We have a page of a movie from the early 80s where the page explicitly states that this is the first appearance of a Glock in film.

:
::I'm pretty skeptical that ''[[To Live and Die in L.A.]]'' features a Glock, because they were not being imported to this country for the civilian market at the time the movie was filmed. Though I guess I'd have to see the movie to be sure. Season 3 of ''[[Miami Vice - Season 3|Miami Vice]]'' featured a Glock 17 in one episode (which was used by [[Don Johnson]]), and that's the earliest documented appearance of a Glock that we have on this site so far besides ''To Live and Die in L.A.''.

::''We have a page of a movie from the early 80s where the page explicitly states that this is the first appearance of a Glock in film.''

::Which page? I just checked all of the pages which feature our 1st gen Glock 17 picture, and didn't see any movies from the early-80s. Also, I'm skeptical because the first Glock 17s available to civilians didn't start coming into the U.S. until 1985, so it's pretty much impossible for any movie/TV show filmed before that to feature a Glock (unless it was filmed in Europe or some other country where Glocks were available sooner). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 13:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::- Not to increase the load, but it might be worth checking under the second gen picture also. After all, not pages pages use the accurate gun picture, whether because they didn't know about the specific differences/generation release dates when they made the page or because the Gen 1 picture wasn't actually around and no one updated the thumbnail. Just a thought. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::I have tried watching To Live and Die in L.A. and get a better cap, it just looks like a black gun to me. [[Johnny Handsome]] featured a Glock, it was released in '89. There's got to be a film before that. That Miami Vice episode aired Jan '87. Good idea about checking the 2nd gen pic. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 16:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::::Point taken on the 2nd Gen G17 pic, I forgot about that. But I don't envy the person who has to sort through all the pages on which it appears (nearly 250 in total, last I looked). But I can still tell y'all that you're highly unlikely to see a Glock in any movie made before 1985, for the reason I mentioned earlier. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:: That's not even counting those that ''don't'' have a gun image, or.. well, you get the point. Bah. I'm afraid we may not find out what page it is, unless Anon's memory gets better. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 22:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::I just checked all of the page links for all three Glock 17 images. So far, I can't find any movies or TV shows other than the ones mentioned previously that have featured Glocks. Of course, there is still the possibility that somebody forgot to put ''any'' image for some movie that featured a Glock, but I imagine we'd have caught that by now.

:::So, I have reached the following conclusion:

:::*Season 3 of ''[[Miami Vice - Season 3|Miami Vice]]'' is the first media appearance of a Glock 17, movie or TV.
:::*''[[Johnny Handsome]]'' is the first known movie to feature a Glock 17.

:::Unless someone finds any earlier appearances (and has the screencaps to prove it), these are the first media appearances of Glocks. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

: Well, it's a page done by Pred, and the section says 'one of the earliest appearances of a Glock', so that's probably what Anonymous was talking about. If not, then we need to kill him for even bringing this up. :b [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that is the page I was talking about, I just couldn't remember it. Please don't kill me. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]
::: Sure, but only because you said please. Mystery solved then? [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 15:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

::Wow look at that, I don't even like Glocks. I don't know if either of you two have seen Johnny Handsome. The gun dealer gave a little explanation about the gun, made in Austria, plastic etc. I just glad it beat Die Hard 2. When I wrote the comment I figured another film had to have featured it before JH that's why I said one of the earliest uses not the first. Unless another comes up with an appearance before JH, [[Mickey Rourke]] has both the first usage of the Desert Eagle and Glock in a film.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 01:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Alright I changed both the pages. If someone has better wording to use, go for it. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 01:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

== Removal of Variants that have not been seen in media ==

I was just re-reading the [[Rules, Standards and Principles]] page and was wondering if anyone has a problem removing the Glock models 24, 28, 29, and 37 - 39 as they have yet to appear in any movies/anime/games. It looks like alot of effort was put into this page so I just want check before making any changes.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 06:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
::'''Good thing you asked, since I would have been pretty pissed at you if you made such a major change without checking first.''' We've had this come up before. A previous member took it upon himself to remove a Glock variant which has not listed, and then, BEHOLD! it was obviously apparent in some movie or tv listing, so ANOTHER member, seeing that we didn't have the section (it had been deleted) copied a jacked GOOGLE image of the gun and re-created the section. I, seeing a CRAP google image thought "hmmm, I could have sworn I photographed that type of Glock for this page already", so I spent the entire morning rephotographing that model of Glock for the Glock page. When I tried to re-upload the photo, IMFDB warned me that this photo already existed. I was "WTF?" By tracking down the history of the page, I tracked down the member who DELETED the glock section and admonished them that it was just creating problems, since a few days AFTER he deleted it, the model appeared in something. So the rule is: DON'T REMOVE ANY VARIANTS on ANY PAGE, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE MPM MOVIE ARMORY PHOTOGRAPHS (which were done specifically FOR IMFDB). Thanks for your attention in this matter :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
:I would leave it, Glocks are hard to tell apart sometimes. So it's good to have all the models on the page for reference. It's not like a user creating an entire new page for a gun that hasn't appeared.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 06:26, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

:::Damn propmaster no need to yell man. There's a reason I asked in here first. Maybe you should add the blurb about not removing variants pictured by armorers in the rules section. That's the only reason I brought up the question in the first place.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 06:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
::::It's not yelling, it's emphasizing. And sorry if it seemed that way. As for the emphasis, it was for all members. You at least asked, but I must emphasize again, if any member MUST do something, try adding to lame pages, resist the temptation to delete other people's work. Leave that to the mods, unless its something ridiculous. MPM

== Numbers ==
Anyone know how Glock comes up with the numbers for their handguns?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 21:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

They are in the order that they were released...starting with the model 17 for it was the 17th patient to get it what it is today. But some people say that the original name came because it holds 17rds then in the order they were released--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 22:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

:Another theory is, if Wikipedia is to be believed, that the Austrian army set out a list of 17 requirements when they were looking for a new pistol to replace the Walther P38. In order for any pistol to be considered for the trials, it had to pass all 17 requirements. The Glock was called the 17 because it was designed specifically with thes standards in mind. Even if this isn't the source of the name, it's still an amusing coincidence. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

== Glock 30 & Glock 36 ==

Can someone explain the Difference between the Glock 30 and Glock 36. They both look like Sub-Compact Glocks in 45. ACP. [[Image:Glock30.jpg|thumb|200px|none|Glock 30 .45 ACP]][[Image:Glock36.jpg|thumb|200px|none|Glock 36 .45 ACP]]
:Glock 36 is a single stack, Glock 30 is a double stack. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 03:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
:Not to mention the Glock 36, while subcompact like the 30, also sports a slimline frame, just 1.13 inches wide and roughly six inches long.--[[User:LordOfTheLocusts|LordOfTheLocusts]] 13:50, 18 December 2011 (CST)

== 18 vs 18C? ==

Just wondering, is there any difference between the Glock 18 and Glock 18C? I think the proper name is 18C, but correct me if I'm wrong.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:26, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:The C models include a built-in compensator, noted by a rectangular slot cut out in the top-front section of the slide and the compensator ports in the barrel. And yes, 18C is the correct name. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:18, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:: Query, how does making cuts into the barrel and slide reduce muzzle climb? - [[User: 2wingo]]
:::It directs the muzzle flash upward, the force of which counteracts the muzzle climb some by pushing the muzzle down. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] ([[User talk:Spartan198|talk]]) 20:30, 1 January 2013 (EST)

== Full Auto? ==

Can other Glock pistols be converted to fire in full-auto, like the Glock 17-impersonating-Glock 18? Specifically, the 19 and 21 models? [[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 18:21, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

:Probably yes. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:46, 17 October 2011 (CDT)
::I've seen FA conversions of the Glock 19, 20, 22, and 26. Also shot a FA conversion 17. Fun weapons but not quite as reliable as a factory conversion IMO. Then again the 17 had been shot all day.[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 02:35, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

In the Dark Knight the joker uses a glock 17 converted to fire full auto.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:44, 21 January 2012 (CST)

== Glocks in shooters ==

hey yall i was just wondering if you knew if their were any FPS games that included a normal glock. when i say normal i mean all minus the 18, it is a ridiculous gun and has very little practical use. my preference is the Glock 21 but i would like to no if there is any notable games that have any model (minus 18) thanks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 20:37, 17 October 2011 (CDT)
:Did you even try looking in the listings on the page? Because I see several listed there.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 21:31, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

::And the Glock 18 is not a ridiculous weapon and ''is'' practical if you know how to use it right (especially the "C" model). - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:44, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

== .380 ACP Glocks ==

Hey all. I edited the Glock 25 and 28 sections to say:

*The Glock 28/25 will very likely never be seen in an American produced film because it is illegal to import in the United States. Since that the ATF ruled it as having no sporting purpose, the only way it will be featured in a film is if the movie is completely produced in a foreign country that has maximum caliber restrictions.

These guns have a less than .01% chance of being seen in films. Just giving a heads up --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 08:04, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, or if the ATF changes the rules (I know, yeah right, but it's not impossible), or if it's an Airsoft gun or mock-up, or it's stock footage, or a dozen other ways you could probably think up. Try to avoid attempting to predict the future on a gun page. Also, "completely produced?" Haven't you ever heard of "on location?" [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:28, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

*Airsoft doesn't make Glock 25/28's, on top of the fact that it's now illegal to produce Glock mock ups now because Glock sued for patent infringement a year or two back. This includes the S&W Sigma series (Glock clones), Airsoft guns, and blank guns. Even if the gun could be used, do you know how hard it is to make a straight blowback gun fire blanks? It just isn't worth the effort. The ATF will not change the rules unless the supreme court miraculously changes the law, which is next to 0% unless people start voting with their brains. Lastly, "on location" filming still has American owned guns used, therefore those Glocks will not be seen. Trust me man, it ain't happening.

PS. I saw your edit on the Glock 25. The Glock 25 can't be imported no matter what. Law enforcement or not, they CAN'T. Also, Brazil has a maximum energy ban (nothing bigger than .380 for handguns,) not a "military caliber" ban. I'm going to fix those parts. --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 09:30, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

:On location filming doesn't necessarily have American guns used. ''Rambo III'', for example, was American-produced but filmed partly in Israel and used stocks of weapons that would be impossible to get in the US, such as real DShK machine guns. The same arrangement (location filming with a local armourer) would make it far from impossible for these weapons to appear in a US-produced movie. Also, I'm fairly sure you're wrong. Here's the section of the relevant law:

:"If importing NFA and non-sporting weapons, please ensure an official government contract, purchase order, or letter typed on official law enforcement and/or government letterhead, bearing the original signature of the chief law enforcement official having jurisdiction over that area, is attached to the completed Form 6."

:The 25 is a "non-sporting weapon" because it fails the import test, but that doesn't stop a government or law enforcement ''agency'' buying it. It does mean ''individual'' officers can't import them, though.

:Also, IIRC didn't Glock do something weird like trademark the shape of their weapons rather than sue for patents? I think H&K did the same with the MP5 at about the same time. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:45, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Pretty much. They sued because the imitations were substantially identical to the iconic Glock shape. Just so you know, the Glock company is a bunch of jerks.

When it comes to using other country's armorers/weapons, it usually doesn't happen. Rambo can be the exception, but 99.99% of the time it's cheaper to mock up existing weapons and use your own armorer than to go out of the way for the real deal when usually no one will know the difference.

Also, that ATF letter is only true in name only. Regardless of signatures or agency, the request to import still has to be approved by the ATF, which it NEVER is. Look around. There are no post '86 machine guns or "non sporting" weapons used by ANY LE agency in the US (not talking about the ARMY/NAVY/Etc.) because the letters are NEVER approved. There's a couple A1 M16's with A2 uppers and MP5's with a pre '86 trigger group in use, but that's about it for LE agencies special guns usage, and all of those are pre '86 weapons.--[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 11:35, 2 November 2011 (CDT)
::Not true Ranger. There is a Dealer's Sample MP7A1 floating around the Pacific Northwest and there is a thread on HKPro about a different MP7A1 spotted in the hands of a female Motorcycle officer. I have also seen MP5A5s inside other California police cars. It's not that the BATFE doesn't sign off on the forms its just that most cops have no reason to use Automatic weapons.[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 01:04, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

:Yeah, and a LE agency isn't going to be jumping through hoops to buy a .380 ACP pistol anyway, but it's enough to say that only LE and government could even ''theoretically'' import them according to the law for purposes of the page; it's ''not'' true to say they can't legally be imported when the law says they can be. I do agree with you that it's stunningly unlikely for a number of reasons, I just dislike terms like "impossible" being thrown around because I'm horribly pedantic. :) [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:40, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Agreed. Especially when they can pick up a just-as-good Beretta 84 without the blinking of an eye. I noticed you live in England. Here in America, there are a couple laws which supposedly make certain things allowable with the right approval, however approval never comes and those permits are deemed impossible to obtain.

Some states allow the carrying of a handgun at 18 years old, but Sheriffs won't sign off on it, well just because. In New Jersey, you are allowed to carry a handgun, but to get the permit you need a "justifiable cause," and it happens that the only justifiable one they see is carrying more than $500,000 a day for work. Apparently my self defense isn't important enough to them. It's the same with the ATF. They don't like it, you can't have it. Unfortunately it isn't constitutional, but the judges here don't quite have the guts to end their illegal rule right now. Thanks for reading my rant ;) --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 11:52, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, everywhere has laws that technically exist but aren't enforced properly. Though ours mostly tend to have more to do with extremely precise ways for it to be legal to murder the Welsh. :P [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:56, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Bingo. Nice job with the edit too by the way --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 12:51, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Hollywood is not the only people that make Movies...In fact there are hundreds of movies made every year without america having anything to do with them...and most of the time they are better off for it. Just because a gun is outlawed in the USA does not mean that it cant be used by another country that might decide to make a movie that may some day grace the pages of IMFDB.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:40, 21 January 2012 (CST)

== Glock 18 selector switch ==

Is the slide mounted selector switch on the Glock 18 on both sides of the slide or just the left side? --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 14:34, 8 January 2012 (CST)
:Left side only --[[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:56, 8 January 2012 (CST)
::Well that complicates things. Thanks. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 15:08, 8 January 2012 (CST)

== Naming of glocks ==

Does anyone know the story behind the naming of the Glocks? Why did they start with 17? --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 21:26, 20 January 2012 (CST)
:The Glock 17 holds 17 rounds, but where they went from there I have no idea.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:00, 20 January 2012 (CST)
::Is that REALLY why its called the Glock 17?!?! --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 22:01, 20 January 2012 (CST)

No its not. It came from one of these two things:
The Glock 17 was called the Glock 17 because it was Gaston Glock's 17th patent.
OR
There were 17 criteria the Austrian military had for their new pistol, that the Glock was made to meet.

Its pretty up in the air, and I've heard both stories from GLOCK reps.
-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 10:03, 21 January 2012 (CST)

all the other numbers are in order in which they where made and interduced...the 17 being the first production model followed by the 18 and so on. So the 10mm models where made and interduced before the .45acp models.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:43, 21 January 2012 (CST)

== Stupid question ==

I have kind of a stupid question but why do people think glocks suck so much? or at least people think there not that good of a gun?--Gunner5

Maybe people never had shoot Glocks.And they probably think: "Oh,it's plastic! What an awful pistol! I better use my full-metal 1911!"
But,it's just my opinion. Actually,I have the same question. :) [[User:Littlesoldier1|Littlesoldier1]] 03:07, 29 February 2012 (CST)

:This is pretty comprehensive: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/gindex2.html Apparently it's mostly to do with [http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html this] and [http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html this] happening back in the nineties, and the [http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html pressure failures] and [http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/problems.html slide rail failures] a bit later. People tend to get nervous about a pistol that they've heard might blow their fingers off or try to insert its slide into their nose, no matter how unlikely it actually is (and even after the problem itself has been solved, most of the time). Along with the fact that everything popular accumulates people saying it sucks, obviously. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:35, 29 February 2012 (CST)

Some people just don't like the feel of them. I personally don't like the Gen 3 Glocks; the grip angle is wrong for me, and the magazine release is just god awful. Glock fixed these issues (for me, anyway) with the Gen 4s. Now if they could just make steel sights standard... --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 15:05, 29 February 2012 (CST)

== "Compensated" Glock Pistols ==

Glock offers many of their pistols as a "Compensated" model. They denote this by adding the letter C to the model number - such as 23C. Even though they are called "compensated," they are actually ported. Does anyone know of a "Compensated" Glock being used in film or TV?

:Please sign your posts next time with the signature button on the Edit page's tools. Yes, the "C" models of Glock handguns have barrel ports (which also counts as compensated to most). No, I haven't seen compensated pistols in film or TV (probably because ported barrels are harder to get a hold of than standard ones, and possibly because in certain scenes the redirected muzzle blast that reduces muzzle rise could act in unpredictable/harmful ways), but you could always ask the more knowledgeable members of this wiki. You are far likelier to see compensated Glocks in video games than TVs or Movies, though most of the time they don't actually show the redirected muzzle blast when firing ([[GRAW 2]] is an exception).--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:44, 21 April 2012 (CDT)

==Glock 17/19==
How do you tell the diferance? I can't see anything that's visualy diferant. Also, on an unrelated note, why is there no compact .45ACP Glock? They have a standard, a subcompact, and a slim, but no compact.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 18:13, 23 June 2012 (CDT)

Well the Glock 19 is clearly shorter than the Glock 17 when seen in someone's hand or by itself.

== Stainless Steel vs. Chrome ==

On the various pictures of two-toned 3rd Gen. Glock 17s, I notice that some say it has a stainless steel slide, others say it is chrome. How do you tell the difference? - [[User: 2wingo]]
:Chrome is usually very shiny. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] ([[User talk:Cool-breeze|talk]]) 05:47, 29 December 2012 (EST)

== Glock 29 hard to shoot? ==
I've gotten mixed messages about this one. I've heard that the 10mm Auto cartridge has hellacious recoil, but in every video I've seen it shot in, the shooter didn't seem to be having a difficult time of it at all. Would anyone care to offer their 2 cents? - [[User: 2wingo]]

:Your best bet is to ask the posters of those videos how the recoil was for them. In any case, it's not a .44 magnum--at full loading it comes closest to the .41 magnum. The Glock frame also helps to tame the recoil somewhat. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] ([[User talk:Mazryonh|talk]]) 19:41, 12 January 2013 (EST)

From one guy I know who has this gun as his off duty carry, it's not hard to shoot and the recoil isn't too powerful. The concept came from testings of women shooters by the FBI saying they can't handle the recoil [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] ([[User talk:Excalibur01|talk]]) 20:24, 16 January 2013 (EST)

You also must realize that the original 10mm loadings were a lot hotter than what most ammo companies are making. The loads were reduced due to both complaints about the recoil, and the beating it would put on firearms.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] ([[User talk:Ranger01|talk]]) 21:18, 16 January 2013 (EST)

Talk:M1911 pistol series

2012-12-18T04:58:14Z

Ranger01: /* Longslides */

==Additional Variants==
===Screen Used===
[[Image:EnemyofState1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Screen-used original Colt M1911 pistol wielded by [[Gene Hackman]]'s character Brill in ''[[Enemy of the State]]'', serial #357414 (photo from Long Mountain Outfitters).]]
[[Image:M1911WeWereSoldiers.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Screen used M1911 pistol (Hero Gun) carried and used by [[Sam Elliott]] as Command Sergeant Major Basil Plumley in ''[[We Were Soldiers]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1WeWereSoldiers.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Screen Used Hero Gun M1911A1, carried by [[Mel Gibson]] as Lt. Col. Hal Moore in the film ''[[We Were Soldiers]]'' - .45 ACP. Provided by Cinema Weaponry.]]
[[Image:ColtMkIVSilver DeNiro Machete.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Custom engraved nickel plated Colt MKIV Series 80 with pearl grips - .45 ACP. This is the screen used pistol for [[Robert De Niro]] playing Senator McLaughlin in the upcoming Robert Rodriguez film [[Machete]] (scheduled for release on April 16, 2010). ]]
[[Image:ColtCustomXXX.jpg‎|thumb|450px|none|This is the screen used Colt XSE M1911 Pistol, wielded, carried (and lost) by August Gibbons ([[Samuel L. Jackson]]) in the film ''[[XXX 2: State of the Union]]''. This pistol has a customized slide with the initials "A G" etched (for "Augustus Gibbons") and also has the logo for SEAL TEAM 4 in the center - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:T2M1911detonicsprop.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The Colt/Detonics M1911A1 Series 70 hybrid pistol used in the film ''[[Terminator 2: Judgment Day]]'' - 9x19mm.]]
[[File:Saradet.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Detonics 1911 used in the film ''[[Terminator 2: Judgment Day]]''. Image courtesy of ScreeUsed.com]]
[[Image:TitanicM1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|A Nickel-Plated ''[[Titanic]]'' M1911 from Stembridge Gun Rentals - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:P1010522ig5.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Actual D&L Sports Professional Model Longslides - .45 ACP movie props used by the Comedian [[Jeffrey Dean Morgan]] in ''[[Watchmen]]''.]]
[[Image:Wanted_21.JPG|thumb|none|450px|The Safari Arms Matchmaster used by [[Angelina Jolie]] in the film ''[[Wanted]]'' - .45 ACP. Note Safari Arms Lion logo.]]
[[Image:1911-The Getaway.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Government Commercial M1911 - .45 ACP used by [[Steve McQueen]] in the film ''[[Getaway, The (1972)]]''.]]
[[Image:M&MSColtXSEusedinfilm.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The Colt M1911A1 XSE - .45 ACP used in the film ''[[Mr. & Mrs. Smith]]''.]]
[[Image:ColtM1911A1PunisherProps.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The two blank firing prop custom Colt M1911A1s used in the film ''[[Punisher, The (2004)]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:NashBridges1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Nash Bridges' Custom 1911 - .38 Super. This is the actual pistol that was used by [[Don Johnson]] in the show ''[[Nash Bridges]]''.]]
[[Image:Colt-M1911A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The actual M1911A1 [[Pierce Brosnan]] used in ''[[The World Is Not Enough]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:SerenityM191A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Jayne Cobb's Mocked-Up Custom M1911A1 - .45 ACP used in the film ''[[Serenity]]''.]]
[[Image:P00654 1911 Full Left.jpg|thumb|none|450px|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen used Colt M1911 with Nickel-plated and pearl grips - .45 ACP pistol. This non-firing prop weapon is verified as screen used from the film '''[[The Other Guys]]'''. The gun is accompanied by the Galco shoulder holster and clip pouch also used in numerous scenes from the film. This item is currently being sold by [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet]; see [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=6ef04a13fbe759cbdcbdc6bc4c4b809f&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TGC&Product_Code=P00654&Category_Code=OtherGuys here].]]
[[Image:IMG 1509.JPG|thumb|none|450px|A Strayer Voight Infinity - .45 ACP. This is one of the actual guns that has been used by The Company henchmen on ''[[Heroes]]''; this weapon was supplied to the show by Independent Studio Services and has been used on every season.]]
[[Image:IMG 0444.JPG|thumb|none|450px|[[M1911|Colt MK IV Series 80]] - .45 ACP This was used in the film ''[[Street Kings]]'' and the series ''[[Chase]]'' and ''[[Dark Blue]]''.]]

===Airsoft Variants===

[[Image:CobrGold1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Perfect airsoft replica of [[Cobra]]'s Colt GC National Match - 9mm Pistol made by Western Arms.]]
[[Image:Htk1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft replica of Storm's M1911A1 from ''[[Hard to Kill]]'' - made by Western Arms.]]
[[Image:WA490 4 mark.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Long Slide Jim Hoag M1911A1 replica - .45 ACP, very similar to what Frank ([[James Caan]]) used in the film ''[[Thief]]''.]]
[[Image:Snake_.45-2.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Sheriff Co. "Custom M1911" Airsoft Gun - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Baby1.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Airsoft WE HiCapa 5.1 Full Metal Dragon Custom M1911 (Type B) Black Model with blue LED lights in the grip - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Detonics CombatMaster M1911 airsoft.jpg|450px|thumb|none|WE "Caspian Arms" M1911 replica of a Detonics CombatMaster M1911 or a Colt Officer's ACP - .45ACP]]
[[Image:Colt M1911.jpg|450px|thumb|none|Yu Teng 'YT385' replica of the original Colt M1911A1 model - .45ACP]]

===Other Variants===
[[File:M1911A1PreWar.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Detailed screenshot of prewar M1911A1]]
[[Image:Kongsberg M1914.JPG|thumb|450px|none|Kongsberg M1914 - .45 ACP. The Kongsberg M/1914 is a Colt M1911 pistol produced under license by the Norwegian factory Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk, with a minor modification to the slide stop and stock.]]
[[Image:.38Super1911MachinePistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The real-life Dillinger's .38 Super M1911A1 Machine Pistol, for comparison purposes.]]
[[Image:ED 45.jpg|thumb|none|450px|AMT Hardballer Longslide with laserlock sight as used in the film ''[[The Terminator]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:AMT_Hardballer_Hitman_Replica.jpg|390px|thumb|none|A near-perfect, firing, replica of the "Silverballers" from the Hitman series.]]
[[Image:0862731R.jpg|thumb|none|450px|M1911A1 Commercial (Same marks of the movie's pistol) - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:M1911A1ithaca.jpg|thumb|none|450px|World War II Ithaca made M1911A1 with light grey finish - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:PublicEnemies1.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Pre-War Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP used on ''[[Public Enemies]]'' (2009)]]
[[Image:SW1911pd.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911PD Tactical Rail - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:1911 Longslide.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP. This model is very similar to the one in the episode on the ''[[Miami Vice (TV Series)]]''.]]
[[Image:Colt45.jpg|thumb|none|450px|M1911A1 .45 ACP with Pachymar grips]]
[[Image:Taurus PT1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Taurus PT1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Bruni8mm.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Bruni M1911A1-style blank firing stage prop - 8mm blank.]]
[[Image:Peter-1-5006-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Federal Ordnance PSP-07 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:TIKI.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Strayer Voight Infinity TIKI - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:CustomM1911A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom Colt Series 80 M1911A1 pistol similair to one in the film ''[[Street Kings]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:LaserAimSeriesIIIPistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|LaserAim Series III Pistol - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:ColtDefenderRIGHT83.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Defender - .45 ACP was similar to the one used in the game ''[[Uncharted 2: Among Thieves]]''.]]
[[Image:GM45M1911A1-3.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Hybrid 1911 "Gladys" fitted with a nickel plated three cut compensator - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Delta 001.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Delta Elite - 10mm Auto]]
[[Image:SM178017.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911 Pro Series - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:SW108282.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:FLX 2.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Nighthawk FLX - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Triple_Tap_IMM_Open_pistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|This SVI 1911 - .45 ACP is almost exactly like the one used in the film ''[[Triple Tap]]''. The description on the website reads, "IMM Open pistol made of carbon steel with Titanium compensator." (Picture supplied by sviguns.com)]]
[[Image:ColtM1991A1L.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt M1991A1 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:The Veteran Colt 1991A1 Series 80.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt M1991A1 Series 80 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1USAF.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Black Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP]]
[[image:Razorcat.jpg|thumb|none|401px|Limcat Custom 2011 RazorCat - .45 ACP]]
[[File:Sight-Tracker.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Strayer Voigt Infinity Sight Tracker - .40 S&W. This is one of 10 pistols custom made by SVI for the television show ''[[Top Shot - Season 3|Top Shot]]''.]]
[[Image:MV_Tiki.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Crockett loads up his [[Strayer Voight Infinity TIKI]].]]
[[Image:Infinity_tiki1911.jpg‎|thumb|300px|none|SVI TIKI.]]
[[File:Umarex 1911 blank firer right side.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Umarex Colt Government 1911 A1, right side showing the external extractor and slide markings - 9mm P.A.K. blanks]]
[[File:Her Arms CPE.jpg|450px|thumb|none|[[Hera Arms CPE]], a carbine conversion kit for MILSPEC M1911 variants - .45 ACP]]
[[File:MOH Warfighter Vickers Tactical 1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom-built Vickers Tactical 1911 for the game ''[[Medal of Honor: Warfighter]]'' - .45 Auto]]

==Video game appearances of this pistol series==

Why is it that the "Video Game appearances" tables have a column named "Passwords"? I don't think it's for passwords to unlock them, because to my knowledge very few video games actually have a password system to unlock weapons. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a "Notes" after the "Mods" section where certain pertinent but miscellaneous information can be written, such as what copyright-infringement-avoiding name it goes under in the game, or whether it is chambered in a non-standard caliber?

I'd like this cleared up. Oh, and someone needs to include a note saying that "mods" is short for "modifications/customizations for the weapon," not "downloadable modifications to the game itself."--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 06:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

:I agree. Frankly I think both the "Mods" and "Passwords" sections can go, since the latter is pointless and the former's purpose can be adequately served by "Notes". --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 15:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

==Colt Government Model Section==
With regard to the following sentence:

''"Aside from Colt selling the M1911A1 to the US military, the gun was also sold under the name "Colt Government Model" to the civilian market, and called the "Pre-Series 70" guns today."''

First, the Colt Government Model was introduced in 1912, and as such, it was originally in the M1911 configuration. When the U.S. Military switched to the M1911A1 configuration in the mid 1920s, Colt began manufacturing their Government Models in the M1911A1 configuration as well. So early Government Models parallel the military's M1911 configuration, while later Government Models (after the mid 1920s) parallel the military's M1911A1 configuration. Additionally, not only pre-Series 70 guns are Government Models. Series 70 and Series 80 guns are both Government Models. In fact, Colt still makes the Government Model to this day in various configurations.

With regard to the following sentence:

''"For IMFDB purposes, this can also be referred to as an M1911A1. In this manner, there is no need to list film, television, anime, video games in this section."''

It is sloppy to refer to a Colt Government Model as an M1911A1. "M1911A1" is the U.S. Military designation for a particular type of gun, and most of them were not even made by Colt (Remington Rand [the typewriter company] made most of them). I can see referring to a gun as an "M1911 type" or "M1911A1 type" if the manufacturer can't be determined, but when you simply type "M1911" or "M1911A1" you are referring to a U.S. Military contract pistol.

On top of that, the pictured gun in the Colt Government Model section is not even a "Pre-Series 70", it is a pre-enhanced Series 80 Government Model.

--[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 21:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

:So it's like how we don't call it the Beretta M9, we call it the Beretta 92FS. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 03:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

::With the M9 vs. 92FS situation, it is next to impossible to tell the difference between the two onscreen, unless there is a closeup allowing one to read the markings. In such cases I would say, if a civilian character is using the gun, it is probably intended to be a 92F or 92FS. If a military character is using it, it is probably intended to be an M9, regardless of what the actual prop is. I would assume that most—if not all—movie and TV props are actually 92Fs or 92FSs, because I don't believe that actual M9s have ever been made available for civilian sale.

::With the M1911 or M1911A1 vs. the Colt Government Model (or other brands of 1911-type guns), it is usually possible to tell the difference onscreen without being able to read the markings. For example, the Colt Government Model does not have a lanyard loop. Most M1911A1s were parkerized, while no Government Models were parkerized. When dealing with more modern Government Models, there are even more differences. For example, starting in 1950, Government Models started coming with a full-shelf thumb safety; while all M1911[A1]s had partial-shelf thumb safeties. Also at this time, Government Models started being given a finish with polished flats and matte radiuses, while blued and Du-Lite (similar to bluing in appearance) M1911A1s had polished radiuses and brushed flats or entirely polished (depending on the manufacturer and/or time of manufacture); and of course the more common parkerized M1911A1s were simply all matte.

::Additionally, the newer Government Models as mentioned above have narrow hammers with polished sides left "in the white", and polished chamber hoods also left "in the white". Many M1911A1s had wide-spur hammers, and the ones that had narrow hammers were fully finished (no polished "in the white" sides) and they all had fully blued barrels, including the otherwise parkerized ones (no polished "in the white" chamber hoods).

::Most of the Government Models you see onscreen from the early 70s to the mid-to-late '80s were actually 9mm versions, though they were usually representing a "forty-five" onscreen. This had to do with reliable functioning with readily available 9mm blanks. Colt introduced the 9mm version of the Government Model when they introduced the Series 70 in the early 1970s, and the 9mm version of the CGM had a lowered ejection port (while the .45 ACP version still had the standard military style ejection port). With the introduction of the Series 80 Government Model in 1983, the .45 ACP version also got a lowered ejection port. No M1911[A1] had a lowered ejection port.

::I'll give an example. In the show Magnum, P.I., his gun is blued with polished flats and matte radiuses; polished "in the white" chamber hood and hammer sides, and a lowered ejection port. It is clear from looking that the gun is a Series 70 Colt Government Model chambered for 9mm (though it was always addressed as a "forty-five" in the show's dialogue); and is definitely not an M1911A1. Recently the gun came up for auction and is now in the NRA's National Firearms Museum, and it has been confirmed that that is exactly what the main prop gun was (serial # 70L33101 to be exact).

::--[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 21:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

==Primary M1911 description==
Who wrote this? The historical paragraph (on the background of the M1911) implies that the M1911 was replaced by the U.S. Military AFTER Operation Desert Storm (1991) which is not true. The Beretta M92 (M9) was already approved and adopted by 1985.

Well for a period of time both the 1911 and M9 were in use by the U.S. military,therefore just because the M9 was in service does'nt mean it replaced the 1911 by that time, and for awhile soldiers actualy got to choose which weapon they prefered :o [[User:Leadback|Leadback]]
======================================
The Beretta M9 officially replaced the M1911 in 1985. They still used the M1911, but they weren't buying anymore. They simply phased them out over the years. Now there are some units in the US military that still use the M1911. The M9 is really only used by conventional military nowadays. For example, the Navy SEALs don't even use the M9 or M1911 anymore. They have the H&K MK23 Mod 0. Which is a purpose-built USP .45. I've even heard of some SEALs using the Ruger Mk. II. It's a .22 target pistol with an integrated silencer on it.

Soldiers were never given the choice to choose. They were given the M9, but many didn't like it. It was big, many could not shoot it accurately, and lots contested the effectiveness of the 9x19 round. Lots of people I work with were in the military around the time of the switch, were given the M9, hated it, and decided just to keep carrying the M1911. It wasn't until they were given an official order that they were forced to carry the M9. And even there, there were times when they went back to the M1911s the military had stored up. For example, out in the deserts. The magazines the military bought were junk, got sand in them, and jammed. The M1911 functioned perfectly. Same thing is happening over there now.

wrong. Special Operations soldiers are given their choice of a sidearm( and assault rifle). 1stSFOD-D has been using 1911s since foundation. infact Larry Vickers (Nighthawk Customs) has worked very closely with Delta Force. Nighthawk 1911s are being used by Delta. 2- the Seals in Vietnam started out with the Ruger Mk II Suppressed. and know one still used the HK MK23. it was fazed out years ago because of how bulky it is. SEALs use the Sig Sauer P226 or USPs. but that is still a generalization. because all SOF have a choice in sidearm [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==Para-Ordance==
Shouldnt these guns get their own page? Sure they are a 1911 varients, but their made by a totally different company.[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]] 00:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
:Yeah, but they're 1911 variants. This is the M1911 pistol series page, and they are 1911s. That's why they are on here. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::I would prefer the Para Ordnance series of pistols have their own page due PRIMARILY to the fact that the Paras have a whole slew of different calibers that other M1911 makes and models don't have [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

What calibers does para have that other 1911 manufactures do not have?--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 01:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

On the main page, the LDA entry claims that some of the LDA models were made DA/SA with an exposed hammer, but that isnt true is it? I thought all the LDA were Double Action Only, with the exposed hammer simply for aesthetic reasons? -MissySummers-
:Well this is FINALLY happening! [[Para-Ordnance 1911 Series]]. --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 02:11, 16 June 2012 (CDT)

== The M in the page title ==

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the M in the page title incorrect? These are Colt 1911s (or 1911a1s, etc.), not Colt M1911s, unless referred to by US military nomenclature, just the same way that a Beretta 92f is an M9 only to the US Army and a SIG Sauer P228 is an M11 only in USAF terms. Just because it's the model of 1911 doesn't make it an M1911, any more than a '67 Shelby GT500 is an M67 Shelby GT500.[[User:YourMessageHere|YourMessageHere]] 08:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
::No. The Colt pistol was formally adopted by the Army on March 29, 1911, thus gaining its designation, M1911 (Model of 1911). Only examples or prototypes prior to the year 1911 would NOT have the M designation (which is extremely rare). Between the years of 1907 and 1910 the Colt pistol was constantly being modified and re-designed to win the Army's trials for adoption of a new handgun. The gun was only mass produced AFTER winning the Army's pistol trials. The Beretta 92FS was already famous world wide and was commercially available as the 92F/FS for YEARS before the Army adopted it. Every 1911 design came AFTER the M1911 (aka Model of 1911) so it is the correct nomenclature. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Using "1911" to refer to any and all pistols based on the M1911 design has only been popular for about fifteen years. Prior to that, the vast majority of such pistols were Colts, and were usually called "Colt .45s", even if they were pistols made by wartime contractors like Remington Rand. Those commercial guns that weren't made by Colt, as made by Vega, Randall, Federal Ordnance, Essex, etc., were called "clones", as they were generally close copies of the Colt. When makers started adding previously "custom" features to production-line guns, and branching into areas that Colt hadn't, a new name was needed, and "1911" became popular. The problem that I have with the various names on the site is the mixing of military and commercial designations; a gun cannot be a "M1911A1 Government Model", as M1911A1 is a military designation, and Government Model is what Colt has always called the civilian version of the "M" military pistols. Colt has made M1911s (1912-circa 1924), M1911A1s (circa 1926-1945), and Government Models (1912-date), but you can't mix or combine those names without confusing the issue.

==Caliber question==
I thought I would ask permission before making this change considering how important this article is: in the specifications category the caliber is listed solely as .45 ACP. I was wondering whether or not that should be changed to include .380 ACP, .38 Super, 9mm, and .40 S&W?
:-[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

No, since the ORIGINAL Colt M1911 is .45 ACP Caliber, it should stay like that, since copies of the M1911 maybe have different calibers those should be put on the "copy" section

Agreed --[[PunisherDave]]

==M1991 Series==
I was wondering: what exactly is the difference between the 1911 series and the 1991 series? -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 17:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Colt introduced (announced) the M1991A1 in 1991 as a sort of economy version of the Government Model, resembling the military M1911A1, and with the serial numbers picking up where the military gun left off after WWII. The gun was made in that form until about 2003, at which time the finish was changed to polished blue rather than matte blue, and the black rubber grips replaced with checkered wood.
:I heard a guy explain on youtube that 1991 got "extra safety feature" which blocked firing pin movement entirely when trigger was not pressed; allegedly this modification appeared after a incident involving police officer accidentally killing suspect while snapping him with the gun. However, this modification somehow managed to eject firing pin from the slide during decocking so only few people liked it --[[User:Cover72|Cover72]] 21:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
::The YouTube guy doesn't know what he's talking about. The Colt M1991A1 did have the Series 80 firing pin safety, but this was introduced on all Colt Government Models in the early 1980s when the Series 80 version replaced the Series 70. The modification has never caused any problems, aside from perhaps complicating the trigger pull slightly, making it a little more difficult to achieve a good "trigger job". Also, the Series 80 parts are easily removed (and normally a few other minor things are done), and the gun will function just fine, in the same manner as a pre-Series 80 gun. The Series 80 firing pin safety wasn't prompted by any specific accidental police shooting. The only thing a non-Series 80 1911-type gun can accidentally shoot due to the lack of a firing pin safety is the ground. In other words, if a non-Series 80 1911-type gun is dropped from a significantly high height (6 feet or so I believe) directly onto its muzzle, the firing pin can continue forward with enough inertia to dent the primer, thus firing the gun (into the ground of course).

::It is too bad that Colt went to the trouble of designing the Series 80 modifications back in the early '80s, because the remote risk of accidental discharge as I described above is more easily solved by simply using a titanium firing pin (rather than the usual steel firing pin) along with a different weight firing pin spring. Since the titanium firing pin weighs less than a steel one, it has less inertia, and a 1911 so-equipped will pass the drop test just fine. In fact, Colt now uses titanium firing pins on their Series 70 Government Models that they started reissuing several years ago. If Colt had thought of the titanium firing pin idea back in the early '80s, they wouldn't have had to make any actual changes to the legendary 1911 design (changes which annoyed a lot of people), and they might not have lost so much of the 1911 market.

::Now, about the M1991A1: it went through a few different incarnations, but it originally was simply an economy version of the Series 80 Colt Government Model. Instead of the polished blue finish of the Government Model (polished flats and matte radiuses), it had an all-matte blue finish. It also had really cheap plastic grips that didn't fit well (they fell short of the bottom of the grip frame by about 3/16"). It also had a big, ugly rollmark on the slide, with "M1991A1" emblazoned in huge block letters. Finally, it came with a flat mainspring housing and a long trigger (both plastic), which was like the original M1911 (pre-M1911A1), which was ironic considering it was named M1991'''A1'''. --[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 09:13, 17 December 2011 (CST)

==Terminator 2==
It was my understanding that the 1911 used in the film was a custom Colt frame with a fitted Detonic slide. Was it a combatmaster slide? [[Special:Contributions/65.29.239.251|65.29.239.251]] 09:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

== blank firers / K911 ==

I've added/moved blank firing Kimar 911 to the bottom of page as told by MoviePropMaster2008 ''("Non-firing replicas of the M1911 belong on the bottom of the M1911 page. Thanks.")'' 
But I wonder, shouldn't there be an entire sub-category of blank firers (with K911 being sub-section of this) in order to distinguish blanks from the real ones? It ''might'' look confusing this way. And also, I made multiple photos of K911 for what I thought would be it's page here including disassembled weapon photo, so perhaps these unused ones might be deleted? --[[User:Cover72|Cover72]] 21:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==Strayer Voigt Infinity ==
This gun is using a frame from STI, they call that frame the 2011, it's double stacked. And is made from steel and polymer.

:are Strayer Voigt Infinity custom built guns? or just have alot of models? Rex095

The modular frames look exactly like those used by STI. http://www.sviguns.com
Don't know if they collaborate or something. They (SVI) have more optional grips than STI.

Both companies reside in Texas.
::Read up: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strayer_Voigt_Inc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strayer_Voigt_Inc]

Does anyone know the mag cap for a Strayer Voigt Infinity in 45acp? - captain snikt

==Police service pistols==

Before the 90s were American Police ever issued the M1911, or were they're only given to the FBI and SWAT team?

- Some regular state/county/municipal departments might have used a 1911 as a standard duty-weapon before semiautos came into heavy use following the eighties, but I imagine that's a very low number. I certainly don't know of any specific departments myself offhand. Not that many departments use 'em much today. As a 1911 generally was considered a large pistol with a fairly powerful round it wasn't considered easy to use and handle by regular officers. Same general reason why departments in older times stuck with .38s over .357s - The .357 was generally considered too powerful for standard-duty officers. As such, most police departments used 9mms when they first went to automatics in the eighties as there were few semiauto calibers with lower recoil impulse and power at the time than .45ACP.

Some other police units might have used 1911s when it suited them - Homicide detectives in our county's police dept. carried 1911 type pistols, though I don't think that was the county's standard sidearm for uniformed officers. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 02:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

:There's another reason, besides caliber, that the 1911 wouldn't have been too popular in the old days - it's a single-action. Before DA-only became more acceptable (i.e. Glocks), most LE departments preferred handguns that were SA/DA. Almost all police revolvers used prior to the 1980s, like the S&W Model 15 and 19, or the Colt Python, were single- or double-action. This bias continued into the 1980s when a lot of departments started adopting the Beretta 92F and the 3rd Generation Smith & Wesson autos. Now that Glocks have been around long enough, DA-only is finally becoming the standard. But SA-only is pretty much a no-go to any LE agency, and that's the way it was even before the 1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 02:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't Glocks SA-only? The firing pin is cocked by cambering a round?

Would a Smith and Wesson Model 39 or 639 or Colt Commander be more acceptable for police use back then?

- To MT, that's a good point as well. SA weapons do require a lot of training and familiarity to operate effectively and safely, and as such, again, weren't considered practical for regular police officers either. Very good to point out. If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the main reasons why the 1911 fell out of favor in the Armed Forces as well - the fact they required extensive training and familiarity to use and carry safely. DA weapons are easier to train and operate with. Very true.

As for the Glock question, no, Glocks are actually DA only.

As for actions - In a Single-Action (SA) firearm, the hammer must be manually cocked to a firing position prior to pulling the trigger. Just like revolvers of the old west. Double action firearms will both cock and release the hammer when the trigger is pulled. SA/DA firearms use double-action by default, but feature an externally accessible hammer to allow single-action style firing (by cocking the hammer back and then pulling the trigger). Modern revolvers are perhaps the simplest examples of this.

DAO (Double-Action-Only) firearms only fire by double-action as they don't have an accessible hammer for single-action cocking. Such as Glock and various other semiauto pistols.

So if you have empty casing in the chamber, an pull the trigger several times, you would hear a loud click every time because the firing pin would be cocked every time? That's what happens in a DAO gun. If not, it's a SAO.

And on the last question, yes the Smith 39/59 pistols were used by police departments back then. Illinois State Police used the 59 back in the 60s/70s if I remember my Jane's Gun Recognition book correctly. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 05:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Correction, Glocks are not DAO. They fire from a half-cocked position. When you dry fire the gun, the hammer falls and must be recocked by racking the slide, it does not cock by double action springs. That's why the have a slightly heavy trigger pull, they are half cocked, and are brought to full cock and dropped by pulling the trigger. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::: Bah, how did I miss that.. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

i thought glocks were striker-fired?

I think I read that Tacoma, WA police carry 1911s as standard issue service weapons.

I read on another forum that the LAPD authorises 1911 varients to officers, however they have to go through an intense training program to be authorised for it and they have to re-qualify ever few months too. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 16:30, 28 March 2011 (CDT)

Yes. A Glock is a "striker-fired" weapon so technically it is not either double action or single action because a glock doesnt have a hammer but instead releases the firing pin inside the slide. However if you were going to have to compare it, Single Action would be the closest term. Because the firing pin is "cocked" when the slide is racked and then the trigger only releases it and firing the round. Additionally a Glock does not qualify as a double action because it in no way cocks anything with the trigger. The trigger on a Glock can not be pulled again without cycling the weapon, whereas on a gun that is a double action the trigger can be pulled and the hammer actuated multiple times without cycling the weapon. -[[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]

==Versus modern pistols==

One thing I've noticed about this pistol is that almost everyone loves it, as though it were the best, most versatile handgun ever made. But really, what makes this thing, almost 100 years old now, any better than any modern pistols? Really, modern pistols can fire the same rounds, bigger clips, better design, picatinny rails, etc.--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 21:54, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Familiarity, accuracy, ease of getting parts, feel, simplicity (yes I know there are designs that are simpler, but for what this pistol is, it is simple), many different makes and models of the 1911, modularity, traditionalism. There are many makes and models of the 1911 style that have the same features as many modern "wonder guns". Want more ammo? Get a Para Ord P14, ditto for DA, and DA/SA. Want a 9mm/ 10mm/ etc? there are many types of 1911 platform pistols ranging from .22lr to .44 Magnum. A quote I heard about the 1911 a few years ago is "It's like a '32 Ford Hotrod, its cheap, reliable, powerful, fun, and is easy to make it your own. Just don't think you'll get much mileage out of a tank of gas." Now tell me can you put custom grips, barrels, sights, slides, frames, triggers, hammers, finishes, safeties, slide releases magazines, etc etc etc on a Glock, XD, SIG, Beretta, etc? Maby a few of those, but at what price, and can you do it all? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

: ''Really, modern pistols can fire the same rounds, bigger clips, better design, picatinny rails, etc.''

- Funny, several pistols I can think of that fit that criteria are little more than updated 1911 pistols. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

"bigger clips"
: Fail. I believe you meant Magazines. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 21:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
ya Unless your talkin about a Mauser broomhandle (which you're not) I would prefer if you said magazine instead of clip

::Actually, that's another thing I'm questioning. Really, what is the difference between the detaachable box magazines and clips? I mean, clips hold bullets for easy loading, right? SO wouldn't modern detachable magazines be classified as clips too?--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 20:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Simplest way I can put this - a clip loads a magazine. The magazine is what the gun feeds from - NOT THE CLIP. It just so happens that on some guns, the magazine is affixed to the weapon (the M1 Garand and the Mauser, for example). Thus, users have to use clips to reload them. On, say, a M1911 or an M16, the magazine falls out, thus allowing the user to swap in a new one when needed. A magazine could hold a clip, if so designed...but that particular road is one-way only. --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 20:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

::The "clip vs. magazine" distinction is something that really needs to be clarified, and one of the reasons why I asked for the "general information" section in the first place. Hopefully someone can make a good article there showing the various type of bullet clips and why they should not be confused with magazines. By the way, revolvers when not loaded manually use bullet clips. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

considering that this page is dedicated to the 1911 which is generally made in .45 does anyone else find it somewhat stupid that our military and most police departments are using handguns that have been known for their lack of stopping power. there are better handguns out there that hold a generous amount of .45 ammunition anyway. for example the Nighthawk FLX holds 12-14. the HK USP/HK45, and the Infinity handgun line are double stacked. and even if most .45s hold 7-10 isnt that enough in most scenarios. 7 .45 slugs does the work of at least 20. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Its the same reason that police used the .38 Special for so many years even after the .357 came out. Politics, logistics, ability to handle the round, etc etc... -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

:With regard to caliber, police need rounds that can penetrate car bodies, doors, walls, etc. .45 rounds are not known for penetration. Also, while the .45 round is more effective against soft tissue than 9mm and .40 S&W rounds, anyone who tries to claim that 7 .45 rounds can do the work of 20 9mm or .40 rounds is completely dillusional. Watch ballistic test videos. A .45 slug entering the body does more damage than a 9mm round entering the body. If you try to claim that one .45 wound is more damaging than 2 9mm wounds with any decent grouping than you clearly have no understanding of physics or human anatomy.

But the fact remains with a 9mm you dont want him dead in the half hour it will take for him to bleed out. you want him dead NOW. with the .45 hes going to feel it. he aint gunna get back up. with the 9mm he might just keep firing.
:Depending on shot placement. A 9mm slug to the heart or any of the major arteries surrounding it will cause death within several seconds. The same is true of a shot to most areas of the skull. .45 does have increased lethality over 9mm, but that degree of superiority has been greatly exaggerated.

Yeah but a 9mm can pass through a person and keep going, a .45 doesn't. I would imagine you wouldn't want those two 9mm rounds going through a person and hitting an innocent bystander. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 16:28, 28 March 2011 (CDT)

It all really comes down to preference. Honestly a body shot with any round is not guaranteed to kill or stop anyone. The only thing guaranteed to immediately incapacitate someone is to severing the brain from the rest of the body. Recoil is also a big factor. If you cant shoot it it doesnt matter what you carry. People and police departments have to find the weapon that will work best for them. Personally I like the .45 and I own a 1911. The most important feature on the 1911 for me is its thinness with the single stack mag. Honestly I think my Sig 229 .40 kicks more violently and is harder to shoot than my .45. I know a lot of people who do not like the .45 and much prefer their 9mm because they are better with it. -[[User:Peejn8r|Peejn8r]]

Modern 9mm JHP and .45 ACP JHP in ballestic gel create near equal wounds. I can post reference links if anyone wants them. The whole thing about magazine capacity isn't really a problem as 99% of the time, only three shots are fired at most. Even with police, most of the time, no more than 3 rounds are fired.

Carry what guns suits you best, whether its a .22LR or its a .45 ACP. Once I turn 21, I plan on getting a SIG 1911 with a 4" barrel in .45 ACP but for the time being, I have to stick with my XD40.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 22:01, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

==Variants NOT listed with any film/TV/game appearances==

- I've taken it upon myself to remove several listed variants that had no list of anything that they've appeared in. Guns posted that didn't say they were in anything - Not one movie, TV show episode, video game, nothing. A couple of which I don't think have appeared on anything and seem to have been put up just for the hell of it.

Now I know we have a lot of 1911 variants on the page, but the page is not intended to show/describe ''every'' variant of 1911 ever made, but only those ''that have actually appeared in something'', as quoted by some of the admins. I just find it a bit annoying to have to scroll down the page and see numerous 1911 pistols that have nothing listed under them (Again, with some looking like they were just added for the sake of being there), and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Anyway, clearing said sections out now. If it seems like an unusual or otherwise noteworthy variant, I'll add it to the 'additional variants' section below. Bottom-line, if it ain't actually been in anything, ''don't add it'', no matter how cool it is or whatever. If it has been in something, then next time, don't half-ass - If you're going to bother with the effort of putting it up in the first place, do it 100% and say what it's appeared in. Thanks. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

==Kimber==
in the Kimber Warrior section it is listed as "Warrior II", which is wrong, the Warrior is built to full military specs and never got the "II" desinated saftey system...so it is just a Warrior because kimber only puts the II on the models they put their special saftey on.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==Controversy igniter==
I am fully aware that what I am about to say will probably ignite the greatest firestorm of controversy this site has seen in a while. I have fired several 1911 pistols and found them to be a good, solid design. That said, it doesn’t change the fact that I think this is undoubtedly the most overrated firearm in history. Throughout the entire gun community there is the consensus that this is the absolute greatest thing ever conceived by the mind of man and anyone who says anything different is a blasphemer. Again, I am not saying it is a bad pistol, I just don’t think it is best (I won’t say what my top choice is for fear of causing even more indignation to come my way). Though even if it were the undisputed best pistol design around, I still don’t think it would be so significantly greater than other designs as to warrant being the object of the worship and masturbatory fantasies of every gun enthusiast in the world as it currently is. That’s my two cents, I await the fallout.

:I smell a troll.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 17:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd say he's not because he seems to explain his point. At least his reasoning isn't 'this gun sukzz' [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 17:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

:My main reasoning is that the weapons are predominately single action only, which necessitates that they either be carried condition three (which makes the pistol slow to bring into action), or condition one (which many consider unsafe). The double/single action and double action only systems have become omnipresent in most modern combat pistols for good reason. Additionally, while a generally reliable design, many other pistols have surpassed 1911 models in ruggedness and reliability. Another thing that I find odd is the vast variety of weapons that are claimed to be “1911s.” For instance, I have seen subcompact, double action only, double-column “1911s” in many calibers other than .45acp. At this point the only common feature between these weapons and the original Colt 1911 design are a loose aesthetic resemblance. The internal mechanisms maybe similar as well, but many other pistols share a far greater functional similarity to 1911s yet do not bear the moniker. At what point does a gun cease being a “1911” and become something simply trying to cash in on a famous name sake?

It is human nature to emulate successful designs in the hopes of getting a piece of that pie, especially in the modern business world. Less-refined terms for this behaviour include "jumping on the bandwagon" or "riding a gravy train." It's nothing new now in the firearms industry, what with all the AR-15 variants, Glock knock-offs, and (of course) countless "1911-type" pistols around. What defines a "1911-type" pistol is really matter of personal preference.

I would, however, agree that it's foolish to fetishize a type of firearm or a firearms manufacturer just because of its track record or Public Relations budget. There is no such thing as the "perfect" weapon in the real world--every design involves tradeoffs, and that's even before you include the "human factor." Designs can always be improved. What matters most is what you can use the most effectively in a consistent manner. And if you can't, then you ought to get yourself another weapon or train more.

Speaking of "best pistol ever," I remember how H&K tried to label their 4.6x30mm pistol as "the Ultimate Combat Pistol," but it got unceremoniously cancelled, because of "inadequate ballistics in a handgun format." So much for "Ultimate Combat Pistol"--now it joins the legions of "Useless Cancelled Pistols" that came before it. Perhaps it could have had a chance if it were a machine pistol instead, dubbed the "MP7 UltraComPact," in essence an MP7 PDW in handgun format. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

:What I would like to know is what is it about the 1911 that supposedly makes it the best. I've heard people say it is the greatest pistol ever for more than a decade yet never explain what ''specific'' features or advantages it has that make it so good.

You should head on over to the forum and ask that question: "What makes the M1911 pistol so great compared to everything else, and when does an M1911 stop being one and start being a pistol just pretending to be one?" I'm sure there are more people there who could answer your questions better than what you could get here. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

What makes the 1911 the "best"? There are many reasons for the following it has. I am of course referring to the original 1911A1 model, not the double stack nor double action variants. For one, the single action trigger is extremely easy to train with and use by a lot of people. Second, it has redundant safety systems in place. Even with the manual safety off, it will not fire unless the grip safety is fully pressed, though this safety system is seen by a few as a con of the design. Third, it utilized a single stack design. That coupled with the angle of the grip is a very comfortable for a majority of the people. The degree of the grip angle was chosen because, for a lot of people, it is a natural point meaning that one could close ones eyes and bring the pistol up and have it pointing directly at the target. Fourth, it fired the .45 ACP. The .45ACP is a proven manstopper especially when compared to the other rounds utilized at the time of its adoption and until the development of reliable hollow point designs. Lastly, I would argue that compared to many other designs, such as the Mauser C96, Luger,etc..., the 1911 was easily field strip as the pieces of the pistol were designed to aid in the stripping down of the firearm. Compared to todays plethora of firearms, the 1911 is no longer the only pistol to chamber effective rounds or reliability. Why is it still popular then? Because some people still favor the 1911 design. Overrated, I don't think so. There is a reason why it is still chosen over other designs. Is it the end-all-be-all of pistol design? No, I would say it isn't. Anyway, from everything I've read, personal experience, and research that is what I have come up with. [[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 21:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Everything you have described establishes that the gun is a good design, perhaps the best gun around when it first came out, but does not explain it's enduring following. The grip may be confortable for many people, but that is far too subjective to explain why so many people (with so many different hand sizes) still favor this gun. It's single stack magazine make it a confortable target and practical concealed carry weapon, but the limited capacity it offers can be a death trap in a combat weapon (which many still claim the 1911 is the quintessential example of). The .45 ACP is a great round against soft targets, but does not offer very good penetration or long distance acuracy. And with the isistance on reliable "Soldier Proof" weapons in most of today's militaries, many modern pistols are more reliable and easier to strip than the original 1911s. I don't deny that the 1911 was most likely the best pistol in the world when it came out and for a few decades after, but I don't think it still warrents that praise anymore, yet almost every gun Television show, magazine, website, etc. seems to constantly proclaim its supremacy.

To answer your first point. The single stack, thin handgrip is easily usable by people of differing handtypes. You say its subjective but isn't how something feels in someones hand subjective? For example, the M9/Beretta 92FS has a thick grip. Bigger hands have no problem with the grip but smaller hands do. The slim 1911 grip can be used by big hands or little hands. The grip angle is something else that many people find comfortable. You second point that you made was the single stack "death trap". You say that the single stack is a liability. But capacity isn't everything. 7+ rounds of .45 ACP is good. The .45ACP has a well known reputation for one shot stops. The 9mm of the Beretta 92 or Glock 17 does not have that reputation. As for the .45ACP, it is not meant to penetrate body armor, neither is the standard 9mm, but it is accurate over long distances. There are very few pistol rounds that are meant to penetrate body armor of vehicle armor, which is what I think that you are getting at. If you draw a pistol in a combat zone, you are already in deep trouble or in a position where a high capacity is not needed, i.e. MP's. Anyway, a pistol is not meant to be accurate at long distances so the point is moot. As for the "Soldier Proof" weapons, that is just a cheap way out of training soldiers correctly, as they did with the A2 model of the M16. A milspec 1911 is just as reliable as newer designs. One such argument is that the 1911 was only tested for 6000 rounds with no failure before cleaning while Glock for example is tested at 30,000 rounds. What soldier won't clean his sidearm after 6000 rounds? What battle involves firing 6000 rounds out of a pistol? If you can't see why the 1911 design is praised and still being used then I can't help any further. The 1911 design has many good points that apparently many people still find better than other designs, and many still find the 1911 a proven and effective design.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 22:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Apparently I wasn't clear when I rebutted you last time. The single stack is confortable for people with small hands yes. However, people with larger hands, and even some small handed people, have no problem with thicker grips and so the capacity limiting single stack serves no purpose. The grip angle is a completely subjective feature and so it is imposible to argue that one style is better than another. What matters more is simply what one is used to. You are right that 7-9 rounds of ammunition and 6000 rounds before cleaning is more than adequate for most applications, however my point wasn't that the 1911 is bad (it is a good weapon) but simply that there are better guns out their. 7 or 8 rounds may be enough for most encounters, but having 12-17 rounds and being able to fire 30,000+ rounds before cleaning is an advantage, whether or not one will utalize those features often. Also, when I referenced penetration I had things like doors, walls, and car bodies in mind, not armor. The .38 Super cartridge was specifically developed because the .45 could not penetrate car bodies effectively. Your previous post all focuses on arguing that the 1911 is an ''adequate'' combat pistol which I completely agree with. My whole point is that the features you mentioned ''do not make it the best pistol around.'' When I first began this conversation I stated that the 1911 is not a bad gun, simply that with all the pistol designs that have emerged in the past century it is no longer the greatest pistol in the world, yet nearly everyone in the gun community (yourself clearly included) still claim it is for no other reason than people like its grip (which is subjective), its caliber (which is used in many much modern modern firearms), and its history (which can easily make it a favorite gun but can not be used as justification for it being the best).

::'''"You are right that 7-9 rounds of ammunition and 6000 rounds before cleaning is more than adequate for most applications"'''

::"Before cleaning"? What do you think; that it will malfunction on the 6001st round if you don't clean it? The gun is as dirty as it is going to get after a few hundred rounds. When you've fired a gun 6000 times in a row without cleaning and with no malfunctions, that means that when the gun finally does malfunction it won't be because it is dirty; it will most likely continue to function properly until something breaks.

::'''"but having 12-17 rounds and being able to fire 30,000+ rounds before cleaning is an advantage, whether or not one will utalize those features often."'''

::Just so you know, the M1911 didn't malfunction on the 6000th round. It didn't malfunction at all. They stopped after 6000 rounds because that is how many rounds they had decided beforehand would be adequate for a test. Any gun that can fire 6000 rounds without malfunctioning can most likely fire indefinitely without malfunctioning, until something breaks. And keep in mind that the M1911 did this 100 years ago, being built out of the relatively poor grades of steel of the day (steel was greatly improved after WWII, even though no U.S. military M1911 or M1911A1 ever got to take advantage of it, because none were bought after WWII). Also, those things you mentioned are ''potential'' advantages. A potential advantage that isn't used at all is not an actual advantage, obviously.

::30,000 rounds is overkill for a test. Most people will never fire anywhere near that many rounds through their handgun (especially without cleaning), and even if they did, who would want to trust their life to a gun that has 30,000 rounds worth of wear and tear on it? --[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 13:18, 17 December 2011 (CST)

You were arguing the design flaws but it is the design that is one of the big reasons it has such a following. Since you are arguing one view against the other. Why a lot of people think that it is the best. The design is one reason, history is another, the round it fires is yet another reason. I actually don't think it is the best I was merely stating the reasons that it is popular and why people say it is the best. I like the Beretta 92fs for its grip and certain design attributes and the Glock 21sf for different reasons. Would I object to using the 1911 in combat. No. Would I use the Beretta 92fs in combat with FMJ ammo? Not if I didn't have to. With HP ammo, I wouldn't hesitate to use the Beretta. But even your view of other designs being better is subjective. If a pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc...is reliable and fires a moderately effective round then it is a good design. What makes it the best is subjective as far as it goes. What one pistol may be best at is what makes it worst at something else. There is no way to objectively define the "best" just what is better than something else.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 00:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree. I don't have any gun in mind that I think is indisputably better than all others. The features I pointed out I did so to demonstrate that in certain aspects the 1911 is inferior to other disigns, not that said other designs are the perfect weapon. Every design is a give and take of different features. Because of this, my main complaint was a pervaisive belief that the 1911 is unquestioningly the greatest gun ever (I have heard that phrase Verbatim in many issues of Guns & Ammo). Is it better in some aspects than double-collumn, double-action 9mm pistols? Yes. Is it better across the board? Absolutly not. I apologize if at any point I have come across as confrontational, it is just that I have heard so many people assert the 1911's complete supremacy so many times that it has really gotten on my nerves and I wanted to know what others thought.

Google "1911"...then google any other gun...now tell me which one has the most varieties...which one has the most after market parts and pieces for the specialist. Which one has the most surplus parts. Its so popular and so famous because if you wanted to you could make one look like no other one or you could make it look like that one in your favorite movie. Not only that but all the diffrent calibers from 45cal to the awesome and unbeatable 10mm. Plus they are sexy as hell. To sum up you can basically have a beautiful, functional, all steel combat pistol in your choice of caliber and its going to feel like a dream in your hands.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 00:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

:The madness of crowds surely knows few bounds--just look at how the various bottled water companies manage to make a killing selling what is essentially tap water, because people will do often do things just because enough other people tell them it's a good idea. Then again, I suppose the "cult following" that some pistol-types have over others is due in part to the following facts:

:*Pistols are rarely if ever primary combat weapons anymore, with the exception of law enforcement.
:*Few people who routinely carry pistols have to regularly use them in gun battles against opponents who are earnestly trying to kill them.

:Therefore there aren't many occasions for most pistol-carriers to test their assumptions in the most revealing field of all--life-or-death situations. So depending on your circumstances you can go a lifetime without ever putting the hype in the harsh light of real return-fire. I'd bet on the M1911-type (the "pure" single-stack .45 ACP M1911s) pistols selling so much mostly because of its hype and history, and that it is, at its heart, a serviceable (though hardly optimal) weapon. Given how many clones there are, however, I really must wonder what would have happened had Colt become the sole copyright holder for this pistol type--would we see more innovation that way, or just countless clones of some other pistol type? Perhaps a more revealing, specific question would be "How does the M1911 platform compare to the Glock platform or CZ-75 platform?" That could work because all three are successful pistol types offered in multiple calibers, including 9x19mm, .45 ACP, and 10mm Auto.

:Bottom line? The "pure" M1911 works, but we can certainly do better. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

::Exactly

Ok, well answer me this then. Why if the 1911 is all hype and legend does MEUSOC still issue 1911s? Why does Delta give out a stipend to have an operator buy his own custom 1911? Why does the FBI HRT use 1911s? and LAPD SWAT? and so many other groups that use pistols? The reasons the wonder 9s came into popularity are lower recoil (marginal), size (marginal) higher capacity (less training in marksmanship), weight (long since gone by the wayside), to match ammo with other NATO countries (Military), and hype/ cool factor (civilian). The 1911 has served admirably (in one capacity or another) with few major changes to the platform for almost 100 years. The Beretta, Glock, CZ-75, etc. have been redesigned and "improved" since they came out just to try and match the 1911s in popularity, reliability, etc.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 17:30, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

:Sure thing. How many of these operators you mentioned fulfill the conditions I mentioned above, namely that they regularly use pistols as their primary combat weapons instead of SMGs/PDWs/Rifles and often engage in gunfights with earnest, aware opponents? And other combat platforms for the .45 ACP won out, such as the Mk. 23 SOCOM pistol which won out over Colt's version. The "improved" Beretta, Glock, CZ-75 you mentioned have done so to fit consumer demand and market competition, but national armed forces aren't that commercial and competitive most of the time because of how many contracts and vested interests are running the show. I simply said that the "Pure" M1911 platform works when used, but it can be improved, otherwise the Mk.23 SOCOM wouldn't have won the OHWS program. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 02:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

::A lot of Special Forces don't even use the Mk. 23 due to its bulky and awkward size. Many Navy SEALs opt to use 9mm SIG-Sauer Pistols

H&K won the competition because they strictly adhered to all of the requirements (some of which were asinine), and they put in the best bid. When USSOCOM received the Mk. 23 they got exactly what they asked for but not what they had actually wanted. The SEALS who used it complained about how it was too big, heavy, and its cons outweighed its pros. They tried to pawn them off on the ARMY but no one there would touch them, so most of them went back to H&K. As with all things military, big brass does not listen to the guys who actually have to use the equipment until its too late.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 06:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I would like to toss my thoughts into the mix. Being a Brit getting a hold of a real firearm is harder than getting away with stealing the Popes hat, but I am an avid airsofter and I have held and fired many different types of airsoft pistols ranging from HK USPs, to Glocks, to Berettas, to SIGs. But I still go back to my 1911s to which I have 2 (I'm awaiting delivery of a third). I don't have tiny hands but I don't have big bear hands and the 1911 design feels right in my hands. I use a weaver stance and the 1911 is the best pistol for hand placement in that stance, I had an issue with the Beretta that sometimes my thumb could slip onto the slide locking mechinism and prevent slide lock. With Glocks they felt too top heavy for me, maybe it's how the airsoft Glocks are designed and it's not like that on the Real steel. I used a SIG for quite a while as that felt pretty good, but as soon as I picked up a 1911 I needed one. After a little practice I can draw, remove the safety and bring the pistol up to the target in a little under 2 seconds. Why do I like the 1911 so much? It's all about the placement, the safety is right by your thumb so when you draw it you can use one motion to bring the pistol up and deactivate the safety. I found the Beretta to be a bit of a fumbling job deactivating the safety mid draw. Why the 1911 design is still praised isn't down to some cult following, it's down to simple ergonomics, it looks great, the functionality is great, the placement of everything on the pistol is perfect. I saw someone post that they would rather be able to fire 30,000 shots and not have to clean their pistol rather than 6000. I don't know about you but if I only fired off one shot from my pistol in a battle I would still clean it to make sure nothing is going to cause a problem next time. Better to be safe than sorry. --[[User:Cool-breeze|Cool-breeze]] 17:19, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I think it depends by what you define as 'best', and what you need the gun for. In my mind, if you want an M1911 variant, get a Para-Ordnance LDA. Like the P14.45, but double action. If you want a cheap, reliable, accurate semi-auto, do what everybody else does, get a Glock 17 and stop moaning. Your moaning about not people liking 7-round magazines (we've moved on to higher-capacity ones-in my mind, if armies must use M1911 variants, use Para-Ordnance's. 7 or 8 rounds plus one in the chamber is just awful, and you'll run out quickly.) is making the world of semi-auto's remain stuck in the 20th century. Embrace the future! With pistols like the Caracal, FN Herstal Five-seveN, and many other great ones, it's not half bad.

I just Google Imaged the 1911 & Beretta 92, with the former receiving 80.8 million results, and the latter receiving 1.46 million results. [[User:Sangheili1155|Sangheili1155]] 16:08, 5 June 2012 (CDT)

== Ballester-Molina ==

The Ballester-Molina should not be included in the 1911 page. It's not a 1911, only the mags and barrel interchange. Internally it's based on the Star Model A, which has significant differences from the 1911 in terms of lockwork. Unless anyone objects I'm going to create a separate page for it. - [[User:Nyles|Nyles]]

== Link share ==

Hello there,

This is a question for the webmaster/admin here at www.imfdb.org.

Can I use part of the information from this blog post right above if I give a link back to your site?

Thanks,
Daniel

== Dreamworks Animation ==

When are you guys going to add animated films from Dreamworks like Monsters vs. Aliens and Megamind, because they have guns used by police and the military.

Just because there are guns in it doesn't mean it gets a page here. Are they recognisable as real guns, or are they stylised ones? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 09:58, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

They are real guns in the animated films, like in Monsters vs Aliens, the soldiers used some M16 rifles to shoot at the alien, and in Megamind, the police uses rifles and pistols on aiming the villain, who is walking.

OK, I'm going to assume that you haven't read the [[Rules, Standards and Principles]] page, most notably [[Rules, Standards and Principles#Anime: Rules & Restrictions|this section]]. Read that, then check back. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 19:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

But wait, why do we have video game pages then? Firearms in them barely resemble real ones --[[User:Jackbel|Jackbel]] 19:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok sorry, no big deal, lets not add cartoons yet, because they have to wait.

:@Jackbel. Because in video games you can clearly identify the guns, and no the good ones do not just 'barely resemble real ones.' As a video game person you should know this, unless Australia has weird rules about depicting guns in video games. The reason cartoons are generally not allowed is because unlike anime, most cartoons have a generic silouette of a 'gun' while most animes have enough detail to be able to determine what guns was used. Think [[Ghost in the Shell]] or [[Cowboy Bebop]].--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 13:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

==.45 Blanks==

I've read a lot here that .45 blanks used to be unreliable. I was wondering when they started to become a bit more reliable and why they were unreliable? I can't find that anywhere.

I thought it wasn't really the blanks being unreliable so much as it just being easier to blank-convert a 9mm than a .45. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

.45 pistols require more recoil force to cycle their actions than 9mms. Since blank rounds have virtually no recoil, .45s are much harder to convert to use blanks.

Ah right. Is there some new way of converting them now because I've started to notice that in recent years there have been a lot of films using .45 ACP versions of pistols that are also chambered in 9mm. Die Hard 4.0 for example, McClane as a P220 in .45 ACP. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
:Is it explicitly stated that the prop gun was chambered in .45? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 21:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
::''"Is it explicitly stated that the prop gun was chambered in .45"'' We have a pic of the actual screen used gun and is listed as .45 ACP. I think all newer P220s are chambered in .45, only some of the older ones were chambered in 9mm and .38 Super. Also the .45 being unreliable with blanks. I don't think it encompassed all .45 chambered pistols. I think it was only in the 1911 platform. With the 9mm being a much smaller blank and having the large ejection port made for the .45 it was easier to eject them.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 22:09, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:SIGP220R LiveFreeDieHard.jpg|thumb|none|500px|SIG-Sauer P220R - .45 ACP. This is the screen used gun in the film and was carried and fired by ''[[Bruce Willis]]''.]]
::: Just checking. Especially after the whole issue with the Glocks. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Long (and detailed!)story short. For a 1911 to fire blanks reliably you must first drill and tap the barrel for a blank adapter, then taper the barrel hood, then grind off the locking lugs, and remove the barrel linkage. Once that is done, the testing for a reliable adapter and blank combo ensues (you may or may not need to enlarge the ejection port too). I figure its pretty much the same with other pistols...-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a very complex process. I'm assuming if you do that well though the 1911 will cycle blanks as well as 9mm blanks. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 01:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I read an article in a gun magazine a few years back about blanks and it said that it comes down to the casings used. According to the article, blanks are made from rifle brass because it has to be long enough to be crimped and still be long enough to be the length of a real cartridge. The problem with .45 acp ammo is that until recently there was no rifle brass in .45 diameter that could be used for blanks. I remember reading back when "Miami Vice" was on that Timothy La France had brass custom manufactured in .45 for blanks. -- David, 3 December 2010 (well, its the 3rd where I live)

==Laseraim Series III?==

So what is this thing?
[[Image:LaserAimSeriesIIIPistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|LaserAim Series III Pistol - .45 ACP]]
It looks more like a CZ derivative than a 1911 derivative to me... Alot like a mashup of CZ, S&W, Sig, STI, etc..-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 06:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
:It draws a little from the S&W series (namely the safety) and CZ-75 (in terms of grip shape), but technically it is a M1911 derivative, they just didn't make many of them.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 07:15, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Used to see these in tv shows during the late 80s. the later model was the first pistol I ever saw with an integral accessory rail on the dust cover, although that was in a catalog. David. 11 December 2010
:::Dust cover? What are you talking about? [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]]
I don't know what else to call it, it is the part of the frame extending in front of the trigger guard. I have seen it, in print referred to as a dust cover. David.

::THIS Laseraim was photographed for the [[Haunted (2002)]] page since it was used in an episode. If you guys read the Haunted (2002) page, for which this IMAGE was originally shot for, the description says: '''Laser Aim was yet another manufacturer who built ported .45 ACP pistol based on the original M1911 design, but incorporating elements of the BHP and the CZ-75 into a new design. The unique feature of the Laser Aim was a hole cut out of the trigger guard ahead of the trigger to mount a laser. Since the production ended for this pistol, smaller lasers with better battery life have been invented. By the late 1990s LaserAim had gone out of business and had sold their patents to AMT. ''' Hope this sheds some light on the piece. It is a new weapon influenced purportedly by M1911, BHP and CZ designs. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]]

Ah, that explains it. Could have saved myself about 2 hrs of google searching if I'd looked up the image uses hah.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

== MEU(SOC) Pistol... ==
...has been given a new designation, ''M45''. [http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/24/m45-close-quarters-combat-pistol/] [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 02:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

We also need a better image for it, but I can't find one I can't be sure isn't an Airsoft gun. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 19:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The big problem is there is no single model that is the M45/ MEUSOC Pistol. The "M-45s" in service are a mix and match of Kimbers, Springfields, Colts, etc. The "M-45" is a set of specs that any pistols built for MEUSOC have to comply with. There are SOME retrofitted M1911A1 pistols that were done by USMC Armorers at Quantico, but they are going to be near impossible to differentiate from the M1911A1 they were built from.
Here's a good thread from AR15.com (dear lord its hard to say that haha) about the M-45 MEUSOC pistol variants.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=49&t=86667
-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

== More proof of the M1911's greatness ==

According to the news, the M1911 is now the official state gun of Utah! This is kind of cool, since John Browning lived in Utah, and it's just in time for the great .45's centennial anniversary. [[Special:Contributions/74.192.58.206|74.192.58.206]] 21:16, 19 March 2011 (CDT)

== Happy 100th Anniversary to the Colt M1911! ==

Happy 100 years of service M1911! Thank you for providing some of the most nastiest knockdown power available to the armed forces and for providing an eternal name of badassery in motion pictures!

Here's looking forward to 100 years more! --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 15:40, 29 March 2011 (CDT)

My favorite semi-auto is the 1911. I've had affairs with others but I always come back to a good ole Colt .45. I didn't understand why until I did some research and figured out we shared a birthday. Still saving for an anniversary model... [[User:USGIMar29|USGIMar29]] 19:40, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

==9mm 1911s==
I'm not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask but could anyone recommend some good 9mm 1911s? I live in Australia and the maximum calibre you can get without doing competition shooting is .38 or 9mm rounds. --[[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 07:07, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

Kind of late, but if you're still there GunEnthusiast, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is a Para-Ordnance P18-9, otherwise known as Hitman's gun (well, in the film.). The reason 9mm M1911 variants are so far and few between and rare is that .45 ACP was invented for the gun, and despite no living American being old enough to say they were born before it's creation, most Americans believe a 9mm M1911 is a sin, and that the ghost of John Moses Browning will come and haunt it's makers and buyers. I think. Anyway, the fact the P18-9 is Canadian explains it. No one complete American fully understands Canada. Alasdair.

== Naming the MEU(SOC) pistol ==

On M1911's page (and correspondingly on pages that list the weapon) it is named "M-45 MEUSOC":

1) While calling it "M-45" wouldn't be incorrect, it should be changed to "M45" in line with other officially adopted names on IMFDB;

2) Using "MEUSOC" in conjunction with "M45" is incorrect. It is either "MEU(SOC) Pistol" or "M45 Close Quarters Battle Pistol" / "M45 Close Quarters Combat Pistol".

--[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:46, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:Well, then go change it. ^3^ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:59, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

::Will be done right now. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:17, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::I think they are the same pistol. I remember seeing a story about how the MEU(SOC) was reclassified as the M45 Close Quarters Combat Pistol at some point, and have also seen documents that use the term M45 MEUSOC (no brackets). What do you think the differences are between the two? I think there is some confusing as there have been various different versions of the MEU(SOC) pistol built from various off the shelf parts. There are at least 5 versions that I know of, and main fetures are as follows. 1: original version with unflared ejection port and Springfield Armoury logo behind the ejection port. 2: newer slide with flared ejection port and logo in front of the ejection port. 3: front slide serrations. 4: wide slide serrations and Novak sights, with grip safety with "bumb" at the bottom. 5: 4th version with skeleton hammer rather than Commander type hammer. You also have the ICQB which is a Kimber made pistol with a railed frame. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:26, 3 October 2011 (CDT)
::::Sorry, just realised I totally misread your original post. Though you were saying that the MEU(SOC) and M45 were different pistols. However, the term M45 MEUSOC (without brackets) is also correct. [https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=df43476377acd40c0f409faa2ceffc9d&_cview=1] --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 07:52, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::::Notice the presence of comma between M-45 and MEUSOC. That would indicate the listing of different designations for the weapon. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 09:27, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::::::I really don't think the comma means that, but to satisfy you, here [http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2010/03-March/19-Mar-2010/FBO-02095403.htm]. To be fair though, I have seen official documents that refer to the M45 being the MEUSOC, Close Quarters Battle or Close Quarters Combat pistol. I think this whole conversation is irrelevant however, as on looking into it, I think the M45 pistol and the MEU(SOC) pistol listed on this page are different weapons, with the M45 being a commercial of the shelf pistol made by either Colt, Sprinfield Armoury or Karl Lippard Designs. This article from the [http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/marine-marsoc-pistol-45cal-012511w/ Marine Corps Times] seems to back this up (this time referring to it as the Close Quarter Battle Pistol) stating that the M45 is modelled on the MEU(SOC) but will be a COTS pistol, which is currently being evaluated. For the sake of simplicity, I think the pistol on this page should just be called the MEU(SOC). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:19, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::::::MEUSCOC. Wonder what the first "C" stands for?
:::::::It would have been so much simpler if there was website that chronicles the history of MEU(SOC) pistol. Every variant along with pictures and how they were designated (to distinguish them)... Because currently sources are conflicting. In USMC's [http://www.quantico.usmc.mil/ MCB Quantico] section there is an article "[http://www.quantico.usmc.mil/Sentry/storyview.aspx?SID=4913 The Devil Dogs’ workshop]". There it says M45 Close Quarters Battle Pistol is being built by local armorers. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:50, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

One more issue: sources vary on the year of adoption. Some say 1985[http://www.americanspecialops.com/special-ops-weapons/meusoc-pistol.php][http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm], other say 1986[http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/marinefacts/blsoc.htm][http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=16][http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meusoc.htm]. Maybe change the part to "since the mid-1980s"? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:53, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

:Done. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:08, 13 October 2011 (CDT)

== A Location of Procuring ==
Does anyone know where you can get one of these great airsoft movie-1911 replicas namly the stunning and slender long-slide?

[[Image:WA490 4 mark.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Long Slide Jim Hoag M1911A1 replica]]

-[[User:GladeTaylor]]

The image has a watermark from [http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/ ehobbyasia.com] on it, so I'd suggest looking there. The exact pistol is [http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/western-arms-colt-hoag-bianchi-special-gbb-pistol.html here.] [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:12, 14 December 2011 (CST)

== Organization. ==

Any objections to alphabetizing this page? I think it would make a bit more sense... --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 21:38, 6 December 2011 (CST)
:No don't do that. The M1911 and M1911A1 go first. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 21:52, 6 December 2011 (CST)
::Fair enough, I actually agree with that. But what about the less common ones. Seems weird to Kimber, Strayer, Inifinity, Detonics, Springfield, etc... What if we keep the most common ones at the top (M1911 & M1911A1) and put the rest in order? --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 21:58, 6 December 2011 (CST)

== Difference between Kimber and Colt. ==

In several medias, I discovered that Colt M1911 can sometimes be referred as the Kimber. Why is it so since the weapon manufacturer is Colt? And is there any difference in the mechanism of gun between the both companies? --[[User:S9771773G|S9771773G]] 21:31, 28 December 2011 (CST)

those medias are just being ignorant with their terminology. Colt makes 1911's and kimber makes 1911's...two diffrent companies that happen to make the same model. Any true diffrences in them will mostly be cosmetic in nature. The biggest diffrence between colt and kimber is that Kimber say Yonkers on it and colt say Hartford. Most people think that colt was the first and only maker of the 1911 and call all 1911's colts no matter of maker...for example someone saying "I own a colt 1911 made by springfield"...well no sir you have a Springfield 1911-A1 and colt has nothing to do with it.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 10:21, 29 December 2011 (CST)

== Airsoft Colt's grips. ==

Maybe it's kinda stupid,but I was wondering,could I install some custom or just another grips on my.. hahaha,Marui's Colt Government spring pistol? ;)
That thought came to me,cause I realised,that mine is 1:1 copy of the real one,so.. maybe,new grips would be possible to install. [[User:Littlesoldier1|Littlesoldier1]] 16:17, 22 January 2012 (CST)
: Not sure about the springer, but you can put them on the GBB pistol. Makes the gun much lighter though, as the airsoft grips have metal weights inside them. Seems a bit of a waste doing it on a springer though, the grips would probably be worth more than the gun. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:34, 22 January 2012 (CST)

Yeah,agreed about the price.Thanks for a useful answer.:) [[User:Littlesoldier1|Littlesoldier1]] 16:41, 22 January 2012 (CST)

== When to add here Vs own page ==

What makes the decision between a 1911 variant being including on this page versus having its own page? With this page getting so large seems like some of these guns could have their own page. The [[Star Model B]] has its own page, for example, while the [[Para-Ordnance LDA]] is part of the M1911 page. How is that decision made? --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 19:13, 1 March 2012 (CST)

:The Star B while similar on the exterior, internally it isn't. From the Star Model B talk page ''First, these pistols had no automated grip safety, and no detachable backstrap/mainspring housing. Second, Star pistols had simplified trigger/sear design with single trigger link, and pivoting trigger. Third, external safety swiths locked the hammer, not the sear. Fourth, Star pistols featured exetrnal extractors. Fifth, as noted above, Star A Super and B Super also had different barrel locking/unlocking.'' The page is getting a bit big. They could be split per manufacturer. Colt would stay on this page I guess. Kimber, Para, Springfield etc getting their own. The M16 rifle page is also getting too big, it often kicks me out of it. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 19:25, 1 March 2012 (CST)

::That makes sense! Yea I've got a pretty good connection here but when it takes over a minute for a page to load, time to split them up... I like your idea of doing them by manufacturer and we can always have a '''See Also''' at the bottom. --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 19:31, 1 March 2012 (CST)
:::Maybe make thread on it in the forums. Most probably won't go for it though. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 21:02, 1 March 2012 (CST)
Any further thoughts on this topic??? --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 14:04, 14 June 2012 (CDT)

== British M1911 ==

I understand a series of M1911's were modified to fire .455 Webley Auto rounds. Can anyone give more information about this? Like is it suppressor adaptable? Who used it? Etc, etc.
:It was mainly used by the Royal Navy (although imagine the Army got hold of a few) and 11,000 were made from 1915 to 1916. I doubt a standard pistol can take a suppressor as it was a WWI service pistol so had no need for one but imagine it could be threaded for one, which I would not recommend as it is a relatively valuable pistol you would be messing with. I think the mags are pretty pricey as well, as they are not standard .45 ones as the .455 Webley Auto Mk I was slightly longer than the .45 ACP. An interesting fact about this pistol (to me anyway) is that it can be legally owned in the UK due to the fact that it was made before 1919 and uses a cartridge that is deemed as not readily available. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:56, 9 March 2012 (CST)

== Colt Super 38 Full Auto Machine Pistol ==
[[File:1911machinepistol.jpg|thumb|none|400px|Factory Full Auto Conversion]]

== Longslides ==

What is the point of such a long barrel? I mean, how does increasing its length affect the weapon's capabilities? - [[User: 2wingo]]

Longer sight radius (more accurate sight picture), (slightly) higher velocity, more weight at the front end (reducing recoil).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] ([[User talk:Ranger01|talk]]) 23:58, 17 December 2012 (EST)

The Walking Dead - Season 3

2012-10-18T02:34:45Z

Ranger01: /* M4A1 */

{{Ongoing}}

[[Image:WalkingDeadS3.jpg|thumb|right|300px|''The Walking Dead - Season 3'' (2012-2013)]]

'''The following weapons appear in Season 3 of the television series ''[[The Walking Dead]]'':'''

__TOC__ 

=Revolvers=
==Colt Python==
Deputy Rick Grimes ([[Andrew Lincoln]]) continues to carry a six-inch barreled [[Colt Python]] .357 Magnum revolver as his duty sidearm in Season 3.
[[Image:Python6in.jpg|thumb|400px|none|Colt Python with 6" Barrel - .357 Magnum]]
[[File:TWDS3E01_04.jpg|thumb|none|600px|The Python is seen in the holster of Deputy Rick Grimes ([[Andrew Lincoln]]) in "Seed" (S3E01).]]

==Colt Detective Special==
Lori Grimes ([[Sarah Wayne Callies]]) is seen using a [[Colt Detective Special]].
[[Image:Colt Detective Special.jpg|thumb|none|300px|Colt Detective Special 1st Gen - .38 Special]]
[[Image:Walking_Dead_Season_3_Lori_304.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Production image of Lori with the Colt.]]
[[File:TWDS3E01_79.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Lori Grimes ([[Sarah Wayne Callies]]) is seen using the Colt DS in "Seed" (S3E01).]]

=Pistols=
==Glock 17==
A [[Glock 17]] was one of the sidearms used by Deputy Rick Grimes ([[Andrew Lincoln]]) in Season 3. He is seen using it with an improvised suppressor in "Seed" (S3E01).
[[Image:Glock173rdGen.jpg|thumb|none|300px|A Generation 3 Glock 17 - 9x19mm]]
[[File:TWDS3E01_03.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Deputy Rick Grimes ([[Andrew Lincoln]]) holds the Glock fitted with a suppressor in "Seed" (S3E01).]]
[[Image:Walkingdead4.jpeg|thumb|none|500px|Production image of Rick with suppressed Glock. It appears that the suppressor has been improvised from MAGlite flashlight.]]

==Beretta 92FS==
The [[Beretta 92FS]] is the weapon seen carried by Carl Grimes ([[Chandler Riggs]]) in Season 3. He is seen using it with an improvised suppressor in "Seed" (S3E01).
[[Image:BerettaM92FS.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Beretta 92FS - 9x19mm]]
[[File:TWDS3E01_06.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Carl Grimes ([[Chandler Riggs]]) is seen using the Beretta with a suppressor in "Seed" (S3E01).]]

==SIG-Sauer P226==
[[Image:SigP226.jpg|thumb|none|300px|SIG-Sauer P226 - 9x19mm.]]
[[File:TWDS3E01_77.jpg|thumb|none|600px| is seen using the SIG in "Seed" (S3E01).]]

==Smith & Wesson 3913 "Ladysmith"==
T-Dog ([[IronE Singleton]]) is seen with Andrea's [[Smith & Wesson 3913#Smith & Wesson 3913 "Ladysmith"|Smith & Wesson 3913 "Ladysmith"]].
[[Image:S&W Model 3913.jpg|thumb|none|300px|Smith & Wesson 3913 "Ladysmith" - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:Iron-e-singleton-t-dog-walking-dead-sick-season-3-amc.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Production image of T-dog with the gun in Prison Riot Gear.]]

==Vektor CP1==
[[File:TWDS3E01_76.jpg|thumb|none|600px| is seen using the Vektor in "Seed" (S3E01).]]

=Rifles=

==Ruger M77 Hawkeye==
A [[Ruger M77 |Ruger M77 Hawkeye]] with a scope continues to be one of the weapons carried by Grimes.
[[Image:Rugerm77hawky.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Ruger M77 Hawkeye rifle with scope - .270 Winchester]]
[[File:TWDS3E01_08.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Deputy Rick Grimes ([[Andrew Lincoln]]) has the rifle slung over his shoulder in "Seed" (S3E01).]]

=Assault Rifles=
==M4A1==
[[M4A1]] rifles are seen used by several of the survivors in Season 3. Since the group didn't have these rifles at the end of Season 2, it is likely they acquired them in the interim between Season 2's end and the beginning of Season 3, a gap of several months.
[[Image:ColtM4.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt M4A1 Carbine with M68 Aimpoint reflex optic and Knight's Armament RAS railed handguard and vertical forward grip - 5.56x45mm]]
[[File:TWDS3E01_12.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Hershel Green ([[Scott Wilson]]) fires the M4A1 in "Seed" (S3E01). Note the Aimpoint on his rifle is mounted backwards.]]

==WASR-10 UF==
A [[AK-47#Romanian_WASR|WASR-10 UF]] is seen fired by Carol Peletier ([[Melissa McBride]]) from a prison watchtower in "Seed" (S3E01). Like the M4 above, this rifle was most likely found in between Seasons 2 and 3, as the group was on the move for several months scavenging.
[[File:1romakm47gpwasr10uf1501.jpg|thumb|450px|none|WASR-10 UF - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:TWDS3E01 82.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Carol Peletier ([[Melissa McBride]]) fires the rifle from a watchtower in "Seed" (S3E01).]]

=Other Weapons=
==Horton Scout Crossbow==
A Horton Scout HD 125 Crossbow is used by Daryl Dixon ([[Norman Reedus]]) as his weapon of choice.
[[Image:P3942065p275w.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Horton Scout HD 125]]
[[Image:Norman-reedus-daryl-walking-dead-sick-season-3-amc.jpg|none|thumb|600px|Daryl with his crossbow inside the Prison]]

[[Category:Television]]
[[Category:Zombie]]
[[Category:Horror]]
[[Category:Post Apocalyptic]]

Talk:Winchester Model 1887

2012-08-08T13:36:38Z

Ranger01: /* What's the proper way to hold this shotgun while firing? */

== Number of Rounds it can chamber ==--[[User:JonnyCordite|JonnyCordite]] 08:28, 8 August 2012 (CDT)

Is it possible to have one in the chamber when reloading? Doesn't the way it reload mean that if one is put into the chamber while reloading it will just grab one from the mag tube and jam?--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 03:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
:That's a mistake made in the reload in MW2, in real life you can load one in the chamber (making it 6 shots total), but you have to hold down the lifter as you close the action so a jam won't happen. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

:It is actually possible to chamber 7 rounds. With 5 in the magazine and 1 in the ramp and 1 in the tube. And I believe it will not jam with the hammer half cocked - [[User:JonnyCordite|JonnyCordite]] 23:25, 8 August 2012 (EST)

== What's the point of cutting away the trigger guard? ==

Is there some kind of advantage to it? For the life in me I can't think of any reason for it. [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]] 18:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of is the Fitz technique; the fact that the guard isn't there allows you to get to the trigger faster. -SasquatchJim.

To my knowledge it's normally most prominantly seen with the enlarged loop to ease with 'flip cocking' to save you fumbling your index finger with the trigger guard after spinning with the other 3 digits - Captain Snikt--[[Special:Contributions/86.145.33.181|86.145.33.181]] 20:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

== What's the proper way to hold this shotgun while firing? ==

This might be a bit of a dumb question, but if during the reloading/chambering-a-new-round process, the shooter is at risk from being whacked in the face by a spent shell flying out of the gun, then what's the proper way of holding this shotgun when firing it? Do you aim down the sights and risk getting whacked in the face by a spent shell when you reload? Or do you shoot from the hip? Or when reloading, do you just tip the shotgun away from your head to eject the spent shell away from you? --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 00:17, 20 January 2012 (CST)

Usually the spent shells eject upward and slightly back...-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:36, 8 August 2012 (CDT)

Talk:List of weapons used by U.S. Armed Forces

2012-07-27T07:42:31Z

Ranger01: /* Colt Rail Gun */

Thank you to whoever created this page, I've thought a lot about trying to do a page like this myself, since a lot of people on this site like to point out "That isn't what a solder/officer in such and such military of law enforcement agency would use in real life." Maybe if this page proves to be popular we could do other pages about other agencies. --[[User:AndCA|AndCA]] 22:06, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Your very welcome :) everything on that page took about a month to make due to my schedule (and I'm only 15). I am planning on doing a page about the British and the Russian armed forces but I want to have this done first. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 22:17, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

I didn't know the Marines have started using the SCAR H [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:23, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

I may have gotten some incorrect info during my research, I'll look into it. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 22:31, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Thank You for doing this, the fact that you are fifteen only makes me have more respect for you.--[[User:Dillinger|Dillinger]] 23:29, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Mate, big respect for you for doing this! Well done! If you need any info on what the British Armed Forces do, please let me know, I can help with that!! Again, proper nice job mate!! [[User:Fixer|Fixer]]

::As far as I know the only use by the USMC of the SCAR platform was a variant of the 'L' model during trials for the M27. The H&K 416 was chosen. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:26, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Doesn't the Navy also use the M16A3 variant? [[User:Insertjjs|Insertjjs]] 6:37, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Yes they do, my Seabee buddy's issued weapon is an M16A3 with a 203.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:56, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Are we doing out of service rifles and shotguns as well? Wicked wikipedia gives a complete list if that helps he page.-[[User:Balin21|Balin21]] 12:30, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Of course. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 12:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== YES!!! ==

THIS IS AN AWESOME IDEA!!! One that I have been wanting to do for a while. Gets my 100% stamp of approval! --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 08:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Glad you like it I just hope this gets done soon so I can work on my next idea. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 08:55, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

When this one is done, how about one for the British Armed Forces, SAS and suchlike? --[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 10:25, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

I have been thinking about one for the British I may do one like that next. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 11:32, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:If you do, don't forget they recently adopted the LMT 7.62 as their new Sniper rifle/DMR [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:47, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::That they do, but I don't think we have a page for it since it's not shown up in media yet. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 12:59, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::No, it hasn't appeared in anything to my knowledge, and we need to emphasize that this page, like all other pages on IMFDb, is for weapons ''used in films, TV, or video games'', not an end-all list of every weapon ever used by an armed force. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 03:13, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

== SDM-R picture ==

I'm looking for a good shot of the Army's Squad Designated Marksman Rifle, but I can't find one. Can anyone help me out? --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 10:27, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm reasonably sure it's not that different from the M16A4, aside from subtle differences in the rails (DD M4Rail rather than KAC M5) and differences to the barrel which are hidden by the rails. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:27, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:Never mind, then; I'll simply remove it on the grounds that's it's not dissimilar from M16A4 model. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 11:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:The SDM-R was a very limited trial program and it was only fielded to one unit before it was canceled and/or withdrawn from service. The SAM-R met a similar end when the Marines opted for the Mark 12 Mod 1 instead. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:34, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== P226R ==

Don't the SEALs use the 226 with a rail now? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:01, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

:According to SIG the SEALs currently use a P226 with a Picatinny rail that is not the standard rail found on P226s. In the past they have used folded steel slides without any rail or other outward identifying marks. When they went to the stainless steel slides an anchor was added to be able to easily tell which were the new slides and which were the older model. At some point a rail was added during the use of the stainless slides, which lead to a complaint that not all light attachments worked on it (can't complain about an out of spec rail on a gun without a rail), so the current model was outfitted with a true 1913 picatinny rail. [[User:Dover500|Dover500]] 11:02, 20 July 2012 (CDT)

== Page name ==

Should the "firearms" be changed to "weapons", as there are several things on here that I would not call firearms, such as the grenades, mines and launchers. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:15, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

I say go for it if accuracy is the case [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 12:22, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== USMC SOCOM ==

Should the listing of USMC SOCOM be changed to USMC MARSOC since MARSOC is the branch of the USMC that is a part of SOCOM. I think USMC SOCOM just sounds odd because it describes the USMC ''branch'' of SOCOM. This is just my opinion, what do you guys think? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 13:22, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:Done.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 13:59, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::Thanks. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:00, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== Magazine capacities ==

Great idea Mr.Ice. Anyway, is it OK if I add the various magazine capacities for the firearms with the caliber in parentheses beside it?
:It is already there... Under "Capacity"... And sign your post. --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 17:04, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== Colt Rail Gun ==

I think it's been adopted very recently to replace the Kimber ICQB, should it go on the page?--[[User:Recon42|Recon42]] 06:35, 20 July 2012 (CDT)
:it is already on there as the [[Colt XSE]], it is the same gun as the one pictured except with a desert tan finish and grips. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:49, 20 July 2012 (CDT)

The XSE along with the Kimber are also used by Army Special Forces and 1st SFOD-D. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 21:58, 24 July 2012 (CDT)
:Last time I checked the Special Forces still used M9s. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 08:56, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

They may use it or have used it but their regular sidearm is a M1911 variant or a Glock. The M9 and M9A1 are standard issue so it isn't uncommon for Special Forces to pick it up and use it once in a while. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 14:10, 25 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm very interested to see your source on that. Last time I checked the only bit of the US Army to still use 1911s was Delta. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 15:49, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

In a number of 'Small Arms of the World' books I own along with a book co-written by General Carl Stiner, a former Commander in Cheif of USSOCOM. I would love to see the source of your info. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 17:36, 25 July 2012 (CDT)
:Let's jump straight to the photography then.
:*[http://www.americanspecialops.com/photos/special-forces/special-forces-medic.php Special Forces medic in Afghanistan, 2007]. Note the Beretta holstered on his belt.
:*[http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?114762-United-States-SOF-pics&p=6214829&viewfull=1#post6214829 US Army Special Forces at the Fuerzas Comando 2012 event.] Note the obvious M9 being reloaded in the first photo.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2011/2011/album/slides/3SF_9350.html Special Forces NCO Instructor at the 2011 USASFC Soldier and NCO of the Year Competition]. Note the M9 in his holster.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2010/album/slides/101005-A-Lxxx-001.html Army Special Forces soldiers conduct range training, 2010.] Every single one of them has an M9.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2010/album/slides/100805-A-2913D-194.html Special Forces training at Fort Carson, Colorado. 2010.] Holstered M9s.
:In short, for a weapon not regularly used by US Army Special Forces, there's a lot of images of US Army Special Forces with M9s. Note though that I am only calling you out on your assertion about the 1911; there's plenty of evidence for Glocks in the last year or so. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 02:46, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Well I can't tell you you're wrong and I will correct what I said and admit they apparently do use it more often then I thought but you can't honestly tell me I'm wrong either when my source material clearly states they do use M1911 variants. We are talking about Special Forces here so what they use is honestly their choice.[[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 13:29, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:And yet nowhere in the 1200+ images I checked through did I see a single 1911 pattern pistol aside from two presentation pieces. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 13:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Just because they're not there, doesn't mean they don't exist. You can't find everything on the internet. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 13:55, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Well, if the 1911 was the standard sidearm of the US Army Special Forces, don't you think there would be a lot of pictures of them with the 1911? When were these books of your's written? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:10, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::For the record, the General who co-wrote one of the books he cited retired in '93.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:11, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

His retirement date has no relavence. He's former Special Forces and Commander in Chief of USSOCOM, I'm pretty sure his information would be pretty up to date when he wrote the book. The book he co-wrote was published in 2002 and the most recent one I have of the other's is from 2007. And no, I don't think they'd have pictures all over the internet of them, they're Special Forces, and I honestly don't believe he searched through 1200+ photo's of them to gather his info. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 15:37, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Okay, there might not be a lot of pictures of the SF, but there is at least 1200+ talked about here, and out of 1200+ not one of them shows the SF soldiers with their supposed "standard sidearm," the 1911. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 16:08, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

And as I stated before, just because it isn't there doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For the record I never stated it was their 'standard issue.' I said it was their regular sidearm. They're Special Forces, they have no 'standard issue.' Lets make this simple, no matter what I say you're not going to believe me, which is fine I know what I know and you know what you know. He can't find a picture of it and I have books that state it, its a discussion that won't end. It's an agree to disagree situation. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 17:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Well, regular sidearm means that it would be used in large quantities by them and yet we have no photographic evidence of them using the 1911. If we go by the fact that they can use whatever they want, why don't we just list every handgun and say, "There is a chance someone in the military is using one." There is a way to end this discussion, what are the name of these books that you got your info from? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 18:54, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

[http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/index.php Professionalsoldiers.com] ask them yourselves, they should know what they carry. (Most on there prefer Glocks btw.)-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:39, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:I don't really trust PS, because anyone can go on it and post whatever they want. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 02:20, 27 July 2012 (CDT)

Not necessarily true, you have to be vetted to have certain user names and the "Quiet Professional" tag, they will actually go look through their class lists and etc to find out if a person is who they say they are, and if someone posts BS or w/e they get the boot-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 02:42, 27 July 2012 (CDT)

== M11 Pistol ==

I wasn't aware that NCIS uses the P228 anymore. I thought they used the P229 DAK. I'm posting this to let you know why I changed it on the main page. Just thought I'd let you know. (By the way, if anyone has any comments, feel free to respond to me.) --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 15:30 (CDT)

According to (the ever-accurate, lol) Wikipedia, they no longer use the P228. However, it says that they also use the P239 DAK as well as the P229 DAK. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 19:22, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

== Gun order ==

Right now the guns, particularly the out of service ones, seem to be in a pretty random order. What do people think would be the best way to categorise them by, alphabetically, chronologically, user or notoriety? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:28, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

:Chronologically sounds good, probably from earliest to latest. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 19:30, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

:I agree, it will better in that order. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 20:03, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

== M4A1 ==
It needs to be notated that the M4A1 is only standard issue to special operations/ and Rangers. The M4 carbine (Semi and burst fire) is the standard rifle for front-line combat arms units in the US Army. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 21:28, 24 July 2012 (CDT)
:Done. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:26, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

== NCIS ==

So this page lists the weapons of the US Armed Forces, like the Army, Navy, Marines, etc. NCIS is a federal agency, not part of the Armed Forces. Should it be removed? --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 19:35 (CDT)
:NCIS is part of the Department of the Navy. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 08:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::OK, so I'll go ahead and add CID as well, as it's part of the Army. But should other federal agencies be added, as they are part of the Department of Justice or Homeland Security, and they are also technically part of the US Armed Forces as well? --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 16:48 (CDT)
::::The CID doesn't need to be there anyway, as the weapons they use are already listed with the US Army. The only reason the NCIS is listed (if it deserves to be here anyway, my opinion is that it shouldn't as is a federal law enforcement agency and not part of "Armed Forces") is that they use weapons that are not used by the regular Navy. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:56, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::: Don't forget OSI (Office of Special Investigations), the Air Force equivelant. On an unrelated not, why would EOD use the Mk18? It's not like they need super-short weapons for CQB, they dispose of bombs.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 17:52, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::::EOD in most forces tend to use shorter weapons than regular infantry as they only carry weapons for personal defence, and the lighter weight of smaller weapons is a plus when you have to carry additional specialist equipment. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:56, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:::So the question is, I guess, do we keep NCIS, and by that reasoning, add a whole bunch more federal agencies (DHS, FBI, ATF, etc.), or do we remove it as it technically isn't part of the "Armed Forces?" I vote remove. --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 19:02 (CDT)

== SIG P239 ==

I have read somewhere that the P239 was issued by DEVGRU to plain clothes operators, does anyone know if this is true? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:43, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm looking at a page right now that [http://www.americanspecialops.com/special-ops-weapons/sig-p239.php says the same thing], but there's no way to confirm it since it doesn't give a source. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:48, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::That's actually the page I read it on, but I didn't trust it without a source. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:51, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::Certainly, SIG aren't pimping it the same way that they do with the P226.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:53, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Talk:List of weapons used by U.S. Armed Forces

2012-07-27T03:42:07Z

Ranger01: /* Colt Rail Gun */

Thank you to whoever created this page, I've thought a lot about trying to do a page like this myself, since a lot of people on this site like to point out "That isn't what a solder/officer in such and such military of law enforcement agency would use in real life." Maybe if this page proves to be popular we could do other pages about other agencies. --[[User:AndCA|AndCA]] 22:06, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Your very welcome :) everything on that page took about a month to make due to my schedule (and I'm only 15). I am planning on doing a page about the British and the Russian armed forces but I want to have this done first. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 22:17, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

I didn't know the Marines have started using the SCAR H [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:23, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

I may have gotten some incorrect info during my research, I'll look into it. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 22:31, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Thank You for doing this, the fact that you are fifteen only makes me have more respect for you.--[[User:Dillinger|Dillinger]] 23:29, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Mate, big respect for you for doing this! Well done! If you need any info on what the British Armed Forces do, please let me know, I can help with that!! Again, proper nice job mate!! [[User:Fixer|Fixer]]

::As far as I know the only use by the USMC of the SCAR platform was a variant of the 'L' model during trials for the M27. The H&K 416 was chosen. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:26, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Doesn't the Navy also use the M16A3 variant? [[User:Insertjjs|Insertjjs]] 6:37, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Yes they do, my Seabee buddy's issued weapon is an M16A3 with a 203.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:56, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Are we doing out of service rifles and shotguns as well? Wicked wikipedia gives a complete list if that helps he page.-[[User:Balin21|Balin21]] 12:30, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Of course. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 12:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== YES!!! ==

THIS IS AN AWESOME IDEA!!! One that I have been wanting to do for a while. Gets my 100% stamp of approval! --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 08:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Glad you like it I just hope this gets done soon so I can work on my next idea. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 08:55, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

When this one is done, how about one for the British Armed Forces, SAS and suchlike? --[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 10:25, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

I have been thinking about one for the British I may do one like that next. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 11:32, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:If you do, don't forget they recently adopted the LMT 7.62 as their new Sniper rifle/DMR [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:47, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::That they do, but I don't think we have a page for it since it's not shown up in media yet. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 12:59, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::No, it hasn't appeared in anything to my knowledge, and we need to emphasize that this page, like all other pages on IMFDb, is for weapons ''used in films, TV, or video games'', not an end-all list of every weapon ever used by an armed force. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 03:13, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

== SDM-R picture ==

I'm looking for a good shot of the Army's Squad Designated Marksman Rifle, but I can't find one. Can anyone help me out? --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 10:27, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm reasonably sure it's not that different from the M16A4, aside from subtle differences in the rails (DD M4Rail rather than KAC M5) and differences to the barrel which are hidden by the rails. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:27, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:Never mind, then; I'll simply remove it on the grounds that's it's not dissimilar from M16A4 model. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 11:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:The SDM-R was a very limited trial program and it was only fielded to one unit before it was canceled and/or withdrawn from service. The SAM-R met a similar end when the Marines opted for the Mark 12 Mod 1 instead. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:34, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== P226R ==

Don't the SEALs use the 226 with a rail now? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:01, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

:According to SIG the SEALs currently use a P226 with a Picatinny rail that is not the standard rail found on P226s. In the past they have used folded steel slides without any rail or other outward identifying marks. When they went to the stainless steel slides an anchor was added to be able to easily tell which were the new slides and which were the older model. At some point a rail was added during the use of the stainless slides, which lead to a complaint that not all light attachments worked on it (can't complain about an out of spec rail on a gun without a rail), so the current model was outfitted with a true 1913 picatinny rail. [[User:Dover500|Dover500]] 11:02, 20 July 2012 (CDT)

== Page name ==

Should the "firearms" be changed to "weapons", as there are several things on here that I would not call firearms, such as the grenades, mines and launchers. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:15, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

I say go for it if accuracy is the case [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 12:22, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== USMC SOCOM ==

Should the listing of USMC SOCOM be changed to USMC MARSOC since MARSOC is the branch of the USMC that is a part of SOCOM. I think USMC SOCOM just sounds odd because it describes the USMC ''branch'' of SOCOM. This is just my opinion, what do you guys think? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 13:22, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:Done.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 13:59, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::Thanks. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:00, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== Magazine capacities ==

Great idea Mr.Ice. Anyway, is it OK if I add the various magazine capacities for the firearms with the caliber in parentheses beside it?
:It is already there... Under "Capacity"... And sign your post. --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 17:04, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== Colt Rail Gun ==

I think it's been adopted very recently to replace the Kimber ICQB, should it go on the page?--[[User:Recon42|Recon42]] 06:35, 20 July 2012 (CDT)
:it is already on there as the [[Colt XSE]], it is the same gun as the one pictured except with a desert tan finish and grips. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:49, 20 July 2012 (CDT)

The XSE along with the Kimber are also used by Army Special Forces and 1st SFOD-D. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 21:58, 24 July 2012 (CDT)
:Last time I checked the Special Forces still used M9s. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 08:56, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

They may use it or have used it but their regular sidearm is a M1911 variant or a Glock. The M9 and M9A1 are standard issue so it isn't uncommon for Special Forces to pick it up and use it once in a while. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 14:10, 25 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm very interested to see your source on that. Last time I checked the only bit of the US Army to still use 1911s was Delta. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 15:49, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

In a number of 'Small Arms of the World' books I own along with a book co-written by General Carl Stiner, a former Commander in Cheif of USSOCOM. I would love to see the source of your info. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 17:36, 25 July 2012 (CDT)
:Let's jump straight to the photography then.
:*[http://www.americanspecialops.com/photos/special-forces/special-forces-medic.php Special Forces medic in Afghanistan, 2007]. Note the Beretta holstered on his belt.
:*[http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?114762-United-States-SOF-pics&p=6214829&viewfull=1#post6214829 US Army Special Forces at the Fuerzas Comando 2012 event.] Note the obvious M9 being reloaded in the first photo.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2011/2011/album/slides/3SF_9350.html Special Forces NCO Instructor at the 2011 USASFC Soldier and NCO of the Year Competition]. Note the M9 in his holster.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2010/album/slides/101005-A-Lxxx-001.html Army Special Forces soldiers conduct range training, 2010.] Every single one of them has an M9.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2010/album/slides/100805-A-2913D-194.html Special Forces training at Fort Carson, Colorado. 2010.] Holstered M9s.
:In short, for a weapon not regularly used by US Army Special Forces, there's a lot of images of US Army Special Forces with M9s. Note though that I am only calling you out on your assertion about the 1911; there's plenty of evidence for Glocks in the last year or so. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 02:46, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Well I can't tell you you're wrong and I will correct what I said and admit they apparently do use it more often then I thought but you can't honestly tell me I'm wrong either when my source material clearly states they do use M1911 variants. We are talking about Special Forces here so what they use is honestly their choice.[[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 13:29, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:And yet nowhere in the 1200+ images I checked through did I see a single 1911 pattern pistol aside from two presentation pieces. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 13:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Just because they're not there, doesn't mean they don't exist. You can't find everything on the internet. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 13:55, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Well, if the 1911 was the standard sidearm of the US Army Special Forces, don't you think there would be a lot of pictures of them with the 1911? When were these books of your's written? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:10, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::For the record, the General who co-wrote one of the books he cited retired in '93.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:11, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

His retirement date has no relavence. He's former Special Forces and Commander in Chief of USSOCOM, I'm pretty sure his information would be pretty up to date when he wrote the book. The book he co-wrote was published in 2002 and the most recent one I have of the other's is from 2007. And no, I don't think they'd have pictures all over the internet of them, they're Special Forces, and I honestly don't believe he searched through 1200+ photo's of them to gather his info. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 15:37, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Okay, there might not be a lot of pictures of the SF, but there is at least 1200+ talked about here, and out of 1200+ not one of them shows the SF soldiers with their supposed "standard sidearm," the 1911. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 16:08, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

And as I stated before, just because it isn't there doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For the record I never stated it was their 'standard issue.' I said it was their regular sidearm. They're Special Forces, they have no 'standard issue.' Lets make this simple, no matter what I say you're not going to believe me, which is fine I know what I know and you know what you know. He can't find a picture of it and I have books that state it, its a discussion that won't end. It's an agree to disagree situation. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 17:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Well, regular sidearm means that it would be used in large quantities by them and yet we have no photographic evidence of them using the 1911. If we go by the fact that they can use whatever they want, why don't we just list every handgun and say, "There is a chance someone in the military is using one." There is a way to end this discussion, what are the name of these books that you got your info from? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 18:54, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

[http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/index.php Professionalsoldiers.com] ask them yourselves, they should know what they carry. (Most on there prefer Glocks btw.)-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:39, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

== M11 Pistol ==

I wasn't aware that NCIS uses the P228 anymore. I thought they used the P229 DAK. I'm posting this to let you know why I changed it on the main page. Just thought I'd let you know. (By the way, if anyone has any comments, feel free to respond to me.) --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 15:30 (CDT)

According to (the ever-accurate, lol) Wikipedia, they no longer use the P228. However, it says that they also use the P239 DAK as well as the P229 DAK. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 19:22, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

== Gun order ==

Right now the guns, particularly the out of service ones, seem to be in a pretty random order. What do people think would be the best way to categorise them by, alphabetically, chronologically, user or notoriety? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:28, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

:Chronologically sounds good, probably from earliest to latest. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 19:30, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

:I agree, it will better in that order. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 20:03, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

== M4A1 ==
It needs to be notated that the M4A1 is only standard issue to special operations/ and Rangers. The M4 carbine (Semi and burst fire) is the standard rifle for front-line combat arms units in the US Army. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 21:28, 24 July 2012 (CDT)
:Done. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:26, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

== NCIS ==

So this page lists the weapons of the US Armed Forces, like the Army, Navy, Marines, etc. NCIS is a federal agency, not part of the Armed Forces. Should it be removed? --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 19:35 (CDT)
:NCIS is part of the Department of the Navy. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 08:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::OK, so I'll go ahead and add CID as well, as it's part of the Army. But should other federal agencies be added, as they are part of the Department of Justice or Homeland Security, and they are also technically part of the US Armed Forces as well? --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 16:48 (CDT)
::::The CID doesn't need to be there anyway, as the weapons they use are already listed with the US Army. The only reason the NCIS is listed (if it deserves to be here anyway, my opinion is that it shouldn't as is a federal law enforcement agency and not part of "Armed Forces") is that they use weapons that are not used by the regular Navy. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:56, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::: Don't forget OSI (Office of Special Investigations), the Air Force equivelant. On an unrelated not, why would EOD use the Mk18? It's not like they need super-short weapons for CQB, they dispose of bombs.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 17:52, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::::EOD in most forces tend to use shorter weapons than regular infantry as they only carry weapons for personal defence, and the lighter weight of smaller weapons is a plus when you have to carry additional specialist equipment. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:56, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:::So the question is, I guess, do we keep NCIS, and by that reasoning, add a whole bunch more federal agencies (DHS, FBI, ATF, etc.), or do we remove it as it technically isn't part of the "Armed Forces?" I vote remove. --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 19:02 (CDT)

== SIG P239 ==

I have read somewhere that the P239 was issued by DEVGRU to plain clothes operators, does anyone know if this is true? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:43, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm looking at a page right now that [http://www.americanspecialops.com/special-ops-weapons/sig-p239.php says the same thing], but there's no way to confirm it since it doesn't give a source. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:48, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::That's actually the page I read it on, but I didn't trust it without a source. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:51, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::Certainly, SIG aren't pimping it the same way that they do with the P226.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:53, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Talk:List of weapons used by U.S. Armed Forces

2012-07-27T03:39:45Z

Ranger01: /* Colt Rail Gun */

Thank you to whoever created this page, I've thought a lot about trying to do a page like this myself, since a lot of people on this site like to point out "That isn't what a solder/officer in such and such military of law enforcement agency would use in real life." Maybe if this page proves to be popular we could do other pages about other agencies. --[[User:AndCA|AndCA]] 22:06, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Your very welcome :) everything on that page took about a month to make due to my schedule (and I'm only 15). I am planning on doing a page about the British and the Russian armed forces but I want to have this done first. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 22:17, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

I didn't know the Marines have started using the SCAR H [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:23, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

I may have gotten some incorrect info during my research, I'll look into it. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 22:31, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Thank You for doing this, the fact that you are fifteen only makes me have more respect for you.--[[User:Dillinger|Dillinger]] 23:29, 18 July 2012 (CDT)

Mate, big respect for you for doing this! Well done! If you need any info on what the British Armed Forces do, please let me know, I can help with that!! Again, proper nice job mate!! [[User:Fixer|Fixer]]

::As far as I know the only use by the USMC of the SCAR platform was a variant of the 'L' model during trials for the M27. The H&K 416 was chosen. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 01:26, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Doesn't the Navy also use the M16A3 variant? [[User:Insertjjs|Insertjjs]] 6:37, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Yes they do, my Seabee buddy's issued weapon is an M16A3 with a 203.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:56, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Are we doing out of service rifles and shotguns as well? Wicked wikipedia gives a complete list if that helps he page.-[[User:Balin21|Balin21]] 12:30, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Of course. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 12:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== YES!!! ==

THIS IS AN AWESOME IDEA!!! One that I have been wanting to do for a while. Gets my 100% stamp of approval! --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 08:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

Glad you like it I just hope this gets done soon so I can work on my next idea. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 08:55, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

When this one is done, how about one for the British Armed Forces, SAS and suchlike? --[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 10:25, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

I have been thinking about one for the British I may do one like that next. [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 11:32, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:If you do, don't forget they recently adopted the LMT 7.62 as their new Sniper rifle/DMR [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:47, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::That they do, but I don't think we have a page for it since it's not shown up in media yet. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 12:59, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::No, it hasn't appeared in anything to my knowledge, and we need to emphasize that this page, like all other pages on IMFDb, is for weapons ''used in films, TV, or video games'', not an end-all list of every weapon ever used by an armed force. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 03:13, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

== SDM-R picture ==

I'm looking for a good shot of the Army's Squad Designated Marksman Rifle, but I can't find one. Can anyone help me out? --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 10:27, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm reasonably sure it's not that different from the M16A4, aside from subtle differences in the rails (DD M4Rail rather than KAC M5) and differences to the barrel which are hidden by the rails. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:27, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:Never mind, then; I'll simply remove it on the grounds that's it's not dissimilar from M16A4 model. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 11:33, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:The SDM-R was a very limited trial program and it was only fielded to one unit before it was canceled and/or withdrawn from service. The SAM-R met a similar end when the Marines opted for the Mark 12 Mod 1 instead. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:34, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== P226R ==

Don't the SEALs use the 226 with a rail now? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:01, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

:According to SIG the SEALs currently use a P226 with a Picatinny rail that is not the standard rail found on P226s. In the past they have used folded steel slides without any rail or other outward identifying marks. When they went to the stainless steel slides an anchor was added to be able to easily tell which were the new slides and which were the older model. At some point a rail was added during the use of the stainless slides, which lead to a complaint that not all light attachments worked on it (can't complain about an out of spec rail on a gun without a rail), so the current model was outfitted with a true 1913 picatinny rail. [[User:Dover500|Dover500]] 11:02, 20 July 2012 (CDT)

== Page name ==

Should the "firearms" be changed to "weapons", as there are several things on here that I would not call firearms, such as the grenades, mines and launchers. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:15, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

I say go for it if accuracy is the case [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]] 12:22, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== USMC SOCOM ==

Should the listing of USMC SOCOM be changed to USMC MARSOC since MARSOC is the branch of the USMC that is a part of SOCOM. I think USMC SOCOM just sounds odd because it describes the USMC ''branch'' of SOCOM. This is just my opinion, what do you guys think? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 13:22, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
:Done.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 13:59, 19 July 2012 (CDT)
::Thanks. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:00, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== Magazine capacities ==

Great idea Mr.Ice. Anyway, is it OK if I add the various magazine capacities for the firearms with the caliber in parentheses beside it?
:It is already there... Under "Capacity"... And sign your post. --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 17:04, 19 July 2012 (CDT)

== Colt Rail Gun ==

I think it's been adopted very recently to replace the Kimber ICQB, should it go on the page?--[[User:Recon42|Recon42]] 06:35, 20 July 2012 (CDT)
:it is already on there as the [[Colt XSE]], it is the same gun as the one pictured except with a desert tan finish and grips. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:49, 20 July 2012 (CDT)

The XSE along with the Kimber are also used by Army Special Forces and 1st SFOD-D. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 21:58, 24 July 2012 (CDT)
:Last time I checked the Special Forces still used M9s. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 08:56, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

They may use it or have used it but their regular sidearm is a M1911 variant or a Glock. The M9 and M9A1 are standard issue so it isn't uncommon for Special Forces to pick it up and use it once in a while. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 14:10, 25 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm very interested to see your source on that. Last time I checked the only bit of the US Army to still use 1911s was Delta. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 15:49, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

In a number of 'Small Arms of the World' books I own along with a book co-written by General Carl Stiner, a former Commander in Cheif of USSOCOM. I would love to see the source of your info. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 17:36, 25 July 2012 (CDT)
:Let's jump straight to the photography then.
:*[http://www.americanspecialops.com/photos/special-forces/special-forces-medic.php Special Forces medic in Afghanistan, 2007]. Note the Beretta holstered on his belt.
:*[http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?114762-United-States-SOF-pics&p=6214829&viewfull=1#post6214829 US Army Special Forces at the Fuerzas Comando 2012 event.] Note the obvious M9 being reloaded in the first photo.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2011/2011/album/slides/3SF_9350.html Special Forces NCO Instructor at the 2011 USASFC Soldier and NCO of the Year Competition]. Note the M9 in his holster.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2010/album/slides/101005-A-Lxxx-001.html Army Special Forces soldiers conduct range training, 2010.] Every single one of them has an M9.
:*[http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Photo/2010/album/slides/100805-A-2913D-194.html Special Forces training at Fort Carson, Colorado. 2010.] Holstered M9s.
:In short, for a weapon not regularly used by US Army Special Forces, there's a lot of images of US Army Special Forces with M9s. Note though that I am only calling you out on your assertion about the 1911; there's plenty of evidence for Glocks in the last year or so. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 02:46, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Well I can't tell you you're wrong and I will correct what I said and admit they apparently do use it more often then I thought but you can't honestly tell me I'm wrong either when my source material clearly states they do use M1911 variants. We are talking about Special Forces here so what they use is honestly their choice.[[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 13:29, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:And yet nowhere in the 1200+ images I checked through did I see a single 1911 pattern pistol aside from two presentation pieces. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 13:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Just because they're not there, doesn't mean they don't exist. You can't find everything on the internet. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 13:55, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Well, if the 1911 was the standard sidearm of the US Army Special Forces, don't you think there would be a lot of pictures of them with the 1911? When were these books of your's written? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:10, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::For the record, the General who co-wrote one of the books he cited retired in '93.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:11, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

His retirement date has no relavence. He's former Special Forces and Commander in Chief of USSOCOM, I'm pretty sure his information would be pretty up to date when he wrote the book. The book he co-wrote was published in 2002 and the most recent one I have of the other's is from 2007. And no, I don't think they'd have pictures all over the internet of them, they're Special Forces, and I honestly don't believe he searched through 1200+ photo's of them to gather his info. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 15:37, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Okay, there might not be a lot of pictures of the SF, but there is at least 1200+ talked about here, and out of 1200+ not one of them shows the SF soldiers with their supposed "standard sidearm," the 1911. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 16:08, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

And as I stated before, just because it isn't there doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For the record I never stated it was their 'standard issue.' I said it was their regular sidearm. They're Special Forces, they have no 'standard issue.' Lets make this simple, no matter what I say you're not going to believe me, which is fine I know what I know and you know what you know. He can't find a picture of it and I have books that state it, its a discussion that won't end. It's an agree to disagree situation. [[User:Puppet.of.fate|Puppet.of.fate]] 17:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

:Well, regular sidearm means that it would be used in large quantities by them and yet we have no photographic evidence of them using the 1911. If we go by the fact that they can use whatever they want, why don't we just list every handgun and say, "There is a chance someone in the military is using one." There is a way to end this discussion, what are the name of these books that you got your info from? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 18:54, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

www.professionalsoldiers.com ask them yourselves, they should know what they carry. (Most on there prefer Glocks btw.)-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:39, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

== M11 Pistol ==

I wasn't aware that NCIS uses the P228 anymore. I thought they used the P229 DAK. I'm posting this to let you know why I changed it on the main page. Just thought I'd let you know. (By the way, if anyone has any comments, feel free to respond to me.) --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 15:30 (CDT)

According to (the ever-accurate, lol) Wikipedia, they no longer use the P228. However, it says that they also use the P239 DAK as well as the P229 DAK. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 19:22, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

== Gun order ==

Right now the guns, particularly the out of service ones, seem to be in a pretty random order. What do people think would be the best way to categorise them by, alphabetically, chronologically, user or notoriety? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:28, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

:Chronologically sounds good, probably from earliest to latest. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 19:30, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

:I agree, it will better in that order. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 20:03, 24 July 2012 (CDT)

== M4A1 ==
It needs to be notated that the M4A1 is only standard issue to special operations/ and Rangers. The M4 carbine (Semi and burst fire) is the standard rifle for front-line combat arms units in the US Army. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 21:28, 24 July 2012 (CDT)
:Done. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:26, 25 July 2012 (CDT)

== NCIS ==

So this page lists the weapons of the US Armed Forces, like the Army, Navy, Marines, etc. NCIS is a federal agency, not part of the Armed Forces. Should it be removed? --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 19:35 (CDT)
:NCIS is part of the Department of the Navy. --[[User:Dirty Harold|Dirty Harold]] 08:35, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::OK, so I'll go ahead and add CID as well, as it's part of the Army. But should other federal agencies be added, as they are part of the Department of Justice or Homeland Security, and they are also technically part of the US Armed Forces as well? --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 16:48 (CDT)
::::The CID doesn't need to be there anyway, as the weapons they use are already listed with the US Army. The only reason the NCIS is listed (if it deserves to be here anyway, my opinion is that it shouldn't as is a federal law enforcement agency and not part of "Armed Forces") is that they use weapons that are not used by the regular Navy. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:56, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::: Don't forget OSI (Office of Special Investigations), the Air Force equivelant. On an unrelated not, why would EOD use the Mk18? It's not like they need super-short weapons for CQB, they dispose of bombs.--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 17:52, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::::EOD in most forces tend to use shorter weapons than regular infantry as they only carry weapons for personal defence, and the lighter weight of smaller weapons is a plus when you have to carry additional specialist equipment. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:56, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:::So the question is, I guess, do we keep NCIS, and by that reasoning, add a whole bunch more federal agencies (DHS, FBI, ATF, etc.), or do we remove it as it technically isn't part of the "Armed Forces?" I vote remove. --[[User:Mormonpowerranger521|Mormonpowerranger521]] 19:02 (CDT)

== SIG P239 ==

I have read somewhere that the P239 was issued by DEVGRU to plain clothes operators, does anyone know if this is true? --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:43, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
:I'm looking at a page right now that [http://www.americanspecialops.com/special-ops-weapons/sig-p239.php says the same thing], but there's no way to confirm it since it doesn't give a source. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:48, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::That's actually the page I read it on, but I didn't trust it without a source. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 14:51, 26 July 2012 (CDT)
::Certainly, SIG aren't pimping it the same way that they do with the P226.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:53, 26 July 2012 (CDT)

Talk:Air Force One

2012-07-21T18:29:06Z

Ranger01: /* Used all Budget on new M4's? */

==Trivia (Moved from Main page)==
The dirty Secret Service Agent in this movie is named Gibbs. In the [[NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service|NCIS]] pilot episode in which they investigate on Air Force One, [[Mark Harmon]]'s main character (also named Gibbs) makes a couple references to this Harrison Ford movie.

==Comment on HK94s==
I changed the term 'cheaply converted' to 'converted', since "cheaply" sounded like an insult. And though it was a lot more economical to convert an HK94 at the time, the conversion process costs the same. MPM2008

:Oh, I wouldn't want to insult anyone. I only made used that term to express the fact that the guns look like chopped HK94s, instead of MP5A3s (since they lack the proper trigger grip, magazine release, and barrel). It was the best adjective I could think of to describe their appearance. -MT2008

==Blu Ray==

I've replaced all screencaps with Blu Ray versions (plus some new screencaps I didn't use before). Enjoy.

Also, I know it's not related, but...

[[Image:AFO-P226-16.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

Wow, I forgot that [[Xander Berkeley]] has such huge hands! -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 02:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Look at [[Harrison Ford]]'s face, You'd think HE'S the one holding the Gun

Excellent job with the Blu ray screencaps! --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 22:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

==Another question...==

I'm still trying to figure out what sort of attachment is fitted to the barrel of [[Gary Oldman]]'s M4 carbine in this movie. Here is the best view of it:

[[Image:AFO-M4-8.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

Does anyone know what it is? These same M4s (in the same configuration) were also seen in ''[[Godzilla (1998)|Godzilla]]''. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 03:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

:Probably a Flashlight. I doubt it would be a Laser Sight. I don't think they ever used the 'attachment' in the movie.

::I'm suddenly not even sure that it could be any kind of flashlight or laser sight. There's no visible pressure switch for activation anywhere on the M4's hand guards. It might be a barrel weight of some kind, though it seems rather unnecessary for a mil-spec M4. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

:::Odd angle, possible AN/PEQ-2 IR Illuminator or previous generation model. (FNFl)
:I think it is a MILES attachment. Why its on the gun? I dont know. -[[User:The_Winchester|The Man with the Silver Gun]]

::::There's no way it's a PEQ-2; those are much bigger, and they also didn't exist when this movie was filmed. I don't think it's a MILES attachment, either, though, otherwise it would be on the muzzle, not the front sight. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 01:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

:::::Anyone want to help a rookie out... What's a "MILES" attachment? -[[JAG1967]] 01:33, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Laser tag with real guns firing blanks. MILES stands for Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System. To me the attachment looks like a barrel weight/ harmonic stabilizer.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:33, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

:Perhaps an early version of the AR-2A Laser or something mounted on a Command Arms triple rail front sight, but I don't think so. On the white label can hardly read something like M*M. Perhaps MTM? That means Morovision, a brand of pointing devices... Hard to say.--[[User:Charly Driver|Charly Driver]] 17:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

:I know that Air Force One would be a special case, probably with thicker, armoured plating around the fuselage, but surely they wouldn't be using full power rounds, especially in the assault rifles? With thicker hull plates, the risk of a hole in the hull goes down but the risk of riccochet goes way, way up. Perhaps the doohickey attached to the barrel helps the gas system to cycle lower power rounds? --Stix

:Can anyone make out the writing on the top of it? Probably a valuable clue... --Stix

== Used all Budget on new M4's? ==

I find it strange this film had brand new M4's, but still used HK94's as MP5's. HK94's were popular in the 80's and early 90's, but I think Air Force One is probably the last film to have used them, no? - [[User:Thomas|Thomas]] 05:08, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

:''[[Air Force One]]'' is not the last film to use the partially-converted HK94s; they appeared again in ''[[Godzilla (1998)|Godzilla]]'' (which had the same M4s as this movie, because the armorer was the same guy) and ''[[The Siege]]'' (both from 1998). As for the M4s, those were probably just new in the Stembridge inventory at the time - there's no evidence that they were bought and converted just for this film (although ''[[Air Force One]]'' is, as we have documented, the first known cinema appearance of the M4). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 10:32, 23 November 2011 (CST)
::I could swear I saw one as recently as last year in ''[[The Good Guys]]''. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 10:47, 23 November 2011 (CST)

::I think they ran out of budget when they animated the scene of Air Force One crashing into the ocean... Compare to the other scenes in the movie, that scene looked really poorly animated...--[[User:Wildcards|Wildcards]] 23:49, 25 January 2012 (CST)
:::That's just 90s CGI. We are so spoiled by special effects of today [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 10:39, 21 July 2012 (CDT)

The CGI in Jurassic Park, Terminator 2, etc all looked better than the CGI from AF1, so don't blame it on 90s CGI lol.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 13:29, 21 July 2012 (CDT)

Talk:List of weapons used by U.S. Armed Forces

2012-07-19T16:56:35Z

Ranger01:

Talk:AK-47

2012-06-24T23:10:34Z

Ranger01: /* ID */

__TOC__ 

=='''Image gallery - OTHER variants of the AK-47'''==
Since members get confused by some of the other (usually customized) variants made for movies, we should store the images here, so that all members can easily find a variant that they've seen in a movie or tv show. '''Note: These do NOT belong on the main AK-47 page because they are customized guns for films and not indicative of any 'production gun'.''' They are stored here for viewing and usage on movie pages that require them.

[[Image:AK47WeWereSoldiersHeroGun.jpg‎|thumb|none|500px|'''Actual Screen used AK-47''' from the film [[We Were Soldiers]] (built by Cinema Weaponry) - 7.62x39mm.]]
[[Image:Type56MuzzleBrake.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Norinco Type 56-1 Mocked up to resemble [[AK-74#AKS-74|AKS-74]] - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Norinco56Mockup.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Norinco Type 56 Mocked up to resemble [[AK-74]] - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Type84HybridRifle.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Norinco Type 84S modified with a pig Sticker bayonet, no cleaning rod and milled front end with no detent pin (as seen in ''[[Hollow Point]]'') - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:BellyNorincoType56-1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Custom Norinco Type 56-1 nickel-plated, fitted with ivory furniture and a Romanian AIM-style vertical grip, originally made for the movie ''[[Belly]]'', also seen in ''[[Lord of War]]'' and ''[[Sopranos, The|The Sopranos]]'' - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Zastava M70AB2 with scope.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Zastava M70AB2 with scope - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:AK_open.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Custom-built gold-plated AK carbine from ''[[Lord of War]]'' - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Ak47mw.2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|AKM fitted with Tapco Intrafuse and T6 furniture sets and an [[M16 rifle series#M4/M4A1 Carbine|M4 carbine]] stock and Stock Adapter similar to the one in ''[[Modern Warfare 2]]''.- 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:KrinkovQuadRail.jpg|thumb|none|500px| Krebs Custom Speed Load Krinkov - 7.62x39mm.]]
[[File:AKPDW01.jpg|thumb|none|500px|AKMSU with RIS handguard - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:PolytechGalilSidefolder.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Poly Tech AKS-47 [[Galil]] side-folder - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Wm 634735.jpg|thumb|none|500px|FEG AK-63E (Hungarian version of the AKMS) - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:RD-Maadi.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Maadi ARM (AKM) - 7.62x39mm as used in ''[[Red Dawn]]'' (1984) (image from Long Mountain Outfitters)]]
[[Image:RomanianblackwidowAKfolder.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Romanian AKMS Black Widow - 7.62x39mm.]]
[[Image:Ak-47-weapon-accessories-desert-colourb.jpg|thumb|none|500px|AK-47 with a AR-15 stock and a synthetic handguard - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:AKWITHOUTSTOCK.JPG|thumb|500px|none|Airsoft AK-47 replica without stock - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Romanian-WASR-3.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Romanian WASR-3 - 5.56x45mm]]
[[Image:Zastava_M80.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Zastava M80 - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:PolyTechLegendAK47.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A Poly Technologies Legend AK with original Russian Style front sight, AKM muzzle brake, and bayonet - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Far Cry 3 AK-103.jpg|thumb|none|500px|AK-103 7.62x39mm with side-mounted RIS rail & [[AK-74]] style stock, handguard, and pistol grip as seen in ''[[Far Cry 3]]'']]
[[Image:MW3 AK 47.jpg|thumb|none|500px| AK-47 with synthetic M4 style stock, pistol grip and Hand guard, AK 74 style muzzle brake, and side mounted RIS rail as seen in ''[[Modern Warfare 3]]'' - 7.62x39mm]]
[[File:1romakm47gpwasr10uf1501.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Romanian WASR-10 UF with Tapco magazine - 7.62x39mm]]
[[File:Bulgarian-AR-M4SF.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Arsenal AR-M4SF with red dot sight and stock folded - 5.56x45mm NATO]]
[[File:PM md. 90 Krinkov.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Romanian PM md. 90 Krinkov - 7.62x39mm. Note: this differs from the US import version the [[AK-47#Romanian_AK_Draco_Carbine|Draco]] by its 3 position fire selector, folding stock as standard and darker AKM type palm-swell handguard.]]
[[File:Arsenal-ARM1.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Arsenal SAR-M1 - 5.56x45mm.]]
[[File:King arms ak74 tapco folding stock aeg right.jpg|thumb|none|500px|King Arms AK74 Tapco Folding Stock - Similar to the customized AKM seen in Season 2 of ''Nikita''.]]
[[File:Centre Balanced Systems Standard AKM.jpg|thumb|500px|none|AKM in Centre Balanced Systems stock - 7.62x39mm]]
[[Image:Type56C.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Norinco Type 56C (also known as the QBZ-56C) with 20-round magazine - 7.62x39mm]]
[[File:Zastava M92abx .jpg|thumb|none|501px|Zastava M92 7.62x39mm with 75-round drum magazine, railed handguard, RIS foregrip, side-folding stock, and laser pointer]]
[[Image:Zastava M21 s.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Zastava M21S - 5.56x45mm]]

== The Romanian WASR-3==

Should we have a section for the WASR-3?

:Yeah, I suppose we could do that, since they've appeared in at least three movies that we know of (''[[Casino Royale]]'', ''[[Sahara (2005)|Sahara]]'', and now ''[[Hotel Rwanda]]''). I would also like to do a section for the Romanian AIM series, which appears in ''[[Street Kings]]'' and ''[[44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shoot-out]]''.

::Well thanks to LUMPY, we now know the make and model of the mystery AKs in Casino Royale and Sahara (2005). It's an obscure FEG Hungarian AK variant that was exported to Europe during the 1980s, which is why Sasha Robey has them and We don't. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 00:26, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

== Get A Load of This Beast! ==

Gentlemen, I present to you, Franken-AK!

[http://www.impactguns.com/store/MGC-PW85-000407.html Franken-AK]
:I hate Franken-guns.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
::Ugly. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 18:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Looks like someone took the Type 84S from ''[[Hollow Point]]'' and added some wierd-looking muzzle brake and bleached the furniture. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 05:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

== AKMSU ==

The AKMSU SMG has been produced by the USSR from 1975 to 1979 ans distributed to special forces and paratroopers, but they were in many cases too hard to handle to be used effectively, so many were scrapped. In 1979 they were replaced by the AKS74U and the remaining guns were shipped to allied countries like Iraq. Very hard to find, hollywood armories usually carry foreign copys (From Zastava) or mock-ups made with parts of AKS74Us. Standard AKMSU has a forward grip and under-folding stock.

Info source please? As far as i know AKMSU was never mass-produced by USSR. It was abandoned because of obvious problems -- too short barrel that resulted in unsatisfactory bullet ballistics and quick overheating.

:The comment above stretched the page quite a bit to the right. I edited to fix that. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 19:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

AKMSU 7.62 never produced in the USSR. It is not in any Soviet or Russian book about the Kalashnikov weapons. This weapon is clearly a foreign design [[User:Slow Rider|Slow Rider]] 09:22, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

It was a project for special forces, tankers and that sort of thing. It was cancelled I believe, because the authorities in question felt that the shortened barrel would degrade ballistic performance, the shortened gas system would cause heating issues and the light weight would make the recoil uncontrollable. Odd given that they approved the AKSU-74 later, but all points aside, there were Russian 7.62x39mm assault carbines back then. It just never went into production.

I beg to differ, I know Wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source, but Russian Wikipedia has a page on the SOVIET-produced AKMSU. My Russian is still rudimentary (I'm learning), and I wouldn't trust Google Translate that much, but it pretty much says what the first post here says, except that it was produced in 1959, a whopping 20 years before the 74U! The only reason I'm trusting its existence is because I've seen the gun in the pictures there before. I'm dead certain it's never been featured in any media, but it's worth mentioning here. If anything, that unique pre-AKS-74U flash hider is very interesting. Sources: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%9A%D0%9C%D0%A1%D0%A3 http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/000570/570186.jpg [[User:GreveSparf|GreveSparf]] 22:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

:The wiki page says it was ''developed'', but never went into production. The book doesn't say anything about production, just details the specs. [[User:Sentient6|Sentient6]] 12:14, 15 April 2012 (CDT)

== East German AKs==
Should we have a section for the Mpi-KMS or any East German AK variants because I saw them in Hotel Rwanda and The Hurt Locker, I have no more info because I am new to this site
::Yes, but be sure they really are NVA (East German) AKs. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:37, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

== Zastava M70AB2 ==
I got the picture of the Zastava M70AB2 with standard black pistol grip, should I post it on the main page or keep it here?
[[Image:Zastava M70 AB2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Zastava M70AB2 with standard pistol grip - 7.62x39mm]]

I went ahead and added it, and kept the "Mitchell Arms" version on there as well, since it shows a version that'd likely appear in American productions featuring the weapon. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 06:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

== Vltor Modstock? ==
[[Image:Ak47mw.2.jpg|thumb|none|500px|AK-47 fitted with Tapco Intrafuse and T6 furniture sets and a Vltor Modstock and Stock Adapter.- 7.62x39mm]]

Oh jesus christ. What they have done to that AK ?

It looks more like a typical M4 stock to me. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
::So what? Vltor Modstock sounds cooler.

:::I don't care what "sounds cooler". It's a regular M4 stock, '''not''' a Vltor Modstock. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:35, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Whatever you want to call it the thing looks revolting. Anyone who tries to "tacticool" an AK should be shot in the face by a true AK. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 22:20, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

:Homicidal much? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

anyone know what kind of muzzle brake/flash hider that is--[[User:Anarchy66660|Anarchy66660]] 21:40, 15 March 2012 (CDT)

== AK-101, AK-102, AK-103 etc. ==

Shouldn't all "black AKs" be in the AK-74 page?
They are just AK-74M in different calibres, and they have AK-74M style muzzle brake and plastic side-folding buttstock.

== Draco Pistol ==
Should we make a section for the Romanian Draco Pistol on the AK-47 page or does it get its own article? Please tell me.
:Unless it has been seen in a film then it does not get a mention. If it is a 7.62X39mm AK pistol then yes it goes on this page. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 19:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

==Hungarian AK==
Isn't the Hungarian FEG AK-63 considered a gun that is not custom? It was made in Hungary, but the company that made it has gone bankrupt and is defunct now. Shouldn't the AK-63 get it's own section?

==The Cold War==
Although weapons from Warsaw pact nations were banned from importation to the US during the Cold War. Did any criminals tried smuggling them into the US?
:What would be the point? Criminals aren't gun collectors. They only want guns they can buy for criminal purposes. An AK from China shoots just a good as a real AK from Russia. I suppose Individual weapons WERE brought in during the embargo and were found at crime scenes. In California a North Korean Silenced PPS-43 was found at a drug dealer's house but that could have been a 'not amnesty' pre 68 bringback from Nam or Korea.
A Navy SEAL got 80 into the country before he was caught.... http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-05/us/seal.smuggler_1_special-forces-military-transport-weapons?_s=PM:US
Norinco also tried to sell Type 56s to street gangs if I recall correctly
--[[User:Geckcgt|Geckcgt]] 01:31, 11 June 2012 (CDT)

==Villan weapon==
While I understand the reasons for doing so, I still belive these weapons get a bad deal from Hollywood which always casts them as the "Bad Guy's Gun" even though many nations and rebel groups supported by the U.S. have also used Kalashnikovs.

I think it's because in the real world AKs are the most obtainable assault rifle. It stands to reason that most villains in films would have an AK of some sort. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 13:14, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

Not to mention the 40-some years of films with AK toting commies villains.
Russia donating rifles to anybody calling themselves commie sympathetic freedom fighters didn't help either.
--[[User:Geckcgt|Geckcgt]] 01:28, 11 June 2012 (CDT)

==AK 46, AK 47, AK==
Actualy correct name of the Avtomat Kalashnikova is AK (without 47). AK 46 and AK 47 was esperemental models and serial model is "Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947 year "AK". You also can see it on original NSD (I had photo but now can't find).
Also model called AK now using nowhere, except Africa maybe. This model was quickly changed by AKM, what known in USA as AK 47 7.62х39mm. Only models after AK 74 have numbers in their names.
P.S. Sorry for my terrible english, I whould explain better on esperanto or russian.

== Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater's AMD-65s ==

You forgot to make a video game entree for Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater in the AMD-65 section, the Ocelot Unit uses AMD-65/63 in the game.

== AK-101 and AK-103 ==

Shouldn't they be moved to AK-74 article? They are AK-74M chambered for different rounds.
As far I'm moving AK-101 hence it is practically the same as AK-74 --[[User:RussianTrooper|RussianTrooper]] 19:42, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
::No, all 5.56x45mm AK variants are on this page along with the original 7.62x39mm. All 5.45x39mm AK variants are on the AK74 page. Do NOT change it. Thanks. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

== Franken-AK ==
Stumbled across this monstrosity while surfing the other day. Only thing I can think to say is...WTF??? --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 21:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
::That's not an AK, but a SAIGA (with a probably Photoshop Job) mpm

look fake

[[Image:WTF1.JPG]]

:- Well, MPM would know photoshop jobs. :b Lol, that's is the most fucked up shit I've seen in a while. Bah! [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

:::That's only slightly 'shopped. I'll post the original. -protoAuthor 21:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:K178977 k79867 saiga.jpg|thumb|none|500px|The original]]

== Question about AK actions ==

I was wondering, when firing an AK-series rifle, does the bolt lock back in the open position after the last round as with [[M16 rifle series|M16-series]] rifles, or does it come back closed again? [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 22:24, 6 March 2011 (MSK)
: Normally, NO! But the Yugoslav models had a modified bolt that when used with a Yugoslav magazine with a modified follower, would lock the bolt open on the last round. BUT, when the magazine was removed, the bolt closed anyway. The bolt would not lock back if another magazine type was used. Sometimes a notch was cut into the selector to hold the bolt back but this only worked when the selector was set to safe after you pulled the bolt back. ''Wraith''

== What AK is this? ==

I'm currently doing some recapping for a big edit of the [[Ultimate Force]] page and came across this gun:
[[File:Vlcsnap-2011-03-30-16h26m46s158.jpg|thumb|600px|none|]]
As far as I can tell, it has a stamped upper and lower receiver, folding stock, ported gas tube, slanted muzzle and open front sights. I can't find a variant on this page that fits, so is this a franken-gun, or something not listed here? Also ,the gun does actually fire blanks so it isn't an airsoft gun or replica. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:34, 30 March 2011 (CDT)

Looks like a AKMS ([http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/AK-47#AKMS]). You would have to look at receiver markings to get a more detailed description. ''Wraith''

:It's an AKMS, but yeah, it has a ported gas tube and smooth front hand guard (which are features found on the AKS-47). I would say it's an AKMS with AKS-47 parts. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:31, 31 March 2011 (CDT)

::We recently discovered a Hungarian AKM that has the AK47/Type 56 style gas tube. It's a FEG variant that was only exported to Europe and not the U.S> during the 1980s which explains why British armorers have it and American ones do not. Check out ([http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/AK-47#FEG NGM-81]). Note that nearly everyone removed the ugly factory PKM flash hider and replaced it with something more conventional. The underfolder version of this gun was called the NGV-81. :) Since the NGM-81 was built in 5.56mm only, I will investigate further if the Hungarians built any other AKS from this particular lineage, chambered in 7.62x39mm. IF so then we're in business. I will let everyone know if I find something. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 00:30, 1 September 2011 (CDT)
:::Thanks, did a bit of looking at other FEG variants, and it seems a pretty close match for the under-folding variant of the SA-85. Only difference I can see is the different colour hand-guards. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 03:53, 1 September 2011 (CDT)
:::[[File:FEG SA-85.jpg|thumb|500px|none|FEG SA-85 - 7.62x39mm]]
I know this might be slightly off-topic, but the guy in that shot looks like he's wearing German flecktarn camo used by the Bundeswehr. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 21:35, 10 June 2011 (CDT)

Could be an AKS47 with an AKM muzzle break (is that what they're called?) --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 13:17, 17 June 2011 (CDT)
: If it was originally an AKS it would have a milled rather than stamped receiver. Also, the front sight is of the AKM type. I agree with MT2008 that it is an AKM with some parts changed. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:00, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

::It certainly looks to have been cannibalised from several; by the looks of things, the gas tube is from a different gun to the lower handguard, for a start (check out how the top and bottom of the handguard aren't anywhere near the same colour or level of wear). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 16:08, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:::Too me, it's just a AKMS with some parts (gas tube, lower handguard) from a AK-47. AK parts are mixed and matched a lot. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:28, 17 June 2011 (CDT)
::::I think that statement is incorrect on the AK-47 versus AKM, if that is what you are talking about. not sure what you meant, but different AK-47 parts are interchangeable with other AK-47 guns and different AKM parts are interchangeable with other AKM guns, but the AKM Parts are NOT easily interchangeable with the AK-47. Though it can happen and has, it's a hassle. If you use the AK-47/Type 56 style gas tube with the gas relief holes in it, you CANNOT use the AKM gas block (which has the gas relief holes in it's tube ring). You have to use the solid AK-47/Type 56 style gas block in order for the gun to cycle. Also the gas tube of the AK-47 doesn't fit the AKM (unless a gunsmiths does a lot of modifying). I know, I've tried and without changing, milling, grinding or welding the items, they just don't fit into each other at all. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:01, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::Okay, I see. Thank you for the brain nourishment. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:34, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

==Question about AK Part==

I was wondering, what's the thin metal tube that runs ''underneath'' the barrel of AK-series rifles called? I know it's not part of the gas system, as that's on top and the weapon still seems to be able to operate without it. Any help figuring this out would be appreciated. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:58, 13 July 2011 (CDT)

:That's the cleaning rod. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:23, 13 July 2011 (CDT)

== What do you guys think? ==

Last week, I was watching a Youtube video of a German WWII re-enactor firing an STG-44. I decided to post a comment: "The AK's Grandfather", and got multiple thumbs up (not really important, except for what happened later). What happend was I got some comments some saying things along the lines of:

1. You should have wrote AK's FATHER since there was no inbetween model.

2. Kalashnikov didn't look at the STG at ALL when designing the AK.

And then I got this: "@1Morey The MP44 most know by CoD fags as STG 44 was a good weapon, the problem is that it reached the warfare in 1945 basicly in the end of the war, so it was a failure, and the russians made the Ak years after. The Ak 47 was a failure too, it was just for military and it was on function only 1 year, then they made the Akm 47 wich alot of cod fags confuses it with the Ak 47. Please, seriously, do some research, Sorry for my bad english, p.s: I dont think you know too much about guns." - quoted by Andre232323232332323.

What do you guys think. It really seems to contradict everything I have read about the AK, and as far as I know, there is no such thing as the "AKM-47", I have heard of AK-47 and AKM, but not a AKM-47. I'm guessing this youtuber is whacked. I just want to know what you think. - [[User:1morey]] December 3, 2011 10:28 PM (EST)

Just an idiot who over uses the word "Codfag" and thinks he knows alot about firearms---P226 22:02, 3 December 2011 (CST)

: 1) AKM-47 is a crazy fantasy. 2) STG-44 is not a grandfather of AK. For example they has different system of locking bolts, besides STG-44 has a different way disassembly - it folded like a shotgun. Wikipedia says: "The AK-47 is best described as a hybrid of previous rifle technology innovations: the trigger, double locking lugs and unlocking raceway of the M1 Garand/M1 carbine, the safety mechanism of the John Browning designed Remington Model 8 rifle, and the gas system and layout of the Sturmgewehr 44. Kalashnikov's team had access to all of these weapons and had no need to "reinvent the wheel", though he denied that his design was based on the German Sturmgewehr 44 assault rifle.Kalashnikov himself observed: "A lot of [Soviet Army soldiers] ask me how one can become a constructor, and how new weaponry is designed. These are very difficult questions. Each designer seems to have his own paths, his own successes and failures. But one thing is clear: before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good appreciation of everything that already exists in this field. I myself have had many experiences confirming this to be so" --[[User:Flexo|Flexo]] 04:39, 24 January 2012 (CST)

== What AK is this? Part2 ==

What model of AK do this?
[[File:Equip armspic16.jpg|thumb|600px|none]]
This AK is something that appeared in the [[Ghost Squad]].
[[File:Jpn airsoft AKU.jpg|thumb|600px|none|Tokyo Marui's airsoft "AK47 β-Spetsnaz"]]
I think the Japanese airsoft Perhaps this good?--[[User:KINKI'boy|KINKI'boy]] 14:05, 24 January 2012 (JST)

==Need help on an ID==
I'm finishing ''[[Beyond Borders]]'' right now, and I'm stuck on an ID. The Khmer Rouge in the film have these AKs with milled receivers, but with the hooded front sight. It does fire once in the film. It could've been CGI, but I think I saw an ejecting shell as well. The scene was filmed in Thailand. Any ideas? --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 10:53, 31 January 2012 (CST)
:Does it have a pig sticker bayonet, or the bracket for one, as the original [[Type 56]] had a [http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as49/type56old.jpg milled receiver]. It could still be a Type 56 even without the bayonet, but having it would be pretty definitive. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:15, 31 January 2012 (CST)
::Alas, no bayonet, but it looks like it may have the bracket. Thanks. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 11:20, 31 January 2012 (CST)
:::Does it have a forward facing "L" shaped bit of metal under the front sight block, as this is the bracket that would remain. Do you have a screenshot? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:32, 31 January 2012 (CST)
[[File:BeyondB_T56_SKS_01.jpg|thumb||none|600px|This shot shows the milled receiver and the hooded front sight.]]
Yeah, they are early Type 56s. The bayonet is removed but bracket is still there. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:43, 31 January 2012 (CST)

They also have hooded front sights, indicative features of the Type 56. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 18:24, 27 February 2012 (CST)

== change ==

Due to the length, divide it into several pages? All the models official leave (AK-47, AKS-47, AKM, AKMS, AKMSU, AK101, AK-102 AK-103, AK104, AK-108). The rest can be placed on other sites wedłóg their businesses. Zastawa and Norinoco and Bulgarian Arsenal in separate articles. --[[User:Mateogala|Mateogala]] 07:42, 3 April 2012 (CDT)

== Stock Fold ==

I'm trying to make an ID right now, and I have a question: does the AKMSU stock fold only to the left or to the right as well? I've only seen to the left so far, but that would sort of screw left-handed shooters. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 22:17, 10 June 2012 (CDT)

I would think it only folds to the left, fold right and it interferes with the charging handle
--[[User:Geckcgt|Geckcgt]] 01:23, 11 June 2012 (CDT)

==ID==
I need help with an ID. It's got an SVD-style stock, the rails attach to the side. I can't tell what caliber since it's using a smaller magazine. Stamped receiver, open top front sight, no holes in the hand guard. The scene was filmed in Romania, for what it's worth. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 19:01, 15 June 2012 (CDT)
[[Image:AG_AK_01.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
[[Image:AG_AK_02.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]

MAK-90 with a PSL stock?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 13:19, 24 June 2012 (CDT)
:It looks like the MAK-90 has a closed front sight. And it seems odd they'd bring a post-ban AK into a country that has to be overflowing with AKs. Thank you though. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 14:01, 24 June 2012 (CDT)
::I think I found it. WASR-10 w/Dragunov stock? --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 14:12, 24 June 2012 (CDT)
:::Or rather, the [http://www.ak-47.us/gear/Gear_Review_Detail.php?g=gear1141107738 WUM 1]. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 14:30, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

Note: Running on 2 hours sleep= brain farts hah.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 18:10, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

Talk:AK-47

2012-06-24T18:19:11Z

Ranger01: /* ID */

Talk:Battleship (2012)

2012-06-02T06:06:02Z

Ranger01: /* This is what I'm hoping */

...Really? So, how long until that [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHY8NKj3RKs Minesweeper movie] comes out? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:24, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

Wow. Just wow. I realize Hollywood is running out of original ideas, but have they run out of movies to remake and video games to base on so quick that they're basing movies on ''board games''? What's next? Chutes & Ladders? Sorry? Scrabble? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:07, 22 August 2011 (CDT)
:Are you talking about the same people who made a four movie, billion dollar franchise from an amusement park ride? (Pirates of the Caribbean.) --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 16:14, 22 August 2011 (CDT)
::At least the PotC ride had some personality. Battleship is a two-sided tray where you try to "sink" tiny plastic ships by guessing grid numbers. And they're making an ''alien invasion'' flick of it! Battleship had zilch whatsoever to do with aliens. It's like making an Iraq War movie and calling it ''Xbox: The Movie''. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:09, 23 August 2011 (CDT)
:::Mind you, PotC is still around because it worked. Disney also tried Country Bears and Haunted Mansion movies, and they didn't. I'm with you, when I heard that they wanted to make a movie out of the game Battleship, I thought it was ludicrous, but if you just think of it as an alien attack movie that just happens to involve a battleship, it's not as silly anymore. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 17:55, 23 August 2011 (CDT)
::::Wait, wait, wait... A thought just stuck me here about this upcoming film, folks. Usually when a movie gets made about a children's board game, it is rushed out on a direct-to-video/DVD release, and a majority of the time, it's all cartoony, campy, silly, and targeted at the children that are under 7 years old, very much like how the Candy Land films from the 90s during that board game's popularity peak were all campy, cartoony, and for the kids under 7. But from what I got when seeing this trailer, is that this film is an ''updated'' version of the board game, and it's appealing to the grownups who played and were fans of this board game when they were kids (like me for instance). It doesn't look like a film that's appealing to the 7 year old audience, but rather, to the grownups who want to take a trip down memory lane and see a more 'modernized' and 'cooler' version of their favorite board game when they were children. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 09:18, 26 August 2011 (CDT)
:::::Here's the thing though: I don't see any connection to the actual game itself other than the fact that they went out of their way to put a battleship in it. They probably could've gotten away with calling [[Under Siege]] "Battleship" if they really wanted to. Unless there's actually a scene where someone fires the battleship's guns by sticking a little peg in a hole, I don't see how it's related to the game. (And I think this has cartoony down pat.) --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 09:53, 26 August 2011 (CDT)

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1468290/ Well, we now know what's next]. I assume that the bad pilot who just spins in circles in the middle will die and leave it all up to a young maverick who knows his advanced space fighter has a boost button and that if you hit the edge of space you come out on the other side. In the end he enters "DIK" on the high score table and is remembered forever because he saved an area of empty space from vector graphics and annoying noises. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:34, 11 May 2012 (CDT)

Hate to break it but, A Monopoly film is in the works, and a remake of Clue. Whatever next? Parcheesi? Sorry? Candlyland?-[[User:The Gunslinger 3|The Gunslinger 3]] 20:17, 31 May 2012 (CDT)

==This is what I'm hoping==
(a) There is some sort of explanation why the US Navy UN-retires one or more battleships for a military exercise.
(b) Based on the trailer, the alien device creates a force field bubble that encompasses a huge portion of the Pacific (including the entire state of Hawaii if I'm not mistaken)
(c) The aliens force the US Navy into some sort of 'duel to the death' under gladiator type restrictions (why I don't know).
(d) Ultimately after conventional battle, some sort of event occurs where the ships are blinded from seeing each other and each ship has to launch a salvo based on where they 'think' the enemy is.
(e) The film ends when the hero ship ultimately sinks the last Alien war machine ... but then this assumes that we've lost thousands of Naval and Marine Corp personnel from all the other ships that were destroyed, which would SUCK.
''Just some musing that's all. In all probability, knowing Hollywood, NONE of the obvious explanations will be offered and fans will be annoyed by the lack of logic in the script, but what else is new?'' [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 13:22, 26 August 2011 (CDT)
:Well MPM, you are correct on the part where the trailer showcased the forcefield encompassing a huge portion of the Pacific including Hawaii. And I guess as far as everything else is concerned with this film, chances are it will be in the same vein as the Transformers films (since both Transformers and Battleship are owned by Hasbro); a 2 hour toy commercial. However, instead of it being about giant robots fighting, it'll be about naval warships blowing the shit out of each other. I just hope they include the classic line that the boardgame is known for ("Aargh! You sunk my Battleship!"). Also, if my assumptions serve me right, this movie is gonna be a giant advertisement tool that the U.S. Navy ''might'' use to get more and more people to enlist in that branch of the United States military. Just wait and see, there will probably be a huge increase in enlistment for the U.S. Navy after the debut of this film ;) --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 10:49, 16 September 2011 (CDT)
::*cough*''[[Top Gun|TopGun]]''*cough* [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 13:26, 16 September 2011 (CDT)
:::Exactly! --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 21:42, 16 September 2011 (CDT)
::::Didn't ''Battle: Los Angeles'' also cause an influx in recruit numbers for the Marine Corps? I vaguely remember reading something about this, but I don't recall where or when. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 08:48, 19 September 2011 (CDT)
:::::Nope, I believe it was in your overactive imagination! LOL! jk But in the case of [[Top Gun]], the U.S. navy did have a huge spike in recruitment. What I found funny was that there were guys I knew who enlisted in the Navy to become 'Top Gun' pilots, without realizing that (a) you have to get into the Naval Aviator program, which is damned hard to do, (b) you have to be really good, in fact, tops in your field and (c) it's a total crapshoot whether or not you get picked to be sent to Top Gun in the first place, even if you fulfill the first two requirements. A lot of guys with 'stars in their eyes' ended up being either logistical support in the bowels of an aircraft carrier or a minor logistical job at a land based Naval Air Station. ;) Doh!!!!!! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:04, 19 September 2011 (CDT)

I'm just watching it in case Liam Neeson says, "You sank my battleship."
- [[User:Scattergun|Scattergun]]
::Apparently, from those who have supposedly seen it, that phrase IS UTTERED in the film. :D [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:11, 7 May 2012 (CDT)
:"It's on J-10." "But nobody ever puts anything on J-10!" "THAT'S WHY IT'LL BE THERE!" [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:42, 7 May 2012 (CDT)

Just saw this movie for myself, and well... it's a good film as far as the visuals, effects and battle sequences go, especially the U.S.S. Missouri scenes, now that was an EPIC battle, and it was a nice tribute/salute to all the retired vets who served on that ship. But the story? Well, a little lacking... but then again, that didn't surprise anyone. Also, it's really disappointing that there's NO submarines featured AT ALL in this film, cause then they could have been a real help against the alien threat through underwater combat... oh well. In closing, this is yet another "popcorn entertainment" film that yes, is a glorified, over-the-top toy commercial/subtle Navy recruitment ad/tribute to the United States Navy and to all it's active and retired servicemen. And I liked it. --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 02:30, 26 May 2012 (CDT)

So now we got a Navy SEALs movie ([[Act of Valor]]), an MC movie ([[Battle: Los Angeles]]), a Navy movie ([[Battleship]]), and an AF movie ([[Top Gun]]). Hmm, I wonder what's next. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 13:12, 30 May 2012 (CDT)
:''[[Top Gun]]'' was naval aviation, not AF. The AF has... ''Tranformers''? Basically, the Navy gets around. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 13:45, 30 May 2012 (CDT)
And Army: [[Black Hawk Down]]?
::Hmm... well, I guess there could be a movie that focuses solely on the National Guard branch of the U.S. Armed Forces? --[[User:ThatoneguyJosh|ThatoneguyJosh]] 00:39, 2 June 2012 (CDT)

[[Southern Comfort]] is about some LA Nat. Guard troops...-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 01:06, 2 June 2012 (CDT)

== Minigun ==

I don't think the minigun is a Dillon, as it has the wrong berrel set-up. I think it might be an earlier Garwood Industries M134G. The earlier versions had the triple barrel clamp with solid flash hider unlike the Dillon which I have only ever seen with the single barrel clamp. Or does anyone know if the earlier Dillon barrel clamps were the same design as the Garwoods?

[[File:Early Garwood M134G.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Garwood Industries M134G - 7.62x51mm NATO]]

:According to Navweapons, the Navy uses [http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_30-cal_GAU17.htm M134Ds]. It may be the first one on [http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_30-cal_GAU17_pics.htm this page.] --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 18:05, 18 November 2011 (CST)
::The first one on that page is a regular Dillon M134D. Note how the barrels on a DIllon have 1 thick ring in the middle and a flash hider on the end, as opposed to the movie gun which has the thick ring, two thinner rings and then the flash hider, like the M134G pic above. I have never seen anything apart from a single clamp Dillon or a GAU-17A being used by the real US Navy, so this gun caught my eye. Could be a standard GE M134 barrel clamp with a fake (and by fake I mean armourer made, will serve the same purpose as it is just a cylinder) flash hider attached. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:28, 18 November 2011 (CST)
:::Also, just checked the Garwood website, and it isn't the early models that have the 4 flanged barrel clamp but it is a standard option for better heat dissipation. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:37, 18 November 2011 (CST)
::The Miniguns used in this film were old GE's upgraded by Garwood Industries. --[[User:Phoenixent|phoenixent]] 19:55, 18 November 2011 (CST)

== Movie miniguns ==

You have a good eye, all of the latest movies which incorporate minigun's are either live M-134G weapons manufactured at Garwood Industries of Display minigun's manufactured specifically for the movie industry. The vast majority of movie weapons are supplied by Independent Studio Services (ISS) based in California. ISS has purchased several live minigun's and Display minigun's from G.I. for their support of the latest movies. Battle Ship 2012, Transformers, Green Hornet, Green Lantern, and the latest Predator (Backpack included) movie was supported by Garwood Industries and utilize the G.I. M-134G exclusively. The Garwood Industries M-134G has been US Military proven to be superior in performance and reliability and is used in the movie industries primarily for the fact that our system handles the blanks used in the filming without jams or failures.
Garwood Industries components are being integrated into the US DOD minigun program to upgrade the old Dillon/GE style weapons.
And yes, the version pictured is one of our earlier versions from 2004.
Regards,
Tracy Garwood
President
Garwood Industries

::Thanks for the response but not all of the Miniguns used in the latest films are Garwood Industries. Independent Studio Services gives that line that they supply all the movies. The company I do work for an developed parts for the Miniguns to work at perfectly on blanks has four times as many M134's than ISS. We supplied the M134's for [[We Were Soldiers]],[[Death Race]], [[Mr. & Mrs. Smith]],[[Terminator Salvation]], [[G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra]], [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen]], [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon]], [[A Man Apart]], Superman 2 and R.I.P.D. We pride ourselves on having a higher quality and a lower failure rates than ISS on our M134 weapon system.--[[User:Phoenixent|Steve]] 19:37, 12 December 2011 (CST)

:::Thank you Tracy, and I gotta pipe in here too. ISS claims they do all the movies (and they do a TON of movies) but others have mini guns as well (Cinema Weaponry for example) and I don't think everyone elses' miniguns are just sitting around all year long. ;) But it is nice to hear from a firearms industry rep. I welcome contributors from various companies to help us get better and more accurate information. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 21:37, 4 February 2012 (CST)

== HK 416 in the third trailer ==

In the german [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO4CScx0HwA&feature=g-all-u&context=G274acbdFAAAAAAAAAAA trailer] for Battleship at 1:30 you can see in a short flashing sequence a HK AR15 style gun. In my opinion it may be an HK 416. The HK markings are good to identify. I took a screenshot which you can see [http://www.dragonwolves.de/files/HK416-battleship3.jpg here].

==Weapons==
I saw some behind the scenes footage before the Avengers movie, there was an FN MAG/ M240 (M240G?) and a 25mm Bushmaster. Anyone scene the movie yet?--[[User:Mandolin|Mandolin]] 18:18, 6 May 2012 (CDT)

==HK416 used by the Navy?==
Ok correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure the Navy were never issued HK416s. -[[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]]
::You'll have to see the movie for the answers to a lot of your 'gotchas' ;) [[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]]. The HK416 is used by the Hawaii County Sheriff's department in the movie, not the Navy. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 16:16, 22 May 2012 (CDT)

Yeah, you'll find that for a lot of movies with military portrayals. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes, meh. Also this is a sci fi movie. I think we can forgo worrying about if the weapons they got the Navy using were actually issued. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:42, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

Regular Navy, no. My brother does search and seizure and is generally armed with a Mk.18. I can see DEVGRU (SEAL Team Six or whatever they call themselves these days) using the 416 and I'm pretty sure they have, but normal Navy personnel would most likely be armed with an M4/M16 or an M14. --[[User:DeltaOne|DeltaOne]] 06:07, 10 May 2012 (CDT)

:There's really no need to think too much about it. This is a movie. The HK416 is being used in ''Battleship'' because it's currently a trendy weapon in Hollywood, not because it would be issued to Naval personnel in real life. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 11:07, 10 May 2012 (CDT)

Oh I was just asking because I knew some parts of the US Military used them but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the answer. :) -[[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]]

Just an aside to the description, but the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group was forced by the Army to turn in their 416s back in 2008, so they no longer use it. --[[User:DeltaOne|DeltaOne]] 04:26, 11 May 2012 (CDT)

Irrelevant as this is a movie, but the SEALs do use the HK416. It was widely reported that when SEAL Team Six killed Osama Bin Laden in 2011 they were armed with HK416 carbines. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:09, 11 May 2012 (CDT)

You know what else the Navy doesn't use? Battleships. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:23, 11 May 2012 (CDT)
::I also recently saw the movie. I actually REALLY LIKED it. The US Navy uses their latest missile frigates and destroyers during RIMPAC. the only time we see "Big Mo" is when the survivors of the destroyed USS JOHN PAUL JONES use it for one suicide mission against an alien ship off the coast of Oahu. I liked the fact that in the beginning of the movie, the NAVY has a ceremony and honors the largest surviving group of the former retired Sailors from the decommissioned Missouri, all old men. The battleship is sitting in Pearl Harbor as a museum (kinda like the Galactica was in Battlestar Galactica) Thus they had a group of experienced 'old men' who volunteered to show all the young navy guys how to work the old battleship. The only plot hole that was too big to ignore was why they would still have live munitions for the 16 inch guns on the ship when in the movie, the USS Missouri is a museum and tourist attraction (as it is in real life). [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 16:12, 22 May 2012 (CDT)

At least the Navy is actually '''in a movie'''. Usually in movies with the military in them usually focuses on the SEALs, Marines, or even Army Rangers (not that there is anything wrong with that). -[[User:Mr.Ice|Mr.Ice]]

-Saw the Movie and the H&K 416 is not used by the navy. It was found in a Hawaii Sheriff Dept vehicle. the Navy individuals used M4s with Acogs(not that made much sense, since they were CQB inside the ship) and a shotgun that I didn't get a good look at. The 416 had no attachments just BUIS that were not H&K Diopter sites. Kinda nice to see an AR platform not loaded with accessories -insertjjs

Hate to break it but, A Monopoly film is in the works, and a remake of Clue. Whatever next? Parcheesi? Sorry? Candlyland?-[[User:The Gunslinger 3|The Gunslinger 3]] 20:17, 31 May 2012 (CDT)
:This movie has tanked at the box office, which may kill off any future board game movies. But before you condemn them as a whole, remember, ''[[Clue]]'' was GREAT. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 20:24, 31 May 2012 (CDT)

Talk:Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

2012-04-22T22:12:20Z

Ranger01: /* First Impressions */

==First Impressions==
When I first heard they were releasing a new Counter-Strike, I was ecstatic. Then I read it will be released on consoles as well, then I was disappointed. I still thought they could pull it off, but then I saw there will be cross platform play. Now I'm not so sure. You guy's thoughts?--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 01:12, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
:Well, CS 1.6 and CS:S were obviously the best. When I first heard about CS:GO, I was like "Hmmm, Okay." but then I was like "Wait, what? Where's Half-Life: Episode 3?", because seriously, though, what's the deal? Every year, Valve announcing on a new game, not including EP3, which people are waiting for it the most since the release of EP2. I don't really have HUGE problem with the new CS, but it looks a bit like those free MMOFPS games like War Rock, Combat Arms, etc. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 05:20, 28 August 2011 (CDT)

I swear 99.9% of actual Valve employees are working on TF2 items... The newest games they've made (excluding Portal 2) have been done by separate companies (IE CS:S updates and CS:GO being done by Hidden Path Entertainment). I wouldn't be surprised if HL(ep)3 is made by a 3rd party company (pun not intended).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 15:49, 22 April 2012 (CDT)

I've never played CS before and the graphics and look of most of the weapons (particularly the M933) are nothing short of spot on. Aside from the mention of left side ejection ports (which this one doesn't have, I know), how is it in terms of realism? Are there fire selectors? Is the +1 in the chamber tracked? And all that other good stuff. I can tell from screenshots that ammo is tracked in number of mags rather than by each individual bullet. Most importantly, does it have a single-player campaign or is it strictly multi-player? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:55, 22 April 2012 (CDT)

As far as the originals go (CS, CS: Condition Zero, CS:Source) they are rather unrealistic honestly, very "arcadey". No +1, no fire selectors, no iron sights, etc... I have not played the Global Offensive beta (doesn't really interest me) but from videos and talking to people who have played it, it seems to be pretty much the same.[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 17:12, 22 April 2012 (CDT)

== M4A1 ==

The in-world model and purchase icon is correct for the M4A1, but on the first-person image it looks like an M933. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 06:31, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
:I noticed that too when I saw the trailer, the world model appears to CS:S' M4A1 so it's most likely a place-holder, I think your right about it being a M933. Right now I modding the heck out of the weapons in my recently rebought CS:S, mostly just HQ, '''right side ejecting''', versions of the default weapons, lol. It saddens me a bit that they replaced the USP Tactical with the P2000, I have nothing against the P2000, but a 9mm P2000 is not a .45 USP Tactical. :\ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 11:39, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
::Right about the USP, not to mention that it looks better than its half-step-brother P2000. But what the hell is this game anyways?! They change the AUG A1 to A3, P228 to P250 (*sadface*) , add the taser and release it for 50 dollars ''again''? Are they nuts?! Keeping all the guns and adding new ones would be reasonable, but this... this looks like a mod for CS:S, well except that mods are usually free. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:01, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
:::I was hoping that they would make the P228 a P229 or SIG Pro, but I guess the P250 is okay. When I first saw the P2000 in the trailer, it took me a while to realize what it was (it looked really round-y) and then I thought it was a P30. I think they could have updated the graphics a LOT more while keeping the CS feel.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 16:16, 28 August 2011 (CDT)

==Glock 17==

Are you sure it's the 17? The gun looks small, like a compact. However, I have no idea whether it's possible to convert a Glock 19 to full auto... [[User:Sentient6|Sentient6]] 12:57, 22 April 2012 (CDT)
:Whether it is possible in real life rarely has anything to do with guns in games. This gun is a mix, having the slide and frame lenth of a 17, but the grip of a 26 (only the subcompact pistols have the cut out in the bottom of the grip for a flush fitting magazine). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 15:29, 22 April 2012 (CDT)

== Should I get this? ==

The game looks fun, and I know it's not just an updated version of CS or CS:S (there are some new game modes, I've heard). Do any of you think it's good, or would you recommend it? [[User:Jeddostotle7|Jeddostotle7]] 1:42, 22 April 2012 (PST)

Talk:Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

2012-04-22T20:49:13Z

Ranger01: /* First Impressions */

==First Impressions==
When I first heard they were releasing a new Counter-Strike, I was ecstatic. Then I read it will be released on consoles as well, then I was disappointed. I still thought they could pull it off, but then I saw there will be cross platform play. Now I'm not so sure. You guy's thoughts?--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 01:12, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
:Well, CS 1.6 and CS:S were obviously the best. When I first heard about CS:GO, I was like "Hmmm, Okay." but then I was like "Wait, what? Where's Half-Life: Episode 3?", because seriously, though, what's the deal? Every year, Valve announcing on a new game, not including EP3, which people are waiting for it the most since the release of EP2. I don't really have HUGE problem with the new CS, but it looks a bit like those free MMOFPS games like War Rock, Combat Arms, etc. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 05:20, 28 August 2011 (CDT)

I swear 99.9% of actual Valve employees are working on TF2 items... The newest games they've made (excluding Portal 2) have been done by separate companies (IE CS:S updates and CS:GO being done by Hidden Path Entertainment). I wouldn't be surprised if HL(ep)3 is made by a 3rd party company (pun not intended).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 15:49, 22 April 2012 (CDT)

== M4A1 ==

The in-world model and purchase icon is correct for the M4A1, but on the first-person image it looks like an M933. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 06:31, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
:I noticed that too when I saw the trailer, the world model appears to CS:S' M4A1 so it's most likely a place-holder, I think your right about it being a M933. Right now I modding the heck out of the weapons in my recently rebought CS:S, mostly just HQ, '''right side ejecting''', versions of the default weapons, lol. It saddens me a bit that they replaced the USP Tactical with the P2000, I have nothing against the P2000, but a 9mm P2000 is not a .45 USP Tactical. :\ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 11:39, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
::Right about the USP, not to mention that it looks better than its half-step-brother P2000. But what the hell is this game anyways?! They change the AUG A1 to A3, P228 to P250 (*sadface*) , add the taser and release it for 50 dollars ''again''? Are they nuts?! Keeping all the guns and adding new ones would be reasonable, but this... this looks like a mod for CS:S, well except that mods are usually free. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:01, 28 August 2011 (CDT)
:::I was hoping that they would make the P228 a P229 or SIG Pro, but I guess the P250 is okay. When I first saw the P2000 in the trailer, it took me a while to realize what it was (it looked really round-y) and then I thought it was a P30. I think they could have updated the graphics a LOT more while keeping the CS feel.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 16:16, 28 August 2011 (CDT)

==Glock 17==

Are you sure it's the 17? The gun looks small, like a compact. However, I have no idea whether it's possible to convert a Glock 19 to full auto... [[User:Sentient6|Sentient6]] 12:57, 22 April 2012 (CDT)
:Whether it is possible in real life rarely has anything to do with guns in games. This gun is a mix, having the slide and frame lenth of a 17, but the grip of a 26 (only the subcompact pistols have the cut out in the bottom of the grip for a flush fitting magazine). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 15:29, 22 April 2012 (CDT)

== Should I get this? ==

The game looks fun, and I know it's not just an updated version of CS or CS:S (there are some new game modes, I've heard). Do any of you think it's good, or would you recommend it? [[User:Jeddostotle7|Jeddostotle7]] 1:42, 22 April 2012 (PST)

Talk:Magnum P.I.

2012-04-19T02:52:56Z

Ranger01: /* No Need to Know */

== Magnum's ".45" ==

Reading the little information about Magnum's Colt Government starting out as a .45 and then being switched to a 9mm doesn't hold water to me. In the pilot episode there is clearly a line going down the magazine which if I remember correctly is a signature of a Colt 1911 pistol being chambered in 9mm. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 10:26, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

== Dectonics Compact ==
Is it just me or does the muzzle look to be ungodly huge for such a small weapon? --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 09:28, 6 March 2011 (MSK)
Agreed. I mean, it ''might'' just be the camera angle, but damn... [[User:Acora|Acora]] 11:03, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Possiblly a .45. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 01:46, 7 March 2011 (MSK)
:Well I know it's a .45 I'm just saying it seems larger than normal for even a .45's muzzle diameter.--[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 02:58, 7 March 2011 (MSK)
::It has a bull barrel (no bushing) that's why it seems overly large.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 05:31, 7 March 2011 (MSK)

==No Need to Know==
In the season 1 episode 5 a female character pulls a silenced revolver on Magnum. The gun clearly has a suppressor fitted but when she drops it the suppressor is gone. The only revolver I know that would make use of a suppressor is the gas sealed Nagant M1895. Can you tell if it is the one in the episode? These captures are not the best but the gun is never in a focused shot. http://postimage.org/image/w2fs5z3ct/ --[[User:Ristipiste|Ristipiste]] 18:05, 18 April 2012 (EEST)
:It isn't a Nagant as this revolver has regular fluting on the cylinder. Also it looks like it has a 5 shot cylinder as opposed to the 7 in a Nagant. I would ''guess'' it is an I or J frame S&W, but there really isn't enough to go on. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:28, 18 April 2012 (CDT)

Definitely not a Nagant, I think its a Colt Det. Special or something (I think I can make out a Colt Cyl. release).-Ranger01

Five shots though. S&W 36? --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 19:59, 18 April 2012 (CDT)

Yea, it might be a 36. The release might just be my eyes playing tricks on me. (I forgot to sign my last comment)-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 21:52, 18 April 2012 (CDT)

== Steyr SSG 69 ==

If memory serves Magnum uses the [[Steyr SSG 69|Steyr SSG 69 PII]] version noted by the dual triggers. In the scene where he is lining up for the shot you clearly see him pulling the first trigger before moving to the second for his shot. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 19:39, 18 April 2012 (CDT)

== Single Barrel Shotgun in "Skin Deep" actually a Winchester Model 1897 ==

Okay, I'm gonna come out and say it. That Single Barrel Shotgun in the episode "Skin Deep" is a Winchester Model 1897. I've seen this episode. There are shots where you get a clear view of the gun in that episode. If you look closely under the barrel in that screencap, you can make out the end of the magazine tube. --[[User:500Magnum|500Magnum]]

Talk:Magnum P.I.

2012-04-19T00:57:53Z

Ranger01: /* No Need to Know */

== Magnum's ".45" ==

Reading the little information about Magnum's Colt Government starting out as a .45 and then being switched to a 9mm doesn't hold water to me. In the pilot episode there is clearly a line going down the magazine which if I remember correctly is a signature of a Colt 1911 pistol being chambered in 9mm. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 10:26, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

== Dectonics Compact ==
Is it just me or does the muzzle look to be ungodly huge for such a small weapon? --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 09:28, 6 March 2011 (MSK)
Agreed. I mean, it ''might'' just be the camera angle, but damn... [[User:Acora|Acora]] 11:03, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

Possiblly a .45. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 01:46, 7 March 2011 (MSK)
:Well I know it's a .45 I'm just saying it seems larger than normal for even a .45's muzzle diameter.--[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 02:58, 7 March 2011 (MSK)
::It has a bull barrel (no bushing) that's why it seems overly large.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 05:31, 7 March 2011 (MSK)

==No Need to Know==
In the season 1 episode 5 a female character pulls a silenced revolver on Magnum. The gun clearly has a suppressor fitted but when she drops it the suppressor is gone. The only revolver I know that would make use of a suppressor is the gas sealed Nagant M1895. Can you tell if it is the one in the episode? These captures are not the best but the gun is never in a focused shot. http://postimage.org/image/w2fs5z3ct/ --[[User:Ristipiste|Ristipiste]] 18:05, 18 April 2012 (EEST)
:It isn't a Nagant as this revolver has regular fluting on the cylinder. Also it looks like it has a 5 shot cylinder as opposed to the 7 in a Nagant. I would ''guess'' it is an I or J frame S&W, but there really isn't enough to go on. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:28, 18 April 2012 (CDT)

Definitely not a Nagant, I think its a Colt Det. Special or something (I think I can make out a Colt Cyl. release).

== Steyr SSG 69 ==

If memory serves Magnum uses the [[Steyr SSG 69|Steyr SSG 69 PII]] version noted by the dual triggers. In the scene where he is lining up for the shot you clearly see him pulling the first trigger before moving to the second for his shot. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 19:39, 18 April 2012 (CDT)

Talk:Holland & Holland Double Rifle

2012-04-18T01:27:38Z

Ranger01: /* Sticker shock */

== Sticker shock ==
There is one more thing about having a double rifle or shotgun made for one by Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, Purdey, and so on. The price that one is quoted at the beginning might change. So say you order a double shotgun for $40,000 (more affordable than a double rifle don't you think?), but over the next couple of years there are dramatic economic changes. Sound familiar? At the end of those two years the shotgun might now cost you $48,000. If you want that shotgun you pay the fee. It's a rich man's world.I got this information from ''Dangerous Game Rifles'' (2nd Edition) by Terry Weiland. If you're interested in the rarified world of DG rifles I suggest you buy a copy of his book. Amazon.com sells it and I've seen copies for sale at Barnes & Noble and Borders.It's a fascinating read even for those of us who will never go anywhere near an African safari. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:40, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

All the more reason one of those Italian and Russian jobs are so enticing... $3-6k for a .500 Nitro double? Count me in! hah-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:01, 17 April 2012 (CDT)
:Yes, excellent for the exotic game hunter on a budget. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 19:04, 17 April 2012 (CDT)

::Oh come on guys. You don't have $93,000 just laying around the house? --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 19:36, 17 April 2012 (CDT)

I do... oh wait, it *is* the house... hah-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:27, 17 April 2012 (CDT)

==What measurements does the company take?==

I'm sure it's nowhere near as customer-specific as, say, measurements for a suit or dress would be, but what kind of measurements does Holland and Holland take? Height? Weight? Something else? I'd think that the more attuned the rifle would be to a person's physical attributes at that moment in time, the harder it would be to sell to someone else, for the same reason you can't really sell a suit custom-tailored to your size to many people. Something like a person's weight can certainly change drastically within the span of a year, let alone two.

Do they also offer insurance in case the customer loses the physical capability to personally use the rifle while it's still being made? I'd hate to wait two years between placing an order for such a rifle and actually getting it, and say, losing a hand or an arm or even going blind before I ever get to use it. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 17:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

== Your custom dangerous game double rifle. For when you win the eighty million dollar powerball ==

'''Okay here goes. The following info is excerts is from Terry Wieland's book ''Dangerous Game Rifles'' (2nd Edition):'''

''If you are going to have a custom double barrel rifle the gunmaker will look at many things. Barrel length, stock dimensions, overall weight, scope or no scope, Cast on, cast off or straight stock. Cheekpieces and forend shape. Sling swivels or not? What about recoil tolerance. Will you want recoil reducers? This is a big one and you have to have an answer at the beginning. The overall weight of the gun is important. If you are going to have a double in 500 Nitro Express then the weight is big. Normally a 500 double wighs about 11 pounds. However the English gunmakers can make it heavier or lighter. How much can you handle? A big 700 double will typically weigh 19 pounds.''

''Balance is essential. So is fit. A rifle that fits properly has better balance and seems to have less recoil than one that does not. Length of pull is critical as is drop at comb and heel. The straighter the stock, the more the rifle will come straight back instead of rearing up in your face. The longer the stock, the farther your thumb will be from your nose. Also, the less likely it is that your middle finger will be bruised by the trigger guard.''

''The length of your arms will be measured to determine the length of the rifle so that it can come to your shoulder naturally and find the weld every time. The rifle must be a natural pointer. It points naturally where you look like a fine shotgun. Which is important becasue a dangerous game rifle will be used at short distances (typically under 200 yards) and might be needed quickly - such as when a Cape Buffalo is charging.''

''The size of the hand is something to consider. Most makers measure your hand to ensure the triggers are correctly spaced and that your middle finger is not pressed up against the trigger guard. Having that finger hammered is a guaranteed flinch inducer.''

''Will you have double triggers or one trigger. What type of load will you be shooting. The rifle will be regulated for that load only. If you shoot a load with a shorter bullet or a heavier bullet or a lighter powder charge accuracy will suffer. Know your load. ''

'''I could go on, but I think that gives you a pretty good idea. Wieland says nothing about the shooters body weight. As far as cost and other money issues here is another quote.'''

''The money involved, for the average individual, is immense. Most companies list starting prices at 55,000 British Pounds; at today's (2009) exchange rate, that is $88,000, give or take a few cents. Before starting work, most companies demand a third or even half up front, with more as the rifle progresses. The final price paid is the list price on the rifle at that time - not what it was at the time it was ordered, which might be as much as two or three years earlier. A potential buyer should insist on a written contract spelling out all the provisions regarding final price and how it will be affected by the exchange rate.''

'''So if your physical condition should change? Well I guess you would have to take that up with the gun maker. Hope this helped'''. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 18:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

:Despite the huge prices involved, from what I've heard these weapons have outstanding quality. I've heard some claim these weapons will last over a thousand years.

That's what I've read. Of course for that type of money I would expect the rifle to be of outstanding quality. The local Cabelas used to have a Holland & Holland D/B 12 gauge and that was a very impressive shotgun. The quality/workmanship was amazing. And even though it wasn't made for me the balance and fit was astounding.Oh well at least I can look at the pretty pictures. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 17:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

== More Doubles. Just not Holland & Holland Doubles ==

[[File:StephenGrantBPDouble500BPNitro.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Stephen Grant Sidelock Double Rifle - .500 Nitro Blackpowder]]
Stephen Grant was apprenticed to Kavanagh of Dublin before working with Charles Lancaster and Thomas Boss in London. Damascus pattern barrels with a blade front sight and two leaf rear sight on the solid rib. There is a sling eye mounted on the underside of the barrels. The top of the left barrel at the breech end is marked "STEPHEN GRANT" and "67A ST JAMES STREET LONDON" on the right. Crown over "V" and "GP" proofs on the barrel flats and two "crown/V" proofs on the water table. The frame, side locks, break lever, trigger guard and forearm hardware are nicely engraved with fine floral scroll designs and each lock plate is marked "STEPHEN GRANT". The barrels are finished brown, casehardened frame and locks, with blue remaining parts. Double triggers, tang mounted automatic safety with gold "SAFE", extractor and mounted with a checkered splinter forearm and pistol grip stock with casehardened, engraved grip cap, cheekpiece, sling eye, checkered iron buttplate and silver initial oval. Information provided by the consignor states that this rifle was completed July 29, 1887 and described as a breech loading centerfire 500 caliber double rifle with 28 inch barrels built to order for Henry May Esq. The rifle comes in a leather bound hard takedown case with brass corner protectors, double straps and green felt lining. In the case are two nickel snap caps and a 5 count box of Kynoch .500 caliber, Nitro for "Black Powder" Express rifle cartridges, with a 3 inch case.

[[File:WestleyRichardsboxlock.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Westley-Richards Boxlock Double Rifle - .470 Nitro]]
[[File:WestleyRichardsSidelock.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Westley-Richards Sidelock Double Rifle - .500 Nitro]]
[[File:PedersoliDoubleBPHammer.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Pedersoli Reproduction of a Blackpower Express Double - .50]]

Talk:Holland & Holland Double Rifle

2012-04-18T00:01:07Z

Ranger01: /* Sticker shock */

== Sticker shock ==
There is one more thing about having a double rifle or shotgun made for one by Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, Purdey, and so on. The price that one is quoted at the beginning might change. So say you order a double shotgun for $40,000 (more affordable than a double rifle don't you think?), but over the next couple of years there are dramatic economic changes. Sound familiar? At the end of those two years the shotgun might now cost you $48,000. If you want that shotgun you pay the fee. It's a rich man's world.I got this information from ''Dangerous Game Rifles'' (2nd Edition) by Terry Weiland. If you're interested in the rarified world of DG rifles I suggest you buy a copy of his book. Amazon.com sells it and I've seen copies for sale at Barnes & Noble and Borders.It's a fascinating read even for those of us who will never go anywhere near an African safari. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:40, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

All the more reason one of those Italian and Russian jobs are so enticing... $3-6k for a .500 Nitro double? Count me in! hah-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:01, 17 April 2012 (CDT)

==What measurements does the company take?==

I'm sure it's nowhere near as customer-specific as, say, measurements for a suit or dress would be, but what kind of measurements does Holland and Holland take? Height? Weight? Something else? I'd think that the more attuned the rifle would be to a person's physical attributes at that moment in time, the harder it would be to sell to someone else, for the same reason you can't really sell a suit custom-tailored to your size to many people. Something like a person's weight can certainly change drastically within the span of a year, let alone two.

Do they also offer insurance in case the customer loses the physical capability to personally use the rifle while it's still being made? I'd hate to wait two years between placing an order for such a rifle and actually getting it, and say, losing a hand or an arm or even going blind before I ever get to use it. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 17:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

== Your custom dangerous game double rifle. For when you win the eighty million dollar powerball ==

'''Okay here goes. The following info is excerts is from Terry Wieland's book ''Dangerous Game Rifles'' (2nd Edition):'''

''If you are going to have a custom double barrel rifle the gunmaker will look at many things. Barrel length, stock dimensions, overall weight, scope or no scope, Cast on, cast off or straight stock. Cheekpieces and forend shape. Sling swivels or not? What about recoil tolerance. Will you want recoil reducers? This is a big one and you have to have an answer at the beginning. The overall weight of the gun is important. If you are going to have a double in 500 Nitro Express then the weight is big. Normally a 500 double wighs about 11 pounds. However the English gunmakers can make it heavier or lighter. How much can you handle? A big 700 double will typically weigh 19 pounds.''

''Balance is essential. So is fit. A rifle that fits properly has better balance and seems to have less recoil than one that does not. Length of pull is critical as is drop at comb and heel. The straighter the stock, the more the rifle will come straight back instead of rearing up in your face. The longer the stock, the farther your thumb will be from your nose. Also, the less likely it is that your middle finger will be bruised by the trigger guard.''

''The length of your arms will be measured to determine the length of the rifle so that it can come to your shoulder naturally and find the weld every time. The rifle must be a natural pointer. It points naturally where you look like a fine shotgun. Which is important becasue a dangerous game rifle will be used at short distances (typically under 200 yards) and might be needed quickly - such as when a Cape Buffalo is charging.''

''The size of the hand is something to consider. Most makers measure your hand to ensure the triggers are correctly spaced and that your middle finger is not pressed up against the trigger guard. Having that finger hammered is a guaranteed flinch inducer.''

''Will you have double triggers or one trigger. What type of load will you be shooting. The rifle will be regulated for that load only. If you shoot a load with a shorter bullet or a heavier bullet or a lighter powder charge accuracy will suffer. Know your load. ''

'''I could go on, but I think that gives you a pretty good idea. Wieland says nothing about the shooters body weight. As far as cost and other money issues here is another quote.'''

''The money involved, for the average individual, is immense. Most companies list starting prices at 55,000 British Pounds; at today's (2009) exchange rate, that is $88,000, give or take a few cents. Before starting work, most companies demand a third or even half up front, with more as the rifle progresses. The final price paid is the list price on the rifle at that time - not what it was at the time it was ordered, which might be as much as two or three years earlier. A potential buyer should insist on a written contract spelling out all the provisions regarding final price and how it will be affected by the exchange rate.''

'''So if your physical condition should change? Well I guess you would have to take that up with the gun maker. Hope this helped'''. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 18:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

:Despite the huge prices involved, from what I've heard these weapons have outstanding quality. I've heard some claim these weapons will last over a thousand years.

That's what I've read. Of course for that type of money I would expect the rifle to be of outstanding quality. The local Cabelas used to have a Holland & Holland D/B 12 gauge and that was a very impressive shotgun. The quality/workmanship was amazing. And even though it wasn't made for me the balance and fit was astounding.Oh well at least I can look at the pretty pictures. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 17:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

== More Doubles. Just not Holland & Holland Doubles ==

[[File:StephenGrantBPDouble500BPNitro.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Stephen Grant Sidelock Double Rifle - .500 Nitro Blackpowder]]
Stephen Grant was apprenticed to Kavanagh of Dublin before working with Charles Lancaster and Thomas Boss in London. Damascus pattern barrels with a blade front sight and two leaf rear sight on the solid rib. There is a sling eye mounted on the underside of the barrels. The top of the left barrel at the breech end is marked "STEPHEN GRANT" and "67A ST JAMES STREET LONDON" on the right. Crown over "V" and "GP" proofs on the barrel flats and two "crown/V" proofs on the water table. The frame, side locks, break lever, trigger guard and forearm hardware are nicely engraved with fine floral scroll designs and each lock plate is marked "STEPHEN GRANT". The barrels are finished brown, casehardened frame and locks, with blue remaining parts. Double triggers, tang mounted automatic safety with gold "SAFE", extractor and mounted with a checkered splinter forearm and pistol grip stock with casehardened, engraved grip cap, cheekpiece, sling eye, checkered iron buttplate and silver initial oval. Information provided by the consignor states that this rifle was completed July 29, 1887 and described as a breech loading centerfire 500 caliber double rifle with 28 inch barrels built to order for Henry May Esq. The rifle comes in a leather bound hard takedown case with brass corner protectors, double straps and green felt lining. In the case are two nickel snap caps and a 5 count box of Kynoch .500 caliber, Nitro for "Black Powder" Express rifle cartridges, with a 3 inch case.

[[File:WestleyRichardsboxlock.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Westley-Richards Boxlock Double Rifle - .470 Nitro]]
[[File:WestleyRichardsSidelock.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Westley-Richards Sidelock Double Rifle - .500 Nitro]]
[[File:PedersoliDoubleBPHammer.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Pedersoli Reproduction of a Blackpower Express Double - .50]]

Talk:The Wild Geese

2012-04-17T23:52:02Z

Ranger01: /* Custom L1A1 Carbine Photoshop */

==McTaggartts silenced pistol==
Is the pistol fitted with a suppressor used by Sgt.Jock McTaggart a Colt M1911A1?It's certainly not a suppressed P38 as used by Lt.Shaun Fynn in the same sequence.
:: the problem is that we never get a good look at the pistol. I was screen capping this movie and the lack of a clear shot of Jock's gun was vexing. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 22:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

== Roger Moore's Handgun ==

The handgun used by Roger Moore in the London scenes [when he kills Randy and when the mafia hitmen come after him at the club] is not a ''Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1'' as indicated. It is a SIG P-210. This is especially evident when he points it in Richard Burton's face when Burton is at the door of the loft above the club.

== Brook Williams ==

In the second picture [taken from the film] under the '''L1A1 SLR''' entry...the actor standing next to Glyn Baker is Brook Williams...his character's name in the film is Samuels. He was a good friend of Richard Burton [and personal assistant] and appears in bit parts in a number of Richard Burton films. He is the same mercenary that RSM Young calls a "f***ing abortion" because he can't get up and then RSM Young shoots at him [while he is laying on the ground] during the training scenes. BTW RSM Young uses a ''Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1'' in those scenes...yet this is not mentioned.

== The Mafia Hit ==

Only one weapon is mentioned [the Ingram Model 10] in the listings that was used during the mafia hit on Roger Moore's character in London. There are a number of small arms in these scenes as follows:

'''Richard Burton''': snub-nose [2-inch] Colt Detective Special [or similar Colt handgun - it is definately a Colt but I am not positive on what model it is]

'''Roger Moore''': SIG P-210

'''Richard Harris''': MkII Grenade and a Smith & Wesson short barreled revolver [looks to be a 3-inch] - it appears to be a Model 27 - but again [like Burton's Colt] I know it is a Smith & Wesson but it could be one of a number of models with a shrouded ejector rod.

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.1''' [in trenchcoat]: as previously stated - an Ingram Model 10

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.2''' [in leather coat]: Walther P.38

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.3''' [blonde with long hair and mustache; blue suit]: Beretta M1951 "Brigadier"

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.4''' [dark hair; black suit]: Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.5''' [blonde hair; dark suit]: Colt Python with 6-inch barrel

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.6''' [the one that yells that the contract has been withdrawn]: Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1

::Thanks Dear Mystery user (since NONE of you guys after a certain point have a USER ID). Yes, I knew about these pistols during the hit on Shawn but it was hard to screencap them since they are seen so fleetingly. Anyway, thanks for the edit, I will specifically try to screencap these guys, but these pistols were very hard to see in a still frame. MPM2008

== Richard Burton's Suppressed Handgun ==

The suppressed handgun used by Richard Burton at the end of the film is a Beretta M1934.

::Excellent! Thanks mystery user! :) MPM2008

== Percy Herbert ==

In the first image [from the film] under the '''L1A1 SLR''' entry...the mercenary in the middle is actor Percy Herbert. His character's name in the film is '''Keith'''. He [like Brook Williams] appears in numerous scenes. He is the mercenary Kenneth Griffith calls "chubby cheeks" when they are writing out wills. He is also the same mercenary seen in the second image [from the film] under the '''FN LAR''' entry...the one who ends up being shot in the head. Also Richard Burton does not carry a "FN LAR" as erroneously stated in the same entry. The FN he is holding in the image is the one Percy Herbert is carrying. If one watches the scene, when the fence is being cut, Percy Herbert hands his FN to Burton so he, Herbert, can hold the fence while it is cut.

A little trivia...Percy Herbert was a Second World War veteran and was captured by the Japanese. He appears in The Bridge Over The River Kwai as an actor and consultant. Allegedly he is the one that suggested to the director of the film that the soldiers should whistle "Colonel Bogey" while they marched.

== Ian Yule's Weapon ==

The "R1 Battle Carbine" that is listed as being used by Ian Yule is a chopped L1A1. The sight is a SinglePoint "red-dot" sight [seen in films like ''Star Wars'' and used by U.S. troops during the infamous Son Tay raid during the Vietnam War]. Another thing about the weapon is it is seen throughout the film with the 30-round cartridge magazine from the L4-series Bren [the 7,62mm conversion of the Bren gun]. The 7,62mm 30-round cartridge magazine from the L4-series will fit in a L1A1 but since the L4-series is top-fed the cartridge magazine does not usually work well with the bottom fed L1A1 [it's spring is weaker since the L4-series relies on gravity to feed the rounds from the cartridge magazine into the weapon]. FYI - there was never a proprietary L1A1 30-round cartridge magazine, only 20-round cartridge magazines, this is why the L4-series cartridge magazine was sometimes utilized by troops.

*Sorry to correct you but, The Australian SAS used L1A1's in Vietnam with 30 round "straight" cartridge magazines. Also as Donaldson was supposed to be an experienced soldier, could he not replace the spring? as he certainly would know how to remove it.

*You are correct about the Australian magazines...but the one in the film is curved...hence a L4-series magazine. So to correct my original statement...there were no British proprietary 30-round magazines for their L1A1 SLR. Furthermore to assume that the spring was replaced by the film character would be something I would think is beyond the scope of this website. I'm sure that for Hollywood usage the magazine was probably not loaded to full capacity if they had experienced any jamming on the film set. Of course without being able to converse with the film's armourer - we will probably never know exactly how the magazine was used, modified, etc. A side note - according to some biographies of Ian Yule he also served as an uncredited assistant weapons handler on the film set.

*Theres an episode of The Professionals (Heroes) where theres an FAL with a L4 type magazine,could the show's armourers be the same as the film's?
::There's a picture of the FAL with the L4 magazine in the professionals page.[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 19:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

*As for the magazine, it might simply be a 30 round magazine for the L2A1 Canadian SAW version of the FAL. Since Canadian FALs were of inch pattern, the 30 round L2A1 mag would fit on a British L1A1 receiver.

Just a little bit of trivia: It appears an "R1 carbine", if not in fact the exact same weapon, appeared in the movie "Firepower" with James Coburn. The trailer is on Youtube and the R1 can be seen near the end being fired by James Coburn from the back of a jeep, and again being fired from a helicopter. Here's the trailer: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTKyRjP8PqM&feature=related]--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 22:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The mystery is solved! This is a letter from Ian Yule himself: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/12/03/mystery-of-the-short-barreled-fal-is-solved/. The weapon is a prototype short barreled FAL, developed in Britain. It has a single point dot reflex sight, four 40 round magazines, a special sling, a flash eliminator, and a bayonet.

*Wow! Thanks a million![[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] 02:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

:::For the record here is the information I removed from the page. There is still interesting information regarding R1s that some folks may find useful somewhere on IMFDB.
:::''"It was said that Tosh was supposed to have an R1 style variant as he is ex-SAS which made him special. I heard this weapon was an experimental weapon for South African Paratroops but never got adopted. R-1 Battle Rifle. Full sized FN-FAL metric variant. Originally wooden stocked later issued with synthetic stock and often camouflaged by the end user with a hand applied series of paints. For more information check out: http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/SIG/fal/fal.htm"''

== Wild Geese II sniper rifle ==

In the sequel Edward Fox's character (Alex Faulkner) uses a sniper rifle described in the end credits as a 'Survivor rifle'. It was provided by a Don McNabb, does anyone have any information on this weapon?

: Though it is off topic I believe the weapon was a highly modified Safari Arms .45 which, a la "The Man From UNCLE", had an extended barrel, was equipped with a special stock, mount for a telescopic sight and a custom suppressor of some sort. I read something about it in Soldier of Fortune the year the movie came out. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 20:19, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

==Now THIS is what I call an action movie==
:This movie is one of the only true action movies I have seen in a long while. More than 4 people actually die in this movie, unlike most modern action films, and the plot is pretty solid. This movie deserves a remake and a videogame-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 02:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

::I agree, you don't see many movies were lots of main character walk in and only a hand full walk out. or have endings like the magnificent seven or this film where where losses did nothing in the end

== Sa. 24 ==
Sa. 24 (originaly "Samopal vzor 24") is verison of Sa.23 fixed stock, in 7,62x25, version with folding stock is Sa.25 (9x19) or Sa.26 (7,62x25). SMG in movie is Sa.25.

== Vickers Gun ==
Could someone please provide a photo and info on the Vickers Heavy Machine Gun used near the end of the film? An interesting theme of the film is not only are the leads played by 1950's British stars but they use older equipment as the film progresses, i.e. a Vickers Gun, and the airstrip escape from a Dakota as opposed to a C-130.[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] 22:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::1950s stars? well most of them started and did a lot of work in the 1950s but they were established international movie stars by the time this film was made so I wouldn't describe them merely as 1950s stars. Also there wasn't a theme of older guns, it was the mercs scrounging for anything they could use and there were a lot of left over guns in Africa from the previous decades. Like the Blindicide, I don't recall any of them carrying one into the para drop, but they could have picked up one from the prison camp when they killed all the guards. Most of them still used what they brought with them into the country (Uzis, Fals, Sterlings, etc.) so I wouldn't consider it to be a thematic 'change' for them to use older weapons as the film progresses. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks everyone! Don't forget the original choice for RSM Sandy Young was [[Stephen Boyd]] (who according to Euan Lloyd would have done his character's voice in his native Belfast accent).[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] 22:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

==Remake==
Supposed to come out this year http://www.movieweb.com/movie/the-wild-geese - [[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 21:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

==This page needs some work==
Weapon titles that hyperlinked and it only shows one category which is movie. Anyway just thought I would point that out. I'd do the corrections, but I'm not a moderator. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay now that I have admin privliges I'll start the work. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 21:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay that's a little neater. Was this one of the first pages to be done? --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::Jeez, none of us are as perfect as YOU checkman! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:31, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah well it is true some of us are more blessed than others. But being perfect is a terrible burden. Consider your self lucky that you are so ordinary.Revel in your mediocrity. LOL. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 12:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Please tell me that you know I'm kidding.I'm not POI after all. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 12:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

== Richard Burton's Uzi ==
[[Image:Richard burton uzi.jpg|thumb|none|500px|IMI Uzi used by [[Richard Burton]] in the film ''The Wild Geese''. One of four identical Uzis used on set. Photo courtesy of the Long Mountain Outfitters]]

== Ian's rifle ==
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/12/03/mystery-of-the-short-barreled-fal-is-solved/ Forgot how to sign /noe
==weapons in book==
I finally got around to reading the book the movie was based off of. The mercs and Simbas all use AK-47's, RPD's, unnamed handguns, a bazooka, and the Crossbow featured in the movie. The FAL, which is used exstensively in the film, only appears once in the book (as far as I kno)-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 07:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

== Shawn's 1911 ==

I'm watching the movie again and from what I can see I'm not totally sure that Shawn uses a Colt 1911 as stated in the article. I'm thinking of the gun used in the scene where Alan meets with Shawn at the casino. That gun in my mind doesn't look like the colt 1911. I thought it perhaps is a copy made by "Star" or similiar but havent found one that matches it exactly.
If I'm wrong and this is a Colt 1911 featured in the movie, is it a special version or something?
[[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 14:10, 13 June 2011 (CDT)

I got a pic of the [http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/vlcsnap2011061409h36m57.png/ gun] [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 02:43, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:I guess you didn't see the topic on this page entitled "The Mafia Hit." Sean's pistol is a SIG P-210.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 07:38, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

::No I didnt see that. How come the identity of the gun isnt shown in the main article? [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 09:47, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

::Nevermind, I've updated the article to reflect this plus uploaded images.

== The Revolvers ==

I've tried to take some good photos of the revolvers Faulkner, Rafer and the hitman are using in the movie. The photos are up now. I'm unsure of their identification though. The hitman appears to carry a Colt Python but from what I can see it could actually be a [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Colt-diamondback.jpg Colt Diamondback with 6 inch barrel]
In any case, if you more experienced guys would take a look at the screens and try your best to ID them I would be greatful. :) [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 06:08, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

== FAL's vs UZI's ==

First of all I want to say that I love this movie and have been watching it since i was young. They really do not make them like this anymore.

The thing that has always struck me as odd is that the UZI's chambered in 9mm were SO much louder than all the FAL's in the film which almost sound suppressed. I know Mad Mike Hoare was in on the making of this movie and I wonder why this mistake was made. This is most easily noticed in the scene where Peter and Jessie take turns firing on approaching Simbas as they flee the river bank after Whitty's death.--[[User:Mrmojo32|Mrmojo32]] 19:52, 25 January 2012 (CST)

::ID your posts or no one will answer them (for the most part). [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:33, 25 January 2012 (CST)

I think I have it right now. Sorry this is my first posting. --[[User:Mrmojo32|Mrmojo32]] 19:53, 25 January 2012 (CST)

::Welcome to the team :). Its one of my favorite movies as well and I do agree that they dont make them like this anymore. As for your comment. The uzi-sounds of the movie is not original: meaning they werent made for the movie but taken from at least one other movie. That particular weapon sound was used for the Sterling guns used in the James Bond movie "[[Spy Who Loved Me, The|The Spy who loved me]]". In order words the uzi sounds are recycled and not "reliable" unless someone knows specifically that those sounds were recorded from a genuine Uzi from the beginning. As for the FN FAL I agree..Sounds very "subdued" for lack of better words. Perhaps those sounds were recycled too from possibly an unreleated weapon. [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 11:42, 26 January 2012 (CST)

:::They are "stock" sound effects, meaning they are generic gunshots that are from a sound effects library. So when the sound man needs to dub in the sound of an uzi, as in this case, he pulls out a tape(I'm just guessing, but at the time this movies was made it was probably on a reel to reel) and cues it up to the cut that's probably named something like "submachine gun firing". I have always called the the gunshot sounds such as the ones used in ''Wild Geese'' "British Sound Effects", because they can be heard used over and over in British movies from about the Mid 60's through the 80's. The particular gunshot effect used for the uzi sounds somewhat like the real life sound of a Sten gun. Whether or not a sound effects man recorded a Sten gun firing and "enhanced" it to create the "British" submachine gun sound effect, I do not know.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 13:08, 26 January 2012 (CST)

:::: A lot of those came from the stock BBC film library of sound effects. They all sound the same. I've seen films where an XM-177E2 sounded just like a Sten gun. the BBC recorded all manner of World war 2 sound effects, so all of their movie gun noises for the longest time were either British or German WW2 weapons. I remember the gunfire in [[A Bridge Too Far]] sounding weird. The MP40s sounded like MG42s. etc. etc. Come on guys. You all KNOW movie gun noises are never recorded LIVE. They would blow out the microphones if the microphones were set to record any other sound. Ever seen behind the scenes shots of guys shooting guns in a film? The gunfire tops out the auto-LIMITERS on the mikes, and makes them sound muffled (this is done to protect the microphone equipment from damage). All those great gun sound effects are all done in controlled environments with special recording equipment and then edited into the movie later. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:06, 26 January 2012 (CST)
:::::You're right about [[A Bridge Too Far]]. I remember there is one scene where the generic submachine gun sound effect that we have just been discussing is used for an MG-34! While we are on the subject of these stock sound effects, there is gunshot that is used for pistols that can be heard all the time in British productions. It can be heard in this clip from Octopussy on Youtube; just jump to the part where Bond kills Orlov's guards and listen to the sound of his pistol: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLu4dTF-sSM&feature=related] A classic "British" sound effect from the BBC library.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 21:58, 26 January 2012 (CST)

::::::If we are continuing on the topic of stock-footage/sounds, check out this clip from the movie "The Longest Day". I think they've used more individual weapon sounds to make that movie than there are war-movies! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzd1gCc5CO8 YouTube clip]. [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 10:49, 27 January 2012 (CST)

== Arms embargo comment ==

Under the section for the shortened L1A1 there is the following comment: "''For many years, fans of the film assumed the weapon was a South African R1 Variant, but information directly from the actor reminds us that there was an arms embargo against South Africa during the 1970s (because of apartheid). This was a custom made L1A1 carbine that came from a UK Movie armory''". I don't understand this comment, as this was famously filmed in South Africa, meaning that an arms embargo would mean it was more likely that they would be using South African weapons rather than less right? I'm not disputing that this is a custom L1A1 (it has the L1A1 type carry handle and sights along with not having an actual flash hider just cuts in shortened the barrel), I just don't understand this comment. If there was no problem with them using South African weapons contrary to this comment, that would also explain [[Hardy Krueger]]'s rifle, which appears to be an R1 (wooden stock with metal ferrule, plastic handguard and straight ribbed carry handle). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:10, 27 January 2012 (CST)

== Custom L1A1 Carbine Photoshop ==

After seeing the second appearance of the custom L1A1 carbine in ''[[Firepower]]'', I made a quick photoshop of the gun for illustrative purposes. The scope isn't the right model and there aren't any cuts in the barrel, but would anyone mind if I put this up on the main page? --[[User:Markit|Markit]] 11:33, 16 April 2012 (CDT)

[[File:L1A1Carbine.jpg|thumb|none|500px|L1A1 rifle edited to resemble the custom made L1A1 carbine, as seen in the films ''[[The Wild Geese]]'' and ''[[Firepower]]''.]]

:I made an attempt at this a while ago but forgot about it till seeing yours. This one has the correct sight (I think it called an Armson OEG or something like that but not sure) and the cuts on the barrel (not necessarily correct, but representative). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:28, 16 April 2012 (CDT)
:[[File:L1A1 Wild Geese custom.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

The sight is an Armson Occluded Eye Gunsight, pretty much a 60s version of a red dot. Your right eye is blocked by the sight and only sees the tube (and its bright red dot) and your left eye sees what you're looking at. Together your eyes form an image with the red dot on top of it. I'd recommend looking at their website if only to see the hilarious photoshop jobs that are their flyers.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:13, 16 April 2012 (CDT)
:The sight is a Single Point OEG Sight that is mounted on the custom L1A1 not an Armson OEG. It is the same type of sight use in the Son Tay Raid in 1970. The Armson sight did not come out until the 80's as an improved OEG based on the Single Point.--[[User:Phoenixent|phoenixent]] 10:04, 17 April 2012 (CDT)

Hm, I thought Armson was the original (then again I haven't really researched much into the OEGs) guess one learns new things every day.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 18:52, 17 April 2012 (CDT)

Talk:The Wild Geese

2012-04-17T00:14:05Z

Ranger01: /* Custom L1A1 Carbine Photoshop */

Talk:The Wild Geese

2012-04-17T00:13:43Z

Ranger01: /* Custom L1A1 Carbine Photoshop */

==McTaggartts silenced pistol==
Is the pistol fitted with a suppressor used by Sgt.Jock McTaggart a Colt M1911A1?It's certainly not a suppressed P38 as used by Lt.Shaun Fynn in the same sequence.
:: the problem is that we never get a good look at the pistol. I was screen capping this movie and the lack of a clear shot of Jock's gun was vexing. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 22:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

== Roger Moore's Handgun ==

The handgun used by Roger Moore in the London scenes [when he kills Randy and when the mafia hitmen come after him at the club] is not a ''Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1'' as indicated. It is a SIG P-210. This is especially evident when he points it in Richard Burton's face when Burton is at the door of the loft above the club.

== Brook Williams ==

In the second picture [taken from the film] under the '''L1A1 SLR''' entry...the actor standing next to Glyn Baker is Brook Williams...his character's name in the film is Samuels. He was a good friend of Richard Burton [and personal assistant] and appears in bit parts in a number of Richard Burton films. He is the same mercenary that RSM Young calls a "f***ing abortion" because he can't get up and then RSM Young shoots at him [while he is laying on the ground] during the training scenes. BTW RSM Young uses a ''Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1'' in those scenes...yet this is not mentioned.

== The Mafia Hit ==

Only one weapon is mentioned [the Ingram Model 10] in the listings that was used during the mafia hit on Roger Moore's character in London. There are a number of small arms in these scenes as follows:

'''Richard Burton''': snub-nose [2-inch] Colt Detective Special [or similar Colt handgun - it is definately a Colt but I am not positive on what model it is]

'''Roger Moore''': SIG P-210

'''Richard Harris''': MkII Grenade and a Smith & Wesson short barreled revolver [looks to be a 3-inch] - it appears to be a Model 27 - but again [like Burton's Colt] I know it is a Smith & Wesson but it could be one of a number of models with a shrouded ejector rod.

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.1''' [in trenchcoat]: as previously stated - an Ingram Model 10

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.2''' [in leather coat]: Walther P.38

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.3''' [blonde with long hair and mustache; blue suit]: Beretta M1951 "Brigadier"

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.4''' [dark hair; black suit]: Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.5''' [blonde hair; dark suit]: Colt Python with 6-inch barrel

'''Mafia Hitman Nr.6''' [the one that yells that the contract has been withdrawn]: Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic; M1911A1

::Thanks Dear Mystery user (since NONE of you guys after a certain point have a USER ID). Yes, I knew about these pistols during the hit on Shawn but it was hard to screencap them since they are seen so fleetingly. Anyway, thanks for the edit, I will specifically try to screencap these guys, but these pistols were very hard to see in a still frame. MPM2008

== Richard Burton's Suppressed Handgun ==

The suppressed handgun used by Richard Burton at the end of the film is a Beretta M1934.

::Excellent! Thanks mystery user! :) MPM2008

== Percy Herbert ==

In the first image [from the film] under the '''L1A1 SLR''' entry...the mercenary in the middle is actor Percy Herbert. His character's name in the film is '''Keith'''. He [like Brook Williams] appears in numerous scenes. He is the mercenary Kenneth Griffith calls "chubby cheeks" when they are writing out wills. He is also the same mercenary seen in the second image [from the film] under the '''FN LAR''' entry...the one who ends up being shot in the head. Also Richard Burton does not carry a "FN LAR" as erroneously stated in the same entry. The FN he is holding in the image is the one Percy Herbert is carrying. If one watches the scene, when the fence is being cut, Percy Herbert hands his FN to Burton so he, Herbert, can hold the fence while it is cut.

A little trivia...Percy Herbert was a Second World War veteran and was captured by the Japanese. He appears in The Bridge Over The River Kwai as an actor and consultant. Allegedly he is the one that suggested to the director of the film that the soldiers should whistle "Colonel Bogey" while they marched.

== Ian Yule's Weapon ==

The "R1 Battle Carbine" that is listed as being used by Ian Yule is a chopped L1A1. The sight is a SinglePoint "red-dot" sight [seen in films like ''Star Wars'' and used by U.S. troops during the infamous Son Tay raid during the Vietnam War]. Another thing about the weapon is it is seen throughout the film with the 30-round cartridge magazine from the L4-series Bren [the 7,62mm conversion of the Bren gun]. The 7,62mm 30-round cartridge magazine from the L4-series will fit in a L1A1 but since the L4-series is top-fed the cartridge magazine does not usually work well with the bottom fed L1A1 [it's spring is weaker since the L4-series relies on gravity to feed the rounds from the cartridge magazine into the weapon]. FYI - there was never a proprietary L1A1 30-round cartridge magazine, only 20-round cartridge magazines, this is why the L4-series cartridge magazine was sometimes utilized by troops.

*Sorry to correct you but, The Australian SAS used L1A1's in Vietnam with 30 round "straight" cartridge magazines. Also as Donaldson was supposed to be an experienced soldier, could he not replace the spring? as he certainly would know how to remove it.

*You are correct about the Australian magazines...but the one in the film is curved...hence a L4-series magazine. So to correct my original statement...there were no British proprietary 30-round magazines for their L1A1 SLR. Furthermore to assume that the spring was replaced by the film character would be something I would think is beyond the scope of this website. I'm sure that for Hollywood usage the magazine was probably not loaded to full capacity if they had experienced any jamming on the film set. Of course without being able to converse with the film's armourer - we will probably never know exactly how the magazine was used, modified, etc. A side note - according to some biographies of Ian Yule he also served as an uncredited assistant weapons handler on the film set.

*Theres an episode of The Professionals (Heroes) where theres an FAL with a L4 type magazine,could the show's armourers be the same as the film's?
::There's a picture of the FAL with the L4 magazine in the professionals page.[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 19:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

*As for the magazine, it might simply be a 30 round magazine for the L2A1 Canadian SAW version of the FAL. Since Canadian FALs were of inch pattern, the 30 round L2A1 mag would fit on a British L1A1 receiver.

Just a little bit of trivia: It appears an "R1 carbine", if not in fact the exact same weapon, appeared in the movie "Firepower" with James Coburn. The trailer is on Youtube and the R1 can be seen near the end being fired by James Coburn from the back of a jeep, and again being fired from a helicopter. Here's the trailer: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTKyRjP8PqM&feature=related]--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 22:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The mystery is solved! This is a letter from Ian Yule himself: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/12/03/mystery-of-the-short-barreled-fal-is-solved/. The weapon is a prototype short barreled FAL, developed in Britain. It has a single point dot reflex sight, four 40 round magazines, a special sling, a flash eliminator, and a bayonet.

*Wow! Thanks a million![[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] 02:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

:::For the record here is the information I removed from the page. There is still interesting information regarding R1s that some folks may find useful somewhere on IMFDB.
:::''"It was said that Tosh was supposed to have an R1 style variant as he is ex-SAS which made him special. I heard this weapon was an experimental weapon for South African Paratroops but never got adopted. R-1 Battle Rifle. Full sized FN-FAL metric variant. Originally wooden stocked later issued with synthetic stock and often camouflaged by the end user with a hand applied series of paints. For more information check out: http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/SIG/fal/fal.htm"''

== Wild Geese II sniper rifle ==

In the sequel Edward Fox's character (Alex Faulkner) uses a sniper rifle described in the end credits as a 'Survivor rifle'. It was provided by a Don McNabb, does anyone have any information on this weapon?

: Though it is off topic I believe the weapon was a highly modified Safari Arms .45 which, a la "The Man From UNCLE", had an extended barrel, was equipped with a special stock, mount for a telescopic sight and a custom suppressor of some sort. I read something about it in Soldier of Fortune the year the movie came out. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 20:19, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

==Now THIS is what I call an action movie==
:This movie is one of the only true action movies I have seen in a long while. More than 4 people actually die in this movie, unlike most modern action films, and the plot is pretty solid. This movie deserves a remake and a videogame-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 02:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

::I agree, you don't see many movies were lots of main character walk in and only a hand full walk out. or have endings like the magnificent seven or this film where where losses did nothing in the end

== Sa. 24 ==
Sa. 24 (originaly "Samopal vzor 24") is verison of Sa.23 fixed stock, in 7,62x25, version with folding stock is Sa.25 (9x19) or Sa.26 (7,62x25). SMG in movie is Sa.25.

== Vickers Gun ==
Could someone please provide a photo and info on the Vickers Heavy Machine Gun used near the end of the film? An interesting theme of the film is not only are the leads played by 1950's British stars but they use older equipment as the film progresses, i.e. a Vickers Gun, and the airstrip escape from a Dakota as opposed to a C-130.[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] 22:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::1950s stars? well most of them started and did a lot of work in the 1950s but they were established international movie stars by the time this film was made so I wouldn't describe them merely as 1950s stars. Also there wasn't a theme of older guns, it was the mercs scrounging for anything they could use and there were a lot of left over guns in Africa from the previous decades. Like the Blindicide, I don't recall any of them carrying one into the para drop, but they could have picked up one from the prison camp when they killed all the guards. Most of them still used what they brought with them into the country (Uzis, Fals, Sterlings, etc.) so I wouldn't consider it to be a thematic 'change' for them to use older weapons as the film progresses. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks everyone! Don't forget the original choice for RSM Sandy Young was [[Stephen Boyd]] (who according to Euan Lloyd would have done his character's voice in his native Belfast accent).[[User:Foofbun|Foofbun]] 22:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

==Remake==
Supposed to come out this year http://www.movieweb.com/movie/the-wild-geese - [[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 21:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

==This page needs some work==
Weapon titles that hyperlinked and it only shows one category which is movie. Anyway just thought I would point that out. I'd do the corrections, but I'm not a moderator. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 00:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay now that I have admin privliges I'll start the work. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 21:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay that's a little neater. Was this one of the first pages to be done? --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 01:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::Jeez, none of us are as perfect as YOU checkman! [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 02:31, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah well it is true some of us are more blessed than others. But being perfect is a terrible burden. Consider your self lucky that you are so ordinary.Revel in your mediocrity. LOL. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 12:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Please tell me that you know I'm kidding.I'm not POI after all. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 12:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

== Richard Burton's Uzi ==
[[Image:Richard burton uzi.jpg|thumb|none|500px|IMI Uzi used by [[Richard Burton]] in the film ''The Wild Geese''. One of four identical Uzis used on set. Photo courtesy of the Long Mountain Outfitters]]

== Ian's rifle ==
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/12/03/mystery-of-the-short-barreled-fal-is-solved/ Forgot how to sign /noe
==weapons in book==
I finally got around to reading the book the movie was based off of. The mercs and Simbas all use AK-47's, RPD's, unnamed handguns, a bazooka, and the Crossbow featured in the movie. The FAL, which is used exstensively in the film, only appears once in the book (as far as I kno)-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 07:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

== Shawn's 1911 ==

I'm watching the movie again and from what I can see I'm not totally sure that Shawn uses a Colt 1911 as stated in the article. I'm thinking of the gun used in the scene where Alan meets with Shawn at the casino. That gun in my mind doesn't look like the colt 1911. I thought it perhaps is a copy made by "Star" or similiar but havent found one that matches it exactly.
If I'm wrong and this is a Colt 1911 featured in the movie, is it a special version or something?
[[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 14:10, 13 June 2011 (CDT)

I got a pic of the [http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/vlcsnap2011061409h36m57.png/ gun] [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 02:43, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:I guess you didn't see the topic on this page entitled "The Mafia Hit." Sean's pistol is a SIG P-210.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 07:38, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

::No I didnt see that. How come the identity of the gun isnt shown in the main article? [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 09:47, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

::Nevermind, I've updated the article to reflect this plus uploaded images.

== The Revolvers ==

I've tried to take some good photos of the revolvers Faulkner, Rafer and the hitman are using in the movie. The photos are up now. I'm unsure of their identification though. The hitman appears to carry a Colt Python but from what I can see it could actually be a [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Colt-diamondback.jpg Colt Diamondback with 6 inch barrel]
In any case, if you more experienced guys would take a look at the screens and try your best to ID them I would be greatful. :) [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 06:08, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

== FAL's vs UZI's ==

First of all I want to say that I love this movie and have been watching it since i was young. They really do not make them like this anymore.

The thing that has always struck me as odd is that the UZI's chambered in 9mm were SO much louder than all the FAL's in the film which almost sound suppressed. I know Mad Mike Hoare was in on the making of this movie and I wonder why this mistake was made. This is most easily noticed in the scene where Peter and Jessie take turns firing on approaching Simbas as they flee the river bank after Whitty's death.--[[User:Mrmojo32|Mrmojo32]] 19:52, 25 January 2012 (CST)

::ID your posts or no one will answer them (for the most part). [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 19:33, 25 January 2012 (CST)

I think I have it right now. Sorry this is my first posting. --[[User:Mrmojo32|Mrmojo32]] 19:53, 25 January 2012 (CST)

::Welcome to the team :). Its one of my favorite movies as well and I do agree that they dont make them like this anymore. As for your comment. The uzi-sounds of the movie is not original: meaning they werent made for the movie but taken from at least one other movie. That particular weapon sound was used for the Sterling guns used in the James Bond movie "[[Spy Who Loved Me, The|The Spy who loved me]]". In order words the uzi sounds are recycled and not "reliable" unless someone knows specifically that those sounds were recorded from a genuine Uzi from the beginning. As for the FN FAL I agree..Sounds very "subdued" for lack of better words. Perhaps those sounds were recycled too from possibly an unreleated weapon. [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 11:42, 26 January 2012 (CST)

:::They are "stock" sound effects, meaning they are generic gunshots that are from a sound effects library. So when the sound man needs to dub in the sound of an uzi, as in this case, he pulls out a tape(I'm just guessing, but at the time this movies was made it was probably on a reel to reel) and cues it up to the cut that's probably named something like "submachine gun firing". I have always called the the gunshot sounds such as the ones used in ''Wild Geese'' "British Sound Effects", because they can be heard used over and over in British movies from about the Mid 60's through the 80's. The particular gunshot effect used for the uzi sounds somewhat like the real life sound of a Sten gun. Whether or not a sound effects man recorded a Sten gun firing and "enhanced" it to create the "British" submachine gun sound effect, I do not know.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 13:08, 26 January 2012 (CST)

:::: A lot of those came from the stock BBC film library of sound effects. They all sound the same. I've seen films where an XM-177E2 sounded just like a Sten gun. the BBC recorded all manner of World war 2 sound effects, so all of their movie gun noises for the longest time were either British or German WW2 weapons. I remember the gunfire in [[A Bridge Too Far]] sounding weird. The MP40s sounded like MG42s. etc. etc. Come on guys. You all KNOW movie gun noises are never recorded LIVE. They would blow out the microphones if the microphones were set to record any other sound. Ever seen behind the scenes shots of guys shooting guns in a film? The gunfire tops out the auto-LIMITERS on the mikes, and makes them sound muffled (this is done to protect the microphone equipment from damage). All those great gun sound effects are all done in controlled environments with special recording equipment and then edited into the movie later. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 15:06, 26 January 2012 (CST)
:::::You're right about [[A Bridge Too Far]]. I remember there is one scene where the generic submachine gun sound effect that we have just been discussing is used for an MG-34! While we are on the subject of these stock sound effects, there is gunshot that is used for pistols that can be heard all the time in British productions. It can be heard in this clip from Octopussy on Youtube; just jump to the part where Bond kills Orlov's guards and listen to the sound of his pistol: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLu4dTF-sSM&feature=related] A classic "British" sound effect from the BBC library.--[[User:Phillb36|Phillb36]] 21:58, 26 January 2012 (CST)

::::::If we are continuing on the topic of stock-footage/sounds, check out this clip from the movie "The Longest Day". I think they've used more individual weapon sounds to make that movie than there are war-movies! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzd1gCc5CO8 YouTube clip]. [[User:Dudster32|Dudster32]] 10:49, 27 January 2012 (CST)

== Arms embargo comment ==

Under the section for the shortened L1A1 there is the following comment: "''For many years, fans of the film assumed the weapon was a South African R1 Variant, but information directly from the actor reminds us that there was an arms embargo against South Africa during the 1970s (because of apartheid). This was a custom made L1A1 carbine that came from a UK Movie armory''". I don't understand this comment, as this was famously filmed in South Africa, meaning that an arms embargo would mean it was more likely that they would be using South African weapons rather than less right? I'm not disputing that this is a custom L1A1 (it has the L1A1 type carry handle and sights along with not having an actual flash hider just cuts in shortened the barrel), I just don't understand this comment. If there was no problem with them using South African weapons contrary to this comment, that would also explain [[Hardy Krueger]]'s rifle, which appears to be an R1 (wooden stock with metal ferrule, plastic handguard and straight ribbed carry handle). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:10, 27 January 2012 (CST)

== Custom L1A1 Carbine Photoshop ==

After seeing the second appearance of the custom L1A1 carbine in ''[[Firepower]]'', I made a quick photoshop of the gun for illustrative purposes. The scope isn't the right model and there aren't any cuts in the barrel, but would anyone mind if I put this up on the main page? --[[User:Markit|Markit]] 11:33, 16 April 2012 (CDT)

[[File:L1A1Carbine.jpg|thumb|none|500px|L1A1 rifle edited to resemble the custom made L1A1 carbine, as seen in the films ''[[The Wild Geese]]'' and ''[[Firepower]]''.]]

:I made an attempt at this a while ago but forgot about it till seeing yours. This one has the correct sight (I think it called an Armson OEG or something like that but not sure) and the cuts on the barrel (not necessarily correct, but representative). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:28, 16 April 2012 (CDT)
:[[File:L1A1 Wild Geese custom.jpg|thumb|none|500px|]]

The sight is an Armson Occluded Eye Sight, pretty much a 60s version of a red dot. Your right eye is blocked by the sight and only sees the tube (and its bright red dot) and your left eye sees what you're looking at. Together your eyes form an image with the red dot on top of it. I'd recommend looking at their website if only to see the hilarious photoshop jobs that are their flyers.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:13, 16 April 2012 (CDT)

Talk:Heckler & Koch USP

2012-01-31T05:33:08Z

Ranger01: /* USP SD */

==Additional Variants==
[[Image:IMFDB 22 Jack Bauer Live Firing HK USP Compact.jpg|thumb|none|500px|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen-used live firing Heckler & Koch USP Compact. This weapon is verified as screen used from the series '''24.''' The gun was used in numerous scenes throughout Seasons 3 through 8 of the series. IMFDB thanks [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet] for providing this photo.]]
[[Image:ExDeUSP.jpg|none|thumb|500px|Heckler & Koch USP .45 ACP mocked up to resemble a [[Heckler & Koch Mark 23]], with a Knight's Armament UTL (Universal Tactical Light, designed for the USP) and fake Knight's Armament suppressor, used by [[Kurt Russell]] in the film ''[[Executive Decision]]''. (Photo from Long Mountain Outfitters)]]
[[Image:Blade2-2.jpg|thumb|500px|none|Modified H&K USP Match used by [[Wesley Snipes]] in the movies ''[[Blade II]]'' and ''[[Blade: Trinity]]'' - 9x19mm.]]
[[Image:Hk-usp45c.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Heckler & Koch USP Compact - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:USPCompactSS.jpg|thumb|none|500px|H&K USP Compact with Stainless Slide - .45 ACP]]

==Discussion==

This is a great, affordable, light, accurate, and reliable handgun. It has been my BUG for 9 years and I wouldn't have it any other way.

:Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but, "affordable"? Surely you concede that a new USP costs more than any other polymer-framed service pistol on the market (and often more than some steel-framed pistols)? -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 14:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Well yes the USP is expensive but the old fart has gotta point, it's a pretty awesome gun.

Without a doubt my favorite tactical handgun

My favorite is the Expert model

:I would buy a USP45 in a second if they did something about the trigger-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]]
--You CAN take it to a gunsmith and have the trigger cleaned up. You might try the Expert model or the Mark 23 if you want a better trigger. Heck, if you're going to go spend $1,500 to $2,000 on a gun, might as well get something you like. I honestly would rather spend that kind of money on a Les Baer or something, but the USP is good too.

I have a question, is the USP Match just a regular USP with the compensator? Are there any othere differences? Is the compensator removable?

It has target sights, an adjustable trigger, and the barrel is extended. The compensator can be removed, but doing so leaves you with a rather awkward looking barrel. It also has the same rubber o-ring around the barrel that the Mk. 23 has.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 18:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I love the gun except it's got one squeeky ass trigger.

-The best two USP models are the Expert and the Mark 23. That's coming directly from my friends who have shot both in IDPA for years. The Expert and Mark 23 both have better, more cleaned up triggers compared to the base USP models. All of them are exceptionally accurate and reliable. The only compromise you have to make is in the wallet. They aren't cheap.

It has everything. Accurate, lightweight, high ammo capacity, virtually indestructible. But it's big (big grip - don't believe me - hold a Mark 23). And they are expensive.

Funny how its a $1,000 dollar gun yet has a horrible DA trigger pull. I would expect it from a Glock at $500 but a USP? Really?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

==LAPD service weapons==

Is it legal for LAPD to use USPs in real life or was it just made up for 24?

It's not an official issue weapon, at least according to Wikipedia. Only the Beretta 92, various S&W Automatics and Glocks. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 20:17, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information, because it is a Wiki like IMFDB. --[[User:L.J. Gibbs|L.J. Gibbs]] 19:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

: I know for fact the LAPD does use the Beretta (I would think it's kinda common-knowledge, at least to us gun guys), and I have seen LAPD officers with a couple of different S&W autos. I also agree that the USP is not any official service weapon (or at least, I seriously doubt it is). [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

LAPD also uses the Kimber TLE II 1911. (They call it the LAPD SWAT Custom). But detectives use this gun as well as LAPD SWAT teams.

I've never seen any LAPD officers with Glocks. Just about all of them have the Beretta 92FS because that's their standard issue sidearm. And the occasional old-timers with the 6-shooter .38 Specials.

I don't know of a single police department in the United States that uses H&K handguns. More or less because of the price. They do use H&K MP5s on SWAT teams. Although I see that phased out more and more in favor of the M4A1.
:The NJ State Police used HK P7's back in the 80's. I remember a state trooper came to my school to do a presentation, and he mentioned that unlike other pistols, you had to squeeze it to cock it. I don't remember if it was the P7M8 or P7M13, but according to HKpro, it was the P7M8. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 21:39, 14 July 2011 (CDT)

Apparently H&K USP compacts and H&K P2000s are currently used by US Border Patrols.

LAPD is transitioning to Glock, Upland uses USP i believe, and USP is on the LASD approved carry list. [[User:Mercer|Mercer]] 04:07, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

There are a few that issue them.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 03:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The Maine State Police use the USP .45.

==Slide==
Does the USP have a stamped or milled slide? I've heard it both ways. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

-It's CNC milled.

--[[User:Littlesoldier1|Littlesoldier1]] 02:24, 17 December 2011 (CST)

== Who uses HK USP? ==

I was reading the "Smokin' Aces" page,and there was a note,that FBI doesn't use USP.That is interesting to me.Why?
And,does somebody knows,who uses USP now?

For one, the German Military. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_USP#Users Beyond that?] [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:22, 17 December 2011 (CST)

: Maine State Police use USP45s. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 22:00, 17 December 2011 (CST)

== USP SD ==
http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/pistols/usp/usp-sd/overview.html

The new version of the USP Tactical is now called the USP SD, and it doesn't have any special words on the slide. Otherwise it's the same; threaded barrel, target sights, and an extended magwell. 9mm only, I don't know if the Tactical was too. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 13:32, 30 January 2012 (CST)

IIRC the Tactical was originally .45 only, then 9mm came later.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:33, 30 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Battlefield 3

2012-01-22T22:47:53Z

Ranger01: /* Pancor Jackhammer */

See [[Talk:Battlefield 3/Archive 1]] for older discussions.

__TOC__

== Why am I not surprised? ==

Part of me isn't too surprised that the CODMW3 article would be taken off the Work in Progress Status in a much shorter time than BF3's page. Personally I think MW3 committed a war crime with how atrocious the M16A4 looks both in the first person and 3rd person models of it. [[User:DarkSamuraiX1999|DarkSamuraiX1999]] 00:00, 16 November 2011

:Just the M16? :/ Hell, the P99 is the only pistol where they didn't get something wrong. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:14, 16 November 2011 (CST)

:It has more to do with the fact that MW3 makes more mistakes and therefore is far more fun to write about. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:18, 16 November 2011 (CST)

::My personal favourite screw up in MW3 has to be the Skorpion's scope rail mount, with the "MG36" as a close runner up. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:02, 16 November 2011 (CST)

::I still mad about the fact they suddenly decided that it'll better that the M4A1 will have a 20-round magazine rather than a 30-round magazine -_- --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 03:05, 16 November 2011 (CST)

:::Lol good points all around. I'm not too knowledgeable on everything but I'm in the service and I use the M16A4 often. So it stuck out like a sore thumb the moment I picked up the rifle in the game that something was really freaking off about it. Like it wasn't already bad having 30 rounds come out of a 20 round mag. But bolt on rails to A2 Handguards? Really?! XDDD I don't know how accurate that P99 is, but it irks the hell out of me seeing it held one handed in the First Person Model. [[User:DarkSamuraiX1999|DarkSamuraiX1999]] 00:25 16 November 2011

Ya know? It's funny that the "fact" they are using military advisers to make the game better in "tactics" and stuff (yeah, right), this military advisers or what ever, aren't aware of the way the developers model the weapons and doesn't 100% reassemble to the real life one's :/ I guess the developers tell them "We don't really give a damn about realism, just tell us how the hell modern warfare works"... Still, the guys of BF3 made a bit better, though it does have also many things unrealistic, like the fact Marines are using M16A3's instead of M16A4's, and some of them running with an M240 like it a was wooden gun. Sigh. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 02:57, 16 November 2011 (CST)

:The thing about an advisor is that his job is to answer questions. It's up to the developers if they a) ask him the right questions and b) pay attention to his answers. I believe ''Star Trek's'' science advisors have publically complained that they're only asked for advice on what terminology to use and never on whether something is actually good science. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:15, 16 November 2011 (CST)

One thing SP Campaign of BF3 proves is that BF3 shouldn't have SP Campaign in the first place. One would expect it to be more authentic, yet it takes approach of CoD: "We just put randomly weapons we have in MP whether or not they fit in". So suddenly we have Marines with M16A3s and M240Bs (instead of M16A4s and M240Gs), insurgents (exactly insurgents and not organized militia from pre-alpha trailers) with AK-74Ms and AEK-971s (instead of AK-47s / AKMs), Spetsnaz member Vladimir with 5.56 A-91 (despite Russian forces simply not using this caliber even for SF), etc. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:27, 16 November 2011 (CST)

:Let's not forget that the protagonist of the game, Blackburn, during the interrogations scenes, you can see his name and branch tags that they're in white and straight rather than MARPAT and in an angle with the chest pockets. Also, one of the the guys in Blackburn's team, though I can't remember his exact name (the guy who carries M136 all the time), wears MultiCam OCP, still, rather than MARPAT uniform. Eventually, war games wouldn't be realistic as real life, even in the small parts. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 11:22, 16 November 2011 (CST)

::Except my games (If I ever make games). :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 11:34, 16 November 2011 (CST)

::Plus, they (Marines) get CAS from Little Birds. Apparently, to the game devs the terms 'US Army' and 'USMC' are interchangeable. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:50, 16 November 2011 (CST)

:I don't recall the insurgents using AEK-971s in the Iran missions, usually it was a random stew of your typical AKS-74u, AK-74M (don't real militants from the former Soviet bloc use the more modern 5.45 AK-74 at times?), RPKs, and the KH2002. However, the terrorists with Solomon from later on in the story do use all this, and even more somewhat outlandish equipment. Also, since the page is incomplete, can you explain to me how you identify the Marine's M16 models as the A3 versions? During the campaign I recall Blackburn's M16 as being able to fire in fully automatic. (Except that one mission where you inexplicably jump off with an HK416) Also, didn't Vladimir use the AS VAL throughout the Spetsnaz missions? And although it's not top-notch realistic Ala ''The Hurt Locker'', I wouldn't exactly outright call it the CoD approach. I mean, just look at what they did with Black Ops. Pointing out every inaccuracy in that game is to the point of turning it into a drinking game. Long Fallen 17:49, 16 November 2011 (CST)

::Other than that one HK416 Blackburn had, which was odd, if they worst things the Marines had were M16A3s instead of A4s and M240Bs instead of M240Gs, then I'm happy enough. And the PLR only had 74Ms, 74Us, and RPKs if I remember correctly, the later enemies had AEKs. All the weird guns were given to Kaffarov's private army, as he is an arms dealer. It's like complaining you see a few M1928s instead of M1A1s in a WWII movie. Black Ops.. is Black Ops, and MW3 had FADs in the hands of African militia... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:20, 16 November 2011 (CST)

::Maybe it is related to the "AKS-74U vs. UMP issue": in some of the videos of "Operation Swordbreaker", inside of the building, leading to anti-sniper position, one of the insurgents is certainly equipped with AEK-971, with others having AKS-74U and AK-74M (AK-74 would be correct for former Soviet bloc militant but not AK-74M unless he managed to scavenge it from Russian soldier). For M16A3, check one of the Marines on the way to bridge in the same mission. And while Kiril used the AS "Val", Vladimir used the 5.56 A-91. And yes, as Alex said, Black Ops... is Black Ops *sadface* --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:17, 17 November 2011 (CST)

:::You are right, that one insurgent always has an AEK, but that's an exception. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:31, 17 November 2011 (CST)

Cod always screws up the guns
:What does that have to do with Battlefield 3? [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:12, 22 January 2012 (CST)

== Sidearms ==

Has anyone else noticed Campo carries ''two'' sidearms, one on his chest and one by his hip? Looks like two Glocks.

[[Image:BF3-Glock-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Ten more and he'll be a Glockenspiel.]]

[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:18, 18 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm sorry, but that caption was just too good. On topic however, it seems as if the handgun holstered on his chest seems pretty low res to be made out. Could it be a designer oversight or something? - Long Fallen 17:21, 18 November 2011 (CST)

::Maybe they are copying Epps from [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon]], he nonsensically carries a pair of Glocks in the same way as well... --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:31, 18 November 2011 (CST)

::Well, that's the Assault kit's chest, with the Glock and all, so they most likely gave him a leg holster and forgot about that one. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:01, 19 November 2011 (CST)

:::It's like in MW2 where the snipers carry unusable M1911. Although it is peculiar that the Marine in this game carries unusable Glock and not M9 or MEU(SOC). --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:17, 19 November 2011 (CST)

== BTK Weapons ==

Finally! http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Blogs.Components.WeblogFiles/battlefield_5F00_bad_5F00_company/Back_2D00_to_2D00_Karkand_2D00_Assignments.jpg

:MG36 and Jackhammer? Guess the XM8 and plasma rifle will be in the next DLC. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:30, 19 November 2011 (CST)

:I guess that confirms that there will be no PLA Faction DLC *sadface* I still hope for EU Faction :|
:Also confirmed that HK53 is back intact :)
:--[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:33, 19 November 2011 (CST)

::Why do they choose to include the "HK" prefix in the HK53, but not on the M416? [[User:Santos|Santos]] 11:26, 19 November 2011 (CST)

:::I'll ask Demize why this HK is okay (and the HK21 in BF2). Actually, they hinted they might do more weapon DLCs later, so I'm expecting a "Back To Bad Company" pack with all three XM8s and other stuff. Also, not a plasma rifle, but I've always thought it'd be cool to see Halo guns in another game, the human ones. For those of you that don't know, they all make functional sense. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 12:48, 19 November 2011 (CST)

::::lol yeah all those functional Spartan Lasers we have lying around. Though it would be cool to see an NTW-20 in a videogame. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 22:45, 11 December 2011 (CST)

:::::[http://www.moddb.com/mods/point-of-existence-2/images/ntw-20-anti-material-rifle Have] [http://www.moddb.com/mods/point-of-existence-2/images/ntw-20-anti-material-rifle1 you] [http://www.moddb.com/mods/point-of-existence-2/images/ntw-20-anti-material-rifle2 said] [http://www.moddb.com/mods/point-of-existence-2/images/ntw-20-anti-material-rifle3 NTW-20]? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 00:34, 12 December 2011 (CST)

== RPK ==

Incidentally, I need to check if the RPK-74 has a flash hider. If not, with wood furniture and a ribbed metal magazine, it's actually an RPK with a sight rail, not a -74 at all. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:10, 19 November 2011 (CST)

:Maybe I didn't spend enough time using it, but I remember it having black furniture. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 12:44, 19 November 2011 (CST)

::Checking my PS3 video captures it's very dark brown; more to the point, though, it's got that standard AK-style handguard with two holes through the middle (with a RIS foregrip sticking out the bottom, admittedly); the -M polymer handguard is a different shape and has ridges all along the top of the gas tube.

::[[Image:Soviet RPK-74.jpg|thumb|none|600px|RPK-74 light machine gun with 45-round box magazine - 5.45x39mm]]
::[[Image:rpk74m.jpg|thumb|none|601px|RPK-74M light machine gun with 45-round box magazine - 5.45x39mm]]
::[[File:BF3-RPK-1.jpg|thumb|none|601px|]]

::If it doesn't have a flash hider, I think that makes it an RPK. I thought I could see one there, but in my PS3 video it looks like it doesn't have one and the in-world and pickup models don't have one either. I was going to say "except the scope mount" but MPM's RPK image has one:

::[[Image:RPK lmg.jpg|thumb|none|600px|RPK Light Machine Gun with 40 round magazine - 7.62x39mm]]

::Is this normal? From what I'd read the scope bracket was an -M thing. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:35, 20 November 2011 (CST)

:::Thanks for clearing up the RPK differences, as for the scope rail, scopes are nice to have sometimes, I'm sure some of the older RPKs were fitted with scope mounts as aftermarket parts in real life. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:06, 20 November 2011 (CST)
::::As the RPK in the game only has the bracket fitted when a sight is there, I would certainly put it in the "aftermarket" category. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:37, 20 November 2011 (CST)
:::::Oh right, just like the AKS-74U becomes an AKS-74UN when mounted with optics. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:47, 20 November 2011 (CST)

:Just to assure you this ''does'' happen (it's so nice having a PS3 video of half the game to pull shots from):

:[[Image:BF3-RPKForegrip.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

:RPK with inexplicable foregrip. I'd just forgotten they don't all have that. Also, is it just me or is the scope mounting screwed to the side of the dust cover rather than attached to a bracket? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:58, 21 November 2011 (CST)

== Single Action Army ==

Just letting you guys know, as stated on its page it is called Single Action Army on this site as there are so many nearly identical replicas calling it the more correct Colt 1873 might actually be wrong, and SAA is used as a catch-all term. However, just as we assume a full-size Glock is a 17 unless we can tell otherwise, we also assume a gun in a game is not a clone, unless we can tell otherwise. Therefore, it is assumed that the drawing of the SAA is the original Colt 1873, and should be named as such. This is just to avoid an edit war, or something. :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:28, 19 November 2011 (CST)

== M224 ==

I don't know about Xbox, but on the PS3 the M224 definitely has an M7 baseplate in multiplayer. --[[User:SmithandWesson36|SmithandWesson36]] 15:54, 19 November 2011 (CST)

:Yup, it has one on 360. Lol at the baseplate having a designation :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:19, 19 November 2011 (CST)

::Feel free to change it, I was going off it not having one in single. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 17:31, 19 November 2011 (CST)

== Kaffarov's Private Army ==

While I understand that Kaffarov is an arms dealer, it boggles my mind how so many times in fiction there are people who are able to procure such military spec equipment like the F2000, Mk.17 (SCAR-H), AEK-971, and so many others. Surely the companies and or countries that produce them don't freely sell them to whatever buyers there are? My question is how would people like Kaffarov even be able to avoid the system and acquire such equipment? I don't know if it has been answered elsewhere, or for obvious reasons '''hasn't''', but it's just something that I haven't been able to explain logically. -- Long Fallen 18:03, 19 November 2011 (CST)

:Reminds me of [http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Legionnaire Legionnaire] from [http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Battlefield:_Bad_Company Battlefield: Bad Company]. And that guy paid his mercenaries in ''gold bars'', mind you. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 00:51, 20 November 2011 (CST)

:Kaffarov... Makarov... Kaffarov... Makarov... Is it only me or does BF3 is trying to copy MW3 in many matters? :/ --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 23:29, 19 November 2011 (CST)

::Um, what's so suspicious about Russian (or Russified) surname ending in -ev or -ov? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 00:51, 20 November 2011 (CST)

::I'm not sure either, but it lets us have the cool guns people don't really use, so it gets a pass in my books. Also, those two names aren't really that similar, and the characters are nothing alike. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:12, 20 November 2011 (CST)

:To answer the question, no. Any customer who could afford top-drawer equipment would be dealing directly with the company that made it, the kinds of people who go to dodgy arms dealers want weapons that are simple enough to equip illiterate militiamen with, cheap enough to equip a ''lot'' of them with, and have widely available spare parts and ammunition. It's no longer the era when unpaid former Soviet commanders would empty entire arms depots onto the black market and flee to countries that don't have extradition treaties with Russia, and no longer the era when you could get a superpower to pony up a whole bunch of equipment and training just by saying you were fighting for / against communism. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:46, 20 November 2011 (CST)

::I see, but I recall this story from a few years back -[http://www.expatica.com/be/news/local_news/factory-tightens-security-after-gun-thefts-23226.html Stolen Five-seveNs from FNH factories] (I had no idea the P90 was a handgun xD) - And then there's this too -[http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20081112_worrying_signs_border_raids Mexican drug cartels being armed with P90s and Five-seveNs] So I still want to know, what are the likely chances of seeing terrorists with such equipment? I mean, these articles seem to bring it to light. (Sorry if I'm going off topic) -- Long Fallen 00:42, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::With Mexico it's a situation where a lot of the top-class armament is purchased in the United States and smuggled across the border; similar arrangements were used to smuggle arms to the IRA during The Troubles in Northern Ireland. That's the "buying directly from the supplier" kind of deal, and is usually done without a dealer acting as an intermediary (because the Cartels have enough money to do it themselves, or take the weapons in part payment for supplying product to drug dealers). Your typical Eastern Bloc / African arms dealer just buys up weapons somewhere a war is ending and ships them to where a war is still going on, because the buyers don't have the contacts, legitimacy or resources to do it by themselves. A lot of the guns these guys circulate have been involved in local conflicts for years or even decades.

:::Top-end hardware typically comes from governments and organisations. Insurgents in Iraq didn't get top-of-the-line anti-tank weapons and training in making IEDs from some guy in the business of moving weapons, they got them from sympathisers in places like Iran. Alarmism about what ''kind'' of weapons terrorists have is pretty foolish anyway, since generally they prefer the instant, indiscriminate destruction of explosives to trying to shoot people with a gun. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:58, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::Ah, I see, thanks for enlightening me :) -- Long Fallen 20:25, 21 November 2011 (CST)

Whoever said "a lot of the top-class armament...blah blah Mexico... smuggled from US..." is rather wrong. The Mexican cartels who have P90s and M16s and etc western weaponry are getting it from the Mexican military and police, only a small percentage of the guns near the US border are actually smuggled in to Mexico from the US. The numbers seem higher because recently Mexico has been sending in stores of arms they have confiscated over the past X amount of years (that they know can be most likely traced to the US) to get traced at the same time. This leads to a overblown number that looks good on anti-firearms pamphlets. If you think about it a bit, what do you think would be easier and cheaper:

1. Finding and paying someone to buy 10 semi-automatic guns in the US at ridiculous prices, risking him getting caught, losing your money, going through all the background checks, etc, then sneaking them over the border. Not to mention finding ammo.

Or

2a. Paying some guerrillas in some SA country x amount of dope to bring in a ship, container, truck, or plane full of 100s or 1000s of eastern bloc or former US military weaponry, that is most likely going to be fully automatic. Plus large quantities of ammo for said weaponry.

2b. Stealing or buying from a corrupt military/ police official brand new weaponry.

The "X% of guns in Mexico are from the US" myth is a fallacy created by the Mexican and US govts and heavily compounded by the ATF smuggling them themselves or letting them walk, and the FBI for not laying out the specifics of the stats. Then the subsequent (ratings improving) media hype compounds it further.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it is greatly exaggerated.

Now as for how someone like Kaffarov would get the weaponry, its pretty simple. 1. Start a (possibly dummy) corporation (possibly in a different country). 2. Buy from a manufacturer saying they are intended for "security", or "testing", or hell, even arming your own "PMC". 3.Lock and load. How do you think PMCs such as Xe (Blackwater), AirScan, Aegis DS, etc.. get their new "HSLD" weaponry? Most international arms trafficking treaties do not extend to selling firearms to private entities in the same way they do governments.
Respectfully, the (somewhat intoxicated)-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 02:33, 22 November 2011 (CST)

:I wasn't saying it's the majority source, just the source of the more pricey / modern equipment. These people have supply networks that move ''tons'' of drugs across the border, they're not going to consider moving guns in the other direction a substantial risk; one would imagine their US buyers are probably the same people who buy their drugs, considering they're already going to be smuggling stuff back as payment and keeping their activities secret. Most of the weapons they get from the US aren't purchased legally (the big myth is they're bought legitimately from normal gun stores, SO WE MUST CLAMP DOWN ON THIS). Most of their stuff is indeed bought in from other sources, but weapons like the Barretts aren't going to be coming from just anywhere, and there ''is'' precedent from this happening in Northern Ireland where the IRA got a lot of their best weapons from Irish expatriates in America.

:As for Kaffarov, the main problem with the mythical top-end arms dealer is who he's supposed to sell these rare weapons on to, not how he'd get them himself. Sure, if it's ''just'' equipment for his private troops he might splash out, but he wouldn't be wholesaling in exotic arms with rare ammo and parts because nobody would buy them, plus he'd have problems with the companies he's buying from wondering why their weapons are suddenly turning up in conflict zones in the exact quantity they're selling them to his shell company. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:42, 22 November 2011 (CST)

::I know who! He's obviously selling to the Russian Army, Brazilian and African militants, and Makarov's terrorists in MW2 and MW3! [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:32, 23 November 2011 (CST)

: From what I remember in the BF3 novel Kaffarov was a former GRU agent handling weapons and training with then political ally Iran, who got too deep in the local agendas and was probably compromised. IN the novel his weapons were less new (Uzis and shit), but I could totally buy that Kaffarov was still connected enough to Russia's arms trade that he could probably weasel crates of AEK971s out of them without too much trouble. Supposedly that's how Solomon got the suitcase nukes in the first place anyway, off Kaffarov. (as a note the book's plot is little more coherent than the game, probably worth the pickup if you're trying to dissect the game's narrative.)--[[User:Toadie|Toadie]] 04:17, 26 November 2011 (CST)

:This entire discussion is clearly a case of thinking way harder about what Kaffarov is hypothetically capable of procuring for his men than DICE did while they were working on the game. As for the whole "Mexico Gun Smuggling Debate" - try reading some academic reports on the subject before claiming that the statistics were cooked up ([http://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/Chapter%206-%20U.S.%20Firearms%20Trafficking%20to%20Mexico,%20New%20Data%20and%20Insights%20Illuminate%20Key%20Trends%20and%20Challenges.pdf Wilson Centre: U.S Firearms Trafficking to Mexico] is a long read, but it does illuminate the various ways guns are smuggled and how they are interdicted) --[[User:Markit|Markit]] 16:41, 23 November 2011 (CST)

well look at the Libyan civil war were both sides were able to get massive amounts of G-36s --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 20:38, 23 November 2011 (CST)

Most of the weapons such as Barretts, M16s, etc.. are coming from the Mexican military. As for the IRA in the 80s I know all about that, that was a different time. Many things happened back then that could not happen now. Plus the IRA stopped getting guns from the US when they realized it was easier to get them from places like Palestine and etc..
With Libya... well HK is in deep right now for selling to some state police in Mexico that they shouldn't be selling to, it wouldn't surprise me if they sold to Libya and other places.
And Markit, the report you linked to actually states in a couple places that the reports are skewed by many factors.
This can state the facts better than I can: http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/90PercentMyth.pdf
-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 00:57, 24 November 2011 (CST)
:There was also an incident during the Georgia-Russia war where Georgian SF were seen with G36s that they previously weren't known to have. HK weapons are turning up in all kinds of strange places. :S [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:28, 25 November 2011 (CST)

:@Ranger01 - There's no verifiable proof that all those high-end weapons are coming solely from Mexican law enforcement - last time I checked, they could get better weapons than the FN PS90s, Romanian WASR clones, MAK-90s, AR-15 clones with the post-ban features, SKS rifles with Tapco furniture etc. that have been turning up in seizures of cartel arsenals. I know that the 90% statistic was erroneous, but I also do not believe that the percentage is only 12% according to your report (extrapolating only from serial numbers is faulty in itself when criminals usually take measures to remove/modify them). Besides, the "most deadliest weapons come from Central America" does not equal "most of the weapons come from Central America", which seems to be the tack that your article is taking. Also erroneous is the claim that Mexican military personnel are defecting and taking "American-made" weapons with them - the "150,000" figure was for desertions (which take place for any number of reasons in a conscription-based system) and most soldiers are armed with Mexican-produced versions of H&K weapons.

::On an additional note, the G36s that were seen in Libya were likely a gray market sale - a firm buys the weapons with the end user certificate for one country, ships them there, then transfers them to the actual destination. A more controversial story would be that FN directly sold several hundred FN 2000s, FN 303s and P90s to Libya in 2009-2010. --[[User:Markit|Markit]] 18:32, 25 November 2011 (CST)

:::Politics aside, F2000s would be ''great'' for a desert country; they're almost airtight. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:22, 26 November 2011 (CST)

::::Well Saudi Arabia did adopt the F2000 as their standard rifle. -- Long Fallen 21:16, 26 November 2011 (CST)

:::::Hmm, didn't know that. As probably most of us are, I haven't had hands on on most of these, but am well read on them, and the F2000 would be one of my first choices of assault rifle if I had a country/army :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 21:51, 26 November 2011 (CST)

::::::Now it's just a matter or wondering if they'll ever get around to using them... Sad is the day when hundreds of beautiful F2000s sit untouched in Arabian armories, gathering up dust. It's enough to bring a tear to any IMFDB user's eye xD -- Long Fallen 02:43, 27 November 2011 (CST)

:::::::Researchers point to '''Heckler & Koch G3A3''' being replaced with '''Steyr AUG''' in Saudi Arabian Army[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_standard_infantry_rifle_for_saudi_arabian_army][http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110305182603AA3EBn4] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:13, 27 November 2011 (CST)

::::::::So the SA National Guard bought the 55,000 F2000s... but the AUG was on issue? Did it replace the AUG? The standard rifle is the G3A3 as of now? A lot of this information feels so outdated. -- Long Fallen 16:19, 27 November 2011 (CST)

:::::::::Saudi Arabian National Guard is separate from Saudi Arabian Army. An analogy would be 'Waffen-SS' (SANG) and 'Wehrmacht' (SAA)[http://www.dnipogo.org/fcs/comments/c424.htm] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:08, 28 November 2011 (CST)

== Blackburn from BHD ?? ==

Go see the Colt M4 section and the M4 series below it is said that Black burn holds M4 quite often. I would like to ask is this Blackburn any how related to Todd Blackburn from Black Hawk Down, the Ranger who fell from the Black Hawk chopper? - [[S9771773G]] 09:47, 20 November 2011 (GMT)

:I imagine it's just a coincidence, Blackburn is a "heroic" surname like Carver or Slater or whatever. I'd have thought if they were referencing Black Hawk Down they'd have named him after someone like Shughart or Gordon, really. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:08, 20 November 2011 (CST)

:Doubt it. 'Battlefield 3' is unrelated to 'Black Hawk Down', plus, Todd Blackburn is Army Ranger while Henry Blackburn is Marine Recon. Proper analogy would be Patterson's from 'Medal of Honor' series. Both are in Army and [http://medalofhonor.wikia.com/wiki/Jim_Patterson one] is actually the grandson of [http://medalofhonor.wikia.com/wiki/James_Steven_Patterson another]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:19, 20 November 2011 (CST)
:'''P.S.''' Although, this would explain the appearance of Little Birds...

::There's also the fact that Todd Blackburn is a real person while Henry Blackburn is a fictional one. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:14, 20 November 2011 (CST)

:::True, there is even a page on [http://www.aweekendofheroes.com/vips/todd-blackburn.php Todd Blackburn]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:27, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::From the link posted by Masterius: "In reality, it is not known why Blackburn lost his grip on the rope and is generally assumed that his inexperience led to his fall ('''However, Master Sergeant Matt Eversmann states that around the time when Blackburn fell, the UH60 canted slightly, and had to put his hand down to stay upright'''. The ranger that roped in after Blackburn also swears that he had grabbed the rope.) Additionally, the film incorrectly portrays Blackburn as a new arrival to Somalia, when in reality he had been in country for the same amount of time as the rest of his Company."
::::Um... why would Matt Eversmann have any trouble staying upright in said canting helicopter ''when he was in a Humvee on the ground''? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:22, 25 November 2011 (CST)

:::::[http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/default16.asp Because he was, in fact, in a Blackhawk?] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 15:00, 25 November 2011 (CST)
:::::'''P.S.''' ^ Oh, the age there is said to be 18, and "just months out of a Florida high school", instead of 20, and "had been in country for the same amount of time as the rest of his Company". So which of the descriptions is the correct one?

::::::They'd said on the DVD commentary as well as in the History Channel documentary about the raid that Eversmann was with the convoy the whole time. Guess they didn't have their facts straight. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:16, 26 November 2011 (CST)

:::::::He was the leader of Chalk Four as shown in the film and was inserted by Black Hawk, callsign Super 67. He didn't go to the crash site as shown in the film though, instead he was part of "The Lost Convoy" carrying the captured prisoners, think that is what you are thinking of. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:36, 26 November 2011 (CST)

::::An interesting thing I found about Todd Blackburn was that he was born on October 25, the same date that BF3 was released, maybe that date was selected on purpose by DICE? [[User:Nohomers48|Nohomers48]] 19:34, 2 December 2011 (CST)

:::::Now this is intriguing... --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:01, 3 December 2011 (CST)

I can tell you without any doubts that BF3 has several [[Generation Kill]] references. For example:

- The main protagonist is part of the 1st Reconnaissance Battalion.

- When driving towards Tehran in the humvees and complaining that they signed up for an ambush, the driver says "Frankly gentleman, I'm not hearing the aggression I'd like. Keep scanning". Which is a reference to the 5th episode "A Burning Dog" when the team leaders are preparing to clear out an ambush by a bridge.

- When Henry Blackburn and Co. drives in a convoy to capture Kaffarov the arms dealers. Matkovic, the guy wearing MultiCam OCP and the AT4, was sleeping on the convoy and when woken up he says "thirty four minutes... I've been asleep for thirty four minutes drinking a vanilla milkshake." Also a reference from the 5th episode A Burning Dog, when Ray Person wakes Brad Colbert to a team leader meeting, Brad responds "fifty six minutes. I've been asleep for fifty six minutes".

[[User:Santos|Santos]] 08:00, 20 November 2011 (CST)

:Not to mention the character named Chaffin. There's more, I'll have to play it again to find them all.-protoAuthor 23:16, 24 November 2011 (CST)

== M203 Dog tag ==

I was watching my new unlocked dog tags on Battlelog, and saw that the 40mm GL proficiency Dog tag has an M203 in the background.
Should it be added to the list of weapons appearing in the game?

http://battlelog-cdn.battlefield.com/public/profile/bf3/stats/dogtags/lb/dtb094.png?v=1628729

[[User:Santos|Santos]] 05:59, 23 November 2011 (CST)

:Yes it should, like the SAA. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:29, 23 November 2011 (CST)

:Yeah, though I would prefer these as full screenshots if possible (ie someone unlocking / viewing them), I never like pages full of different aspect ratios and weird tiny images. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:37, 23 November 2011 (CST)

:Well since we're mentioning weapons appearing on dog tags but not the actual game for usage, the USAS-12 proficiency dog tag has a SPAS-12 silhouette for some reason. It was probably directly ported from Bad Company 2 given how it looks. -- Long Fallen 17:59, 23 November 2011 (CST)

::Quite a number are, the SCAR-H is a SCAR-L. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:37, 23 November 2011 (CST)

::It actually peeves me that many of the assault rifle proficiency dog tags use the icons for the Bad Company 2 models, like most of the assault rifles equipped with grenade launchers. Especially the F2000 one, which isn't even possible to have an underslung grenade launcher, let alone the EGLM pictured on it. :P -- Long Fallen 21:05, 23 November 2011 (CST)

:::You'd be wrong about the F2000 not being able to take a grenade launcher.

:::[[Image:Fn f2000 3.jpg‎|thumb|none|500px|FN F2000 - 5.56x45mm NATO with [[FN EGLM|FN GL1]] - 40mm]]

:::[[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 22:38, 24 November 2011 (CST)

::::Ah, sorry, I should've made it clear that while the dog tag shows off the EGLM, you can't mount any kind of grenade launcher to the F2000 itself to use. -- Long Fallen 00:42, 25 November 2011 (CST)

:::::You mean ''in the game''. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 01:05, 26 November 2011 (CST)

== Going Rambo ==

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMcM7OpC2dI&hd=1

Just how realistic is it? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:02, 29 November 2011 (CST)

:I think they should implement an overheating system for all the light machineguns. Just like in Battlefield 2. [[User:Santos|Santos]] 06:33, 30 November 2011 (CST)

::Barrel changes would be more interesting, I think. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:32, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:::And then there will be people complaining that Battlefield is becoming simulator. Rather odd, since magazine system and overheating system were part of the core Battlefield games since the beginning... Sigh, Bad Company... --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:52, 1 December 2011 (CST)

== Back to Karkand ==

There's an expansion pack coming out in December, and it's going to have ten new guns and four new vehicles.

Here's a list of the weapons that I can absolutely confirm from seeing in the kill-feed in the trailers:

MG36 with a top rail instead of the carrying handle/optics

L85A2

QBZ-95B

QBU-88

FAMAS (Looks to be the Felin version)

There also looks to be some sort of Kalashnikov style weapon, but it's not shown clearly enough for me to recognize.

Here are the trailers if you feel like playing Where's Waldo:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=TyN_Zjw4l-s Overall Trailer]

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjTmieRMKjo Karkand Trailer]

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emGXp-qRrVg Oman Trailer]

Also of note, I have the PC version and just about all the weapons unlocked. I might upload screenshots if I get the chance.
--[[User:AchingScaphoid|AchingScaphoid]] 08:12, 29 November 2011 (CST)

:Unless they've got the screenshot feature working now, you'll need FRAPS to get screenshots. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:20, 29 November 2011 (CST)

:There are 2 AK variants in the first trailer you posted, I think the first is an [[AKM]], second is the same [[AKS-74U]] with the incorrect milled receiver as seen in the main game. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 08:37, 29 November 2011 (CST)

:The L85 is in the first trailer, although very briefly. 0.37, there's an L85. Old plastic handguard, RIS instead of the 19mm rail. No idea on the optic, other than it not being a SUSAT. --[[User:Spanner|Spanner]]

::I think it might be an Elcan of some sort but not sure. The newest modification to the L85A2 replaces the old rail with a MIL-STD-1913 rail and is fitted with an Elcan Spectre with a piggybacked CCO. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:08, 29 November 2011 (CST)

:::I've also seen real L85s with ACOGs, so using that could be authentic for optics. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:13, 29 November 2011 (CST)

::::An ACOG on a MIL-STD-1913 would be incorrect though. British ACOGs have a proprietary mount for the original 19mm rail. Any gun that is fitted with the new rail will be using the ELCAN. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 04:35, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:::::Indeed:
:::::[http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL069/upload/2008/02/2_acog.jpg L85A2 with ACOG on mount]
:::::[http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee252/TarnishUK/SpecterOS4x.jpg L85A2 with Specter on rail]
:::::--[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:41, 1 December 2011 (CST)

I added them to the page, feel free to expand them. This picture was on the Blog a few weeks back, it shows all 10 weapons:

http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Blogs.Components.WeblogFiles/battlefield_5F00_bad_5F00_company/Back_2D00_to_2D00_Karkand_2D00_Assignments.jpg

[[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:12, 29 November 2011 (CST)

:List of all weapons and attachments in BtK expansion:

:http://mp1st.com/2011/11/30/the-complete-list-of-bf3-back-to-karkand-weapons-and-attachments-revealed/

:--[[User:Wikinerd|Wikinerd]] 09:04, 30 November 2011 (CST)

::Really, the best they could manage was photos of someone's TV? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:21, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not too sure what to think of the Pancor Jackhammer being in this game, I mean, we've already got the USAS-12 as the automatic shotgun, if they wanted to add in another one, they could've just added in the AA-12. Anyone kinda with me on this? - Long Fallen 14:20, 3 December 2011 (CST)

::Not a fan of automatic shotguns anyway, since they, technically, overshadow the semi-automatic ones (because of selective fire). --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:12, 5 December 2011 (CST)

:::The USAS-12 has competition with the Jackhammer, I haven't unlocked it yet but I remember picking up a kit with the Jackhammer and it was like using a slightly lower capacity DAO-12 with it's 6+1 rounds but with automatic fire rate. This video shows some gameplay, extended mags give it 13+1 magazine capacity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95ICdl9fsE&feature=related It's apparently "slower than the USAS" from what little experience I've had with it and from people I've asked about it [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 06:12, 15 December 2011 (CST)

== MG36 ==
I know that there were only 100 or so MG36s made, but isn't a standard G36 with a bipod foregrip and a double drum mag exactly the same thing? I get that if there's one in a movie it will actually be a G36 with bipod and drum added, but in a game can't it be called an MG36 since it didn't start as something else? Also, it IS an MG, not an AR, unless the RPK, M27, and QBB-95 are ARs too. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:21, 30 November 2011 (CST)
:An MG36 has a bipod handguard, C-mag, ''and'' a heavy barrel and reinforced action. This, like basically every other MG36 that has appeared in anything, is based on a standard G36 with a bipod and drum, as the Bundrswehr use. I don't think there's even a specific name for the configuration, but it is ''not'' called MG36. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 16:35, 30 November 2011 (CST)
::Oh okay, but would the heavy barrel look any different externally? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:11, 30 November 2011 (CST)
:::I believe it's mostly internal. However, IIRC the MG36 was rejected the same year the MIL-STD-1913 standard was drawn up, so an "MG36" with a flat-top rail would have to be a G36 or an after the fact modification of an MG36, and speculating a gun that isn't real ''must'' be modified is trying a little too hard to cover up a simple naming error. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 20:15, 30 November 2011 (CST)
::::Oh okay, well, if it had the standard carry handle I'd say it should be "MG36", but seeing as it has the "C" one, it's a G36 with a bipod, C-Mag, and G36C rail. To be fair though, MG36 is a ''lot'' easier for the sake of the game. On DICE's part I mean. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 22:10, 30 November 2011 (CST)
:::::Alex - According to G3Kurz on HKpro, the barrel OD is 30% thicker. http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-long-gun-talk/94949-wtk-mg36-barrel-question.html Evil Tim - Where did you hear that it had reinforced action? --[[User:Shadowkungfu|Shadowkungfu]] 22:44, 30 November 2011 (CST)

== "Kaffarov" ==

So, is this mission always buggy as hell, or did I just have a bad run screencapping it? As well as that weirdness with the Barrett I had guns inheriting the texture of the floor they were on top of (I have a lovely image of a linoleum QJY-88), some pictures of MP7s with their magazine against their front grip and their stock hovering in front of them at ninety degrees to the gun and every single USAS-12 in the level appearing on the ground with no magazine. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:42, 1 December 2011 (CST)

:That always seems to happen with USASs and MP7s, but please, please add the linoleum QJY-88 to the main page, just for laughs :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:21, 1 December 2011 (CST)

::Also, I really didn't get the last level. Why would you hijack a train that was already going to where you want to go (thus drawing attention to yourself for no good reason), then randomly rig it to explode even though you've already got a nuke on board? And why was one man with a detonator standing in the same room as the explosives that detonator set off? And how did Blackburn know that trigger would set off the random bombs and not the nuke? I have questions, dammit. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:54, 1 December 2011 (CST)

:::You're not an operator, you wouldn't understand. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:21, 1 December 2011 (CST)

:::This is my explanation and I know there's several holes in it but bear with me, it makes slightly more sense than just a lack of general explanation. The hijacking of the train was probably a distraction whereby once they got off their intended stop with the nuke, they would send it hurtling somewhere else for the police and other emergency services to follow. This would have then given them an opportunity to get the nuke to Times Square undetected while the emergency services scrambled to stop the train wired with explosives. In terms of the detonator, the guy was probably the patsy to serve as a suicide bomber-type to ensure the distraction seemed like the real deal and to lay blame once again on the PLR rather than Solomon. Blackburn knew that the trigger wouldn't set off the nuke because nukes require specialised arming devices if I'm not mistaken and you can't use a normal detonator to blow it up. Just my explanation of the events. Feel free to lay waste to my over-active imagination that came up with this somewhat cockamamie fill-in to explain the plotholes in the last mission. [[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 04:25, 7 December 2011 (CST)
::::The thing is the train was already ''going'' to Times Square, and detonating a nuke underground would create a sinkhole a large chunk of lower Manhattan would fall into; if anything it would be even worse than detonating it on the surface. Solomon could have just sat there alone with the thing in his lap on a timer or dead man's switch, the only purpose the hijacking ultimately served was to draw attention to the fact that something was up.

::::Then again, this story also had my very favourite, the framing device of the protagonist describing the action. I always smile when I imagine how it's going during the actual level. "So then I ducked into cover. Looked up but didn't shoot. Reloaded. Aimed down my sights. Saw a guy ducking out so I fire twice and reloaded and then..." "Weren't we supposed to be on a time limit?" "One Thousand Three Hundred Thirty Seventh Amendment." "Ah, yes, the right to defence in the form of an average-length modern video game." [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:47, 7 December 2011 (CST)

:::::Correct, the train was going to Times Square but perhaps it was not the last station? I'm not sure how the trains work in New York because I don't personally live there but it's possible that Times Square was a station on a longer line of stations where Solomon could have sent the police, ESU, FBI, Homeland Security and whatever government agencies to follow the train rigged with explosives. Creating a sinkhole does seem like a better idea but I think the purpose of blowing it in Times Square itself above ground was to send a message. The mushroom cloud that would be better seen from above ground would strike more fear, in my opinion but hey, that's just my two cents.

:::::In terms of the framing device, I have to agree with the utter ridiculousness of the idea of Blackburn describing the action he performed when recalling every single detail from the playable level but it's far more plausible than Black Ops. Thinking of how Mason could describe every single detail of his action movie experience as well as the experience of the SR-71 Blackbird pilot just made my brain stop completely. Especially when he was extremely doped up and possibly tortured judging by the bloodstains on various parts of his clothing. [[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 04:59, 7 December 2011 (CST)

::::::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca4D0-s8OsI&feature=related Believe me, an underground nuclear detonation is hard to mistake for anything else]. As for Blops, I always had the image of the guys questioning him picking up the bottle of truth serum and checking the expiry date when he started with the G11s and WA2000s. Or the whole THE NUMBERS thing just ending up with him forgetting his wife's birthday. "No! Reznov said it was tommorrow!" [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:11, 7 December 2011 (CST)

:::::::Holy wow. I know that's destructive and it's horrible to say this but that is indeed impressive. My sentiments exactly. However, they probably just went meh because they (as in the interrogators who were CIA) were probably using LSD as a truth serum as well as a mind control drug at the time. [[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 05:46, 7 December 2011 (CST)

== Question ==

I just got this game (yay! I absolutely love it, even the singleplayer) and I was gonna get screenshots but I heard I need FRAPS. What is FRAPS and how do I get it? - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:34, 1 December 2011 (CST)

:It is a program that can record gameplays and you can also take screenshots with a hotkey if it is running in the background. It has a freeware version. I think in the free version it can only save images in BMP, but u can convert them easily. Get if from here: www.fraps.com. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 00:13, 2 December 2011 (CST)

::The free version watermarks videos, not sure if it does the same with screenshots. You're best off saving in BMP since the JPEG captures are pretty abysmal quality with lots of artifacting. Give me a few days first, though, I have fifteen hundred images of the singleplayer I need to sort through. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:29, 2 December 2011 (CST)

:::I just need screenshots and I have Photoshop CS4. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:19, 2 December 2011 (CST)

::::Then yeah, http://www.fraps.com/ to download the free version. Wikipedia says it doesn't watermark screenshots even on the free version, just be sure you have plenty of HD space since a 1920x1080 BMP weighs 3-6 megabytes. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:05, 3 December 2011 (CST)

:::::596 GB. :B - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:49, 8 December 2011 (CST)

::: I currently use FRAPS myself. It does not watermark screenshots. Haven't tried getting videos yet. Anyways, the race is on to see who can put up pictures first.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 14:16, 3 December 2011 (CST)

I will be uploading a lot of great screenshots for the page tomorrow, should I add pics of the iron sights or just ones of interest? (ie, misaligned sights, the M9's correct sights, the MEU's tritium sights, etc.) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:45, 8 December 2011 (CST)

:Actually, I'm in favour of having ironsight pictures on all video game pages, since they're so often missaligned, or out of scale, as a lot of what we do here is point out flaws and educate (hopefully) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:06, 8 December 2011 (CST)

::Yay, more work. I need more weight to this. :| - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 02:22, 8 December 2011 (CST)

::Iron sights are fine as long as they're reasonably interesting and the article doesn't have too many weapons; this one should be ok. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:30, 8 December 2011 (CST)

== My God ==

I am so glad with battlefield 3 and mainly dice the are actually listening to the community and something even better they are fixing incorrect guns.

Ex:

Tweaked the AN94 so its burst fire better conveys the real world advantage offered by this weapon.

Added Single Shot to the AN94 as an available fire mode.

Slightly increased the recoil on the M416 and removed the Burst Fire mode (this weapon incorrectly had burst fire, which was not authentic).

from latest patch --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 19:13, 2 December 2011 (CST)

:Cool! =) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:19, 2 December 2011 (CST)

:Oh! But HK416 is still called M416? :\ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:13, 3 December 2011 (CST)

::Wait, really? they removed burst from the 416 and added semi to the 94? Wow, cool! Those were the only fire mode errors too :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:02, 3 December 2011 (CST)

:::Well, aside from not being able to fire the spotting rifle on the SMAW. I still think it would be amusing to be able to shoot people with your 9mm tracer that shoots like a rocket. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:16, 3 December 2011 (CST)

::::What? Oh, looked it up: "Each round consists of a special 9mm tracer bullet, crimped into a 7.62x51mm NATO casing with a .22 Hornet blank cartridge for propellant". That is the most WTF round I've ever heard of :O [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 13:41, 3 December 2011 (CST)

:::::Alex, I don't suppose you could share the link with anyone reading this page? :) -- Long Fallen 14:17, 3 December 2011 (CST)

::::::Oh right :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder-launched_Multipurpose_Assault_Weapon [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:58, 3 December 2011 (CST)

:::::::I found a more detailed look at the round here: http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo05oct.htm [[User:Nohomers48|Nohomers48]] 16:49, 3 December 2011 (CST)

::::::::I wonder if they're going to fix the "SVD" as well [[User:Santos|Santos]] 08:01, 4 December 2011 (CST)

:Is that just for PC? 'Cause I'm on the PS3 and the HK416 still has a burst mode and the AN-94 still doesn't have semi-auto as a fire mode. Or is this for the campaign? I haven't played the campaign again in a while. [[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 04:28, 7 December 2011 (CST)

::With the new patch that came out for the upcoming DLC, Back to Karkand. The AN-94 got the single-shot fire-mode and the HK416 got the burst-fire mode removed. Confirmed on the PC [[User:Santos|Santos]] 05:08, 7 December 2011 (CST)

::On the PS3 here, AN-94 still has the automatic/burst selection as before; no semiautomatic fire. The HK416 also still has semi/burst/fire selection. - Long Fallen 23:18, 9 December 2011 (CST)

:::Xbox still has the old AN 94 and M416 fire modes. Also if you use the AN 94 with iron sights and swap back and forth between your pistol, the front sight disappears on the Xbox. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 12:30, 20 December 2011 (CST)

::::That change is in the next patch we're supposed to get, it takes longer for consoles. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:54, 20 December 2011 (CST)

Any idea of when that is? I just started using the AN 94 and love the two round burst but I'm hindered at long range because of the recoil and rate of fire.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:05, 26 December 2011 (CST)

:No idea, it has to go through certification from MS/Sony and usually takes 2-3 weeks. Ish. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 23:51, 26 December 2011 (CST)

== Changing Descriptions in screenshots. ==

If you take the screenshot, go ahead and put whatever you want in there. But if you're going to edit my words, do so only if there is a typo, misspell, incorrect information or bad grammar. Seriously, if you want to put your own words so badly, put your own damn screenshots up.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 00:58, 5 December 2011 (CST)
:Your screenshot descriptions read like a filing cabinet. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:40, 5 December 2011 (CST)
Then like I said previously, put up your own damn screenshots--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 13:20, 5 December 2011 (CST)
:This is a wiki. The point of a wiki is collaborative editing. As stated in the [[Rules,_Standards_and_Principles#IMFDB_is_an_information_resource.2C_not_our_private_playground | Rules, Standards and Principles]], ''"IMFDB is an information resource, not our private playground."'' --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 13:48, 5 December 2011 (CST)
:And besides, if you take a look at the bottom of the edit window, you'll see it reads: '''If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then do not submit it here.''' So... yeah. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:12, 5 December 2011 (CST)
:If you're going to get this precious about your screenshots, then don't bother uploading them at all. While IMFDB does have a certain unwritten concept of "uploader's privilege" it does not extend to captions that sound like they were sent in Morse code and don't match the way the other captions already on the page are written and formatted. Also, lose the attitude or you'll be getting some time out. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 15:50, 5 December 2011 (CST)
::Unless the map or game mode is important to the image, which it usually is not, it should be left out. As for the rest of your captions, I have no problem with what you put, just the map/gamemode doesn't belong here. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:38, 5 December 2011 (CST)
:Fine fine. I didn't know you were an admin so don't ban me just to prove you can. Sorry if I sounded a little terse, but it is annoying having your words re-written constantly. But just one last thing, cause I noticed you mass changed my changes back to what you had, would you mind changing "the player character" to the class? Such as "The US/Russian Engineer in Multiplayer holds the A-91"? (i'll put that screenshot up in a bit)--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 21:10, 5 December 2011 (CST)
::I mainly do that because the character has no name in multi, it's much easier in single where you can do "Blackburn holds an X." "An engineer holds an X" seems a little awkward in terms of sentence structure; it feels oddly unspecific about the character holding the weapon being the one the player is controlling. I mainly make a deal of saying "the player character holds..." because it annoys me when people say "the player holds..." since the player is either holding a control pad or a mouse. Typically if the player is holding a gun something has gone very badly wrong somewhere along the line. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 01:28, 6 December 2011 (CST)

::[[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] is admin since October 2011, so keep that in mind. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:07, 6 December 2011 (CST)

:::I didn't know that, congrats! :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:17, 6 December 2011 (CST)

::I just think that it sounds better than just saying "the player character" because it is just extremely generic. That's why I usually just put "weapon with extra extra extra attatched" without putting player character, cause it's obvious there is a player character holding the weapon. And you don't want people to be holding guns in real life? Tsk Tsk. What kinda firearm wiki admin are you? And relating to that, is there a list of site Admins available? Is it in the forum? Cause I know there's at least 5 of you guys floating around here (plus Bunni, but I have never actually seen him post or discuss something in the main wiki) and it'd be nice to know who they are. --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 10:08, 7 December 2011 (CST)

:::[[Imfdb :. guns in movies :. movie guns :. the internet movie firearms database:Administrators|There you go]]. Overly long page title BTW. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:29, 7 December 2011 (CST)

As long as you don't edit my post about the PP2000 doing as much damage and throwing pebbles at someones face, that's my gem right there. :p (not like there's anything I can do about if it does get edited) [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 13:24, 10 December 2011 (CST)

:I won't change it. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 19:28, 10 December 2011 (CST)

== Knife used by Dmitri ==

Does anyone know what kind of knife was used by Dmitri in the mission "Comrades"? Its the one he uses to cut the wires in the garage to unlock the gates. It looks ... funky and not very utilitarian--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 21:06, 5 December 2011 (CST)
:It's a Spetsnaz machete. [http://www.sovietarmystuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1160] --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 21:25, 5 December 2011 (CST)
:A more in-depth look here: http://interestingswords.com/machete/russian-machete-taiga.html [[User:Nohomers48|Nohomers48]] 17:10, 8 December 2011 (CST)

== Furthering the US Army / USMC mix theory ==

IRL USMC use neither [[M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System|M26 MASS]] nor [[Heckler & Koch M320|M320 GLM]]. Army does. USMC still use [[M203 grenade launcher|M203 GL]] as UGL. As for hand-held grenade launcher... [[Milkor MGL#MGL 140|M32 MGL]]. Spammy for MP but would have worked for SP (like [[Barrett M82#Barrett M107|M107 LRSR]] did). Thoughts shared. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:40, 9 December 2011 (CST)
:Well yeah, and they also don't use the M1A2 Abrams. This seems to be in some nebulous future where the USMC has upgraded all their equipment. Also the M107 was actually pretty stupid since all you did with it was shoot some guys on the other side of a courtyard with a non-magnifying scope. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:44, 9 December 2011 (CST)

::Gotta say, upgrading equipment in the future one 'A' more doesn't seem as excessive as with entirely new one... But yeah, it's still upgrade. Like, say, giving the future US Army the USMC [[Beretta 92 pistol series#Beretta M9A1|M9A1]].
::Heh, that's the wrong mission they put M107 in. Is there any USMC mission where the long range capabilities of M107 would have served better? (Here I'm starting to think of those sniper missions in '''CoD 4''' and '''MoH''') --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:12, 9 December 2011 (CST)
:::I think the best mission to have the M107 in would have been "Rock and a Hard Place," there's a lot of range in that valley. Perhaps even let you pick off officers directing things at the rear so fewer vehicles would show up. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:38, 9 December 2011 (CST)
::::In Operation Swordbreaker I sorta hoped you'd get a chance for some M107 urban action from a sniper point, taking out PLR Insurgents from afar. I'd thought big anti-material plus big city with lots of cover, be a perfect role for an Anti-Material sniper, alas it was used against you rather than use from you. Instead you just got a Mk. 11. [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 11:14, 9 December 2011 (CST)
:::::Yeah, I was sad the M107 wasn't put to better use, it's the only time it appears in the ENTIRE game. The only I thing I didn't like in the SP. :( - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:31, 9 December 2011 (CST)

http://www.battlefield.com/images/bf3-hooah :\ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:02, 13 December 2011 (CST)

== Just some silliness ==

I didn't feel like uploading tons of screens for the page today so I'll put these up just for fun.
[[Image:BF3-Falcon Kick!.jpg|thumb|none|600px|'''Falcon Kick!''']]
[[Image:BF3-Duke Nukem.jpg|thumb|none|600px|'''Damn, those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride.''']]
[[Image:BF3-Duke Nukem-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|'''I'm gonna kick your ass, bitch!''']]
- [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:00, 10 December 2011 (CST)

:Would be cool if the kick could actually have been used as a combat move like in '''F.E.A.R.''' or '''Mirror's Edge''' (also made by EA DICE) :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:42, 11 December 2011 (CST)

:More pictures with included silliness are always welcome to me :D If we could make pictures with captions as hilarious as the ones on the Far Cry 2 page, I would always come to the BF3 page whenever I'm in a bad mood xD -- Long Fallen 22:11, 11 December 2011 (CST)

::Yeah, the Far Cry 2 page is the best page ever created! :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:46, 12 December 2011 (CST)

::Wait, how do you kick? [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 22:37, 11 December 2011 (CST)

::You can't kick, this animation only happens when your character vaults over a low lying object, like a guardrail or a rock. -- Long Fallen 22:44, 11 December 2011 (CST)

:::Dammit. I am disappoint. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 22:46, 11 December 2011 (CST)

== Current Page Status / More Images ==

It's amazed me how long the game's been out yet there's still not very many images of all the weapons :/

I've unlocked all the multiplayer weapons, but unfortunately don't have a capture card for my PS3, which I think is moot since most of the current images look like they were taken on the PC's level of detail.

As of right now I love the current format the MP7's listing is in, showing off the accessories it can mount at one time, while also showing off each part of the reload animation. It would also be nice if each listing had the weapon's simple ironsights as the first image, or vice versa.

Either way, we need to make this image complete :D A game like this doesn't deserve to have such a barren imfdb page... -- Long Fallen 22:40, 11 December 2011 (CST)

:It's because the game's too fun to take the time to do it ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:43, 12 December 2011 (CST)

== HK53 ==

Is it only on the 360 version where the HK53 is, for some reason, referred to as the G53? And for some reason it comes standard with a 12x ballistic scope. It's quite amusing, the scope is as long as the gun. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 03:12, 15 December 2011 (CST)
:It's called G53 on PC as well. [[User:Ramell|Ramell]]
::I think the 12x is a bugged accessory, that's usually only available on those weapons for DICE Employees [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 06:01, 15 December 2011 (CST)
:::HK53 on PS3, hence that screenshot. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:12, 15 December 2011 (CST)
::::I had assumed that DICE didn't get the rights to use "HK" because in the description for all other HK guns they are referred to as "made by a German weapons manufacturer". Strange that PS3 uses the "HK".--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 12:44, 18 December 2011 (CST)
:12x Ballistic Scope? Can you take a screenshot and post it here? :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:30, 15 December 2011 (CST)

::lol sorry, I don't know the first thing about taking screenshots. I'm sure someone else here could get a screenshot. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 20:30, 15 December 2011 (CST)

::All the BTK guns have the DICE-only attachments unlocked by default, that is to say, all the ones you're never supposed to get. If you want screen shots I'd get them in the next month or less as they'll probly get rid of them in the next patch. 12x Scope: FAMAS, L85A2, HK53, QBZ-95B, QBB-95, MG36. Flash Suppressor: QBU-88, L96. Suppressor: Jackhammer. Note that for the Jackhammer the suppressor doesn't appear on the model in first or third person, the stats don't change, and I'm pretty sure the sound doesn't either, so really, it doesn't exist. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 10:04, 15 December 2011 (CST)

:::DICE-only? Cheating Campers >:O
:::HK53 and QBZ-95B with ballistic scope - would be funny to see :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:33, 17 December 2011 (CST)

== "Realistic" ==

Does it annoy the hell out of anyone else when people talk about how "realistic" BF3 is, specifically compared to MW3? Yes, DICE did a much better job on the modeling and it does have a more realistic ballistics engine, but come on. Every soldier carries around an infinitely reusable parachute? People run around with defibrillators to instantly revive teammates? Somehow the Support class fits an infinite amount of ammo for every caliber in his pocket? Then, of course, every single soldier is trained to use every jet, helicopter and tank, and the jets can be used as taxis with wing mounted seating. Don't get me wrong, these are all things that add to the enjoyment of the game, and they work really well as game mechanics, but not even remotely realistic. [[User:Animalmenace|Animalmenace]] 06:22, 15 December 2011 (CST)
:They call it realistic because using the word "verisimilitude" makes people think you're trying to look clever for the sake of it. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:27, 15 December 2011 (CST)

:Yeah, some aspects of the game are unrealistic, but think about it though. Would you really want to play a game where you run out of ammo ever 5 minutes and have to run around and just wait to die or hope you knife someone to take his weapons, and then hope he too hasn't run out of ammo? Or would you want to have to go through a Gran Turismo-esque license course to be able to use every vehicle properly? While some things are clearly over-the-top, I won't argue with that, some things are obviously put in for the gameplay value, for enjoyment. IF the developers truly wanted a realistic game, they'd have the disc eject and destroy itself after you die. Though the defibrillator comment reminded me of something my friend said, "Oh, you come back to life after getting hit directly with a tank shell! Oh here, let me revive this oatmeal!" [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 20:49, 15 December 2011 (CST)

:Googling "Battlefield 3 is too realistic" and getting matching results is kinda funny. For some interesting comparisons: [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FacklerScaleOfFPSRealism Fackler Scale of FPS Realism] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:28, 15 December 2011 (CST)

::As an airsofter I find it that list really funny. Classic: All FPSs / Realistic: Airsoft :D Seriously though, what I look for when I think realism is things that work how they do in real life, how they have to work, not whether they normally are or should be used in that way. BF3 is rare in that it has the following: Tac and normal reloads all done right, one in the chamber, iron sights and optics lined up/used properly, all fire modes that should be on any weapon present, switching modes does not change the gun's stats (ie switching to semi makes gun more powerful) just the mode, damage (which can never be considered fully realistic) at a reasonable level and based on the calibre, bullet travel time and drop. Now, whether the Marines have the right weapons, vehicles, or camo, and stuff like that comes second to me, because even if they don't use a certain camo, they ''could'' as opposed to one in the chamber, which '''has''' to funtion like that. Russian soldiers don't use, say SG 553s, QJY-88s, or Jackhammers, but they could, and more importantly I can, because first and foremost in mulitplayer I'm me. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 09:58, 15 December 2011 (CST)

:::Well, things like single reload animation, no +1 round in the chamber, fixed firing mode, hitscan, etc. are usually the result of engine limitations. In this regard we can see that [http://www.moddb.com/engines/frostbite-2 Frostbite 2 Engine] is more advanced than [http://www.moddb.com/engines/frostbite Frostbite 1 Engine] (which already had bullet physics; although magcount and overheating from [http://www.moddb.com/engines/refractor-2 Refractor 2 Engine] are absent; it would have also been nice if there were interchangeable magazines). Regarding the equipment it shows how much there [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidNotDoTheResearch didn't do the research] and [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShownTheirWork shown their work]. Me wants [[Project Reality]] for BF3 :| --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:02, 17 December 2011 (CST)

:I'm not saying that it isn't realistic in some specific areas, sure it is, but it's a video game, and to compare it to COD and say BF is more realistic is kind of like comparing Star Trek to Star Wars and saying Star Trek is more realistic because they used the word "tachyon". That being said, I think all four examples I just used are very evertaining. [[User:Animalmenace|Animalmenace]] 04:56, 16 December 2011 (CST)

== Javelins are the best. ==

Javelin + CITV station on a tank = fantastic combination. The top down fire mode makes killing LAVs and Amtraks, especially on Noshair (sp?) Canals easy, not to mention the massively amusing ability to fire on laser painted aircraft. It's always hilarious to watch an FA/18 blow up and the guy flying just sees FGM-148 Javelin killed him and he wonders what just happened. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 02:22, 18 December 2011 (CST)

:Oh my, sounds like tracer darting in BC2 o_O --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:56, 18 December 2011 (CST)

::And CITV Station + MBT Guided Shells! Lock, fire, triple kill on one Little Bird! Lock, fire, quad on the other. I was 7/0 20 seconds into the game! :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 23:14, 18 December 2011 (CST)

:::It's even better against a jet. I just try to imagine the expression on a pilot's face as he wonders how the hell an Abrams just shot down his Flanker. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 22:49, 19 December 2011 (CST)

:The Javelins may be the best, however, setting up the SOFLAM is akin to setting yourself up with giant neon lights pointing "I'M RIGHT HERE!" to the enemies. I'm sure DICE had good intentions when programming it so that it wouldn't be ridiculously common and spammy, but it just sort of defeats the point of giving it to the stealthy ninja that the Recon class should be. Not to mention it gets even less useful on Wake Island with the mobile AA guns shooting the bright red light visible from just about any distance with the fury of a thousand angry Russians armed with PPSh's. :/ -- Long Fallen 22:32, 19 December 2011 (CST)

::Oh, the Tunguska, which has the ability of firing every bullet ever made at the same time?[[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 22:49, 19 December 2011 (CST)

::Haha, is there any other? -- Long Fallen 01:26, 20 December 2011 (CST)

== 9K22 Tunguska ==

I've actually just realized that while the page is mostly (half) complete, the 9K22 Tunguska's armaments haven't been added to the page; because I'd like to know exactly how much ammunition for its guns it carries and approximately for how long would it waste it all before running out, since it's a mobile AA platform? -- Long Fallen 01:36, 20 December 2011 (CST)
:Ammunition capacity is 1,904, combined rate of fire is variable between 3,900 and 5,000 rounds per minute, so if we take the lower rate of fire this works out to about 30 seconds of continuous firing. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 03:45, 20 December 2011 (CST)

::[[Image:2a38m.jpg|thumb|none|400px|2A38M Autocannon - 30x165mm]]
::Example image in case anyone feels like adding. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:36, 22 December 2011 (CST)

== Added a piece of info about the M1014 ==

It's really inaccurate for even a shotgun. I've patterned my shotgun in real life which also has a cylinder bore and the pattern was half the size of the pattern in game. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 12:46, 20 December 2011 (CST)

:This "short-range shotgun" problem is sadly common in video games, to the point which the TVTropes website has a page just for it. And Frag-12 rounds for the shotguns in this game are horribly overpowered too. I'd take a tighter pattern with a realistic damage-drop-off with distance with buckshot if they could tone down the Frag-12 rounds. For a more realistic shotgun, try playing SWAT 4. You can actually snipe somewhat well with a Benelli Nova in that game if you crouch and wait to become fully accurate.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 20:55, 21 December 2011 (CST)

:SWAT4... It's the same game that also has handgun sniping and guns that do less damage at point blank range. I was disappointed with the 1911 in that game sadly. :( I'd be careful advising anyone to play that game; its mechanics are ungodly finicky. -- Long Fallen 22:23, 21 December 2011 (CST)

::You could snipe with handguns in Battlefield 2 too... That was actually a tactic employed by experienced BF2 snipers: shoot the enemy with bolt-action sniper rifle and then immediately switch to pistol and finish him off ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:20, 22 December 2011 (CST)

:Meh, SWAT 4 isn't as finicky with its mechanics if you know what you're doing. The damage with its guns is somewhat random to reflect how bullets in real life don't always perform as expected (i.e., JHPs clog with clothing and fail to expand, 5.56mm FMJ fails to fragment once inside a target if the bullet isn't properly constructed or the barrel it's fired from is too short, etc.). though I will admit that the M1911 and other .45 ACP guns are underpowered in that game. But I think the reason as to why "handgun sniping" has persisted up until now is that modelling ballistic physics for bullets en masse was only possible when the right programming and hardware appeared. The BF2 example was probably implemented as well given the limited draw distance of the engine; without an omnipresent zoom system to represent how your eyes can focus on far-off objects (like in ARMA 2) the limitations of pixels on our monitors means that enemies become unrecognizable jumbles of pixels at distances we would still be able to clearly see them in real life. Also, because adjustable sights are hard to model in games (as opposed to scopes with ballistic drop markings), pistols often don't have ballistic drop either. I tried compensating for ballistic drop while shooting pistols in the STALKER series--because the iron sights on pistols can't be adjusted it's very difficult, since essentially the muzzle will obscure your target when you aim high to compensate.

:But the sooner we get realistic shotgun buckshot spreads and ranges in games, the better. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 14:02, 22 December 2011 (CST)

::The problem is, the zoom system only activates when you press a button. So any time you don't, the environment is presented in its distant form. This gives an edge to the person who secured a position and now zooms in in the enemy direction, while the enemy is on the move and can't see said person. In reality, they should see each other evenly. I like this absence of bionic eyes in [[Project Reality]]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:26, 23 December 2011 (CST)

:So you have to hold down the button in ARMA2 to focus on distant objects? Well, a toggle system would be much better (probably combined with using a "dynamic zoom" system that used your mouse wheel or two keys to zoom in and out so you could vary the amount of zoom much like your eyes can focus across a great deal of ranges). Still, given the pixellation problem that I mentioned earlier, all PCs in Project Reality have to carry binoculars so as to focus on distant targets, but these cannot be combined with weaponry, so if you're using a kit that has no optics for your gun and are trying to hit something that you can't really see unmagnified (even though in real life you would be able to see and hit a target at that distance), tough luck. Project Reality is also going in the process of making a version based on the ARMA2 engine as well. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 18:17, 23 December 2011 (CST)

::Adjustable Zoom would be nice. Sadly, developers haven't yet caught the idea. Even adjustable FOV is not in every modern shooter (and where it is, it might be limited).
::It works both ways in PR: you have problems seeing an enemy in the distance and an enemy has problems seeing you ;) And yes, I'm aware of PR for ArmA II. [http://www.moddb.com/mods/project-reality-arma2 It's currently v0.1], right at the starting line. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:47, 24 December 2011 (CST)

== M1014 magazine tube length ==

Can someone explain to me what's going on with the magazine tube length of the M1014 in-game? The weapon art models show the typical length, but in-game, the magazine length looks like a M3. --[[User:Baztian|Baztian]] 13:12, 27 December 2011 (CST)

The pump action shotguns in the game start with four round mag tubes. Therefore the art models depict them as such. However, when you unlock "Extended Magazines", the in world model changes to the six round tube for both the Remington and the Benelli.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 16:18, 27 December 2011 (CST)

:Didn't think of that. Thank you. --[[User:Baztian|Baztian]] 17:03, 27 December 2011 (CST)

== UMP trigger group ==

It seems the world model for the H&K UMP has safe, semi-auto, and full auto, even though the in-game weapon operates with a selectable 2-round burst.--[[User:Baztian|Baztian]] 14:53, 28 December 2011 (CST)
:If that's true than it is an error, though the UMP ''can'' have a full/2/semi/safe trigger group. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:32, 28 December 2011 (CST)

== Back To Karkand Weapons ==

So I've been playing B2K a lot, and I've gathered a bunch of trivia about some of the guns that could be added to the page, but I'm not so knowledgable about them so I thought I'd leave them here so someone who knows more can add them into the page.

The L85A2 has three round burst as well as auto and semi, which as far as I know it doesn't in real life. It also can't mount the M320 which, again as far as I know, is the grenade launcher it mounts in real life. It's also 'cocked' by pressing a bolt release just above the magwell.

The FAMAS also has burst as well as semi and auto, again I don't know if this is true in real life.

Both the QBB-95 and the QBZ-95B and burst as well as automatic and semi, but I'll admit I know nothing about these weapons. The QBZ-95B and the QBU-88 are reloaded similarly to the AN94/AEK-971 (new mag is used to push the mag release and then inserted) and it looks absolutely bizarre in first person because they're bullpup.

Also, the QBB-95 and the QBZ-95B are chambered in 5.45x39mm under the info screen rather than 5.8x42mm and the QBU-88 is chambered in 7.62x54mm under the info screen rather than 5.8x42mm.

That's all I've got [[User:Nikonov|Nikonov]] 18:17, 9 January 2012 (CST)

:The FAMAS does have all three, and a lot of the info screens are wrong or somewhat wrong, pretty sure they're just copy-pasting errors as opposed to them not knowing the calibre. Everything else you said is correct as far as I know. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 20:34, 9 January 2012 (CST)

::Well, if they are copy-pasting errors then someone should tweet Demize about it ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:10, 10 January 2012 (CST)

::The reload animation for those Chinese rifles doesn't use the magazine to push the old mag out. The character pulls out a new mag and pulls the old one out with just his fingers but has the magazine in hand to load into the gun right after. I saw a video of it with an AK once.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:49, 9 January 2012 (CST)

::I'm assuming DICE watched this video, I don't have a clue if this is what they teach in the PLA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMmaIZ8Umnk--[[User:Mattatack92|Mattatack92]] 00:40, 10 January 2012 (CST)

:IRL L85A2 mounts not [http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/m320/lg_m320_3.jpg M320] but a different variant of AG36, called [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Black_Hawk_169/DSC00005.jpg UGL]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:07, 10 January 2012 (CST)

::I just Tweeted Demize about the calibre and ROFs being sometimes wrong for the BTK guns. :) Also, he says he's not going to add the HK79 and GL1 due to memory issues, which is fair. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:16, 10 January 2012 (CST)

:::That would make a nice "GL Pack" DLC though: GL1, HK79, M203, UGL... And more, should the carbines get corresponding rifle variants :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:20, 11 January 2012 (CST)

Also interesting, the QBZ-95's ironsights glitch when you fire. Actually helps. [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 19:23, 10 January 2012 (CST)

I don't have a Twitter, could someone suggest something small on the HUD on hardcore modes that show what fire mode your gun is set to? I change it a lot and the guns with three settings make it difficult.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 19:43, 10 January 2012 (CST)

:I agree, and Tweeted :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:56, 11 January 2012 (CST)
::Would be kind of cool if in hardcore mode you could actually look down at your weapon and see the fire selector or check how many rounds are in the magazine. If you think having no HUD is "hardcore," just imagine having to actually worry about taking your eyes off the battleground long enough to check on your weapon like that. [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:14, 22 January 2012 (CST)

== Pancor Jackhammer ==

Why? Not only is this weapon relatively pointless since they included the USAS-12 (it seems to recoil less and that's about it) but it comes with a freaking suppressor. Of all the useless devices you can equip to a weapon as insanely loud as the Jackhammer theoretically would be, this and an under-barrel can opener would just about top the list. (I presume they put it on there because the revolving magazine system of the Jackhammer has some similarities to that of a Nagant M1895.) Also, why in the hell is the freaking thing even in the game? There's supposedly a grand total of two of the dumb things in existence. If we're going to throw in an automatic shotgun prototype that never made it into production, how about the H&K CAWS? That one was actually tested by the US military. In another world, it could have been adopted. Or, hell, the Atchisson AA-12. Don't get me wrong, the Jackhammer is a cool looking gun, but it never made it off the design bench and I'm a ''little'' tired of seeing it crop up in video games claiming at least some level of real world veracity (the world "realistic" is a silly one to use for FPS games). [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:24, 22 January 2012 (CST)
:It's supposed to be for the nostalgia, I guess, since it was an unlockable in BF2. Much like them keeping that "DAO-12" name for the Protecta, though it's now a Street Sweeper. There were actually quite a few Jackhammer prototypes, but only two that fired fullauto. Or rather didn't, which is why there were only two. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:38, 22 January 2012 (CST)

:They will put XM8 as military tested weapon, methinks. CAWS was pretty cool gun in [[Jagged Alliance 2]] :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:52, 22 January 2012 (CST)

::As stated, it's in because it was in BF2, that's the point of the Back To Karkand pack. Also, it doesn't actually have a suppressor. Well, it does, but it's invisible and does not change any stats whatsoever, not even making you not appear on the minimap. So, there's just a pretend option for a suppressor. Why? Same reason the two ARs, two Carbines, and two MGs have 12x scopes, and the two Sniper Rifles have Flash Suppressors: it was an oversight, those are the attachments you're supposed to ''never'' get those attachments, only DICE gets them, because they're silly. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:10, 22 January 2012 (CST)

Well the suppressor actually does do something, it cuts damage down. I actually like the Pancor though, with frag rounds, ext mags, and a Holo sight I can clear out most hallways on metro. But, that is pretty much the only map it is of any use on.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 16:47, 22 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Glock pistol series

2012-01-21T16:03:14Z

Ranger01: /* Naming of glocks */

2 Glocks (.45?) play prominet roles in the movie "Fracture" starring Anthony Hopkins. Don't know the model so I didn't edit the main page ([[Special:Contributions/80.121.38.199|80.121.38.199]] 18:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC))

__TOC__ 

==Other Glock Variations==
===Screen-Used===
[[Image:IMFDB P00261 Sopranos Tony Soprano Glock 19.jpg|thumb|none|350px|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen used Glock 19 - 9x19mm. This blank firing weapon is verified as screen used by actor [[James Gandolfini]] in '''[[The Sopranos]]'''. More detailed images and purchasing information on this item can be found at [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet]; see [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=6ef04a13fbe759cbdcbdc6bc4c4b809f&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=P00261&Store_Code=TGC&search=Sopranos+Glock&offset=0&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high= here].]]
[[Image:P00650 Glock Full Left.jpg|thumb|350px|none|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen used Glock 19 - 9x19mm. This non-firing prop weapon is verified as screen used from the film '''[[The Other Guys]]''', and was carried by [[Will Ferrell]] in the film. The gun is accompanied by the Galco belt holster also used in numerous scenes throughout the film.]]
[[Image:P00613.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Screen used Glock 19 - 9x19mm. This blank firing weapon is verified as screen used from the film ''[[Salt]]''. The gun has been modified to fire blank rounds only. This item is currently being sold by [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet]; see [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=6ef04a13fbe759cbdcbdc6bc4c4b809f&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=P00613&Store_Code=TGC&search=Salt&offset=0&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high= this link].]]
[[Image:MattDUlt.jpg|thumb|350px|none|The actual screen-used 3rd generation Glock 17 - 9mm from ''[[The Bourne Ultimatum]]''. This weapon was actually handled and fired by [[Matt Damon]]. Note the damage on the rail.]]

===Other Images===
[[File:Glock17ext.jpg|thumb|none|300px|Glock 17 with 33 round magazine.]]
[[File:Glock17stainless ext.jpg|thumb|none|300px|Glock 17 fitted with stainless slide and 33 round magazine.]]
[[Image:Glock_12892-1-.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 OD Green - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:Evolution.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Suppressed Glock 17 - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:BruniGAP-178mm.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Bruni GAP Glock 17 blank firing stage prop - 8mm blank]]
[[Image:Glock17RAM4.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 RAM - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:CAA.Tactical-RONI-G1.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 - 9x19mm mounted in a CAA Tactical RONI-G1.]]
[[Image:Pistol Austrian Glock 18 with 31 round magazine.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Glock 18C with a 19 and 31 round magazine - 9x19mm]]
[[Image:Glock22left.jpg|thumb|350px|none|Glock 22 (2nd Generation) left side - .40 S&W.]]
[[Image:G17-1x400.JPG|thumb|none|350px|Glock 17 3rd Generation with SureFire x400 attachment and extended 19-round magazine - 9x19mm. Similar to the gun used by [[Shemar Moore]] in ''[[Criminal Minds]]'']]
[[File:Saliant Arms glock 34.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Salient Arms International Glock 34 - 9x19mm]]

== Longslide versions get their own Glock Model Numbers? ==

It seems kind of odd to me as to why variations of Glock pistols available with longer barrels have their own unique model numbers. Many gun websites I've been to don't seem to list such customizations with their own unique model numbers (except maybe in inventory listings or the like), but rather just mention that a particular model of pistol has a longer barrel version available. Is such a practice just for convenient reference? To satisfy customer preferences? Or for some other reason?

By the way, I appreciate all the hard work the people here have done in identifying the various Glock pistols used in the media on this site. I'd find it pretty hard myself, since barring obvious visual differences like how to tell a full-size Glock from a subcompact one apart, I wouldn't be able to tell a G17 from a G22 without seeing the number on the slide in a movie, for instance, since they look substantially the same. Something like trying to tell a G22 from a G20 would also be quite difficult without hearing a character in a movie say its caliber out aloud or seeing the number on the slide, since they are chambered for similarly-sized cartridges. I don't think its entry on the date of this comment is correct--the real-life US Marshals use Glocks chambered for .40 S&W, not 10mm Auto.

About the only exception to the aforementioned practice on Glock's end is the Glock 20, which apparently now has a factory-made longslide version (not the aftermarket ones), but to my knowledge does not have a unique Glock model number. Can someone fill me in on this? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 06:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

== The "Glock invisible"-nonsense ==

Here's what [[Hugh Laurie]] (yes, the "House M. D."-guy) had to say about that in his novel "The gun seller":
"You may have read, at one time or another, some of the nonsense that’s been written about the Glock. The fact that its body is made from a fancy polymer material got one or two journalists very excited a while back about the possibility that the gun might not register on airport X-ray machines - which happens to be so much hooey. The slide, barrel, and a fair portion of its innards are metal, and if that weren’t enough, seventeen rounds of Parabellum ammunition are pretty hard to pass off as lipstick refills. What it does have is a high magazine capacity for a low weight, great accuracy, and virtually unequalled reliability. All of which have made the Glock 17 the choice of housewives everywhere."
Dr. House, I couldn't agree more.
--[[User:Lastgunslinger|Lastgunslinger]] 22:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to admit that my whole perspective of Glock changed when they sued Smith & Wesson over the Sigma. I mean, they make more money from their handguns than any other company in the world and then they go and sue someone. The Glocks design is so simple it resembles every handgun, you might as well sue them all. I see the similarities but they are easily telled apart. Not a cool thing to do Glock, I wish you hadn't stooped down like that.

== 'Resembles Every Handgun' ==

"The Glocks design is so simple it resembles every handgun, you might as well sue them all."

It only resembles every handgun, because almost every brand has a Glock copy now. There wasn't anything like it back in 1982 when it was released. Back then its main competitors were the 1911, S&W 39, Berreta 92 and various wheel guns. Gunner313
Not to mention that S&W didn't just copy the Glock design they cloned it with parts that would fit into a Glock body, with potentially disastrous consequences.

A copy is a near exact of something. The S&W Sigma is the only Glock copy. The rest are just polymer pistols.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 18:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I think he mans that is so genaric and non-descript in apperance that it has gained the status of being the genaric
icon for "pistol" among the populous, especially laymans.
An example being that I asked my parents (who know nothing of guns) to draw their interpretation of a pistol, what they drew was inescapeably a glock-like design.
I think this is because its basically just a rectangular prism with a very simple handguard on it, also its common use by police give it a good possition in the public eye even for those who avoid movies and other media for whatever reason.
Compaired to other self loading pistols the only competition I can see it having is the Beretta 92 serise of guns, also yes I think your point is very valad - other companies making sudo-glocks means that their image is even more common and that the layman will associate the image of a glock less with glocks and more with the term "pistol".
- annon

==Durability==
:Does anyone else find it ironic that Glock's are nigh indestructible but feel really fragile?-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 23:05, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
The Glocks I've fired, for the most part, don't feel extremely fragile. Sure, they don't have that 'all metal heft' that some other handguns have, which makes them lighter, and conceivably more fragile feeling, but none of mine have never felt like they would shatter if I dropped them. I might be misunderstanding what you mean, though. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 21:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
:It just about takes a nuclear blast to destroy one, but at the same time it feels like I could cruch it with my bare hands-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 20:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I've never noticed them feeling fragille, but that could be because I can't get over how friggin' UNCOMFORTABLE they are to hold. I'm not trying bash glocks here, they just don't fit my hand. At all.--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 00:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Catastrophic Failure ==
The Portland, Oregon police department stopped offering the .45 Glock 21 as an option for Officers to carry on duty after two incidents in which the weapons exploded in the hands of the range master during testing. Afterwards reports came in from across the country of similar incidents with the Glock 21. Do all Glocks chambered for powerful cartridges (.45, 10mm) have this problem or is it just the Glock 21? Furthermore do all Glock 21s have this issue or were these just a few rare accidents? I don't particularly like Glock pistols but never considered them dangerous (at least to the user) before hearing about these incidents.
-[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

Hmm. Given the problems that PPB has given Glock in the past (back in the early nineties they commented that "PBB is one of those customers we can't seem to ever make happy") I'm not surprised they blame the company rather than themselves. They also refused to fly to Smyrna to allow Glock to examine one of the pistols; they also refused to allow Glock to remove even one of the allegedly defective pistols for lab tests. The PPB also failed to submit either of the pistols for independent testing, despite stating that it would.

If there was a design flaw it would have shown up '''long''' before now. Glock has ~65% of the US LEA market, mostly in .40 and while the "Short and Weak" isn't nearly as powerful as 10mm Auto, it's generally loaded to higher pressures than .45 ACP

I've used the G20 and G29 (both chambered for the far more powerful 10mm Auto round) for years and haven't had a gun explode or do anything worse that FTE when used with poor ammunition. A few years back we torture tested one with 15,000rds in a single day, it didn't explode.

It's not just .45 and 10mm. I've personally seen a glock 17 explode with factory ammo. Not a pretty sight. --[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 00:55, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

== Portland Police and its standards ==

The Portland Police Bureau is a strange department. I've known experienced officers who have tried to get on with the PPB only to be told that they didn't meet Portland's criteria. In a couple cases they were experienced Oregon certified officers from neighboring cities. One of them spent a year in Kosovo with the U.N. civil police training task force. It's a strange city with an odd police administration. I've known a few good cops who work for Portland, but overall I'm glad that I never applied with the PPB.Ultimately I believe the politics of that part of Oregon would have driven me crazy.Very very LEFT WING. --[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 15:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

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It's only certain Glock models that do it. I've noticed it a lot on the .40 S&W models such as the 22 or 23. The problem is that in order to increase more reliable feeding as well as to make the gun cycle more reliably, Glocks have more of their chambers cut away, which leaves parts of the case unsupported. They count on the casing to hold in the powder load. I think it happens mostly on the larger cartridges such as 10mm Auto, .40 S&W or .45ACP. Haven't heard of it happening on any of the .45GAP models though. I'm personally not a big fan of Glock pistols. I don't find them very visually appealing and I hate the lack of a manual safety. And I really, really dislike the trigger they make on it. They need to take off the little lever in the trigger, and just go to a solid double action trigger and put a manual safety on it. I'm a 1911 man, but I think there are many other designs that are better than Glock's. For example, Sig Sauer or H&K. Or Springfield's XD series. S&W Sigma. I mean the list goes on and on. I won't buy a Glock for the reasons I mentioned above. Right now, all I own are 1911s and one H&K USP .45.

:I'm a bit confused. You say that you do not like Glock pistols because you find them unattractive and you prefer a manual safety, both of which are valid reasons. But then you claim that designs from SIG Sauer, H&K USP, the Springfield XD, and the S&W Sigma -- all of which, save for a few specialty models, do not have a manual safety -- are superior to the Glock design. That just doesn't make sense. It's perfectly fine to dislike Glock pistols, but to claim that they are inferior to other designs for lacking a manual safety, when those very other designs also lack manual safeties, is rather odd. [[Special:Contributions/68.39.83.179|68.39.83.179]] 22:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

::I've only had hands-on experience with the Glock 21 myself. Me and my sister shot one on my birthday this year, and she had the Glock malfunction on her too, albeit not nearly as severely as the incidents mentioned above. She pulled the trigger and the weapon failed to discharge. When I cleared the chamber, I found that the pin had missed the primer and struck the back of the casing. After that though we didn't have any further problems with the weapon, that being the only round out of 50 we put through the Glock 21 that had a misfire. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 03:19, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure on the Sigma, but the XD has a grip safety, and most sigs have de-cockers. I don't know if those meets your definition of 'manual safety', but they're certainly more than glock has.--[[User:TheDon|TheDon]] 15:40, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Glock 18==
what would a fully automatic pistol be used for? VIPs protection and CQC
There was a fad for such machine pistols (VP-70 and M-93R for other examples).

But the Personal defense weapon have taken this firearm nitch and more. Rex095

Sort of like lasers when they first came out.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

what do you mean? about the lasers

Lasers were thought to be the end-all substitute for irons yet now they are just seen as a gimmick.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 18:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not really a gimmick today. People still use lasers to aim, distract someone by aiming at their eyes and for small frame guns where the iron sights are bad, like a pocket gun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 14:57, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

== Generation 4 Glocks ==

I realized that the page is laking the Gen 4 Glock 17 and Gen 4 Glock 22 --[[User:Yocapo32|Yocapo32]] 17:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Added the Gen 4 model for Glock 22--[[User:SB2296|SB2296]] 17:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

:The picture you posted is not a 4th Generation Glock; it is an RTF (Rough Texture Frame) model, which is not the same thing. The main difference between the 4th Gen Glocks and older models is that they now have removable backstraps. And anyway, we don't need the picture until we know they've appeared in movies (and at the rate armorers buy new pistols, no time soon.) IMFDB's policy is that we don't need a picture of every variant of a gun that has ever existed (at least not on the gun's page), and ''especially'' if it hasn't appeared in anything yet. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Well that and the fact that the 4th Generation also has a captive recoil spring, but of course how in the hell do you show that? Shot a 4th Gen G17 today at the range. Very nice. Recovery is all that much faster. I was impressed. The company will be coming out with the 4th Gen G19 in a month or so. However the 4th Gen G21SF isn't due out until next year. Sorry 45 acp mafia. I was talking to one of the corporate guys so I feel confident that he knows what he's talking about. Anyway just some nice to know trivia.--[[User:Jcordell|Jcordell]] 05:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

== Glock 34 ==

Just looking at the section for the [[Glock 34]], only [[End of Days]] and [[Man on Fire]]. In both movies, It's used by the Main Character to attempt suicide. That's gonna be a good ad campaign: "''When You Can't Go On Anymore, Reach For Your Glock 34''"

==1st Generation==
Did the first generation of Glock pistols feature anything other than the Glock 17? I've seen second and third generation versions of nearly every model, but the only first generation pistols I've ever seen are Glock 17s. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

A small number of first generation Glock 19's were made. - [[User:Right Wing Gun Nut|Right Wing Gun Nut]]

It should have only been in the glock 17...and you shouldn't see one easily because they didn't meet ATF regulation until the generation 2.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 22:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

What reg did they not meet?--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 18:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

:1st Gen Glock 19s do exist, but they're very rare, because Glock went to the checkered front/backstraps on all of its pistols shortly after production began. Also, the Glock 17L and Glock 18 both exist in 1st generation incarnations (though they're also pretty rare). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 19:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

::So there were other 1st generation models than the 17, but were all 1st generation guns 9mms? -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

To meet American ATF regulations, a steel plate with a stamped serial number was embedded into the dust cover in front of the trigger guard for generation 2. I have seen no evidence of a first generation glock being in any other model than the 17. Even the people that claim they have a generation 1 glock 19 still only show pictures of a generation 2...so i would need to see proof on anything other model being in generation 1. but my knowledge is limited to what's available in the normal U.S.A. for some glock models are not legal to have in the states.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

:Gen 1 Glock 19s do exist. Check out [http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=887305 this topic] from GlockTalk. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 15:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

==Other models==
Why were the models that were removed before put back? I thought IMFDB didn't allow sections for variants of a gun that haven't appeared in any media. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]
::See Stan's post below, and also the Glock 20 that was deleted actually WAS in something. When we went to link it, surprise, it wasn't there because it had been removed. Not a good thing. Any SERIES of guns, do not remove the interim gun series entries ever. They are there for continuity in the SERIES of models. The only guns we remove are the weird single gun entries that some member jacked off of google and won't appear in a movie, etc. ever, and if they do, only then do we create the page. The only exception is guns that are in active armorer inventory NOW. That means that there is a much HIGHER chance of them being seen, and we need the gun pics to help members positively ID them. Hope this helps. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 18:51, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:::When the Glock variants were initially deleted I mentioned that having gaps in the list of different models seemed odd, yet those who deleted them responded that any weapons or variants of weapons that have not appeared in media are subject to deletion. I like that the different variants have been restored to the list, I was just curious as to what the procedure was for guns that are variants of weapons that have appeared in films though that specific variant had not since I had heard conflicting information. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]
::::- Yeah, that was me. I found it irksome to have several models (mainly new ones), that weren't listed or even linked to anything, it was annoying to me. I still think that in regards to the newest 30 model guns, but that's just me. BUT, as MPM said, they are still standard guns of the same series, and many are in inventory, so they'll be used in something eventually (If indeed they haven't already and we just don't have pages, etc). I think the main problem was getting rid of older guns like the 20 that are ''definitely'' in stuff already and should be there accordingly. A couple of the other guns are also linked to pages but just don't have them listed - I'll go ahead and add the listing(s) myself if they're listed on complete pages and/or positively ID'd. Otherwise, you could just say they're being proactive. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

-Original Reply- 
I replaced the sections I previously deleted by request of MoviePropMaster2008. Essentially they are for reference right now. However, there are also a sort of placeholder as well - MPM has stated on other pages that such guns are in movie inventory, so eventually they'll get listings/entries - As such, the sections are to remain so that they don't have to be re-created later. A couple of the guns are already linked on pages I believe, but the pages may not be complete or they may not be listed for some other reason. I did remove them because at the time they weren't featured in anything, but it really wasn't my call to remove them in the first place. (EDIT - removed MPM's paraphrased personal message to me, as he posted himself). [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 05:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

::I should point that I am highly skeptical of some of the Glocks IDs that are supposedly [[Glock 20]]s. The episode of ''[[Psych]]'' in which [[John Cena]] supposedly uses a Glock 20 is wrong; I've seen that episode, and he uses a Glock 17L. I'm equally doubtful that the Glock 20 appears in Season 4 of ''[[24]]''. Since we know that (as a rule) movie armorers rarely use any Glocks that aren't 9x19mm, I can't help but wonder if people are going to be tempted to mis-identify Glocks if they see these other variants on the page. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 20:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Fair enough, and I'm not defending some of these questionable attributions, but I had to replace a pic for a VIDEO game where the gun was a specific variant of weapon (and was specifically NAMED in the game as an off caliber variant), so we still needed the section. Also foreign helmed films don't have the ammo biases that we in the States do ;) the sheer CHANCE that folks will mis-identify the gun is not reason enough to NOT have the section. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 20:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

:::- Well, in the case of those shows, I'll remove the TV subsection until they're confirmed. I will put in the VG entries, though, as they aren't questionable. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

::::Whoa whoa whoa STOP!!!!! Don't remove ANYTHING!!! IMFDB users should look long and hard and try to correctly ID guns, but for now just creating a BLANK space is unacceptable. What is WITH this rush to delete everything all of a sudden? If you don't have correct info to replace it with, DON'T DELETE IT! YOu can put a disclaimer on the various discussion pages (that there may be a question as to whether or not the gun ID is correct), but I dont' want to start seeing blocks of empty space. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 21:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

::- Uh, wait a minute, the only thing I removed was the TV section for the Glock 20, and that's it. Nothing else. Most of the gun sections I replaced from the other day were '''already blank''' - they didn't have anything before. Again, the TV listing subsection for the Glock 20 section was the '''only''' thing I've removed since I put all the other guns back, and I've since already restored it. Outside of that and adding some subsections to a couple of the guns, I haven't touched the rest of the page. Not trying to give ya a headache MPM, but I really haven't done that much this time, honest. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 23:45, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Sorry, I was just reeling from the previous Glock debacle where I spent an entire morning rephotographing a Glock variant, only to realize later that it had been previously there, but deleted. My brain is still traumatized ;) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 00:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
::- Yeah, I still feel real bad about that.. I'll probably never live that down. Bah. ;b [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

==First appearance==
I remember one of our movie pages pointing out that that film was the first appearance of a Glock Pistol in a movie. Does anyone know which movie that was because I can't remember.

: Don't know. The earliest-set movie page I can immediately spot a Glock (Glock 17) on is [[To Live and Die in L.A.]] (1985), but I'm not certain if that is it. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 04:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

That's not it. We have a page of a movie from the early 80s where the page explicitly states that this is the first appearance of a Glock in film.

:
::I'm pretty skeptical that ''[[To Live and Die in L.A.]]'' features a Glock, because they were not being imported to this country for the civilian market at the time the movie was filmed. Though I guess I'd have to see the movie to be sure. Season 3 of ''[[Miami Vice - Season 3|Miami Vice]]'' featured a Glock 17 in one episode (which was used by [[Don Johnson]]), and that's the earliest documented appearance of a Glock that we have on this site so far besides ''To Live and Die in L.A.''.

::''We have a page of a movie from the early 80s where the page explicitly states that this is the first appearance of a Glock in film.''

::Which page? I just checked all of the pages which feature our 1st gen Glock 17 picture, and didn't see any movies from the early-80s. Also, I'm skeptical because the first Glock 17s available to civilians didn't start coming into the U.S. until 1985, so it's pretty much impossible for any movie/TV show filmed before that to feature a Glock (unless it was filmed in Europe or some other country where Glocks were available sooner). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 13:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::- Not to increase the load, but it might be worth checking under the second gen picture also. After all, not pages pages use the accurate gun picture, whether because they didn't know about the specific differences/generation release dates when they made the page or because the Gen 1 picture wasn't actually around and no one updated the thumbnail. Just a thought. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 16:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::I have tried watching To Live and Die in L.A. and get a better cap, it just looks like a black gun to me. [[Johnny Handsome]] featured a Glock, it was released in '89. There's got to be a film before that. That Miami Vice episode aired Jan '87. Good idea about checking the 2nd gen pic. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 16:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

::::Point taken on the 2nd Gen G17 pic, I forgot about that. But I don't envy the person who has to sort through all the pages on which it appears (nearly 250 in total, last I looked). But I can still tell y'all that you're highly unlikely to see a Glock in any movie made before 1985, for the reason I mentioned earlier. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:: That's not even counting those that ''don't'' have a gun image, or.. well, you get the point. Bah. I'm afraid we may not find out what page it is, unless Anon's memory gets better. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 22:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

:::I just checked all of the page links for all three Glock 17 images. So far, I can't find any movies or TV shows other than the ones mentioned previously that have featured Glocks. Of course, there is still the possibility that somebody forgot to put ''any'' image for some movie that featured a Glock, but I imagine we'd have caught that by now.

:::So, I have reached the following conclusion:

:::*Season 3 of ''[[Miami Vice - Season 3|Miami Vice]]'' is the first media appearance of a Glock 17, movie or TV.
:::*''[[Johnny Handsome]]'' is the first known movie to feature a Glock 17.

:::Unless someone finds any earlier appearances (and has the screencaps to prove it), these are the first media appearances of Glocks. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

: Well, it's a page done by Pred, and the section says 'one of the earliest appearances of a Glock', so that's probably what Anonymous was talking about. If not, then we need to kill him for even bringing this up. :b [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 00:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that is the page I was talking about, I just couldn't remember it. Please don't kill me. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]
::: Sure, but only because you said please. Mystery solved then? [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 15:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

::Wow look at that, I don't even like Glocks. I don't know if either of you two have seen Johnny Handsome. The gun dealer gave a little explanation about the gun, made in Austria, plastic etc. I just glad it beat Die Hard 2. When I wrote the comment I figured another film had to have featured it before JH that's why I said one of the earliest uses not the first. Unless another comes up with an appearance before JH, [[Mickey Rourke]] has both the first usage of the Desert Eagle and Glock in a film.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 01:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Alright I changed both the pages. If someone has better wording to use, go for it. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 01:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

== Removal of Variants that have not been seen in media ==

I was just re-reading the [[Rules, Standards and Principles]] page and was wondering if anyone has a problem removing the Glock models 24, 28, 29, and 37 - 39 as they have yet to appear in any movies/anime/games. It looks like alot of effort was put into this page so I just want check before making any changes.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 06:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
::'''Good thing you asked, since I would have been pretty pissed at you if you made such a major change without checking first.''' We've had this come up before. A previous member took it upon himself to remove a Glock variant which has not listed, and then, BEHOLD! it was obviously apparent in some movie or tv listing, so ANOTHER member, seeing that we didn't have the section (it had been deleted) copied a jacked GOOGLE image of the gun and re-created the section. I, seeing a CRAP google image thought "hmmm, I could have sworn I photographed that type of Glock for this page already", so I spent the entire morning rephotographing that model of Glock for the Glock page. When I tried to re-upload the photo, IMFDB warned me that this photo already existed. I was "WTF?" By tracking down the history of the page, I tracked down the member who DELETED the glock section and admonished them that it was just creating problems, since a few days AFTER he deleted it, the model appeared in something. So the rule is: DON'T REMOVE ANY VARIANTS on ANY PAGE, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE MPM MOVIE ARMORY PHOTOGRAPHS (which were done specifically FOR IMFDB). Thanks for your attention in this matter :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
:I would leave it, Glocks are hard to tell apart sometimes. So it's good to have all the models on the page for reference. It's not like a user creating an entire new page for a gun that hasn't appeared.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 06:26, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

:::Damn propmaster no need to yell man. There's a reason I asked in here first. Maybe you should add the blurb about not removing variants pictured by armorers in the rules section. That's the only reason I brought up the question in the first place.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 06:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
::::It's not yelling, it's emphasizing. And sorry if it seemed that way. As for the emphasis, it was for all members. You at least asked, but I must emphasize again, if any member MUST do something, try adding to lame pages, resist the temptation to delete other people's work. Leave that to the mods, unless its something ridiculous. MPM

== Numbers ==
Anyone know how Glock comes up with the numbers for their handguns?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 21:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

They are in the order that they were released...starting with the model 17 for it was the 17th patient to get it what it is today. But some people say that the original name came because it holds 17rds then in the order they were released--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 22:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

:Another theory is, if Wikipedia is to be believed, that the Austrian army set out a list of 17 requirements when they were looking for a new pistol to replace the Walther P38. In order for any pistol to be considered for the trials, it had to pass all 17 requirements. The Glock was called the 17 because it was designed specifically with thes standards in mind. Even if this isn't the source of the name, it's still an amusing coincidence. -[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

== Glock 30 & Glock 36 ==

Can someone explain the Difference between the Glock 30 and Glock 36. They both look like Sub-Compact Glocks in 45. ACP. [[Image:Glock30.jpg|thumb|200px|none|Glock 30 .45 ACP]][[Image:Glock36.jpg|thumb|200px|none|Glock 36 .45 ACP]]
:Glock 36 is a single stack, Glock 30 is a double stack. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 03:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
:Not to mention the Glock 36, while subcompact like the 30, also sports a slimline frame, just 1.13 inches wide and roughly six inches long.--[[User:LordOfTheLocusts|LordOfTheLocusts]] 13:50, 18 December 2011 (CST)

== 18 vs 18C? ==

Just wondering, is there any difference between the Glock 18 and Glock 18C? I think the proper name is 18C, but correct me if I'm wrong.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 13:26, 14 June 2011 (CDT)
:The C models include a built-in compensator, noted by a rectangular slot cut out in the top-front section of the slide and the compensator ports in the barrel. And yes, 18C is the correct name. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:18, 14 June 2011 (CDT)

== Full Auto? ==

Can other Glock pistols be converted to fire in full-auto, like the Glock 17-impersonating-Glock 18? Specifically, the 19 and 21 models? [[User:MrOshimida27|MrOshimida27]] 18:21, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

:Probably yes. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:46, 17 October 2011 (CDT)
::I've seen FA conversions of the Glock 19, 20, 22, and 26. Also shot a FA conversion 17. Fun weapons but not quite as reliable as a factory conversion IMO. Then again the 17 had been shot all day.[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 02:35, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

== Glocks in shooters ==

hey yall i was just wondering if you knew if their were any FPS games that included a normal glock. when i say normal i mean all minus the 18, it is a ridiculous gun and has very little practical use. my preference is the Glock 21 but i would like to no if there is any notable games that have any model (minus 18) thanks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 20:37, 17 October 2011 (CDT)
:Did you even try looking in the listings on the page? Because I see several listed there.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 21:31, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

::And the Glock 18 is not a ridiculous weapon and ''is'' practical if you know how to use it right (especially the "C" model). - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 21:44, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

== .380 ACP Glocks ==

Hey all. I edited the Glock 25 and 28 sections to say:

*The Glock 28/25 will very likely never be seen in an American produced film because it is illegal to import in the United States. Since that the ATF ruled it as having no sporting purpose, the only way it will be featured in a film is if the movie is completely produced in a foreign country that has maximum caliber restrictions.

These guns have a less than .01% chance of being seen in films. Just giving a heads up --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 08:04, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, or if the ATF changes the rules (I know, yeah right, but it's not impossible), or if it's an Airsoft gun or mock-up, or it's stock footage, or a dozen other ways you could probably think up. Try to avoid attempting to predict the future on a gun page. Also, "completely produced?" Haven't you ever heard of "on location?" [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:28, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

*Airsoft doesn't make Glock 25/28's, on top of the fact that it's now illegal to produce Glock mock ups now because Glock sued for patent infringement a year or two back. This includes the S&W Sigma series (Glock clones), Airsoft guns, and blank guns. Even if the gun could be used, do you know how hard it is to make a straight blowback gun fire blanks? It just isn't worth the effort. The ATF will not change the rules unless the supreme court miraculously changes the law, which is next to 0% unless people start voting with their brains. Lastly, "on location" filming still has American owned guns used, therefore those Glocks will not be seen. Trust me man, it ain't happening.

PS. I saw your edit on the Glock 25. The Glock 25 can't be imported no matter what. Law enforcement or not, they CAN'T. Also, Brazil has a maximum energy ban (nothing bigger than .380 for handguns,) not a "military caliber" ban. I'm going to fix those parts. --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 09:30, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

:On location filming doesn't necessarily have American guns used. ''Rambo III'', for example, was American-produced but filmed partly in Israel and used stocks of weapons that would be impossible to get in the US, such as real DShK machine guns. The same arrangement (location filming with a local armourer) would make it far from impossible for these weapons to appear in a US-produced movie. Also, I'm fairly sure you're wrong. Here's the section of the relevant law:

:"If importing NFA and non-sporting weapons, please ensure an official government contract, purchase order, or letter typed on official law enforcement and/or government letterhead, bearing the original signature of the chief law enforcement official having jurisdiction over that area, is attached to the completed Form 6."

:The 25 is a "non-sporting weapon" because it fails the import test, but that doesn't stop a government or law enforcement ''agency'' buying it. It does mean ''individual'' officers can't import them, though.

:Also, IIRC didn't Glock do something weird like trademark the shape of their weapons rather than sue for patents? I think H&K did the same with the MP5 at about the same time. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 10:45, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Pretty much. They sued because the imitations were substantially identical to the iconic Glock shape. Just so you know, the Glock company is a bunch of jerks.

When it comes to using other country's armorers/weapons, it usually doesn't happen. Rambo can be the exception, but 99.99% of the time it's cheaper to mock up existing weapons and use your own armorer than to go out of the way for the real deal when usually no one will know the difference.

Also, that ATF letter is only true in name only. Regardless of signatures or agency, the request to import still has to be approved by the ATF, which it NEVER is. Look around. There are no post '86 machine guns or "non sporting" weapons used by ANY LE agency in the US (not talking about the ARMY/NAVY/Etc.) because the letters are NEVER approved. There's a couple A1 M16's with A2 uppers and MP5's with a pre '86 trigger group in use, but that's about it for LE agencies special guns usage, and all of those are pre '86 weapons.--[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 11:35, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, and a LE agency isn't going to be jumping through hoops to buy a .380 ACP pistol anyway, but it's enough to say that only LE and government could even ''theoretically'' import them according to the law for purposes of the page; it's ''not'' true to say they can't legally be imported when the law says they can be. I do agree with you that it's stunningly unlikely for a number of reasons, I just dislike terms like "impossible" being thrown around because I'm horribly pedantic. :) [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:40, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Agreed. Especially when they can pick up a just-as-good Beretta 84 without the blinking of an eye. I noticed you live in England. Here in America, there are a couple laws which supposedly make certain things allowable with the right approval, however approval never comes and those permits are deemed impossible to obtain.

Some states allow the carrying of a handgun at 18 years old, but Sheriffs won't sign off on it, well just because. In New Jersey, you are allowed to carry a handgun, but to get the permit you need a "justifiable cause," and it happens that the only justifiable one they see is carrying more than $500,000 a day for work. Apparently my self defense isn't important enough to them. It's the same with the ATF. They don't like it, you can't have it. Unfortunately it isn't constitutional, but the judges here don't quite have the guts to end their illegal rule right now. Thanks for reading my rant ;) --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 11:52, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, everywhere has laws that technically exist but aren't enforced properly. Though ours mostly tend to have more to do with extremely precise ways for it to be legal to murder the Welsh. :P [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:56, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

Bingo. Nice job with the edit too by the way --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 12:51, 2 November 2011 (CDT)

== Glock 18 selector switch ==

Is the slide mounted selector switch on the Glock 18 on both sides of the slide or just the left side? --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 14:34, 8 January 2012 (CST)
:Left side only --[[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:56, 8 January 2012 (CST)
::Well that complicates things. Thanks. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 15:08, 8 January 2012 (CST)

== Naming of glocks ==

Does anyone know the story behind the naming of the Glocks? Why did they start with 17? --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 21:26, 20 January 2012 (CST)
:The Glock 17 holds 17 rounds, but where they went from there I have no idea.--[[User:--JazzBlackBelt--|--JazzBlackBelt--]] 22:00, 20 January 2012 (CST)
::Is that REALLY why its called the Glock 17?!?! --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 22:01, 20 January 2012 (CST)

No its not. It came from one of these two things:
The Glock 17 was called the Glock 17 because it was Gaston Glock's 17th patent.
OR
There were 17 criteria the Austrian military had for their new pistol, that the Glock was made to meet.

Its pretty up in the air, and I've heard both stories from GLOCK reps.
-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 10:03, 21 January 2012 (CST)

User:Ranger01

2012-01-17T08:53:12Z

Ranger01:

Not much to say here, I just know what I know.

Talk:FN SCAR

2012-01-17T08:52:51Z

Ranger01: /* Discussion */

=Discussion=
just a qustion how come orderds on the SCAR-L were cancelled and the US army really liked the SCAR-H yet there are rarly senn in video games and never seen in movies? --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 22:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Politics is what happened to the SCAR-L in the army and the SCAR hasnt been getting a lot of exposure in a lot of recent games. For movies, since this is still a new gun, we aren't going to see it like M4s which are in the main stream and has been around so long. The only recent movie and TV show that I have seen with a SCAR is Inception, 24's last season and the remake Hawaii Five-0. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:41, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The SCAR is a piss poor rifle to be honest. The (initial) rave reviews from SF types were because they were given the (hand fitted test model) rifle and one (hand fitted) mag of (hand loaded specialty) ammo (on a range, in perfect conditions) and told to give their opinion based on that. FN then refused to actually give any SF guys the rifle to do a thorough testing and evaluation. If you notice the units that got the rifles for testing, none of them have much experience with any rifles other than standard issue, and crap that they confiscate and mess around with on the range (much less experience with evaluating a rifle). In addition, the units that got the rifle never were in heavy combat with them. A few SF types managed to "get ahold" of a couple of (full production) SCAR-H and SCAR-L rifles for a while, and their opinion was that it sucked ergonomically, it had piss poor parts fit up, and was made really cheaply.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

:I have no idea if the SCAR is "piss-poor", but general consensus amongst people who have fired it seems to be that it isn't enough of an improvement over the AR series to justify replacement costs. Also, funny story: My range has a SCAR-16S for rental, and when I went there for my 25th birthday, I planned to rent it so that I could try it out for myself. However, when I got there, they told me it was in the shop for maintenance. Not sure what happened or if it's an endemic problem with the SCAR in general, but it seems rather odd that it would need maintenance so soon (since it was only this past May that they got it in). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

::To be fair to your range, and admittedly I have no idea where it is, but there is the possibility that the maintenance could have been routine. As with all things new probably everyone wanted to try it out so it may have had higher than the usual number or rounds pumped through it. --[[User:Charon68|Charon68]] 23:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

If its intended to replace the AR system it should be able to withstand a "higher than usual number of rounds". I had a chance to fire a 16-S and 17-S and I hated the things. I prefer the AR system to the SCAR as it is. The SF opinion is pretty well summed up here: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10133 -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

::Dude I'm sorry, but there is no way a SCAR is a crappy weapon. The weapon is made by FNH, who never has put out a terrible weapon in their life. I'm honestly not sure I believe your evaluation of the SCAR and here is why:
:::The round count before failure is unbelievably better than the AR series, the fit is intentionally a little loose to improve reliability yet tight enough to be accurate. It uses a gas piston operation on top of the looser tolerances in order to achieve AK like reliability. The average # of failures per 10,000 rounds for the SCAR is in the 200's, but the AR family is just under 900. The SCAR can go from 8"-20" barrels with the pop of 2 pins like the AR, and can also change calibers as easily. Ergonomically, all controls are identical with the exception of the charging handle, which is actually placed in a ''better'' location! I'm sorry you don't like it, but it is an excellent weapon. The ACR family is cheaper to make, however the versatility of it is terrible right now as it can only switch between 2 calibers in one barrel length.
:::PS: Professionalsoldiers.com is 100% mall ninja's and military wannabe's. Soldiers aren't even allowed to use sites like that, and even if they joined after they were discharged, they weapons they talk about weren't even around when they were in. Nothing said there can be taken seriously. Thanks for reading all of this: --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 09:40, 15 December 2011 (CST)

It's taken me a while to respond to this, had other things going on. The reason the SCAR system sucks ergonomically is not location of controls or handles, its the design of certain things (stock, forend, etc). The ones I got my hands on (S models, not mil versions) just did not feel as solid as I am used to in a weapon (the stock in particular), were front heavy, and the forend sucks for trying to attain a good grip without a vert grip attached due to the rails and it being so blocky. Its a good idea, just implemented poorly. As for PS being full of mall ninjas... well, you either didn't look much, or got banned for breaking one of the many rules and then didn't look. I can tell you that it is one of the few military sites that is NOT plagued by the mall ninjas, you pretty much have to be vetted of your qualifications to be able to talk about anything on there. I don't know where you get your info but soldiers can use pretty much any site they want(aside from some obvious ones) and say anything they want that doesn't violate persec/opsec or compromise the integrity of the US Military. As for the "equipment that wasn't available when they were in" remark... well these guys aren't your average 11B who leaves after his 1 or 2 enlistments are up. They are career soldiers, most are senior NCOs and in their 30s, and they keep in contact after they retire. If a retired SF soldier is in the neighborhood I don't doubt for a minute that they can test out the new "toy of the month". That is if they weren't hired to help design the thing in the first place.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 02:52, 17 January 2012 (CST)

== First & third, but no second generation? ==
Is there even a such thing as a second-generation SCAR? If so, how did it differ from the first and third gen versions shown on the page? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:16, 15 December 2011 (CST)
[[Image:SCAR 2nd gen w EGLM.jpg|thumb|none|400px|]]
This maybe? I am not 100percent sure tho. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 05:26, 15 December 2011 (CST)
:UPDATE: According to world.guns.ru it is the Gen2 prototype. [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 06:38, 15 December 2011 (CST)
::Well, I think I see at least ''one'' of the differences: This one appears to still have the 90-degree fire selector, while the third gen model has the same 180-degree selector as the M16/M4 platform. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 07:16, 15 December 2011 (CST)
:::The fire selector may be slightly different to differentiate between a civilian and military model... Just saying... --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 09:42, 15 December 2011 (CST)
::::Maybe so, but the one pictured above has an S/1/A trigger group signifying safe, semi, and full auto. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:31, 15 December 2011 (CST)
:::::Most military type semi autos have the external look of S/1/A fire selector, but internally only allow the selector to be put onto 1 and the full auto is removed. The only way you would know is by opening up the gun to look at the internals. Just saying... --[[User:Ranger12|Ranger12]] 09:10, 16 December 2011 (CST)
::::::Okay, here's a pic of a civilian SCAR-16S from FN's website [http://www.fnhusa.com/support/images/dynamic/m/FNM0152mb.png], which you can clearly see the receiver has only two fire selector markings. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:02, 20 December 2011 (CST)

== FN SCAR 16/17 ==

How do these relate to the FN SCAR 16/ SCAR 17 that are listed on the FNH website? Am I correct is saying that the FN SCAR 16 = FN SCAR-L and the FN SCAR 17 = FN SCAR-H?? Any help would be great! :-) --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 12:45, 15 January 2012 (CST)
:Exactly right. Right now I know a guy who has both rifles and outside of being semi auto only and having a really loud muzzle break attached they are the same weapons. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 12:56, 15 January 2012 (CST)
::Gotcha! Thanks man. I wanted to added specifications for the SCARs but couldn't find the -L or -H on the website. Now I know why! --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 16:33, 15 January 2012 (CST)

== Specifications ==

I am in the process of adding specifications for the different variants. Should I add the specs for each individual one? (I.E. Should I have the specs for the SCAR-L Standard, SCAR-L CQC & SCAR-L LB?) At the moment I just put the specs for the Standard model. I can add the others but I was worried it would become confusing and cluttered. --[[User:Zackmann08|Zackmann08]] 16:45, 15 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Operation Condor

2012-01-14T10:14:21Z

Ranger01: /* Last gun on the Page? */

=DVD or Blue-Ray screencaps=
Anybody who has this movie on blue-ray or DvD that can uppgrade the screencaps for better quallity ones?

=Last gun on the Page?=
Can someone please identify the last gun on this page?

Looks like a Llama or a Star... Most likely the former based on the "lanyard stud" and odd grip angle.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 04:14, 14 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Medal of Honor (2010)

2012-01-08T02:51:54Z

Ranger01: /* M16A4 or M16A3 or R0901 */

==Remington M24 a fake==
Has anyone else noticed that the M24 in the game is in fact a Savage Model 10FCPXP rifle? And on top of that, the same rifle appears re-skinned as the M40 in Battlefield: Bad Company 2 Vietnam, albeit with a different scope?--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 21:01, 8 August 2011 (CDT)
==Missing weapons: Heavy Weapons In Singleplayer and Explosives Multiplayer==
For the sake of being a complete guide there are still some weapons missing. The weapons I notice missing from this list include the emplaced weapons: The ZU-23 Anti-Aircraft gun which is seen in both singleplayer and multiplayer as an unusable model. The DShK heavy machine gun which appears in singleplayer on a shielded tripod mount and in "Breaking Bagram" as a technical mounted weapon that is used momentarily by the player. The explosives in the multiplayer game and their detonators deserve a separate mention as well (the C4 and IED respectively). The C4 is also used once in "Dorthy's a Bitch" in singleplayer. The SOFLAM in singleplayer may also be mentioned if it counts. The mortar used by the Taliban in the singleplayer game is pretty generic but might use a mention.

P.S. I would include them myself but I need to find a way to take screenshots via my PS3. Is there software to do this? [[User:Maphisto86|Maphisto86]] 07:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
==Glock 19, tan Frame?==
That frame looks tan. Not OD at all.

Its definately tan, I'm also pretty sure its a glock 17, my TV is low def but I'm sure its says 17.

Don't need to see the number to see that its a 17, its grip says all.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 17:30, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Glock classified it's frames as OD, not tan. Take it up with Glock.

is it possible its a Glock 22? it would make sense with the ammo count. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 19:25, 3 April 2011 (CDT)
I completely agree it's a Glock 22. I do way more damage with it.

==Missing weapons==
[[Glock 19]], Deuce's sidearm both suppressed and unsuppressed.

[[DShK]], which you have to suppress in the first Ranger mission.

==Any screenshots of "new sidearms"==
So we can add to main page?

-Yeah, I hear there's a Glock, but I have yet to see it.--[[User:Jackie.45Cal|Jackie.45Cal]] 15:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It's in any level that you play as Duece. I'd take screenshots, but my camera sucks and I only have the 360 version of the game.--[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 16:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

What model is it? I've heard 19.--[[User:Jackie.45Cal|Jackie.45Cal]] 16:39, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It's a 19. 15+1 cap

I don't get the game until tomorrow (ready for a whole weekend of no work!) and if it hasn't been added, I'll see if I can get some pictures up.--[[User:Jackie.45Cal|Jackie.45Cal]] 09:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm just about done with the Airfield mission, so I'll be getting shots of Deuce's Glock 19 soon.--[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 19:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

==New Sidearms confirmed!==
New article reviled.

SF has a Glock.
Ranger has the M9.
And someone we havent seen named Rabbit Has a Sig. Navy Seal im guessing

"When you play as "Rabbit" you carry a Sig which looks like it has night sights.. When you play as "Deuce" you carry a Glock. And when you are Dante Adams you carry the M9. These weapons can never be dropped, never run out of ammunition, and are an integral part of each character’s identity. The variety in these side arms is also intended to help give distinction and personality to each of the characters represented in "Neptune", "Wolfpack" and 1/75th Ranger"
:I have two things to say about that. One, I'm happy I wont have to look at an M9 throughout the campaign. Two, I hope they allow you to pick which pistol you use in mp since it'd effectively wouldn't change the balance at all. Just allow more individualism to the players. Did I mention I'm really tired of seeing the M9 in my games?
::Forgive Beretta if they've created one of the most successful pistols of all time, and it happens to be used by the U.S. military. So...I think either you should go design a new gun to replace it, or just live with it. Unless of course you want them to have the U.S. standard sidearm be an HK P30 just to be 'original'.

:Like most games the handguns will have different powers even if they're the same caliber, I'm betting. At least in Multiplayer anyways. Because in the level up screen you can see a level up sidearm section. And I'm hopeing only pistol are sidearms. Unlike modern 2 which had Shotguns and Machine pistols, which unbalanced the game

:You DO remember the first Modern Warfare where you can have TWO primary weapons on you, that's even worse. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
::Actually, MoH gives you two primaries and your secondary. Which actually isn't as bad as most would think. Some operators use a shotgun and their AR, and I'm sure having an SMG, a pistol and an M4 wouldn't be too bad, since I did it once for a test of my webgear for a review. Also, it's possible they could just use the different pistol models as just that, models. Same stats, but different appearance. --[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 05:05, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

If you really think about it, having 2 Primaries on you, plus your sidearm is just too much. Maybe for a shotgun, but even then. You'd have 3 sets of reloads and it's already heavy on you. The only times An operator needs a shotgun alongside his rifle is that he needs to breach a door and no one else has a shotgun. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
:I agree with ya about the having 3 different reloads, but depending on the weapons, the weight isn't so bad, or at least less noticeable. Anyway, it really could be worse. They could have you carrying two different types of rocket launchers and a machine gun like you can do in the Halo series.
:At least they're making it so that you don't ditch a pistol two seconds into a level. I've always hated how any sidearm looses all use less than a minute into a game.--[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 06:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Am I the only one here distressed by the ''unlimited ammo'' aspect of the sidearms? This game is getting to be more and more ridiculous as it is. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:26, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

: Remember MW2 ? 400 rounds was total standard. And there isnt any true difference between ''unlimited'' and 400.

I liked it back when you can keep your sidearm and just pick up another primary. Sure it's a bit unrealistic to be carrying the max ammo for that gun, but not as unrealistic as dropping your handgun for a shotgun [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 14:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
:''The setup that Army of Two had was kinda neat. One primary (usually an assault rifle), your sidearm (a handgun or machine pistol), and a special weapon, like a sniper rifle or launcher of some sort - the special weapon usually had the least amount of ammo available. I'd like to see that for a game like this, and frankly, it'd make a lot more sense (I know about Rainbow Six: Vegas, but I'm quite unimpressed with how that game flows to be honest with you). When going into heavy combat, I'd like to have some kind of quickly accessible sidearm for when the shit well and truly hits the fan. If my main weapon runs dry and I need to switch, the backup shouldn't be a long gun that's equally as...cumbersome to bear as the rifle was (MW2, I'm looking at you). As for unlimited ammo, well, that's a tough one for me. Sometimes I really like having that capability (such as in Splinter Cell: Conviction with their sidearms). Other times, well, it's nice to know that I can't just fire all willy-nilly and carefree, because then I'll be out of ammo. I think that it should be an unlockable bonus - like Saints Row 2 or Resident Evil 5. Give people the option to play with it on or off, if they choose. Just don't glitch it like CoD4 did. --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 22:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)''

Where was it shown you get two primarys? Pretty sure its one primary and sidearm. Ive never seen or read about that in this game.

Two primary weapons in SP. One in MP.

Two primaries can make sense, a barett 82 and m240 makes no sense, but if you are using m24 or m40, it would make sense to carry an m4 for defense when your close up instead of room clearing with a bolt action.

==Possible 1911==
Settle an argument for me lads. Picture below, Possible 1911 if the standard Taliban Grach? [http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs544.ash1/31810_408238329053_135747814053_4185509_6821919_n.jpg] I doubt we can go by bore aperture on this one.--[[User:Jackie.45Cal|Jackie.45Cal]] 00:48, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Looks like the Grach, doesn't have the distinct look of a 1911's muzzle.

==Knife?==

I watched the "Leave a Message" trailer recently. I think one of the Rangers had a Gerber LMF II knife attached to his MOLLE vest. I own this same knife which is why it caught my eye.
:Maybe so, but we need to avoid putting knives down. Yes, the MW2 page as well as some others have knives, but I'm in favor of removing said knives from said pages entirely. The site is called Internet Movie '''Firearms''' Database for a reason. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 06:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I prefer it to have ALL weapons listed its interesting and gives more content.
:''In that case, list it here in the discussion page when the game releases. A great example of this is the page for 2004's The Punisher. GM45 (I think it was him) took great care to screencap the variety of knives that movie had and list them there (among other things). But he left the main body of the page for the guns, which is why people come to this website.'' --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 22:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
::It is a member's CHOICE to add non-firearm weapons for trivia purposes. As long as the added blades or other weapons are well documented and the page does not consist entirely of non-firearms, it's perfectly fine. They're in a gray area, like explosives (grenades and C4 aren't firearms yet we document them) and improvised weapons (like the drill in Tomb Raider). - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

==beta release date?==

When will 360 beta be out? I keep hearing within a week but have seen no announcements by the company.
:http://twitter.com/medalofhonor
:http://twitter.com/pottan

Both links failed, and im getting pissed waiting, gives you high hopes for the games multiplayer when a short beta is this delayed......

I heard somewhere they're going to run it after they fix the bugs from the PS3/PC Betas, after they're done, because it will allow them to find new problems and because it saves money. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 21:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

==weapon balance==

i just saw the 12 round beretta mentioned i think they did that for balance reasons. Another game too focused on fairness. God forbid you unlock a gun later on that just owns.

-k9870

Yeah its kind of annoying when its that balanced, at least you could pretend its the .40, but I wouldn't even know what to do with the Grach, its named the Tariq (which is something else) and has 12 rounds too, when its supposed to have 17. Wait, couldn't they both just have been 16 to be in between? If I WAS going to make an overly balanced system like this, I'd try to make it close, why take them both down to 12? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
::Pretend it's the .40 too

Haha too bad there isn't one... WAIT! If you really want to stretch it you could pretend its the compact MP-448, 12 rounds of 9x18mm lol :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:02, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I hate when the do something like "the m4 has 20 power and 30 fire rate, the AK has 30 power and 20 fire rate, so there balanced. Then they go weapon x is more accurate than weapon y since its weaker and needs an advantage. I wish when you leveled up you had guns with good advantages that just own.

-k9870

I want a game that keeps the round in the chamber, keeps track of your extra mags (not the one big number bullshit), all the functions to be right, none of the guns to be set in a firing mode they're not in, the ability to switch modes to whatever that weapon has, the correct attachments (no AKs with ACOGs, or M14s and G3s with M203s), the correct animations for reloads, correct fire rates, correct mag capacities, correct zooms on scopes and no zoom on reflex sights/irons sights, its not really too much to ask I don't think. The only thing that would be arguable would be damage stuff does, but for the MOST part if you used the calibre measurement as the damage it would work (i.e. 5.56mm does about 22 damage, 7.62mm does 30, .50 does 50) it's not perfect but I at least want the guns with the same calibres to do the same damage... Rant done. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 22:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
:There is a game for you, it's called ArmA. Mainstream arcadey FPS won't have all these features. But I agree at least counting bullet up the pipe would be nice touch. That always bugged me too. I have no idea why CoD games still doesn't have this. Anyway, ACOG (or any other weaver optic) on AK is not a problem via special mount. 203 on G3 and M14 is possible too.

Oh believe me, I wouldn't need ALL that, I still play the mainstream FPSs, it would just be nice, I just kept going with the list ;) And I do know you can technically put an ACOG on an AK or a 203 on the M14 or G3, but it would be nice to see the things that are supposed to be there... there, like the HK79. The attachments thing certainly wouldn't be as important to me as the round in the chamber, and I don't think guns of the same calibre having the same damage would be too much, its not that would take any extra effort... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
:Same caliber doesn't always do same damage when shot from different barrels. M16 and M4 is a good example. In case with M16 bullet tumble and fragment thus making more damage, but when the same ammo shot from M4 it does not.

I knew that but didn't want to make my posts too long ;)That's fair, I meant more the stuff that doesn't make sense, like a 12 gauge that does more damage than another 12 gauge because it's pump action vs semi-auto, or like in Modern Warfare 2, which is the game I'm mostly complaning about, the F2000 has a 15.7" barrel and does 30 damage, while the TAR-21 has an 18.1" does 40, I know the idea of damage as a numerical system like this isn't realistic in a lot of ways, but it's the best anyone has been able to come up with so far, and I wouldn't think 2.4 inches of barrel would make that much of a difference. Put it this way, out of the 9 assault rifles in that game there are only 3 different damages, the 30, 40, and 55, keep in mind that the calibres here are 5.56, 7.62, and 7.62 NATO: the M4, ACR, and F2000 do 30, the FAMAS, SCAR, TAR-21, M16A4, and AK-47 do the same (lol what?) at 40, and the FAL does a whopping 55 (because its semi). But the single worst is the UMP and Super V, both .45s with a comparible barrel length, the UMP does 40 (again) and the the Super V does... 25. I know there should be differences but this makes NO SENSE. Sorry, I know this is the Medal Of Honor page, but everyone here seems smarter... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 07:34, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
:It's not a simulator. They needed to differentiate gun's performance. Besides, most people playing it doesn't know shit which caliber it shoots. So probably it's better to just get over it. Try playing hardcore mode and weapon damage won't bother you so much.

I know :) it doesn't really matter too much, it would just be nice, but I'm not expecting it though lol [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:40, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

seriously, no 1911 very disapointing. it might be outdated but Special Forces still use them. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Who said there won't be a 1911 in the final game? This isn't the final game. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:45, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
i dont know. i just figured since its not on the page already they wouldnt have it. but i hope they do. its a great gun and is used by Spec Ops. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
i think that all the comparisons come from MW2 because it has an overwhelming amount of flaws. for example- what has been previously stated. and does anyone else find it peculiar that all assault rifles lose the front sight when optics are attached? knowone would do that its stupid. what if there was a long battle and you ran out of battery on a dime, nope your dead now. and i kind of agree with the lack of a back sight because it takes away the point of the reflex being quick if you have to line 3 things to a target instead of the 1-2 or a normal rifle.

==First Part==

This game looks very promising in terms of realism and graphics compared to the other games. I'm excited to see that the game developers are working with REAL special forces operators. The game comes out in Fall 2010. CAN'T FREAKIN WAIT!!!!!!- ArmoredMason619

I've always had a soft spot with this series. I really hope they knock it out of the park with this one.

I'm guessing the guy on the front cover is a Green Beret?-- [[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]]

:For some reason I though the guy on the front page was a PMC --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 05:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Na he is a Green Beret. That's the way they look when they are in a combat zone. They have to grow out a beard and dress like the civilians/insurgents in that particular area.-ArmoredMason619

A World War II shooter series is switching to a modern setting? It'll never work.
:Your kidding right...and sign your posts --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 23:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The graphics appear to be on par with ''[[America's Army 3]]'', though hopefully it'll have less problems and a better weapon selection. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 23:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The trailer had what looked like an [[FN Minimi#M249-E1 / M249-E2 / M249 Paratrooper SAW|M249 SAW]] variant fitted with an EOTech red dot sight, but I only saw it for a second looking down the sights in first-person mode so couldn't determine wether it was a standard SAW or specialized version like the Paratrooper or [[FN Minimi#FN Minimi SPW|SPW]]. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 23:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I added a screen of the M4A1 and the Minimi/SAw possibilty. --[[User:TheCrazyGunNut|TheCrazyGunNut]]

Ah, cheap EA.. This is so obvious that they are doing this because of MW success. Won't buy just because of this fact.

Or because WWII has been overdone and they wanted to do something else. --[[User:Crazycrankle|Crazycrankle]] 02:42, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

20th century saw so many wars. They could pick any one. The most suitable would be Vietnam war. I can't recall many good games about this conflict. It could be about SF also.

How about Vietcong? http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Vietcong In my personal oppinion the best PC game from Vietnam conflict up to date. I know that the Vietcong wasn't perfect but other games usually wasted their potential (e.g. Conflict Vietnam, Men of Valor) ended as a low quality budget (first Shellshock 67 and many others) or as some crazy VC/NVA-zombie kill fest (recent Shellshock 2).

I agree that there were many other "interesting" conflicts or suitable theathers for FPS games but "supply is influenced by demand". The "anti-terrorist" theme is actual and developers don't want to risk introducing a game that "nobody would want to play". Remember it's all about the money. Actually it's quite strange that if I look backwards I can't recall any good or partially realistic FPS from Afganistan or Iraq theatre - Modern Warefare, appart from other parts of the story, was set partialy in the Middle East but in some fictisious country (and that *** spoliler *** nuking of the whole Marine division *** spoiler *** was complete bullshit) and Modern Warefare 2 was about hunting down some crazy Russian ultranationalists (and *** spoiler *** one rouge American general *** spoiler *** that was bullshit as well). No offence to Call of Duty but I personally hope that Medal of Honor would not turn into such killfest of stupid AI NPC duchebags thrown in absolutely ridiculous waves into a single coridor where you have to kill more than 70 opponents on less than 100 square feet ...

:::Wow, so doing something original is bullshit? I mean, come on; I'd rather shoot 70 guys in a single cooridor than simply go from cave to cave, shooting the occasional militant, or riding about in my vehicle until I hit a bomb and get ambushed. Generic examples I know, but put simply, fighting a military-trained, fully-equipped soldier is a lot more exciting than some fanatical militant using 30-year-old weapons. Heck, even America's Army created a fictional enemy for the US Army to fight.

Judging by what I'm seeing in the trailer this is going to be far from any CoD style of modern warfare. This shit looks seriously hardcore in terms of trying to replicate some actual Iraq/Afghanistan gameplay. I guess only time will tell. Hopefully by then they fix the damn gas block thing. Fuck that pisses me off. These guys are working with tier 1 operators but they don't want to model the damn gun correctly. Anybody with even slight knowledge of an AR-15 platform would notice this error. It's a big frickin error.[[User:ShaDow XPS|ShaDow XPS]]

:::"replicate actual Iraq/Afghanistan gameplay"? So coalition forces playing in a sandbox there? And duh, there is a gas-block, it's just too low-profile and you cannot see it.

::::Even if the gas block isn't there, does it really matter? The average gamer probably doesn't know, or care, what a gas block is, let alone whether it's actually there or not; and the Medal of Honor series goes for what looks cool (such as the Flak Tower in Airborne), not what's realistic.

Don't change the intent of my words. Let me rephrase :::"replicate some actual Iraq/Afghanistan fighting into gameplay." There happy? As well the use of a low profile gas block seems like an excuse. What are the chances that every M4 has a low profile gas block when there are attached optics?[[User:ShaDow XPS|ShaDow XPS]]
:::Why not? It's a game about hi-speed low-drag tear1 omfgd3ltasealz special forces operators.
::::That's ''Tier'' 1. And even a low-profile gas block would still be visible on the barrel where the standard FSP would be due to the length of the gas tube. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

North American release date is October 12, 2010. Europe is October 15.-- [[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFpgNJZ8Fhc&playnext_from=TL&videos=vd-xeQ7FyHw
^ At 0:56, 1:04, 1:16 you can see a stock, body, and barrel of a M14 EBR.
At O:43 you can see what I believe to be some kind of M240.*EDIT: Mk 46 Mod 0*
All along the trailer are M4s with optics and different accessories. -DeltaOp
:Was the Mark 14 EBR even fielded yet in 2002? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

- Nope. EBR was designed around that date - 2001/2002 but first units (mostly from Navy Seals) were issued this rifle later on in 2004. So it's probably another game inaccuracy.

Who said it was set in 2002? And the gas block isn't removed for optics like in Call Of Duty, it's removed when the M203's flip up sight is on top, I'm thinking it's not to block that, not that I think it would block it, but that's when it's not there, not because of optics. EDIT: Wow my bad, it is set then, and I was thinking the M203 was an attachment, but its fixed on like in BFBC2, wow, I feel dumb lol. EDIT #2: I figured it out, the M16 removes the front sight for optics, but the M4 doesn't. Odd. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 08:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

== Green Beret on cover ==
It's ''Cowboy''! [http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/12/03/news-bearded-guy-on-medal-of-honor-cover-is-real.aspx] [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

:Lmao. Oh i didnt think of that one. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]

Anyone think its kinda odd that the Rangers seem to be doing alot of the work. along with the Green Beret. Wouldnt Delta Force/Navy SEALs be doing most of the stuff?

1st SFOD-D and Navy SEALs are, let's say, "equal" to Special Forces concerning their roles within US SOCOM. They are highly trained operators used for specific and "delicate" stuff. Rangers are more like muscless used for more "dirty" tasks. In reality, you would rather send a Special Forces A-Team to do cool things like - to recon the enemy airfield, to pin point potential high-value targets, to set observation post for calling CAS missions or to set sniping posts with 18B class operators with sniper rifles; while few C-130s packed with Ranger chalks would wait to "go-order" so they can jump in, do all the hard work and blow the enemy to pieces. Special Forces (Delta/SEALs etc.) are too valuable for such things. Even though, they are capable of kicking some serious ass, it is not practical to "mass" several A- or SEAL teams for a task, which bunch of Ranger squads could do better.[Ragnar]

okay thats true, but i just dont see why there wouldnt be SOME Operators or SEALs, think about this. Rangers are like the backbone of USSOCOM, Green Berets, are trained in Reconaissance, but if u want to kick some serious Taliban ass, u send in Operators or SEALs, because they excel at kickin' the door down, and opening up some whoop-ass. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 00:40, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
:Who is the "Operators"?
::Delta "Operators". [[User:Pz.Abt.100|Pz.Abt.100]] 22:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

but really, i no Delta is more of a mission specific unit, but seriously what is America's best military asset? 1stSFOD-D. why? because they have close to 500 Operators, the best in the world. and officially they dont exist. political bull shit in the way, no problemo. they dont exist. its denieble if you send them in.[[Special:Contributions/71.194.219.9|71.194.219.9]] 19:03, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok let me straightin this out just a bit. Ragnar is correct about what they say but somethings are a bit off. First, 1st SFOD-D and SEALs are not exactly the same. The Navy's equivalent of 1st SFOD-D(Delta, or the DODs name for them CAG[Combat Applications Group]) is DEVGRU( Naval Special Warfare Development Group, more commonly known as SEAL Team Six), yes they are SEALs but they serve a different purpose. Second, you are right about the purpose of Ranger's, besides the fact that a select few have been sent on small team missions(4 to 12). The 75th Ranger Regiment is the highest for of Ranger special operations beside a certain few Task Force's they have been added to. Delta, DEVGRU, SAD, and SOG are among the designated, "Tier 1" units in the U.S.

== Guns revealed in multi-player demo at E3 ==
(These are just what I could spot while watching it on TV)
*Beretta 92FS/M9 (not a 92SB like in CoD, had the squared-off trigger guard)
*Pump-action shotgun I couldn't identify (they only showed it from the back)
*Bolt-action sniper rifle, presumably a Remington M24 (only saw it from the back and right side as the player was working the bolt)
*Not actually a new gun, but the M4A1 also had a low-profile front BUIS mounted on the RIS is some scenes
[[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 22:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If you check the kill feed immediately after the kill with the sniper rifle, the identifies the unknown rifle as a Sako M57. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 16:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I found some footage: http://videos.pcgames.de/v/MuuqC3iXMpw/Medal-of-Honor/Multiplayer-Gameplay-E3-2010/ (the shotgun is a TOZ-194)

More confirmed weapons. I recommend you keep your eye to the left of the screen, below the radar, to see some weapons we have missed while watching the video.

RPK-Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

RPG 7-In-game footage

AK-47-Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

AT-4 (I think by the ingame footage)

M9- From ingame footage

SVD Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

M249 Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

TT-30 Seen ingame

MP7A1 This one was very hard to see (Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

M-21 Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

870MCS Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

M60 Can be seen as a weapon that killed the player on the screen (look left of gameplay)

== List ==
I'm gonna put all the ones I've seen down, so we've got one big list (this is all from the 11 minute long multiplayer video, both seen on screen and on the killfeed) If the names are given (killfeed ones) I'm writing them exactly as they are named in game. For the ones that aren't named I'll name them what they are.

M16

M203

AK-47

GP-30

M249

PKM

M4

AKS-74u

870MCS

TOZ-194

AT4

RPG-7

M21

SVD (NOTE: Has a straight .308 magazine)

M24

SV-98

M9

MP-443 (NOTE: Appears as the Tariq, which I thought that was an Iraqi-made Beretta clone...)

(From here down is not in the Beta)

RPK

MP7A1

M240

M60

M14 EBR (Seen in other videos. It is NOT the same as the M21 like it is in certain other games, the M21 has a normal M21 type body and stock, BOTH are in this.) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

==Spliting into sections ==
Wont it make sence to make two sections ? One with MP´s guns and one with SP´s guns. I think it will - because they dont use same engine, so guns can be different.

Why would the single player and multiplayer use different engines? That makes no sense. It would make the modelers have to model everything twice, and take up twice as much space on disc. No. We're not going to do that.-protoAuthor 19:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

: It '''USES''' different engines. MP is running on frostbite, and SP is running on UT3 one.

Not sure if i'm doing this right, but yes it uses different engines, and the modelers do not have to model everything twice, they can easily import it from a common format to both engine's formats, PSK Mesh (or something) for UT3, and a new version of bundledmesh contained in RES files for frostbite. You don't have to model it twice, you just export within both engines.

:It still makes no sense to split up the page. But thank you for enlightening me to something that still makes no sense to me. Why would they do that?-protoAuthor 16:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The only reason i could possibly see would be to make a comparable multiplayer experience for BFBC2 players, And they might have already started building singleplayer on the unreal engine, which most if not all of the previous MoH games used. In my opinion, it shouldn't be split either, means some firearms would be listed twice. btw this isn't the original poster, this is the guy from the post before proto's last.

: Ok than. It doesnt have to be split, but there should be atlest writed to each screenshot " This is from Multiplayer/ Singleplayer". And just one little '''BTW''': They modelled it twice. As you can see, M4 or MK46 '''''HAVE''''' different models.

That's because the M4 and Mk. 46 are different guns, silly.-protoAuthor 04:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

:Heh. I mean that M4 looks different in SP and MP. Same with Mk.46

They do look different but I think its just because one sets from that first trailer a while ago, game's graphics always get better as develpment keeps going, but you might be right to, I was just throwing that out there. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 08:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

== LMG Special Weapons ==

In the sniper class you get C4, in the special ops class you get a rocket, and with an assault rifle in the rifleman class you get a launcher... so what do you get if you equip an LMG? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 09:56, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

more ammo?

:Absolutely nothing. You have 2 spare 150 round mags (in the beta, with the PK).
::You have self-destruct vest.

Is that a joke or can you actually be a suicide bomber, cause what would the American gunners get? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 21:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
:C4

It is then? Okay cool, I figured but I wasn't sure, I can't check because the 360 beta was delayed :( [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:37, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
== Best of 3 shooters? ==

I have to say, out of the 3 FPS games that will be coming out in Q4 (this one, Spec Ops: The Line, and CoD: Black Ops), I am looking forward to Medal of Honor the most. From what I've seen about the other two, they look like they're filled with sensationalist b.s. . -Any Mouse

:MoH looks WAY to much like Bad Company 2, and I think it's EAs fault. They want to capitalize on the modern warfare craze so much, they're using another popular series to boost sales. To be honest, MOH looks like BC2 with Taliban, and I'll most likely not be getting it. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]]

Medal of honor is not going to be way too much like BC2 because the gameplay will be much more tactical and realistic. Like real modern warfare.

:Says you man. Face it, it's going to be bought by the same type of people who buy MW2 and BC2, mostly idiot kids ranging from 10 to 15 who just wanna get four man sprays and noob tubes across the map. This is a console FPS that can be bought by anyone, and has nothing to offer that will make it overly unique, so it will end up like MW2 and BC2, noob weapons will arise, and it will just be another chaotic FPS. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]]
:You got a point there.

Spec Ops: the Line is a third person shooter, not an FPS.

Sorry, my bad. I thought it was one of those deals like Fallout 3 where you could switch from first-to-third-person and back -Any Mouse

== Animations ==

I know this is off-topic, but am I the only one bothered by the way your character moves? If a gun is bouncing around in your hands while you move like that, there's gotta be something wrong...

I think that only happens in multiplayer due to it being a different engine, but yeah it is weird

I was really psyched about the game untill i found out it was made by the people who made BF-BD2. you said it was a different engine. does that mean that it will be different creators or what? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 17:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Mp is made by BC2 (''not BD2'' ) creators - DICE. So it means only good part on that game will be SP - developed by EA on UT3 engine.

== Full Auto M16A4 ==

Wouldn't having an M16A4 on full auto make it a C7A1? I know there are a few other differences, but they're all internal, it's the only difference visible in some way. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

:Well I would have said M16A3, but those didn't have rails. So yes, the only M16 variant that has an RIS system and goes full-auto is the C7A2, so indeed this new game uses a C7. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]]

::M16A4 with FA lower - what could be easier

:Personally, I wouldn't call "full-auto" M16A4 a C7A2. C7A2 has some, more or less significant, differences - e.g. ambidextrous fire selector or retractable stock. Plus Canadian military did not use full length RIS systems (e.g. like King Arms M5 on M16A4) on their C7s. Full-auto M16A4 is just another game-developer inaccuracy created by lack of knowledge about firearms. Unfortunately, it's a trend in nowadays mainstream FPS like Modern Warfare or Battlefield Bad Company. Game developers just give a sh*t about this stuff. 13-year-old kids screaming and b*tching in multiplayer would not notice the difference. [Ragnar]
:: 3-burst is for nubs that can't cut it by themselves.

::The M5 RAS on the M16A4 is made by KAC, not King Arms. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:33, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course I realize that having it full auto is just a screw up, like in most movies, and I'm not talking about the C7A2, with the green furniture and ambi controls, I meant the C7A1, which is the same in terms of appearance. Here's one without an ELCAN, because I know someone will complain about that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/7/76/20080716042205!C7A1_with_IronSights.JPG
Oh and you can put the KAC Rails on any M16-length AR, so that's not really an issue, some of the C7A1s (like the one pictured) had them put on before the C7A2 was introduced with the TRIAD. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

:It could be a C7, but really, it's just EA's lack of knowledge about weapons, cause full auto is what every assault rifle shoots, right? Man, games like Call of Duty 4 tried their best to keep weapons accurate, now it's all about tacticool weapons that fire full auto and have cool sights and nice finishes. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]]

Yeah I know, and guns don't need to be re-chambered after they run empty too :p in this and Bad Company 2, it's kind of distracting when I'm playing to be honest, well, I've gotten used to it a little more by now. Okay what I don't get is why can't it be listed as a C7A1? Or at least mentioned... If there was an gun listed as an M4 (not A1) and it was firing full auto you guys would have no problem saying it's actually an M4A1, or an AK-47 is really an AKM, so why can't the M16 really be a C7? I realize it's just a mistake on the developer's part, but that doesn't stop us pointing out the other ones... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:56, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

:I think it would be a good idea if we mentioned that in reality, this would class it as a C7A1 etc. [[User:Hoot471|Hoot471]] 18:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Has there even ever been any instances of a burst-firing M4 used in any movie or video game? At any rate, I think just noting that it's inaccurately portrayed as full auto is enough. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:43, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

:Well if you talk to the Green Beret on Deadliest Warrior, he'll tell you the M4 can go burst AND full auto! But yeah, just classify the M16 in MOH as a C7A1, cause in reality that's what it is. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]]

::http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/1009334.page
Best 5 minutes of my life reading this! [[User:Hoot471|Hoot471]] 20:01, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

''Well if you talk to the Green Beret on Deadliest Warrior, he'll tell you the M4 can go burst AND full auto!'' - Believe it or not, 4-position selectors for AR-15 type rifles exist. There should be a link to the patent in the Season 2 discussion. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 22:44, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The so-called "Green Berets" on that show were idiot actors who didn't do their research, so I don't really give a crap about what they say. The M4A1 as used by the US military is safe/semi/auto, no burst. 4-pos selectors may exist, but the US military does not use them. That also wasn't an answer my question. ''Have there ever been any instances of a burst-firing M4 used in any movie or video game?'' By "burst-firing M4", I mean the M4 with M16A2/A4 trigger group as issued en mass to regular US Army troops. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 07:01, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I only know of two games that have M4s with the A2/A4 trigger group. There's one of the Call of Duty Modern Warfare games for the Nintendo DS, and then there's the Battlefield 2 mod [[Project Reality]], where it features both burst-firing M4s for the Americans and full-auto M4A1s for the Israelis.--[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 16:58, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:Thank you, that ''did'' answer my question. Also, lol @the thread on EA Forums. That was a pretty entertaining read. Though I quite disagree with the guy who claims you can't know anything about an M16 or other firearm without having handled or used one. I've never handled an M16, but I still know the difference between an A1, A2, A3, and A4. Good thing I quit bothering with that place within the first few days I registered, otherwise I'd probably be ankle-deep in that ****storm. XD [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 22:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:::To Hoot471, that forum nearly gave me a headsplosion, how can people be so unbelievably ignorant and stupid?! - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

== Hi-Def MP videos ==

You guys might want to check this out: On YouTube, there's someone by the name of deluxe345 who has Hi-Definition videos from the Medal of Honor multiplayer (there are 3 or 4). Also, in one of these videos, I spotted an M224 mortar in the killfeed.

==360 Beta?==
Alright, does anyone on Earth have a clue when the 360 beta for this comes out!? PS3 and PC went up June 21st, and yet 360 is still delayed, anyone got a clue? [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]]

I got deployed for deepwater horizon so no vid games till september. I seriously wish that the release had been on time, I could have played it.

==Clip/Magazine==
A frivolous debate, but why oh why must they call the magazines "clips" in the game? Yuck. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
:I don't know why, but the same error happened in an episode in Lois & Clark. They probably got confused with clips and magazines since that they are both similar. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 19:02, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing similar between a clip and a magazine. A Magazine is a block that stores the bullets, a clip is a strip of metal that holds the bullets that are then FED into a Magazine. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 01:44, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

They could have said the slang term "mag" though.

=="The Catalyst" Linkin Park song trailer==

Well, there gave been some new guns spotted and i already identified few of them. But can someone help me with this ?
[[Image:MOHUNKNOWNGUN.JPG|500px|thumb|center|]]

Magazine seems to wide and big for 5.56. I truly need help with this.

Could it be the 417 ?

:Why is it that people immediatly assume a HK 416 or a HK 417 when it comes to this kind of thing? People apparently have never heard of a AR 10 before.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 19:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the MP5 is shown at one point in the trailer. I'd have to look at the trailer again to find the exact point, but I'll update when I do find the time stamp. Lets hope we see the MP5 in multiplayer as well as the campaign if my spot is correct. Also, I'm pretty sure the picture shown above is just the M4A1, but I'm not 100%. --[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 22:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
1:30 seconds in, on the operator's chest. I am pretty sure that's an MP5A3 or A5. Can anyone confirm? --[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 23:22, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
:That's M4 or might be h&k 416. Clip is just taped. Also, all this specop theme became too popularized after MW1. Don't like.
::It's called a Magazine or Mag. Don't like [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
:::After re-watching the video for the 17th or so time, the weapon I thought was the MP5 was just an MP7 that blended a little too well into the vest. That said, I did notice that one of the Rangers in the trailer was using an Aimpoint M68 (Comp M2) sight on his M4A1. Possibly another sight option? Who knows. I just know I'm excited for this game.

It's an M4 kitted out with an EOTech 552, KAC Free-Float RAS, PEQ-2A, and KAC broomstick. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

According to the Walkthrough trailor for the first mission this is CQB-R verzion of the M4A1.

:Yes, we know that ''now''. Keep in mind that my above post is dated August 2010, which was about 3 months ''before'' the game's release. There was no walkthrough to tell that at the time. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:18, 7 November 2011 (CST)

==Unimpressed....==

Anybody else feel unimpressed looking at this game? I mean, nothing about it really stands out to me. The firearm selection is trite and cliche, the modern military tacticool spec ops motif has been done far too much, and so has the idea of weapon customization. Honestly, when I saw this game I just kinda yawned and moved on. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 19:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
: About that firearms choose : So you would give terrorists XM8´s, just because its cliche in video games ? No. So why not give them weapons they use in real ?
: No I wouldn't, unless a terrorist militia could plausibly get it hand's on a bunch of HK weapons. I'm just sort of sick of seeing the same stuff over and over and over. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 09:15, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

:I actually see this as a good change from Modern Warfare and Bad Company rather than yet another tacticool game. Sure, most of it has been done, but so has most other games. At least its not YET another World War 2 sim.--[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 20:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

But see, that's the whole thing. Instead of "yet another WW2 sim," it's become "yet another Spec Ops shooter." And for the record, I liked Bad Company, and I don't see how this will be any different. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 23:30, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I am truly impressed with this game. Lets talk about it as MW2 on steroids :

:'''Much more realistic''' ('' Cmon, Russians with tavors and milita with tactical AK´s ?'' )

:'''Much better atmosphere''' ( ''That attempt to make everything cool just failed. Also enviroment wasnt the best seriously'' )

:'''Better Gameplay''' ( ''It probably wont be just about shooting thousands of enemy troops. Also helicopter. Probably even some AI will be included ?'' )

Then I better get this for my 360 then PC, cause the graphics are just as high as BC 2 so it'll mess with my PC. The Multiplayer was designed by the same guys who did Bad Company, so we see a lot of their handy work. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, comparing ANYTHING to MW2 instantly makes it better. And if what excalibur says is true, then I'm inclined to go with what everybody else has been saying and write it off as Bad Company 2 with Taliban. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 11:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
: We are talking about SP. MP will be BC2 clone ( ''Yeah. Same people are doing it, why not then ?'' ).. But SP will be better :P

Heavily looking forward to SP. MP might as well be called "Call of Duty: Bad Company 8".

Oh yeah, I'd certainly be willing to try the single player if it looks any good. Not sure if I'd pay full release price for it though, I'll probably go out and buy it later on when it gets down to like 40 bucks. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 14:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I just find it odd that they'd get a completely different group to do the multiplayer and when you look at the multiplayer, it feels like MW2 but with a different game engine. The point and level up system is essentially the same, but the classes are almost the same from Bad Company. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, I had high hopes for this game, but with the "Catalyst" trailer (overly dramatic acting plus ear-bleeding Linkin Park= FAIL), it just looks like something else that fanboys will be able to wax their carrots to. Ain't no way in hell I'm shelling out $60 just to hear some USI-infested teenager (whose gamertag is [USMC]"xxSwaggaSniperxx" or something else that sounds mall ninja-ish) cuss me out after I've killed him twice in a row.[[Special:Contributions/74.192.58.206|74.192.58.206]]

I watched said trailer and completely gave up on this game. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 09:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. After this, we're gonna hear a bunch of kids running around yelling "yaaah I am teh Tier 1!" Methinks that some top dog at EA got a boner after reading Sean Naylor's ''Not a Good Day to Die'' and got the idea to rehash a great book and dumb it down into a cheap vidya game.[[Special:Contributions/74.192.58.206|74.192.58.206]] 22:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Everyone, this is a video game. Nobody cares how realistic or how the story is, if you can shoot thing and take control of an over exaggeration of our armed forces, then people will buy it no matter what; it sells.

We care! Unrealistic video games do not bother us, but a video game that is suppose to be realistic and ends up not being realistic does bother us. This is IMFDB, we are suppose to judge how realistic weapons are in media. The SkinnyWhiteGuy from the RE: Extinction discussion.
:The reason why the multiplayer part is so similar to Battlefield: Bad Company is that DICE (the creator of the Battlefield series) created the multiplayer part while EA did the singleplayer part. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 12:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::Well yeah, if you've seen any of the trailers or behind the scenes, the EA guys tell you that. IT is still weird that they got DICE doing the multiplayer and an unknown company called "Danger Close" using the Unreal 3 Engine for the singleplayer. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 18:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

== Dragunov ==
Where did it come from that the NDM-86 is in 7.62x51mm? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
: Oh, wait, what ?
::Look at the mag in the weapon selection screen shot. It's clearly not the Dragunov's standard mag and a straight 7.62x51mm mag. I agree with whoever did the change that it's the NDM-86. --[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 13:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Well, i have done it. And it doesnt have anything to do with 7.62x51, its actually standart .308 winchester. --[[User:Werc|Werc]] 14:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
::::Last I checked, the .308 was the civilian version of the 7.62 NATO. So in other words, it's the same round for the purposes of this discussion. Don't mean to sound rude or anything, just something to think about. --[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 14:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
::::: ( ''Wow, so many "''':'''" symbols'' ) Well, .308 is more powerfull i think. But whatever - Im glad someone agrees that NDM-86 is there. --[[User:Werc|Werc]] 14:37, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
::::::It's the same basic round, 7.62 NATO is just loaded to a higher pressure than civilian .308, I think. But I now see what you mean about the mag. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of Soviet-bloc weapons, whoever labeled the AK-47 as a "Type 56" may want to check the picture where the player is looking down the sights (Hint: the front sight is not fully enclosed)
: I just renamed SVD. Type 56 is someone else´s job. --[[User:Werc|Werc]] 17:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Why is the AK labeled a Type 56? it has a open sight and no pig-sticker. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Reverted it back to AK-47. I'd like to hear the explanation as to why it was changed in the first place. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 03:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Granted there are lots of Type 56 rifles in the middle east because of the CIA, but this gun just isn't.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 19:25, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

==Ugh...==

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38740099/ns/technology_and_science-games/

words cannot describe how incredibly stupid I think this is. Nobody makes a big fuss when the Taliban is put in a movie, but the SECOND people even THINK of putting it in a VIDEO GAME... I admit, I do see how people could take this the wrong way, but seriously... it's just a game. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 19:48, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

We have 'American soldiers' dying in games like Modern Warfare 2 and BC2, but no one raises a fuss. Deal with it, news outlets. [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 20:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

God forbid our enemy get slandered in a video game!--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 20:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

thats more political bull shit. i dont know a person in america who likes the taliban. its a game. playing as the taliban doesnt mean you like their "self-righteous" and stupid anti-american ideas. thats like saying because your playing as Spetznaz in MW2 that your being insensitive. people care when you play as talibans. but dont even mention "No Russian" [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 20:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Wait, they don't make bad press articles about Grand Theft Auto 4 when that came out and sold millions, but when it comes to a game based on real soldiers, games have crossed the line? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

It gets worse than that on this side of the water; the British Defence Secretary has called for the game to be '''banned'''.
[http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100822/ttc-fox-urges-ban-on-taliban-video-game-e1d36ba.html Seriously.]
[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 08:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

'''JESUS''' Didnt you play as insurgent in MW ? Didnt you control nazi plane in all those WW flying simulators ? They are crazy. Right now, im glad that politicans are stupid in my country. Seriously, they dont even know about some MoH.

It's shocking that someone would think it acceptable to recreate the acts of the Taliban. At the hands of the Taliban, children have lost fathers and wives have lost husbands.

^^ No kidding? Same with the Nazis, and yet it's perfectly ok to play as them. There's nothing I hate more than double fucking standards. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 14:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"I am disgusted and angry. It's hard to believe any citizen of our country would wish to buy such a thoroughly un-British game. I would urge retailers to show their support for our armed forces and ban this tasteless product."
Let's get something straight here. I have played as Russian Spetsnaz, killing American and British soldiers. I have played as Japanese soldiers, killing American infantry. I have played as THE NAZIS, for god's sake, who not only killed Americans and British soldiers but also took part in the wholesale slaughter of the Jewish people. I have played as a Russian terrorist and mowed down an AIRPORT full of defenseless people, I have played as a drug dealing criminal with the option to kill innocents, a hitman with the option to brutally kill my targets, and yet if I get the option to play as a bunch of fucking towelheads, the game is an affront to humanity and needs to be BANNED? People need to wake the fuck up. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 14:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It is beginning to smack of controversy for controversy's sake. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 20:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

And now it's made its way across the pond: [http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/111/1117837p1.html] --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 21:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

[http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103328-Jack-Thompson-Vows-to-Stop-Medal-of-Honor Guess who's jumped on the bandwagon and demonstrated a mile of research-fail in the process?] [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 08:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

"the high level of realism makes it an effective training tool for the Taliban and other forces currently engaged with the U.S. military."
>because the Taliban only uses lefty configured guns, and they happen to have ALL the next gen consoles in their holes. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.151|98.118.59.151]] 19:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

This just in; EA may or may not have caved over the issue: [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103941-EA-Cuts-Taliban-From-Medal-of-Honor Clicky!] [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 14:44, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

:They caved. It's now OpFor in MultiPlayer only. So far I haven't seen anything that says it'll be changed for the single player campaign. --[[Special:Contributions/204.13.134.230|204.13.134.230]] 18:22, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Im not saying its right. by all means believe me. but its because its a hot issue. its going on now. you talk about Vietnam vets who "killed babies" no1 cares anymore. knowone cares about the brutality of or probably even knows about Somalia, Sierre Leone, Bosnia. Its because the Taliban are current. they are as we speak attempting, and trying their best, to kill American and British troops. thats why the press and dumb ass politicians think its a big deal. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== CONFIRMED new Weapons? ==

This Gameplay is from Gamescom 2010. This footage confirms the F2000 , the P90 , And others (pleae watch the killfeed, VERY Closely to see the names

http://www.gamepro.com/video/gameplay/146685/medal-of-honor-gc2010-cam-gameplay/

I got two screens, one confirming weapon customization (Thankgod maybe no Gl's on all assault rifles :'] ) and one of the F2000 WITH Correct Grenade Launcher fitting (Removed handgaurd for placement)
I will post more screens when i get them! I need Embedding help so if i post the links is that ok?

http://i33.tinypic.com/359zs06.png
&
http://i34.tinypic.com/e5fogo.png
[[User:WhatARandomer|WhatARandomer]] 08:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

In the killfeed, there is two weapons tht are unknown to most people one is called Axe (whether we get Custom Melee weapons is uncertain) and the other is HG No full name just an abbrieviation of HG.

I recall someone mentioning that the axe was the Taliban's equivalent of the knife for multiplayer. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 19:03, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the dirks use a hachet instead of a knife in the beta, kinda funny. [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 21:01, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

HG could be short for hand granade

Hmm could be, but I think Grenades on the killfeed appear as either GRENADE or an explosion/grenade symbol, ill rewatch the video(s) and look for any indication that HG is something other than a Hand Grenade [[User:WhatARandomer|WhatARandomer]] 12:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Updated the page with weapons seen in the new MP trailer. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 19:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

==Games in Steven Speilberg category?==
Should we put all of the MoH games into the Steven Speilberg category as he's the creator of the series? - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 23:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Well are there any credits for Speilberg having a hand in THIS Medal of Honor game? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:09, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

:Wikipedia just says that he's the creator of the series, not a designer of the series. - [[User:Kenny99|Kenny99]] 21:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but did he have a hand in this one? Just because he created the series, doesn't mean he's been behind the entire series up to now. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

==Graphical Engine for the game==
I was watching a video on Medal of Honor and it stated that the single-player campaign is using the Unreal 3 Engine and the multiplayer will be using the Frostbite Engine (made famous by Bad Company). Just thought you guys would like to know! [[User:SeanWolf]]

This doesn't make sense. Why make the singleplayer with one engine and use a completely different engine for multiplayer? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

:Old news, buddy. Maybe you should change your username to SeanSlowpoke. I keed, but not much.-protoAuthor 02:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
:Hey dont blame me..i just found out about that when i was watching a video about the game. Plus, i usually dont hear about video game news until the day after, so yeah. But still, yeah it doesnt make sense to use two different graphical engines for the game but who knows... [[User:SeanWolf]]

The reason for this is EA: LA are incharge of Singleplayer, and DICE are incharge of multiplayer, both using engines they're familiar with. [[User:WhatARandomer|WhatARandomer]] 08:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

==SR25/M110?==
I found this picture on IGN: http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/37294/medal-of-honor-2010/images/medal-of-honor-20100915112209436.html
Anyone want to confirm or deny? -Chris_Hun7er 2:32, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
:Why yes, yes it is.[[Special:Contributions/99.141.250.128|99.141.250.128]] 01:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
::It looks an M110 SASS. --[[User:Pz.Abt.100|Kilo 1-1]] 16:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
::Could be an SR-25 depending on what year this took place, the M110 might not have been out at the time and it is technically the same weapon system. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 14:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

==Getting screenshots==
Hey, anyone figure out how to take screenshots in the PC version? I'm trying to get pics to replace the existing ones for the AK-47, SVD clone, and the M21. Print-screen doesn't seem to be the right key. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 02:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Download "FRAPS" or some similar utility, and use that instead. Print Screen doesn't generally work in games I'm afraid.--[[Special:Contributions/94.168.169.251|94.168.169.251]] 05:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the hint. I just uploaded a few of my own screens for the PKM and the NDM-86. EDIT: Am I the only BETA player here that's updating this page? There's gotta be at least thousands of players out there in the beta right now. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 23:42, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Didnt the beta end?

It should ending some time today. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 17:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Hashiriya if you plan on getting it for computer and want screen shots you should no that xfire (find it at www.xfire.com) allows you to talk and chat ingame and also take screenshots and videoos. its free and easy. it doesnt take much memory and if you want to try it as i said tis free and i believe its scroll lock x or s to take a screen pic.

AK-47 in Campaign seems to be AMD-65 ==

Hey, If you watch this guy's single player videos he eventually picks up and AK in vid 12[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKPRn75kD-Y&feature=watch_response]. This 'AK-47' is an AMD-65. Take a look.

: Holeeey amazing sh*t. Random AK variants under AK47 ? This game is awesome.

The AKs in single-player are a mish-mash of actual AK parts. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 19:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

== SR25? ==

I found this in the 'Friends from afar' tralier, is this the SR25? -GunGunGun

http://www.imfdb.org/images/0/0a/SR25%3F.jpg

I think it's M110 but because the M110 entered service in 2008 and the game take place in 2001-2002, it's supposed to be the SR-25 with desert camouflage. If you didn't noticed, someone else posted a comment about it, but it's OK. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 16:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh its OK is it? thanks! your very kind! --[[User:GunGunGun|GunGunGun]] 18:56, 11 October 2010 (GMT)

Well when does this game take place? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 18:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The game takes place between 2001 and 2002; during the first days of the invasion to Afghanistan and during "Operation Anaconda" when the United States, NATO, non NATO and allied Afghanistan forces worked together to take down the Taliban and Al-Qaeda terror organizations and to kill/capture Osama Bin-Laden... This operation was mainly based around special operations units which we are going to play them in-game (Rangers, Special Forces and if I'm not mistaken, Navy SEALs too). As I said about the weapon: Because the game takes place around 2001 and/or 2002, it is supposed to be the SR-25 as it was issued since the '90 and the M110 only has been issued from 2008. But, because it's a game, the developers don't really mind about the '''exact''' weapons that was supposed to be used during this events. Let's take for example the MP7A1: It has been produced from 2001, but it wasn't issued in the United States nor other countries during the events of the game, but the way I see it, because it was produced from 2001 and the game takes place in 2001, so the developers decided to put the MP7A1 in even so it's not issued. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 21:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

: Yeah- But still better than Black Ops with 2001 FAMAS in Vietnam.

::The MP7 may not have been issued during that timeframe but that doesn't mean it wasn't specifically requested by SOCOM units. [[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 02:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Well by all technicality, the M110 and the SR-25 are the exact same rifle with very minor differences [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 21:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

My understanding that the games events take place during the first three years of the war.--[[Special:Contributions/81.96.200.164|81.96.200.164]] 01:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

So technically unless it is stated, this rifle should be called the SR-25 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Mechanically, I don't think there's ''any'' difference between the SR25 and M110. The M110 is only distinguished by its URX rail system (which newer SR25s come with today anyway) and it's length-of-pull adjustable stock (which the rifle in-game doesn't have). I agree, it should be listed as an SR25. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

== Switching modes of fire ==

Watched the First Hour on Gametrailers.com and it showed you can changed the fire mode for a weapon from semi to full auto on the fly. This is awesome [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 03:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep. All you do is simply tap the Right D-pad key and watch the bullet icon change. I did this accidentally to myself and wondered why my M4 had gone from rock n' roll to single shot. [[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 03:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It's awesome. I used to lightly pull the trigger for accurate single shot and now I dont have to anymore. It feels like Rainbow Six's system. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 03:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

No fire selector on AKs, though (at least in SP). :( [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

== M203, AK, and Dragunov ==
*The M203 in-game is actually a Cobray CM203 distinguished by it's square trigger guard. It also seems to have an M16-type safety/selector lever on the left side of the receiver (scratches head at that one).
*There are at least two other AKs appearing in SP and both appear to be AMD-65s, but one is a basic run of the mill AMD while the other seems to have a perforated handguard of some kind.
*I don't know about MP (haven't played yet), but the Dragunov appearing in SP is most definitely the 7.62x54R version by the magazine.

[[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 11:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

:Very much disappointed at the M203 performance, at least in SP, the range is awful and you have to hit a taliban to do some damage. MP (open beta) the range is better but grenades etc. are extremely low powered. Bullet penetration was pretty good, .223 didn't do much and 7.62x39 & x51 got kills through the Chinook wreck easy, recoil was perfect and you'd get more points playing the objective over camping for kills. MP was good and SP pretty much sucked, the only good parts in SP included a SOFLAM and some serious CAS. Chopper gunner mission was nice but the tactical situation was a bit weird, too close to the enemy for comfort. You shouldn't need to be hovering within 50 meters over the enemy when gunning in an Apache. --[[User:JEESUS|JEESUS]] 03:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

We've already ID'd the MP Dragunov as a Norinco clone in .308, but thanks for the info on the SP one. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 14:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey werc, why does the SP image for the G3 say 30+1 rounds in the weapon?--[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 14:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

One in the chamber, I'd assume --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 17:57, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

That wasn't my point >_>. Why does it even have anything MORE than 20+1? --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 18:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe to balance out the power they put a 20 round mag. like MW2 with the SCAR-H in MP or the FAL. or the G3 in CoD4.

Well we have a SIG 226 with 18 rounds (probably 17 round mecgar mags), a glock 19, and a m92FS in single player, the glock and beretta both at 15, whats multiplayer got, 12 round everything for "balance" since theyre so worried about people wrecking with a pistol or some crap?

Going off topic for a bit. My impressions from SP in the PS3 version with CQB controls:

1. PS3 controller sticks don't provide the resistance I'm used to.

2. Pistols fire really fast and reload real fast.

3. Lean in a console game? Interesting. I can't wait to try it for PC.

4. You can knife real fast. You can stab someone AT LEAST 3 times before they hit the ground.

--[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 20:31, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Dang, fail on my part, can't believe I forgot the G3 had a 20 round capacity >:O --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 07:59, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I just played the PC version last night. A friend of mine had it and let me borrow it so I've only played the single player but not multiplayer. I finished it in 4 hours dying 8 times, 6 of them at the last section of the final mission thanks to endlessly respawning enemies. Honestly, I cleared out this little niche behind a rock, then got hit from behind. Turns out that the spot I had moved to was a place where they enemies would keep respawning. I saw one respawning as I blew the head off (literally) of another guy with a shotgun. And they need to do something about the enemy skins, as they blend into the background. Not on purpose like camouflage, more like they did it by accident by making a guy's shirt have the same texture as a rock, even though the colors are completely different. A.I. was a joke. Instead of having the allies dynamically find cover based on the terrain and location of bad guys (like Modern Warfare/MW2 and Mass Effect 2), they went to pre-chosen positions and got in your way. And I know why they let you have the 203 only on the last mission, it's caused it sucked. They apparently used bunny farts as propellant. Also, who the hell maps the switch from rifle to 203 on the left arrow key. THE LEFT ARROW KEY!! For console players that's like mapping it to a second controller. Had to map the secondary button slot to v cause I was afraid it would mess something up if I changed the primary button. And they mapped the selector to the middle mouse button and melee to x rather than, you know, the other way around. I also hate that pushing left ctrl while crouching gets you to stand up instead of going prone which you accomplish by HOLDING DOWN left ctrl. And you pickup guns by HOLDING DOWN 'f', instead of making f context sensitive. And a Ranger can carry up to 20 grenades, yet a special forces operator can only carry 3. Mind you, there was no ballistics for them so where they landed was a random guess, making them useless even without factoring the length of time it takes to throw one and it's fuse length (both unnecessarily long). The game had absoloutley no ballistics, point at a Target 1000 meters away with a .50 cal and they die without needing to adjust for distance, even when your elevation is below them, only need to account for bullet travel time which seemed arbitrary to me. Even with no ballistics, you would think the first shot would go on target, even when firing on full auto. Nope. The helicopter segment had a few interesting parts, mostly the TADS system and the Hunter Killer Mode, while the ATV section was a joke. It felt like I was riding a hovercraft over a beach instead of a four-wheeler over rough terrain. Also, the other gimmick they had was sliding to cover which I did not use at all, since it would require holding down Shift+W+Left Ctrl. I have a feeling someone spent 30 seconds figuring out where to map the buttons to and then left. At least they had the option to have sights on a toggle or switch, and leaning is mapped to 'q' and 'e' so they didn't mess that up. Anyways, in SP there were only 2 memorable points, the ending of the first Ranger mission (of which there are only two), and at the ending of the game. Overall, a very poor SP experience that did not make me want to purchase it. Sorry if I ranted for a bit, but I was looking forward to this game. Feel free to delete this part if you guys think it doesn't belong here or to move it somewhere else. --[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 20:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

== Page Split ==
Having played quite a bit of both campaign and multiplayer, I'm going to suggest we make two seperate articles for this game, as it it pretty much two different games bundled onto one disc. There are so many differences, including the weapons, correctness of the weapons, reloads, attachments, and overall realism that they really need to be split up. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:53, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

: Current stance is just OK. Having SP and MP category in each weap seems liek good solution :) And two pages would be pretty messy.

== MoH uses China Airsoft Aimpoint ==

Anyone notice - while the original Swedish Aimpoint only has a red dot in various brightness settings on a Red dot, the one used in Medal of Honor are clearly a China Clone with Red and Green Dot.

: Well, still better than Black Ops with its Romanian AK´s in hands of both Vietcong and Russian army or FAMAS from 2001 in Vietnam.
::They model the guns pretty much off of just airsoft guns. They buy the expensive ones in which I still don't understand why they don't just buy real ones,Alot of times the airsoft guns are the same price as the real ons.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 17:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

== SAW ==
Is that a magazine well beneath the ammo belt on the SAW in those pics? Wouldn't that make it an M249 rather than a Mark 46? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 03:24, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

== M60E3 or M60E4? ==

Hello, everyone!
Just curiosity: why is it a M60E3, not an E4?
Thanks!

==Some corrections==
I've noticed the page has a few guns misidentified, some possibily due to anonymous users making all-wise changes. The SIG P226 used by Rabbit is the newer model P226R, you can see the rail under the frame. The MK 46 is an M249 like it's identified in SP, the magazine well under the belt feed is the indicator, as the MK 46 isn't fed by box magazines. The M60E3 appears to be an M60E4, the barrel is rather short, and it has the rail and removeable foregrip, so I believe it's the M60E4/Mk. 43 Mod 1. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
:And some dumbass comments here and there. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winchester]]
The Glock is a 17, not a 19. The picture needs to be changed but I don't know how.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 17:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
::It is a Glock 19, as the magazine capacity is only 15 rounds, which is the standard (flush) magazine capacity for a Glock 19. Additionally, Glock 19s are commonly carried by AFO personnel. They quite often receive non-standard weaponry (such as the HK-416 and others such weapons) because it is more important that what they have work under the most extreme conditions and due to their elite status, they are given more leeway in their loadouts. Look closly next time you see some SOF personnel in the media or whereever you might catch a glimpse (espiecially SFOD-D) and you will see they are packing more unique equipment then your normal soldier or Marine, including Glocks.[[User:SAWGunner89|SAWGunner89]] 23:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
:: YOu are correct. I just examined the screen shots in the article and that is a Glock 17, however, the mag capacity is still that of a Glock 19. Wierd that they would go through the trouble of doing a decent model of the firearm and then screw up on the mag capacity, but I guess it is just bad research. I added a small section stating a boiled down version of what I stated here in the article so that it may be noted.[[User:SAWGunner89|SAWGunner89]] 23:53, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

How is it not a Glock 22 then? I've seen them with tan frames...

== Mk.18 variant ==

The Mk.18 variant in the game is actually a Mod.1. You can tell by the free-floating rails and the forward, folding BUIS. This is indicative of the Mod.1 variant, as it does not have the front sight mounted on the gas block.[[User:SAWGunner89|SAWGunner89]] 23:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not so sure; the RIS looks like the normal KAC RIS used on the Mod.0, and aftermarket gasblocks with integrated folding iron sights aren't exactly rare.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 17:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Nope, it has a KAC RIS, making it a Mod ''0''. The FSB is just replaced by a low-profile gas block which can be seen in-game by dropping the weapon and taking a close look at it. The BUIS is mounted on the RIS. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 20:03, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
: More specifically, it looks like the gas block is one of [http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=sb105c&cat=155&page=1&search=&since=&status= these], or something similar.[[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 15:25, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

An interesting little tidbit I've noticed regarding Rabbit's Mark 18 and M4. When viewed in his hands during use, both have the same gas block and rail-mounted front BUIS. When dropped and looked at on the ground, the Mark 18 retains these modifications. But when you drop the M4, the gas block and BUIS are replaced with a standard FSB. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== Got a copy of this on the cheap, and noticing silliness... ==

For a start, the PKM has a dust cover that moves but has nothing underneath it; no ejection port, just the side of the gun. But more obviously, if you've got this, play the mission with the AC130 Reaper 31 in it and watch Reaper carefully after it completes it's run. The AC-130 model is clearly only a few hundred yards from the player and about the size of a car. Yay, air support from toy planes! [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 15:04, 9 March 2011 (MSK)

== Multiplayer guns ==

What guns in this game are multiplayer only? I know the P90 is one, but are there any others? - [[User:1morey]] May 2, 2011 8:46 PM (EST)

M16A4, F2000/GL1, RPK, TOZ-194, M21, NDM-86, M24, SV-98, AT4, RPG-7, GP-25, MP-443, C4, and IED are MP only. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 14:19, 8 May 2011 (CDT)

Actually, the RPG-7 is in the singleplayer (It is the very first level that was daylight, the one where you used that scope thing to target the tanks and vehicles.), the GP-25 I swore I saw on an AK on one occasion, and C4 I think is used in the campaign. - [[User:1morey]] May 8, 2011 6:23 PM

:No, the GP-25 is MP only. Believe me, I play SP religiously. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:32, 26 June 2011 (CDT)

== The SAW is not a Mark 46! ==
Look beneath the ammo belt, you can clearly see a magazine well for inserting M16 magazines. The Mark 46 does ''not'' have this magazine well! This is an M249E3 paratrooper model with a fixed buttstock. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 02:00, 13 June 2011 (CDT)

:So it is, nice catch :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:35, 13 June 2011 (CDT)

::An ''old'' catch, too. It had been changed from Mark 46 to M249 a while back, but I checked the page for something that day and noticed it had been reverted back to Mark 46. My guess is that somebody changed it going by the short barrel, rail system (which is of the type used on the Mark 46), and fixed buttstock, a combination which understandably makes it look like a Mark 46 to the untrained eye. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:30, 26 June 2011 (CDT)

== Please help with these weapons! ==

I need help with these guns:
[[image:MOH2010-unknown1.jpg|500px|thumb|none|Seen in SP mounted on several tanks.]]
[[image:MOH2010-unknown2.jpg|500px|thumb|none|Multiplayer reward for killing with pistols.]]
Whoever you are, thank you in advance! - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 16:15, 15 June 2011 (CDT)

The top one is a DShK in an anti-aircraft mount:

[[Image:DShKM-vehicle-mount.jpg|thumb|none|400px|DShKM heavy machine gun in standard vehicle mounting on a Romanian TR-85 main battle tank - 12.7x108mm]]

I don't know about the second, but this page also needs to have the M230 chain guns on the Apaches added. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 23:32, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

== Sequel on the way ==

:So a sequel is coming out for Medal of Honor what guns do you guy think will be in it? --[[User:GVK2009|GVK2009]] 22:19, 16 June 2011 (CDT)GVK2009
::Probably the same more or less with a few additions. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:23, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

== ??? ==

[[image:MOH2010-Mortar-1.jpg|600px|thumb|none|?]]
It's missing a baseplate. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 14:03, 7 November 2011 (CST)
[[image:MOH2010-BTR.jpg|600px|thumb|none|80 or 90 ?]]
Help would be appreciated. - bozito
:Some sort of BTR. But it appears that BTR-60s, 70's and 80's all carried KPVT 14.5mm machine guns main gun and a PKT secondary gun. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 14:03, 7 November 2011 (CST)
[[image:MOH2010-GAU.jpg|600px|thumb|none|]]
Plus, I am not sure about the GAU-8. The player can "use" it, but it is never seen on-screen.
:You see the A-10s fly over before you enter the building you attack the control tower from. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:39, 8 November 2011 (CST)
[[image:MOH2010-AA.jpg|600px|thumb|none|?]]
:[[ZU-23-2]]. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:39, 8 November 2011 (CST)
----
Here is a better pic of that unknown BTR.
[[image:MOH2010-BTR-2.jpg|600px|thumb|none|]]
:Based on the location of the doors, I'll say BTR-60. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 15:01, 9 November 2011 (CST)
+ can anyone tell me what the hell is mounted on the top of the Bradley?
:25mm M242 Bushmaster chain gun, M240C coax, TOW missiles --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 15:01, 9 November 2011 (CST)
--[[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 05:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

ANother mortar from the MP
[[image:MOH2010-Mortar2.jpg|600px|thumb|none|?]]
bozito

:Looks like a 60mm to me. That'd make it an M224. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 14:46, 9 November 2011 (CST)
::It looks a bit big for 60mm. Plus, the M224 has that "grip" near the base. M29 81mm mortar? --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 15:09, 9 November 2011 (CST)
:::The grip is IIRC the firing handle and incorporates the trigger. This looks more like an M29 or even an M2. Could you get an image of the baseplate so we can see the shape? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:56, 3 December 2011 (CST)
[[image:MOH2010-baseplate.jpg|600px|thumb|none|]]

== That weird SAW again ==

[[Image:LOLWUTOMG.JPG|thumb|none|600px|]]

This is the same Mk 46 Mod 0 / SAW hybrid that's in BF3 and MW3. I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually a real thing. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:46, 21 November 2011 (CST)
:I think none of them are hybrids. They are let's say 90% SAWs and 10% Mk46s. If I am correct, the Mk46's handguard can be installed on an M249, but adding a STANAG well on an Mk46 would be much harder.
:Take a look at the SCAR-L in [[Alpha Protocol]]; it has ejection port cover and HK-style selector pictographs, but is not a SCAR/AR-15/HK416 hybrid. Or we could say that almost every gun in [[Soldier of Fortune: Payback]] is a hybrid of two or even more guns mixed together. Video games like to "combine" two or more guns to get more cooler designs. Rarely even movies do. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 02:38, 21 November 2011 (CST)
::Yeah, I wouldn't find it odd if ''only'' MW3 had done it, but BF3 and MoH are rather less about the cool fantasy guns and more about things that actually exist somewhere. And for this same odd variant to turn up in three different games leaves me wondering if there aren't actual SAWs with Mk46 handguards out there, and if so, if this version has a name / designation of its own. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:44, 21 November 2011 (CST)
:::The results for Googling up "M249 SAW with Mk46 handguard" are airsoft guns. It is possible that the devs used airsoft guns to model their weapons. On the other hand, I think the MoH team was working with the most reliable military advisors and war veterans, and if they were cool with this SAW, so should we. Some games show the M4 with non-stepped a barrel (Hitman, Kane & Lynch, even MoH). A SAW with an Mk46/48 handguard is the same. (And the SAW in MoH even has a carry handle. Who the hell would install a carry handle onto his Mk46?) - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 03:02, 21 November 2011 (CST)
:::::The Mod 1 variants of both the Mark 46 and Mark 48 actually ''do'' have carry handles. [http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF055&gid=FNG008] [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 18:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)
::::I know, I could accept if it wasn't real (and that the BF3 team might have got the idea from the MoH dev team, so it's not that odd in those two). It's just particularly odd for two rival franchises to invent the same hybrid gun, like if I saw the same seemingly made-up animal in two completely seperate games I'd wonder if it wasn't just something real I wasn't familiar with. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:11, 21 November 2011 (CST)
:::::As an airsofter, as far as I know any airsoft gun listed as a Mk 46 is actually the MOH/BF3 M249, as they have carry handles and mag wells. Putting a Mk 46 rail system on an M249E2 isn't any different than putting a KAC rail system on an M4A1, that's just seen as normal. Rail systems are rail systems, it's just an aftermarket part, not a hybrid. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 22:59, 21 November 2011 (CST)
::::::Yeah, I'm with Alex here. There isn't anything weird or "hybrid" about this SAW, it's just an M249 para model with a Mark 46 rail system. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 09:00, 22 November 2011 (CST)
:::::::That is something weird about it. What I'm asking is if it's a real variant of some kind with an actual name or just an "X with a Y" frankengun. Both the others are actual hybrids with multiple features from both weapons; eg the one in BF3 also has a short barrel (which would make it a para version) and a full stock (which would make it a Mk 46 with the short barrel) but a STANAG magwell (which makes it, um, nothing). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:10, 22 November 2011 (CST)
::::::::The Mark 46 has a short barrel as standard and an M249 Para with a fixed stock is just an M249 Para with a fixed stock. The mixing and matching of some components doesn't change anything. The only way it could be a true hybrid is if the receiver lacked a magazine well and had a vehicle mounting lug (though in that case one could argue it's just a mis-calibered Mark 48) or vice versa, since both the mag well and lug are removed from the receiver of a Mark 46 to reduce weight. This is effectively just an M249 Para standing in for a Mark 46. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 09:39, 22 November 2011 (CST)
:::::::::You misread: with a stock ''and'' a short barrel it would make it a Mk 46 in terms of real-life configurations, since the Para SAW doesn't have a fixed stock (that's part of what makes it a Para SAW; you might as well say it's an M249-E2 with a short barrel even though one of the distinctive features of the M249-E2 is that it ''doesn't'' have a short barrel). What makes it a hybrid is that it has a series of features which are distinctive of multiple ''different'' versions of the weapon.
::::::::::No, I read it right, you just aren't getting what I'm saying. ''Lacking a magazine well and vehicle mounting lug'' makes it a Mark 46 in terms of real life configuration, since stocks and barrels can be swapped out between different Minimi/M249 variants. The Minimi isn't like the AR-15 platform where doing something as simple as changing out a barrel with one that's longer or shorter makes it analogous to one of a different model. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:34, 22 November 2011 (CST)
:::::::::::I'm not buying that. You can't say "this is a Mk 46 Mod 0 / Para SAW with some other bits and pieces from other variants thrown on" and then argue this does ''not'' make the configuration a hybrid in the truest sense of the term. Anyway, this isn't particularly relevant. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:01, 22 November 2011 (CST)

:::::::::This has got ridiculously sidetracked. What I want to know is if this setup (Mk46 rails, full stock, STANAG magwell) is a '''real configuration of the weapon''' with an actual name (like, say, "Para" being the name for a short-barrel version with a collapsable stock) or just a made-up one. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:48, 22 November 2011 (CST)
::::::::::In a broad sense, yeah, just made up. An M249 Para with a fixed stock and rail system to make it look like a Mark 46. Same principle as dressing up an FN MAG to look like an M240 or a Daewoo K3 to look like an M249. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 10:34, 22 November 2011 (CST)
:::::::::::So, just an odd coincidence / devs copying each other? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 12:01, 22 November 2011 (CST)
::::::::::::Most likely they all wanted the most recent version of the M249, which is the Mk 46, but made the mistake of modeling them after airsoft "Mk 46"s, which are, just like these, still M249s. That's my guess. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:07, 22 November 2011 (CST)

Look what I found.

[[Image:Airsoft CA MK46SPW Cc.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

I guess that settles it, the M249 Para with Mk 46 bits is called an ''airsoft gun''. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 16:12, 22 November 2011 (CST)
:Ta Daaaa! [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:30, 22 November 2011 (CST)
::Yeah, save for the Crane stock, that's exactly what we have here. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 17:31, 30 November 2011 (CST)

== G3A3 ==

The receiver of the G3A3 says: "Kal. .308". Is that correct? I mean, I thought HK uses the "7.62x51mm" marking on their guns. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 13:28, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:Civilian G3 variant maybe? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 13:57, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:Where on the reciver did it state the caliber? I'm asking because G3 rifles do not have caliber markings on the side of the weapon. I'm currently looking at both German and Greek manufactured models. Most European firearms would be marked 7.62(at minimum) someplace not the american .308 markings.[[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 14:47, 30 November 2011 (CST)

::[[image:MOH2010-G3Rec.jpg|600px|thumb|none|Here]]
::--[[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:54, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:::Quickly checking HKpro indicates that the reciver should be marked "Cal 7.62X51" on a properly marked G3A3. This seems to confirm that they used a civilian copy as the model. [[User:Rockwolf66|Rockwolf66]] 14:59, 30 November 2011 (CST)

::::So maybe they used an American civilian variant (maybe got it from a film armorer) to model it? At least they knew that it should have a mag release paddle. --[[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 15:31, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:::::Well it says SACO too, and a quick seach shows that SACO is an American importer of HK41s. So it's a proper G3A3, but with HK41 trademarks. Props to DICE for adding the mag release :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:41, 30 November 2011 (CST)

::::::Not DICE, Danger Close. Dice did the multiplayer only.-protoAuthor 23:03, 30 November 2011 (CST)

:::::::Oops, right, forgot :/ [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:43, 1 December 2011 (CST)

::::::::You forgot that SP and MP had different engines? :P --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:15, 2 December 2011 (CST)

:::::::::In the moment of writing that, I guess I did. I think I played something like two hours of MP though, it's really just a singleplayer game to me :P [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:36, 2 December 2011 (CST)

Okay, so I managed to unlock the G3 in the MP finally. (Damn, I hate sniping!) You can see on the page that it lacks the mag-release paddle, but has a SEF trigger group. I'm not really sure how to call it, as the world-model and class icons have the paddle correctly, but the receiver markings say "HK 91". I could be wrong, but I think the trigger groups are interchangeable, so it could be a HK91A2 with SEF trigger group. The world-model and class icons are G3s, so it could look weird that the 1stPer and 3rdPer models are listed separately. Help would be appreciated. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 12:48, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== AK47 ==

Sorry, but how is the AK in the game an AKM? It has the stock and barrel of an AK47. so how is it an AKM? --Gunner5

:I presume it's labeled going by the receiver, but someone more familiar with the AK will have to confirm. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 21:08, 30 November 2011 (CST)

::Yes, check the receiver. AK-47 should have milled one and AKM should have stamped one[http://www.ultimak.com/AKReceiverID.htm] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:22, 2 December 2011 (CST)

== Small fixes ==
Just went over the page and made some spelling and other fixes. The EOTech in the game was identified as a 556, but this is wrong. The model used is a 552. Also fixed some incorrect capitalization (every instance of the word "holographic" was capitalized when it shouldn't be) and removed the incorrect notation about the MP7A1 in the SP campaign being full-auto only (it most definitely isn't). [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:45, 1 December 2011 (CST)
:With the MP7 I meant that the selector stays on auto all the time. Looks like I had some problems expressing myself. :) --[[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 00:22, 2 December 2011 (CST)

== Bradley ?! ==

[[Image:MOH2010-M240C-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|]]
What the hell is the gun on the top? - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 08:46, 3 December 2011 (CST)
:I believe it's supposed to be an M2 Browning. All the armour in Bad Company used a similar weird little RWS, even Russian and MEC vehicles.
:[[Image:BFBC1-Shipunov-3.jpg|thumb|none|600px]] [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 08:52, 3 December 2011 (CST)
::Yeah, the Browning was on my mind too. I will get some other, detailed caps and upload them. --[[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 09:46, 3 December 2011 (CST)

== Hybrid AK ==

Should we classify the AK's as hybrid AK's? the reason is because they are all combos of different AK's.--gunner5

== M16A4 or M16A3 or R0901 ==

According to Colt, the full-auto M16A4 is the R0901 or Model 901 or M901 or M16A3. The A4 should be changed to one of these, because according to the rules. we should name weapons based on how they look or behave, not how the creators call them. What do you think? - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 13:16, 7 January 2012 (CST)

:I believe the policy is never to identiy guns as M16A3s, as they are pretty much allways intended to be M16A2s or A4s (there are two different guns both designated the A3, one with A2 sights and the other with a flattop) and are just depicted with the wrong firing mode. Also the US army M16A4 is designated the Model 945, 901 is the export model (don't think there are any differeances, is just a different designation). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:41, 7 January 2012 (CST)
::Yeah, the policy says that about the M16A3, but that is because in movies they all go "rock-n-roll". It think this rule is kinda "stupid". For example in films like [[Far Cry (2009)]] the mercs are using full-auto M16s with flat-tops. IMFDb calls them A4s but how do we know that those are A4s. I mean, is that impossible that mercenaries would use the full-auto M16A3s? (I never understood why would anyone want a gun with a 0-1-3 selector but that is an other question.) Or S.H.I.E.L.D. guards in [[Thor]]. They could also M16A3s. (Of course it is hard to tell if they are not firing them. Obviously in films with US Army those are standing in for the A4s.) Some organizations must use the A3s otherwise Colt would not offer them, right? - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 18:21, 7 January 2012 (CST)
:::I always though (and someone who knows more about this feel free to correct me) that the majority of movie M16A4s were likely to be a civilian semi automatic rifle with the lower receiver either modified to full automatic or the entire lower swapped for a full auto one. Bear in mind, the M16A3 is only used by the US Navy, and limited use at that, so it is pretty unlikely that one is ever used in a film. Sure, in the Marvel universe SHIELD might issue their guards with the M16A3, but it is very unlikely that the actual rifles used were genuine M16A3s. In my opinion it is just easier to call the rifles A2 or A4 rather than guessing as to whether they are an A3. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:47, 7 January 2012 (CST)
::::I think the point that myself and others have been trying to make on this site is, while A3s in real life (movies & TV) are never A3s becuase there are only a few and only SEALs have them (they're other things converted), in games (or anime, etc) they are whatever they're intended to be. In a movie about the Army or Marines we would say "M16A4s converted to full auto, which is inaccurate for real life, as A4s are burst", but in a game, like this, COD4 singleplayer, or BF3, they are actually M16A3s, and we should say "M16A3s, which are inaccurate for real life, as they should be using A4s, which are the same, but are burst". [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:16, 7 January 2012 (CST)

SEALs aren't the only ones that use A3s... The CB Reserve unit a buddy of mine is in are issued A3s. I'd say that the A3 is just Navy specific.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:51, 7 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl

2012-01-05T22:16:36Z

Ranger01: /* TV Show */

==Inspiration==

Has anyone seen the movie this game is based off of?-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 00:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)

:No, I haven't. I didn't even know it was based off of anything. Sounds interesting though, what's the film? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 07:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::This, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(film) [[User:Dongs|Dongs]] 07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Jesus Christ it's boring-S&Wshooter

:I have read "Roadside picnic" (rusgunnut1)

==Arsenal==
Since those who aren't even remotely interested in realistic depictions of weapons in games wouldn't be here, I figure those who are might be interested in this:

There's a mod out there for STALKER called [http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_page=1&thm_id=15469&sec_id=16&offset=-180 'Arsenal']. It adds about 80 new weapon models (no joke), all with good textures, new (mostly accurate) animations, sounds, HUD icons, descriptions in the menu... All properly coded so they have realistic stats. Almost all of the default weapon models are replaced with new (non-mirrored) ones, almost all weapon animations are reworked, so there's no more pointless slide-pulling when you equip pistols, there are different animations for dry and partial reloads, and the depiction of recoil looks a lot better, it's not so rigid now. Finally, many of the game's peculiarities are fixed (the Desert Eagle now fires .50AE, not .45 ACP, for example). All told it makes the game's weaponry ''far'' more authentic. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 13:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
:This mod is incredibly cool, especially if it matter to you to have different versions of the same gun. Aesthetic choices are much expanded, such as different furniture(wood, bakelite, plastic, camo colors etc) for AKs. It gets really cool if you combine it with Oblivion Lost, which has it's own additions(such as MAC 10s, FN P90s, etc). It does take a large number of additional files to get the two mods to work together and work with STALKER. Not to mention, your computer. Anyway, TRY IT!!! --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

Is there a reason all the rifles have left hand ejections for the empty brass?
:In arsenal they don't. Some of the OL stuff does, like the Bizon which is still mirrored. But Arsenal doesn't. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]
:Yes, there is a reason: since the weapons are wielded right handed the brass thus can be seen being ejected. It's simply for the looks and more action feeling. --[[User:Oliphaunt|Oliphaunt]] 16:54, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

I was actually going here to say about the Arsenal Mod, but I see it's known not only in Russia =)
So I wanted to suggest to create a new page specially for АМod because I think that it is good enough for this purpose, but too big to include it in this S.T.A.L.K.E.R. page.
Our "job" is to collect all the guns in movies and games, so I think what the AMod is actually
what we need. Sorry for my english again... --[[User:FAMAS|FAMAS]] 23 October 2010

:I disagree. As much as I like Arsenal, it's a mod and a pretty obscure one at that. While we do have some pages on "mods" (example: [[Insurgency]]), most of those are mods that have gone commercial (like [[Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45]]) or are officially recognized in some way (Insurgency, for instance, is distributed on Steam). I really don't think it's notable enough to justify a presence here. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

:L.U.R.K. was here, Arsenal's for arses.-protoAuthor 20:21, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

==S.T.A.L.K.E.R clear sky and Call of pripyat new weapons ==

I know because the weapons don't really change it wouldn't warrant a new page for all 3 games, but how about a section on this page for the new weapons they have added in both games? while they both feature the same weapons, clear sky added the PKM and call of pripyat (currently unreleased) is adding an automatic version of the armsel striker, and hopefully some more (somewhat doubtful). doing this we may have to change it from "S.T.A.L.K.E.R shadow of chernobyl" to just "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"- 5t3v0

:I was thinking of doing that, though the PKM was actually in STALKER itself before it was in Clear Sky anyway (I've got a preview screenshot showing a PKM on a monopod in Bar) and there's a leaked Beta that apparently featured a usable minigun. I'm not sure about the Striker; given the team, isn't it more likely to be a Saiga-12? [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 04:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::Nope, not the saiga, its the striker [http://cop.stalker-game.com/?page=eliminator]. Don't worry, many stalker fans were dissappointed by the lack of SAIGA. I'm not sure, is the striker semi-automatic only? I heard somewhere on the Forums that its full auto -5t3v0

:::Striker is semi-auto only, it's just sometimes depicted in games as fullauto. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 11:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::::The vulcan does appear in stalker vanilla, I had an enemy at the start of pripyat spawn with one. The Striker is semiautomatic until the appropriate upgrade has be purchased. -Scarecrow

:::::Firstly, Scarecrow is mistaken, because I know without even a shadow of a doubt that there's no "Vulcan" gatling gun in Shadow of Chernobyl (I'm a modder and I've spent countless hours going through the game's files for various reasons, if there was a handheld minigun anywhere in the data, I would know about it).

:::::Secondly, I agree that we should cover all three STALKER games on the one page, since most of the weapons in the first game are used in the subsequent two games, with only minor changes and a couple of additions. The TOZ-34 over/under shotgun, Browning Hi-Power and Beretta 92FS were all in the first game, but the first two only existed in the data and were never actually usable in-game, while the Beretta was extremely rare (it was carried by one character only). The second game, Clear Sky, made full use of all of these guns, and added one new one, the PKM. Finally, the third game, Call of Pripyat, includes all of the weapons from the previous two games and adds one, the Armsel Protecta.

:::::Finally, I've been playing Call of Pripyat all week and I'm fairly sure that the Protecta (named "Eliminator" in-game) is portrayed as fully automatic and doesn't have to be modified as such. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yeah, I agree that this page should be moved to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series" and include all the firearms from Shadow of Chernobyl, Clear Sky, and Call of Pripyat. Redirect terms for the search engine should point to this new page as well, such as the individual episode titles as well as the two different ways of typing "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." (with and without the periods). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::I can confirm the Stiker/Protector shotgun. Very Rare! I took one off a bandit when I wiped out a bandit base in the Jupiter map. It had to be modified by the mechanic for auto fire, but it is very effective in-close for chimeras and bloodsuckers. Can take a SUSAT optic. (Wraith)

:::::I think you have to modify the Protecta to fire in full auto. You can also have it modified to fire a bit faster. Secondly, I think certain versions of STALKER (like, special ones that you had to pre-order or whatever) actually had a Vulcan, but I don't think you can get that version anymore, and if you can... well, I don't know how you did it. Oh, and if you guys do end up creating the pages for the other games, you might want to take screenshots of modification tree... things. Just a suggestion.(Person who frequents this site but doesn't feel like creating an account...)

::::::The version of STALKER that contains a minigun is a leaked beta or alpha (I forget which), not a pre-order version. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 20:18, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

:Having checked up, apparently the textures for the minigun are actually in the released early build that GSC put up for download a while ago, but the model isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:25, 4 May 2011 (CDT)

So, is it time to finally switch the article to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"? And yeah, add weapon categories. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:58, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

:Alright, ya all lazybones, had to do begin the work myself. Certainly it's not perfect, so anyone wants to help? Also, <^ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:35, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

==Clear Sky==
:If someone wants me to I could possibly try and find out the whole weapons list for Clear Sky. I have the Russia only special edition. All I would need to do for that is get a translator, as the whole game is in Russian-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 04:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Clear sky Didn't actually add much. All it added was the PKM and made the unused but fully functional weapons available and the "martha" more promenient- 5t3v0

==Makarov PM==
That ain't a Makarov PM, it's the updated version from the 70s or something, called the Makarov PMM, hence the designation in game. How can you tell? The 12 round capacity(when upgraded), and the use of overpressure rounds. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

:That depends on whether we go by appearances or specifications. I vote appearances, because:

:* It's unlikely that the developers knew (or cared) whether the original PM could use overpressure ammunition (remember, they thought having a Desert Eagle chambered in .45 ACP was an acceptable break from realism)
:* The upgrade system doesn't even have the slightest pretense towards realism. In all cases, the 'extended magazine' upgrades are
just pure fantasy. You pay the technician and *poof*, your gun's magazine holds more bullets despite being ''exactly the same size'' as it was before.

:The gun in the games is visibly a Makarov PM, the Makarov PMM has a quite obviously enlarged grip to accommodate the larger ammo capacity, which the in-game model lacks. :Compare the two pictures below:
[[Image:MakarovPM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PM.]][[Image:Makarov PMM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PMM.]]
:with [http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2030/socpm.jpg this one]. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the Desert Eagle being chambered in .45 was most likely because there werent any other guns chambered in the calibres it used like .357 or .44 in game -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]
:::.45?? Pff, c'mon... There is a Deagle in the game chambered in 9x39!!
::::Ah, you are totally right. I saw the black color, put 2 and 2 together, and got 5. My bad. As for the Eagle, at least the 9x39 was a custom job, nevermind how the bullets fit in the magazine(maybe diagonally?) --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was saying as a gameplay decision. The gun is as rare as it is in the vanilla game, what is the point of adding in a calibre that only one pistol that can only be found in one place (supposibly in 2 places, but the second only gets you a USP 45) its own calibre? -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]

==G36 or G36K?==
At first glance the G36 in the game seems to be the carbine variant, but it's actually just a G36 with an unusually short barrel. You can tell by comparing the number of vents in the handguard.

[[Image:HKG36.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36 has six vents.]]
[[Image:H&K-G36K.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36K has four.]]

[http://dog.fpsbanana.com/ss/srends/21132.jpg The G36 from the game has six vents]

So, yeah. I'll adjust the article as necessary. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 06:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

==TOZ-34==
The article states this doesn't appear in the game, but I'm rather sure you can find it in the Wild Territory as part of a quest for the 'family rifle' which you can get at the bar. It is near the Gordon Freeman corpse, inside of the tan shipping crate near him.

:Are you sure you saw it in the unmodded game? I'm fairly sure the 'family rifle' is just an ordinary side-by-side sawn-off in vanilla, and some mods change it to the TOZ-34. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 03:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope, you only retrieve a side-by-side sawed-off double-barrelled shotgun in the vanilla game for that quest. Really odd since in Western gun parlance such a firearm is not often called a "rifle." If it were something like the gun in the following video though, it would be have been much better suited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0boIqkjrNg

The modded gun is a lot more suitable for the quest giver since he seems to be a big game hunter (or rather, big mutant hunter) and such a firearm would be far more plausible. After all, in most of the other "retrieve the weapon" quests, you normally discover that it's a unique variant that leaves you with the decision to either return it to get your reward, or else use it for yourself.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:Apologies to you and MattyDienhoff, I was not running it unmodded, but with the Zone Reclamation Project per the instruction of a friend as its primary goal is bugfixes. Perhaps the authors considered the choice of weapon to be one of the bugs? Either way, I did find the under-over shotgun for the 'Family Rifle', and it had rather nice damage stats. Thanks for the correction, I forget I'm running a mod usually since its goal is just bugfixes.

== USP- full auto ? ==

In Call Of Pripyat, one of the last modifications you can make to the H&K USP is the addition of a full auto firing mode. I was wondering, if it is possible to do the same in real life and if yes will the firearm be able to handle it ?

It is possible to modify almost any semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic (in fact it can be accidentally done to quite a few). Could the USP handle it? With a few changes, yes.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:21, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

Is it just me or does the usp in call of pripyat appear to be full-sized usp?- speo16

== TV Show ==

Did you hear that the Russians (the developers of the game to be more specific) are making a TV show about these games? I saw it on various gaming sites, and I cannot decide whether it is true or fake :P - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 10:29, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

:The developers of the game aren't Russians, they are Ukrainians - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSC_Game_World GSC Game World] :P
:But yeah, [http://stalker-gsc.ru/index/serial_stalker_stalker_skachat_serial_stalker_smotret_onlajn_vse_serii/0-133 S.T.A.L.K.E.R. TV Series] will be aired in 2011-2012 and [http://stalker-gsc.ru/publ/stalker_video/serial_stalker/trejler_seriala_s_t_a_l_k_e_r/41-1-0-4614 trailer of it] is already out. Among the cast is [http://entertainnow.net/video/person.php?pid=220&nm=Gosha_Kutsenko Gosha Kutsenko] - well known actor in Russia. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:33, 14 September 2011 (CDT)
:P.S. To translate pages, use sites such as [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate] or [http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Babel Fish].

:The TV show is on hold for now, they are currently concentrating on the movie(!) and second game.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:16, 15 September 2011 (CDT)
:: And then the developers have gone out of business. I'm a sad panda. [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 09:58, 5 January 2012 (CST)

Yea, well its not 100% sure, some think its just a PR stunt gone wrong. But even if they did, the devs are apparently still working on the game for little or no pay (this is 100% confirmed). They brought Joe Mullin (their Facebook/ twitter guy) back, so something is going on.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 16:16, 5 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl

2012-01-05T22:16:22Z

Ranger01: /* TV Show */

==Inspiration==

Has anyone seen the movie this game is based off of?-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 00:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)

:No, I haven't. I didn't even know it was based off of anything. Sounds interesting though, what's the film? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 07:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::This, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(film) [[User:Dongs|Dongs]] 07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Jesus Christ it's boring-S&Wshooter

:I have read "Roadside picnic" (rusgunnut1)

==Arsenal==
Since those who aren't even remotely interested in realistic depictions of weapons in games wouldn't be here, I figure those who are might be interested in this:

There's a mod out there for STALKER called [http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_page=1&thm_id=15469&sec_id=16&offset=-180 'Arsenal']. It adds about 80 new weapon models (no joke), all with good textures, new (mostly accurate) animations, sounds, HUD icons, descriptions in the menu... All properly coded so they have realistic stats. Almost all of the default weapon models are replaced with new (non-mirrored) ones, almost all weapon animations are reworked, so there's no more pointless slide-pulling when you equip pistols, there are different animations for dry and partial reloads, and the depiction of recoil looks a lot better, it's not so rigid now. Finally, many of the game's peculiarities are fixed (the Desert Eagle now fires .50AE, not .45 ACP, for example). All told it makes the game's weaponry ''far'' more authentic. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 13:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
:This mod is incredibly cool, especially if it matter to you to have different versions of the same gun. Aesthetic choices are much expanded, such as different furniture(wood, bakelite, plastic, camo colors etc) for AKs. It gets really cool if you combine it with Oblivion Lost, which has it's own additions(such as MAC 10s, FN P90s, etc). It does take a large number of additional files to get the two mods to work together and work with STALKER. Not to mention, your computer. Anyway, TRY IT!!! --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

Is there a reason all the rifles have left hand ejections for the empty brass?
:In arsenal they don't. Some of the OL stuff does, like the Bizon which is still mirrored. But Arsenal doesn't. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]
:Yes, there is a reason: since the weapons are wielded right handed the brass thus can be seen being ejected. It's simply for the looks and more action feeling. --[[User:Oliphaunt|Oliphaunt]] 16:54, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

I was actually going here to say about the Arsenal Mod, but I see it's known not only in Russia =)
So I wanted to suggest to create a new page specially for АМod because I think that it is good enough for this purpose, but too big to include it in this S.T.A.L.K.E.R. page.
Our "job" is to collect all the guns in movies and games, so I think what the AMod is actually
what we need. Sorry for my english again... --[[User:FAMAS|FAMAS]] 23 October 2010

:I disagree. As much as I like Arsenal, it's a mod and a pretty obscure one at that. While we do have some pages on "mods" (example: [[Insurgency]]), most of those are mods that have gone commercial (like [[Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45]]) or are officially recognized in some way (Insurgency, for instance, is distributed on Steam). I really don't think it's notable enough to justify a presence here. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

:L.U.R.K. was here, Arsenal's for arses.-protoAuthor 20:21, 23 October 2011 (CDT)

==S.T.A.L.K.E.R clear sky and Call of pripyat new weapons ==

I know because the weapons don't really change it wouldn't warrant a new page for all 3 games, but how about a section on this page for the new weapons they have added in both games? while they both feature the same weapons, clear sky added the PKM and call of pripyat (currently unreleased) is adding an automatic version of the armsel striker, and hopefully some more (somewhat doubtful). doing this we may have to change it from "S.T.A.L.K.E.R shadow of chernobyl" to just "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"- 5t3v0

:I was thinking of doing that, though the PKM was actually in STALKER itself before it was in Clear Sky anyway (I've got a preview screenshot showing a PKM on a monopod in Bar) and there's a leaked Beta that apparently featured a usable minigun. I'm not sure about the Striker; given the team, isn't it more likely to be a Saiga-12? [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 04:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::Nope, not the saiga, its the striker [http://cop.stalker-game.com/?page=eliminator]. Don't worry, many stalker fans were dissappointed by the lack of SAIGA. I'm not sure, is the striker semi-automatic only? I heard somewhere on the Forums that its full auto -5t3v0

:::Striker is semi-auto only, it's just sometimes depicted in games as fullauto. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 11:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::::The vulcan does appear in stalker vanilla, I had an enemy at the start of pripyat spawn with one. The Striker is semiautomatic until the appropriate upgrade has be purchased. -Scarecrow

:::::Firstly, Scarecrow is mistaken, because I know without even a shadow of a doubt that there's no "Vulcan" gatling gun in Shadow of Chernobyl (I'm a modder and I've spent countless hours going through the game's files for various reasons, if there was a handheld minigun anywhere in the data, I would know about it).

:::::Secondly, I agree that we should cover all three STALKER games on the one page, since most of the weapons in the first game are used in the subsequent two games, with only minor changes and a couple of additions. The TOZ-34 over/under shotgun, Browning Hi-Power and Beretta 92FS were all in the first game, but the first two only existed in the data and were never actually usable in-game, while the Beretta was extremely rare (it was carried by one character only). The second game, Clear Sky, made full use of all of these guns, and added one new one, the PKM. Finally, the third game, Call of Pripyat, includes all of the weapons from the previous two games and adds one, the Armsel Protecta.

:::::Finally, I've been playing Call of Pripyat all week and I'm fairly sure that the Protecta (named "Eliminator" in-game) is portrayed as fully automatic and doesn't have to be modified as such. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yeah, I agree that this page should be moved to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series" and include all the firearms from Shadow of Chernobyl, Clear Sky, and Call of Pripyat. Redirect terms for the search engine should point to this new page as well, such as the individual episode titles as well as the two different ways of typing "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." (with and without the periods). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::I can confirm the Stiker/Protector shotgun. Very Rare! I took one off a bandit when I wiped out a bandit base in the Jupiter map. It had to be modified by the mechanic for auto fire, but it is very effective in-close for chimeras and bloodsuckers. Can take a SUSAT optic. (Wraith)

:::::I think you have to modify the Protecta to fire in full auto. You can also have it modified to fire a bit faster. Secondly, I think certain versions of STALKER (like, special ones that you had to pre-order or whatever) actually had a Vulcan, but I don't think you can get that version anymore, and if you can... well, I don't know how you did it. Oh, and if you guys do end up creating the pages for the other games, you might want to take screenshots of modification tree... things. Just a suggestion.(Person who frequents this site but doesn't feel like creating an account...)

::::::The version of STALKER that contains a minigun is a leaked beta or alpha (I forget which), not a pre-order version. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 20:18, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

:Having checked up, apparently the textures for the minigun are actually in the released early build that GSC put up for download a while ago, but the model isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:25, 4 May 2011 (CDT)

So, is it time to finally switch the article to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"? And yeah, add weapon categories. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:58, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

:Alright, ya all lazybones, had to do begin the work myself. Certainly it's not perfect, so anyone wants to help? Also, <^ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:35, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

==Clear Sky==
:If someone wants me to I could possibly try and find out the whole weapons list for Clear Sky. I have the Russia only special edition. All I would need to do for that is get a translator, as the whole game is in Russian-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 04:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Clear sky Didn't actually add much. All it added was the PKM and made the unused but fully functional weapons available and the "martha" more promenient- 5t3v0

==Makarov PM==
That ain't a Makarov PM, it's the updated version from the 70s or something, called the Makarov PMM, hence the designation in game. How can you tell? The 12 round capacity(when upgraded), and the use of overpressure rounds. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

:That depends on whether we go by appearances or specifications. I vote appearances, because:

:* It's unlikely that the developers knew (or cared) whether the original PM could use overpressure ammunition (remember, they thought having a Desert Eagle chambered in .45 ACP was an acceptable break from realism)
:* The upgrade system doesn't even have the slightest pretense towards realism. In all cases, the 'extended magazine' upgrades are
just pure fantasy. You pay the technician and *poof*, your gun's magazine holds more bullets despite being ''exactly the same size'' as it was before.

:The gun in the games is visibly a Makarov PM, the Makarov PMM has a quite obviously enlarged grip to accommodate the larger ammo capacity, which the in-game model lacks. :Compare the two pictures below:
[[Image:MakarovPM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PM.]][[Image:Makarov PMM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PMM.]]
:with [http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2030/socpm.jpg this one]. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the Desert Eagle being chambered in .45 was most likely because there werent any other guns chambered in the calibres it used like .357 or .44 in game -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]
:::.45?? Pff, c'mon... There is a Deagle in the game chambered in 9x39!!
::::Ah, you are totally right. I saw the black color, put 2 and 2 together, and got 5. My bad. As for the Eagle, at least the 9x39 was a custom job, nevermind how the bullets fit in the magazine(maybe diagonally?) --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was saying as a gameplay decision. The gun is as rare as it is in the vanilla game, what is the point of adding in a calibre that only one pistol that can only be found in one place (supposibly in 2 places, but the second only gets you a USP 45) its own calibre? -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]

==G36 or G36K?==
At first glance the G36 in the game seems to be the carbine variant, but it's actually just a G36 with an unusually short barrel. You can tell by comparing the number of vents in the handguard.

[[Image:HKG36.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36 has six vents.]]
[[Image:H&K-G36K.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36K has four.]]

[http://dog.fpsbanana.com/ss/srends/21132.jpg The G36 from the game has six vents]

So, yeah. I'll adjust the article as necessary. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 06:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

==TOZ-34==
The article states this doesn't appear in the game, but I'm rather sure you can find it in the Wild Territory as part of a quest for the 'family rifle' which you can get at the bar. It is near the Gordon Freeman corpse, inside of the tan shipping crate near him.

:Are you sure you saw it in the unmodded game? I'm fairly sure the 'family rifle' is just an ordinary side-by-side sawn-off in vanilla, and some mods change it to the TOZ-34. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 03:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope, you only retrieve a side-by-side sawed-off double-barrelled shotgun in the vanilla game for that quest. Really odd since in Western gun parlance such a firearm is not often called a "rifle." If it were something like the gun in the following video though, it would be have been much better suited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0boIqkjrNg

The modded gun is a lot more suitable for the quest giver since he seems to be a big game hunter (or rather, big mutant hunter) and such a firearm would be far more plausible. After all, in most of the other "retrieve the weapon" quests, you normally discover that it's a unique variant that leaves you with the decision to either return it to get your reward, or else use it for yourself.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:Apologies to you and MattyDienhoff, I was not running it unmodded, but with the Zone Reclamation Project per the instruction of a friend as its primary goal is bugfixes. Perhaps the authors considered the choice of weapon to be one of the bugs? Either way, I did find the under-over shotgun for the 'Family Rifle', and it had rather nice damage stats. Thanks for the correction, I forget I'm running a mod usually since its goal is just bugfixes.

== USP- full auto ? ==

In Call Of Pripyat, one of the last modifications you can make to the H&K USP is the addition of a full auto firing mode. I was wondering, if it is possible to do the same in real life and if yes will the firearm be able to handle it ?

It is possible to modify almost any semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic (in fact it can be accidentally done to quite a few). Could the USP handle it? With a few changes, yes.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:21, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

Is it just me or does the usp in call of pripyat appear to be full-sized usp?- speo16

== TV Show ==

Did you hear that the Russians (the developers of the game to be more specific) are making a TV show about these games? I saw it on various gaming sites, and I cannot decide whether it is true or fake :P - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 10:29, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

:The developers of the game aren't Russians, they are Ukrainians - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSC_Game_World GSC Game World] :P
:But yeah, [http://stalker-gsc.ru/index/serial_stalker_stalker_skachat_serial_stalker_smotret_onlajn_vse_serii/0-133 S.T.A.L.K.E.R. TV Series] will be aired in 2011-2012 and [http://stalker-gsc.ru/publ/stalker_video/serial_stalker/trejler_seriala_s_t_a_l_k_e_r/41-1-0-4614 trailer of it] is already out. Among the cast is [http://entertainnow.net/video/person.php?pid=220&nm=Gosha_Kutsenko Gosha Kutsenko] - well known actor in Russia. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:33, 14 September 2011 (CDT)
:P.S. To translate pages, use sites such as [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate] or [http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Babel Fish].

:The TV show is on hold for now, they are currently concentrating on the movie(!) and second game.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:16, 15 September 2011 (CDT)
:: And then the developers have gone out of business. I'm a sad panda. [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 09:58, 5 January 2012 (CST)

Yea, well its not 100% sure, some think its just a marketing gimmick gone wrong. But even if they did, the devs are apparently still working on the game for little or no pay (this is 100% confirmed). They brought Joe Mullin (their Facebook/ twitter guy) back, so something is going on.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 16:16, 5 January 2012 (CST)

Talk:Collateral

2011-12-09T08:15:25Z

Ranger01: /* Officer from near the end of the movie */

== Colt 9mm SMG ==

Can't speak to it's use in the US but Mexican tourist police carry them. - Nyles
: They are issued to DEA agents from what I know. Some police stations are issued them as well. -GM

::If you ever find pictures of Department of Energy security teams from immediately after 9/11, you will see quite a few of these in use. As best I know, though, they've mostly replaced their 9mm subguns with M4s, same as most LE tactical units nowadays. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 16:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

==Vincent's Holster==
With many people wondering what Vincent's holster is, I took some shots to help everyone out.
[[Image:Vincent'sHolster.jpg|thumb|none|500px|A zoomed in shot of Vincent's inside the waist holster when he draws it on the robbers.]]
[[Image:Vincent'sRig.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Here's zoomed shots of both his holster and his mag holders.]]
[[Image:CollateralVincent'sHolsterISW.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Vincent's holster when the cab crashes.]]

Hope this helps someone I.D. them. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]

It sure helped me ID that Tom Cruise wore some tight freaking pants!

According to the DVD commentary, Tom Cruise used a serpa holster for the USP. So maybe he used one for the movie as well.

Those mag carriers are nice, Got 3 of them because of this movie and love them.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

What mag carriers are those?

According the the HKPro forums, a member contacted Mick Gould, the firearms instructor for the film, about the holster. The holster he used in training was a example of a Yaqui Slide type holster. But, the holster in the film was custom made, and Cruise kept it after filming. I can add some credit to this, as I've searched through almost every hoslter maker with a website, and found nothing even remotely similar. But, of course, this is the internet, and people can say whatever they want.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:39, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

==The Train Scene==

when the lights come back on after the shootout, vincent, who has lost so much blood that his fine motor skills are beginning to deteriorate, does appear to have a full mag in his holders. when the movie cuts to the mag hitting the floor, even in stadard definition one can see that there are bullets in the mag. i am fairly certain that the cut is not of an empty mag hitting the floor, but vincent has dropped his last full mag and realizes that that he has been beaten. i know that this is a gun info site however i thought showing the correct sequence of events might be of some importance.
::You can see the plastic red follower on the top of the magazine, an obvious indication it is empty. He also searches his belt for a long time to find a spare magazine. You should keep in mind he took the guards 5906 but no spare mags, so he didn't have anything to reload with anyway. I believe Mann commented on this in the DVD commentary but I might have to go back and check. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::''I always thought that Vincent had been going to reload, but dropped his one spare as a result of involuntary loss of control of his support hand, because he looks like he's got something in his hands right before he pitches forward and the camera cuts to the magazine hitting the floor.'' --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 00:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Gunmaster for pointing that out. at the time i wrote my original comment, i was unaware of the red followers as my S&W 1006 has white ones and my 4506 has black followers. looking at the frame and watching the movie again i can see the follower, not a cartridge.

*Originally, in the script, he actually WAS to have another mag, but fumbled. That was changed, though.-protoAuthor 04:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

well if he did fumble on that reload , wouldnt there be two magizines on the floor . the only one that hits looks like the one he had spent .[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

I always thought that Vincent picked up the guards gun cause he lost his in the car crash. when he emptied it in the shootout he instinctively reached for another mag to reload but realized he didnt have mags for that gun. - EVNASH

that is why he took the guards gun, but i think he realised he was wounded, was out of magizines, and gave up--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

It's a little hard to catch, but if you listen to the scene, you can hear the empty magazine hit the floor before just before he reaches for a new one and the scene cuts. So, he does have one more magazine in his holders, and he does fumble the reload, but the armorers for the film left the last mag empty, probably as a safety precaution.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:34, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

That was movie editing, he would have been diving for it if he had one. You can see him check both holders and come up surprised he
didn't have a spare. I've done it myself at the range once. (Same magazine holders too.)--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:05, 3 December 2011 (CST)

== Just bought the movie ==
Man(n), this movie is awesome. -protoAuthor 18:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

== Ruger Mark II ==

The Ruger mark II is used t kill Daniel the club owner. After that it is never seen again, so I'm assuming Vincent put it in his briefcase which Max threw off the bridge, which is why it's never seen again. This became clear when in the train scene Vincent reaches for a magazines off his holders but he is fresh out, if he had his Ruger he could of used that. Also Vincent must of reloaded his Smith & Wesson 5906, so I guess it must use the same ammunition as a USP-45 either that or the security guard must of had spare clips. Could someone please verify this- thank you.
:Well, seeing as the 5906 is a 9mm and the USP45 is a .45, he must have gotten the MAGAZINES (not clips) from the security guard. That's an interesting point about the Ruger, though. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 17:13, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
:He didn't ever reload the S&W. He only fires 1 mag. He didn't take any mags.-protoAuthor 03:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Plus he uses one at Fever and loses the other after the car wreck. You can see it fall off.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that the magazine that drops is a spare magazine. Why would a well trained assassin take someone's gun but not spare ammunition for it just in case? The magazine doesn't look empty that drops and he is shot on the side of the body which his hand he uses to get the spare magazines from is on. Plus the way it is edited makes me think that it slipped out of his hand. He isn't a robot, if he didn't take spares he would know that he doesn't have any spare magazines and would not try to reload. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 20:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

That mag that dropped was from the gun and was empty, also there are alot of people that don't carry a spare magazine and this guard may have been one of those. http://www.kyimports.com/images/smw15rd5906.jpg--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Well Vincent is a bit stupid then, but then again he did get killed by a cab driver lol. That to me is poor editing as well, surely if they would have meant that to be the ejected magazine the shot of it hitting the floor should have come before the one of him reaching for another one. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 00:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

== Final shoot out. ==

In this article, it offers what appears to be a very assured explanation of the final shootout at the end of the movie. It claims that Vincent lost the battle because of his failure to change his killing pattern, blindly following the same method he uses to kill all his targets. I think that this theory is incorrect. Don't you think a hitman as experienced and capable as Vincent would know enough to change his method when it is clear it wouldn't work? While Vincent prefers to shoot his victims with the two-in-the-chest, one-in-the-head method, I'm sure that this tactic is used when he deems it appropriate, and I'm sure a man like Vincent, as intelligent as he is, would not stupidly follow this pattern when it obviously wouldn't work. When a metal door is blocking a clear shot of his target, I'm sure Vincent would know better than to shoot at the door itself, and take advantage of the situation and try to shoot through the windows.

How can a trained hitman like Vincent, lose against Max who has no training what so ever shooting single-handed when Vincent used both hands and fired with a good grip on the gun ? ([[AceV]])

:Lucky shot? But yeah, I get it, that last scene was a bit stupid when clearly a trained professional wouldn't just shoot at a metal door. He should have waited for Max to shoot and empty his gun since Vincent knows Max is an untrained taxi driver. I'm also wondering since Vincent lost his primary weapon, shouldn't he have a back up? He is an ex-military, special forces kind of guy after all. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

well, vincent had (kind of) a back up gun, his ruger markII. It was in the bag, which max threw down the bridge and was crushed by the truck.

Well, Vincent was pretty pissed off at the end, what with being shot in the head and all. That may have clouded his judgment of situation a bit. --[[User:AlkoTanko|AlkoTanko]] 19:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well it pissed me off, Vincent spent the whole movie, killing people, people who have actually at least touched a gun and then all of a sudden an untrained cab driver just comes and kills him, in a a shoot out, not from behind or anything a shoot out, that was dissapointing. ([[AceV]])

Just because he's skilled at killing people doesn't mean Vincent is indestructable, and just because Max never touched a gun doesn't mean he's going to fall over and die at the first stiff breeze to come along. People die all the time and they don't go out in a blaze of glory, it just happens, that's life. Besides, the whole scene at the end was about Vincent not changing his routine. The way he still reaches for magazines even though he's carrying a different weapon, how he goes for the mozambique drill even though there's a big steel train door between him and Max instead of shooting through the glass, etc. For all his talk of improvisation he was too set in his ways and couldn't prepare for a cab driver.

i agree with what the aformentioned says. in stead of adapting to the situation, he went with what he knew. which was the mozambique drill , which turned out to be his downfall in the end.[[simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

It goes along with what Vincent was preaching to Max about earlier; to adapt and evolve to your surroundings. Vincent relied on the Mozambique drill he had perfected, even when he didn't have a clear shot on Max. Max clumsily shot around in multiple directions, increasing his chances to hit his unseen target. Max was able to evolve, Vincent wasn't. There's also some argument to the idea of a chaotic outcome, in that in the movie when Max steps out in front on the train for the last time to face Vincent, he closes his eyes as well as fireing the weapon with no regard for his aim other then the single direction towards Vincent. This is confirmed by the director Mann in the movies commentary, in fact Mann goes on to say the only reason Max succeeds is because the character closes his eyes and throws the dice so to speak. Again going back to the idea of improvisation, Max was willing to take the gamble where as Vincent played the safe bet, and the outcome was in Max's favor.

I'd say Vincent got something called "paralysis by analysis". When you have the mechanics of something well figured out its best to just let it happen. Choking occurs when people who know better start thinking too hard about what they need to do. The added pressure forces your brain into a state called "paralysis by analysis" where the "working memory" part of your brain literally stops working, and the more talented you are the more working memory you have meaning the harder the failure. --[[User:Devang.dn|Devang.dn]] 23:23, 22 March 2011 (CDT)

== Slight comment overhaul ==
I did some work praising the good gun work on the movie, you guys like it?-protoAuthor 04:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No

Ralph pls go.--[[User:AlkoTanko|AlkoTanko]] 11:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice.--[[User:Spikemonkey|Spikemonkey]] 18:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

=="the first gun we see"==
It says "Detective Fanning (Mark Ruffalo) draws the first gun we see, a Smith & Wesson 4516 in .45 ACP". This is not true. the First gun we see is Vincents USP when he pulls it on max after el gordo falls out the window onto the taxi and max freaks out.

== Ruger Mark II ==

Why would the suppressed shots be louder than the guys head hitting the table? In case you didn't know, suppressors were made to make guns quieter. Even in a confined space, a silenced .22 with sub-sonic rounds (that's probably what Vincent would have used anyway, condidering that he's a hitman and cared enough to use a silenced pistol anyways) is ''very'' quiet. I have also shot a silenced .22 (a Ruger 77/22 bolt action, although this was outdoors so maybe the sound didn't travel as much, but that's not the point) and it was very quiet. With a bolt action gun it's even quiter since the bolt doesn't move with each shot. But anyways, the only sound a suppressed Ruger mark II would make (and made in the movie) is a slight click when the action cycles. This would have been quiter than a slamming head, unless he had a really fatty forehead. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 22:34, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
:Also, if the guy's head had hit the table, he would have knocked over glasses, and knocked the table to the ground, which is MUCH louder than any suppressed gunfire.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 22:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

A sub-sonic round in a .22 cal would not be able to cycle the action of a semi-auto, so if he shot more then once he wasnt using sub-sonic, ergo, the bullet would be over the sound barer and create that ol' classic crack of the round discharging. But for movie sake they we're probably just making the gun sound cooler. [[Spades of Columbia]]

:My Ruger Mk II cycles fine with sub-sonic rounds, and I didn't modify it at all. --[[User:Funkychinaman|funkychinaman]] 17:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Making Vincent is so resourceful he has a modded Ruger that has a weaker spring that cycles when shot with sub sonics. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 17:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The point was to explain why the "suppressed" gun was loud, not how it could in some way or another shoot a sub-sonic round. If that was the case a person could easily argue that he was using a 1050fps sub-sonic rd which in some guns can feed without modifacation instead of the normal 710fps round. [[Spades of Columbia]]

Yeah but (and correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't he have shot him from such a close range that the bullet wouldn't have been able to break the sound barrier? Also, I agree with FIVETWOSEVEN on the theory of the modified spring. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 02:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

You've been corrected because your wrong...the powder burn would have been spent by the end of the barrel which uses the twist rate to fully bust its velosity, meaning, its pretty much going its top speed by the end of the barrel and the crack noice is usually signifying the bullet has left the firearm...combined with the noice of a all-steel action clanking together as it cycles the next round make a "Silenced" pistol, not so silent. [[Spades of Columbia]]

What do you mean the "normal" 710 fps round? That would be a CB Long or Short, not a normal round. Also watch this vid of a guy using an integrally suppressed Ruger Mark II with standard velocity ammo; I hear no crack. http://suppressorbuyersguide.com/Articles.php?action=detail&g=content1235373509s
And note that this suppressor is even shorter than the one that Vincent had, making it even less effective and yet still cycling and being very quiet with standard velocity ammo. --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 03:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

You are very much correct sir. You did indeed prove me wrong on that one...but originally i was trying to explain why it might have been so loud in the movie for being silenced...any thoughts on that.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 18:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

probably a decision made by the sound guys. Most people want to hear that distinctive chirp so they know, "oh hey, his gun had a silencer on it." Just playing into the audience's preconceptions.

Question for everyone: take a close look at the picture with the street thug holding the pistol to Max's head. It looks more like a Walther PPK or PPK/s. I own a couple so I'm familiar with the details on the rear of the slide and this photo looks more Walther than SIG. Could be just the way it looks, but it seems that way to me.

Its a SIG, look at the extractor. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 21:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention the cocking serrations. -- K [[Special:Contributions/98.118.59.244|98.118.59.244]] 23:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

What does Vincent finally do with the SIG ? I'm pretty sure he retrieves it from the thug. Does he lose it along with the rest of his belongings ? - Devang

He didn't pick it up, he picked up Max's wallet.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

==Fanning==
How come when Detective Fanning enters Ramon's apartment he draws his gun one handed and clears the entire apartment one handed? Wouldn't most trained cops clear a room with both hands on their weapon?

One word, Preference.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 01:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

He was still undercover at the time, so he didn't want to look like a cop. -[[User:nkingman|nkingman]]

actualy he wasnt undercover . Ramon was an informant . i agree with 527.-[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Hes actually a Detective.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 05:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

My problem is that his finger is on the trigger the whole time. Seems unsafe if you are looking for an informer. --[[User:Westernman1987|Westernman1987]]

No, Fanning's not the informant, he's going to the home of the informant who Vincent just shot and sent through a window. The trigger on the finger thing is a bit unprofessional but in a stress induced situation, you sometimes forget [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Ramon was a Federal witness. It's been a while since I've seen the film but I got the impression that Fanning was an undercover narcotic's officer judging by the fake accent when he is asking for Ramon and his appearance. I assumed he was undercover trying to bust Ramon. Like I said though it's been a while since I watched it. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:12, 3 April 2011 (CDT)

Hes Not a witness, Hes An Informant, Fanning Is LAPD, If He was A Federal witness, He Would Be In Witness Protection With The U.S. Marshals. Fanning When To See His CI (confidential Informant), Saw Signs Of A Strugel, IE The Door Being Left Open, No Answer After Repeted calls of His NAme, And Claered The House. He Should Have Kepy His Finger Off The Triger Since There Were No Signs Of exigent circumstances. and Going In One Handed Could Be One Of Two Things. It Was To Hide The Fact That He Is LAPD And Keep Ramon Safe, As [[User:nkingman|nkingman]] Pointed Out, Or, And This Is More Likely, He Just Pulled, And So He Could Pop His Head, And His Gun Hand Out, And Have Hib Body Remain In Cover, Like He Does In The Second To Last Photo.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Simmons did you even watch the film? Everyone that Vincent killed was a Federal witness for the prosecution. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 18:30, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

I Did Watch The Film, But The Term Federal Is Being Thrown Around To Much. The One Witness I Would Call A Federal Witness Would Be The One At Fever, Because The FBI Was Watching Him. Just Because Your A Witness, Doesnt Mean Your A Federal One. Not To Mention, Fanning Calls Him An Informant.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

They were all witnesses in the same trial. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 20:42, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

Ramon was an informant. Not a witness. The man in fever was a witness. No one said ramon was going to testify.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

YES THEY DID! In the scene where Fanning meets the FBI outside Felix's club he tells them about Ramon and Pedrosa says that's 3 witnesses so far. Just because you don't pay attention doesn't make what you think so. Nothing annoys me more is people who don't pay attention and then try to tell people who did that they are wrong. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:36, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

Fanning isnt involved in that case. Ramon is still fanning CI. Thats what ties him into this case. Hes trying to find out what happened to his CI. I will admit that ramon was also a witness, if he was a federal witness, i dont understand why he and clark were not being watched by the U.S. marshals or the FBI (which i have no clue why there watching witnesses). When fanning went to see him, it wasnt to see him as a witness. It was to see him as his informant.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Yeah but he was still a witness. Fanning looked undercover to me. How many times do you see in films that local cops are investigating criminals who the Feds have as a witness? The Feds weren't watching the guy in club fever they just knew where he hung out. The guy in club Fever was being watched by his own men that's why it took the Feds so long to get on the scene. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 15:52, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

The reason i think he wasnt undercover is because he had to keep ramons identity as a CI intact, and he doesnt change how he looked or anything. Also if hed had his badge. I dont know if he did because he is never really seen drawing it from his waist. So in a way he is undercover. And if you are a federal witness, even if you do NOT go it to witness protection, the Marshals watch you. Now that i think about it, not only was the FBI actually watching felix and doing the right thing, but no branch of law enforcement was watching these witnesses.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

If there had been it would have been a very different film as Tom would have had to kill the Marshals at each hit and word would have gotten out. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 03:50, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

Well he handled the guards at fever very well. Id like to think that a former special forces soldier turned private sector mercinary would be able to handle himself in a situation like that.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Yeah but word would have gotten out about Marshals being killed and the Feds would have secured the guy in Fever a lot sooner I imagine. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 09:21, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

True, But i would imagine that vincent would know that they would be there, and be prepaired to deal with the marshals moving the witnesses. I just would have liked to see how it would go down. your from the UK. What do they do with witnesses?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

No idea. Knowing how screwed up our government is probably just leave them alone until they get murdered. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 11:58, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

That is a great way to deal with witnesses.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Well they dealt with the riots by sitting back and just waiting for people to obey the law again. I feel sorry for the police in my country because no matter what they do they get chastised for it. They shoot a drug dealer who was illegally carrying a handgun and they murdered an innocent man. A guy breaks loose with a shotgun and goes on a killing spree and they aren't using enough force. They are always been called facists by people who don't have a clue about how the world works. I'd love to dump all the people who think the police in my country are corrupt, violent facists in somewhere where the police will kidnap and torture random people at the behest of the dictatorship government and then see what they think of our police. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 05:33, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

It would be great if the righters all wore [[V for Vendetta| the "V" masks]].Do the poliece in the UK carry handguns? Because i know that when on high alert, they jump right to the MP5, and does the UK have a SWAT/HRT?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

The rioters weren't making any political point it was just a bunch of pricks who wanted to kick up a fuss. And we have specialised armed response units that are armed. The normal everyday cop on the street isn't armed. The UK has CO19 which is a specialist armed response unit. Normal everyday people did more to stop the rioters than the police did, but it's not the police's fault really it's the government refusing to allow them to do what was necessary until it was too late. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 05:53, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

Thats the down side to being in law enforcement. If you have to use dealy force, its excesive force, but if the suspect does kill an officer, your not using enough force. The world is such a backwards place. inn the words of [[Jack Nicholson]] as Col. Nathan R. Jessep in [[A Few Good Men]] "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Good quote. It's a shame that Jessop ends up being a bit mental. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 18:26, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

At least he isnt a scientoligest.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Umm, you mean scientoLOGIst, right?... --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 15:16, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

I mean crazy.--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Now ''that''... I can agree on --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 18:26, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

Good man. But what did the rioters want?--[[User:simmons 8492|simmons 8492]]

Some prat got himself shot and some more prats decided that it was a good excuse to go rioting for no obvious reason --[[User:Taurus96|Taurus96]] 08:04, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== hk 45 ==

Where can You find the new pics of tom cruise hk 45?

Its a USP 45, not a HK45, also it looks like any other USP.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 15:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

== Fanning's pistol ==

Fanning is not carrying a S&W 4516 in this movie. If you notice in the first screenshoot of him as he enters the apartment, the frame is contrasted sharply with the slide and guiderod. It has a duller "gray" color. The frame is not stainless, it is anodized alloy. There are no 3rd gen compact 45 guns made by S&W with allow frames other than the TSW and Recon versions (performance center). Fanning's gun doesn't have a rail or a "tactical" or "recon" billboard on the left side of the slide so that rules those out. The shadow of the first screenshot makes the bore look larger than it is but the second screenshot shows it's true size. That is a 9mm bore. Unless someone has some inside knowledge of this film and this is a specially made alloy framed, non-TSW compact 45, it should be changed to a S&W 3913.--[[User:Luckyluciano|Luckyluciano]] 05:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the gun is alloy framed and a non-TSW compact. It could be a 3913, but then it could also be a single stack non-TSW 4013. This verison of the 4013 is identical to the 4516, but in .40S&W and with an alloy frame. Also, Fanning's gun has a larger "beavertail" than what a 3913 would have.

The beavertail could be indicative of a 4013 but that would really depend on the size of the actor's hands since we don't have a plain view side shot of the gun itself. The other thing to note is that the magazines he carries (as seen when they first investigate Ramon's murder and the cab crime scene) have staggered holes in them. The 4013 magazine holes are in a straight vertical line but the 3913 magazines have staggered holes. That might not mean anything as the could easily have a 4013 as a prop gun and magazines from any other gun on his hip. --[[User:Luckyluciano|Luckyluciano]] 14:57, 16 March 2011 (CDT)

== Officer from near the end of the movie ==

We see the picture of the cop, who is an actual LAPD Officer, holding his issue Beretta, but we can see his thumb layered over his dominant hand. Thats just asking for slidebite. It seems like a poor grip for an actual LAPD officer. -MissySummers-

It all varies on the training. Some guns you can do that all day without slide bite.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 23:10, 3 December 2011 (CST)

Fair enough. A friend of mine just took classes to obtain his firearms license and they were teaching cup and saucer method as "the best method to control recoil" as i quote from the teacher. -MissySummers-

:lol. XO - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:22, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Yea, the officer is probably an "old timer", that grip was commonly taught back when revolvers were still standard issue.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 02:15, 9 December 2011 (CST)

Talk:List of gun abbreviations

2011-11-28T12:26:56Z

Ranger01: /* SPORTS */

=Non-English Abbreviations=

I'm glad this page is up and running, but since this is an English wiki, would it be possible to include translations for the non-English abbreviations on this list? I doubt many of us know all the languages enough to decipher the non-English abbreviations mentioned in this list.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

:I also don't know the Russian and Chinese ones and will be putting the English translation of them soon.--[[User:SB2296|SB2296]] 16:11, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

=Discarded Abbreviations=

This will list those discarded abbreviations or those considered inappropriate for posterity or until someone higher up decides they belong anyhow. I contributed one below:

*'''EMAC''': Used to denote any ranged weapon that accelerates its (usually inert and relying solely on its high kinetic energy to deal damage) ammunition via '''E'''lectro'''m'''agnetic '''Ac'''celeration, to distinguish it from weapons that use chemical explosives to propel ammunition as conventional firearms do. Thus, EMAC weapons are not strictly firearms ''per se''. The term is usually associated with railguns and coilguns. Man-portable versions are commonly called EMAC guns, while vehicle-mounted versions are called EMAC cannons. "EMAC Rifle" is technically inappropriate, since this class of ranged weaponry does not require rifling of any sort in its barrel, but is often used to denote any man-portable two-handed EMAC weapon.

I'll admit it was a bit verbose, but EMAC weapons are not fictional anymore--they do exist, albeit in prototypical form, in the US military R&D, and I thought this kind of abbreviation would be a quick way to denote weapons of this type (as well as explaining what they are and how they are different from conventional firearms) in entries on this wiki. Some entries that feature EMAC weapons include [[Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty]], [[Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots]], [[STALKER]], and [[Eraser]]. That's why I thought this abbreviation was important enough to include. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 15:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

*Removed it since this is a list of real appreviations, not ones we feel like making up. As far as I'm aware EMAC isn't a term used to describe magnetic accelerators. Also, the first railgun design was patented over a hundred years ago, the Germans tested a weaponised design in WW2, and any university engineering faculty can build a working railgun. They certainly don't just exist in military R&D (also, the research ones include prototypes by private companies: one's BAE Systems). Really, we need to add a seperate list of gun terminology if we want something like that (which would also let us define terms like clip and chaingun for the non-gunny reader's education), not just try to shoehorn it into a list of abbreviations it doesn't belong in. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:40, 22 April 2011 (CDT)

Sure, if you feel that way. I myself felt that EMAC was a term that could easily encompass the various slugthrowing electromagnetic weaponry on this website, without having to quibble and argue about whether or not the weapon(s) in question are of the railgun or coilgun type. For example, the "Gauss Rifle" in Crysis is modelled like a Railgun, but its name implies it is of the coilgun type (Gauss guns actually use the coilgun principle). Using the EMAC terminology would avert that kind of debate since both Coilguns and Railguns rely on Electromagnetic Acceleration to cause damage. And before you tell me that Particle Beams are Electromagnetic Acceleration weapons too (just using subatomic particles or ions instead of macroscopic projectiles), those count as Directed Energy Weapons and not Kinetic-Energy weapons. I think the admins should determine whether such an article encompassing this kind of general information would belong in the G.I. section. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:27, 24 April 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, but I don't really like the precident of being able to put made-up terms on the page, even with the best of intentions. An article about terms would be a good idea, but it would probably take a lot of writing; I might bring it up on the forum at some stage now I can post there. I could probably port over that list of gun accessories I wrote for TVTropes to here with some work to fix up the tone, too. Hell of a lot of effort that thing was. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:00, 25 April 2011 (CDT)

== PDW ==

I was going to try to add descriptions to some of the terms here, looked at that one, and realise ''I'' don't really know an exact definition for it. As far as I know, the term "PDW" was invented purely to market a version of the MP5K, and doesn't really have any fixed meaning other than "call your SMG this if you want it to sound cool" and some mumbling about proprietary rounds that makes no sense since the original was a 9x19mm Para and the Jatimatic has been marketed as a PDW too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:52, 25 May 2011 (CDT)

== SPORTS ==

I'm a bit curious, what does the SPORTS acronym apply to? I googled it and found it related to clearing a stoppage..? I'm still not quite clear on it. An explanation would be very appreciated. -[[User:Sentient6|Sentient6]] 20:19, 27 November 2011 (CST)

Specifically the AR series rifles, but it actually does work with any rifle that has a removable magazine and a forward assist or (direct) bolt handle (such as AK, M14, etc). Its pretty much the rifle equivalent of TRB (Tap, Rack, Bang).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 06:26, 28 November 2011 (CST)

Talk:Battlefield 3

2011-11-24T06:57:21Z

Ranger01: /* Kaffarov's Private Army */

Talk:Battlefield 3

2011-11-22T08:33:05Z

Ranger01: /* Kaffarov's Private Army */

Talk:Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception

2011-11-03T12:21:54Z

Ranger01: /* Any idea what the pistol in the top left is? */

== Thanks ==

Thanks to whoever corrected me on the ID of the revolver. By the way, (just out of curiosity) where is the cylinder release on that Dan Wesson? --[[User:ColonelTomb|ColonelTomb]] 21:24, 8 July 2011 (CDT)
:In front of the cylinder. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 22:15, 8 July 2011 (CDT)

== Guns Missing that I can see ==

Pistol - Sniper Tau

Appears to be the same as the Wes-44 from previous games, but with a sniper scope fitted.

Sniper rifle - T-Bolt Sniper

Bolt-action Sniper Rifle, 1 shot kill every time regardless of hit location.
http://uncharted.wikia.com/wiki/T-Bolt_Sniper

==Adding Pics==

Also i keep trying to add a image to AKS-74U but i can't because i need more simpler
hints on how to add a image to pages so i need some help on adding images so
i need some guys to tell me how to add an image also displaying a image

== Any idea what the pistol in the top left is? ==

[[Image:Uncharted-Dashboard.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Full HD shot to make it biggar.]]

And yes, I have the ''Valkyria Chronicles'' theme. I'm a sucker for a game about tanks, ok? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:11, 3 November 2011 (CDT)

:Looks like Makarov PM or Walther PP or similar pistol. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:29, 3 November 2011 (CDT)
:''Valkyria Chronicles, heh''

Got another shot of it:

[[Image:Uncharted3-Cutterpistol-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]

It's Cutter's gun. Looks a bit like a Makarov, but there's a control above the trigger that neither a Makarov or a PP / PPK have. Also, as a note of interest, Cutter is voiced by Graham McTavish, who was, of all people, ''Lazarevic'' in the previous game. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:08, 3 November 2011 (CDT)

Walther P5 [[File:P5Wood.jpg|thumb|none|600px]]-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 07:21, 3 November 2011 (CDT)

== OMG! ==

Just wanted to say: this game is AWESOME! The true definition of action game. Compared to it, CoD games are like a day in retirement home :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:16, 3 November 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Battlefield 3

2011-10-29T05:42:16Z

Ranger01: /* Something Odd */

== All weapons in BF3 ==

The list below shows all BF3 weapons that are going to be available either SP or MP.

This list is officially announced by EA, but i'm pretty sure there will be more coming.

NOTE: List has been edited to account for new information (eg: Both M16s and only P90TR) and name corrections (eg: DAO-12 to Striker)

Assault Rifles (Assault)
*M16A3 (US)
*AK-74M (RU)
*HK416
*G3A3
*AN-94
*KH2002
*AEK-971
*F2000
*AS VAL
*M16A4

Carbines (Engineer)
*M4A1 (US)
*AKS-74U (RU)
*G36C
*SCAR-H CQC
*A-91
*SG553
*M4

Machine Guns (Support)
*M27 IAR (US)
*RPK-74M (RU)
*M249E2
*M60
*M240
*6P41
*QYJ 88

Sniper Rifles (Recon)
*Mk.11 Mod.0 (US)
*SVD (RU)
*M40A5
*SV98
*M98B
*M82A3 (not in MP)

Battle Rifles (Recon)
*M39 EMR
*SKS

Sub-Machine Guns (All Kit)
*P90TR
*MP7A1
*UMP45
*PDR
*PP2000

Shotguns (All Kit)
*870 MCS
*M1014
*USAS-12
*Saiga 20K
*Striker

Pistols (All Kit)
*M9 (US)
*MP443 (RU)
*G17
*M-45
*MP412
*T44
*93R
*G18

Underbarrels (Assault)
*M320 with HE/Smoke/Buckshot rounds
*M26 MASS with Buckshot/Flechette/Frag/Slug rounds

Rocket Launchers (Engineer)
*Mk.153 SMAW (US)
*RPG-7 (RU)
*FGM-148 Javelin
*FIM-92 Stinger
*SA-18 IGLA
*AT4

( Source: http://bf3blog.com/2011/08/complete-list-of-battlefield-3-weapons/ ) --Zzang1847 23.09.2011 11.07 (PST)

:This is from a Batlefield 3 fansite and not acctualy offical --[[User:Armyguy277|Armyguy277]] 14:38, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

::This has been discussed before. While it is technically official since the official gaming news sources are also reporting it, but since there aren't any pictures of 'em you have to wait.--[[User:Nomad175|Nomad175]] 15:55, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

:Pages without pictures or info look ugly. The game's out in less than a month, and the Beta's out in a few days, we can wait, but it does mean we get to know what's in the game anyway, even though it's not on the page :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:20, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

::Although there were no pictures, i believe we still can at least put some description and real picture so someone who is actually uploading in-game pictures don't have to worry about putting explanation and finding pictures from the archive, which takes significant amount of time (in terms of AAA games like this).
::P.S) Sorry about this discussion already mentioned before. I thought i could give some help, but perhaps i'm not :( ~ Zzang1847 23.09.2011 8.43 (PST)

:::Building an article is not a race, there is just less than a week for the Beta to roll in, not that much to wait. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:52, 24 September 2011 (CDT)

Looks like it is going to just be Americans, Russians, Generic "Not the Taliban, honest" Middle Eastern Militia and possibly the Iranian army as factions then. Damn. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:28, 24 September 2011 (CDT)

:For SP yeah, but for MP it's been confirmed to be just US and RU. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:46, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

== Faction Specific Weaponry details ==
no need to worry , about faction specific weaponry , reading through some of Alan Kertz earlier posts.He states that the player once leveled up high enough in the class's levels will gain access to the other factions weaponry.

== Gun disparity ==

I have the feeling the M4A1 will be the counterpart to the AKS74U. This is wrong, but every game seems to do it. The M4 has a 14.5 inch barrel and is a standard issue weapon. The AKS74U has an 8.3 inch barrel and is issued to vehicle crews. A better setup would be Mk 18 Mod O (or HK416 D10RS) vs the AKS74U. Also, the M16 and AK74 aren't exactly equal either. Maybe pair up the regular M4A1 or SCAR-L with 14.5 inch barrel (for variety) with the AK74?

Oh and what do you think the US/EU counterparts to the SKS, RPK and AS Val will be? There's no US counterpart cartridge to the 7.62x39 and 9x39 as far as I know.
::There's no val, that's vss

:SKS = Mk.11 = SVD. RPK = M27. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:52, 9 August 2011 (CDT)

Its the asval not vss :S.[[User:lukewilliams010]] 12:14 ,19 august 2011

== PKM\PKP operation ==

I've yet to see a game that properly portraits PKM operation with its 2 level feeding system and non-disintegrating belts. Curious if in BF3 they'll get it right. Doubt it though...

== Optic mounts ==

Optic mounts on all russian weapons are wrong. Basically it's an PSO with optic tube cut off and rail slapped instead of it. Then every Russian scope has its original mount removed so it can be fixed on that picatinny rail. They also didn't bother making [http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/photoshooter/1789/i-2863.jpg proper mount] for PKP and just put rail on top of the receiver lid. I was expecting more attention to details in BF3.

Well the Russian army IS starting to use RIS, just look at the AK-9. [http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-9-e.html] While it does seem a bit sloppy, it can be justified in a way. At least it isn't as bad as that AK-abomination from MW2 and the RPD with rails.

== Beta ==

Does anyone know when the beta is starting? cant wait for it! --[[Special:Contributions/109.78.246.33|109.78.246.33]] 21:34, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Or for that matter, how we can get in on it? [[User:That's One Angry Duck|That's One Angry Duck]]

To get into the Battlefield 3 beta, you need to buy specially-marked versions of the recent Medal Of Honor [[User:SeanWolf]]

Ya i got it, do you know when were getting the codes?--[[User:GunGunGun|GunGunGun]] 02:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I have no clue.[[User:SeanWolf]]

If you registered your Medal of Honor with your EA-Account, you'll get the invitation and infos, as soon as there is something, so far nothing is known.

Wish I could try the beta [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

:Not just you, after the videos they releases pretty much everybody is dying to get hands on the game. [[User:Killerpixel|Killerpixel]] 12:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Beta will be open to everyone. Those who got MoH, will get in earlier.

== AK-something-something ==

Check that dude in the BG. also what I think *might* be a holster, but I'm probably wrong.

http://bf3nation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/bf6.jpg

:It's definitely an AK-series rifle, which one I can't be sure of. If I had to guess however, I'd say either an AK-74, AK-74M, or AK-101. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 08:15, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

:It's a dump bag on his hip. At least that's what I think it is. It definitely isn't a holster though, since most drop leg holsters are strapped to your thigh. Why a guy with a belt fed machine gun has a dump bag through is beyond me.--[[User:1SAZ|1SAZ]] 09:19, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

::If I had to guess, he may have been issued an M4 or M16 and picked up the MG prior to the pic being taken. You can also see some STANAG mag pouches on the front of his vest too. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 03:37, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

:::I Agree with Orca1, I know you can't see from the distance, but the profile of the muzzle looks like one of those 3. As the game is set in 2014, im assuming it's either an AK-74M or AK-101. --[[User:Chablar|Chablar]] 13:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

== M240G is M240B ==

The M240G is actually a M240B as seen by gameplay screenshots. You can also identify it's M240B by the heat shield. I guess that inaccuracy in every war game (including new games) will always be. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 11:44, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

:I knew it was some kind of M240 variant, but since it was being used by a Marine I assumed it was the 240-Golf variant since they typically use that instead of the 240-Bravo. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 03:26, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Wrong use of the word "anachronistic" there. An anachronism is an object, event, or person portrayed in a chronologically inaccurate time period. The Marines using the M240B is a mistake, no doubt, but it's not an anachronism as the M240B still does technically ''exist'' at the same time beside the Golf model. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 22:42, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

== M16A4? ==

Got these pics off BF3 nation;
http://bf3nation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/bf1.jpg appears to be some M16 varient which oddly enough doesnt have any rear sights.
http://bf3nation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/bf5.jpg Another shot of the M16 like weapon (Just going to mention the nice detail on the mag). And hey, new weapon, A COFFEE MUG!!!
--[[User:GunGunGun|GunGunGun]] 15:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

It is an M16A4, the developers probably didn't detailed the weapon enough. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 16:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

:Yeah I noticed this as well. Im guessing they just forgot, The sights are even not there in the gameplay videos. I do hope they change it though, might seen a little silly firing with neither iron sights or optics. --[[User:Chablar|Chablar]] 13:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

in the new 12 min trailer, roughly at the 7min mark when they put surpessive fire on the sniper, is it me or does the guy on the left, with the M16A4 fire full auto?. [[User:Sike|Sike]] 17:20, 18 April 2011 (CDT)

I'm commenting without checking, but remember how fast you can fire the M16A4 and 93R in BC2? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:23, 19 April 2011 (CDT)

== Racking charging handle when reloading after empty ==

A new trailer showed you shooting an M4 and when you are empty, you reload but instead of pressing the bolt release, you charge the handle. I seriously hope this isn't the default reload [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:35, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

At the begining of the trailer, it did say that it was pre-alpha code. They'll hopefully have the modeling and other animations fixed by then.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 05:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, cause I'm getting bad flashbacks to games in early 2000 that pulls the charging handle when doing mid mag reloads [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:31, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, the M16A2 & M4A1 reloading animations from ''[[Battlefield 2|BF2]]'' had the character use the charging handle instead of the bolt release when reloading, they may have borrowed that. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 05:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

:3D modeling and animation is kinda hard to "borrow" from older engine/file format. I'd guess it's probably "director thinks this looks more dynamic" like [[Black]], or maybe the animator is under heavy influence of games in early 2000 :/ [[User:Ssate|Ssate]] 02:43, 12 April 2011 (CDT)

Well I hope they change it to using bolt release because it's wield for someone to do that unless you're clearing a malfunction [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 06:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm liking how they now keep track of a round in the chamber and you don't go through the whole reloading animation, maybe this time we'll have proper pistol reloads.--[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 19:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

What's a "proper" pistol reload? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
: I think he meant that the slide does not lock back when the pistol runs out, like in Medal Of Honor MP. [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 20:43, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Also in Bad Company and the second one they did the same thing where the slide didn't lock back. If it's one thing Modern Warfare has done right is the reload animation...well except maybe for the ACR. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
:There was also a problem with the SPAS-12: the character pump it after the reload even if there was a shell in the chamber. Same in Black Ops. Not to mention that "all pistols were DAO" since the hammers never move. [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 08:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

About reloads, in last years Metal of Honor, you do a combat reload when your shotgun is empty. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 22:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Another nice touch that they put in was that they left the front sight on the M4 even though it has an optical sight. In most games the front sight is either removed completely (like Bad Company 2 or Call of Duty 4) or else it has a flip down front sight (like Modern Warfare 2). Adds a nice level of realism in my opinion.--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 06:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

:I always thought removing the front sight from M4/M16 rifles in games was utterly stupid mall ninja BS, not to mention making the gun look ugly as sin. In a real-world situation, if your optic fails and you don't have any iron sights to fall back on, you're basically SOL while the other guy who's never even heard of a red dot sight is still capable of sending rounds your way. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 10:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

::Don't some optics already mount back-up irons (BUS / BUIS) on them? [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 11:46, 8 March 2011 (MSK)

:Yeah I noticed this too. All BF games seem to get reloads completely wrong. You get the feeling the make you rack the charging handle with a mid mag reload to clear the current round so they don't have to take it into account. As awesome as charging the action yourself, or racking the top slide looks, you just never do it during a normal reload. I do hope they change this yeah, but I doubt they will looking back at the other games. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Battlefield games, but I don't see how its that hard to get weapons right when they hire Ex-military guys to get everything else right. You can even find these things on Google these days. And with COD removing the iron sights on the M16s and M4s they are also removing the gas block. The gun would have to fire one round and then the action be charged manually. I love these games, but some times the ignorance they show towards the things they claim are most important pisses me off a bit.--[[User:Chablar|Chablar]] 14:00, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

::Well, at least they don't go the extra mile and have guns being fired with the safety on, I can think of a couple of games that do that. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 14:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

:The use of military and ex-military people are for realistic look of the soldiers, their movements, they communications, and look of ground vehicles and aircraft... But don't forget that it is not that hard to search for photos in the internet of weapons, vehicles, aircraft, uniforms, equipment, etc. and create it in the computer, without using the help of the military guys. As what we see know. BF3 goes for the realistic way, that's right, but it is not realistic in the small details. CoD4:MW, CoD:MW2, CoD:BO, the new MoH, OFP series, ArmA series, and of course the series of BF from BF2 and onwards have so many unrealistic small details that can be fixed easily by using mod tools. The developers doesn't really care if the M4A1 has gas block (CoD) or if you charge the weapon with the charging handle (BF2, BF3), they just want to create a game, realistic or not just the gamers will be happy. It is a bit funny as so many things are so realistic in this game but someone who has good military knowledge will notice right away for the f*** ups. In OFP:RR for example, they only thing that bothers me is that the M16A4 in-game looks like the Canadian C7 rifle. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 18:50, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

don't forget in MW2, fans were commenting that the rear flip up sight on the SCAR was backwards and would back towards the shooter and not forward. IW didn't change it cause they don't care of the little details. Also I like to see a game where they have a random chance to destroy your optic so can you actually can flip up your irons. After the EMP in MW2, they forgot that pretty much all the M4s and SCARS had flip up sights but none of them bothered to flip them up. That'll be the first thing I noticed when I aim or the fact that the ACOG is not electronic and would still work when an EMP hits. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 19:43, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

*Let's not forget MW2 is the same game which showed the Model 1887 being reloaded by having every cartridge put into the barrel. Would certainly make for an interesting first shot... [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 19:58, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

::In the words of the Demo Man from ''[[Team Fortress 2]]'', "Ka-BOOM!" :P [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 20:18, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

New behind-the-scenes footage reveals that there are partial reload animations --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 20:16, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

I liked how ''[[Project Reality]]'' completely replaced the M16/M4 reload animation from ''BF2''; the only time the charging handle is messed with is when you first bring the weapon up, and even then it's more of a brass check than a full pull back. The reloading animation has you swap the mags, hit the bolt release, and check the ejection port. Much more realistic reloading animation. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:03, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

What I wish is adding different animation for reloads. If you are in the middle of an intense fire fight, you reload and press the bolt faster and you randomly fumble with your reload cause it happens. Or if the firefight is over, you do a more slow reload. Also if the gun has flip up sights, I want to see an animation where you actually flip those irons up [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:02, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:I don't think I'd be happy with the former; same as random jams or giving singleplayer enemies a chance of getting an instakill headshot on the player, it isn't much fun having the game secretly flipping a coin to decide if you get screwed or not. ''Black'' did slower reloads if you weren't being fired at, though; it either sped the whole animation up or skipped the unnecessary wanking around if you were being shot at when you pressed reload. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 11:50, 8 March 2011 (MSK)

Another thing about leaving the front sight post on the M4s is that the red dot sight is raised and not like in COD4 where it is mounted on the rail. Maybe in real life, having 2 eyes would sort of work, but even then you can still have a front post bother your eye looking at it. It wouldn't be a clear shot [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 11:04, 6 March 2011 (MSK)

:The only game I've seen that gets it all right is Crysis 2, and the weapons are all fictional, though they could all easily exist. It's got both reload animations (six actually, because you do them different in Armour or Stealth mode), +1 in the chamber, attachments on your gun based on where they're mounted (one optic, a suppressor or no suppressor, and an underbarrel), believable damages based on calibres, functioning pistol hammers, and pistol slides that lock back when empty and not as part of the reload animation (meaning you can run around and stuff with a locked empty pistol). [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 12:02, 16 March 2011 (CDT)

== PKM ==

At the left on the bridge an enemy soldier have a Pkm machine gun :
http://www.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Battlefield3_Gogogo.jpg (high resolution sorry) [[User:Arrak|Arrak]]
:PKP

== Disable Vehicles ==

New info at Kotaku and others mentions "Temporarily disabling vehicles". I'm thinking it may be some sort of EMP thing, though, even for BF that's a stretch. What would be preferable, is if for instance... a tank... had several parts that were damageable. Things like treads, optics, engines, etc could be disabled in order to halt a tank. Same goes with tires and stuff like that with other vehicles. This'd be really cool in my opinion, for instance, snipers could damage the optics of a tank with say a .50 BMG round, temporarily of course. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 20:23, 3 June 2011 (CDT)

== M16 Carry Handle Fix ==

If anybody's seen the EA PWNED BF3 episode, it looks like they've added the carry handle to the M16A4. Two short clips demonstrating the ANT animation system that show the M16A4 with it. Good stuff. Also, did anyone notice how they're making prone realistic? It seems they're having the player's elbows be fixed rotateable spots along with the player's spine being able to bend a certain number of degrees. In order to rotate around, the player has to physically crawl over to view that area. It's easy to see in the animation demos that I referred to, but it's also noticeable on the 12 minute trailer when the Marines are on the rooftop, watch the perspective of the player's weapon and how it moves in relation to the arms. Very cool indeed, because I know balancing prone has always been a problem with BF. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 09:15, 30 May 2011 (CDT)

== Multiplayer Teaser ==

there is a MP teaser up on www.origin.com, looks like they have gone and screwed the m4 up, (removed front site) [[User:Sike|Sike]] 16:22, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

Can't get a good enough look at the gas block to tell. Anywho... I spotted the M16A4, a Mk 46/M249, M9 pistol, the PKM Pencheng, SVD, Mk 11/SR-25 (Not a M110, no full URX rail), AKS-74, and the Grach pistol. All but the SVD and Grach are viewable in the trailer, the AKS-74, SVD, and Grach are visible in the corner where it lists the kills. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 16:36, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2011-battlefield-3/714884 pause at 0:19 for the M4, [[User:Sike|Sike]] 16:42, 6 June 2011 (CDT)

:The AKS-74U screenshot shows what appears to be an enemy carrying two [[RPG-7]] launchers. Can't tell if they have optics or straight iron sights. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 14:56, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

== Who? ==

Who put the Mk 11 as the 9A-91? Travesty, stoked that the Mk 11 is in though. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 14:30, 7 June 2011 (CDT)

== AK-74M ==

This photo was posted on battlefields facebook page.

[[File:BF3_IMFDB_(AK-74).JPG]]

It seems that while the US gets an M-4A1 with and without optics, the Russians/PLR get an AK-74M.
--[[User:Mattatack92|Mattatack92]] 00:54, 8 June 2011 (CDT)

This might've just been the loadouts they had for E3, doesn't necessarily confirm faction specific weaponry. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 14:00, 8 June 2011 (CDT)

:Is that PSO-1 or the same unidentified sight from Medal of Honor? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:31, 20 June 2011 (CDT)

They modelled receiver lid locking knob wrongly. Should be like [http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/photoshooter/708/i-711.jpg this]

== Physical Warfare Pack ==

New weapons, folks!

[http://www.totalgamingnetwork.com/content.php?4305-Battlefield-3-Limited-Edition-Physical-Warfare-Pack-Available-for-Preorder-in-UK Battlefield 3 Limited Edition: Physical Warfare Pack Available for Preorder in UK]

Time for article update? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:08, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

:I see they're calling it the DAO-12 again. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:14, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

:Type 88 (and it seems the Bipod is an attachment), "DAO-12" lol, with Flechette ammo, aaaaaaaand... a Flash Suppressor for the "SKS Sniper Rifle"!!!! [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:44, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

::"SKS Sniper Rifle?" So we're set in California? Watch out, the bad guys have high-capacity 15-round magazines! [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:56, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

:::Isn't the SKS 10 rounds though? I never really liked the look of the SKS, but I've seen a lot of people on this site post about wanting it in a game for once, so it'll make all them happy :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:37, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

::::Yeah, I'm just talking generally; you know, scary handguns with high-capacity magazines and laws to rid the streets of the scourge of drive-by rifle grenadings and gangland bayonet charges. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:45, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

:::::Haha, yeah, I'm from Canada, and while we don't actually have as strict laws as, say, California, what we have is lots of paperwork and time spent training for licenses, etc. Making them harder to get and needing more knowledge about them is way better than just banning them. I never understood that, oooo, a bayonet mount, oh no! A pistol grip? They'll kill us so much more efficiently now! Criminals use illegally bought weapons that aren't registered. And that guy that comes home to find his wife is cheating on him? He's so mad he'll kill both of them, and they think he won't just get a knife or something? I'm not supporting killing people, but people would still do it even if all the firearms on Earth went away. We were pretty damn good at it for the thousands of years before we invented them... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:36, 26 May 2011 (CDT)
::::::Agreed :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:26, 26 May 2011 (CDT)

Still no update? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:16, 8 June 2011 (CDT)

'laws to rid the streets of the scourge of drive-by rifle grenadings' - I lol'd --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 08:11, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

Why in the hell would they make the SKS a 'Sniper Rifle'? I mean calling the Dragunov a true sniper rifle is pretty much... wrong, I'm okay with it though, but an SKS?
I'll admit I'm not very experienced with the SKS myself, maybe it's a tack driver in disguise, but from what I've heard it's just a little more accurate than your standard AK47 and that's not saying much.... --[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 12:56, 18 June 2011 (CDT)

:Well there are only going to be semi-auto sniper rifles, so really, there are only DMRs anyway. It's not like it's a sniper class, it's a recon class, so that's not missnamed. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:59, 18 June 2011 (CDT)

:: Source? There's no way they'd make all the sniper rifles semi-automatic. We've only seen semi-automatics, yes, but there's no confirmation that they'll -all- be semi-automatic. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 20:09, 18 June 2011 (CDT)

:That's what I got out of the Recon description here:
http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/battlefield_bad_company/archive/2011/06/08/battlefield-3-at-e3-roundup.aspx
Semi-auto and C4. That could just mean default, and you still get bolt-actions and the mortar later, but I really think they mean they removed both of those, to balance the issues with those two things in BC2. Everyone uses Recon, everyone hides with a one hit kill sniper rifle, and everyone calls in their magic mortars from anywhere onto anything. It looks like they're trying to make the Recon kit more of a DMR kit than a true sniper, which is probably better, it fits the squad play better as a DMR and a support gunner do the same job, one with high amounts of precision, the other with high amounts of ammo. On a different note, I'm pretty sure the M4A1 will be in the engineer kit because it has a flashlight and will be the counterpart to the AKS-74U, like the M16A4 and AK-74M. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 21:36, 18 June 2011 (CDT)

: They meant at the E3 demo, the Recon class has a semi-automatic sniper rifle. At the E3 Demo. Hence the "E3 Roundup" title, it's not dismissing anything, just saying what they saw at E3. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 21:47, 18 June 2011 (CDT)

Finally :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:12, 20 June 2011 (CDT)

== M249 SAW is actually Mk. 46 Mod 0? ==

By looking at the handgurads, I noticed that they are sticking out like the Mk. 46 Mod 0's handguards instead of the flat M249 SAW's heatshield. Also, because the weapon is fitted with M145 ECLAN scope, this could be the same model as in Medal of Honor, only it is rendered differently or something like that to fit Battlefield 3's engine. So, could be? --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 03:54, 9 June 2011 (CDT)

: Yep, it's for sure the Mk 46. Though, it's all one nacho. Glad with the weapon choices they're going with so far. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 10:34, 9 June 2011 (CDT)

Glad to see the M145 MGO, presumably in place of the ACOG. Nice touch. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 08:13, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

Yep, there's also some speculation that there'll be multiple types of 4x optics for each weapon, like you could put the Elcan on an M4. But I think it's more likely that each weapon will just have a different model of ACOG-type optic. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 08:27, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

:If that's the case, I'm putting the ELCAN on the M16A4, and if there's camo I'm making it green :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 23:08, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

::Canadian, eh? :P --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:28, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

:::Yup ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:12, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

The quality of the screenshot is too low to tell if it's an M249 or a Mark 46. The key difference between the two is that the M249 has a magazine well on the side of the receiver for using M16 mags, but the Mark 46 doesn't. You can't really tell if the SAW in this game has a mag well or not. I also want to point out that the SAW in MoH has a magazine well, which would make it an M249. ;) [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:06, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

== P90 in IGN preview ==

here

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/117/1172554/battlefield-3-20110606090440594-000.jpg

the magazine looks like its either missing or modeled way to small

source http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/117/1172554p1.html

sorry i dont know how to embed an image [[User:Sike|Sike]] 07:54, 10 June 2011 (CDT)

there's a clear model error...the magazine is lodged inside the weapon at an angle and the charging handles are floating above the magazine in midair.
however, the magazine looks like its of appropriate size and its transparent....would be a nice touch if the bullets inside would actually be visible and move.

May perhaps point to an extended magazines type system, though you'd expect the studio to realise that the P90 feeds from the rear so this wouldn't function --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 08:09, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

There are Extended Magazines, you can see them in the loadout window in some of the E3 footage on a PKP Pecheneg. But, what the P90 is likely, is just a pre-alpha mess-up. The magazine is there and properly sized, its' just angled downward into the weapon/barrel. It's not married properly to the P90 and is likely just a glitch that will be fixed. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 08:29, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

Fair enough, pretty cool that things such as extended magazines have made it into BF3 --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 12:22, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

== M4A1 ==

I just saw the latest video where the M4A1 had a holo-sight and the gas block was removed. Looks like this will be just another unrealistic game after all. But at least the character pressed the BCRB instead of pulling the charging handle. Damn it, when will a new Rainbow Six game come out?! - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:38, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

It's not a big deal. The M4A1 still kills people and looks great. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 14:47, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:I might be a bit annoying to have every game M4 lose its gas block, but it really doesn't matter THAT much, and it makes the scope view clearer. To say that it will be "just another unrealistic game" because of that is silly, just pretend it has one of those super mini gas blocks, you wouldn't even be able to see it anyway. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:57, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:: The problem is that I don't want to have a clear view because soldiers do not have clear view ALL the time. And there is a nice little thing called "flat-top riser". One might wonder why was it invented.... - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 17:07, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:But they're ugly and no one uses them. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 20:45, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:Would be cool if removing gas block was optional and made gun bolt-action. Talk about killing with skill :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:28, 19 June 2011 (CDT)
::Bolt-action sniper rifles will be usable without scopes.

== Some Weapon Spots ==

(Continuously updated) This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwT6x7zEQ8c) shows on the kill-feed that the SVD makes a return for Battlefield 3 at 2:20. At 3:48 you see an enemy in the engineer class holding what appears to be an RPG-7 at 3:48. The kill-feed shows at 4:06 a MP-443 pistol. Clear look at an RPG-7 with on the back of an enemy soldier with the rocket (quite dangerously) inserted at 6:03 and again at 7:23. --[[User:DaiTaNam|DaiTaNam]] 16:32, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

== Team Specific Weapons? ==

Looking at the AKS-74U pictures it looks scarily like that's a US Marine using it on Spetsnaz. As far as I know there'll be unlockables and selectable weapons, but does anyone know if these are team specific or not? I'm personally pretty worried we're going to have a bunch of marines in state of the art gear running around with AK rifles because a bunch of bars say they're the best, or PLR using M4s and 249's, that's as bad, if not worse. --[[User:AmrasCalmacil|AmrasCalmacil]] 17:26, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

:That's only in MP, it's the same as Bad Company 2, I never liked being restricted to team weapons im MP. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]]

:The player could've picked the weapon up... We don't know for sure about faction specific loadouts. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 23:54, 17 June 2011 (CDT)

::I personally liked the faction specific loadouts in BF2, it was realistic. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:40, 18 June 2011 (CDT)

:True, to be honest I'd be happy either way. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:49, 18 June 2011 (CDT)

:I hope they bring back faction specific weapons from Battlefield 2. Medal of Honor made it right at first but then you got the opposing faction's guns and faction-specificness pretty much lost its purpose :\ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:28, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

::But in BF2 if you killed a enemy you can pick up his "kit" and use his weapons... - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:08, 19 June 2011 (CDT)

:::Yes, first you had to kill an enemy, then you could pick his stuff (kit). But for Battlefield 3 it should be weapon (more realistic than insta-crossdressing xD ) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 16:12, 19 June 2011 (CDT)
::::Your right, lol. XD - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 19:25, 19 June 2011 (CDT)
:::Actually in BC2 your character model never changed when you swaped kits, you could have a medic carrying a sniper rifle, or a ghillie guy with an RPG-7. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:49, 19 June 2011 (CDT)
::::Ah right, I forgot. :\
:::::Lol, you forgot about rocket launcher-wielding snipers ;) Hey, we should put a pic of that under the rocket section or something, you know, just for kicks. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:05, 20 June 2011 (CDT)
::::::lol yeah. The reason I don't remember is because I only played with bots, I only had Dial-up back then. u_u - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:34, 20 June 2011 (CDT)

I hope its not side specific, I always hated that considering how two weapons from the same class where completely different and handled different. Most people would end up using unlocked guns that you can use on either side. If you want a game thats realistic as possible, play Operation Flashpoint.

:Being a fan of Battlefield 2, which featured faction specific weapons, I'm offended someone is saying me to play another game. I might as well say: If you want a game thats unrealistic as possible, play Call of Duty. By the way, in Medal of Honor opposing factions' weapons had identical stats, so that wouldn't be a problem for Battlefield 3 (probably). Also, sign your posts (paragraphs?) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:52, 23 June 2011 (CDT)

::Well since OpFor is using a AK-74M and AKS-74U which is some-what comparable to the M16A4 and M4A1, I say the game is gonna be fairly balanced. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:47, 23 June 2011 (CDT)
::: If they use weapon balance from MoH then yes. Because in BF2 M16A2 and M4A1 kinda sucked (better use G36E and SCAR-L unlocks, respectively). However AK-101 and AKS-74U were ''nice'' (damage)! Check their stats here: [http://wiki.bf2s.com/weapons/comparison BF2 Weapons Comparison] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:40, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

:^^But those games kinda sucked (at least Dragon Rising, Red River looks good). :\ Whatever, I personally like faction specific weapons for my reasons above. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 14:27, 22 June 2011 (CDT)

::To be honest, Dragon Rising didn't suck, it was just buggy and laggy (which can be said about pretty much every other shooter, at least as start) and didn't have weapon customization (which can be said about Battlefield 2). In my opinion it is Red River which sucked, basically being Co-op CoD:MW with Visible Walls of Block being replaced by Invisible Walls of Doom and auto regeneration being replaced by manual healing. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:52, 23 June 2011 (CDT)

:::Meh, that's why I said ''kinda'' sucky, lol I heard AAII is much worst, as its severely buggy and lacks weapon animations and others. P.S. I prefer manual healing over mutant regenerating health any day, the only place 3 second regenerating health belongs is a Wolverine game. :\ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:47, 23 June 2011 (CDT)
::::To be honest, manual healing in Red River isn't ''that'' much different from auto regeneration: hold "use" key while not getting hit and several seconds later you are good to go. Whether Dragon Rising had an actual Medic class just like Battlefield :) Oh, and it's kinda hard to make complex game without ''a lot'' of technical problems and unfinished things, yes ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:40, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

Also, if you want actual realism at this point, you go ArmA 2, not Operation Flashpoint: We-screwed-over-an-already-great-franchise-by-making-a-game-with-casual-gamers-in-mind[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]] 03:06, 24 June 2011 (CDT)
:If you want actual realism at this point, you go to Army. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:40, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

::Ugh, But ArmA II had NO weapon animations, that's kinda a big "unfinished thing" when you publish the game! And you Mr. Masterius, your obnoxious, why don't ''you'' go join the Army. We're talking about wanting realistic combat games not what peoples career decisions should be. -_- [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:04, 24 June 2011 (CDT)
:::Mr. Wolf, one thing you should realise: until Virtual Reality is created and gone into mass production, games will never, NEVER be trully realistic. Holding gun in your hands =\= Mouse+Keyboard. Also, mine is not obnoxious, mine is very nice and tidy :\ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:36, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

::::And what's so wrong with wanting realism in "Mouse+Keyboard" games? Also I have handled, extensively trained, and fired many REAL firearms, so I'm not just some armchair-commando or a mall-ninja. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 19:18, 24 June 2011 (CDT)

:Eventually FPSs will be the player wearing a mocap suit with a mocap gun, in a mocap room with a floor that moves (like a treadmill) so you can run places. And you will be forced to reload the weapon properly etc. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:25, 24 June 2011 (CDT)
::The first steps are made :D [http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/xio-ultimate-fps-virtual-reality-gaming-exoskeleton-prototype-video-21-04-2011/ XIO Gaming VR Simulator Prototype] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:54, 25 June 2011 (CDT)
:::I'd settle for having a decent field of view, right now. They're actually getting narrower rather than wider as the gun attempts to colonise roughly a quarter of the screen. Kinda sad when the guy in ''Doom'' held his pistol in a more sensible way than the guy in ''Crysis 2'' does; the latter seems to be holding it with the base of his right palm rested against his nose. Sure, we're not all going to own an IMAX globe theatre any time soon to have a full 180 degrees or so of vision, but it gets silly when your FOV is ~30 degrees these days when most of the old shooters did 70-90. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:08, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

:I removed your post? Maybe we both tried to edit at the same time, because it wasn't there when I did, sorry about that. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:34, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

Lol @ me. Should have known someone was going to say that... Should have added "In a Video game"... [[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]] 08:00, 25 June 2011 (CDT)
:Right 8) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 09:51, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

::It's alright, danke. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:31, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

==More Stuff==
Maybe. I didn't see anything listed here that we don't have, but they seem to know what they're talking about. (Near the bottom)
http://enterbf3.com/
[[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 12:17, 4 July 2011 (CDT)

== Barrett MRAD/98B spotted ==

Taken from the "Classes Explained" screenshot...

[http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x80/cowboyw54/Bf3render.jpg]

source:
[http://bf3blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/bf3-classes.jpg]

--[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 18:07, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

:Cool, I'd never heard of that rifle before, looks like a good addition. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:37, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

:Looks like they call Picatinny Railed M16A4 '''M16A2''' ''again'' *facepalm*. Oh, and that's a weird sniper rifle. Don't they have '''M110''' for that?
:P.S. And yeah, same goes for '''DAO-12''' (Armsel Striker, duh!). But I would prefer '''Armsel Protecta''' (it's more modern after all ;) ) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:01, 7 July 2011 (CDT)
::Actually they are calling it '''M-16a2'''... nuff said! - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 05:14, 7 July 2011 (CDT)
:::If it was called "Blarg Rifle" but had correct reloads, I'd be happy. Where did it say they called it an A2 anyway? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:03, 7 July 2011 (CDT)
::::[http://bf3blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/bf3-classes.jpg here] [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 07:50, 7 July 2011 (CDT)
:::::Oh right, well, it might say "M-16a2", but it calls the MRAD a "Mk. II" Sniper Rifle, so, we'll see. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:19, 7 July 2011 (CDT)

Well I think that the "Mk. II" is the Mk II Mod 0 (SR-25), and that they just threw the text on there because the Mk II will be the default Recon rifle.
Anyways, I think this 99% confirms that it will be in the game, should it be added to the main page?
--[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 14:28, 10 July 2011 (CDT)

:OH Mk.11, I thought it said Mk.2, and I couldn't figure out what the hell that would be. Yeah, we've seen the SR-25 already in that multiplayer footage, and everything in that video was default. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:05, 10 July 2011 (CDT)

So MoH had the M110 when it should have had the Mark 11, but BF3 now has the Mark 11 when it should have the M110 (USMC recently dropped the Mark 11 in favor of the M110)? *Facepalm* [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:27, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

:Indeed. Another thing about MoH is that apparently Mark 14 Mod 0 got finished in 2003 and got shipped to Navy SEALs in 2004[http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=377] thus making it as chronologically incorrect as M110. Devs usually tend to skip the details. Still, the crown of ignorance goes to CoD brand. The latest MW3 seems to have customized AK-47 *Major Facepalm* --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 15:39, 10 August 2011 (CDT)

==Notes about in-game ACOG scopes==

I noticed that there seem to be two separate models of ACOG scopes available in the game, according to the screenshots posted in the article. The M4A1 carbine the player character uses in the 'Faultline' trailer is fitted with a camo-painted TA01NSN ACOG(identifiable by the integral iron sights and lack of a fiber-optic strip along the top) while one of the M16A4's shown in first-person view in the article here is equipped with a TA31F ACOG. This is the second FPS game I've seen to do this, the other being ''[[Project Reality]]'' (itself a mod of ''[[Battlefield 2]]'', coincidentally) which has the TA31F and TA31RCO ACOG models available in it. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 03:44, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

:...While in the average FPS, you're lucky if the thing called the ACOG looks like anything in Trijicon's product line. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:47, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

::Making the public in general think every scope is called an ACOG :P Also, in terms of 4x sights, theres the M249s ELCAN, and I'm hoping you can put any optic on anything. One of the DICE guys said there's a crazy amount of optics in BF3. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:26, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Even in COD: Black Ops (a game that takes place in the 60s mind you) they have a scope called a ACOG, even though it's obviously ''not'' a ACOG *rolls eyes*. Game Devs are becoming fails more and more every year. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:08, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

::::Treyarch basically made their own Modern Warfare, with blackjack and hookers. So yeah, forget about proper portray of Cold War. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:41, 13 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Give me the ability to slap the Elcan onto the M240 and I will be happy. Hope what you said about the 'crazy amount of optics' turns out to be true. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:34, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

:::I hope you're not confusing the ELCAN scope with the similar M145 MGO. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 12:05, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

::::You are correct, I did mean the MGO. I know the M145 is different, I just though the Elcan name was interchangeable. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 13:15, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::It would be nice to see a broader array of optics customizations in FPS games. ''Project Reality'' has a pretty good variety, but you have to switch out your entire class loadout in order to change this, and most weapons only have 1 or 2 optics available aside from iron sights (the M4A1 has the widest variety; having available EOTech, M68 Aimpoint, Kimber Mepro, & ITL MARS red dots as well as both TA31F & TA31RCO ACOGs as mentioned above). [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 12:05, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

Now, that Project Reality has been mentioned... I hope DICE won't disappoint the CIS players, so that we can kick yer capitalist arses in proper way... j/k lol :P Anyway, here are the articles for those interested: [http://ra.spetsnaz.su/wiki/1P29 for AK-74M] and [http://ra.spetsnaz.su/wiki/PKP for PKP]. And the [http://www.npzoptics.com/catalog/sights_for_small_arms/ full catalog]. Oh, and it's been suggested on [http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-3/1405448-optics-lots-optics-2.html#post19418223 EA's Forums], so I don't have to do it myself. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:24, 11 July 2011 (CDT)

== Mocap Guns ==
Here's a challenge for everyone; what are the two wire guns standing in for?

2nd Story
http://www.enterbf3.com/

Or if it's off the list after a while:
http://media.enterbf3.com/images/mcnab1.jpg
http://media.enterbf3.com/images/mcnab2.jpg [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:29, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

Cornershot and a Thompson with M203? :P [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:35, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

:lolz. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 02:51, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

More seriously, that thing McNab has is definately supposed to be a carbine with an underbarrel accessory, I can't really see what else it could be. The other guy's weapon is a bit more of a mystery; since it doesn't have any kind of projection for a magazine, I'd guess it's something like a Bizon; can't be a P90, these rigs are for capturing hand positions and his would be completely wrong for that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:36, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

:Wait, actually it does have a magazine, I see a curved MP5-style mag just in front of his finger. So, maybe it's an MP5 with some underbarrel device making the front end all chunky, or one of those MP10 things like in GTAIV. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:40, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

LOL Tommy with M203 :) The one on the right really looks like an M14 EBR to me, the mag, handguard, and barrel, but the other one is weird. It looks like an MP5 pistol grip and mag, with a really bulky front, and a stock that looks familiar, bu I just can't place. :P [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:09, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

: [http://riflestocks.com/store/product2.html ACE side-folding skeleton stock]? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:48, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah, that's the one! Hmm, is there anything in particular that's on, aftermarket or otherwise? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:29, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Quick google gets me mostly AK-pattern weapons. AK, Saiga, Galil, that kind of thing. Couple on MACs, not that it's likely to be one of those. Maybe that's what a MoCap AKS-74U looks like? :s [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:36, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

::::I'd say that's the best guess so far [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 12:13, 15 July 2011 (CDT)

::::Dunno, such a stock shape reminds me of [http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:G36.jpg G36E] which was in Battlefield 2 (with railz instead of optics). --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:35, 18 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::Not sure about that, you'd have thought if it was G36E the mocap prop would have a rod or something stuck to the end to represent the rest of the barrel like the one McNab has. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 06:44, 18 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::Bah, I am not really into guessing the gun by the mocap. Details of it - OK, but generally it's just a mishmash that can be used for anything provided the grip is adequate xD --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:51, 18 July 2011 (CDT)

Actually the ACE stock is found on the SPAS 15 as well (which was in Bad Company 1, and Battlefield 2 I think) probably the most likely choice. --[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 18:48, 18 July 2011 (CDT)

:I hope it's that, that was the ONLY weapon that didn't come back in BC2 for some reason. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 20:44, 18 July 2011 (CDT)

::But it returned in [[Battlefield Play4Free#Franchi SPAS-15|Battlefield Play4Free]] so its appearance in BF3 is possible ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 23:20, 18 July 2011 (CDT)

== Glock 17 unlock spotted ==

... in a promotional shot from Dice about their Battlelog service

[http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/550x599/__key/CommunityServer.Blogs.Components.WeblogFiles/battlefield_5F00_bad_5F00_company/2.jpg]

--[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 13:02, 20 July 2011 (CDT)

:It was also seen in the EA Pwned video, along with the G3 (mentioned), I forgot to add that. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:06, 20 July 2011 (CDT)

::I hope this Glock 17 actually holds... well... 17 rounds. :P - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:24, 20 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Well, the MP-443 does, so that could work, I'm thinking there's gonna be a Euro faction, with the Glock as the sidearm, and we've also seen the P90. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:17, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::::Now that reminds me... Battlefield 2: Modern Combat (console version of Battlefield 2) had [[ Battlefield 2: Modern Combat#Glock 17 Pistol|Glock 17]] as Euro Sidearm :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:44, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::It did? Awesome! I was just guessing, but that basically confirms it :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:54, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::Here's some leaked gameplay for you guys, skip to 1:44, there's your Glock. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfeOoEDYEt0) Would appear that the sidearms (at least) are not faction specific. Also looks like it holds 18 rounds but I'm assuming this is a '+1' affair. [[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 05:00, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::Melee Animation is good :D Reloading after every bullet isn't :| --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:48, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

== Alpha Footage ==

no doubt some of you have heard there is a closed alpha trial going on, and some of you may have watched the leaked footage online. i dont want to post links to these videos just incase its not aloud.
but i can tell you, that the G36c, Glock 17, M27 IAR, SV98, MP7 and M1014 are in. --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 08:24, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:Closed Alpha? Any news about Closed Beta for MoH: Limited Edition owners? It should be before Open Beta, shouldn't it? :\ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:41, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:A pretty nice selection of weapons appearing which is good to see, particularly the M27. Now just need someone to spot the L85 and I'll be happy \o/ --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 11:19, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::I guess it, Russian counterpart to M27 is going to be RPK-74M :O And British - L86? ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:41, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:::You may possibly be right, and I hope you are. If it's in there, first person to deliver the information wins a shiny medal from myself :o --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 12:48, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::::looks like US support starts with the M27, and the Russians start with RPK, british forces arent in the game... --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 13:58, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::The existence of other factions hasn't been denied (to my knowledge) but even so I hope either weapon is available --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 15:02, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::Germans aren't in the game and there's a G36C. We can't rule anything out. Plus, there's always the possibility of DLC. [[User:Halorocka888|Halorocka888]] 19:31, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::New factions/weapons added via DLC would be grand. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 19:50, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::Yeah, like they did with Euro Forces Pack for Battlefield 2 :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:37, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:I've yanked the images off the page; as with the MW3 stuff, posting images from leaks is not allowed. Wait until they show up in something official. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:16, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::Why does it even matter? We should post everything about everything we know... :/ [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:36, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Same reason we don't allow pirated or leaked movie footage; using that kind of thing reflects badly on the site. We can wait until these weapons are confirmed in official materials (which they will be in due course, I'm sure), we don't need to go using dubious sources. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:39, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::::Yeah, for a sec it slipped my mind that once the game is out we will have everything :P [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:21, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::::And there are still screencaps from leaked version :O --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:37, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::Which ones? [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:30, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::The ones added by Gran28 - check page history. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:41, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::Oh, I thought where he said "Paris gameplay video" he was talking about a gameplay video released at some show in Paris. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:49, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::The ones that I added was from a gameplay trailer released by DICE yesterday I think.--[[User:Gran28|Gran28]] 08:04, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::Ah, if that's so, then my bad. Kinda hard to separate official ones from current leaks. Better mention that on the talk page :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 09:28, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

== New Official MP Trailer ==

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emwEknzmyRo

can see a M4 with a Eotech and a Acog, and the front site is in when optics are attached.--[[User:Sike|Sike]] 08:32, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

== Possible return of the NDM-86 ==
I was watching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MgQMoPwGwM&feature=related and around 1:13-14, I thought I saw the pattern found on the straight mags that the 7.62mm NATO variant of the NDM-86 uses.
EDIT: Okay at 1:15 at the maximum quality, I could clearly see that magazine is straight. This is no SVD guys, no SVD. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 18:09, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:Good spot, wouldn't have noticed that myself. I wonder why they opted for the NDM-86 instead of the SVD? I assume the SVD is harder to get in Sweden meaning the studio had to find an alternative. Is it still labeled as an SVD within the game? --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 19:52, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::It is, and it was in MoH. You know, I think MoH was like a super pre-Alpha version of this game, there's and MP7 too, and a few others. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 20:03, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:::I hope DICE do a better job on BF3 than they did on MoH, that game was shocking. There's probably some truth in that though :P --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 20:43, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

::::Well, MoH multi was made by a small team from DICE in 6-7 months, and ALL of DICE has been working on BF3 for, like, 5 years, I'm not worried ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 23:52, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::Fair play to them but you'd have thought issues with the game would have been patched following the game's release. Still, I don't deny that BF3 will be a far better game however I'm sure some of the issues from MoH will poke through. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 03:21, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::Well, we can hope the issues that poke through don't include those godawful skyboxes that MoH had. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:26, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::DICE deliberately sabotaged MoH MP 'cause they were focused on BC2... :( But it is said that MoH 2 is being developed solely by DC. And it is rumored that MoH 2 will have Frostbite 2 Engine :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:50, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Would be interesting to see what DC do with the Frostbite 2 engine, I wasn't all that impressed with the single player but taking into account that (as far as I'm aware) MoH was the studio's first game, it was an adequate effort. Was better than the multiplayer at least, in my opinion. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 07:20, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::::I've always said that if MoH's MP was the same as it SP, then the MP would be awesome, I have it just for the SP :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 08:35, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::Just played some more of SP and I have to say I agree, pretty intense stuff. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 11:38, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

== Default Weapons ==
I just noticed that all of the US weapons are Armalites, and all of the Russian weapons are Kalashnikovs, it's cool. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 23:58, 21 July 2011 (CDT)

:Aside from the 'SVD' which isn't a Kalashnikov design, but we'll forgive you as it is outwardly similar. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 03:16, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::True, but you got the point ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:21, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::[http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/sniper/sn18/svd_clones.jpg SVD Clones]. The third one is AK modified to SVD. Ain't Russian guns :P --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:58, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:::I do like the fact that each faction has it's own starting weaponry, I always liked that about BF2 (though I didn't play it much) --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 03:25, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

::::Agreed :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:58, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

== AS Val ==
I can't find the video, but I'll post a link: http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/7447261.page [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:31, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

:Cool! =) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 22:20, 22 July 2011 (CDT)

== Sniper Rifles can have iron sights ==
Yup. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 00:04, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

:Hmmm. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 00:56, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

== M1014 ==
It's hard to tell because of the screwed up animation in the alpha, but you load a round into the chamber first, then the tube. EDIT: This is a good thing, I made sound like it wasn't :O [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:32, 23 July 2011 (CDT)

== M16A4 ==
It fires semi, burst, AND auto, one of those fancy 360 degree fire selects or something :/ [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:32, 23 July 2011 (CDT)
:problem?

== New Alpha Gameplay ==

In the gameplay, I noticed that the front sights are still present when optics are attached, that M16A4 is now burst-fire and that the US LMG is called M249 in-game. Bipod gameplay was shown too. I also spotted the M-416 at 0:55, maybe the M4A1 equivalent of the enemy forces? [[User:Gonzaga|Gonzaga]] 18:45, 24 July 2011 (CDT)

:Okay, yeah, they made it so the front sight is there, but disappears when aiming, the M16 has burst as well as auto (and semi), and the HK416 is an unlock, ONLY the default weapons are faction based, anyone can use unlocks, but the default ones might be usable by anyone later or something though. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:42, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

::That's still much better than the MW games. Boy, you complain more about games than I do. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 02:19, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

::Defaults faction / unlocks not is how BFs 2 and 2142 worked, too. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:08, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

:I'm not complaining, I actually like the front sight disappearing system, if it's not there the gun wouldn't work, but if it was, then having an RDS would give you a better field of view. The M16's fire modes aren't too bad, as long as the weapons have the right ammo count, reload properly, and have +1 I'm happy. Things like the player loading it fancy or whatever are okay. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:56, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== M320 Standalone confirmed ==
This. Search "BF3 Grenade Launcher", and the vid has a G3 with an ACOG too. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:56, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

== SIG 550 pretty much confirmed by Demize ==
http://twitter.com/#!/Demize99/status/30377608852017152 [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:56, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

:Swiss weapon of choice 8) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:44, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

== A Few Weapon Vids ==
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuoU7uBNvP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LILgS-M2xo

Here's most everything in action, and with a few attachments. I love how the description for the M145 mentions the Canadian Army! :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:37, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

:Looking good so far, spotted some people on my Steam friends list playing the alpha. So jealous. :( --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 10:43, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

::I'm looking very forward to this game. :D - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 13:42, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Video Confirms new weapons for the game, as available in alpha build. In the first video we see an MP-7 PDW at 1:14, M1911 pistol at 1:57, RPK light machinegun on killfeed at 3:21, M27 IAR in killfeed at 6:12, M1014 shotgun at 7:34, G3 battlerifle on killfeed at 8:29, G36c assault rifle at 12:15, M320 grenade launcher on killfeed at 13:16. In the 2nd video we see RPK selection and model at 6:07 (usage following). Someone please update main page accordingly.--[[User:DaiTaNam|DaiTaNam]] 15:32, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

::::Good of you to find everything, but leaked stuff isn't going on the main page :/ [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:25, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

::::: awww =(, thanks though.--[[User:DaiTaNam|DaiTaNam]] 17:39, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::Sigh, The M145 uses the M4 reticle over the M249/240 reticle :( --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 17:47, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::That's the reticle my (standard version) ELCAN replica has on my airsoft C7A2, do you mean the M145 version is supposed to have a different one? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 20:40, 25 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::[http://www.dsarms.com/images/ELCM145M4W.gif Elcan M145 Optical Sight for M4 and M249/M240]. Remember people, this is just leaked Alpha and DICE will ''probably'' make changes to the game to make it right... Oh, and RPK :| --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 00:53, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::Oh I see. And what do you mean, oh and the RPK? What's wrong with it? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:07, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::Has the wrong bipod at the moment, doesn't look like the barrel is long enough to be an RPK either --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 05:31, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::Well... since it has both synthetic furniture and curved magazine, it is [http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/machine/mg15/rpkm.jpg RPKM] (ignore the magazine color). However in-game description mentions that it uses 5.45x39 ammo, which is used in [http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/machine/mg16/rpk74_02.jpg RPK-74M] that is actually used by Russian Forces. So the point is, DICE should change the magazine model and rename the weapon to '''RPK-74M''' for Russians. That Militia can use whatever they want. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:36, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::I didn't know that, so the curvature of the magazine in an AK/RPK-style weapon can be used to identify the caliber? DICE have clearly given alpha invites to the wrong people, should have gone to the inhabitants of IMFDB. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 05:42, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::: :D And yeah. The curve gradation for Kalashnikovs' magazines goes as follows: 5.56 < 5.45 < 7.62, with 7.62 curve being particularly distinguishable ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:28, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::::You learn something new everyday, now I can complain that the BF3 RPK is incorrect >:O --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:33, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::I sent Demize a tweet (I made a Twitter accout JUST to send him stuff) that the RPK should be either the RPKM or RPK-74M (as I can't see the mags well enough), and also sent him another one saying the G3 should be the G3A3 :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:42, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::::That is dedication to informing the developer their game is wrong, well played. I also sent him a tweet concerning the M145's reticle. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 18:30, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::::Very good :D Two problems I've noticed about '''SVD''': First, as already been noticed, is that in-game model of magazine is straight NATO one instead of curved Russian one; second, is that in-game '''PKS-07''' is using optical PSO-1 based reticle instead of its own magnified reflex reticle like this one: [http://www.newphillysports.com/milsurp/pks07reticle.jpg]. And here information about it: [http://www.gunscollecting.com/english/scopes/pks-07-collimating-sight/]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:24, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::::::Just recieved an invite to the alpha, I am so stoked to try this game out \o/ --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 09:44, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::::Sweet! [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:56, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

== 1911 spotted ==

I just watched a video and the 1911 is back. This game's version appears to be the MEU model. I can tell from the slide, sights, and hammer. It appears to be the old model with the Springfield Armory slide. [[User:ShootingLiberal|ShootingLiberal]] 23:53, 26 July 2011 (CDT)

:I can't see the grips, but it appears to be a stock M1911 with a commander-style hammer (the round one, not the MEU one), a silver 3-hole trigger, and a silver barrel. Oh, after Googleing I found that that IS the original version of the MEU :/ http://www.justpistols.co.uk/meu_001.jpg That's an airsoft gun, but it's EXACTLY the one from BF3. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:35, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

::Also, the MEU Pistol is currently designated [http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/24/m45-close-quarters-combat-pistol/ M45] Pistol ;) So maybe in-game it is some kind of customized M1911 Pistol? :O --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:36, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

== Alpha ==
I just got the invite for the Operation Metro Alpha and Will post info here if I can.--[[User:N-10 Aden|N-10 Aden]] 20:53, 27 July 2011 (CDT)

:Awesome, that's two of us now :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]]

::So my impressions of the alpha so far are largely positive, not the biggest fan of the map however. Too many narrow corridors that you have to enter to advance, meaning that the defending team can plonk a SAW there and wipe you out as you enter the meat grinder. The weapons feel nice: Plenty of recoil meaning that burst firing is essential. Definitely an improvement gameplay-wise compared to BC2, which wasn't a bad game by any stretch of the imagination. Looking forward to the beta now! \o/ --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 09:46, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

:::Improvement compared to BC2, is obviously. The question is, improvement compared to BF2! :O--[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:31, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

::::I can't really comment on whether it's better than BF2 as I haven't really spent much time on it (5 mins max) but it is a fairly solid FPS in it's own right. One thing that has bothered me thus far is 3D spotting, do not like it at all though, it should be changed for minimap spotting. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 10:46, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::Ah, in that case, if you still have BF2, I would recommend you download and install [http://www.realitymod.com/ Project Reality] mod, which focuses on realistic armed forces. There are people who have BF2 solely for it. And, it has British Army! :D [http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa356/DMasterST/B_Uniform.png Their uniform] and [http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa356/DMasterST/B_Weapons.png their weapons] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:02, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::Yeah and the Canadian Army :D I'll be getting BF2/RM soon. Keep in mind this is one of the smallest map and it's meant to be more infantry focused, they'll be much bigger ones with more vehicles ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:10, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::Yup :D [http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa356/DMasterST/C_Uniform.png Their uniform] and [http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa356/DMasterST/C_Weapons.png their weapons] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:49, 29 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::I hope that with more vehicles comes more teammates actually willing to take them out. No one playing engineer was even trying, just using their launchers on each other. Meant to ask if anyone still played BF2 as I was gonna get it in anticipation for 3, should organise some gamz. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 18:57, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

::::::::I'm trying to get BF2 again, loved that game, can't wait to convert it to PR. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:04, 28 July 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::Needs a bit of polish but what I played of the alpha was a lot of fun, roll on October --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 18:32, 1 August 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::Sweet! [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:28, 2 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::Anyone have any questions about it? I'd be happy to answer them (as best I can) --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 17:27, 2 August 2011 (CDT)

== All Alpha weapons ==

http://bf3blog.com/2011/08/new-battlelog-screenshots-show-weapons-awards/battlelog-weapon-list/ - [[User:Joey1666|Joey1666]]

:I hope, they will make new icons for AR-15 guns. These no-sights ones are just weird. Also, what I've said in "A Few Weapon Vids" --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:21, 2 August 2011 (CDT)

::The in-game ones have carry handles but I'm sure you knew this, I can live with a few slightly inaccurate icons on the Battlelog though. The M27 IAR had no front sight post for some reason in-game, made the Eotech pretty much essential. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 17:19, 2 August 2011 (CDT)

:::Doesn't it have flip-up sights? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:43, 3 August 2011 (CDT)

::::It does, yes, but the front sight is missing the front sight post. As in, the sights are there, but the post is not. Made aiming quite tricky as you can imagine. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 12:34, 3 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, I'm assuming that's been fixed by now [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:15, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

::::::I hope so, was a nightmare. Still, barely used the RPK/IAR once the SAW was unlocked --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 04:44, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::::Cause the SAW's a real support weapon ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:21, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

::::::::^ This, though the fact that you can change the RPK and IAR to semi-auto was a nice feature --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:30, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::Does IAR have better accuracy and SAW better firepower or SAW has ''both''? Because if it is the second one, IAR seems kinda... useless. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:35, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::For sure, the IAR/RPK are definitely more accurate than the SAW, the SAW is quite difficult to use at range without deploying the bipod whereas the other two don't have as much recoil. I assume the lighter support weapons are there for the more mobile, front-line support guy. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 09:18, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

Pretty sure this legit as another article is saying they're from OXM so should they be moved to the page and not discussion ? [[User:Joey1666|Joey1666]]

== why aren't confirmed weapons named? ==
such as the g3 ,m416 ,m27 iar and many more????

:Can't put leaked stuff on the page, you'd know this if you read the rest of the discussion --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 17:21, 3 August 2011 (CDT)

::yeah thats why all the weapons used in the alpha were named in an official blog and yet there still not up here , so dont tell me i need to read the discussion.

:::Do forgive me. Link to this blog? If it's legit you're free to edit the page if you wish. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:12, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

:::I second the link request. Also, sign you posts. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:38, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

(TOSSED) RE-posting. You guys should simply look up a bit next time. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 11:18, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

:Except that's not official blog. It's fanblog that also [http://bf3blog.com/battlefield-3-weapons/ makes assumptions] and [http://bf3blog.com/2011/07/battlefield-3-50-leaked-alpha-screenshots/ postes leaked stuff]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:55, 4 August 2011 (CDT)
::Looks like I'm tossing that out the window. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 13:20, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

::An image which was leaked from the alpha, users of which were under a non-disclosure agreement which means we could get in trouble if we post it up here. Until we get an absolutely official list of weapons (most likely from future trailers and the public beta) the page will stay the same. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 12:27, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

== Setups ==
So what kinda weapons and setups do you guys think you're gonna use?
*Medic - G3 (or other BR) with a scope
*Engineer - M1014 (or other shotty)
*Support - M249 (or other belt fed) with a bipod
*Recon - MP7 (or other SMG/PDW) with a suppressor
*Sidearm - M1911

Obviously details will change as we get more info and after we actually play the game ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:21, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

:I'll probably play support mainly, it's what I spent 80% of the alpha doing and it's where I had the most fun. M240 with bipod, optic and flash suppressor will be my class of choice. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:29, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

:''Obviously details will change as we get more info and after we actually play the game''
:^ This --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:40, 4 August 2011 (CDT)

== PWNED #7 ==
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXaFw7aC9GE
A couple things I missed the first time I saw it, there's the M4, M1911, and G17, but also a Desert Eagle and MP5SD2. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:17, 6 August 2011 (CDT)

:Desert Eagle? [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigNo NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:48, 7 August 2011 (CDT)

::What's up with the Desert Eagle? It's a perfectly good combat pistol *trollface*. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:11, 7 August 2011 (CDT)

::: :( --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:22, 7 August 2011 (CDT)

::::Developers really need to stop putting large caliber handguns and revolvers in supposedly 'realistic' games, it just feels stupid. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:38, 7 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-oinyjsk0 I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?]'' --''Harold Francis "Dirty Harry" Callahan''

:::::[http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/handguns/usa/revolver/1287756474.jpg .357 Magnum Colt Whitetailer], camper's wet dream :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:45, 7 August 2011 (CDT)

:Their rack of guns at 3:06 (presumably airsoft for modelling purposes) contains an M14 and a FAMAS, might be 2 more to expect in the full game. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 17:00, 6 August 2011 (CDT)

::M1911 + M14 = Old School Pack 8) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:48, 7 August 2011 (CDT)

::Oops, I only thought to rewatch the range part, totally missed the FAMAS and M14 lol, good catch. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:15, 7 August 2011 (CDT)

== Pre-order Spectact kits ==

[http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/8472426507/2/tumblr_lpes8zstbf1r09ila][http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/8472426507/1/tumblr_lpes8zstbf1r09ila]

Some images of the exclusive Spectact kits you get via pre-order, you'll also notice that the Russian assault class soldier is holding an AEK-971

:Guess American Assault class gets XM8. Both weapons lost their respective trials. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:20, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

You do realise its just art , and probably wont be ingame --[[User:LukeWilliams010|LukeWilliams010]]

:Alright, will wait for confirmation regarding these weapons. Maybe it's just false alarm (and Desert Eagle too). --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:49, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

::Nah, the AEK will most likely be in, and the AK-74M will go to the PLR faction. There's nothing official, but there's the AEK (RU) and 74M(PLR), SKS as a sniper (PLR), T-72 tanks (PLR), and MP lines recorded in English, Russian and Farsi, that's confermation enough. I've seen no evidence of the XM8, but who knows, they did say there's 10 times the unlocks as BC2... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:30, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

:::Russian Forces clearly used AK-74M on Operation Metro map. The same is expected from final release. As for PLR, there are only silhouettes, and as such it's unclear which AK is used. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:50, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

::::The AEK will probably be a universal unlock for all factions if it is indeed in the final game (which I believe it will be, doubt they'd use a weapon in artwork and not include it in-game) --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 10:01, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

:::There most likely will be no AEK in final game. Those renders showing specact skins are pretty dated.

::::Fair enough, I didn't know that. Not too fussed either way, not a big fan of the weapon. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 16:09, 8 August 2011 (CDT)

Please no XM8, at least not in the SP. If it's an MP only gun, I could care less whether it's in or not, though. I'm buying this for the SP, which I'm hoping will be at least semi-realistic. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:18, 12 August 2011 (CDT)

:I kinda doubt they will put in the XM8, I'd rather see a full-size G36. :) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 17:25, 15 August 2011 (CDT)

==M16A3==
Demize99 tweeted that the M16A4 has been renamed to A3. Though we don't know if it still has all three modes, I'm thinking it doesn't. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 11:49, 11 August 2011 (CDT)

:Hmm. Full Auto M16A4 seems more plausible to me than Picatinny Railed M16A3. Maybe call it M16A5? xD --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:57, 11 August 2011 (CDT)

::Nope, the A3 is actually an A4 with full auto, I thought it was an A2-style for a long time, but looks it up, its hard to find good descriptions, but the A3 and A4 are the same except burst/auto. No one on this site gets that because this site calls every A3-style an A4 with an A2 lower. Why? Because that's what armourers built them with, since they don't have A3s. In games the weapon is whatever it's meant to be because it's not "built" on anything. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 13:09, 11 August 2011 (CDT)

:::Ah, now that's funny. Turns out to be true[http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/M16A3-A4.htm][http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/m16-m16a1-m16a2-m16a3-e.html]. Silly 'mericans couldn't get hold of manual burst firing, Military Command had to enforce it for them :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:21, 11 August 2011 (CDT)

::::Hey, those are the two sites I found! I just couldn't find them again :P Anyway, look at the description on the first site, it's worded very old, saying things like identical to A2, but also same as A4. That's actually the most info I've seen on an A3 in one place, adding to the confusion, since there isn't good info around. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:16, 11 August 2011 (CDT)

:::No, Alex is wrong and so are the two websites Masterius linked to. The M16A3 is a full auto A2 (only used by SEALs and Seabees in very limited numbers), NOT a full auto A4. IMFDB policy is to identify a weapon visually, not by what the game calls it. In terms of A3 vs A4, the M16 in this game is intended to be an A4, so that's what it should be called. At least for the moment anyway. If it turns out the devs decide to axe the burst mode, we can classify it a C7A1, but until we know more, it should stay listed as an A4. I'm changing it back. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 01:11, 12 August 2011 (CDT)

::::Uhm, Modern Firearms is respectable source. If you are claiming that it is not that means you have a better one? And the weapon can't be C7A1 since C7A1 is [http://world.guns.ru/assault/can/diemaco-c7a1-c7a2-c-e.html Model C7FT] (Railed Model 715 itself) and Full Auto M16A4 is [http://www.colt.com/mil/M16_2.asp Model 901] (Full Auto Railed Model 705 itself). And there are differences between 705 and 715[http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:25, 12 August 2011 (CDT)

:Now I want to know whether Demize99 tweeted about RPK and SVD... --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:25, 12 August 2011 (CDT)

::The first A3s had A2 uppers, but were later (and still are) issued with railed uppers, that's where people get confused. A3 = Rail. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:02, 12 August 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, I do have a better source. It's called Defense Industry Daily [http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m-16-rifle-purchases-04517/]. Additionally, if you take a look at the M16A2 section of the [[M16 rifle series]] page, it says the exact same thing. I also never said MF ''wasn't'' a respectable source, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's wrong in this case. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:25, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

:''Other MIL-STD-1913 rails can be found on the front grips '''et. al.''' of the '''A3s''' and A4s, where they mount useful items like flashlights, laser pointers, grip pods, et. al.''
:There too. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:59, 13 August 2011 (CDT)
:'''P.S.''' Besides, why does it feature ''Wikipedia'' in '''Additional Readings'''?

::"Front grip" as in around the barrel, like a Knight's Armament M5 RAS. It has Wikipedia as an additional read because DID's article doesn't feature the M16 rifle's entire life story; Wikipedia does. In fact, why don't you take a look at Wikipedia where it states that the A3 is a full auto A2 and uses DID's article to verify it? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 13:07, 22 September 2011 (CDT)

:::There are a number of different rifles designated as the M16A3 by the US military. The first is what Wikipedia refers to, the Colt Model 646 which is also known as the M16A2E3, which was introduced in small numbers at the same time as the M16A2 and is an A2 with an A1 lower and was only used by the Navy and Coast Guard. Then you have the flat-top Colt Model 901 which was introduced at the same time as the M16A4 (in 1994 I think) which is basically an M16A4 with full auto rather than burst. The following is what the US army website says about the A3 and A4: ""The M-16A3 is identical to the M-16A2 but has a removable carrying handle that is mounted on a Picatinny Rail (for better mounting of optics) and is without burst control. The M-16A4 is identical to the M-16A2 except for the removable carrying handle and Picatinny Rail." I would imagine that for modularity purposes the A3 in this game is the current version (Model 901). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 13:22, 22 September 2011 (CDT)

::::Wow, thanks, that really clears it up, so we could call the full auto A2 the M16A2E3, and the full auto A4 the M16A3, that makes sure they have different names, right? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:42, 22 September 2011 (CDT)

::::Interesting, found [http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/cb1/14234_ch3.pdf information about M16A1 and M16A2E3] on [http://www.seacadets.org/ U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps website]. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:31, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::That PDF is actually wrong, as it states that the M16A2E3 is burst fire rather than full auto. Here is the [http://www.scribd.com/doc/29272650/MIL-R-71135-Rifle-5-56MM-M16A2E3-1992 US Army Military Specification] for the M16A2E3 from 1992 (go to page 4, and look at the fire selector section). Although calling the earlier rifle the M16A2E3 takes away the confusion, it can still correctly be called the M16A3 as it was reclassified as this, kind of like how the M16A2 was originally the M16A1E1. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 06:11, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

::::::True, I guess someone just got lazy and didn't give the flat top version a new name, so the 646 and 901 are BOTH A3s. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:47, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

::::::Editors probably made a mistake in ''that'' part because everywhere ''else'' it says automatic fire (right from the beginning). --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:19, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

:Heh, and after more searching: [http://www.military-today.com/firearms/m16.htm] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:21, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

::Like I said, the very first A3s had A2 uppers, and after that they had rails. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 07:17, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

:::Put it this way, the only times it says something about not having a top rail, it doesn't. What I mean is, it always says something really vague like "full auto version of the A2", never mentioning specifics. I have not yet read somewhere that says that the A3 has a fixed carry handle, but have seen plenty that say the opposite. The problem was someone decided a long time ago that this site was for guns that are in movies only, not a gun wiki, so since the A3 is not in any civvie hands, and therefore not in any movies, it shouldn't be mentioned. All "A3"s in movies are A4s with A2 lowers, that is what the armourer used. However with the addition of newer weapons, and therefore newer entries, and the addition of games, where the guns don't really exist and therefore ARE anything, things are being added that never were before. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Mk.18 is only a military weapon, right? That means that, say, in the first Transformers movie Josh Duhamel's Mk.18 wouldn't have been a real Mk.18, but some Civvie M4 with a short barrel and such, made to look exactly the same as one. But that doesn't make it a Mk.18, however it IS listed as such. I may be wrong and it might actually be a Mk.18, but then Canadian C7-series is a better example: NO civvies have them. Period. But it still has an entry, as it is in Reality Mod, among a few others. Now we see the problem with not having an M16A3 entry: there might not be any in civvie hands, but there are some in games, like BF3, but COD4 singleplayer comes to mind as well, and I'm sure there are others. Hmm, I guess what this comes down to is we need an M16A3 listing on the M16 page. All of them should be listed, even if the only info is the name, a sentence about the weapon, and mention that it has never been in anything, otherwise we get stuff like everyone on the site getting false info about a particular weapon, and this happens. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:14, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

::::That ''is'' specific. "Full auto version of the A2" means it's externally identical to the A2, but has fully automatic. I don't see how that's vague. If you've got a credible source saying A3s are "now issued" with flat top uppers, I'd like to see it. But if you look at the pattern of M16 rifle development, it's very likely that such a modification would bear a designation other than A3 (the only two exceptions to this in the platform's history were the Air Force's 11.5" barreled XM177s and when the Army dropped the Model 777 M4 for the Model 920 M4. Josh Duhamal used an M933 in Transformers, not a Mark 18. Mark 18-type carbines with 10.3" or 10.5" barrels can be had by anyone with proper licensing. But the reason we have Mark 18 mock-ups in movies listed as Mark 18s is because, like I already pointed out, it's IMFDB policy to identify the weapon on a visual basis. If it ''looks'' like a Mark 18, we ''call it'' a Mark 18 unless some other way of concretely identifying the weapon (such as an armorer ID) comes along. Your argument about civilian acquisition is a dead end since armorers like MPM are civilians, yet have fully automatic M4s, AK-47s, M60s, and so on in their possession. The only games I've played with full auto M16A4s are CoD4 and MoH, the pages for both of which identify the rifle as an M16''A4''. If you want an A3 category added, either take a look at the [[Talk:M16_rifle_series#Do_well_really_need_to_have_an_.22A2.22_and_.22A3.22_category.3F|M16 rifle talk page to see why it was deleted]] (where MPM himself states that the M16A3 has the same upper receiver as the A2) or come to the forum and state your case as to why said category should be reinstated. But as per IMFDB policy, the M16 on this page should be classified as an A4. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 00:14, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::As soon as my problems with registration are solved, I'll bring this discussion to the light. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:44, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::Bah. Is there any other way to contact forum administration other than through the forum? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:02, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

::::::Leave a message on [[User:MT2008|MT2008's]] talk page about it. He's an administrator on the forum. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 13:01, 22 September 2011 (CDT)

== Both M16s ==
Demize confirms multiple M16s! I'm expecting the A3 and A4 obviously [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:05, 12 August 2011 (CDT)

:Hmm, that's pretty cool. =) - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 20:32, 12 August 2011 (CDT)

:Now that's something I would like to take a look at in Beta :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:44, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

::He also confirmed not everything's in the Beta, but hopefully these two will be. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:22, 13 August 2011 (CDT)

:::I see very little point in including 2 M16 models, just takes up space that could be filled with something new :\ --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 04:52, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

::::The automatic one will probably be the starting weapon to balance it against another starting weapon, and burst fire one will probably be for everyone to use as an unlock. You see, so that to please everyone :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:52, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::I gueessssss, suppose they don't have to remodel it or anything either, just change the weapon's code/animations. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 05:58, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

::::::I think the A4 should be the starter and the A3 should be the unlock, makes much more sense to me. The starter ARs in COD4 were the M16A4 and AK-47 and that was just fine. Or maybe you can modify a base M16 into other variants. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:09, 14 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::::I guessed it right: Demize has confirmed that M16A3 will be the default US assault rifle for the Assault kit[http://twitter.com/#!/Demize99/status/102776416898265088] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:00, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

== Gamescom trailers and official gameplay vids ==
We've got official footage for 2 weapons, one already known (MP-443), and one all-new (SCAR-H CQC with Grippod and Aimpoint optic). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDDfPxF3EFE . In the Co-Op live gameplay from the devs, one of them picks up an unknown pump action shotgun with a 4+1 capacity.--[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 11:06, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

:Nice! Wonder if SCAR-L in? Oh, and they give civilian shotguns to military again! *shakes head* Already noticed that with M1014 before. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:44, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

There isnt 2 m16 models , where do you get your info lol there is one the m16a3

== INCOMING ==

[http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/planetbattlefield.gamespy.com/images/news3/fact_sheet2.jpg *kaboom*]

EA just released the fact sheet with all the weapons/attachments/specs listed, there's the weapon page.

EDIT:[http://planetbattlefield.gamespy.com/fullstory.php?id=165281 and here's your proof]
--[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 13:22, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

Is that M39 the Finnish Mosin-Nagant? Or is there another battle rifle that uses the M39 designation? Also, that list is missing the Groza bullpup AR that one dev caught one of the testers reloading.--[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 13:42, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

The M39 refers to the M14 variant used by the Marines [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M39_Enhanced_Marksman_Rifle (this)]. And the Groza bullpup was actually the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-91 A-91] (not the 9A-91 from BC2... Russian weapon designations are confusing)

--[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 13:56, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

:Good find, kinda wish I hadn't looked at it though XD --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 14:11, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

:: AHAHAHAHA, "SCAR H CQB" made my day. But at least they wrote ACOG, not ACOG Sight, nor ACOG Scope. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:30, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

:::That is what FN Herstal calls it [http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=184&backPID=182&productID=10&pid_product=232&pidList=182&categorySelector=1&detail] though does it really belong in the carbines section? I would have thought it still belonged with the battle rifles. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 14:38, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

::::They call it CQC, C for Combat not B for Battle. But calling it CQB is still more correct than calling it simply SCAR-H, like in Modern Warfail 2, because that usually refers to SCAR-H STD, the one w/ the normal length barrel. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 14:47, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::I see, fair enough. As you said though, at least they were slightly closer than some games. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 14:51, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

Well, this does nothing to allay my fears about it being a generic AMURIKA V EVUL ARABS AND KOMMIES shooter. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 16:37, 16 August 2011 (CDT)
: Also, looks like y'all missed them calling it the M93R, rather than just the 93R like it should be. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 16:39, 16 August 2011 (CDT)

::A few things; first, it looks like this list is a little dated, as Demize confirmed both M16s, but even though details might have changed, I bet this is a 100% list. Second, remember this doesn't include stuff like the M320 (as it's a Gadget in terms of game), and mounted weapons. Third, I'm assuming the M39 (M14) will be semi only, as only it and the SKS are in the Battle Rifle section, with the G3 moved to Assault Rifles. Similarly, I'm betting the Glock 18 and Beretta 93R will be auto and burst only, otherwise the Glock 17 and M9 would be pretty useless. Fourth, notice that there is a P90 AND a P90TR. I'm thinking if you attach an RDS to the P90TR, it becomes the standard one, like COD4's MP5SD. Lastly, what's a T44 pistol? I did a quick search and all I got was this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/T44.jpg Oh, also, I'm totally using the M82 with irons, just for kicks :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:49, 16 August 2011 (CDT)
:::I'm thinking the "T44" might be the sidearm for Iranian forces, like the KH2002 will be their assault rifle. I don't know what it could be referring to, though; as far as I know, Iran uses P226 copies as their standard sidearm.

This looks ''really'' suspicious to me. No G36E (as was expected from BF2 (L85 too)), no SG 550 (as was confirmed by Demize), no multiple M16 (wasn't that said by Demize?), "Battle Rifles" actually being Marksman Rifle (M39) and Semi-Automatic Carbine (SKS), several weapons being ported from BC2 (AEK-971, A-91, PP-2000, Saiga-20K, MP-412) instead of BF2 (Bizon or Vityaz, Saiga-12K) for no reason; Beretta 93R and Glock 18 are actually law enforcement automatic pistols and will overshadow regular pistols... And T44? WW2 prototype gun being put in pistols?

If this "fact" sheet was putted on [http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/ official Battlefield Blog], I would have believed it. As of now I take it with a grain of salt. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:38, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

: The sheet lists an SG553 in the carbines section. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 05:14, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

::That would be like someone saying: "We want M4 in BC2!" and someone responded: "There is M16 there". One weapon is assault rifle and other is carbine. They shouldn't cancel each other. Really. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:23, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

Also, how exactly do you think the "straight pull bolt" under the weapon accessories could work? Either it will be some bullshit about somehow putting a straight pull bolt on bolt actions to increase ROF which will annoy the hell out of me, or I suppose it could be putting a straight pull bolt on assault/battle rifles to increase accuracy and turn them into sort of sniper rifles. Either way, I don't like it. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:32, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

T44 is what they are calling the [[Taurus Model 44]] revolver. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:35, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

:Hmm, so the revolver unlocks are Russian .357 Magnum and Brazilian .44 Magnum... American .357 Magnum like Colt and S&W would have been more reasonable, honestly... But yeah, some wouldn't want revolvers in military shooters at all. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:52, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

::Sigh, more revolvers. I'm assuming that the straight pull bolt will be for snipers as opposed to assault/battle rifles, either for bolt actions to increase ROF (even though straight pulls are supposedly more tiring than turn bolts) or for the semi-auto snipers for a bit more accuracy? Teeny tiny list of machine guns, sadface. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:23, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

== Weapon Reloads ==

Anybody seen the GamesCom Coop-Demo? I just noticed how the guy reloads his empty shotgun. First round into the chamber, all the following into the tube. I think they got it right this time. [[User:Killerpixel|Killerpixel]] 10:08, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

:I didn't see that one, but I saw the M1014 reload in the leaked alpha footage, and it does do that :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 10:19, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

::Tactical pistol reloads too :o --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 10:30, 17 August 2011 (CDT)

== MP7A1 Alpha Gameplay ==

The amount of Alpha gameplay videos on Youtube is insane, but in one of them I did see an MP7A1. Looked like the same model used in the Medal of Honor reboot. It was only seen for a moment, so hopefully someone can add more information? [[User:Miyazawa|Miyazawa]] 22:11, 18 August 2011 (CDT)

:The MP7 is setup the same way as the MoH one, using the stock, grip, and pistol sights, but obviously has a proper empty reload. :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:44, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

I have tried to add the MP7A1 on the BF3 weapon listing underneath the submachine guns but someone keeps on deleting it. I havent uploaded an image from youtube because honestly I dont know how, can someone help out with this and stop deleting this post as the weapon IS CONFIRMED. [[User:Valant]] 2:58PM, September 9, 2011 (PST)
: No, it's not. You're not allowed to post anything from the Alpha build. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 17:18, 20 September 2011 (CDT)

Valant here reposting MP7 gameplay, and to reply YES I CAN post because most weapons you see on page from the alpha/PAX gameshows. In fact for the most part all of the weapons should be deleted because they are from the same build. I have provided a link to show first hand footage. Once the game is released and this is fact checked, the comment I left before can be deleted. Here is the link again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuvvdBhH0r4

It's just not getting into your head, isn't it? Screencaps from non-official/leaked footage are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. SO yeah, it's nice and all that you're linking that in the discussion, but please DO NOT edit the main page again until beta comes out. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 17:51, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

Oh REALLY? Because last time I checked there are several screen caps and images that are of some low quality camera taking a picture of a screen DURING ALPHA! Check the muther f*****g G36C section, or The UMP45, the AK74M, the DIO KH2002, and G3A3. These are all weapons from the same build of the game and these have pages, ergo the MP7 should have its own section. Now, im off to put the post BACK UP so suck it.

:You are confusing Closed Alpha with NDA and Game Shows (Expos) intended for public. Those ones are categorised as Pre-alpha‎ (expos before Alpha) and Pre-beta (expos after Alpha). And you are just asking to get reported. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:03, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

.....reported.....really....well then if thats the case as I posted on another MP7 related discussion below Ill wait till the "official" news about it comes out
== Full Auto Carbine ==

Been reading and watching videoa and they all have the M4A1 listed as a carbine. Does anyone know if the M4A1 fires full auto, three round bursts, or a single shot when fired?

The M4A1 is a carbine that is full auto or semi, just like real life, is that wierd? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:44, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

== Carbines ==
What makes me really happy is they got the term Carbine right; the M4A1 is an M16 Carbine, the AKS-74U is an AK-74 Carbine, the SCAR-H CQC is a SCAR Carbine, the G36C is a G36 Carbine, the SG553 is a SG550 Carbine, and, well, you could call the A-91 an AKM Carbine I guess. That's also why the relatively short HK416 is in the Assault Rifle section and not the Carbine one: it's not a Carbine. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:52, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

:'''Trivia Information''':

:IRL in addition to Assault Rifle and Carbine category, there is also so called Sub-Carbine category (that is, shorter than Carbine). Four of the above mentioned pairs have three guns in these categories (and three of these four pairs even have additionally Automatic Rifle/Light Machine Gun variant but that's a different story). And here is the list:

:M4 Commando < M4 < M16
:AKS-74U < AK-105 < AK-74(M)
:G36C < G36K(E) < G36(E)
:SG 553 < SG 551 < SG 550

:And to which category HK416 belongs, [http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/hk416_specs.asp depends on the variant]. Quite a list, isn't it? ;)

:And while AKM didn't have official carbine (there was [http://www.red-alliance.net/forum/index.php?topic=11481.0 a prototype] and that's it), SKS can be considered one somewhat :P

:Maybe that was interesting to read :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 16:45, 19 August 2011 (CDT)

== Again... ==

What's with the people using this "fact sheet" to clutter the main page with weapon titles. Can't they wait for more substantial material before adding stuff? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 15:02, 20 August 2011 (CDT)

:Agreed; pages that are just lists of weapons without pictures or really any info look terrible, let's wait for them to show up. The people who care can find it here on the talk page, or Google :/ [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:20, 20 August 2011 (CDT)

:Leaked info is not allowed, and entries with no pics or info aren't very much liked either. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:29, 23 August 2011 (CDT)

:^ Precisely. Official artwork, renders, graphical announcements (like that for Physical Warfare Pack, or Battlelog), screenshots, trailers, gameplay videos; screenshots made from official trailers and gameplay videos. All those things will do. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:50, 24 August 2011 (CDT)

==UMP==

you can see it in a video from nvidia, the player to the right of the interview, you can see him using a UMP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiCNdEYCtgs

unkown what calibre, but im just gonna assume its UMP45 --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 06:38, 21 August 2011 (CDT)

==HK416==

another video from nvidia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUyIIIKta44

if you pause at 0:30 it looks like the HK416--[[User:Sike|Sike]] 06:42, 21 August 2011 (CDT)

:M27 IAR, to be specific. Based on the HK416, yes, but not a normal HK416. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 12:25, 21 August 2011 (CDT)
:: Well the Hk146 is in, it appeared on the battlelog stat page. --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 09:25, 22 August 2011 (CDT)

== Weird Weapon ==

What is that weapon the guy starts using at 2:24, in this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiCNdEYCtgs ? It looks like an AS VAL, but that optic setup is weird. I wish they sticked to the real life russian optics, instead of creating rail-attaching versions. E.g.: The PK-AS (russian holographic) is actually offset to the left side of the gun, not aligned with the bore or mounted on a rail.[[User:Gonzaga|Gonzaga]] 08:20, 21 August 2011 (CDT)

:Maybe it's quite hard to get hands on real Russian weapons in Sweden, so work is done with what's available... Oh, and PK-AS isn't holographic sight, it's reflex sight. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:56, 21 August 2011 (CDT)

:It might be the VSS. You can use iron sights on a sniper rifle so they might allow you to use reflex and holographic sights as well.

:There's no VSS, there's a VAL, but this guy's an Engineer, so it doesn't matter either way. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 12:14, 22 August 2011 (CDT)

== Fact Sheet ==

People, while it has been confirmed that the fact sheet is indeed official, it's also been confirmed that it '''IS NOT A FINAL LIST''', it only shows the equipment available '''SO FAR'''. So don't worry, I'm sure many more equipment options will come (I hope these include an MP5). [[User:Gonzaga|Gonzaga]] 20:34, 22 August 2011 (CDT)

:Well, Demize wouldn't confirm whether the Karkand guns will be able to be used in standard BF3, but the way he said it seemed to hint they might, so I'm betting we'll see the MP5 and PP-19 Bizon. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 21:26, 22 August 2011 (CDT)

Gonzaga that's pretty much false hope , because there not going to release an official fact sheet and then add "many more guns" its not even wishful thinking its just stupid.and Alex when somethings is unconfirmed that doesn't mean its automatically going to be in the game, and if its anything like bfbc2 which it is, the guns will be seperate like the Vietnam expansion.

: First, no need to call me stupid. And second, do you really think they can't add more stuff to the game 3 months away from the release? Not even the beta is out! Plus, by equipment I didn't necessarily mean more weapons. I guess you thought so because my example was a weapon.[[User:Gonzaga|Gonzaga]] 18:03, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

I did not call you stupid, I called your idea stupid.You really think that there going too add tonnes more "equipment" after they've released an official statement than that is stupid.

:What's stupid here is you not signing your posts. :P - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 12:06, 27 August 2011 (CDT)

::Lol owned :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:47, 27 August 2011 (CDT)

== SKS has a plastic stock ==
Demize confirmed. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 13:36, 23 August 2011 (CDT)

== Battlefield 3 full weapons list ==
It is up on official [http://bf3blog.com/2011/08/complete-list-of-battlefield-3-weapons/ bf3 blog].

:That's not the official blog. As it says in the description, it's a fan site. [[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 05:21, 24 August 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah, but it is news of an actual official announcement. --[[User:Nomad175|Nomad175]] 00:00, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

:::The announcement was leaked, meaning that the information it contains has no place on the main page. Until we get official imagery of each weapon, they should not be added to the main page. Just makes everything look a bit messy and half-arsed if you ask me. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 06:49, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

== About SVD ==

So were there any news from Demize or some official material released that confirmed that the magazine for SVD was fixed or not? Should it have been changed to NDM-86 on the main page? Only seen it in leaked Alpha (which ''could'' have been a temporal state, considering that SVU in BC2 had proper magazine (SVD and SVU use the same one), and this one probably ported from MoH for testing purposes). --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 12:35, 24 August 2011 (CDT)

== Battleblog #8 ==
Sig 553 and Strela/Igla launcher confirmed in a post on the official Battlefield blog [http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/battlefield_bad_company/archive/2011/08/25/battleblog-8-build-your-weapon-of-choice.aspx] --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 10:46, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

:Heh, suppressive fire with carbine :) And the modelled launcher is [[SA-7 Grail|Strela-2]] (NATO reporting name: SA-7 Grail) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:22, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

:: Thought as much, was the disk-shape thingy at the front that gave it away. <3 the weapon customisation that BF3 will offer though, gonna be awesome. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 14:46, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

:::Well, the primary indicator for Strela-2 is that, errr, under-barrel thingy with tube-and-spike shape while every other model is ball-and-tube. Here is a nice chart: [http://blueprintbox.com/watermark-gif.php?img=./data/media/384/sa-14-strela-gremlin.gif]
:::And yeah, customisation is great \o/ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 15:22, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

::::That's the bit I meant, forgive my extremely technical description XD --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 17:06, 25 August 2011 (CDT)

:::::Oh, heh, right. Thought you meant the launcher tube itself :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:47, 26 August 2011 (CDT)

The incoming weapon modification options seem very exciting....lots of options to tailor your weapon to your specifics. However, the only detail about the blog that keeps me sceptical is the fact that you need to unlock every feature for each weapon individually. Knowing that from MW2 that would mean hours and hours and hours of playing with just one weapon to finally unlock the parts needed to tailor it to your specifics, only to then unlock the next weapon you've been longing for and then you need to start again from scratch with that weapon. Rather frustrating IMO. Would a better idea to make the modification parts a global unlock, so that once you unlock say supressors with an assault rifle, it counts for ALL other assault rifles too...same with LMG's, Pistols, Shotgungs, etc. [[User:WARthog|WARthog]] 03:05, 26 August 2011 (CDT)

== "T44" ==
Found it; 2nd video, 21 seconds in. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:13, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

Link please? --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 09:25, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

OOPS, sorry, here:
http://ob-game.blogspot.com/2011/08/battlefield-3-three-videos-from-pax.html
[[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 13:57, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

ummm you're wrong thats an mp412 , the scope also looks russian which gives it away

:Actually it doesn't look like the Mp412 at all or the T44, it looks a little different, take a look at this image I snapped of it
: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/mp412orcoltpython.jpg/
: To me it almost looks like a Colt Python from Black Op's, notice the iron sights, front and rear (the white markings) and the silhouette of the barrel and cylinder as well as the positioning of the grip, it's hard to say but my vote is towards a Colt Python. DICE did say they were going to add Faction specific weapons and if you look a little earlier the guy was using a Stinger. I'd think a Colt Python .357 Magnum would go nicely as a US analogue to the Russian MP412 .357 Magnum. Also to the Scope, it could just be a Russian style scope attached to a US weapon, they did say that the customization was huge so it's a possibility [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 12:47, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

Its an mp412 , if it was a python it would have grooves down the barrel housing which it doesn't its solid like the mp412 also I noticed the break action latch near the iron sight, which also corresponds to the mp412 , the python does not have a break open design. *Edit* also the colt python is not in the game.

:The devs didn't say there isn't any other revolver in the game, thus shouldn't you, Persistent Mr. Anonymous. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:17, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

:Well, it's NOT a 412, but it could be a Python, some S&W, the Raging Bull, I don't know. The lighting's wierd, but it looks stainless to me, which would be good if the MP412 is black. The SKS, which is synth, has been spotted with an EOTech, so unlocking American optics for Russian guns and vice versa is confirmed. I'm thinking every optic, with the exception of the 6x and 12x sniper scopes, can be used on anything. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:33, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

Ok, if you cant indentify that gun, then you shouldn't really be on the site to be honest, because you can clearly tell that's a mp412 the colt python has barrel housing grooves this doesnt it solid like an mp412 , you can also see the break action latch is,colt pythons dont have this because they are not break reloaders. *Edit* and how can you say that it is stainless? its clearly black with a synthetic grip.
:In that case, by your rationale you should leave right now. Ignoring everything else about the gun, look at the muzzle end. This pistol has a rounded barrel with a raised rib. The Mp412 does not. Also, the locking indents on the cylinder are wrong for a MP412, where they are small cuts coming from the rear of the cylinder, rather than the more traditional ones shown here. The part of the frame that meets the rear of the cylinder is also wrong for a MP412, which would have a "step" rather than a smooth ramp where it widens to the width of the cylinder. Due to the motion blur ghosting on this image it is really hard to tell anything about it so we will just have to wait and see. Also, sign your posts and stop being so condescending. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 03:22, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

Also, just noticed that in the same clip the person in front of you has a G36C, so that can go ahead and be confirmed, along with the Stinger for that matter. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 03:47, 2 September 2011 (CDT)
[[File:Battlefield 3 Tourney PAX Prime Day 2 Wrap Up.mp4 000021722.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
[[File:Battlefield 3 Tourney PAX Prime Day 2 Wrap Up.mp4 000021255.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

:Hmm, these are official videos, not DICE ones, but offical meaning by a site/company etc; should they be added to the main page? It's kind of a grey area. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:25, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

::PAX and NVIDIA are definitely can be considered official source just as E3 and IGN. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:40, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

ok lets just leave it as the t44/mp412 for now, if we cant agree on what gun it is, then theres no point arguing senselessly we'll have to wait until the game comes out to properly identify it --[[User:Lukewilliams010|Lukewilliams010]] 14:10, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

==M4 and M4A1==

Was just browsing through twitter when i noticed something.

http://twitter.com/#!/Demize99/status/108437158804717568

both the M4 and M4A1 is in. like how the the M16A3 and A4 are in. --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 10:54, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

:Now that's amuses me because I had ''exact'' the same thoughts. Seems I wasn't alone xD --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:10, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

::Seems to me more that BF3 will have much more weapons than we thought. Well, let's just pick one up and kick some asses with it :) --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 11:12, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

I think its pretty cool they are getting multiple variants for each gun. Heres hoping for an AK-47 unlock.--[[User:N-10 Aden|N-10 Aden]] 12:06, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

On the same twitter he makes a point of saying that the M4A1 was designed for special forces whereas the standard weapon that would be found being used by Marines is the M4. My spidey sense is telling me that the standard weapons will be the burst M4 and M16A4, and they will be upgradable to full auto M4A1 and M16A3 (flat-top receiver won't tally and the number will make no sense to the layman but whatever). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 16:46, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

:Nope, he already said the full auto ones are default. But I'd figure in SP we're more likely to see the burst ones. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:31, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

::SP: M4 for regular Marines, M4A1 for USSOCOM units, something like that. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:50, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

:In any case, it's awesome they added variants of many weapons. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 17:46, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

::Indeed. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:28, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

Can't remember where I saw it from, probably from Battlefield wiki but I remember seeing that the weapon variants were based on each Classes Kit selection. So for example, take the Assault class, as it's being merged with the Medic Class, Players would have the option to equip either a Grenade Launcher of carry around a Medkit. So for example, an M16A3 could be default setting with a Medkit as a piece of equipment but the M16A4 is used when attaching a grenade launcher. But that's just my theory [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 12:37, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

::It's not really merging, they're just going back to how they had it in BF2142 (Assault = Medic + Assault, Recon = Sniper + Special Forces, Engineer = Anti-tank + Engineer and Support = um, Support, his main "thing" being his extra droppable things like a portable shield and a sentry gun). In 2142 every Assault had a Medkit since you don't want to give your medics the option of being even more useless, the optional item for the Assault class was the defib. The fastest way to get TK'd as Assault was to have someone realise you weren't carrying one. I imagine this one will be the same, Support will always have an ammo box and assault will always have a health box. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

==PWP Trailer==

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ukxgldpOo&feature=feedu

warning, containts footage from operation metro they some players may find offensive. --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 08:58, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

:That is... ''SKS''? Reminds me of AK-47 in MW2 *sadface*
:Another thing noted: incorrect reticles for M145 and PKS-07 are still in... --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 09:27, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

::Remember though DICE did say that you can "customize" your weapon, that might be a SKS just heavily modified by the player rather than appearing as the "actual" weapon. Who know's if we're lucky, the SKS might be featured as standard in it's default config [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 13:12, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

:::As much as I would want it to be, I doubt that what DICE meant by customization. BF3 so far doesn't seem to have customization as elaborate as, for example, [[Ghost Recon: Future Soldier]]. Thus this tacticool SKS is probably the only one *sadface* --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 13:44, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

:"DAO-12" -.-... OMG! What the heck is their deal with the DAO-12? Can't they just call it how it supposed to be called?! --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 10:01, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

::DICE seems to have obsession with this "designation" as it tracks way back from Battlefield 2 (2005) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:16, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

DAO-12 was used because of a legal conflict with Armsel using the Striker name, it became a fan favorite so they kept the name. --[[User:Ghostdigga|Ghostdigga]] 14:09, 2 September 2011 (CDT)
i asked Demize on twitter and he replied saying it was a homage to BF2 --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 14:12, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

:Exactly, and we all know how bad most gamers are at identifying weapons, the MW3 crowd widely believed the ACR was a SCAR because the ACR was tan (in MW2 the SCAR was tan and the ACR was this ugly grey colour, and now the ACR is tan). If they renamed it Striker a lot of BF players would think it was a different gun :/ [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:20, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

::Er, that doesn't really sound like a bad thing :/ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 15:29, 2 September 2011 (CDT)

i asked demize about it, and he said they named it the DAO-12 as a homage to BF2 --[[User:Sike|Sike]] 07:57, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

== M39 EMR confirmed ==
I asked demize if there was an m14 battle rifle and he replied ,and said there is a M39 EMR so that can now be added to the weapons list.--[[User:Lukewilliams010|Lukewilliams010]] 16:07, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

:He also said SG 550 would be in, official blog showed SG 553. And SKS is "SKS". We need official ''illustrated'' material. As soon as it is available - go ahead, put it in. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 16:29, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

:Yup, if we don't have a picture, don't add it, even if it's not leaked. It's not like we won't have everything up pretty soon. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:53, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

== M4A1/M16 Gas block question ==

I've seen quite a few topics concerning the lack of a visible gas block on the M4's and M16's in a number of shooters, and I was wondering if it was possible that the gas blocks could be either low-profile gas blocks that were either not visible or were actually under the RAS, or if the gas blocks were actually integrated into an after-market RAS. It seems odd to me that developers would repeatedly make the same mistake over different games in different franchises.

:It's possible to just remove the front sight without removing the gas block on a standard M16 rifle and M4 but it'd be a little exposed. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 17:23, 10 September 2011 (CDT)

::Do you mean with a hacksaw? Aren't the gas block and front sight a single piece of metal? It is however possible to get a low profile gas block (relatively easy replacement) that only extends above the barrel to the height of the gas tube plus a few mm, so that certain free floating RIS systems can be mounted over the top of it. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 18:39, 10 September 2011 (CDT)

:::That was my question; with all the Military consultants they have coming in and looking at this stuff, I'd always assumed that they had just modeled an after market RIS and low-profile gas-block.
--[[User:Hominis Solus|Hominis Solus]] 21:58, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

:I wonder why developers won't just model Flat Top Mounts\Risers on the sights for M4s\M16s ? That's how the problem is solved IRL, including in U.S. Military. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:16, 11 September 2011 (CDT)
::I'd imagine that most modellers don't realise that the front sight is also the gas block, so they see no problem in removing it for aesthetic/gameplay purposes. 99% of gamers probably don't realise either. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 09:15, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

:::Both the modellers and the gamers doesn't supposed to care about this kind of things, only people like us, it can concern. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 09:31, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

:It was well after I got into learning about firearms and such that I found out the front sight (gas block) and stock tube (buffer tube) are required for the AR series to function, so you can't remove either pretty much. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 21:53, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

::It's true that the stock front sight post is also the same piece of metal as the gas block, but you can remove them so long as you put a new gas block on.
--[[User:Hominis Solus|Hominis Solus]] 21:58, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, I meant you can't just take it off :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 23:30, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

== A-91 ==
Confirmed to be the more modern 5.56mm version by Demize. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 22:08, 11 September 2011 (CDT)

== Guillotine Teaser Trailer ==
Anyone else seen it? There's a mortar that the player-character uses to send up flares (I think they called them illumination rounds) and I think the player-character also uses a Mk. 17 with some sort of 4x scope. Sorry, I'm still fairly new to this. [[User:GunEnthusiast|GunEnthusiast]] 05:27, 12 September 2011 (CDT)
:I think the mortar is an M224, and yes it was a Mk.17 with an ACOG (magazine looked a bit small in the mag-well, but could be the angle as could only be seen when climbing the wall). Also, it looks like the guy who is stabbed at the end of the video is carrying a G3A3 with an ACOG. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 07:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

== M16 series reload animation ==

I'm fairly new to this site, though I've been following it closely to see the development of the firearms that will appear in Battlefield 3.
I've been reading that a lot of you guys are expecting an accurate portrait of the M16 series reload animation in the game. I just wanted to ask how do you properly reload an M16 in real life? It is my understanding that when the rifle is empty, you load it by pulling the charging handle. But when there is a bullet still in the chamber you just need to press the bolt catch. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I just want to get this clarified since I've never been able to understand the reload mechanic of the M16.
[[User:Santos|Santos]] 01:14, 16 September 2011 (CDT)
:With the exception of loading the gun for the first time or clearing a jam, you never need to touch the charging handle. If you are reloading from a partial magazine, there will be a round in the chamber so all you need to do is drop out the magazine and push a new one in. When you you empty the magazine in an M16 type weapon the bolt locks back automatically, so you drop out the magazine, put a new one in, and then all you need to do is push the bolt release on the left side to let the bolt go forwards (you can also push the forward assist if you feel like it). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 04:20, 16 September 2011 (CDT)
::Well, the third reason you might is if you just picked it up off the ground, to check it's still mechanically sound. Though that sorta falls under clearing a jam. Edit: Also you might part-pull it on drawing it if you're into brass checks, though given how often FPS characters change weapons habitually brass-checking on draw would probably indicate a very short memory. "Yep, still there from ten seconds ago, how bout that." [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 02:09, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

You could rack the charging handle if you like, but the proper way to reload and empty M16 type weapon is to just slap the bolt release. I call it the ping pong paddle. A lot of games forgets about little things like reloads for weapons [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 01:02, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

== Who removed the MP7!?! ==

Okay, who took away the MP7 from the submachine gun catergory? I spent a whole 20 minutes adding that section of the article and some guy just deleted it. Why? It was really in the game and not in any way spammy or vestigial. Whoever took away put it back. Come on, I don't want to remake the whole thing.

THere are NO official images of it. And no official video footage has featured it. Don't post images from the Alpha --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 03:20, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

But the fact remains that it has been seen in the game, and it was already on the page before I made the changes.

Why can't I use the Alpha? I don't know if there is or is not a rule regarding alpha version footage and stuff. I thought the purpose of this site was to chronicle what weapons were used in what movies/games/TV/Anime. If I have evidence that the MP7 is in BF3, why does it matter whether or not it was from the Alpha or official footage? The image I used was from a gameplay video I saw on Youtube. Does this mean no one can use their own gameplay videos?

:No, it means that you have to wait for officially released material or for the game to actually come out. This applies to leaked gameplay footage, images from leaked betas, dubious leaked information in general (eg the MW3 leaks from Kotaku) unapproved on-set photos, leaked movie footage like that infamous cut of ''X-Men Origins: Wolverine'', and so on. Building an article is not a race, if we have to wait to confirm something is official, that's what we do. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:49, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

I suppose that makes sense, I'm gonna keep that in mind when making contributions in the future.

I thought anything to do with the Alpha was under an NDA anyway? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 04:31, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah, if you look at the screencap he posted the guy who leaked it deliberately blacked out his own name. Obviously knew he shouldn't have been recording it and posting it in the first place. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 04:47, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

Okay, for the last frickin' time. Please DO NOT add weapons that are not in any official gameplay vids/trailers/screenshots, until they are.--[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 14:02, 20 September 2011 (CDT)

@ HashiriyaR32: Hey! I was also someone who tried adding the section of the MP7. Its in the alpha videos but to be fair, so is every freaking gun that is on this page! The only videos that are available are the ones from the alpha. Seriously take the amount of time it takes to delete the post and go onto youtube and see for yourself! In fact, after posting this I will repost the MP7 with a link to the youtube video...Also FYI I happen to love this website and for all it stands for and I try to monitor several different games to make sure the info is correct, I would never want to add something that didnt exist in a videogame/movie. Valant

:What? Nothing on the page is from the alpha, everything's from screenshots, trailers, concept art, or official videos, like EA Pwned, IGN, etc. If you don't believe me, give me an example. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:52, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

@Valant, its as simple as this. To take part in the Alpha you had to sign a non disclosure agreement. That means that any footage that you have seen was illegally distributed. Until guns show up in an official (and legal) source, they shouldn't be listed here. The MP7 may very well be a weapon in the game, but the point is that at this point that information has not been publicly release, to say nothing of the fact that legal screenshots cannot be posted on here. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 19:11, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

:Right, and as soon as the Beta is out, we can add everything, it's only a week-ish, and besides, WE all know the MP7 & others are in, and they can be mentioned on the talk page, just the official page can't have it. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 19:39, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

Then I should just delete this whole page then shouldnt I? Because again every weapon we are seeing IS NOT CONFIRMED! There is no beta released and only Alpha videos....Seriously this is bullshit
:The difference is that all the other weapons are from material that was released by EA, or from footage that they allowed to be shot (The images from the G36C section are from an interview with one of the developers IIRC) as opposed to the video you posted which was illegal made and distributed by someone breaking the NDA they signed. As you seem unable to grasp this, just wind your neck in for a week or so until the Beta is released, and then it can be posted with LEGALLY obtained confirmation images. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 13:15, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

If posting info from a breach of NDA is the main reason than I can understand that. Then I shall wait for the "official" information to be released.
== G3A3 and UMP.45 ==
The weapons can be seen in these videos from GameSpot in the Tokyo Game Show 2011.
Though it's cam footage you can clearly see the pick-up icon of the weapons.

Someone should work their magic and add those to the page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd0M7_3wENw Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbsI9Vsv5wE Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arOhTIaeGGY Part 3

[[User:Santos|Santos]] 12:59, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

:I can have it down in about 20 minutes. --[[User:Samael527|Samael527]]

:I would imagine that if it is cam footage it has likely not been officially release and is against copyright, so probably shouldn't have caps on here. You can get a shot of the G3A3 from the end of the guillotine trailer though. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 19:05, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

::I added the two weapons on the page. Since the videos were not leaked but released by a reputable game journalism/review site (Gamespot.com) it should be okay, right? If they weren't allowed to release it Gamespot wouldn't have done so. I looked around and other gaming websites are posting the footage as well [http://www.gametrailers.com/video/tgs-11-battlefield-3/721062]. I'm pretty new to IMFDB, so is the stuff I saw in the gameplay okay to post? --[[User:Samael527|Samael527]]

::Similary to E3 with IGN, PAX with NVIDIA, TGS with GameSpot definitely can be considered official source. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:53, 18 September 2011 (CDT)

== M1911 Confirmed ==

http://gunclub.ea.com/us/intel/blog/battlefield3-weapon-unlock

For being an EA gunclub member you get an M1911 :P --Joey1666

Pic here: http://web-vassets.ea.com/Assets/Richmedia/Gun-Club/images/bf3-gun-unlock.jpg --[[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:39, 20 September 2011 (CDT)

:Not too sure exactly what pistol they have based this on though. It has slanted cocking serrations on the slide (rear only), non target sights, beavertail grip safety and a rounded burr hammer. Closest thing I can think of is the early version of the [[1911#M-45_MEUSOC|M-45 MEUSOC]], which are a old USGI 1911 frame with a [[1911#Springfield_Armory_M1911_-_A1|Sprinfield Armoury]] slide, a rounded hammer, a beavertail grip safety and Pachmayr rubber grips (along with some other less obvious improvements). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 17:58, 20 September 2011 (CDT)

::Yeah, I'm pretty sure it IS the original version of the MEU. Also, you missed the Springfield 3-hole trigger. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 22:24, 20 September 2011 (CDT)

:Gun Club? Looks like EA is messing up again: http://gunclub.ea.com/us/mygunclub/rewards
:They haven't even fixed the stat tracking :S --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:12, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

== Battlefield 3 Open Beta ==

So, EA confirmed the PC/X360/PS3 BETA startup. Begining 27.09 for those who have MoH 2010 Tier One Edition, and 29.09 for the rest.
Good opportunity to test the game and get some guns updated :). ~ GumBoy 21.09.2011 16.07 (CET)

:Actually, the early access is open for people with the Medal of Honor Limited Edition as well, not just Tier One. It's also for people who pre-ordered before a certain cutoff, but I can't remember the specifics. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 09:10, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

::Can't wait for this, hope we get a different map this time, Operation Metro was good but not great. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 09:37, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

:::Caspian Border would be great :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 11:06, 21 September 2011 (CDT)

== PP2000 Spotted ==
Battlelog pics here: http://www.battlefieldlog.com/2011/09/battlefield-3-beta-battlelog.html

Pic here: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pdUIBRNHpXo/Tn4uZQaayQI/AAAAAAAAAdw/PVmts2hVNjU/s1600/battlelog-4.jpg

:What's the pistol, what's the shotgun? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:09, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::I believe the handgun is a Glock variant, whilst the shotgun is Benelli M3 Super 90. --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 08:02, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:::I saw the PP2000 in action at Eurogamer Expo, looked pretty good. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 08:16, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

::::Hmm, I never saw it before. The shotgun is the 870 MCS and the pistol is the Glock 17. If you look at the page, he's level 0 with no XP, so these are the first unlocks, which makes sense given what they are: a shotgun, a pistol that isn't faction-based that's similar to the M9 and MP443, and a PDW. Also, now that the PP2000 has a stock we won't have any more stockless guns, specifically stockless guns with scopes... [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:08, 25 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::Hmm, the magazine tube is rather short for M870 MCS. Which would mean it is rather regular variant of M870 with pistol grip and full stock. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:49, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

::::::No, the MCS is modular, hence the name, it just has the 4 round tube as standard, with the 7 round one as an attachment. This is the MCS: http://www.kiesler.com/shop/ProductImages/Model870MCS_PartSLG.jpg [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:57, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::::The magazine tube in MCS is supposed to have the same length as the barrel as can be seen here: [http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/Firearms/Shotguns%20Pump/MCS.aspx Remington Model 870 Modular Combat Shotgun (MCS)]. Thus the 3+1 MCS would have the same 10" barrel. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:23, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

::::::::I understand it's supposed to, but it's still an MCS, just not assembled properly or something. If you don't like it, just use the extended tube attachment, I know I will be, and Demize confirmed (how many times have I written those two words now?) all the extended mag attachments are visible, like the MP7s 40 round magazine, or this shotgun. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:50, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::If that's so... Okey, an oddly assembled MCS ¯\(°_o)/¯
:::::::::P.S. I didn't count how many times you have written those two words D: --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:02, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::LOL! :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 08:08, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

:::::::::::Demize confirmed that Alex says 'Demize confirmed' a lot. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 12:00, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

::::::::::::[http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/hr/im-metal-hs-2000-e.html XD] --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:12, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

==ACR?==

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coOHjF4_apI&feature=channel_video_title

Magpul Masada/ ACR?

At 0:36, the handguard and flashhider look very similar to that of the ACR

:I think it might be the SG 553, also has a similar flashhider. --[[User:Chrausis|Chrausis]] 12:07, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

::Agree, it is the SG 553. Can tell by the design of the rail system, shape of the receiver and the fact that it has a smooth curve to the top of the stock rather than an adjustable cheek riser. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:14, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

I also see the M320 Launcher at 0:41, so thats one more launcher for the page [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 13:09, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

Ugh, what a song choice :| --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:12, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

:Whine, whine, whine. No game is good enough for you people. :P - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:41, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

::Not game - song >:O --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:49, 27 September 2011 (CDT)

::Yay, finally can see the M320 mounted instead of standalone :D And yeah, I agree that's the 553. Oh, and what do you mean "you people"? Lol ;) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:05, 26 September 2011 (CDT)

:::Sorry, I thought you were complaining about the game. I was just joking when I said that. *rolls eyes* - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 18:44, 27 September 2011 (CDT)

== NDA for Beta ==

OK, from what I'm hearing the Beta is going to be subject to an NDA, just like the Alpha. This may just be for the early access and may be rescinded once it goes public, or it may be for the whole thing.

What this means is that we can't post info or shots from the Beta build until it is rescinded. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 02:02, 27 September 2011 (CDT)

:[http://twitter.com/#!/zh1nt0/status/115781634879524864 Disregard.] I screwed up, again. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 02:15, 27 September 2011 (CDT)

::Haha :) That's good news [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:18, 27 September 2011 (CDT)

== G17C modelled after G17 ==

I just talked to a DICE dev on Steam, and he told me the reason they modelled the G17C after a regular G17 it's to save prestanda so the game can run as smoothly as possible.
So that's why is missing those compesators "holes" on the slide. And the reason they decided to still call it a G17C, is because is only a minor detail. They probably have more relevant things to fix, than changing the correct name of a weapon. edit: forgot to sign [[User:Santos|Santos]] 03:46, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

:That's understandable, given the crazy graphics and everthing else this game it running. If they don't change it we'll note it as incorrect on the main page, but note that it was intentionally left out; if they do know the correct difference between the C and standard, but needed to do for technical reasons, I'm happy. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 14:33, 30 September 2011 (CDT)

::But someone could state in the main page, that it was left there intentionally due to some other and more important things to worry about in the development of the game. [[User:Santos|Santos]] 03:46, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

::I guess that proves that Frostbite 2 Engine is much more complicated and difficult to mod than Refractor 2 Engine. To fix weapon's name in Battlefield 2 one needed a mere Notepad ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:57, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

:::That might well not change, since the config files will have weapon names in plain text that can be replaced (unless the names are actually images or something). [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 17:49, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

:I think it's stupid what the guy from DICE said: "''We modeled the gun after the regular G17 so the game would run faster...''" Huh? So if the gun is actually a 100% G17, why call G17C? Am I missing something here? --[[User:RaNgeR|RaNgeR]] 04:10, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

::Modelling the holes ''would'' require they put an inside surface on the barrel, but I can't see how an engine that features buildings falling into hundreds of pieces of high-detail rubble would be screwed over by that. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 17:47, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

== Corrected some information ==

I went through and fixed some things. There is a Korean M16 that has 4 firing modes and the shotgun in Op Gullotine is a Remington 870 which you can tell by looking at the rear sight. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 12:23, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

:It has four? Cool, didn't know that. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 17:41, 1 October 2011 (CDT)

== Lack of weapon variety ==

Theres so many AK and M4 style weapons but no real variety, wheres the steyr, uzi and such.
The snipers are pretty much useless after the first two so why change ?
Like 3 AK styled assault rifles ?
Am i missing the point because it seems Mw3 has a much better weapon variety.
When i unlocked the SkS it takes 4 bullets to kill. That's double what the other two took even though they're the same calibre. - Joey1666

:Devs are lazy. Quite a bunch of unlocks are derivatives of starting weapons. There are so many European weapons that could be put as unlocks, but nooooo! Maybe DICE are saving for DLCs? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:28, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:: Yeah when they said 10 times the unlocks, who knew they meant dogtags and pistols with new attachments. And we have to unlock the same attachments for every other gun over and over. Whats with the lack of guns ? :/ And Some weapons like the m16 take 6 bullets to kill... the ump takes 7 from my experience. So why even bother using these weapons when i can have a sniper that 2 hit kills with a RDS. The beta has dissapointed me. --[[User:Joey1666|Joey1666]]

:::Maybe the game will have a "Hardcore" mode like the Modern Warfere games. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:51, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Always fun when people complain about balance before the balance has had any meaningful time to settle. Tomorrow people will be complaining half these things are totally overpowered when they figure out how to use them properly. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 09:34, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:::: Im not complaining about balance, if AR's take 6 hits to kill, i dont mind ill stick to my battle rifle. Just wish there was more variety is all. - Joey1666

:::::Well, from trying the PS3 beta it seemed all my weapons took ~6 hits to kill while all their weapons killed me instantly. Nothing like repeatedly being murdered by a spawncamper with, of all the goddamn things in the world, a UMP. >:( [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:23, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::::::All of the 5.56mm (and 9mm) weapons do 25 damage at point blank, making them 4 hit kill, and start dropping after about 20 feet, so 5 at midrange seems better, but could be 6, I can't see how far you're shooting. Also, all the 7.62mm (and .45) guns do 33.4 damage at point blank. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:36, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:::::::Well, I hope they fix the damage, from what I'm reading it's pretty stupid right now. :\ - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 15:35, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::: Personnally I like the fact that there are many AK & AR15 style firearms in it, and for that you have to unlock the attachements for each gun, I don't see a problem there, you just have to use the guns if you really want them. --[[User:VillageFroid|VillageFroid]] 12:11 October 2 2011 (CDT)

:::: Yeah i dont mind unlocking the same attachments over and over its just that they said there's 10 times the unlocks and not the same unlock 10 times however the amount of attachments is a nice touch. I just wish there was more weapons is all. - Joey1666

There, I removed all Kalashnikov and Stoner weapons and thats what is left, why are you guys complaining? The weapon selection is good. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 12:04, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

G3A3
AN-94
KH2002
AEK-971
F2000
AS VAL

Carbines (Engineer)

G36C
SCAR-H CQC
A-91
SG553

Machine Guns (Support)

M249E2
M60
M240
6P41
QYJ 88

Sniper Rifles (Recon)

SVD (RU)
M40A5
SV98
M98B
M82A3 (not in MP)

Battle Rifles (Recon)

M39 EMR
SKS

Sub-Machine Guns (All Kit)

P90TR
MP7A1
UMP45
PDR
PP2000

Shotguns (All Kit)

870 MCS
M1014
USAS-12
Striker

Pistols (All Kit)

M9 (US)
MP443 (RU)
G17
M-45
MP412
T44
93R
G18

Once the main game comes out, we'll all see the diversity, alot of the weapons in the Beta are mostly there for testing purposes, I haven't even seen anyone unlock ALL the weapons yet in the Beta so I'm not sure how many exist there. Plus we might also see more weapon diversity in the Singleplayer [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 13:12, 2 October 2011 (CDT)
:To add on to my reply, I should also mention that while yes I feel a little disappointed that they didn't add some other "common" weapons like a traditional MP5 or some other weapons like certain Pump Action Shotguns, it doesn't really phase me too much, because from what I've seen thus far they've pretty much nailed some of the roles appriopriately. [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 13:23, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:: Ok so ive done a bit of research, veteran gives you one extra weapon, Co-op gives you 6 extra weapons and the first expansion gives you 10 weapons.... thats 17 more weapons. I feel more comfortable now :) Not only that but theres plans for more expansions :) http://mp1st.com/2011/10/02/leaked-weapon-list-for-battlefield-3-back-to-karkand-dlc/ - Joey1666

::In realistic terms 9mm subguns and indeed subguns in general have fallen out of favour since the 80s / 90s and largely replaced by 5.56mm carbine rifles in their traditional roles as bad guys started wearing body armour. From what I've heard, neither the UMP or the MP7 did anything like as well as their older brother. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 05:28, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:Not quite right. The co-op and veteran weapons are among the list we have now, only the Back To Karkand expantion give new weapons.

== Something that someone should suggest to the Battlefield Twitter ==

I don't have a Twitter so I would appreciate if someone did this for me. I want a option where I can set my spawn prefences. Right now I'm using the UMP 45 and each time I spawn, I set it to 2 round burst and turn off the tac light till I need it. I would like if I can set an option that I spawn the way I want and not full auto. Most of the time I don't use full auto unless its a machine gun. Ghost Recon had this option and I liked it. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 13:26, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

== Excited ==

Im excited that this game will be more realistic than most others. I like the fact we will also be able to use selector switches. Did I hear right? The UMP-45 has a two round burst mode? I wasn't aware the UMP had a burst mode. I always thought it had Semi and auto.--[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

:It can have a semi, 2-round burst, auto trigger group option. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:48, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

:Duh, that's what manufacturer's sites for ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:08, 3 October 2011 (CDT)
:[http://www.heckler-koch.de/HKWebText/detailPara/1926/82/4/20/213 UMP on H&K's European site]
:[http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/ump_specs.asp UMP on H&K's US site]

H&K is usually pretty good about having burst option trigger packs. You just don't hear about it very often because in most movies and television shows, the selector is always set to rock n roll.--[[User:GLOCK10mil|GLOCK10mil]] 18:22, 2 October 2011 (CDT)

== Back To Karkand Weapons ==
http://www.enterbf3.com/viewtopic.php?t=4707&sid=91faa55311d7c875027fba7bd657d6fb

A whole bunch of leaked info, from the game files I believe. The working names for some SP missions, and all the Co-op and MP maps too, as well as the unique to BTK weapon list. Note that they incorrectly call the HK53 an MP5, even though it actually was called HK53 in BF2 :confused face: As of now it is unknown whether these will carry over to the standard game.

ARs

-L85A2

-FAMAS

Carbines

-QBZ-95B

-HK53

MGs

-QBB-95

-MG36

Sniper Rifles

-L96

-QBU-88

SMG

-PP-19

Shotgun

-Jackhammer

[[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:33, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:LOL, Jackhammer is back. That was the only prototype gun in BF2 xD
:'''@Alex''' HK53 was the carbine for Euro Force's Spec Ops class. Whether MP5 was the submachine gun for USMC's Anti-Tank class ;) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 04:08, 3 October 2011 (CDT)
:'''Edit:''' Ah, I've read the thread. There are probably going to be both weapons in the DLC \o/

::Sure would love to see the FAMAS. I was secretly hoping for the XM8 to return, but I guess you can't get everything. [[user:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 11:40, 3 October 2011

:::The XM8 did return, it's called the G36. They just didn't put it inside a silly plastic model spaceship. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 11:19, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

::::::Well said. I have to agree you on that, I prefer the actual G36 rather than the 'uber-futuristic-tacticool' plastic prototype that is... wait, was... wait it didn't even leave the prototype stages... well anyways, that is the xm8 --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 12:23, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

== .44 Magnumn, M60, USAS-12 and Claymore gameplay ==

Found some videos of the Claymore and Revolver in action, looks like the T-44 is just called .44 Magnum any idea what kind of revolver it is? Also M60E4 is seen in one vid with a 200 round capacity and USAS-12 with a 7 round box mag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLW7WcIv_gA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExvIOmviDgw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 16:06, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:It's a [[Taurus Model 44]]. - [[User:Mr. Wolf|Mr. Wolf]] 16:28, 3 October 2011 (CDT)

:I guess DICE followed IW's example. They named Colt Anaconda simply ".44 Magnum" before. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:35, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

::I'm liking the new .44 Magnum from what Videos I've seen so far. Up close it seems to behave just like how a .44 Magnum should. At short-close range (10 or less feet) it seems to kill in one shot to the upper chest/head but further distances (up to say 30-40 feet) seem to kill in 2 shots to the body or one to the head. Plus with addition of a Scoped version, I can see this being the ideal "Mini-Sniper". I think the way there going about it is the MP412 is the better option up close while the .44 Mag is better at range. [[User:Draco122|Draco122]] 07:28, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

== HK416 ==

I was reading the description of the HK416 on the main page and there is something I don't quite understand.
In the main page it states that the weapon in-game has 3 firing modes; semi, 3-round burst and auto and that there aren't many Stoner lower receivers that support 3 firing modes. But isn't the Stoner platform manufactured by KAC? And why is it being use on a HK manufactured weapon? And if that is the case, then shouldn't it be pointed out as custom HK416?

And my other question is about the licensing of the weapons. Since there are other HK weapons that goes by their correct names like the MP7A1, G36C, M27 IAR and M320. Why would they license those particular weapons and not the HK416, making DICE name it M416? I think is most likely a misunderstanding rather than a copyright issue.

Please correct me here if I'm wrong. [[User:Santos|Santos]] 01:24, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

:Devs are hell-bent on making HK416 the US' service rifle. Can't think of any other reason. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:38, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

:Maybe it's because "HK416" has HK's company name right there in the weapon name. It might be more of a copyright thing. [[User:Gato|Gato]] 21:01, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

Eugene Stoner is the inventor of the the AR 15/AR10/M16/M4. The name for the platform as a whole is the Stoner. There are over 100 manufacturers of AR 15s in the US. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 17:55, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

:Probably what Masterius and Gato said, the Devs really, really want the HK416 to be the US standard (cause it ID better) :) And it has HK in the name, same reason the Glocks are G17/18. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 21:11, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

::Although Battlefield 2 had HK21 and HK53... And this makes me curious. Are they going to rename HK53 if/when it comes back? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:50, 5 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Oh right, well then it's probably the same reason the Striker is still the DAO-12, they kept the name the same as it's always been in BF. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 02:52, 5 October 2011 (CDT)

== Glitch with the PDR? ==

Anyone else notice whenever you're using the PDR, It randomly switches from a 20 round mag to a 30 round mag? [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 10:45, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

Apparently the extended mags are included by default. They're taken off if you have any barrel attachment. --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 11:58, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

== New Screenshots ==
http://www.enterbf3.com/viewtopic.php?t=5033&sid=fa2af8c4723e98f64dadab8b5b9897d8
At the bottom. In one we can see a suppressed M40A5, and in on of the AKS-74U ones we can see his Coop buddy has a KH2002. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

== M26 MASS iron-sights ==

Does anyone remember which sight you would use in the beta if you were using an M26 mounted on one of the assault rifles? --[[User:HashiriyaR32|HashiriyaR32]] 17:48, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I never used the M26 in the beta, but with the M320 mounted on a rifle you would just zoom halfway in, a la the shotguns in previous Battlefield games. I reckon that the M26 would do the same. [[User:Krakydak|Krakydak]] 17:56, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:Same irons as the P90, Striker, F2000, M40A3, and M98B; the aftermarket ones. Oh wait, ON the AR? The AR's sights, like Crysis 2. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:29, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Why is the "RPK 74M" chambered in 7.62x39 ==

[http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111001163136/battlefield/images/5/5f/RPK-74M.png Look here]... note the curvature of the magazine, the lack of the flash hider, the steel ribbed mag.... why can't games ever get the RPK right? Either putting a 75 round drum on the 74M, or this....

:A lot of the pics on Battlelog were wrong, like the G18's pic was a 17, but it does have the selector in game. Let me see an in game pic with the 7.62 mag, and I'll agree. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 18:36, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

::Rather odd that [http://web-vassets.ea.com/Assets/Richmedia/Image/Screenshots/ak74m_656x369.png?cb=1317663410 AK-74M] has proper image but [http://web-vassets.ea.com/Assets/Richmedia/Image/Screenshots/rpk_656x369.png?cb=1317663545 RPK-74M] has black RPK (not even RPKM) instead. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 03:06, 16 October 2011 (CDT)
::On a side note: do 45-round STANAG magazines even exist? Talking about [http://web-vassets.ea.com/Assets/Richmedia/Image/Screenshots/m27_656x369.png?cb=1317664019 M27].

[http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110929075021/battlefield/images/6/69/RPK_-_Beta.gif] that's it in first person, trust me the mag is a 7.62 ribbed steel mag in the game, I can't find a screenshot, but you can see it in the right light while reloading....

Yes! Not military issue, but I don't get the point of the M27 as a support weapon IRL, this helps at least. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26456/Product/AR-15-M16-45-ROUND-MAGAZINE [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 04:37, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

:Oh, cool. Didn't know that :) --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 05:49, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

::Like I didn't know that stuff about the AKs, it's what we're all here for :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 06:19, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

:::Yeah! :D --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 06:52, 16 October 2011 (CDT)

== Renders ==
Right now I am adding renders of all the weapons from the offical site. In case anyone thinks I missed them, the MP-443, M16A3, F2000 Tactical, KH2002, M16A4, AKS-74U, M4, A-91, and GP-30 do not have entries there yet, but I will add them here when they do. Well, except the GP-30, because I doubt it will get one... poor GP-30 :'( EDIT: Done! :D [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 01:43, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

:Sorry for this being offtopic:
:I wish Devs added [http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=271&backPID=265&productID=89&pid_product=297&pidList=265&categorySelector=7&detail=&cHash=a367c3feaf GL1] to F2000, [http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?Itemid=5&catid=20:all-other-weapons&id=36:the-hk79-underbarrel-grenade-launcher&option=com_content&view=article HK79] to G3 and [http://kbptula.ru/eng/str/strelk/556a91.htm the unnamed UGL] to A-91 (with the barrel length of 415 mm (same as AK-74M), it would be classified as assault rifle (compact one though, because its overall length is lesser than that of AK-74M with stock folded [http://zonawar.ru/rash_guns/rg_avtomat_a91m_eng.html] [http://zonawar.ru/rash_guns/rg_avtomat_ak-74m_eng.html] )). But that's probably would be too much to ask :( --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:54, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

That would have been nice, though, the F2000's GL1 is solved by not letting it mount a GL, and we haven't seen one mounted to the G3 yet. Who knows, maybe it will become an HK79 like the GP-30 :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 03:06, 17 October 2011 (CDT)

== KH2002 ==

Two things: this site doesn't have a KH2002 page, and if there's a newer version from 2009, shouldn't they have named it KH2009? [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 15:46, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:I can't even find any sources mentioning 2009. They just say KH2002 was revealed to public\entered service in 2004 and show the pictures of either long carrying handle or short carrying handle (the most seen one) variant :\ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:37, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

::There are 3 different versions of the KH2002 I have seen. The first is the initial 2002 model which has a short carry handle and front sight post at the front of the receiver. Then there is the 2006 model that has a long carry handle and no front sight post. Lastly there is the 2009 model that has the long carry handle but a barrel mounted front sight post along with a built up finger grooved front grip. Not sure about the dates, but this is deffinitely the way the KH2002 design progressed. I have also heard that there are three different barrel lengths for the KH2002, but I have only seen the standard length (pictured) and the short barrel, which was on an original model, with the barrel ending at the end of the receiver. Have never seen a picture of the DMR length barrel. As for the name being KH2002, all I can say is that M1903s made in the 30s were called M1903A1s and not M1930s. It is basically the same rifle, so why change the name. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 05:31, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

Yeah true, I guess I'm just thinking there should be some way to tell them apart by name. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:53, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

:After a bit of research, I found out that the version in this game (have seen exactly the same gun with and without front sight post so not sure which is the correct one, or maybe it is detached when optics are added which appear to be a copy of the old Colt 4x20 scope) is not called the Khaybar but the Sama, so will change the article accordingly. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 08:24, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

::[http://www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?t=44114 This the source], correct? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 10:24, 19 October 2011 (CDT)
:::First saw it mentioned on MilitaryPhotos.net, but it is mentioned on quite a few Iranian defence forums and blogs that the most recent version (the one in the game) is called the Sama rather than the Khaybar. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 11:25, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

== Makarov PB (6P9) ==

Dogtags :) http://www.enterbf3.com/news/579-159-battlefield-3-dog-tags/ What's interesting is, if you look below the M39 in the bottom rightish, there's a Makarov PB, beside the suppressed M9. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a suppressed MP-443, or if it will actually be in, but it's very interesting. Also note a lot of weapons seem to be missing, most likely since this isn't the full selection of dogtags. Oh, and there's two P90s, someone screwed up :P [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 23:30, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Ya the USAS-12 dogtag shows a SPAS-12 instead--[[User:Anarchy66660|Anarchy66660]] 01:52, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

:The designer of PB isn't Makarov, it's Deryagin[http://zonawar.ru/rash_guns/rg_spesial_pb_eng.html] :| --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 02:17, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

::Oh, I was just assuming it was Makarov :/ At any rate, has it ever been in a BF game before? If it's in this one I'm gonna totally use it with the AS :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 05:52, 19 October 2011 (CDT)

A Makarov but still no USP? :( [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 08:29, 19 October 2011 (CDT)
:I'm sure MW3 will have more USPs than you can shake a stick at. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:24, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

== Optic changes ==

For some reason during the Faultline demo, the M4s were all equipped with ACOGs and the SAW gets the EOtech, but in the actual game, they reverse it where all the M4s during the mission have EOtechs and the SAW had the ACOG. Just something I noticed.

Also my problem is when an M4 is equipped with an ACOG, we still see the front sight post, but when we aimed, the front sight post disappeared when in reality, we should be able to see see it [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 23:11, 25 October 2011 (CDT)

:The reason for that is because most videogames don't ''do'' scopes, at least not properly. Typically (there's some exceptions) the game removes the rifle viewmodel completely and slaps an overlay over the screen to represent the scope. This results in glitches like drawing the scope a frame too early and ending up looking down the scope overlay at the rifle itself, or, as here, the front sight going AWOL along with the rest of the rifle. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 00:10, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

== Renders ==

I think we need to crop the renders down; that's a lot of white space. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 03:34, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

:Click the images and look at the sizes, if you do that you'll end up with them about 200 pixels across. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 03:54, 26 October 2011 (CDT)
:So we're padding images then? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 04:47, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

:I got those, and those are the originals, as big as they come. If we find bigger ones later, feel free to replace them, but the I after saving 50ish pics, resaving them all as jpegs so they'd work here, uploading them all one at a time, and adding them all to the page, I didn't feel like taking the time to crop :/ [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 11:20, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

Incidentally those "in game renders" look to actually be the renders the pickup icons are the outlines of. Hence them lacking rear sights on weapons that can mount optics. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:59, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yeah they do, good catch. [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:53, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

== I got this one ==

Just uploaded a few screens as tests, I'll do more when I'm awake enough to not suck horribly at the game. Also, this page is a hideous mess. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:07, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

:Just play SP Campaign on Easiest difficulty ;)
:BTW, is Co-op mode using the same missions as SP? --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 07:48, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

::Apparently not, one of the guys on the forum says there's one co-op mission with a controllable helicopter. I wouldn't know, I've only owned the game for three hours. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:51, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

::: There is one mission where you spend the entire level in an AH1Z Viper and it's pretty much target practice to get used to the chopper controls as the enemy AI have a hard time figuring out if their weapons are actually guns or if they're just oddly shaped Easy Bake Ovens. [[User:Lurker McNasty|Lurker McNasty]] 13:51, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

== A question about the AEK ==

Is it really the AEK-971s or just a misnamed AEK-971? The render pic shows the 971 variant, as the 971s has its selector on the right side, differently angled pistol grip, plus collapsible buttstock. I'm just curious. - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 16:15, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

:It's called AEK-971 in game, but I added the "s" as it has 3-round burst. If that's wrong feel free to change :) [[User:Alex T Snow|Alex T Snow]] 16:53, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

== Something Odd==

I noticed something odd when I played the campaign and I'm sure others have noticed too. I'll try not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't played yet. In the game's prologue, when you disarm the terrorist who has an UMP strapped to his back, your character fires a burst from the weapon out the window then takes the weapon. When the game gives you back control, it turns into a AKS-74U. I thought it might be a glitch but when it happened towards the end of the campaign again, I knew something was off.

Am I the only one that finds this odd? --[[User:Bad Boy|Bad Boy]] 23:37, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

I was watching my buddy play and noticed it as well. My first thought was "WTF did that AKS-74U come from!?"-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 00:42, 29 October 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Outpost

2011-10-12T00:16:20Z

Ranger01: /* AK's */

well, i uploaded screencaps and a poster, but i'll be damned if i know how to get them on the page. anybody is free to take it from here.
:Took a few more caps and cleaned up the page a bit. This movie is REALLY hard to cap. Most of the time it's too dark to see anything. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 23:31, 16 June 2011 (CDT)
== Zombies ==
How can this movie be classed as a zombie film it has no zombies in it. It has Nazi ghosts, Immortal men and Golem.

they are technically zombies as they are undead who can do paranormal and supernatural things.-[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

== AK's ==

Why are BRITISH mercanaries armed with AK pattern rifles. I know the movie takes place in an alternated present, but it is outdated.--[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

Why not? AKs are reliable, have common ammo in the area, do what they need to do, and some people like AKs better than other options, same with M4s, M14s, etc.[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 16:24, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, I personally prefer AKs over AR-15s. Plus they are mercenaries, they're not working for any specific government/faction. They propably just got what was cheap and more easily accessible in that specific country/region. --[[User:Warejaws|Warejaws]] 17:14, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

More cheap? Easily accessible? I guess i can see what you mean. But this is ENGLAND. Your not allowed to own personal firearms in England. Since AK's are not issued to the Brits and never were, they must be personal weapons. Reliable, yes, cheap, probably not. The G36C and the Berettas would be more easier to gain.--[[User:Gunner5|Gunner5]]

Who says they live in the UK? Plus even in the UK there are ways around the laws for some companies, there are a few PMCs running out of the UK that I'm gonna bet have some firearms that the average Tom, Dick, and Harry cant have.[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:16, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Canadian Bacon

2011-10-11T21:38:01Z

Ranger01: /* Not an 870 */

==Not an 870==
[[Image:Remington870NewModel.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Remington 870 Police Magnum with Black Synthetic Furniture - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:50577.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Mossberg 500 with high-capacity magazine tube - 12 Gauge]]
[[Image:CB_R870_02.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Bud confronts Gus ([[Brad Sullivan]]), the leader of the "Canadians."]]
I think it's a Mossberg 500, it appears it was originally a standard 5-shot and an extension tube was added later. I don't own a Mossberg so no idea if that can be done. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 15:59, 11 October 2011 (CDT)
:I made the determination based on the location of the support post. The scene is filmed in really low light, so it's hard to see other details. --[[User:Funkychinaman|Funkychinaman]] 16:10, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

==Unidentified Revolver==

Its a S&W of some sort:
[[Image:CB_revolver_01.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
It has the grips of a S&W, the thumb latch like a S&W, but I cant see enough to make a clear Model ID though.[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 16:38, 11 October 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Outpost

2011-10-11T21:24:51Z

Ranger01: /* AK's */

Talk:S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl

2011-09-15T16:22:03Z

Ranger01: /* USP- full auto ? */

==Inspiration==

Has anyone seen the movie this game is based off of?-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 00:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)

:No, I haven't. I didn't even know it was based off of anything. Sounds interesting though, what's the film? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 07:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::This, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(film) [[User:Dongs|Dongs]] 07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Jesus Christ it's boring-S&Wshooter

:I have read "Roadside picnic" (rusgunnut1)

==Arsenal==
Since those who aren't even remotely interested in realistic depictions of weapons in games wouldn't be here, I figure those who are might be interested in this:

There's a mod out there for STALKER called [http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_page=1&thm_id=15469&sec_id=16&offset=-180 'Arsenal']. It adds about 80 new weapon models (no joke), all with good textures, new (mostly accurate) animations, sounds, HUD icons, descriptions in the menu... All properly coded so they have realistic stats. Almost all of the default weapon models are replaced with new (non-mirrored) ones, almost all weapon animations are reworked, so there's no more pointless slide-pulling when you equip pistols, there are different animations for dry and partial reloads, and the depiction of recoil looks a lot better, it's not so rigid now. Finally, many of the game's peculiarities are fixed (the Desert Eagle now fires .50AE, not .45 ACP, for example). All told it makes the game's weaponry ''far'' more authentic. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 13:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
:This mod is incredibly cool, especially if it matter to you to have different versions of the same gun. Aesthetic choices are much expanded, such as different furniture(wood, bakelite, plastic, camo colors etc) for AKs. It gets really cool if you combine it with Oblivion Lost, which has it's own additions(such as MAC 10s, FN P90s, etc). It does take a large number of additional files to get the two mods to work together and work with STALKER. Not to mention, your computer. Anyway, TRY IT!!! --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

Is there a reason all the rifles have left hand ejections for the empty brass?
:In arsenal they don't. Some of the OL stuff does, like the Bizon which is still mirrored. But Arsenal doesn't. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was actually going here to say about the Arsenal Mod, but I see it's known not only in Russia =)
So I wanted to suggest to create a new page specially for АМod because I think that it is good enough for this purpose, but too big to include it in this S.T.A.L.K.E.R. page.
Our "job" is to collect all the guns in movies and games, so I think what the AMod is actually
what we need. Sorry for my english again... --[[User:FAMAS|FAMAS]] 23 October 2010

:I disagree. As much as I like Arsenal, it's a mod and a pretty obscure one at that. While we do have some pages on "mods" (example: [[Insurgency]]), most of those are mods that have gone commercial (like [[Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45]]) or are officially recognized in some way (Insurgency, for instance, is distributed on Steam). I really don't think it's notable enough to justify a presence here. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

==S.T.A.L.K.E.R clear sky and Call of pripyat new weapons ==

I know because the weapons don't really change it wouldn't warrant a new page for all 3 games, but how about a section on this page for the new weapons they have added in both games? while they both feature the same weapons, clear sky added the PKM and call of pripyat (currently unreleased) is adding an automatic version of the armsel striker, and hopefully some more (somewhat doubtful). doing this we may have to change it from "S.T.A.L.K.E.R shadow of chernobyl" to just "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"- 5t3v0

:I was thinking of doing that, though the PKM was actually in STALKER itself before it was in Clear Sky anyway (I've got a preview screenshot showing a PKM on a monopod in Bar) and there's a leaked Beta that apparently featured a usable minigun. I'm not sure about the Striker; given the team, isn't it more likely to be a Saiga-12? [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 04:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::Nope, not the saiga, its the striker [http://cop.stalker-game.com/?page=eliminator]. Don't worry, many stalker fans were dissappointed by the lack of SAIGA. I'm not sure, is the striker semi-automatic only? I heard somewhere on the Forums that its full auto -5t3v0

:::Striker is semi-auto only, it's just sometimes depicted in games as fullauto. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 11:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::::The vulcan does appear in stalker vanilla, I had an enemy at the start of pripyat spawn with one. The Striker is semiautomatic until the appropriate upgrade has be purchased. -Scarecrow

:::::Firstly, Scarecrow is mistaken, because I know without even a shadow of a doubt that there's no "Vulcan" gatling gun in Shadow of Chernobyl (I'm a modder and I've spent countless hours going through the game's files for various reasons, if there was a handheld minigun anywhere in the data, I would know about it).

:::::Secondly, I agree that we should cover all three STALKER games on the one page, since most of the weapons in the first game are used in the subsequent two games, with only minor changes and a couple of additions. The TOZ-34 over/under shotgun, Browning Hi-Power and Beretta 92FS were all in the first game, but the first two only existed in the data and were never actually usable in-game, while the Beretta was extremely rare (it was carried by one character only). The second game, Clear Sky, made full use of all of these guns, and added one new one, the PKM. Finally, the third game, Call of Pripyat, includes all of the weapons from the previous two games and adds one, the Armsel Protecta.

:::::Finally, I've been playing Call of Pripyat all week and I'm fairly sure that the Protecta (named "Eliminator" in-game) is portrayed as fully automatic and doesn't have to be modified as such. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yeah, I agree that this page should be moved to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series" and include all the firearms from Shadow of Chernobyl, Clear Sky, and Call of Pripyat. Redirect terms for the search engine should point to this new page as well, such as the individual episode titles as well as the two different ways of typing "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." (with and without the periods). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::I can confirm the Stiker/Protector shotgun. Very Rare! I took one off a bandit when I wiped out a bandit base in the Jupiter map. It had to be modified by the mechanic for auto fire, but it is very effective in-close for chimeras and bloodsuckers. Can take a SUSAT optic. (Wraith)

:::::I think you have to modify the Protecta to fire in full auto. You can also have it modified to fire a bit faster. Secondly, I think certain versions of STALKER (like, special ones that you had to pre-order or whatever) actually had a Vulcan, but I don't think you can get that version anymore, and if you can... well, I don't know how you did it. Oh, and if you guys do end up creating the pages for the other games, you might want to take screenshots of modification tree... things. Just a suggestion.(Person who frequents this site but doesn't feel like creating an account...)

::::::The version of STALKER that contains a minigun is a leaked beta or alpha (I forget which), not a pre-order version. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 20:18, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

:Having checked up, apparently the textures for the minigun are actually in the released early build that GSC put up for download a while ago, but the model isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:25, 4 May 2011 (CDT)

So, is it time to finally switch the article to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"? And yeah, add weapon categories. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:58, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

:Alright, ya all lazybones, had to do begin the work myself. Certainly it's not perfect, so anyone wants to help? Also, <^ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:35, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

==Clear Sky==
:If someone wants me to I could possibly try and find out the whole weapons list for Clear Sky. I have the Russia only special edition. All I would need to do for that is get a translator, as the whole game is in Russian-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 04:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Clear sky Didn't actually add much. All it added was the PKM and made the unused but fully functional weapons available and the "martha" more promenient- 5t3v0

==Makarov PM==
That ain't a Makarov PM, it's the updated version from the 70s or something, called the Makarov PMM, hence the designation in game. How can you tell? The 12 round capacity(when upgraded), and the use of overpressure rounds. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

:That depends on whether we go by appearances or specifications. I vote appearances, because:

:* It's unlikely that the developers knew (or cared) whether the original PM could use overpressure ammunition (remember, they thought having a Desert Eagle chambered in .45 ACP was an acceptable break from realism)
:* The upgrade system doesn't even have the slightest pretense towards realism. In all cases, the 'extended magazine' upgrades are
just pure fantasy. You pay the technician and *poof*, your gun's magazine holds more bullets despite being ''exactly the same size'' as it was before.

:The gun in the games is visibly a Makarov PM, the Makarov PMM has a quite obviously enlarged grip to accommodate the larger ammo capacity, which the in-game model lacks. :Compare the two pictures below:
[[Image:MakarovPM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PM.]][[Image:Makarov PMM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PMM.]]
:with [http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2030/socpm.jpg this one]. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the Desert Eagle being chambered in .45 was most likely because there werent any other guns chambered in the calibres it used like .357 or .44 in game -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]
:::.45?? Pff, c'mon... There is a Deagle in the game chambered in 9x39!!
::::Ah, you are totally right. I saw the black color, put 2 and 2 together, and got 5. My bad. As for the Eagle, at least the 9x39 was a custom job, nevermind how the bullets fit in the magazine(maybe diagonally?) --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was saying as a gameplay decision. The gun is as rare as it is in the vanilla game, what is the point of adding in a calibre that only one pistol that can only be found in one place (supposibly in 2 places, but the second only gets you a USP 45) its own calibre? -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]

==G36 or G36K?==
At first glance the G36 in the game seems to be the carbine variant, but it's actually just a G36 with an unusually short barrel. You can tell by comparing the number of vents in the handguard.

[[Image:HKG36.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36 has six vents.]]
[[Image:H&K-G36K.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36K has four.]]

[http://dog.fpsbanana.com/ss/srends/21132.jpg The G36 from the game has six vents]

So, yeah. I'll adjust the article as necessary. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 06:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

==TOZ-34==
The article states this doesn't appear in the game, but I'm rather sure you can find it in the Wild Territory as part of a quest for the 'family rifle' which you can get at the bar. It is near the Gordon Freeman corpse, inside of the tan shipping crate near him.

:Are you sure you saw it in the unmodded game? I'm fairly sure the 'family rifle' is just an ordinary side-by-side sawn-off in vanilla, and some mods change it to the TOZ-34. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 03:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope, you only retrieve a side-by-side sawed-off double-barrelled shotgun in the vanilla game for that quest. Really odd since in Western gun parlance such a firearm is not often called a "rifle." If it were something like the gun in the following video though, it would be have been much better suited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0boIqkjrNg

The modded gun is a lot more suitable for the quest giver since he seems to be a big game hunter (or rather, big mutant hunter) and such a firearm would be far more plausible. After all, in most of the other "retrieve the weapon" quests, you normally discover that it's a unique variant that leaves you with the decision to either return it to get your reward, or else use it for yourself.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:Apologies to you and MattyDienhoff, I was not running it unmodded, but with the Zone Reclamation Project per the instruction of a friend as its primary goal is bugfixes. Perhaps the authors considered the choice of weapon to be one of the bugs? Either way, I did find the under-over shotgun for the 'Family Rifle', and it had rather nice damage stats. Thanks for the correction, I forget I'm running a mod usually since its goal is just bugfixes.

== USP- full auto ? ==

In Call Of Pripyat, one of the last modifications you can make to the H&K USP is the addition of a full auto firing mode. I was wondering, if it is possible to do the same in real life and if yes will the firearm be able to handle it ?

It is possible to modify almost any semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic (in fact it can be accidentally done to quite a few). Could the USP handle it? With a few changes, yes.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:21, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

== TV Show ==

Did you hear that the Russians (the developers of the game to be more specific) are making a TV show about these games? I saw it on various gaming sites, and I cannot decide whether it is true or fake :P - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 10:29, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

:The developers of the game aren't Russians, they are Ukrainians - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSC_Game_World GSC Game World] :P
:But yeah, [http://stalker-gsc.ru/index/serial_stalker_stalker_skachat_serial_stalker_smotret_onlajn_vse_serii/0-133 S.T.A.L.K.E.R. TV Series] will be aired in 2011-2012 and [http://stalker-gsc.ru/publ/stalker_video/serial_stalker/trejler_seriala_s_t_a_l_k_e_r/41-1-0-4614 trailer of it] is already out. Among the cast is [http://entertainnow.net/video/person.php?pid=220&nm=Gosha_Kutsenko Gosha Kutsenko] - well known actor in Russia. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:33, 14 September 2011 (CDT)
:P.S. To translate pages, use sites such as [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate] or [http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Babel Fish].

The TV show is on hold for now, they are currently concentrating on the movie(!) and second game.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:16, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

Talk:S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl

2011-09-15T16:21:50Z

Ranger01: /* USP- full auto ? */

==Inspiration==

Has anyone seen the movie this game is based off of?-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 00:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)

:No, I haven't. I didn't even know it was based off of anything. Sounds interesting though, what's the film? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 07:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::This, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(film) [[User:Dongs|Dongs]] 07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Jesus Christ it's boring-S&Wshooter

:I have read "Roadside picnic" (rusgunnut1)

==Arsenal==
Since those who aren't even remotely interested in realistic depictions of weapons in games wouldn't be here, I figure those who are might be interested in this:

There's a mod out there for STALKER called [http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_page=1&thm_id=15469&sec_id=16&offset=-180 'Arsenal']. It adds about 80 new weapon models (no joke), all with good textures, new (mostly accurate) animations, sounds, HUD icons, descriptions in the menu... All properly coded so they have realistic stats. Almost all of the default weapon models are replaced with new (non-mirrored) ones, almost all weapon animations are reworked, so there's no more pointless slide-pulling when you equip pistols, there are different animations for dry and partial reloads, and the depiction of recoil looks a lot better, it's not so rigid now. Finally, many of the game's peculiarities are fixed (the Desert Eagle now fires .50AE, not .45 ACP, for example). All told it makes the game's weaponry ''far'' more authentic. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 13:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
:This mod is incredibly cool, especially if it matter to you to have different versions of the same gun. Aesthetic choices are much expanded, such as different furniture(wood, bakelite, plastic, camo colors etc) for AKs. It gets really cool if you combine it with Oblivion Lost, which has it's own additions(such as MAC 10s, FN P90s, etc). It does take a large number of additional files to get the two mods to work together and work with STALKER. Not to mention, your computer. Anyway, TRY IT!!! --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

Is there a reason all the rifles have left hand ejections for the empty brass?
:In arsenal they don't. Some of the OL stuff does, like the Bizon which is still mirrored. But Arsenal doesn't. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was actually going here to say about the Arsenal Mod, but I see it's known not only in Russia =)
So I wanted to suggest to create a new page specially for АМod because I think that it is good enough for this purpose, but too big to include it in this S.T.A.L.K.E.R. page.
Our "job" is to collect all the guns in movies and games, so I think what the AMod is actually
what we need. Sorry for my english again... --[[User:FAMAS|FAMAS]] 23 October 2010

:I disagree. As much as I like Arsenal, it's a mod and a pretty obscure one at that. While we do have some pages on "mods" (example: [[Insurgency]]), most of those are mods that have gone commercial (like [[Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45]]) or are officially recognized in some way (Insurgency, for instance, is distributed on Steam). I really don't think it's notable enough to justify a presence here. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

==S.T.A.L.K.E.R clear sky and Call of pripyat new weapons ==

I know because the weapons don't really change it wouldn't warrant a new page for all 3 games, but how about a section on this page for the new weapons they have added in both games? while they both feature the same weapons, clear sky added the PKM and call of pripyat (currently unreleased) is adding an automatic version of the armsel striker, and hopefully some more (somewhat doubtful). doing this we may have to change it from "S.T.A.L.K.E.R shadow of chernobyl" to just "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"- 5t3v0

:I was thinking of doing that, though the PKM was actually in STALKER itself before it was in Clear Sky anyway (I've got a preview screenshot showing a PKM on a monopod in Bar) and there's a leaked Beta that apparently featured a usable minigun. I'm not sure about the Striker; given the team, isn't it more likely to be a Saiga-12? [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 04:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::Nope, not the saiga, its the striker [http://cop.stalker-game.com/?page=eliminator]. Don't worry, many stalker fans were dissappointed by the lack of SAIGA. I'm not sure, is the striker semi-automatic only? I heard somewhere on the Forums that its full auto -5t3v0

:::Striker is semi-auto only, it's just sometimes depicted in games as fullauto. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 11:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::::The vulcan does appear in stalker vanilla, I had an enemy at the start of pripyat spawn with one. The Striker is semiautomatic until the appropriate upgrade has be purchased. -Scarecrow

:::::Firstly, Scarecrow is mistaken, because I know without even a shadow of a doubt that there's no "Vulcan" gatling gun in Shadow of Chernobyl (I'm a modder and I've spent countless hours going through the game's files for various reasons, if there was a handheld minigun anywhere in the data, I would know about it).

:::::Secondly, I agree that we should cover all three STALKER games on the one page, since most of the weapons in the first game are used in the subsequent two games, with only minor changes and a couple of additions. The TOZ-34 over/under shotgun, Browning Hi-Power and Beretta 92FS were all in the first game, but the first two only existed in the data and were never actually usable in-game, while the Beretta was extremely rare (it was carried by one character only). The second game, Clear Sky, made full use of all of these guns, and added one new one, the PKM. Finally, the third game, Call of Pripyat, includes all of the weapons from the previous two games and adds one, the Armsel Protecta.

:::::Finally, I've been playing Call of Pripyat all week and I'm fairly sure that the Protecta (named "Eliminator" in-game) is portrayed as fully automatic and doesn't have to be modified as such. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yeah, I agree that this page should be moved to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series" and include all the firearms from Shadow of Chernobyl, Clear Sky, and Call of Pripyat. Redirect terms for the search engine should point to this new page as well, such as the individual episode titles as well as the two different ways of typing "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." (with and without the periods). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::I can confirm the Stiker/Protector shotgun. Very Rare! I took one off a bandit when I wiped out a bandit base in the Jupiter map. It had to be modified by the mechanic for auto fire, but it is very effective in-close for chimeras and bloodsuckers. Can take a SUSAT optic. (Wraith)

:::::I think you have to modify the Protecta to fire in full auto. You can also have it modified to fire a bit faster. Secondly, I think certain versions of STALKER (like, special ones that you had to pre-order or whatever) actually had a Vulcan, but I don't think you can get that version anymore, and if you can... well, I don't know how you did it. Oh, and if you guys do end up creating the pages for the other games, you might want to take screenshots of modification tree... things. Just a suggestion.(Person who frequents this site but doesn't feel like creating an account...)

::::::The version of STALKER that contains a minigun is a leaked beta or alpha (I forget which), not a pre-order version. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 20:18, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

:Having checked up, apparently the textures for the minigun are actually in the released early build that GSC put up for download a while ago, but the model isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:25, 4 May 2011 (CDT)

So, is it time to finally switch the article to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"? And yeah, add weapon categories. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:58, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

:Alright, ya all lazybones, had to do begin the work myself. Certainly it's not perfect, so anyone wants to help? Also, <^ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:35, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

==Clear Sky==
:If someone wants me to I could possibly try and find out the whole weapons list for Clear Sky. I have the Russia only special edition. All I would need to do for that is get a translator, as the whole game is in Russian-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 04:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Clear sky Didn't actually add much. All it added was the PKM and made the unused but fully functional weapons available and the "martha" more promenient- 5t3v0

==Makarov PM==
That ain't a Makarov PM, it's the updated version from the 70s or something, called the Makarov PMM, hence the designation in game. How can you tell? The 12 round capacity(when upgraded), and the use of overpressure rounds. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

:That depends on whether we go by appearances or specifications. I vote appearances, because:

:* It's unlikely that the developers knew (or cared) whether the original PM could use overpressure ammunition (remember, they thought having a Desert Eagle chambered in .45 ACP was an acceptable break from realism)
:* The upgrade system doesn't even have the slightest pretense towards realism. In all cases, the 'extended magazine' upgrades are
just pure fantasy. You pay the technician and *poof*, your gun's magazine holds more bullets despite being ''exactly the same size'' as it was before.

:The gun in the games is visibly a Makarov PM, the Makarov PMM has a quite obviously enlarged grip to accommodate the larger ammo capacity, which the in-game model lacks. :Compare the two pictures below:
[[Image:MakarovPM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PM.]][[Image:Makarov PMM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PMM.]]
:with [http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2030/socpm.jpg this one]. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the Desert Eagle being chambered in .45 was most likely because there werent any other guns chambered in the calibres it used like .357 or .44 in game -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]
:::.45?? Pff, c'mon... There is a Deagle in the game chambered in 9x39!!
::::Ah, you are totally right. I saw the black color, put 2 and 2 together, and got 5. My bad. As for the Eagle, at least the 9x39 was a custom job, nevermind how the bullets fit in the magazine(maybe diagonally?) --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was saying as a gameplay decision. The gun is as rare as it is in the vanilla game, what is the point of adding in a calibre that only one pistol that can only be found in one place (supposibly in 2 places, but the second only gets you a USP 45) its own calibre? -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]

==G36 or G36K?==
At first glance the G36 in the game seems to be the carbine variant, but it's actually just a G36 with an unusually short barrel. You can tell by comparing the number of vents in the handguard.

[[Image:HKG36.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36 has six vents.]]
[[Image:H&K-G36K.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36K has four.]]

[http://dog.fpsbanana.com/ss/srends/21132.jpg The G36 from the game has six vents]

So, yeah. I'll adjust the article as necessary. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 06:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

==TOZ-34==
The article states this doesn't appear in the game, but I'm rather sure you can find it in the Wild Territory as part of a quest for the 'family rifle' which you can get at the bar. It is near the Gordon Freeman corpse, inside of the tan shipping crate near him.

:Are you sure you saw it in the unmodded game? I'm fairly sure the 'family rifle' is just an ordinary side-by-side sawn-off in vanilla, and some mods change it to the TOZ-34. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 03:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope, you only retrieve a side-by-side sawed-off double-barrelled shotgun in the vanilla game for that quest. Really odd since in Western gun parlance such a firearm is not often called a "rifle." If it were something like the gun in the following video though, it would be have been much better suited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0boIqkjrNg

The modded gun is a lot more suitable for the quest giver since he seems to be a big game hunter (or rather, big mutant hunter) and such a firearm would be far more plausible. After all, in most of the other "retrieve the weapon" quests, you normally discover that it's a unique variant that leaves you with the decision to either return it to get your reward, or else use it for yourself.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:Apologies to you and MattyDienhoff, I was not running it unmodded, but with the Zone Reclamation Project per the instruction of a friend as its primary goal is bugfixes. Perhaps the authors considered the choice of weapon to be one of the bugs? Either way, I did find the under-over shotgun for the 'Family Rifle', and it had rather nice damage stats. Thanks for the correction, I forget I'm running a mod usually since its goal is just bugfixes.

== USP- full auto ? ==

In Call Of Pripyat, one of the last modifications you can make to the H&K USP is the addition of a full auto firing mode. I was wondering, if it is possible to do the same in real life and if yes will the firearm be able to handle it ?

It is possible to modify almost any semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic (in fact it can be accidentally done to quite a few). Could the USP handle it? With a few changes, yes.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:21, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

== TV Show ==

Did you hear that the Russians (the developers of the game to be more specific) are making a TV show about these games? I saw it on various gaming sites, and I cannot decide whether it is true or fake :P - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 10:29, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

:The developers of the game aren't Russians, they are Ukrainians - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSC_Game_World GSC Game World] :P
:But yeah, [http://stalker-gsc.ru/index/serial_stalker_stalker_skachat_serial_stalker_smotret_onlajn_vse_serii/0-133 S.T.A.L.K.E.R. TV Series] will be aired in 2011-2012 and [http://stalker-gsc.ru/publ/stalker_video/serial_stalker/trejler_seriala_s_t_a_l_k_e_r/41-1-0-4614 trailer of it] is already out. Among the cast is [http://entertainnow.net/video/person.php?pid=220&nm=Gosha_Kutsenko Gosha Kutsenko] - well known actor in Russia. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:33, 14 September 2011 (CDT)
:P.S. To translate pages, use sites such as [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate] or [http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Babel Fish].

The TV show is on hold for now, they are currently concentrating on the movie(!) and second game.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:16, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

Talk:S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl

2011-09-15T16:16:54Z

Ranger01: /* TV Show */

==Inspiration==

Has anyone seen the movie this game is based off of?-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 00:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)

:No, I haven't. I didn't even know it was based off of anything. Sounds interesting though, what's the film? --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]] 07:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::This, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(film) [[User:Dongs|Dongs]] 07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Jesus Christ it's boring-S&Wshooter

:I have read "Roadside picnic" (rusgunnut1)

==Arsenal==
Since those who aren't even remotely interested in realistic depictions of weapons in games wouldn't be here, I figure those who are might be interested in this:

There's a mod out there for STALKER called [http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_page=1&thm_id=15469&sec_id=16&offset=-180 'Arsenal']. It adds about 80 new weapon models (no joke), all with good textures, new (mostly accurate) animations, sounds, HUD icons, descriptions in the menu... All properly coded so they have realistic stats. Almost all of the default weapon models are replaced with new (non-mirrored) ones, almost all weapon animations are reworked, so there's no more pointless slide-pulling when you equip pistols, there are different animations for dry and partial reloads, and the depiction of recoil looks a lot better, it's not so rigid now. Finally, many of the game's peculiarities are fixed (the Desert Eagle now fires .50AE, not .45 ACP, for example). All told it makes the game's weaponry ''far'' more authentic. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 13:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
:This mod is incredibly cool, especially if it matter to you to have different versions of the same gun. Aesthetic choices are much expanded, such as different furniture(wood, bakelite, plastic, camo colors etc) for AKs. It gets really cool if you combine it with Oblivion Lost, which has it's own additions(such as MAC 10s, FN P90s, etc). It does take a large number of additional files to get the two mods to work together and work with STALKER. Not to mention, your computer. Anyway, TRY IT!!! --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

Is there a reason all the rifles have left hand ejections for the empty brass?
:In arsenal they don't. Some of the OL stuff does, like the Bizon which is still mirrored. But Arsenal doesn't. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was actually going here to say about the Arsenal Mod, but I see it's known not only in Russia =)
So I wanted to suggest to create a new page specially for АМod because I think that it is good enough for this purpose, but too big to include it in this S.T.A.L.K.E.R. page.
Our "job" is to collect all the guns in movies and games, so I think what the AMod is actually
what we need. Sorry for my english again... --[[User:FAMAS|FAMAS]] 23 October 2010

:I disagree. As much as I like Arsenal, it's a mod and a pretty obscure one at that. While we do have some pages on "mods" (example: [[Insurgency]]), most of those are mods that have gone commercial (like [[Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45]]) or are officially recognized in some way (Insurgency, for instance, is distributed on Steam). I really don't think it's notable enough to justify a presence here. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 07:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

==S.T.A.L.K.E.R clear sky and Call of pripyat new weapons ==

I know because the weapons don't really change it wouldn't warrant a new page for all 3 games, but how about a section on this page for the new weapons they have added in both games? while they both feature the same weapons, clear sky added the PKM and call of pripyat (currently unreleased) is adding an automatic version of the armsel striker, and hopefully some more (somewhat doubtful). doing this we may have to change it from "S.T.A.L.K.E.R shadow of chernobyl" to just "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"- 5t3v0

:I was thinking of doing that, though the PKM was actually in STALKER itself before it was in Clear Sky anyway (I've got a preview screenshot showing a PKM on a monopod in Bar) and there's a leaked Beta that apparently featured a usable minigun. I'm not sure about the Striker; given the team, isn't it more likely to be a Saiga-12? [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 04:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::Nope, not the saiga, its the striker [http://cop.stalker-game.com/?page=eliminator]. Don't worry, many stalker fans were dissappointed by the lack of SAIGA. I'm not sure, is the striker semi-automatic only? I heard somewhere on the Forums that its full auto -5t3v0

:::Striker is semi-auto only, it's just sometimes depicted in games as fullauto. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 11:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

::::The vulcan does appear in stalker vanilla, I had an enemy at the start of pripyat spawn with one. The Striker is semiautomatic until the appropriate upgrade has be purchased. -Scarecrow

:::::Firstly, Scarecrow is mistaken, because I know without even a shadow of a doubt that there's no "Vulcan" gatling gun in Shadow of Chernobyl (I'm a modder and I've spent countless hours going through the game's files for various reasons, if there was a handheld minigun anywhere in the data, I would know about it).

:::::Secondly, I agree that we should cover all three STALKER games on the one page, since most of the weapons in the first game are used in the subsequent two games, with only minor changes and a couple of additions. The TOZ-34 over/under shotgun, Browning Hi-Power and Beretta 92FS were all in the first game, but the first two only existed in the data and were never actually usable in-game, while the Beretta was extremely rare (it was carried by one character only). The second game, Clear Sky, made full use of all of these guns, and added one new one, the PKM. Finally, the third game, Call of Pripyat, includes all of the weapons from the previous two games and adds one, the Armsel Protecta.

:::::Finally, I've been playing Call of Pripyat all week and I'm fairly sure that the Protecta (named "Eliminator" in-game) is portrayed as fully automatic and doesn't have to be modified as such. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yeah, I agree that this page should be moved to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series" and include all the firearms from Shadow of Chernobyl, Clear Sky, and Call of Pripyat. Redirect terms for the search engine should point to this new page as well, such as the individual episode titles as well as the two different ways of typing "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." (with and without the periods). --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::I can confirm the Stiker/Protector shotgun. Very Rare! I took one off a bandit when I wiped out a bandit base in the Jupiter map. It had to be modified by the mechanic for auto fire, but it is very effective in-close for chimeras and bloodsuckers. Can take a SUSAT optic. (Wraith)

:::::I think you have to modify the Protecta to fire in full auto. You can also have it modified to fire a bit faster. Secondly, I think certain versions of STALKER (like, special ones that you had to pre-order or whatever) actually had a Vulcan, but I don't think you can get that version anymore, and if you can... well, I don't know how you did it. Oh, and if you guys do end up creating the pages for the other games, you might want to take screenshots of modification tree... things. Just a suggestion.(Person who frequents this site but doesn't feel like creating an account...)

::::::The version of STALKER that contains a minigun is a leaked beta or alpha (I forget which), not a pre-order version. [[User:Vangelis|Vangelis]] 20:18, 5 March 2011 (MSK)

:Having checked up, apparently the textures for the minigun are actually in the released early build that GSC put up for download a while ago, but the model isn't. [[User:Evil Tim|Evil Tim]] 07:25, 4 May 2011 (CDT)

So, is it time to finally switch the article to "S.T.A.L.K.E.R series"? And yeah, add weapon categories. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 01:58, 28 June 2011 (CDT)

:Alright, ya all lazybones, had to do begin the work myself. Certainly it's not perfect, so anyone wants to help? Also, <^ --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 08:35, 5 July 2011 (CDT)

==Clear Sky==
:If someone wants me to I could possibly try and find out the whole weapons list for Clear Sky. I have the Russia only special edition. All I would need to do for that is get a translator, as the whole game is in Russian-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 04:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Clear sky Didn't actually add much. All it added was the PKM and made the unused but fully functional weapons available and the "martha" more promenient- 5t3v0

==Makarov PM==
That ain't a Makarov PM, it's the updated version from the 70s or something, called the Makarov PMM, hence the designation in game. How can you tell? The 12 round capacity(when upgraded), and the use of overpressure rounds. --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

:That depends on whether we go by appearances or specifications. I vote appearances, because:

:* It's unlikely that the developers knew (or cared) whether the original PM could use overpressure ammunition (remember, they thought having a Desert Eagle chambered in .45 ACP was an acceptable break from realism)
:* The upgrade system doesn't even have the slightest pretense towards realism. In all cases, the 'extended magazine' upgrades are
just pure fantasy. You pay the technician and *poof*, your gun's magazine holds more bullets despite being ''exactly the same size'' as it was before.

:The gun in the games is visibly a Makarov PM, the Makarov PMM has a quite obviously enlarged grip to accommodate the larger ammo capacity, which the in-game model lacks. :Compare the two pictures below:
[[Image:MakarovPM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PM.]][[Image:Makarov PMM.jpg|none|thumb|300px|Makarov PMM.]]
:with [http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2030/socpm.jpg this one]. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 11:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the Desert Eagle being chambered in .45 was most likely because there werent any other guns chambered in the calibres it used like .357 or .44 in game -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]
:::.45?? Pff, c'mon... There is a Deagle in the game chambered in 9x39!!
::::Ah, you are totally right. I saw the black color, put 2 and 2 together, and got 5. My bad. As for the Eagle, at least the 9x39 was a custom job, nevermind how the bullets fit in the magazine(maybe diagonally?) --[[User:ManiacallyChallenged|ManiacallyChallenged]]

I was saying as a gameplay decision. The gun is as rare as it is in the vanilla game, what is the point of adding in a calibre that only one pistol that can only be found in one place (supposibly in 2 places, but the second only gets you a USP 45) its own calibre? -[[User:5t3v0|5t3v0]]

==G36 or G36K?==
At first glance the G36 in the game seems to be the carbine variant, but it's actually just a G36 with an unusually short barrel. You can tell by comparing the number of vents in the handguard.

[[Image:HKG36.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36 has six vents.]]
[[Image:H&K-G36K.jpg‎|thumb|none|400px|The G36K has four.]]

[http://dog.fpsbanana.com/ss/srends/21132.jpg The G36 from the game has six vents]

So, yeah. I'll adjust the article as necessary. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 06:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

==TOZ-34==
The article states this doesn't appear in the game, but I'm rather sure you can find it in the Wild Territory as part of a quest for the 'family rifle' which you can get at the bar. It is near the Gordon Freeman corpse, inside of the tan shipping crate near him.

:Are you sure you saw it in the unmodded game? I'm fairly sure the 'family rifle' is just an ordinary side-by-side sawn-off in vanilla, and some mods change it to the TOZ-34. --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 03:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope, you only retrieve a side-by-side sawed-off double-barrelled shotgun in the vanilla game for that quest. Really odd since in Western gun parlance such a firearm is not often called a "rifle." If it were something like the gun in the following video though, it would be have been much better suited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0boIqkjrNg

The modded gun is a lot more suitable for the quest giver since he seems to be a big game hunter (or rather, big mutant hunter) and such a firearm would be far more plausible. After all, in most of the other "retrieve the weapon" quests, you normally discover that it's a unique variant that leaves you with the decision to either return it to get your reward, or else use it for yourself.--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:Apologies to you and MattyDienhoff, I was not running it unmodded, but with the Zone Reclamation Project per the instruction of a friend as its primary goal is bugfixes. Perhaps the authors considered the choice of weapon to be one of the bugs? Either way, I did find the under-over shotgun for the 'Family Rifle', and it had rather nice damage stats. Thanks for the correction, I forget I'm running a mod usually since its goal is just bugfixes.

== USP- full auto ? ==

In Call Of Pripyat, one of the last modifications you can make to the H&K USP is the addition of a full auto firing mode. I was wondering, if it is possible to do the same in real life and if yes will the firearm be able to handle it ?

== TV Show ==

Did you hear that the Russians (the developers of the game to be more specific) are making a TV show about these games? I saw it on various gaming sites, and I cannot decide whether it is true or fake :P - [[User:Bozitojugg3rn4ut|bozitojugg3rn4ut]] 10:29, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

:The developers of the game aren't Russians, they are Ukrainians - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSC_Game_World GSC Game World] :P
:But yeah, [http://stalker-gsc.ru/index/serial_stalker_stalker_skachat_serial_stalker_smotret_onlajn_vse_serii/0-133 S.T.A.L.K.E.R. TV Series] will be aired in 2011-2012 and [http://stalker-gsc.ru/publ/stalker_video/serial_stalker/trejler_seriala_s_t_a_l_k_e_r/41-1-0-4614 trailer of it] is already out. Among the cast is [http://entertainnow.net/video/person.php?pid=220&nm=Gosha_Kutsenko Gosha Kutsenko] - well known actor in Russia. --[[User:Masterius|Masterius]] 14:33, 14 September 2011 (CDT)
:P.S. To translate pages, use sites such as [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate] or [http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Babel Fish].

The TV show is on hold for now, they are currently concentrating on the movie(!) and second game.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:16, 15 September 2011 (CDT)

Talk:Black Hawk Down

2011-02-12T23:43:17Z

Ranger01: /* Nelson's M60 */

== Hoot's "M4" ==
I think the article should be amended to only mention the weapon seen on Hoot's person when he's confronted by Capt. Steele during chow time. The weapon he's holding in the screengrab of him being picked up by Wolcott and the Delta guys is the same M727 he uses in the rest of the film. --[[Special:Contributions/131.216.48.250|131.216.48.250]] 16:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the carbine Sanderson handed him had the knobs signifying a detachable carry handle. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::Pretty damn sure. The front corner of that carry handle in the screencaps is too thin to be from an M4's carry handle. Definitely the mark of an A2 upper's carry handle as seen on M727s--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

== This probably isn't very important, but... ==
I went through and corrected the abbreviated ranks. Most of them were in Marine Corps form as opposed to Army form (ex., SSgt vs SSG). Like I said, probably not worth mentioning, but it's a little detail that was bugging me. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

== Weapon used by delta force ==

M4 was issued in 1994 before the battle which took place in 1993 ...the weapon seen in the movie and used by Delta operators was CAR-15

: If you'll look at the upper reciever and carry handle/rear-sight assembly, you'll see they match the [[M16 rifle series#M16A2 Rifle|M16A2]]-style of the early-model M4 carbine as shown in the picture above the screenshots. The CAR-15 (also known as the [[M16 rifle series#Colt Commando Carbine|Colt Commando]]) used the recievers and carry handle/rear sight assembly of the [[M16 rifle series#M16A1 Rifle|M16A1]]. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, the stock is wrong for the CAR15...its an M4
:How is the stock "wrong"? And no M4 has the flash suppressor of the Car-15 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Isn't it more likely that Randy Shughart was actually carrying a Springfield M21 rather than the M14?
:No, he was carrying a M14 during the actual battle and it is in his Medal of Honor citation. So its definitely a M14.
::Do you happen to have a link to his MoH citation? The book accounted that Shughart used an M21. --''[[User:Blemo|Blemo]] 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
:::To Blemo - I've got the book in my lap. Page 208, and I quote, "They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip." Right there in black and white. --[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
:Your point about the issue date of the M4 flies in the face of the logic that "IT'S A MOVIE".-protoAuthor 01:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
:Your point about "It's a movie" is in the face of the logic that we shouldn't use our brains and common sense. It's like watching a 1920s movie and seeing someone riding into a scene with a 1970 Mustang. Would you use the "It's a movie" logic there? What about a WWII movie and you see an F-18 shooting sidewinders at a Japanese Zero? The point of this site is so that we do point of the little details. It's like in IMDB where it points out which movie a certain actor has been in and what his role is. The same here on this side except you replace "Actor" with "pick a gun". Accuracy is the whole point. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]
:My point was, movies don't get things 100% correct.-protoAuthor 03:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

:Sometimes. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mistake? ==
There's a scene in the movie (1:37:53) where Yurek, Nelson and Twombly are about to rejoin the other Rangers at the Black Hawk crash site. While Yurek is on the radio to Eversmann (Josh Hartnett's character) he grabs a mag out of a Type 47 that a dead Somali soldier is still holding. Since the Rangers are all carrying 5.56 NATO M4A2s and FN Minimis, what would be the point of grabbing a 7.62mm mag? Seems like an odd oversight considering the camera kinda focuses on him taking the mag, and they've worked quite hard to maintain accuracy and detail in the film. Any ideas? Am I missing something? [[User:DamageW|DamageW]] 06:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:What the hell is a Type 47?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 15:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::i dont know, but they did that so the weapon was useless for someone to pick up and use. He probaly just ditched it later. -[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]
:::He's talking about an AK-47, but Type 47 definately isn't the right term. I always assumed he took it as a memento or something, because anyone can reload a weapon even if the magazine is removed. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::Actually, he grabs the mag because he's carrying an M60, and he probably figured he may be able to use the ammo later. Also, many SF types are known to, in extreme need, use the local weapons, and he may also have been preparing for that eventuality. [[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Taking AK rounds for an M60? the M60 fires 7.62x51 rounds, while the AK fires 7.62x39, plus you'd need to have the rounds already on a belt to be fired by an M60. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::I think that what Yurek was trying to do was deny the enemy ammunition should they pick up the AK. The Bowden's book accounted that many Somalis that were killed would have others reuse the same weapon. They briefly showed that when Busch was making his last stand by the downed chopper. Also, he may have kept it as a souvenir. It's not everyday you'll find a loaded AK magazine that had the potential to kill you. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Actually, I was suggesting that he was picking up the mag out of fear that at some point, he would need to resort to using an Ak, or that he would have the ammo if someone else had already been forced to pick up a local weapon. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
----
Also, What the motherfuck is an M4A2?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:The motherfuck that is an M4A2 is basically an M4 produced by another company such as Bushmaster Firearms. It's just another "M4gery". Also, Google is everyone's friend and it wouldn't hurt to ask it. ;) --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::I'd like to think he kept it as a souvenir, although the actual reason was whenever a member of militia was killed they were extremely dedicated to retrieving the body and the firearm, so removing the magazine would have made it useless, although picking up the the weapon and smashing it to pieces would probably have worked better[[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 14:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Smashing the weapon would have been noisy and they were trying to be quiet at that point IIRC.
::::fair point but i was thinking more like removing the driver spring, and its probably just that it would have made one less magazine for the somalians to use
I think the reason is that the enemy has 30 rounds less against the rangers. It's like in 'Saving Privat Ryan': the rescue team left Steamboat Willy alive; so he could kill Captain Miller. A wise decision of Yurek, I think

I noticed another mistake. During the scene where Gordon and Shughart are holding off the Somalis at the crash sight there's a quick moment when Shughart is seen using an M16A2 rifle instead of his M14 rifle. And in the very next scene and all following he's back to using the M14. [[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]

::::: I believe it was because he was firing his M14 until it ran out of ammo, and then using a helo crew member's M16 before retreating to reload both rifles.:::

:::- Yes, that's the case. Gordon is also seen dropping his CAR-15 when it's empty and using his 1911. Later, when Shughart is killed, he fires the M14 'til it's empty, then switching to his 1911, and when that is empty, using an MP5 from the chopper. Hell, they're being overwhelmed, and it is quicker to pick up and and shoot another weapon that is ready than reload the present one. They were pretty much using whatever they could trying their damndest to fend an army off, I would think that was obvious. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mike Durant's Book ==
In Mike Durant's book "The Night Stalkers" he quoted a few weapons he was using in the real life in the "Mog". I remember him talking about his MP5 not to metion he called it a "german piece of crap" for jamming. He also said Randy's Commando was on burst-fire 3 shots 1 kill. And the mini guns the rescue team could have been using can not run on the Black Hawk's batteries only on pure engine generating turbine power.
:To be fair, Mike Durant also seems to know very little about firearms. Also note that his memory may be jarred by the fact that, you know, he had just suffered a fucking HELICOPTER CRASH. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
::Actually, helicopter pilots have to be trained with certain firearms in order to survive in the event of a crash. Durant at least knew how to clear the jam on the 9mm submachine gun. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::160th SOAR aircrews, being a part of ASOC are trained not only in their specific role in the aircraft, but also on how to continue with the mission at hand along with their "customers." Hence, they're well-familiarized with fighting with the weapons carried on board with them (in the case of what was aboard Super-64, MP5s for the pilots, M16s for the crewchiefs and M9s carried by all of them).
:::What baffles me is how his MP5 kept jamming (in the book atleast). I know they were in the desert, but that MP5 had been stashed inside a helicopter, so it wouldn't be all dusty and full of sand. Maybe it is a German piece of crap then [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it was dusty inside of the chopper. Flying around in a helicopter with the rotor wash sending dust, smoke, and sand into and around the cabin won't help the MP5 from jamming, either. Pilots don't normally clean their emergency back-up weapons as they're supposed to. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Helicopter crews don't regularly use their weapons and so may not be as maintenance-minded as a Ranger or Delta. That could be one reason it kept jamming. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I did read Mike Durant's book and would like to point out he referred to Randy's weapon as a High-Tech rifle. as we all no, it was a vietnam era M14. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 21:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

:I just stared reading Durant's "In the Company of Heroes" before he called it a "German piece of crap", he said the MP5 had shot fine at the range but he probably had neglected to clean it. It was after Shughart gave him Gordon's CAR-15 which didn't jam and was far more effective despite only having half a mag left he thought of the MP5 as a piece of shit. He also had an M9 that he never drew, which he said probably saved his life since he wasn't seen as a threat. While Shughart's M14 isn't really a "High-Tech rifle" it was a lot better than a bolt-gun in the situation he was in. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 18:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

== The Hand ==
Does anyone know why that Ranger took the dead Delta Force member's hand?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:Probably to send it home with the rest of the body-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 16:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)
::I figured that too. But it's kind of creepy going around carrying an dead man's severed hand in your pocket. What about the smell? However, if i died in combat, i would like if my body went home and i had an funeral.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:::In the book, Othic took the hand that he had found and put it in his pocket to return it to the Delta operator that was blown in half. He had placed it with his body after he died, but strangely the movie did not show that, and made it seem like Othic kept the hand. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::::It wasn't the Delta Operator's hand. The shots of MSGTTim "Griz" Martin after being hit by the RPG show his hand still intact. More likely it belonged to one of the other soldiers aboard the truck that got hit. MSGT Martin was shipped off to Germany IIRC where he succumbed to his wounds shortly after.
:I bet it started to smell after a while-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==Flashlight Attachment Help==
[[Image:BHD Commando Flashlight.jpg|thumb|none|600px|What is this type of flashlight attachment called?]]
''What is the technical term for the flashlight to be attached to the '''barrel''' of the AR-15 series? It seems to be used only when there are handguards in place of the RIS railing. Sergeants Hoot, Busch, Sanderson, Gordon, and a couple other Deltas used the same attachment.'' --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 01:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:Before R.I.S. was introduced, I used to see a whole bunch of different flashlight attachments just like that one in the Blue Press. Some of them were even advertised as able to work on multiple types of weapons in the same caliber (i.e. AR-15s and Mini-14s). There were many different brands, so we can't be 100% sure what this movie's armorers used. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

::Oh, thanks, but I didn't mean what brands the movie used. I meant, what the generic term for these types of attachments that connect the flashlight to the barrel are called. I'm thinking about purchasing one for an AR-15 platform without the RIS. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 03:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::It's a barrel mount for a flashlight, that specific one was made by Surefire.

:::: Like the above said, It's a barrel mounted flashlight, made by Surefire. I actually managed to buy one of them that had been used in the Operation Gothic Serpent theater. These are still a good alternative to adding the weight of a rail to your firearm. I believe the flashlight is a model 600 or something similar.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==M4 in 1994?==
Question about the M4 not being period correct. If the events took place in September 1993 and the M4 went into service sometime in 1994, isn't possible that members of an elite group like Delta Force could have gotten their hands on a couple?

:I'd say it's plausible that Delta could have been field-testing a few XM4s that day. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

::In today's case, some special units are using the HK416 in the field. It likely that this was also the case with the M4 in 1993. That, or the armorers to the film got lazy and decided to throw in a few M4's for the M4 fans. Unlikely, but movies will do this. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:Well it isn't completely out there that at the time US special forces can get their hands on some experimental weapons and field test them. But I think for this movie, they just ran out of Car-15s to give to the Delta actors.[[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)he

The m4 was used in service since 1997 it is not possible for an m4 to be used.the delta operators may have used a xm117e2.

:Just because it didn't go into service until 94 or 97 doesn't mean D-boys didn't have a hold of them. There could well have been a prototype (or many test models) sent out with D-boys to see if the rifle performed to what was expected.
More than likely just an error. The simplest explanation is usually correct (Occam's Razor) BA
More likely than not the M4 in the film is simply an anachronism due to a shortage of Colt Commandos. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 02:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

'''Don't forget about the 10th Mountain and the U.N Soldiers. Whoever created this page missed them completly and they had alot of firearms. Whats omore is i can't for some reason edit the page. the autheor needs to fix this right away'''

::I have explained elsewhere that the Colt Model 727 carbine, which LOOKS just like an early M4 (but has a semi/full-auto trigger group, rather than semi/burst as on the Model 777, AKA the earliest M4) was introduced in the late-1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 05:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

:::The 727 has a fixed carry handle, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

::::So did the Model 777, which is the first gun that was ever adopted by the U.S. military as the "M4". The 727 and 777 are the same gun aside from their trigger groups. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::I'm fairly certain this convo is referring to the later M4 with detachable carry handle. That's why I mentioned the 727 having an A2 upper. ;) [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...

== Shughart and the M14/M16 switch ==
Does anyone know if Shughart briefly using an M16A2 while defending Durant's crash site is intentional or a mistake? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

:intentional, in the book moments beforehand hed asked durant where the spare weapons were kept aboard the black hawk, and for some reason this scene was omitted from the film. Shughart had ran dry with his 7.62 M14 and so couldnt have used the 5.56 from the M16 mags. :)

::Yeah, Shughart asked if there were any spare rifles or radios ''after'' Gordon got shot. This caused Durant to realize that Gordon may have been hit and that they were stranded on their own. However, the book didn't mention Shughart ''actually'' using the M16. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, good point, but i dont get why brad hallings didnt join them? he could have done so much more on the ground than on the black hawk, especially since he had his leg blown off up there aswell. oh and btw, im a newcomer, how do i tag comments with my name at the end?
:By putting four ~ at the end of every message.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thanks :) [[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 00:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe the reason why Halling didn’t insert with the Shughart and Gordon was because by the time the team was given the go-ahead to insert, Halling had taken control of the minigun due to a member of the helicopter crew being injured.--[[User:Mauser|Mauser]] 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

i dont know if he was actually using it, but in the movie version i think were supposed to think he took from a crew chief (since they carried an m16a2

the guy must have to taken the m16 from one of the blackhawk passengers and the blackhawks do carry spare weapons on board. (actual assassin)

Im sure most people so dedicated to this site probably noticed this but ill say it anyway. (**SPOILER**) ok right as MSsgt. Gordon is shot in the head and Shughart checks him it flashes over to Durant, and sure enough if you look you'll notice Gordon's CAR-15 on his lap. moments later Shughart runs over to Durant hands him the CAR-15 and says "Gordy's gone man, i'll be outside...Goodluck." just pointing it out. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

== Change made to 1911 article/picture ==

Not sure where IMDB gets its info from, but Kim Coates plays Master Sergeant Tim 'Griz' Martin, the unfortunate Delta operator who was blown in half by the RPG when the convoy is attempting to extract. He is not the Delta operator seen using the 1911 at the firing range and the picture and article have been edited for correction.

--[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

All the Delta Force members' names were changed for the film except for Busch, Shughart and Gordon. "Wex" is the name credited to Kim Coates in the end credits. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Anybody else notice that when Wex is firing his 1911, he's walking down the range towards the targets while people behind him are still firing? seems kind of unsafe.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 19:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

-- In a deleted scene, it is shown that Eversman calls cease fire on the range in response to him moving into the line of fire, and just responding to such percieved recklessness by simply muttering "Fuckin' Delta..."--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 22:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

on topic of 1911s does anyone know what kind of 1911s they really used? for example i find it hard to believe they would be using normal 1911s when the MK.IVs were out

-- They were regular M1911A1s as it is cheaper for the armorers to use GI style pistols instead of procuring brand new weapons or paying a pistolsmith for costly modifications on movie props that could later be used in other films. In reality, Delta operators would take their issued 1911s (which were often relics found in the supply system) and have them done by some of the best pistolsmiths they could find to do the work (or do the work in-house when at all possible). Some of that talent rubbed off on the operators themselves; Larry Vickers, a former Delta Operator himself, is one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the business and is one of the go-to guys for Delta's custom 1911s.

== Dillon/GE Miniguns ==

The Miniguns during the actual event would have been GE M134s. The Miniguns in the movie were Dillon Aero Miniguns, but not quite M134Ds. They had some of the DA upgrades on them though. That's from the commentary and some interviews online with Dillon Aero. I remember it being mentioned in one of the special features that the Dillon guns in the movie could have been fired off the Black Hawk's batteries, but the older GE ones in the real incident would have been unuseable at the crash site.

== 870 Remington Shotgun. ==

Not sure if this is worth noting, but in real life, the operator on who SGT. Sanderson was based, Paul Howe, had his shotgun rigged under his CAR-15 in a "Masterkey" configuration. Also, it can be seen being used in the directors cut to breach a door.

== Rescue Heli Star 41 ==

The AH-6, that inbounds to Wolcott's crash site (Star 41), has miniguns and rocket pods. The helicopter that is finally landing at the chrashed Black Hawk hasn't any weapons onboard, so probably a MH-6.
:Continuity error most likely. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

== Flashlights ==
I watched the movie, and I was wondering, if Delta force had flashlights on their M733 and M727's, why didnt they use them? I could see that they would want to keep stealth in night, but if they're firing at the enemy, the muzzle flash would show their position anyway.

:Actors probably forgot or were never told [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Flashlights are not going to give you enough illumination to shoot at targets across buildings. They're better for room clearing. Besides you wouldn't use them if you have NOD's. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)v
:Not to mention a flashlight beam in that environment would scream, "here I am, shoot me!" [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

does anyone no how they would have mounted the tac-lights back then? like now-a-days we have RIS/Picatanny rails. then they would mod it to the barrel. how would they do that if they have a shotgun under the barrel? Larry Vickers mentioned that he hose clamped his to the bottom of the barrel. but he didnt have a masterkey. any suggestions? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 15:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hose clamped it to the side or top of the barrel? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Larry had his hose-clamped to the bottom. he used his in Panama (acid Gambit) i was surprised at how resoursefull they were. he also took some cardboard and put them inbetween Mags for a quick reload. and the aimpoint on his gun looked ancient. [[Special:Contributions/71.194.219.9|71.194.219.9]] 22:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

== Possible Error? ==
Anyone notice that the picture of Sanderson firing his M727 during the Mogadishu Mile? It looks like the chamber is clear and the bolt is open. That means the weapon is empty, but in the movie you still hear two more shots before he switches to his sidearm. Is it just the angle, or is it just an error in continuity?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a continuity error, a continuity error would be when one seen a guy has a 1911 and the next he suddenly has a Beretta M9. I can't say for I don't remember this. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 16:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

== Actor in the Specials ==

Do we see this actor in Delta costume in the movie often? Because all the behind the scenes shot is this guy and I don't recognize him. Is he an extra that is like way in the back of the other guys? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

What guy?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This guy
[[Image:BHD2Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor aims Durant's MP5 in movie armory. Note the other weapons behind him.]]
[[Image:BHD1Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor in Delta clothes shows M16A2 in the movie armory.]]
[[Image:DHD3Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta actor shows vehicle-mounted M60s.]]

That's Jeremy Piven, nowadays best known for playing Ari Gold on HBO's Entourage. Wikipedia says he played CFO Clifton Wolcott.

:I do not think it Piven. In the film he plays a pilot role and his hair is black.
http://files.haiguinet.com/flashupload/UploadedFiles/1252005569_159Jeremy_Piven.jpg
http://emsworth.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/jeremy-piven-in-black-hawk-down-2.jpg
When I put the photos on the page, before to name him "delta actor", I looked for the name of this guy in the entire cast. Unsuccessfully. I think it is a stunt.--[[User:Charly Driver|Charly Driver]] 17:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

== Seriously ==
[[Image:BHD 015.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta Force SFC Sanderson ([[William Fichtner]]) fires his M1911A1 during the "Mogadishu Mile". It seems unlikely a well trained operator would wear his flight gloves like shown.]]
Seriously? A well trained operator wouldnt wear his gloves like that? This mall-ninja crap needs to stop. Theres no special way to wear flight gloves, you put the goddamn things on and wear 'em. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
:Actually, special forces operators of that era often wore flight gloves, just like that. Fun fact. Flight gloves are made for use by individuals who fly planes; they need a glove that will keep their hands a bit warmer than they normally will be, but will still allow them to feel the tactile sensation of the various knobs and switches and provide the nimbleness that the human hand gives us. The solution? Flight gloves. They are the precursors to the gloves we see in use by military units now; the Oakley tacticool gloves (fun fact: Oakley started out making motorcycle gloves) or the Blackhawk gloves and what have you. I'm really loving these mall-ninjas popping up thinking they know about shooting or special forces work. I can think of a few damn good reasons off the top of my hand to never, ever take gloves off in a combat situation, personally, and a well-fitted pair of gloves will be just like a second skin.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 01:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I believe the comment means it isn't likely he'd wear them while shooting - Full-finger gloves can be obstructive/restrictive when it comes to finger movement, which isn't exactly a good thing when you need to make accurate shots. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 01:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

::Flight gloves, as I just fucking explained, are not restrictive or obstructive in the slightest.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

:::- ''Uh, I had replied below I didn't know about these gloves specifically, which you seem to have failed to notice. Just as you also seem to have failed to notice that all these comments you posted this slightly irritable and unnecessary response in-between were all posted '''days ago'''. It might help if you thoroughly read the comments and check the dates next time.'' [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 15:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Honestly how would anyone here really know....are any of you "operators"?? -and if you say yes I'm going to say that your lying.....I'm going to delete that quip about his gloves in the caption, it's not hard to shoot with gloves on, especially flyers gloves. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
:Thank you, it just bugs the living shit outta me when armchair commandos think they know operator/tactical/omfgdelta stuff. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
::- Well, I'm indeed no 'operator', but I don't have to be one to know that it is hard to shoot with some gloves, especially if you're making distance shots. But I'm not familiar with flight gloves specifically, so I guess they're no trouble, I don't know. In any case, it just seemed to me the context of Winn's comment was that he was saying that it was stating merely that the gloves need to be worn some special way (and Winns right - they're gloves, what special way is there), but that's the problem with text sometimes. Anyway, not trying to make a valid claim, just an opinion. I can't speak for whoever made original remark, though. Either way, I never gave that comment much thought myself. I'm personally more peeved about quips on peoples (actors) stances myself. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Flight gloves are a very thin layer of Nomex with a Clarino palm and finger overlaid. These are very light, wick sweat, and give you tactile feeling and the ability to perform tasks as though you were bare handed. They are maybe a few mm thick on the palms, and do not affect in any way your shooting ability or accuracy, even whilst firing an M249, which is notorious for running away due to gloves getting stuck and holding the trigger back.

==Discussion about the bullets, or something==
- Something I always found a bit funny about that particular scene - Sanderson misses the two targets with his 727 carbine (firing several shots), yet hits them both with one .45 shot each (or actually, maybe one was hit twice, and the other once). Heh. But of course, I'd imagine some people can actually be better with a handgun than a rifle in some instances. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

I haven't seen the movie in a few months, but if I remember correctly he had actually hit the targets with his rifle, but the rounds went completely through and didn't kill the targets. So he used his .45 to actually kill them. There is a part in the book where it is mentioned that they had been issued "green tip" rounds (armor piercing/ anti personnel 5.56 ammo with a steel penetrator tip), and another part that talked about the rounds lack of effectiveness against the drugged up Somalis. One guy unloaded a belt from his SAW into a couple Somalis and they kept coming at them b/c the rounds just went right through and didn't do any major (fight stopping) damage. Another reason why they talk about how Randy Shughart was a smart SOB for using a 7.62 M14 and normal ammo. As for the gloves... Flight gloves have been used for years by ground personnel because they are thin enough to still be able to feel things with your hands, but they are still something to protect against scrapes, burns, dirt, etc.. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No argument here Ranger. but i would also like to point out in the book Mark also mentions that they(the rangers) fired SAW and believe it or not M-60 ammunition, that would happen to be the same M-60 that carries the heavy hitting 7.62mm however that guy was probably high as a kite anyways so idont think it would have made much of a difference. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

:- That's all fascinating, except in the movie, Sanderson (Fichtner) just ''missed them''. I was remarking on how the movie showed him ''missing'' two almost perfectly still targets with the 727 carbine and hitting them with the .45. That's all. Interesting tidbit about the ammo though. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

Well, the point about RS and his M14 was what the book said. It was not so much the size of the bullet, but whether or not it was AP ammo (super hard bullet at very high velocity). An AP round from a 5.56 to the heart will create a very small hole, and if the person who is shot is high on drugs then they are probably not even going to notice it until they finally keel over (which will probably take a while). At the same time a FMJ from a .45 while it still probably wont blow the heart to kingdom come, will make a large enough hole that it will cause bleed out to happen faster (hopefully fast enough). Then again at close range any 5.56 and even 7.62 ammo isnt going to be as effective as a .45 round b/c of the rifle round's high velocities compared to the .45s low velocity. When faced with an unarmored threat below about 50 yards, a pistol round (be it .45, 9mm, .40, etc) is going to be much more effective (unless it is something like the 5.7 round, which has no immediate stopping power unless a CNS or head shot is attained). Long post short: will a 5.56 or 7.62 to the heart kill someone at close range? Most likely yes. Will it do it quick enough to stop an attacker from killing/ wounding you or your allies? Maybe. If he missed them, then it was probably just to add suspense or a "weapon switch to show he is an elite operator" shot to the scene.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 00:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

um this is extremely off topic like usual but id just like for someone to explain the purpose of using a 5.56 by a Counter-Terrorist Unit. tell me if im missing something but when their clearing rooms A.) the round wont immediatly kill a combatant when you wont him to die. and 2. say its an assault on multiple rooms at once and boom you miss your target (or it just passes through him) and boom goes through the wall like the round is meant to and bam! clips a friendly or even worse a hostage. explain the logic to me please. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 00:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, logistics. If they are expecting to be 100% in a building they will use SMGs, Shotguns, etc. But if they have an expectation that being in a building is only going to be 10-25% of the mission they will usually carry rifles. The main problem with the mission portrayed in BHD is that the brass expected to have to combat (lightly) armored vehicles, so they issued AP rounds. Now days the AP rounds are for some odd reason pretty much 90% of what the US Army issues. Army Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta, etc. use a type of semi-expanding bullet, as does the Marine Corps.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 01:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There are other reasons as well. It's a fairly accurate rifle round, which, when in situations that will require shooting further than 50-100 meters, is necessary to have. It's a relatively light round, and most people can easily carry a few mags of 5.56 without feeling it too much. As far as stopping power goes, in barrels that don't over-stabilize the round, the 5.56 will fragment (not the AP round, obviously), slowing itself in the body and thus penetration becomes less of an issue. When you consider that most SF types use expanding bullets, this nearly negates the issue. There's a reason that most countries use the 5.56 round or something similar.
As far as the issuance of AP rounds in a war that clearly didn't need them, I've heard two sides of the argument. I've heard that, as Ranger01 said, they were issued because they thought they may run into light vehicles (although they brought along plenty of LAWs to deal with that). But what I heard from an individual who was there was that the men believed it was because Clinton believed that rounds that expanded would A) not make good headlines and B) violate some convention (I believe the Geneva convention).--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Geneva convention forbids hollow point ammo in the military. The Police of the nation is a different subject. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:You're thinking of the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 03:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was the GC or HC and didn't really care to look it up at the moment.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Hague banned all use of ammunition that easily expands or flattens in a human target. I have no exact idea of what round is being used or how it gets around the HC, I only know that when asked about the effectiveness of 5.56 ammunition, a few SF guys made mention that have been issued a new "expanding" round. I have also heard that Marines are now being issued an expanding type round. It may be that since we are not actually fighting an official "military force" that the HC and GC do not apply. Also you must remember that the use of .50 cal against personnel is banned too, how often do you think that is observed?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not saying we follow either conventions to a T in every war, I'm just echoing what I heard from a man who was there. A lot of people who lived through the battle of mogadishu came away with the feeling that Bill Clinton cared more about how headlines would look than he did about the safety of our soldiers. As for HC and GC not applying, I agree that they really don't apply to A) organizations that are not militaries but instead ragtag terrorist groups and B) hail from nations that didn't exist at the time of the convention and never signed a similar document. It's the same argument that was applied for the waterboarding of captured terrorists; apparently, they apply some standards to those who didn't sign, but not others. Personally, I think that terrorist groups and undeveloped countries where they never signed the conventions shouldn't get the protection of them, and we really need to invest into expanding ammunitions for everyone; AP doesn't make sense for unarmored targets.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The question about observing the laws was rhetorical in nature. But I agree wholeheartedly about what you say pertaining to the HC and GC applying to people who did not sign it. Its like bringing pirates and terrorists into the US to give them civilian trials. People say they should get military trials... When according to the GC (that people are so happy to apply to the situation) pirates and terrorists are not able to receive either. We selectively apply laws to make us look good internationally, when in reality it costs money, and even worse lives of US citizens and military forces.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 12:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances full metal jacket .556 is an ideal round. When fighting a traditional battle, against an enemy that follows the rules of war, it is far better to wound the enemy than kill him. Gunner313

We haven't fought a conventional war that lasted any period of time since Korea (and you could even say WWII, since Korea was less than conventional). Also with the way the enemy works now, any intel we can gather from enemy combatants will likely be useless (if it ever was useful) by the time it gets to the guys on the ground. Also as stated by me, and others before, under 50 yards and especially against an enemy that is drugged up a FMJ is likely not going to down an enemy either by wounding him or killing him. Of course shot placement comes into play heavily, but as cases have proven a COM shot is likely not to drop a determined attacker immediately. Head and extremity shots are also very hard to make, with FMJ pretty much the only way to immediately and most important reliably drop an attacker at close range is a pelvic shot. But now days in Afghanistan most fighting is taking place on the far end if not beyond the 5.56's effective range. Also Gunner313 it is 5.56, not .556, .556mm is a really damn small projectile haha. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 14:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

One could say that the First Gulf War was conventional. we were fighting an organized military(Iraq), i still think they were a bunch of crazy towel heads hellbent on destroying the western world.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Why is it better to wound them? -SasquatchJim.

Because then you can detain them get information from them.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. I apologize; I thought he meant that wounding them was more humane, or something. Although, dead people can't keep shooting at you; wounded ones can. -SasquatchJim

It is better to wound them because it requires the enemy to care for their wounded, they have to be treated, they have to be transported, it is demoralizing to the others to hear someone in terrible pain, so for a short time a wounding shot, takes two people out of the fight. Also the more medical supplies that have to be shipped to the front for the wounded, means less of other items such as ammo, food, fuel, misc... Gunner313

Makes sense to me. Thanks. -SJ

Well in my opinion, I still think it's better to kill the enemy rather than just wound them, that way they don't get patched up and come back later to kill you.

agreed. especially in Somalia when if their not dead their gunna come back and shoot you in the back. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

:- Bah, can't believe my one off-hand comment spawned all this. Heh. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 22:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to add other than that this was really informative. This site is one of the best blind discoveries I've made on the internet. --[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]] 01:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Never Forget==
Sorry to post as anon, but I dont have an account but frequent the site. Just wanted to point out that today is the 17th anniversary of the US intervention in Somalia.

:- Actually the anniversary is for the mission and subsequent battle portrayed in the film. The 'intervention' began as Operation Provide Relief, which started in December 1992. Still, good to point it out. EDIT - I actually just realized that not only is it the anniversary, but the actual day is correct (That is, Oct. 3 was a Sunday, same day as the Oct. 3 in the battle). Again, pretty cool I guess. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The entire day yesterday i thought about it. i decided to watch the movie being Sunday Oct-3. i also found it fit to say a pray for the brave soldiers who lost their lives fighting to help the ungratefull bastards. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Interesting Uniform Note==

Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the 1990's and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new DCU's with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.

[[Image:BHDMinimi-4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|[[Tom Hardy]] wielding an FN Minimi as Spc. Twombly, giving us a good look at his 3-color DCU uniform and 6-color helmet cover]]

[[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mo'alim (Razaaq Adoti) gun ==

What gun have Mo'alim in his shoulder? He don't remove it from the shoulder at any time, but there are two scenes where you can see:

1 When prevents the killing of Duran:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/

2 When the cannon is firing in the area of the first downed helicopter:
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/

are you referring to the AK-74u? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he is referring to the pistol in his shoulder holster under his left arm. Can't make it out though, will have to have a look on my Bluray version when I get a minute, but don't think it can be seen well enough to make it out. --[[User:Commando552|Commando552]] 10:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

i wasn't aware he had a shoulder holster? can you upload a photo?[[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it is a revolver or a pistol:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/
i couldnt see anything on the 2nd picture but the first was definetly a revolver. my guess, and im not expert with revolvers would be a .38 or 357 perhaps a S&W? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== Doc Schmid ==
In the movie PFC Kurt "Doc" Schmid is shown as a Ranger medic but in reality he was Delta Force. It's curious why they chose to depict him as a Ranger and not a Delta operator in the movie.

Maybe they forgot [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

:This is somewhat unrelated, but I found it really funny that Schmid is played by the same actor who later played [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/ Adam]. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==tapeing==
i was just watching this , and i noticed that a majority of the rangers taped the ends of the butt stocks on their rifles . Why is that?-[[User:Simmons 8492|Simmons 8492]]
:I believe that tape was used (not quite sure how) to attach the sling to the butt of the rifle. Tape is also used at the front of the rifle, to attach a loop of para cord around the front sight to the sling. The reason this was done was so that the sling would be attached on the top/side of the weapon, rather than the bottom (where the only fitted sling loops are) to make it more usable in combat. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

i noticed nearly all the mag's have brown tape on them, any reasons for this, or is it just purely cosmetic? [[User:Scarecrow|scarecrow]] 11:32, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

STANAG Magazines are smooth and can be hard to grip on to to reload, especially in a high stress situation like combat. The tape helps you to grip the magazine for a speedy reload, MAGPUL makes sleeves that slide over them now. [[User:Doc345|Doc345]] 3:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

== Nelson's M60 ==

Is is correct to have Nelson carrying the Vietnam Era M60 over the M60E3 or E4? I'm not sure when the E3 or E4 came out.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 03:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:The M60 used in the film is an original spec M60, the same as were actually used by the Rangers in Somalia (As identified by the hand guard and bi-pod attaching at the end of the barrel). Not sure exactly when the E3 was made (started being issues in 1986), but I know there was one in the 1985 film [[Commando]]. Regardless, I don't think it was that widely used, as the lighter weight barrel and other parts made the gun more prone to overheating and malfunction. The rangers actually used a mix of M60s and FN MAGs as shown below:
:[[Image:101120ritchie20pursley8yp.jpg|thumb|500px|none]]
:Also, there has been talk on this page about what the actual weapons used by Delta where, and I cannot speak to this operation in particular, but in most of the photos I have seen of Delta force in Somalia, there are actually armed with M16A2s, normally with a telescopic sight mounted onto the carry handle (example below). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/9607/21820burns20weaver6az.jpg
::Delta operators in Somalia used Colt Model 723 carbines with M4 style barrel, at least watching the few pictures of that time. --[[User:Pz.Abt.100|X-Ray Bravo 6]] 13:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:::Did the Rangers at the time use a black ballistic vest in addition to the woodland RBAs? While searching for M60 photos saw several photos of people in black vests carrying M16A2s with an optic on the handle, also sometimes carrying shotguns and LAWs. Are these likely Rangers rather than Delta then? Also, there are pictures of rangers using colt carbines with the step down M4 type barrels, so I think there was a much wider variety of weapons used than the film shows. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
::::The Rangers only wore Woodland camo RBA (Ranger Body Armor) vests and desert-camo PASGT helmets during the operation (see the "Interesting Uniform Note" section above for info about the desert camo patterns used in the film). Black vests were Delta-issue only. Sort of like present-day spec. ops units using Dragon Skin vests while the main Army uses Interceptor/IOTV vests (though it's not as easy to tell the difference between the modern-day examples by looking at them. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

In the book there was specific mention of a couple of the Rangers being stuck with the Delta "Turtle" Armor because they didn't have enough of the Ranger vests for a while.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 09:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Thanks, that explains photos like the following one then (also, note the Colt carbines with M4 type barrels the Rangers are carrying.)
:[[Image:RangersM4.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

:Also, can anyone shed some light as to what is going on with this SAW:
:[[Image:Saw.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
:First off, isn't this an E2, rather than the E1 as the main article says was used by the Rangers? Also, why does it look like the receiver is made of different metal, and is the sight mount a standard fitting, or something cobbled together? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Another thing the book mentions is that Delta's Armorer played gunsmith for some of the Ranger guys (at least 1 customized SAW is mentioned).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes that is the part I was referring to, although I remember there being more than just a grip added, but its been a while. Also Rangers aren't basic infantry, they too are a part of USASOC. and in a combat zone leeway with weapons (also uniforms, gear, etc) is pretty much at the command's discretion. I believe that they would allow Rangers a bit of leeway with modifying their weapons in certain ways to enhance their effectiveness in a given environment. Spc. Waddell's SAW grip would have been noticed by his command at some point, and either him or the Delta armorer would have had to get permission to modify it, being that it is US Gov property (not to mention the other customized weapons we see in Ranger's hands in photos).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 04:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Just noticing. Why do some people call it an "M4" type barrel? I mean it's a rifle in service before the M4 came out, so shouldn't it NOT be called an M4 barrel [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:48, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

You got me on that one... Probably because most people know the "M203 Step" Barrel as an M4 feature, so it gets genericised as an "M4 Profile Barrel".-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean didn't they have the step down barrel before the M4 came about? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 07:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe so, but it would have only been within a couple years of the M4s debut (the Colt 727 comes to mind). Another reason would be marketing, people will pay more for a milspec carbine that has the "M203 step barrel" so companies market the rifles as having "M4 profile barrels".-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Black Hawk Down

2011-02-12T23:41:36Z

Ranger01: /* Nelson's M60 */

== Hoot's "M4" ==
I think the article should be amended to only mention the weapon seen on Hoot's person when he's confronted by Capt. Steele during chow time. The weapon he's holding in the screengrab of him being picked up by Wolcott and the Delta guys is the same M727 he uses in the rest of the film. --[[Special:Contributions/131.216.48.250|131.216.48.250]] 16:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the carbine Sanderson handed him had the knobs signifying a detachable carry handle. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::Pretty damn sure. The front corner of that carry handle in the screencaps is too thin to be from an M4's carry handle. Definitely the mark of an A2 upper's carry handle as seen on M727s--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

== This probably isn't very important, but... ==
I went through and corrected the abbreviated ranks. Most of them were in Marine Corps form as opposed to Army form (ex., SSgt vs SSG). Like I said, probably not worth mentioning, but it's a little detail that was bugging me. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

== Weapon used by delta force ==

M4 was issued in 1994 before the battle which took place in 1993 ...the weapon seen in the movie and used by Delta operators was CAR-15

: If you'll look at the upper reciever and carry handle/rear-sight assembly, you'll see they match the [[M16 rifle series#M16A2 Rifle|M16A2]]-style of the early-model M4 carbine as shown in the picture above the screenshots. The CAR-15 (also known as the [[M16 rifle series#Colt Commando Carbine|Colt Commando]]) used the recievers and carry handle/rear sight assembly of the [[M16 rifle series#M16A1 Rifle|M16A1]]. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, the stock is wrong for the CAR15...its an M4
:How is the stock "wrong"? And no M4 has the flash suppressor of the Car-15 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Isn't it more likely that Randy Shughart was actually carrying a Springfield M21 rather than the M14?
:No, he was carrying a M14 during the actual battle and it is in his Medal of Honor citation. So its definitely a M14.
::Do you happen to have a link to his MoH citation? The book accounted that Shughart used an M21. --''[[User:Blemo|Blemo]] 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
:::To Blemo - I've got the book in my lap. Page 208, and I quote, "They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip." Right there in black and white. --[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
:Your point about the issue date of the M4 flies in the face of the logic that "IT'S A MOVIE".-protoAuthor 01:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
:Your point about "It's a movie" is in the face of the logic that we shouldn't use our brains and common sense. It's like watching a 1920s movie and seeing someone riding into a scene with a 1970 Mustang. Would you use the "It's a movie" logic there? What about a WWII movie and you see an F-18 shooting sidewinders at a Japanese Zero? The point of this site is so that we do point of the little details. It's like in IMDB where it points out which movie a certain actor has been in and what his role is. The same here on this side except you replace "Actor" with "pick a gun". Accuracy is the whole point. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]
:My point was, movies don't get things 100% correct.-protoAuthor 03:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

:Sometimes. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mistake? ==
There's a scene in the movie (1:37:53) where Yurek, Nelson and Twombly are about to rejoin the other Rangers at the Black Hawk crash site. While Yurek is on the radio to Eversmann (Josh Hartnett's character) he grabs a mag out of a Type 47 that a dead Somali soldier is still holding. Since the Rangers are all carrying 5.56 NATO M4A2s and FN Minimis, what would be the point of grabbing a 7.62mm mag? Seems like an odd oversight considering the camera kinda focuses on him taking the mag, and they've worked quite hard to maintain accuracy and detail in the film. Any ideas? Am I missing something? [[User:DamageW|DamageW]] 06:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:What the hell is a Type 47?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 15:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::i dont know, but they did that so the weapon was useless for someone to pick up and use. He probaly just ditched it later. -[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]
:::He's talking about an AK-47, but Type 47 definately isn't the right term. I always assumed he took it as a memento or something, because anyone can reload a weapon even if the magazine is removed. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::Actually, he grabs the mag because he's carrying an M60, and he probably figured he may be able to use the ammo later. Also, many SF types are known to, in extreme need, use the local weapons, and he may also have been preparing for that eventuality. [[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Taking AK rounds for an M60? the M60 fires 7.62x51 rounds, while the AK fires 7.62x39, plus you'd need to have the rounds already on a belt to be fired by an M60. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::I think that what Yurek was trying to do was deny the enemy ammunition should they pick up the AK. The Bowden's book accounted that many Somalis that were killed would have others reuse the same weapon. They briefly showed that when Busch was making his last stand by the downed chopper. Also, he may have kept it as a souvenir. It's not everyday you'll find a loaded AK magazine that had the potential to kill you. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Actually, I was suggesting that he was picking up the mag out of fear that at some point, he would need to resort to using an Ak, or that he would have the ammo if someone else had already been forced to pick up a local weapon. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
----
Also, What the motherfuck is an M4A2?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:The motherfuck that is an M4A2 is basically an M4 produced by another company such as Bushmaster Firearms. It's just another "M4gery". Also, Google is everyone's friend and it wouldn't hurt to ask it. ;) --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::I'd like to think he kept it as a souvenir, although the actual reason was whenever a member of militia was killed they were extremely dedicated to retrieving the body and the firearm, so removing the magazine would have made it useless, although picking up the the weapon and smashing it to pieces would probably have worked better[[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 14:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Smashing the weapon would have been noisy and they were trying to be quiet at that point IIRC.
::::fair point but i was thinking more like removing the driver spring, and its probably just that it would have made one less magazine for the somalians to use
I think the reason is that the enemy has 30 rounds less against the rangers. It's like in 'Saving Privat Ryan': the rescue team left Steamboat Willy alive; so he could kill Captain Miller. A wise decision of Yurek, I think

I noticed another mistake. During the scene where Gordon and Shughart are holding off the Somalis at the crash sight there's a quick moment when Shughart is seen using an M16A2 rifle instead of his M14 rifle. And in the very next scene and all following he's back to using the M14. [[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]

::::: I believe it was because he was firing his M14 until it ran out of ammo, and then using a helo crew member's M16 before retreating to reload both rifles.:::

:::- Yes, that's the case. Gordon is also seen dropping his CAR-15 when it's empty and using his 1911. Later, when Shughart is killed, he fires the M14 'til it's empty, then switching to his 1911, and when that is empty, using an MP5 from the chopper. Hell, they're being overwhelmed, and it is quicker to pick up and and shoot another weapon that is ready than reload the present one. They were pretty much using whatever they could trying their damndest to fend an army off, I would think that was obvious. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mike Durant's Book ==
In Mike Durant's book "The Night Stalkers" he quoted a few weapons he was using in the real life in the "Mog". I remember him talking about his MP5 not to metion he called it a "german piece of crap" for jamming. He also said Randy's Commando was on burst-fire 3 shots 1 kill. And the mini guns the rescue team could have been using can not run on the Black Hawk's batteries only on pure engine generating turbine power.
:To be fair, Mike Durant also seems to know very little about firearms. Also note that his memory may be jarred by the fact that, you know, he had just suffered a fucking HELICOPTER CRASH. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
::Actually, helicopter pilots have to be trained with certain firearms in order to survive in the event of a crash. Durant at least knew how to clear the jam on the 9mm submachine gun. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::160th SOAR aircrews, being a part of ASOC are trained not only in their specific role in the aircraft, but also on how to continue with the mission at hand along with their "customers." Hence, they're well-familiarized with fighting with the weapons carried on board with them (in the case of what was aboard Super-64, MP5s for the pilots, M16s for the crewchiefs and M9s carried by all of them).
:::What baffles me is how his MP5 kept jamming (in the book atleast). I know they were in the desert, but that MP5 had been stashed inside a helicopter, so it wouldn't be all dusty and full of sand. Maybe it is a German piece of crap then [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it was dusty inside of the chopper. Flying around in a helicopter with the rotor wash sending dust, smoke, and sand into and around the cabin won't help the MP5 from jamming, either. Pilots don't normally clean their emergency back-up weapons as they're supposed to. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Helicopter crews don't regularly use their weapons and so may not be as maintenance-minded as a Ranger or Delta. That could be one reason it kept jamming. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I did read Mike Durant's book and would like to point out he referred to Randy's weapon as a High-Tech rifle. as we all no, it was a vietnam era M14. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 21:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

:I just stared reading Durant's "In the Company of Heroes" before he called it a "German piece of crap", he said the MP5 had shot fine at the range but he probably had neglected to clean it. It was after Shughart gave him Gordon's CAR-15 which didn't jam and was far more effective despite only having half a mag left he thought of the MP5 as a piece of shit. He also had an M9 that he never drew, which he said probably saved his life since he wasn't seen as a threat. While Shughart's M14 isn't really a "High-Tech rifle" it was a lot better than a bolt-gun in the situation he was in. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 18:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

== The Hand ==
Does anyone know why that Ranger took the dead Delta Force member's hand?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:Probably to send it home with the rest of the body-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 16:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)
::I figured that too. But it's kind of creepy going around carrying an dead man's severed hand in your pocket. What about the smell? However, if i died in combat, i would like if my body went home and i had an funeral.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:::In the book, Othic took the hand that he had found and put it in his pocket to return it to the Delta operator that was blown in half. He had placed it with his body after he died, but strangely the movie did not show that, and made it seem like Othic kept the hand. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::::It wasn't the Delta Operator's hand. The shots of MSGTTim "Griz" Martin after being hit by the RPG show his hand still intact. More likely it belonged to one of the other soldiers aboard the truck that got hit. MSGT Martin was shipped off to Germany IIRC where he succumbed to his wounds shortly after.
:I bet it started to smell after a while-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==Flashlight Attachment Help==
[[Image:BHD Commando Flashlight.jpg|thumb|none|600px|What is this type of flashlight attachment called?]]
''What is the technical term for the flashlight to be attached to the '''barrel''' of the AR-15 series? It seems to be used only when there are handguards in place of the RIS railing. Sergeants Hoot, Busch, Sanderson, Gordon, and a couple other Deltas used the same attachment.'' --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 01:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:Before R.I.S. was introduced, I used to see a whole bunch of different flashlight attachments just like that one in the Blue Press. Some of them were even advertised as able to work on multiple types of weapons in the same caliber (i.e. AR-15s and Mini-14s). There were many different brands, so we can't be 100% sure what this movie's armorers used. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

::Oh, thanks, but I didn't mean what brands the movie used. I meant, what the generic term for these types of attachments that connect the flashlight to the barrel are called. I'm thinking about purchasing one for an AR-15 platform without the RIS. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 03:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::It's a barrel mount for a flashlight, that specific one was made by Surefire.

:::: Like the above said, It's a barrel mounted flashlight, made by Surefire. I actually managed to buy one of them that had been used in the Operation Gothic Serpent theater. These are still a good alternative to adding the weight of a rail to your firearm. I believe the flashlight is a model 600 or something similar.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==M4 in 1994?==
Question about the M4 not being period correct. If the events took place in September 1993 and the M4 went into service sometime in 1994, isn't possible that members of an elite group like Delta Force could have gotten their hands on a couple?

:I'd say it's plausible that Delta could have been field-testing a few XM4s that day. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

::In today's case, some special units are using the HK416 in the field. It likely that this was also the case with the M4 in 1993. That, or the armorers to the film got lazy and decided to throw in a few M4's for the M4 fans. Unlikely, but movies will do this. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:Well it isn't completely out there that at the time US special forces can get their hands on some experimental weapons and field test them. But I think for this movie, they just ran out of Car-15s to give to the Delta actors.[[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)he

The m4 was used in service since 1997 it is not possible for an m4 to be used.the delta operators may have used a xm117e2.

:Just because it didn't go into service until 94 or 97 doesn't mean D-boys didn't have a hold of them. There could well have been a prototype (or many test models) sent out with D-boys to see if the rifle performed to what was expected.
More than likely just an error. The simplest explanation is usually correct (Occam's Razor) BA
More likely than not the M4 in the film is simply an anachronism due to a shortage of Colt Commandos. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 02:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

'''Don't forget about the 10th Mountain and the U.N Soldiers. Whoever created this page missed them completly and they had alot of firearms. Whats omore is i can't for some reason edit the page. the autheor needs to fix this right away'''

::I have explained elsewhere that the Colt Model 727 carbine, which LOOKS just like an early M4 (but has a semi/full-auto trigger group, rather than semi/burst as on the Model 777, AKA the earliest M4) was introduced in the late-1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 05:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

:::The 727 has a fixed carry handle, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

::::So did the Model 777, which is the first gun that was ever adopted by the U.S. military as the "M4". The 727 and 777 are the same gun aside from their trigger groups. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::I'm fairly certain this convo is referring to the later M4 with detachable carry handle. That's why I mentioned the 727 having an A2 upper. ;) [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...

== Shughart and the M14/M16 switch ==
Does anyone know if Shughart briefly using an M16A2 while defending Durant's crash site is intentional or a mistake? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

:intentional, in the book moments beforehand hed asked durant where the spare weapons were kept aboard the black hawk, and for some reason this scene was omitted from the film. Shughart had ran dry with his 7.62 M14 and so couldnt have used the 5.56 from the M16 mags. :)

::Yeah, Shughart asked if there were any spare rifles or radios ''after'' Gordon got shot. This caused Durant to realize that Gordon may have been hit and that they were stranded on their own. However, the book didn't mention Shughart ''actually'' using the M16. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, good point, but i dont get why brad hallings didnt join them? he could have done so much more on the ground than on the black hawk, especially since he had his leg blown off up there aswell. oh and btw, im a newcomer, how do i tag comments with my name at the end?
:By putting four ~ at the end of every message.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thanks :) [[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 00:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe the reason why Halling didn’t insert with the Shughart and Gordon was because by the time the team was given the go-ahead to insert, Halling had taken control of the minigun due to a member of the helicopter crew being injured.--[[User:Mauser|Mauser]] 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

i dont know if he was actually using it, but in the movie version i think were supposed to think he took from a crew chief (since they carried an m16a2

the guy must have to taken the m16 from one of the blackhawk passengers and the blackhawks do carry spare weapons on board. (actual assassin)

Im sure most people so dedicated to this site probably noticed this but ill say it anyway. (**SPOILER**) ok right as MSsgt. Gordon is shot in the head and Shughart checks him it flashes over to Durant, and sure enough if you look you'll notice Gordon's CAR-15 on his lap. moments later Shughart runs over to Durant hands him the CAR-15 and says "Gordy's gone man, i'll be outside...Goodluck." just pointing it out. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

== Change made to 1911 article/picture ==

Not sure where IMDB gets its info from, but Kim Coates plays Master Sergeant Tim 'Griz' Martin, the unfortunate Delta operator who was blown in half by the RPG when the convoy is attempting to extract. He is not the Delta operator seen using the 1911 at the firing range and the picture and article have been edited for correction.

--[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

All the Delta Force members' names were changed for the film except for Busch, Shughart and Gordon. "Wex" is the name credited to Kim Coates in the end credits. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Anybody else notice that when Wex is firing his 1911, he's walking down the range towards the targets while people behind him are still firing? seems kind of unsafe.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 19:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

-- In a deleted scene, it is shown that Eversman calls cease fire on the range in response to him moving into the line of fire, and just responding to such percieved recklessness by simply muttering "Fuckin' Delta..."--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 22:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

on topic of 1911s does anyone know what kind of 1911s they really used? for example i find it hard to believe they would be using normal 1911s when the MK.IVs were out

-- They were regular M1911A1s as it is cheaper for the armorers to use GI style pistols instead of procuring brand new weapons or paying a pistolsmith for costly modifications on movie props that could later be used in other films. In reality, Delta operators would take their issued 1911s (which were often relics found in the supply system) and have them done by some of the best pistolsmiths they could find to do the work (or do the work in-house when at all possible). Some of that talent rubbed off on the operators themselves; Larry Vickers, a former Delta Operator himself, is one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the business and is one of the go-to guys for Delta's custom 1911s.

== Dillon/GE Miniguns ==

The Miniguns during the actual event would have been GE M134s. The Miniguns in the movie were Dillon Aero Miniguns, but not quite M134Ds. They had some of the DA upgrades on them though. That's from the commentary and some interviews online with Dillon Aero. I remember it being mentioned in one of the special features that the Dillon guns in the movie could have been fired off the Black Hawk's batteries, but the older GE ones in the real incident would have been unuseable at the crash site.

== 870 Remington Shotgun. ==

Not sure if this is worth noting, but in real life, the operator on who SGT. Sanderson was based, Paul Howe, had his shotgun rigged under his CAR-15 in a "Masterkey" configuration. Also, it can be seen being used in the directors cut to breach a door.

== Rescue Heli Star 41 ==

The AH-6, that inbounds to Wolcott's crash site (Star 41), has miniguns and rocket pods. The helicopter that is finally landing at the chrashed Black Hawk hasn't any weapons onboard, so probably a MH-6.
:Continuity error most likely. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

== Flashlights ==
I watched the movie, and I was wondering, if Delta force had flashlights on their M733 and M727's, why didnt they use them? I could see that they would want to keep stealth in night, but if they're firing at the enemy, the muzzle flash would show their position anyway.

:Actors probably forgot or were never told [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Flashlights are not going to give you enough illumination to shoot at targets across buildings. They're better for room clearing. Besides you wouldn't use them if you have NOD's. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)v
:Not to mention a flashlight beam in that environment would scream, "here I am, shoot me!" [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

does anyone no how they would have mounted the tac-lights back then? like now-a-days we have RIS/Picatanny rails. then they would mod it to the barrel. how would they do that if they have a shotgun under the barrel? Larry Vickers mentioned that he hose clamped his to the bottom of the barrel. but he didnt have a masterkey. any suggestions? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 15:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hose clamped it to the side or top of the barrel? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Larry had his hose-clamped to the bottom. he used his in Panama (acid Gambit) i was surprised at how resoursefull they were. he also took some cardboard and put them inbetween Mags for a quick reload. and the aimpoint on his gun looked ancient. [[Special:Contributions/71.194.219.9|71.194.219.9]] 22:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

== Possible Error? ==
Anyone notice that the picture of Sanderson firing his M727 during the Mogadishu Mile? It looks like the chamber is clear and the bolt is open. That means the weapon is empty, but in the movie you still hear two more shots before he switches to his sidearm. Is it just the angle, or is it just an error in continuity?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a continuity error, a continuity error would be when one seen a guy has a 1911 and the next he suddenly has a Beretta M9. I can't say for I don't remember this. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 16:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

== Actor in the Specials ==

Do we see this actor in Delta costume in the movie often? Because all the behind the scenes shot is this guy and I don't recognize him. Is he an extra that is like way in the back of the other guys? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

What guy?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This guy
[[Image:BHD2Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor aims Durant's MP5 in movie armory. Note the other weapons behind him.]]
[[Image:BHD1Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor in Delta clothes shows M16A2 in the movie armory.]]
[[Image:DHD3Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta actor shows vehicle-mounted M60s.]]

That's Jeremy Piven, nowadays best known for playing Ari Gold on HBO's Entourage. Wikipedia says he played CFO Clifton Wolcott.

:I do not think it Piven. In the film he plays a pilot role and his hair is black.
http://files.haiguinet.com/flashupload/UploadedFiles/1252005569_159Jeremy_Piven.jpg
http://emsworth.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/jeremy-piven-in-black-hawk-down-2.jpg
When I put the photos on the page, before to name him "delta actor", I looked for the name of this guy in the entire cast. Unsuccessfully. I think it is a stunt.--[[User:Charly Driver|Charly Driver]] 17:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

== Seriously ==
[[Image:BHD 015.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta Force SFC Sanderson ([[William Fichtner]]) fires his M1911A1 during the "Mogadishu Mile". It seems unlikely a well trained operator would wear his flight gloves like shown.]]
Seriously? A well trained operator wouldnt wear his gloves like that? This mall-ninja crap needs to stop. Theres no special way to wear flight gloves, you put the goddamn things on and wear 'em. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
:Actually, special forces operators of that era often wore flight gloves, just like that. Fun fact. Flight gloves are made for use by individuals who fly planes; they need a glove that will keep their hands a bit warmer than they normally will be, but will still allow them to feel the tactile sensation of the various knobs and switches and provide the nimbleness that the human hand gives us. The solution? Flight gloves. They are the precursors to the gloves we see in use by military units now; the Oakley tacticool gloves (fun fact: Oakley started out making motorcycle gloves) or the Blackhawk gloves and what have you. I'm really loving these mall-ninjas popping up thinking they know about shooting or special forces work. I can think of a few damn good reasons off the top of my hand to never, ever take gloves off in a combat situation, personally, and a well-fitted pair of gloves will be just like a second skin.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 01:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I believe the comment means it isn't likely he'd wear them while shooting - Full-finger gloves can be obstructive/restrictive when it comes to finger movement, which isn't exactly a good thing when you need to make accurate shots. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 01:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

::Flight gloves, as I just fucking explained, are not restrictive or obstructive in the slightest.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

:::- ''Uh, I had replied below I didn't know about these gloves specifically, which you seem to have failed to notice. Just as you also seem to have failed to notice that all these comments you posted this slightly irritable and unnecessary response in-between were all posted '''days ago'''. It might help if you thoroughly read the comments and check the dates next time.'' [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 15:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Honestly how would anyone here really know....are any of you "operators"?? -and if you say yes I'm going to say that your lying.....I'm going to delete that quip about his gloves in the caption, it's not hard to shoot with gloves on, especially flyers gloves. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
:Thank you, it just bugs the living shit outta me when armchair commandos think they know operator/tactical/omfgdelta stuff. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
::- Well, I'm indeed no 'operator', but I don't have to be one to know that it is hard to shoot with some gloves, especially if you're making distance shots. But I'm not familiar with flight gloves specifically, so I guess they're no trouble, I don't know. In any case, it just seemed to me the context of Winn's comment was that he was saying that it was stating merely that the gloves need to be worn some special way (and Winns right - they're gloves, what special way is there), but that's the problem with text sometimes. Anyway, not trying to make a valid claim, just an opinion. I can't speak for whoever made original remark, though. Either way, I never gave that comment much thought myself. I'm personally more peeved about quips on peoples (actors) stances myself. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Flight gloves are a very thin layer of Nomex with a Clarino palm and finger overlaid. These are very light, wick sweat, and give you tactile feeling and the ability to perform tasks as though you were bare handed. They are maybe a few mm thick on the palms, and do not affect in any way your shooting ability or accuracy, even whilst firing an M249, which is notorious for running away due to gloves getting stuck and holding the trigger back.

==Discussion about the bullets, or something==
- Something I always found a bit funny about that particular scene - Sanderson misses the two targets with his 727 carbine (firing several shots), yet hits them both with one .45 shot each (or actually, maybe one was hit twice, and the other once). Heh. But of course, I'd imagine some people can actually be better with a handgun than a rifle in some instances. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

I haven't seen the movie in a few months, but if I remember correctly he had actually hit the targets with his rifle, but the rounds went completely through and didn't kill the targets. So he used his .45 to actually kill them. There is a part in the book where it is mentioned that they had been issued "green tip" rounds (armor piercing/ anti personnel 5.56 ammo with a steel penetrator tip), and another part that talked about the rounds lack of effectiveness against the drugged up Somalis. One guy unloaded a belt from his SAW into a couple Somalis and they kept coming at them b/c the rounds just went right through and didn't do any major (fight stopping) damage. Another reason why they talk about how Randy Shughart was a smart SOB for using a 7.62 M14 and normal ammo. As for the gloves... Flight gloves have been used for years by ground personnel because they are thin enough to still be able to feel things with your hands, but they are still something to protect against scrapes, burns, dirt, etc.. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No argument here Ranger. but i would also like to point out in the book Mark also mentions that they(the rangers) fired SAW and believe it or not M-60 ammunition, that would happen to be the same M-60 that carries the heavy hitting 7.62mm however that guy was probably high as a kite anyways so idont think it would have made much of a difference. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

:- That's all fascinating, except in the movie, Sanderson (Fichtner) just ''missed them''. I was remarking on how the movie showed him ''missing'' two almost perfectly still targets with the 727 carbine and hitting them with the .45. That's all. Interesting tidbit about the ammo though. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

Well, the point about RS and his M14 was what the book said. It was not so much the size of the bullet, but whether or not it was AP ammo (super hard bullet at very high velocity). An AP round from a 5.56 to the heart will create a very small hole, and if the person who is shot is high on drugs then they are probably not even going to notice it until they finally keel over (which will probably take a while). At the same time a FMJ from a .45 while it still probably wont blow the heart to kingdom come, will make a large enough hole that it will cause bleed out to happen faster (hopefully fast enough). Then again at close range any 5.56 and even 7.62 ammo isnt going to be as effective as a .45 round b/c of the rifle round's high velocities compared to the .45s low velocity. When faced with an unarmored threat below about 50 yards, a pistol round (be it .45, 9mm, .40, etc) is going to be much more effective (unless it is something like the 5.7 round, which has no immediate stopping power unless a CNS or head shot is attained). Long post short: will a 5.56 or 7.62 to the heart kill someone at close range? Most likely yes. Will it do it quick enough to stop an attacker from killing/ wounding you or your allies? Maybe. If he missed them, then it was probably just to add suspense or a "weapon switch to show he is an elite operator" shot to the scene.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 00:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

um this is extremely off topic like usual but id just like for someone to explain the purpose of using a 5.56 by a Counter-Terrorist Unit. tell me if im missing something but when their clearing rooms A.) the round wont immediatly kill a combatant when you wont him to die. and 2. say its an assault on multiple rooms at once and boom you miss your target (or it just passes through him) and boom goes through the wall like the round is meant to and bam! clips a friendly or even worse a hostage. explain the logic to me please. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 00:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, logistics. If they are expecting to be 100% in a building they will use SMGs, Shotguns, etc. But if they have an expectation that being in a building is only going to be 10-25% of the mission they will usually carry rifles. The main problem with the mission portrayed in BHD is that the brass expected to have to combat (lightly) armored vehicles, so they issued AP rounds. Now days the AP rounds are for some odd reason pretty much 90% of what the US Army issues. Army Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta, etc. use a type of semi-expanding bullet, as does the Marine Corps.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 01:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There are other reasons as well. It's a fairly accurate rifle round, which, when in situations that will require shooting further than 50-100 meters, is necessary to have. It's a relatively light round, and most people can easily carry a few mags of 5.56 without feeling it too much. As far as stopping power goes, in barrels that don't over-stabilize the round, the 5.56 will fragment (not the AP round, obviously), slowing itself in the body and thus penetration becomes less of an issue. When you consider that most SF types use expanding bullets, this nearly negates the issue. There's a reason that most countries use the 5.56 round or something similar.
As far as the issuance of AP rounds in a war that clearly didn't need them, I've heard two sides of the argument. I've heard that, as Ranger01 said, they were issued because they thought they may run into light vehicles (although they brought along plenty of LAWs to deal with that). But what I heard from an individual who was there was that the men believed it was because Clinton believed that rounds that expanded would A) not make good headlines and B) violate some convention (I believe the Geneva convention).--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Geneva convention forbids hollow point ammo in the military. The Police of the nation is a different subject. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:You're thinking of the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 03:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was the GC or HC and didn't really care to look it up at the moment.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Hague banned all use of ammunition that easily expands or flattens in a human target. I have no exact idea of what round is being used or how it gets around the HC, I only know that when asked about the effectiveness of 5.56 ammunition, a few SF guys made mention that have been issued a new "expanding" round. I have also heard that Marines are now being issued an expanding type round. It may be that since we are not actually fighting an official "military force" that the HC and GC do not apply. Also you must remember that the use of .50 cal against personnel is banned too, how often do you think that is observed?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not saying we follow either conventions to a T in every war, I'm just echoing what I heard from a man who was there. A lot of people who lived through the battle of mogadishu came away with the feeling that Bill Clinton cared more about how headlines would look than he did about the safety of our soldiers. As for HC and GC not applying, I agree that they really don't apply to A) organizations that are not militaries but instead ragtag terrorist groups and B) hail from nations that didn't exist at the time of the convention and never signed a similar document. It's the same argument that was applied for the waterboarding of captured terrorists; apparently, they apply some standards to those who didn't sign, but not others. Personally, I think that terrorist groups and undeveloped countries where they never signed the conventions shouldn't get the protection of them, and we really need to invest into expanding ammunitions for everyone; AP doesn't make sense for unarmored targets.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The question about observing the laws was rhetorical in nature. But I agree wholeheartedly about what you say pertaining to the HC and GC applying to people who did not sign it. Its like bringing pirates and terrorists into the US to give them civilian trials. People say they should get military trials... When according to the GC (that people are so happy to apply to the situation) pirates and terrorists are not able to receive either. We selectively apply laws to make us look good internationally, when in reality it costs money, and even worse lives of US citizens and military forces.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 12:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances full metal jacket .556 is an ideal round. When fighting a traditional battle, against an enemy that follows the rules of war, it is far better to wound the enemy than kill him. Gunner313

We haven't fought a conventional war that lasted any period of time since Korea (and you could even say WWII, since Korea was less than conventional). Also with the way the enemy works now, any intel we can gather from enemy combatants will likely be useless (if it ever was useful) by the time it gets to the guys on the ground. Also as stated by me, and others before, under 50 yards and especially against an enemy that is drugged up a FMJ is likely not going to down an enemy either by wounding him or killing him. Of course shot placement comes into play heavily, but as cases have proven a COM shot is likely not to drop a determined attacker immediately. Head and extremity shots are also very hard to make, with FMJ pretty much the only way to immediately and most important reliably drop an attacker at close range is a pelvic shot. But now days in Afghanistan most fighting is taking place on the far end if not beyond the 5.56's effective range. Also Gunner313 it is 5.56, not .556, .556mm is a really damn small projectile haha. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 14:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

One could say that the First Gulf War was conventional. we were fighting an organized military(Iraq), i still think they were a bunch of crazy towel heads hellbent on destroying the western world.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Why is it better to wound them? -SasquatchJim.

Because then you can detain them get information from them.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. I apologize; I thought he meant that wounding them was more humane, or something. Although, dead people can't keep shooting at you; wounded ones can. -SasquatchJim

It is better to wound them because it requires the enemy to care for their wounded, they have to be treated, they have to be transported, it is demoralizing to the others to hear someone in terrible pain, so for a short time a wounding shot, takes two people out of the fight. Also the more medical supplies that have to be shipped to the front for the wounded, means less of other items such as ammo, food, fuel, misc... Gunner313

Makes sense to me. Thanks. -SJ

Well in my opinion, I still think it's better to kill the enemy rather than just wound them, that way they don't get patched up and come back later to kill you.

agreed. especially in Somalia when if their not dead their gunna come back and shoot you in the back. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

:- Bah, can't believe my one off-hand comment spawned all this. Heh. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 22:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to add other than that this was really informative. This site is one of the best blind discoveries I've made on the internet. --[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]] 01:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Never Forget==
Sorry to post as anon, but I dont have an account but frequent the site. Just wanted to point out that today is the 17th anniversary of the US intervention in Somalia.

:- Actually the anniversary is for the mission and subsequent battle portrayed in the film. The 'intervention' began as Operation Provide Relief, which started in December 1992. Still, good to point it out. EDIT - I actually just realized that not only is it the anniversary, but the actual day is correct (That is, Oct. 3 was a Sunday, same day as the Oct. 3 in the battle). Again, pretty cool I guess. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The entire day yesterday i thought about it. i decided to watch the movie being Sunday Oct-3. i also found it fit to say a pray for the brave soldiers who lost their lives fighting to help the ungratefull bastards. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Interesting Uniform Note==

Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the 1990's and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new DCU's with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.

[[Image:BHDMinimi-4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|[[Tom Hardy]] wielding an FN Minimi as Spc. Twombly, giving us a good look at his 3-color DCU uniform and 6-color helmet cover]]

[[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mo'alim (Razaaq Adoti) gun ==

What gun have Mo'alim in his shoulder? He don't remove it from the shoulder at any time, but there are two scenes where you can see:

1 When prevents the killing of Duran:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/

2 When the cannon is firing in the area of the first downed helicopter:
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/

are you referring to the AK-74u? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he is referring to the pistol in his shoulder holster under his left arm. Can't make it out though, will have to have a look on my Bluray version when I get a minute, but don't think it can be seen well enough to make it out. --[[User:Commando552|Commando552]] 10:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

i wasn't aware he had a shoulder holster? can you upload a photo?[[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it is a revolver or a pistol:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/
i couldnt see anything on the 2nd picture but the first was definetly a revolver. my guess, and im not expert with revolvers would be a .38 or 357 perhaps a S&W? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== Doc Schmid ==
In the movie PFC Kurt "Doc" Schmid is shown as a Ranger medic but in reality he was Delta Force. It's curious why they chose to depict him as a Ranger and not a Delta operator in the movie.

Maybe they forgot [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

:This is somewhat unrelated, but I found it really funny that Schmid is played by the same actor who later played [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/ Adam]. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==tapeing==
i was just watching this , and i noticed that a majority of the rangers taped the ends of the butt stocks on their rifles . Why is that?-[[User:Simmons 8492|Simmons 8492]]
:I believe that tape was used (not quite sure how) to attach the sling to the butt of the rifle. Tape is also used at the front of the rifle, to attach a loop of para cord around the front sight to the sling. The reason this was done was so that the sling would be attached on the top/side of the weapon, rather than the bottom (where the only fitted sling loops are) to make it more usable in combat. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

i noticed nearly all the mag's have brown tape on them, any reasons for this, or is it just purely cosmetic? [[User:Scarecrow|scarecrow]] 11:32, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

STANAG Magazines are smooth and can be hard to grip on to to reload, especially in a high stress situation like combat. The tape helps you to grip the magazine for a speedy reload, MAGPUL makes sleeves that slide over them now. [[User:Doc345|Doc345]] 3:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

== Nelson's M60 ==

Is is correct to have Nelson carrying the Vietnam Era M60 over the M60E3 or E4? I'm not sure when the E3 or E4 came out.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 03:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:The M60 used in the film is an original spec M60, the same as were actually used by the Rangers in Somalia (As identified by the hand guard and bi-pod attaching at the end of the barrel). Not sure exactly when the E3 was made (started being issues in 1986), but I know there was one in the 1985 film [[Commando]]. Regardless, I don't think it was that widely used, as the lighter weight barrel and other parts made the gun more prone to overheating and malfunction. The rangers actually used a mix of M60s and FN MAGs as shown below:
:[[Image:101120ritchie20pursley8yp.jpg|thumb|500px|none]]
:Also, there has been talk on this page about what the actual weapons used by Delta where, and I cannot speak to this operation in particular, but in most of the photos I have seen of Delta force in Somalia, there are actually armed with M16A2s, normally with a telescopic sight mounted onto the carry handle (example below). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/9607/21820burns20weaver6az.jpg
::Delta operators in Somalia used Colt Model 723 carbines with M4 style barrel, at least watching the few pictures of that time. --[[User:Pz.Abt.100|X-Ray Bravo 6]] 13:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:::Did the Rangers at the time use a black ballistic vest in addition to the woodland RBAs? While searching for M60 photos saw several photos of people in black vests carrying M16A2s with an optic on the handle, also sometimes carrying shotguns and LAWs. Are these likely Rangers rather than Delta then? Also, there are pictures of rangers using colt carbines with the step down M4 type barrels, so I think there was a much wider variety of weapons used than the film shows. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
::::The Rangers only wore Woodland camo RBA (Ranger Body Armor) vests and desert-camo PASGT helmets during the operation (see the "Interesting Uniform Note" section above for info about the desert camo patterns used in the film). Black vests were Delta-issue only. Sort of like present-day spec. ops units using Dragon Skin vests while the main Army uses Interceptor/IOTV vests (though it's not as easy to tell the difference between the modern-day examples by looking at them. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

In the book there was specific mention of a couple of the Rangers being stuck with the Delta "Turtle" Armor because they didn't have enough of the Ranger vests for a while.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 09:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Thanks, that explains photos like the following one then (also, note the Colt carbines with M4 type barrels the Rangers are carrying.)
:[[Image:RangersM4.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

:Also, can anyone shed some light as to what is going on with this SAW:
:[[Image:Saw.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
:First off, isn't this an E2, rather than the E1 as the main article says was used by the Rangers? Also, why does it look like the receiver is made of different metal, and is the sight mount a standard fitting, or something cobbled together? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Another thing the book mentions is that Delta's Armorer played gunsmith for some of the Ranger guys (at least 1 customized SAW is mentioned).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes that is the part I was referring to, although I remember there being more than just a grip added, but its been a while. Also Rangers aren't basic infantry, they too are a part of USASOC. and in a combat zone leeway with weapons (also uniforms, gear, etc) is pretty much at the command's discretion. I believe that they would allow Rangers a bit of leeway with modifying their weapons in certain ways to enhance their effectiveness in a given environment. Spc. Waddell's SAW grip would have been noticed by his command at some point, and either him or the Delta armorer would have had to get permission to modify it, being that it is US Gov property (not to mention the other customized weapons we see in Ranger's hands in photos).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 04:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Just noticing. Why do some people call it an "M4" type barrel? I mean it's a rifle in service before the M4 came out, so shouldn't it NOT be called an M4 barrel [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:48, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

You got me on that one... Probably because most people know the "M203 Step" Barrel as an M4 feature, so it gets genericised as an "M4 Profile Barrel".-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean didn't they have the step down barrel before the M4 came about? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 07:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe so, but it would have only been within a couple years of the M4s debut (the Colt 727 comes to mind). Another reason would be marketing, people will pay more for a milspec carbine that has the "M203 step barrel" even if they have no intention to ever mount anything to it.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Black Hawk Down

2011-02-12T05:53:58Z

Ranger01: /* Nelson's M60 */

== Hoot's "M4" ==
I think the article should be amended to only mention the weapon seen on Hoot's person when he's confronted by Capt. Steele during chow time. The weapon he's holding in the screengrab of him being picked up by Wolcott and the Delta guys is the same M727 he uses in the rest of the film. --[[Special:Contributions/131.216.48.250|131.216.48.250]] 16:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the carbine Sanderson handed him had the knobs signifying a detachable carry handle. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::Pretty damn sure. The front corner of that carry handle in the screencaps is too thin to be from an M4's carry handle. Definitely the mark of an A2 upper's carry handle as seen on M727s--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

== This probably isn't very important, but... ==
I went through and corrected the abbreviated ranks. Most of them were in Marine Corps form as opposed to Army form (ex., SSgt vs SSG). Like I said, probably not worth mentioning, but it's a little detail that was bugging me. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

== Weapon used by delta force ==

M4 was issued in 1994 before the battle which took place in 1993 ...the weapon seen in the movie and used by Delta operators was CAR-15

: If you'll look at the upper reciever and carry handle/rear-sight assembly, you'll see they match the [[M16 rifle series#M16A2 Rifle|M16A2]]-style of the early-model M4 carbine as shown in the picture above the screenshots. The CAR-15 (also known as the [[M16 rifle series#Colt Commando Carbine|Colt Commando]]) used the recievers and carry handle/rear sight assembly of the [[M16 rifle series#M16A1 Rifle|M16A1]]. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, the stock is wrong for the CAR15...its an M4
:How is the stock "wrong"? And no M4 has the flash suppressor of the Car-15 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Isn't it more likely that Randy Shughart was actually carrying a Springfield M21 rather than the M14?
:No, he was carrying a M14 during the actual battle and it is in his Medal of Honor citation. So its definitely a M14.
::Do you happen to have a link to his MoH citation? The book accounted that Shughart used an M21. --''[[User:Blemo|Blemo]] 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
:::To Blemo - I've got the book in my lap. Page 208, and I quote, "They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip." Right there in black and white. --[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
:Your point about the issue date of the M4 flies in the face of the logic that "IT'S A MOVIE".-protoAuthor 01:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
:Your point about "It's a movie" is in the face of the logic that we shouldn't use our brains and common sense. It's like watching a 1920s movie and seeing someone riding into a scene with a 1970 Mustang. Would you use the "It's a movie" logic there? What about a WWII movie and you see an F-18 shooting sidewinders at a Japanese Zero? The point of this site is so that we do point of the little details. It's like in IMDB where it points out which movie a certain actor has been in and what his role is. The same here on this side except you replace "Actor" with "pick a gun". Accuracy is the whole point. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]
:My point was, movies don't get things 100% correct.-protoAuthor 03:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

:Sometimes. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mistake? ==
There's a scene in the movie (1:37:53) where Yurek, Nelson and Twombly are about to rejoin the other Rangers at the Black Hawk crash site. While Yurek is on the radio to Eversmann (Josh Hartnett's character) he grabs a mag out of a Type 47 that a dead Somali soldier is still holding. Since the Rangers are all carrying 5.56 NATO M4A2s and FN Minimis, what would be the point of grabbing a 7.62mm mag? Seems like an odd oversight considering the camera kinda focuses on him taking the mag, and they've worked quite hard to maintain accuracy and detail in the film. Any ideas? Am I missing something? [[User:DamageW|DamageW]] 06:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:What the hell is a Type 47?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 15:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::i dont know, but they did that so the weapon was useless for someone to pick up and use. He probaly just ditched it later. -[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]
:::He's talking about an AK-47, but Type 47 definately isn't the right term. I always assumed he took it as a memento or something, because anyone can reload a weapon even if the magazine is removed. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::Actually, he grabs the mag because he's carrying an M60, and he probably figured he may be able to use the ammo later. Also, many SF types are known to, in extreme need, use the local weapons, and he may also have been preparing for that eventuality. [[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Taking AK rounds for an M60? the M60 fires 7.62x51 rounds, while the AK fires 7.62x39, plus you'd need to have the rounds already on a belt to be fired by an M60. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::I think that what Yurek was trying to do was deny the enemy ammunition should they pick up the AK. The Bowden's book accounted that many Somalis that were killed would have others reuse the same weapon. They briefly showed that when Busch was making his last stand by the downed chopper. Also, he may have kept it as a souvenir. It's not everyday you'll find a loaded AK magazine that had the potential to kill you. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Actually, I was suggesting that he was picking up the mag out of fear that at some point, he would need to resort to using an Ak, or that he would have the ammo if someone else had already been forced to pick up a local weapon. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
----
Also, What the motherfuck is an M4A2?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:The motherfuck that is an M4A2 is basically an M4 produced by another company such as Bushmaster Firearms. It's just another "M4gery". Also, Google is everyone's friend and it wouldn't hurt to ask it. ;) --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::I'd like to think he kept it as a souvenir, although the actual reason was whenever a member of militia was killed they were extremely dedicated to retrieving the body and the firearm, so removing the magazine would have made it useless, although picking up the the weapon and smashing it to pieces would probably have worked better[[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 14:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Smashing the weapon would have been noisy and they were trying to be quiet at that point IIRC.
::::fair point but i was thinking more like removing the driver spring, and its probably just that it would have made one less magazine for the somalians to use
I think the reason is that the enemy has 30 rounds less against the rangers. It's like in 'Saving Privat Ryan': the rescue team left Steamboat Willy alive; so he could kill Captain Miller. A wise decision of Yurek, I think

I noticed another mistake. During the scene where Gordon and Shughart are holding off the Somalis at the crash sight there's a quick moment when Shughart is seen using an M16A2 rifle instead of his M14 rifle. And in the very next scene and all following he's back to using the M14. [[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]

::::: I believe it was because he was firing his M14 until it ran out of ammo, and then using a helo crew member's M16 before retreating to reload both rifles.:::

:::- Yes, that's the case. Gordon is also seen dropping his CAR-15 when it's empty and using his 1911. Later, when Shughart is killed, he fires the M14 'til it's empty, then switching to his 1911, and when that is empty, using an MP5 from the chopper. Hell, they're being overwhelmed, and it is quicker to pick up and and shoot another weapon that is ready than reload the present one. They were pretty much using whatever they could trying their damndest to fend an army off, I would think that was obvious. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mike Durant's Book ==
In Mike Durant's book "The Night Stalkers" he quoted a few weapons he was using in the real life in the "Mog". I remember him talking about his MP5 not to metion he called it a "german piece of crap" for jamming. He also said Randy's Commando was on burst-fire 3 shots 1 kill. And the mini guns the rescue team could have been using can not run on the Black Hawk's batteries only on pure engine generating turbine power.
:To be fair, Mike Durant also seems to know very little about firearms. Also note that his memory may be jarred by the fact that, you know, he had just suffered a fucking HELICOPTER CRASH. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
::Actually, helicopter pilots have to be trained with certain firearms in order to survive in the event of a crash. Durant at least knew how to clear the jam on the 9mm submachine gun. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::160th SOAR aircrews, being a part of ASOC are trained not only in their specific role in the aircraft, but also on how to continue with the mission at hand along with their "customers." Hence, they're well-familiarized with fighting with the weapons carried on board with them (in the case of what was aboard Super-64, MP5s for the pilots, M16s for the crewchiefs and M9s carried by all of them).
:::What baffles me is how his MP5 kept jamming (in the book atleast). I know they were in the desert, but that MP5 had been stashed inside a helicopter, so it wouldn't be all dusty and full of sand. Maybe it is a German piece of crap then [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it was dusty inside of the chopper. Flying around in a helicopter with the rotor wash sending dust, smoke, and sand into and around the cabin won't help the MP5 from jamming, either. Pilots don't normally clean their emergency back-up weapons as they're supposed to. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Helicopter crews don't regularly use their weapons and so may not be as maintenance-minded as a Ranger or Delta. That could be one reason it kept jamming. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I did read Mike Durant's book and would like to point out he referred to Randy's weapon as a High-Tech rifle. as we all no, it was a vietnam era M14. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 21:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

:I just stared reading Durant's "In the Company of Heroes" before he called it a "German piece of crap", he said the MP5 had shot fine at the range but he probably had neglected to clean it. It was after Shughart gave him Gordon's CAR-15 which didn't jam and was far more effective despite only having half a mag left he thought of the MP5 as a piece of shit. He also had an M9 that he never drew, which he said probably saved his life since he wasn't seen as a threat. While Shughart's M14 isn't really a "High-Tech rifle" it was a lot better than a bolt-gun in the situation he was in. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 18:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

== The Hand ==
Does anyone know why that Ranger took the dead Delta Force member's hand?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:Probably to send it home with the rest of the body-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 16:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)
::I figured that too. But it's kind of creepy going around carrying an dead man's severed hand in your pocket. What about the smell? However, if i died in combat, i would like if my body went home and i had an funeral.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:::In the book, Othic took the hand that he had found and put it in his pocket to return it to the Delta operator that was blown in half. He had placed it with his body after he died, but strangely the movie did not show that, and made it seem like Othic kept the hand. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::::It wasn't the Delta Operator's hand. The shots of MSGTTim "Griz" Martin after being hit by the RPG show his hand still intact. More likely it belonged to one of the other soldiers aboard the truck that got hit. MSGT Martin was shipped off to Germany IIRC where he succumbed to his wounds shortly after.
:I bet it started to smell after a while-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==Flashlight Attachment Help==
[[Image:BHD Commando Flashlight.jpg|thumb|none|600px|What is this type of flashlight attachment called?]]
''What is the technical term for the flashlight to be attached to the '''barrel''' of the AR-15 series? It seems to be used only when there are handguards in place of the RIS railing. Sergeants Hoot, Busch, Sanderson, Gordon, and a couple other Deltas used the same attachment.'' --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 01:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:Before R.I.S. was introduced, I used to see a whole bunch of different flashlight attachments just like that one in the Blue Press. Some of them were even advertised as able to work on multiple types of weapons in the same caliber (i.e. AR-15s and Mini-14s). There were many different brands, so we can't be 100% sure what this movie's armorers used. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

::Oh, thanks, but I didn't mean what brands the movie used. I meant, what the generic term for these types of attachments that connect the flashlight to the barrel are called. I'm thinking about purchasing one for an AR-15 platform without the RIS. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 03:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::It's a barrel mount for a flashlight, that specific one was made by Surefire.

:::: Like the above said, It's a barrel mounted flashlight, made by Surefire. I actually managed to buy one of them that had been used in the Operation Gothic Serpent theater. These are still a good alternative to adding the weight of a rail to your firearm. I believe the flashlight is a model 600 or something similar.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==M4 in 1994?==
Question about the M4 not being period correct. If the events took place in September 1993 and the M4 went into service sometime in 1994, isn't possible that members of an elite group like Delta Force could have gotten their hands on a couple?

:I'd say it's plausible that Delta could have been field-testing a few XM4s that day. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

::In today's case, some special units are using the HK416 in the field. It likely that this was also the case with the M4 in 1993. That, or the armorers to the film got lazy and decided to throw in a few M4's for the M4 fans. Unlikely, but movies will do this. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:Well it isn't completely out there that at the time US special forces can get their hands on some experimental weapons and field test them. But I think for this movie, they just ran out of Car-15s to give to the Delta actors.[[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)he

The m4 was used in service since 1997 it is not possible for an m4 to be used.the delta operators may have used a xm117e2.

:Just because it didn't go into service until 94 or 97 doesn't mean D-boys didn't have a hold of them. There could well have been a prototype (or many test models) sent out with D-boys to see if the rifle performed to what was expected.
More than likely just an error. The simplest explanation is usually correct (Occam's Razor) BA
More likely than not the M4 in the film is simply an anachronism due to a shortage of Colt Commandos. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 02:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

'''Don't forget about the 10th Mountain and the U.N Soldiers. Whoever created this page missed them completly and they had alot of firearms. Whats omore is i can't for some reason edit the page. the autheor needs to fix this right away'''

::I have explained elsewhere that the Colt Model 727 carbine, which LOOKS just like an early M4 (but has a semi/full-auto trigger group, rather than semi/burst as on the Model 777, AKA the earliest M4) was introduced in the late-1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 05:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

:::The 727 has a fixed carry handle, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

::::So did the Model 777, which is the first gun that was ever adopted by the U.S. military as the "M4". The 727 and 777 are the same gun aside from their trigger groups. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::I'm fairly certain this convo is referring to the later M4 with detachable carry handle. That's why I mentioned the 727 having an A2 upper. ;) [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...

== Shughart and the M14/M16 switch ==
Does anyone know if Shughart briefly using an M16A2 while defending Durant's crash site is intentional or a mistake? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

:intentional, in the book moments beforehand hed asked durant where the spare weapons were kept aboard the black hawk, and for some reason this scene was omitted from the film. Shughart had ran dry with his 7.62 M14 and so couldnt have used the 5.56 from the M16 mags. :)

::Yeah, Shughart asked if there were any spare rifles or radios ''after'' Gordon got shot. This caused Durant to realize that Gordon may have been hit and that they were stranded on their own. However, the book didn't mention Shughart ''actually'' using the M16. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, good point, but i dont get why brad hallings didnt join them? he could have done so much more on the ground than on the black hawk, especially since he had his leg blown off up there aswell. oh and btw, im a newcomer, how do i tag comments with my name at the end?
:By putting four ~ at the end of every message.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thanks :) [[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 00:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe the reason why Halling didn’t insert with the Shughart and Gordon was because by the time the team was given the go-ahead to insert, Halling had taken control of the minigun due to a member of the helicopter crew being injured.--[[User:Mauser|Mauser]] 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

i dont know if he was actually using it, but in the movie version i think were supposed to think he took from a crew chief (since they carried an m16a2

the guy must have to taken the m16 from one of the blackhawk passengers and the blackhawks do carry spare weapons on board. (actual assassin)

Im sure most people so dedicated to this site probably noticed this but ill say it anyway. (**SPOILER**) ok right as MSsgt. Gordon is shot in the head and Shughart checks him it flashes over to Durant, and sure enough if you look you'll notice Gordon's CAR-15 on his lap. moments later Shughart runs over to Durant hands him the CAR-15 and says "Gordy's gone man, i'll be outside...Goodluck." just pointing it out. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

== Change made to 1911 article/picture ==

Not sure where IMDB gets its info from, but Kim Coates plays Master Sergeant Tim 'Griz' Martin, the unfortunate Delta operator who was blown in half by the RPG when the convoy is attempting to extract. He is not the Delta operator seen using the 1911 at the firing range and the picture and article have been edited for correction.

--[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

All the Delta Force members' names were changed for the film except for Busch, Shughart and Gordon. "Wex" is the name credited to Kim Coates in the end credits. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Anybody else notice that when Wex is firing his 1911, he's walking down the range towards the targets while people behind him are still firing? seems kind of unsafe.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 19:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

-- In a deleted scene, it is shown that Eversman calls cease fire on the range in response to him moving into the line of fire, and just responding to such percieved recklessness by simply muttering "Fuckin' Delta..."--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 22:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

on topic of 1911s does anyone know what kind of 1911s they really used? for example i find it hard to believe they would be using normal 1911s when the MK.IVs were out

-- They were regular M1911A1s as it is cheaper for the armorers to use GI style pistols instead of procuring brand new weapons or paying a pistolsmith for costly modifications on movie props that could later be used in other films. In reality, Delta operators would take their issued 1911s (which were often relics found in the supply system) and have them done by some of the best pistolsmiths they could find to do the work (or do the work in-house when at all possible). Some of that talent rubbed off on the operators themselves; Larry Vickers, a former Delta Operator himself, is one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the business and is one of the go-to guys for Delta's custom 1911s.

== Dillon/GE Miniguns ==

The Miniguns during the actual event would have been GE M134s. The Miniguns in the movie were Dillon Aero Miniguns, but not quite M134Ds. They had some of the DA upgrades on them though. That's from the commentary and some interviews online with Dillon Aero. I remember it being mentioned in one of the special features that the Dillon guns in the movie could have been fired off the Black Hawk's batteries, but the older GE ones in the real incident would have been unuseable at the crash site.

== 870 Remington Shotgun. ==

Not sure if this is worth noting, but in real life, the operator on who SGT. Sanderson was based, Paul Howe, had his shotgun rigged under his CAR-15 in a "Masterkey" configuration. Also, it can be seen being used in the directors cut to breach a door.

== Rescue Heli Star 41 ==

The AH-6, that inbounds to Wolcott's crash site (Star 41), has miniguns and rocket pods. The helicopter that is finally landing at the chrashed Black Hawk hasn't any weapons onboard, so probably a MH-6.
:Continuity error most likely. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

== Flashlights ==
I watched the movie, and I was wondering, if Delta force had flashlights on their M733 and M727's, why didnt they use them? I could see that they would want to keep stealth in night, but if they're firing at the enemy, the muzzle flash would show their position anyway.

:Actors probably forgot or were never told [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Flashlights are not going to give you enough illumination to shoot at targets across buildings. They're better for room clearing. Besides you wouldn't use them if you have NOD's. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)v
:Not to mention a flashlight beam in that environment would scream, "here I am, shoot me!" [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

does anyone no how they would have mounted the tac-lights back then? like now-a-days we have RIS/Picatanny rails. then they would mod it to the barrel. how would they do that if they have a shotgun under the barrel? Larry Vickers mentioned that he hose clamped his to the bottom of the barrel. but he didnt have a masterkey. any suggestions? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 15:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hose clamped it to the side or top of the barrel? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Larry had his hose-clamped to the bottom. he used his in Panama (acid Gambit) i was surprised at how resoursefull they were. he also took some cardboard and put them inbetween Mags for a quick reload. and the aimpoint on his gun looked ancient. [[Special:Contributions/71.194.219.9|71.194.219.9]] 22:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

== Possible Error? ==
Anyone notice that the picture of Sanderson firing his M727 during the Mogadishu Mile? It looks like the chamber is clear and the bolt is open. That means the weapon is empty, but in the movie you still hear two more shots before he switches to his sidearm. Is it just the angle, or is it just an error in continuity?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a continuity error, a continuity error would be when one seen a guy has a 1911 and the next he suddenly has a Beretta M9. I can't say for I don't remember this. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 16:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

== Actor in the Specials ==

Do we see this actor in Delta costume in the movie often? Because all the behind the scenes shot is this guy and I don't recognize him. Is he an extra that is like way in the back of the other guys? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

What guy?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This guy
[[Image:BHD2Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor aims Durant's MP5 in movie armory. Note the other weapons behind him.]]
[[Image:BHD1Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor in Delta clothes shows M16A2 in the movie armory.]]
[[Image:DHD3Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta actor shows vehicle-mounted M60s.]]

That's Jeremy Piven, nowadays best known for playing Ari Gold on HBO's Entourage. Wikipedia says he played CFO Clifton Wolcott.

:I do not think it Piven. In the film he plays a pilot role and his hair is black.
http://files.haiguinet.com/flashupload/UploadedFiles/1252005569_159Jeremy_Piven.jpg
http://emsworth.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/jeremy-piven-in-black-hawk-down-2.jpg
When I put the photos on the page, before to name him "delta actor", I looked for the name of this guy in the entire cast. Unsuccessfully. I think it is a stunt.--[[User:Charly Driver|Charly Driver]] 17:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

== Seriously ==
[[Image:BHD 015.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta Force SFC Sanderson ([[William Fichtner]]) fires his M1911A1 during the "Mogadishu Mile". It seems unlikely a well trained operator would wear his flight gloves like shown.]]
Seriously? A well trained operator wouldnt wear his gloves like that? This mall-ninja crap needs to stop. Theres no special way to wear flight gloves, you put the goddamn things on and wear 'em. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
:Actually, special forces operators of that era often wore flight gloves, just like that. Fun fact. Flight gloves are made for use by individuals who fly planes; they need a glove that will keep their hands a bit warmer than they normally will be, but will still allow them to feel the tactile sensation of the various knobs and switches and provide the nimbleness that the human hand gives us. The solution? Flight gloves. They are the precursors to the gloves we see in use by military units now; the Oakley tacticool gloves (fun fact: Oakley started out making motorcycle gloves) or the Blackhawk gloves and what have you. I'm really loving these mall-ninjas popping up thinking they know about shooting or special forces work. I can think of a few damn good reasons off the top of my hand to never, ever take gloves off in a combat situation, personally, and a well-fitted pair of gloves will be just like a second skin.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 01:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I believe the comment means it isn't likely he'd wear them while shooting - Full-finger gloves can be obstructive/restrictive when it comes to finger movement, which isn't exactly a good thing when you need to make accurate shots. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 01:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

::Flight gloves, as I just fucking explained, are not restrictive or obstructive in the slightest.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

:::- ''Uh, I had replied below I didn't know about these gloves specifically, which you seem to have failed to notice. Just as you also seem to have failed to notice that all these comments you posted this slightly irritable and unnecessary response in-between were all posted '''days ago'''. It might help if you thoroughly read the comments and check the dates next time.'' [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 15:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Honestly how would anyone here really know....are any of you "operators"?? -and if you say yes I'm going to say that your lying.....I'm going to delete that quip about his gloves in the caption, it's not hard to shoot with gloves on, especially flyers gloves. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
:Thank you, it just bugs the living shit outta me when armchair commandos think they know operator/tactical/omfgdelta stuff. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
::- Well, I'm indeed no 'operator', but I don't have to be one to know that it is hard to shoot with some gloves, especially if you're making distance shots. But I'm not familiar with flight gloves specifically, so I guess they're no trouble, I don't know. In any case, it just seemed to me the context of Winn's comment was that he was saying that it was stating merely that the gloves need to be worn some special way (and Winns right - they're gloves, what special way is there), but that's the problem with text sometimes. Anyway, not trying to make a valid claim, just an opinion. I can't speak for whoever made original remark, though. Either way, I never gave that comment much thought myself. I'm personally more peeved about quips on peoples (actors) stances myself. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Flight gloves are a very thin layer of Nomex with a Clarino palm and finger overlaid. These are very light, wick sweat, and give you tactile feeling and the ability to perform tasks as though you were bare handed. They are maybe a few mm thick on the palms, and do not affect in any way your shooting ability or accuracy, even whilst firing an M249, which is notorious for running away due to gloves getting stuck and holding the trigger back.

==Discussion about the bullets, or something==
- Something I always found a bit funny about that particular scene - Sanderson misses the two targets with his 727 carbine (firing several shots), yet hits them both with one .45 shot each (or actually, maybe one was hit twice, and the other once). Heh. But of course, I'd imagine some people can actually be better with a handgun than a rifle in some instances. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

I haven't seen the movie in a few months, but if I remember correctly he had actually hit the targets with his rifle, but the rounds went completely through and didn't kill the targets. So he used his .45 to actually kill them. There is a part in the book where it is mentioned that they had been issued "green tip" rounds (armor piercing/ anti personnel 5.56 ammo with a steel penetrator tip), and another part that talked about the rounds lack of effectiveness against the drugged up Somalis. One guy unloaded a belt from his SAW into a couple Somalis and they kept coming at them b/c the rounds just went right through and didn't do any major (fight stopping) damage. Another reason why they talk about how Randy Shughart was a smart SOB for using a 7.62 M14 and normal ammo. As for the gloves... Flight gloves have been used for years by ground personnel because they are thin enough to still be able to feel things with your hands, but they are still something to protect against scrapes, burns, dirt, etc.. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No argument here Ranger. but i would also like to point out in the book Mark also mentions that they(the rangers) fired SAW and believe it or not M-60 ammunition, that would happen to be the same M-60 that carries the heavy hitting 7.62mm however that guy was probably high as a kite anyways so idont think it would have made much of a difference. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

:- That's all fascinating, except in the movie, Sanderson (Fichtner) just ''missed them''. I was remarking on how the movie showed him ''missing'' two almost perfectly still targets with the 727 carbine and hitting them with the .45. That's all. Interesting tidbit about the ammo though. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

Well, the point about RS and his M14 was what the book said. It was not so much the size of the bullet, but whether or not it was AP ammo (super hard bullet at very high velocity). An AP round from a 5.56 to the heart will create a very small hole, and if the person who is shot is high on drugs then they are probably not even going to notice it until they finally keel over (which will probably take a while). At the same time a FMJ from a .45 while it still probably wont blow the heart to kingdom come, will make a large enough hole that it will cause bleed out to happen faster (hopefully fast enough). Then again at close range any 5.56 and even 7.62 ammo isnt going to be as effective as a .45 round b/c of the rifle round's high velocities compared to the .45s low velocity. When faced with an unarmored threat below about 50 yards, a pistol round (be it .45, 9mm, .40, etc) is going to be much more effective (unless it is something like the 5.7 round, which has no immediate stopping power unless a CNS or head shot is attained). Long post short: will a 5.56 or 7.62 to the heart kill someone at close range? Most likely yes. Will it do it quick enough to stop an attacker from killing/ wounding you or your allies? Maybe. If he missed them, then it was probably just to add suspense or a "weapon switch to show he is an elite operator" shot to the scene.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 00:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

um this is extremely off topic like usual but id just like for someone to explain the purpose of using a 5.56 by a Counter-Terrorist Unit. tell me if im missing something but when their clearing rooms A.) the round wont immediatly kill a combatant when you wont him to die. and 2. say its an assault on multiple rooms at once and boom you miss your target (or it just passes through him) and boom goes through the wall like the round is meant to and bam! clips a friendly or even worse a hostage. explain the logic to me please. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 00:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, logistics. If they are expecting to be 100% in a building they will use SMGs, Shotguns, etc. But if they have an expectation that being in a building is only going to be 10-25% of the mission they will usually carry rifles. The main problem with the mission portrayed in BHD is that the brass expected to have to combat (lightly) armored vehicles, so they issued AP rounds. Now days the AP rounds are for some odd reason pretty much 90% of what the US Army issues. Army Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta, etc. use a type of semi-expanding bullet, as does the Marine Corps.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 01:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There are other reasons as well. It's a fairly accurate rifle round, which, when in situations that will require shooting further than 50-100 meters, is necessary to have. It's a relatively light round, and most people can easily carry a few mags of 5.56 without feeling it too much. As far as stopping power goes, in barrels that don't over-stabilize the round, the 5.56 will fragment (not the AP round, obviously), slowing itself in the body and thus penetration becomes less of an issue. When you consider that most SF types use expanding bullets, this nearly negates the issue. There's a reason that most countries use the 5.56 round or something similar.
As far as the issuance of AP rounds in a war that clearly didn't need them, I've heard two sides of the argument. I've heard that, as Ranger01 said, they were issued because they thought they may run into light vehicles (although they brought along plenty of LAWs to deal with that). But what I heard from an individual who was there was that the men believed it was because Clinton believed that rounds that expanded would A) not make good headlines and B) violate some convention (I believe the Geneva convention).--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Geneva convention forbids hollow point ammo in the military. The Police of the nation is a different subject. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:You're thinking of the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 03:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was the GC or HC and didn't really care to look it up at the moment.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Hague banned all use of ammunition that easily expands or flattens in a human target. I have no exact idea of what round is being used or how it gets around the HC, I only know that when asked about the effectiveness of 5.56 ammunition, a few SF guys made mention that have been issued a new "expanding" round. I have also heard that Marines are now being issued an expanding type round. It may be that since we are not actually fighting an official "military force" that the HC and GC do not apply. Also you must remember that the use of .50 cal against personnel is banned too, how often do you think that is observed?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not saying we follow either conventions to a T in every war, I'm just echoing what I heard from a man who was there. A lot of people who lived through the battle of mogadishu came away with the feeling that Bill Clinton cared more about how headlines would look than he did about the safety of our soldiers. As for HC and GC not applying, I agree that they really don't apply to A) organizations that are not militaries but instead ragtag terrorist groups and B) hail from nations that didn't exist at the time of the convention and never signed a similar document. It's the same argument that was applied for the waterboarding of captured terrorists; apparently, they apply some standards to those who didn't sign, but not others. Personally, I think that terrorist groups and undeveloped countries where they never signed the conventions shouldn't get the protection of them, and we really need to invest into expanding ammunitions for everyone; AP doesn't make sense for unarmored targets.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The question about observing the laws was rhetorical in nature. But I agree wholeheartedly about what you say pertaining to the HC and GC applying to people who did not sign it. Its like bringing pirates and terrorists into the US to give them civilian trials. People say they should get military trials... When according to the GC (that people are so happy to apply to the situation) pirates and terrorists are not able to receive either. We selectively apply laws to make us look good internationally, when in reality it costs money, and even worse lives of US citizens and military forces.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 12:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances full metal jacket .556 is an ideal round. When fighting a traditional battle, against an enemy that follows the rules of war, it is far better to wound the enemy than kill him. Gunner313

We haven't fought a conventional war that lasted any period of time since Korea (and you could even say WWII, since Korea was less than conventional). Also with the way the enemy works now, any intel we can gather from enemy combatants will likely be useless (if it ever was useful) by the time it gets to the guys on the ground. Also as stated by me, and others before, under 50 yards and especially against an enemy that is drugged up a FMJ is likely not going to down an enemy either by wounding him or killing him. Of course shot placement comes into play heavily, but as cases have proven a COM shot is likely not to drop a determined attacker immediately. Head and extremity shots are also very hard to make, with FMJ pretty much the only way to immediately and most important reliably drop an attacker at close range is a pelvic shot. But now days in Afghanistan most fighting is taking place on the far end if not beyond the 5.56's effective range. Also Gunner313 it is 5.56, not .556, .556mm is a really damn small projectile haha. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 14:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

One could say that the First Gulf War was conventional. we were fighting an organized military(Iraq), i still think they were a bunch of crazy towel heads hellbent on destroying the western world.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Why is it better to wound them? -SasquatchJim.

Because then you can detain them get information from them.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. I apologize; I thought he meant that wounding them was more humane, or something. Although, dead people can't keep shooting at you; wounded ones can. -SasquatchJim

It is better to wound them because it requires the enemy to care for their wounded, they have to be treated, they have to be transported, it is demoralizing to the others to hear someone in terrible pain, so for a short time a wounding shot, takes two people out of the fight. Also the more medical supplies that have to be shipped to the front for the wounded, means less of other items such as ammo, food, fuel, misc... Gunner313

Makes sense to me. Thanks. -SJ

Well in my opinion, I still think it's better to kill the enemy rather than just wound them, that way they don't get patched up and come back later to kill you.

agreed. especially in Somalia when if their not dead their gunna come back and shoot you in the back. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

:- Bah, can't believe my one off-hand comment spawned all this. Heh. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 22:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to add other than that this was really informative. This site is one of the best blind discoveries I've made on the internet. --[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]] 01:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Never Forget==
Sorry to post as anon, but I dont have an account but frequent the site. Just wanted to point out that today is the 17th anniversary of the US intervention in Somalia.

:- Actually the anniversary is for the mission and subsequent battle portrayed in the film. The 'intervention' began as Operation Provide Relief, which started in December 1992. Still, good to point it out. EDIT - I actually just realized that not only is it the anniversary, but the actual day is correct (That is, Oct. 3 was a Sunday, same day as the Oct. 3 in the battle). Again, pretty cool I guess. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The entire day yesterday i thought about it. i decided to watch the movie being Sunday Oct-3. i also found it fit to say a pray for the brave soldiers who lost their lives fighting to help the ungratefull bastards. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Interesting Uniform Note==

Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the 1990's and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new DCU's with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.

[[Image:BHDMinimi-4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|[[Tom Hardy]] wielding an FN Minimi as Spc. Twombly, giving us a good look at his 3-color DCU uniform and 6-color helmet cover]]

[[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mo'alim (Razaaq Adoti) gun ==

What gun have Mo'alim in his shoulder? He don't remove it from the shoulder at any time, but there are two scenes where you can see:

1 When prevents the killing of Duran:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/

2 When the cannon is firing in the area of the first downed helicopter:
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/

are you referring to the AK-74u? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he is referring to the pistol in his shoulder holster under his left arm. Can't make it out though, will have to have a look on my Bluray version when I get a minute, but don't think it can be seen well enough to make it out. --[[User:Commando552|Commando552]] 10:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

i wasn't aware he had a shoulder holster? can you upload a photo?[[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it is a revolver or a pistol:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/
i couldnt see anything on the 2nd picture but the first was definetly a revolver. my guess, and im not expert with revolvers would be a .38 or 357 perhaps a S&W? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== Doc Schmid ==
In the movie PFC Kurt "Doc" Schmid is shown as a Ranger medic but in reality he was Delta Force. It's curious why they chose to depict him as a Ranger and not a Delta operator in the movie.

Maybe they forgot [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

:This is somewhat unrelated, but I found it really funny that Schmid is played by the same actor who later played [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/ Adam]. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==tapeing==
i was just watching this , and i noticed that a majority of the rangers taped the ends of the butt stocks on their rifles . Why is that?-[[User:Simmons 8492|Simmons 8492]]
:I believe that tape was used (not quite sure how) to attach the sling to the butt of the rifle. Tape is also used at the front of the rifle, to attach a loop of para cord around the front sight to the sling. The reason this was done was so that the sling would be attached on the top/side of the weapon, rather than the bottom (where the only fitted sling loops are) to make it more usable in combat. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

i noticed nearly all the mag's have brown tape on them, any reasons for this, or is it just purely cosmetic? [[User:Scarecrow|scarecrow]] 11:32, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

== Nelson's M60 ==

Is is correct to have Nelson carrying the Vietnam Era M60 over the M60E3 or E4? I'm not sure when the E3 or E4 came out.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 03:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:The M60 used in the film is an original spec M60, the same as were actually used by the Rangers in Somalia (As identified by the hand guard and bi-pod attaching at the end of the barrel). Not sure exactly when the E3 was made (started being issues in 1986), but I know there was one in the 1985 film [[Commando]]. Regardless, I don't think it was that widely used, as the lighter weight barrel and other parts made the gun more prone to overheating and malfunction. The rangers actually used a mix of M60s and FN MAGs as shown below:
:[[Image:101120ritchie20pursley8yp.jpg|thumb|500px|none]]
:Also, there has been talk on this page about what the actual weapons used by Delta where, and I cannot speak to this operation in particular, but in most of the photos I have seen of Delta force in Somalia, there are actually armed with M16A2s, normally with a telescopic sight mounted onto the carry handle (example below). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/9607/21820burns20weaver6az.jpg
::Delta operators in Somalia used Colt Model 723 carbines with M4 style barrel, at least watching the few pictures of that time. --[[User:Pz.Abt.100|X-Ray Bravo 6]] 13:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:::Did the Rangers at the time use a black ballistic vest in addition to the woodland RBAs? While searching for M60 photos saw several photos of people in black vests carrying M16A2s with an optic on the handle, also sometimes carrying shotguns and LAWs. Are these likely Rangers rather than Delta then? Also, there are pictures of rangers using colt carbines with the step down M4 type barrels, so I think there was a much wider variety of weapons used than the film shows. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
::::The Rangers only wore Woodland camo RBA (Ranger Body Armor) vests and desert-camo PASGT helmets during the operation (see the "Interesting Uniform Note" section above for info about the desert camo patterns used in the film). Black vests were Delta-issue only. Sort of like present-day spec. ops units using Dragon Skin vests while the main Army uses Interceptor/IOTV vests (though it's not as easy to tell the difference between the modern-day examples by looking at them. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

In the book there was specific mention of a couple of the Rangers being stuck with the Delta "Turtle" Armor because they didn't have enough of the Ranger vests for a while.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 09:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Thanks, that explains photos like the following one then (also, note the Colt carbines with M4 type barrels the Rangers are carrying.)
:[[Image:RangersM4.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

:Also, can anyone shed some light as to what is going on with this SAW:
:[[Image:Saw.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
:First off, isn't this an E2, rather than the E1 as the main article says was used by the Rangers? Also, why does it look like the receiver is made of different metal, and is the sight mount a standard fitting, or something cobbled together? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Another thing the book mentions is that Delta's Armorer played gunsmith for some of the Ranger guys (at least 1 customized SAW is mentioned).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes that is the part I was referring to, although I remember there being more than just a grip added, but its been a while. Also Rangers aren't basic infantry, they too are a part of USASOC. and in a combat zone leeway with weapons (also uniforms, gear, etc) is pretty much at the command's discretion. I believe that they would allow Rangers a bit of leeway with modifying their weapons in certain ways to enhance their effectiveness in a given environment. Spc. Waddell's SAW grip would have been noticed by his command at some point, and either him or the Delta armorer would have had to get permission to modify it, being that it is US Gov property (not to mention the other customized weapons we see in Ranger's hands in photos).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 04:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Just noticing. Why do some people call it an "M4" type barrel? I mean it's a rifle in service before the M4 came out, so shouldn't it NOT be called an M4 barrel [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:48, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

You got me on that one... Probably because most people know the "M203 Step" Barrel as an M4 feature, so it gets genericised as an "M4 Profile Barrel".-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Talk:M1911 pistol series

2011-02-09T08:46:04Z

Ranger01: /* MEU(SOC) Pistol... */

==Additional Variants==
===Screen Used===
[[Image:EnemyofState1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Screen-used original Colt M1911 pistol wielded by [[Gene Hackman]]'s character Brill in ''[[Enemy of the State]]'', serial #357414 (photo from Long Mountain Outfitters).]]
[[Image:M1911WeWereSoldiers.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Screen used M1911 pistol (Hero Gun) carried and used by [[Sam Elliott]] as Command Sergeant Major Basil Plumley in ''[[We Were Soldiers]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1WeWereSoldiers.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Screen Used Hero Gun M1911A1, carried by [[Mel Gibson]] as Lt. Col. Hal Moore in the film ''[[We Were Soldiers]]'' - .45 ACP. Provided by Cinema Weaponry.]]
[[Image:ColtMkIVSilver DeNiro Machete.jpg‎|thumb|none|450px|Custom engraved nickel plated Colt MKIV Series 80 with pearl grips - .45 ACP. This is the screen used pistol for [[Robert De Niro]] playing Senator McLaughlin in the upcoming Robert Rodriguez film [[Machete]] (scheduled for release on April 16, 2010). Though the slide is marked "Mk IV Series 80", it appears to have been a standard M1911A1 frame. ]]
[[Image:ColtCustomXXX.jpg‎|thumb|450px|none|This is the screen used Colt XSE M1911 Pistol, wielded, carried (and lost) by August Gibbons ([[Samuel L. Jackson]]) in the film ''[[XXX 2: State of the Union]]''. This pistol has a customized slide with the initials "A G" etched (for "Augustus Gibbons") and also has the logo for SEAL TEAM 4 in the center - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:T2M1911detonicsprop.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The Colt/Detonics M1911A1 Series 70 hybrid pistol used in the film ''[[Terminator 2: Judgment Day]]'' - 9x19mm.]]
[[Image:SCM1911A1-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The stainless Springfield Armory M1911A1 used by [[Benicio del Toro|Benico Del Toro]] as Detective Jack Rafferty in the film ''[[Sin City]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:TitanicM1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|A Nickel-Plated ''[[Titanic]]'' M1911 from Stembridge Gun Rentals - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:P1010522ig5.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Actual D&L Sports Professional Model Longslides - .45 ACP movie props used by the Comedian [[Jeffrey Dean Morgan]] in ''[[Watchmen]]''.]]
[[Image:Wanted_21.JPG|thumb|none|450px|The Safari Arms Matchmaster used by [[Angelina Jolie]] in the film ''[[Wanted]]'' - .45 ACP. Note Safari Arms Lion logo.]]
[[Image:IMG 1666.JPG|thumb|none|450px|A Kimber Warrior - .45 ACP used on ''[[The Unit]]''. The weapon pictured here was the actual Warrior carried and fired by Dennis Haysbert in the last season.]]
[[Image:IMG 1534.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Another Kimber Warrior - .45 ACP was used in the most recent season of ''[[The Unit]]''. This was Dennis Haysbert's backup weapon in case the first failed (it is customary in Hollywood for each "hero" gun use to have at least one backup on set).]]
[[Image:BDSIIParas-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|A pair of Para-Ordnance SSPs (.45 ACP) as used in ''[[The Boondock Saints II: All Saints Day]]''. The weapons pictured here were the actual screen-used guns handled and fired by Clifton Collins, Jr. in the film; note the custom grips, golden suppressors, and "El Jefe" engraved into the slides. ''(Big thanks to [[Al Vrkljan]] at Movie Armaments Group for this IMFDB Exclusive image!)'']]
[[Image:ShootEmUp-HammersonNiteTac-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|A Para-Ordnance Nite-Tac (.45 ACP) used in ''[[Shoot 'Em Up]]''. The weapon pictured here is one of the actual screen-used guns from the film; note the engraved Hammerson logo. ''(Big thanks to [[Al Vrkljan]] at Movie Armaments Group for this IMFDB Exclusive image!)'']]
[[Image:1911-The Getaway.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Government Commercial M1911 - .45 ACP used by [[Steve McQueen]] in the film ''[[Getaway, The (1972)]]''.]]
[[Image:M&MSColtXSEusedinfilm.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The Colt M1911A1 XSE - .45 ACP used in the film ''[[Mr. & Mrs. Smith]]''.]]
[[Image:ColtM1911A1PunisherProps.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The two blank firing prop custom Colt M1911A1s used in the film ''[[Punisher, The (2004)]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:NashBridges1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Nash Bridges' Custom 1911 - .38 Super. This is the actual pistol that was used by [[Don Johnson]] in the show ''[[Nash Bridges]]''.]]
[[Image:Colt-M1911A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The actual M1911A1 [[Pierce Brosnan]] used in ''[[The World Is Not Enough]]'' - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:SerenityM191A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Jayne Cobb's Mocked-Up Custom M1911A1 - .45 ACP used in the film ''[[Serenity]]''.]]
[[Image:P00654 1911 Full Left.jpg|thumb|none|450px|'''World IMFDB Exclusive:''' Screen used Colt M1911 with Nickel-plated and pearl grips - .45 ACP pistol. This non-firing prop weapon is verified as screen used from the film '''[[The Other Guys]]'''. The gun is accompanied by the Galco shoulder holster and clip pouch also used in numerous scenes from the film. This item is currently being sold by [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/ The Golden Closet]; see [http://www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=6ef04a13fbe759cbdcbdc6bc4c4b809f&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TGC&Product_Code=P00654&Category_Code=OtherGuys here].]]
[[Image:IMG 1509.JPG|thumb|none|450px|A Strayer Voight Infinity - .45 ACP. This is one of the actual guns that has been used by The Company henchmen on ''[[Heroes]]''; this weapon was supplied to the show by Independent Studio Services and has been used on every season.]]
[[Image:Expendable-kimber-b.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Modified Kimber Gold Combat II used by [[Sylvester Stallone‎]] in ''[[Expendables, The|The Expendables]]'' - .45 ACP]]

===Airsoft Variants===
[[Image:GP WE M1911Peral lg.jpg|thumb|none|450px|An airsoft reproduction of the Springfield Armory M1911-A1 made by J-Armoury (Western Arms) used in the film ''[[Se7en]]''.]]
[[Image:CobrGold1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Perfect airsoft replica of Cobra's Colt GC National Match - .9mm Pistol made by Western Arms.]]
[[Image:Htk1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft replica of Storm's M1911A1 from ''[[Hard to Kill]]'' - made by Western Arms.]]
[[Image:WA-WLUF_2_mark.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Replica of Castor Troy's custom Springfield Armory M1911-A1 - .45 ACP from the film ''[[Face/Off]]''.]]
[[Image:WA490 4 mark.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Airsoft Long Slide Jim Hoag M1911A1 replica - .45 ACP, very similar to what Frank ([[James Caan]]) used in the film ''[[Thief]]''.]]
[[Image:Snake_.45-2.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Sheriff Co. "Custom M1911" Airsoft Gun - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:SAProTac.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Springfield Armory Loaded - .45 ACP. This is an airsoft replica of the real model.]]
[[Image:Snake_.45.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Operator - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Baby1.jpg|thumb|450px|none|WE Hi Capa 5.1 Full Metal Dragon Custom M1911 (Type B) Black Model with blue LED lights in the grip - .45 ACP]]

===Other Variants===
[[Image:Kimber_Ultra_Crimson_Carry_II.jpg|thumb|none|350px|Kimber Ultra Carry Crimson II - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Kongsberg M1914.JPG|thumb|450px|none|Kongsberg M1914 - .45 ACP. The Kongsberg M/1914 is a Colt M1911 pistol produced under license by the Norwegian factory Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk, with a minor modification to the slide stop and stock.]]
[[Image:.38Super1911MachinePistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|The real-life Dillinger's .38 Super M1911A1 Machine Pistol, for comparison purposes.]]
[[Image:SPRINGFIELD ARMORY 1911 PISTOL.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory M1911A1 mil-spec stainless - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:SpringfieldArmoryM1911A1stainless.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory M1911A1 "Mil-Spec" - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Strayer-Voigt.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Strayer Voight Infinity 1911 - .45 ACP with spare magazine and unfired rounds]]
[[Image:ED 45.jpg|thumb|none|450px|AMT Hardballer Longslide - .45 ACP with laserlock sight as used in the film ''[[The Terminator]]''.]]
[[Image:AMT_Hardballer_Hitman_Replica.jpg|390px|thumb|none|A near-perfect, firing, replica of the "Silverballers" from the Hitman series.]]

[[Image:MilSpec-1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory Mil-spec M1911A1 - .45 ACP. This was one of the most commonly seen .45s used by LAPD SWAT before the Kimber Custom TLE II.]]
[[Image:0862731R.jpg|thumb|none|450px|M1911A1 Commercial (Same marks of the movie's pistol) - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:PC9111.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory Professional 1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1ithaca.jpg|thumb|none|450px|World War II Ithaca made M1911A1 with light grey finish - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:PublicEnemies1.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Pre-War Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP used on ''[[Public Enemies]]'' (2009)]]
[[Image:SW1911pd.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911PD Tactical Rail - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:1911 Longslide.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP. This model is very similar to the one in the episode on the ''[[Miami Vice (TV Series)]]''.]]
[[Image:Colt45.jpg|thumb|none|450px|M1911A1 .45 ACP with Pachymar grips]]
[[Image:Taurus PT1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Taurus PT1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Bruni8mm.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Bruni M1911A1-style blank firing stage prop - 8mm blank.]]
[[Image:Para1911G.I..jpg|thumb|none|450px|Para 1911 G.I. Expert - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:SA_loaded_m1911.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Springfield Armory Loaded M1911A1 - .45 ACP similar to the one used by Sydney Bristow from ''[[Alias]]''.]]
[[Image:Peter-1-5006-1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Federal Ordnance PSP-07 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:TIKI.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Strayer Voight Infinity TIKI - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:CustomM1911A1.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Custom Colt Series 80 M1911A1 pistol similair to one in the film ''[[Street Kings]]'' - .45 ACP.]]
[[Image:LaserAimSeriesIIIPistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|LaserAim Series III Pistol - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:KimberUltraRaptor.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Kimber Stainless Ultra Raptor - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Para645LDA.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Para-Ordnance 6.45 LDA with spare magazines - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:ColtDefenderRIGHT83.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Defender - .45 ACP was similar to the one used in the game ''[[Uncharted 2: Among Thieves]]''.]]
[[Image:GM45M1911A1-3.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Hybrid 1911 "Gladys" fitted with a nickel plated three cut compensator - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Delta 001.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt Delta Elite - 10mm Auto]]
[[Image:SM178017.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911 Pro Series - 9mm]]
[[Image:SW108282.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Smith & Wesson SW1911 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:KimberWarrior.jpg|450px|thumb|none|Kimber Warrior - .45 ACP like the one in the show ''[[24 - Season 8|24]]''.]]
[[Image:FLX 2.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Nighthawk FLX - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:Triple_Tap_IMM_Open_pistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|This SVI 1911 - .45 ACP is almost exactly like the one used in the film ''[[Triple Tap]]''. The description on the website reads, "IMM Open pistol made of carbon steel with Titanium compensator." (Picture supplied by sviguns.com)]]
[[Image:CaptainPriceSALoaded.JPG|thumb|none|450px|Captain Price SA Loaded - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:NiteTac.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Para-Ordnance Nite-Tac - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:1911WideSpur.png|thumb|none|450px|Springfield GI 1911 A1 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:ColtM1991A1L.jpg|thumb|none|450px|Colt M1991A1 - .45 ACP]]
[[Image:M1911A1USAF.jpg|thumb|450px|none|Black Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP]]

==Video game appearances of this pistol series==

Why is it that the "Video Game appearances" tables have a column named "Passwords"? I don't think it's for passwords to unlock them, because to my knowledge very few video games actually have a password system to unlock weapons. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a "Notes" after the "Mods" section where certain pertinent but miscellaneous information can be written, such as what copyright-infringement-avoiding name it goes under in the game, or whether it is chambered in a non-standard caliber?

I'd like this cleared up. Oh, and someone needs to include a note saying that "mods" is short for "modifications/customizations for the weapon," not "downloadable modifications to the game itself."--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 06:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

:I agree. Frankly I think both the "Mods" and "Passwords" sections can go, since the latter is pointless and the former's purpose can be adequately served by "Notes". --[[User:MattyDienhoff|MattyDienhoff]] 15:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

==Colt Government Model Section==
With regard to the following sentence:

''"Aside from Colt selling the M1911A1 to the US military, the gun was also sold under the name "Colt Government Model" to the civilian market, and called the "Pre-Series 70" guns today."''

First, the Colt Government Model was introduced in 1912, and as such, it was originally in the M1911 configuration. When the U.S. Military switched to the M1911A1 configuration in the mid 1920s, Colt began manufacturing their Government Models in the M1911A1 configuration as well. So early Government Models parallel the military's M1911 configuration, while later Government Models (after the mid 1920s) parallel the military's M1911A1 configuration. Additionally, not only pre-Series 70 guns are Government Models. Series 70 and Series 80 guns are both Government Models. In fact, Colt still makes the Government Model to this day in various configurations.

With regard to the following sentence:

''"For IMFDB purposes, this can also be referred to as an M1911A1. In this manner, there is no need to list film, television, anime, video games in this section."''

It is sloppy to refer to a Colt Government Model as an M1911A1. "M1911A1" is the U.S. Military designation for a particular type of gun, and most of them were not even made by Colt (Remington Rand [the typewriter company] made most of them). I can see referring to a gun as an "M1911 type" or "M1911A1 type" if the manufacturer can't be determined, but when you simply type "M1911" or "M1911A1" you are referring to a U.S. Military contract pistol.

On top of that, the pictured gun in the Colt Government Model section is not even a "Pre-Series 70", it is a pre-enhanced Series 80 Government Model.

--[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 21:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

:So it's like how we don't call it the Beretta M9, we call it the Beretta 92FS. -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 03:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

::With the M9 vs. 92FS situation, it is next to impossible to tell the difference between the two onscreen, unless there is a closeup allowing one to read the markings. In such cases I would say, if a civilian character is using the gun, it is probably intended to be a 92F or 92FS. If a military character is using it, it is probably intended to be an M9, regardless of what the actual prop is. I would assume that most—if not all—movie and TV props are actually 92Fs or 92FSs, because I don't believe that actual M9s have ever been made available for civilian sale.

::With the M1911 or M1911A1 vs. the Colt Government Model (or other brands of 1911-type guns), it is usually possible to tell the difference onscreen without being able to read the markings. For example, the Colt Government Model does not have a lanyard loop. Most M1911A1s were parkerized, while no Government Models were parkerized. When dealing with more modern Government Models, there are even more differences. For example, starting in 1950, Government Models started coming with a full-shelf thumb safety; while all M1911[A1]s had partial-shelf thumb safeties. Also at this time, Government Models started being given a finish with polished flats and matte radiuses, while blued and Du-Lite (similar to bluing in appearance) M1911A1s had polished radiuses and brushed flats or entirely polished (depending on the manufacturer and/or time of manufacture); and of course the more common parkerized M1911A1s were simply all matte.

::Additionally, the newer Government Models as mentioned above have narrow hammers with polished sides left "in the white", and polished chamber hoods also left "in the white". Many M1911A1s had wide-spur hammers, and the ones that had narrow hammers were fully finished (no polished "in the white" sides) and they all had fully blued barrels, including the otherwise parkerized ones (no polished "in the white" chamber hoods).

::Most of the Government Models you see onscreen from the early 70s to the mid-to-late '80s were actually 9mm versions, though they were usually representing a "forty-five" onscreen. This had to do with reliable functioning with readily available 9mm blanks. Colt introduced the 9mm version of the Government Model when they introduced the Series 70 in the early 1970s, and the 9mm version of the CGM had a lowered ejection port (while the .45 ACP version still had the standard military style ejection port). With the introduction of the Series 80 Government Model in 1983, the .45 ACP version also got a lowered ejection port. No M1911[A1] had a lowered ejection port.

::I'll give an example. In the show Magnum, P.I., his gun is blued with polished flats and matte radiuses; polished "in the white" chamber hood and hammer sides, and a lowered ejection port. It is clear from looking that the gun is a Series 70 Colt Government Model chambered for 9mm (though it was always addressed as a "forty-five" in the show's dialogue); and is definitely not an M1911A1. Recently the gun came up for auction and is now in the NRA's National Firearms Museum, and it has been confirmed that that is exactly what the main prop gun was (serial # 70L33101 to be exact).

::--[[User:MaximRecoil|MaximRecoil]] 21:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

==Primary M1911 description==
Who wrote this? The historical paragraph (on the background of the M1911) implies that the M1911 was replaced by the U.S. Military AFTER Operation Desert Storm (1991) which is not true. The Beretta M92 (M9) was already approved and adopted by 1985.

Well for a period of time both the 1911 and M9 were in use by the U.S. military,therefore just because the M9 was in service does'nt mean it replaced the 1911 by that time, and for awhile soldiers actualy got to choose which weapon they prefered :o [[User:Leadback|Leadback]]
======================================
The Beretta M9 officially replaced the M1911 in 1985. They still used the M1911, but they weren't buying anymore. They simply phased them out over the years. Now there are some units in the US military that still use the M1911. The M9 is really only used by conventional military nowadays. For example, the Navy SEALs don't even use the M9 or M1911 anymore. They have the H&K MK23 Mod 0. Which is a purpose-built USP .45. I've even heard of some SEALs using the Ruger Mk. II. It's a .22 target pistol with an integrated silencer on it.

Soldiers were never given the choice to choose. They were given the M9, but many didn't like it. It was big, many could not shoot it accurately, and lots contested the effectiveness of the 9x19 round. Lots of people I work with were in the military around the time of the switch, were given the M9, hated it, and decided just to keep carrying the M1911. It wasn't until they were given an official order that they were forced to carry the M9. And even there, there were times when they went back to the M1911s the military had stored up. For example, out in the deserts. The magazines the military bought were junk, got sand in them, and jammed. The M1911 functioned perfectly. Same thing is happening over there now.

wrong. Special Operations soldiers are given their choice of a sidearm( and assault rifle). 1stSFOD-D has been using 1911s since foundation. infact Larry Vickers (Nighthawk Customs) has worked very closely with Delta Force. Nighthawk 1911s are being used by Delta. 2- the Seals in Vietnam started out with the Ruger Mk II Suppressed. and know one still used the HK MK23. it was fazed out years ago because of how bulky it is. SEALs use the Sig Sauer P226 or USPs. but that is still a generalization. because all SOF have a choice in sidearm [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==Para-Ordance==
Shouldnt these guns get their own page? Sure they are a 1911 varients, but their made by a totally different company.[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]] 00:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
:Yeah, but they're 1911 variants. This is the M1911 pistol series page, and they are 1911s. That's why they are on here. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::I would prefer the Para Ordnance series of pistols have their own page due PRIMARILY to the fact that the Paras have a whole slew of different calibers that other M1911 makes and models don't have [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 06:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

What calibers does para have that other 1911 manufactures do not have?--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 01:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

== The M in the page title ==

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the M in the page title incorrect? These are Colt 1911s (or 1911a1s, etc.), not Colt M1911s, unless referred to by US military nomenclature, just the same way that a Beretta 92f is an M9 only to the US Army and a SIG Sauer P228 is an M11 only in USAF terms. Just because it's the model of 1911 doesn't make it an M1911, any more than a '67 Shelby GT500 is an M67 Shelby GT500.[[User:YourMessageHere|YourMessageHere]] 08:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
::No. The Colt pistol was formally adopted by the Army on March 29, 1911, thus gaining its designation, M1911 (Model of 1911). Only examples or prototypes prior to the year 1911 would NOT have the M designation (which is extremely rare). Between the years of 1907 and 1910 the Colt pistol was constantly being modified and re-designed to win the Army's trials for adoption of a new handgun. The gun was only mass produced AFTER winning the Army's pistol trials. The Beretta 92FS was already famous world wide and was commercially available as the 92F/FS for YEARS before the Army adopted it. Every 1911 design came AFTER the M1911 (aka Model of 1911) so it is the correct nomenclature. [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]] 07:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Using "1911" to refer to any and all pistols based on the M1911 design has only been popular for about fifteen years. Prior to that, the vast majority of such pistols were Colts, and were usually called "Colt .45s", even if they were pistols made by wartime contractors like Remington Rand. Those commercial guns that weren't made by Colt, as made by Vega, Randall, Federal Ordnance, Essex, etc., were called "clones", as they were generally close copies of the Colt. When makers started adding previously "custom" features to production-line guns, and branching into areas that Colt hadn't, a new name was needed, and "1911" became popular. The problem that I have with the various names on the site is the mixing of military and commercial designations; a gun cannot be a "M1911A1 Government Model", as M1911A1 is a military designation, and Government Model is what Colt has always called the civilian version of the "M" military pistols. Colt has made M1911s (1912-circa 1924), M1911A1s (circa 1926-1945), and Government Models (1912-date), but you can't mix or combine those names without confusing the issue.

==Caliber question==
I thought I would ask permission before making this change considering how important this article is: in the specifications category the caliber is listed solely as .45 ACP. I was wondering whether or not that should be changed to include .380 ACP, .38 Super, 9mm, and .40 S&W?
:-[[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]]

No, since the ORIGINAL Colt M1911 is .45 ACP Caliber, it should stay like that, since copies of the M1911 maybe have different calibers those should be put on the "copy" section

Agreed --[[PunisherDave]]

==M1991 Series==
I was wondering: what exactly is the difference between the 1911 series and the 1991 series? -[[User:Gunman69|Gunman69]] 17:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Colt introduced (announced) the M1991A1 in 1991 as a sort of economy version of the Government Model, resembling the military M1911A1, and with the serial numbers picking up where the military gun left off after WWII. The gun was made in that form until about 2003, at which time the finish was changed to polished blue rather than matte blue, and the black rubber grips replaced with checkered wood.
:I heard a guy explain on youtube that 1991 got "extra safety feature" which blocked firing pin movement entirely when trigger was not pressed; allegedly this modification appeared after a incident involving police officer accidentally killing suspect while snapping him with the gun. However, this modification somehow managed to eject firing pin from the slide during decocking so only few people liked it --[[User:Cover72|Cover72]] 21:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==Terminator 2==
It was my understanding that the 1911 used in the film was a custom Colt frame with a fitted Detonic slide. Was it a combatmaster slide? [[Special:Contributions/65.29.239.251|65.29.239.251]] 09:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

== blank firers / K911 ==

I've added/moved blank firing Kimar 911 to the bottom of page as told by MoviePropMaster2008 ''("Non-firing replicas of the M1911 belong on the bottom of the M1911 page. Thanks.")'' 
But I wonder, shouldn't there be an entire sub-category of blank firers (with K911 being sub-section of this) in order to distinguish blanks from the real ones? It ''might'' look confusing this way. And also, I made multiple photos of K911 for what I thought would be it's page here including disassembled weapon photo, so perhaps these unused ones might be deleted? --[[User:Cover72|Cover72]] 21:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==Strayer Voigt Infinity ==
This gun is using a frame from STI, they call that frame the 2011, it's double stacked. And is made from steel and polymer.

:are Strayer Voigt Infinity custom built guns? or just have alot of models? Rex095

The modular frames look exactly like those used by STI. http://www.sviguns.com
Don't know if they collaborate or something. They (SVI) have more optional grips than STI.

Both companies reside in Texas.
::Read up: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strayer_Voigt_Inc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strayer_Voigt_Inc]

Does anyone know the mag cap for a Strayer Voigt Infinity in 45acp? - captain snikt

==Police service pistols==

Before the 90s were American Police ever issued the M1911, or were they're only given to the FBI and SWAT team?

- Some regular state/county/municipal departments might have used a 1911 as a standard duty-weapon before semiautos came into heavy use following the eighties, but I imagine that's a very low number. I certainly don't know of any specific departments myself offhand. Not that many departments use 'em much today. As a 1911 generally was considered a large pistol with a fairly powerful round it wasn't considered easy to use and handle by regular officers. Same general reason why departments in older times stuck with .38s over .357s - The .357 was generally considered too powerful for standard-duty officers. As such, most police departments used 9mms when they first went to automatics in the eighties as there were few semiauto calibers with lower recoil impulse and power at the time than .45ACP.

Some other police units might have used 1911s when it suited them - Homicide detectives in our county's police dept. carried 1911 type pistols, though I don't think that was the county's standard sidearm for uniformed officers. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 02:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

:There's another reason, besides caliber, that the 1911 wouldn't have been too popular in the old days - it's a single-action. Before DA-only became more acceptable (i.e. Glocks), most LE departments preferred handguns that were SA/DA. Almost all police revolvers used prior to the 1980s, like the S&W Model 15 and 19, or the Colt Python, were single- or double-action. This bias continued into the 1980s when a lot of departments started adopting the Beretta 92F and the 3rd Generation Smith & Wesson autos. Now that Glocks have been around long enough, DA-only is finally becoming the standard. But SA-only is pretty much a no-go to any LE agency, and that's the way it was even before the 1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 02:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't Glocks SA-only? The firing pin is cocked by cambering a round?

Would a Smith and Wesson Model 39 or 639 or Colt Commander be more acceptable for police use back then?

- To MT, that's a good point as well. SA weapons do require a lot of training and familiarity to operate effectively and safely, and as such, again, weren't considered practical for regular police officers either. Very good to point out. If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the main reasons why the 1911 fell out of favor in the Armed Forces as well - the fact they required extensive training and familiarity to use and carry safely. DA weapons are easier to train and operate with. Very true.

As for the Glock question, no, Glocks are actually DA only.

As for actions - In a Single-Action (SA) firearm, the hammer must be manually cocked to a firing position prior to pulling the trigger. Just like revolvers of the old west. Double action firearms will both cock and release the hammer when the trigger is pulled. SA/DA firearms use double-action by default, but feature an externally accessible hammer to allow single-action style firing (by cocking the hammer back and then pulling the trigger). Modern revolvers are perhaps the simplest examples of this.

DAO (Double-Action-Only) firearms only fire by double-action as they don't have an accessible hammer for single-action cocking. Such as Glock and various other semiauto pistols.

So if you have empty casing in the chamber, an pull the trigger several times, you would hear a loud click every time because the firing pin would be cocked every time? That's what happens in a DAO gun. If not, it's a SAO.

And on the last question, yes the Smith 39/59 pistols were used by police departments back then. Illinois State Police used the 59 back in the 60s/70s if I remember my Jane's Gun Recognition book correctly. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 05:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Correction, Glocks are not DAO. They fire from a half-cocked position. When you dry fire the gun, the hammer falls and must be recocked by racking the slide, it does not cock by double action springs. That's why the have a slightly heavy trigger pull, they are half cocked, and are brought to full cock and dropped by pulling the trigger. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::: Bah, how did I miss that.. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

i thought glocks were striker-fired?

I think I read that Tacoma, WA police carry 1911s as standard issue service weapons.

==Versus modern pistols==

One thing I've noticed about this pistol is that almost everyone loves it, as though it were the best, most versatile handgun ever made. But really, what makes this thing, almost 100 years old now, any better than any modern pistols? Really, modern pistols can fire the same rounds, bigger clips, better design, picatinny rails, etc.--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 21:54, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Familiarity, accuracy, ease of getting parts, feel, simplicity (yes I know there are designs that are simpler, but for what this pistol is, it is simple), many different makes and models of the 1911, modularity, traditionalism. There are many makes and models of the 1911 style that have the same features as many modern "wonder guns". Want more ammo? Get a Para Ord P14, ditto for DA, and DA/SA. Want a 9mm/ 10mm/ etc? there are many types of 1911 platform pistols ranging from .22lr to .44 Magnum. A quote I heard about the 1911 a few years ago is "It's like a '32 Ford Hotrod, its cheap, reliable, powerful, fun, and is easy to make it your own. Just don't think you'll get much mileage out of a tank of gas." Now tell me can you put custom grips, barrels, sights, slides, frames, triggers, hammers, finishes, safeties, slide releases magazines, etc etc etc on a Glock, XD, SIG, Beretta, etc? Maby a few of those, but at what price, and can you do it all? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

: ''Really, modern pistols can fire the same rounds, bigger clips, better design, picatinny rails, etc.''

- Funny, several pistols I can think of that fit that criteria are little more than updated 1911 pistols. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 20:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

"bigger clips"
: Fail. I believe you meant Magazines. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 21:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
ya Unless your talkin about a Mauser broomhandle (which you're not) I would prefer if you said magazine instead of clip

::Actually, that's another thing I'm questioning. Really, what is the difference between the detaachable box magazines and clips? I mean, clips hold bullets for easy loading, right? SO wouldn't modern detachable magazines be classified as clips too?--[[User:Zblayde|Zblayde]] 20:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Simplest way I can put this - a clip loads a magazine. The magazine is what the gun feeds from - NOT THE CLIP. It just so happens that on some guns, the magazine is affixed to the weapon (the M1 Garand and the Mauser, for example). Thus, users have to use clips to reload them. On, say, a M1911 or an M16, the magazine falls out, thus allowing the user to swap in a new one when needed. A magazine could hold a clip, if so designed...but that particular road is one-way only. --[[User:Clutch|Clutch]] 20:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

::The "clip vs. magazine" distinction is something that really needs to be clarified, and one of the reasons why I asked for the "general information" section in the first place. Hopefully someone can make a good article there showing the various type of bullet clips and why they should not be confused with magazines. By the way, revolvers when not loaded manually use bullet clips. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 05:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

considering that this page is dedicated to the 1911 which is generally made in .45 does anyone else find it somewhat stupid that our military and most police departments are using handguns that have been known for their lack of stopping power. there are better handguns out there that hold a generous amount of .45 ammunition anyway. for example the Nighthawk FLX holds 12-14. the HK USP/HK45, and the Infinity handgun line are double stacked. and even if most .45s hold 7-10 isnt that enough in most scenarios. 7 .45 slugs does the work of at least 20. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 00:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Its the same reason that police used the .38 Special for so many years even after the .357 came out. Politics, logistics, ability to handle the round, etc etc... -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

:With regard to caliber, police need rounds that can penetrate car bodies, doors, walls, etc. .45 rounds are not known for penetration. Also, while the .45 round is more effective against soft tissue than 9mm and .40 S&W rounds, anyone who tries to claim that 7 .45 rounds can do the work of 20 9mm or .40 rounds is completely dillusional. Watch ballistic test videos. A .45 slug entering the body does more damage than a 9mm round entering the body. If you try to claim that one .45 wound is more damaging than 2 9mm wounds with any decent grouping than you clearly have no understanding of physics or human anatomy.

But the fact remains with a 9mm you dont want him dead in the half hour it will take for him to bleed out. you want him dead NOW. with the .45 hes going to feel it. he aint gunna get back up. with the 9mm he might just keep firing.
:Depending on shot placement. A 9mm slug to the heart or any of the major arteries surrounding it will cause death within several seconds. The same is true of a shot to most areas of the skull. .45 does have increased lethality over 9mm, but that degree of superiority has been greatly exaggerated.

==Variants NOT listed with any film/TV/game appearances==

- I've taken it upon myself to remove several listed variants that had no list of anything that they've appeared in. Guns posted that didn't say they were in anything - Not one movie, TV show episode, video game, nothing. A couple of which I don't think have appeared on anything and seem to have been put up just for the hell of it.

Now I know we have a lot of 1911 variants on the page, but the page is not intended to show/describe ''every'' variant of 1911 ever made, but only those ''that have actually appeared in something'', as quoted by some of the admins. I just find it a bit annoying to have to scroll down the page and see numerous 1911 pistols that have nothing listed under them (Again, with some looking like they were just added for the sake of being there), and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Anyway, clearing said sections out now. If it seems like an unusual or otherwise noteworthy variant, I'll add it to the 'additional variants' section below. Bottom-line, if it ain't actually been in anything, ''don't add it'', no matter how cool it is or whatever. If it has been in something, then next time, don't half-ass - If you're going to bother with the effort of putting it up in the first place, do it 100% and say what it's appeared in. Thanks. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

==Kimber==
in the Kimber Warrior section it is listed as "Warrior II", which is wrong, the Warrior is built to full military specs and never got the "II" desinated saftey system...so it is just a Warrior because kimber only puts the II on the models they put their special saftey on.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 19:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

==Controversy igniter==
I am fully aware that what I am about to say will probably ignite the greatest firestorm of controversy this site has seen in a while. I have fired several 1911 pistols and found them to be a good, solid design. That said, it doesn’t change the fact that I think this is undoubtedly the most overrated firearm in history. Throughout the entire gun community there is the consensus that this is the absolute greatest thing ever conceived by the mind of man and anyone who says anything different is a blasphemer. Again, I am not saying it is a bad pistol, I just don’t think it is best (I won’t say what my top choice is for fear of causing even more indignation to come my way). Though even if it were the undisputed best pistol design around, I still don’t think it would be so significantly greater than other designs as to warrant being the object of the worship and masturbatory fantasies of every gun enthusiast in the world as it currently is. That’s my two cents, I await the fallout.

:I smell a troll.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 17:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd say he's not because he seems to explain his point. At least his reasoning isn't 'this gun sukzz' [[User:BeardedHoplite|BeardedHoplite]] 17:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

:My main reasoning is that the weapons are predominately single action only, which necessitates that they either be carried condition three (which makes the pistol slow to bring into action), or condition one (which many consider unsafe). The double/single action and double action only systems have become omnipresent in most modern combat pistols for good reason. Additionally, while a generally reliable design, many other pistols have surpassed 1911 models in ruggedness and reliability. Another thing that I find odd is the vast variety of weapons that are claimed to be “1911s.” For instance, I have seen subcompact, double action only, double-column “1911s” in many calibers other than .45acp. At this point the only common feature between these weapons and the original Colt 1911 design are a loose aesthetic resemblance. The internal mechanisms maybe similar as well, but many other pistols share a far greater functional similarity to 1911s yet do not bear the moniker. At what point does a gun cease being a “1911” and become something simply trying to cash in on a famous name sake?

It is human nature to emulate successful designs in the hopes of getting a piece of that pie, especially in the modern business world. Less-refined terms for this behaviour include "jumping on the bandwagon" or "riding a gravy train." It's nothing new now in the firearms industry, what with all the AR-15 variants, Glock knock-offs, and (of course) countless "1911-type" pistols around. What defines a "1911-type" pistol is really matter of personal preference.

I would, however, agree that it's foolish to fetishize a type of firearm or a firearms manufacturer just because of its track record or Public Relations budget. There is no such thing as the "perfect" weapon in the real world--every design involves tradeoffs, and that's even before you include the "human factor." Designs can always be improved. What matters most is what you can use the most effectively in a consistent manner. And if you can't, then you ought to get yourself another weapon or train more.

Speaking of "best pistol ever," I remember how H&K tried to label their 4.6x30mm pistol as "the Ultimate Combat Pistol," but it got unceremoniously cancelled, because of "inadequate ballistics in a handgun format." So much for "Ultimate Combat Pistol"--now it joins the legions of "Useless Cancelled Pistols" that came before it. Perhaps it could have had a chance if it were a machine pistol instead, dubbed the "MP7 UltraComPact," in essence an MP7 PDW in handgun format. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 00:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

:What I would like to know is what is it about the 1911 that supposedly makes it the best. I've heard people say it is the greatest pistol ever for more than a decade yet never explain what ''specific'' features or advantages it has that make it so good.

You should head on over to the forum and ask that question: "What makes the M1911 pistol so great compared to everything else, and when does an M1911 stop being one and start being a pistol just pretending to be one?" I'm sure there are more people there who could answer your questions better than what you could get here. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 22:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

What makes the 1911 the "best"? There are many reasons for the following it has. I am of course referring to the original 1911A1 model, not the double stack nor double action variants. For one, the single action trigger is extremely easy to train with and use by a lot of people. Second, it has redundant safety systems in place. Even with the manual safety off, it will not fire unless the grip safety is fully pressed, though this safety system is seen by a few as a con of the design. Third, it utilized a single stack design. That coupled with the angle of the grip is a very comfortable for a majority of the people. The degree of the grip angle was chosen because, for a lot of people, it is a natural point meaning that one could close ones eyes and bring the pistol up and have it pointing directly at the target. Fourth, it fired the .45 ACP. The .45ACP is a proven manstopper especially when compared to the other rounds utilized at the time of its adoption and until the development of reliable hollow point designs. Lastly, I would argue that compared to many other designs, such as the Mauser C96, Luger,etc..., the 1911 was easily field strip as the pieces of the pistol were designed to aid in the stripping down of the firearm. Compared to todays plethora of firearms, the 1911 is no longer the only pistol to chamber effective rounds or reliability. Why is it still popular then? Because some people still favor the 1911 design. Overrated, I don't think so. There is a reason why it is still chosen over other designs. Is it the end-all-be-all of pistol design? No, I would say it isn't. Anyway, from everything I've read, personal experience, and research that is what I have come up with. [[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 21:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Everything you have described establishes that the gun is a good design, perhaps the best gun around when it first came out, but does not explain it's enduring following. The grip may be confortable for many people, but that is far too subjective to explain why so many people (with so many different hand sizes) still favor this gun. It's single stack magazine make it a confortable target and practical concealed carry weapon, but the limited capacity it offers can be a death trap in a combat weapon (which many still claim the 1911 is the quintessential example of). The .45 ACP is a great round against soft targets, but does not offer very good penetration or long distance acuracy. And with the isistance on reliable "Soldier Proof" weapons in most of today's militaries, many modern pistols are more reliable and easier to strip than the original 1911s. I don't deny that the 1911 was most likely the best pistol in the world when it came out and for a few decades after, but I don't think it still warrents that praise anymore, yet almost every gun Television show, magazine, website, etc. seems to constantly proclaim its supremacy.

To answer your first point. The single stack, thin handgrip is easily usable by people of differing handtypes. You say its subjective but isn't how something feels in someones hand subjective? For example, the M9/Beretta 92FS has a thick grip. Bigger hands have no problem with the grip but smaller hands do. The slim 1911 grip can be used by big hands or little hands. The grip angle is something else that many people find comfortable. You second point that you made was the single stack "death trap". You say that the single stack is a liability. But capacity isn't everything. 7+ rounds of .45 ACP is good. The .45ACP has a well known reputation for one shot stops. The 9mm of the Beretta 92 or Glock 17 does not have that reputation. As for the .45ACP, it is not meant to penetrate body armor, neither is the standard 9mm, but it is accurate over long distances. There are very few pistol rounds that are meant to penetrate body armor of vehicle armor, which is what I think that you are getting at. If you draw a pistol in a combat zone, you are already in deep trouble or in a position where a high capacity is not needed, i.e. MP's. Anyway, a pistol is not meant to be accurate at long distances so the point is moot. As for the "Soldier Proof" weapons, that is just a cheap way out of training soldiers correctly, as they did with the A2 model of the M16. A milspec 1911 is just as reliable as newer designs. One such argument is that the 1911 was only tested for 6000 rounds with no failure before cleaning while Glock for example is tested at 30,000 rounds. What soldier won't clean his sidearm after 6000 rounds? What battle involves firing 6000 rounds out of a pistol? If you can't see why the 1911 design is praised and still being used then I can't help any further. The 1911 design has many good points that apparently many people still find better than other designs, and many still find the 1911 a proven and effective design.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 22:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Apparently I wasn't clear when I rebutted you last time. The single stack is confortable for people with small hands yes. However, people with larger hands, and even some small handed people, have no problem with thicker grips and so the capacity limiting single stack serves no purpose. The grip angle is a completely subjective feature and so it is imposible to argue that one style is better than another. What matters more is simply what one is used to. You are right that 7-9 rounds of ammunition and 6000 rounds before cleaning is more than adequate for most applications, however my point wasn't that the 1911 is bad (it is a good weapon) but simply that there are better guns out their. 7 or 8 rounds may be enough for most encounters, but having 12-17 rounds and being able to fire 30,000+ rounds before cleaning is an advantage, whether or not one will utalize those features often. Also, when I referenced penetration I had things like doors, walls, and car bodies in mind, not armor. The .38 Super cartridge was specifically developed because the .45 could not penetrate car bodies effectively. Your previous post all focuses on arguing that the 1911 is an ''adequate'' combat pistol which I completely agree with. My whole point is that the features you mentioned ''do not make it the best pistol around.'' When I first began this conversation I stated that the 1911 is not a bad gun, simply that with all the pistol designs that have emerged in the past century it is no longer the greatest pistol in the world, yet nearly everyone in the gun community (yourself clearly included) still claim it is for no other reason than people like its grip (which is subjective), its caliber (which is used in many much modern modern firearms), and its history (which can easily make it a favorite gun but can not be used as justification for it being the best).

You were arguing the design flaws but it is the design that is one of the big reasons it has such a following. Since you are arguing one view against the other. Why a lot of people think that it is the best. The design is one reason, history is another, the round it fires is yet another reason. I actually don't think it is the best I was merely stating the reasons that it is popular and why people say it is the best. I like the Beretta 92fs for its grip and certain design attributes and the Glock 21sf for different reasons. Would I object to using the 1911 in combat. No. Would I use the Beretta 92fs in combat with FMJ ammo? Not if I didn't have to. With HP ammo, I wouldn't hesitate to use the Beretta. But even your view of other designs being better is subjective. If a pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc...is reliable and fires a moderately effective round then it is a good design. What makes it the best is subjective as far as it goes. What one pistol may be best at is what makes it worst at something else. There is no way to objectively define the "best" just what is better than something else.[[User:GaBoy45|GaBoy45]] 00:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

:I agree. I don't have any gun in mind that I think is indisputably better than all others. The features I pointed out I did so to demonstrate that in certain aspects the 1911 is inferior to other disigns, not that said other designs are the perfect weapon. Every design is a give and take of different features. Because of this, my main complaint was a pervaisive belief that the 1911 is unquestioningly the greatest gun ever (I have heard that phrase Verbatim in many issues of Guns & Ammo). Is it better in some aspects than double-collumn, double-action 9mm pistols? Yes. Is it better across the board? Absolutly not. I apologize if at any point I have come across as confrontational, it is just that I have heard so many people assert the 1911's complete supremacy so many times that it has really gotten on my nerves and I wanted to know what others thought.

Google "1911"...then google any other gun...now tell me which one has the most varieties...which one has the most after market parts and pieces for the specialist. Which one has the most surplus parts. Its so popular and so famous because if you wanted to you could make one look like no other one or you could make it look like that one in your favorite movie. Not only that but all the diffrent calibers from 45cal to the awesome and unbeatable 10mm. Plus they are sexy as hell. To sum up you can basically have a beautiful, functional, all steel combat pistol in your choice of caliber and its going to feel like a dream in your hands.--[[User:Spades of Columbia|Spades of Columbia]] 00:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

:The madness of crowds surely knows few bounds--just look at how the various bottled water companies manage to make a killing selling what is essentially tap water, because people will do often do things just because enough other people tell them it's a good idea. Then again, I suppose the "cult following" that some pistol-types have over others is due in part to the following facts:

:*Pistols are rarely if ever primary combat weapons anymore, with the exception of law enforcement.
:*Few people who routinely carry pistols have to regularly use them in gun battles against opponents who are earnestly trying to kill them.

:Therefore there aren't many occasions for most pistol-carriers to test their assumptions in the most revealing field of all--life-or-death situations. So depending on your circumstances you can go a lifetime without ever putting the hype in the harsh light of real return-fire. I'd bet on the M1911-type (the "pure" single-stack .45 ACP M1911s) pistols selling so much mostly because of its hype and history, and that it is, at its heart, a serviceable (though hardly optimal) weapon. Given how many clones there are, however, I really must wonder what would have happened had Colt become the sole copyright holder for this pistol type--would we see more innovation that way, or just countless clones of some other pistol type? Perhaps a more revealing, specific question would be "How does the M1911 platform compare to the Glock platform or CZ-75 platform?" That could work because all three are successful pistol types offered in multiple calibers, including 9x19mm, .45 ACP, and 10mm Auto.

:Bottom line? The "pure" M1911 works, but we can certainly do better. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 04:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

::Exactly

Ok, well answer me this then. Why if the 1911 is all hype and legend does MEUSOC still issue 1911s? Why does Delta give out a stipend to have an operator buy his own custom 1911? Why does the FBI HRT use 1911s? and LAPD SWAT? and so many other groups that use pistols? The reasons the wonder 9s came into popularity are lower recoil (marginal), size (marginal) higher capacity (less training in marksmanship), weight (long since gone by the wayside), to match ammo with other NATO countries (Military), and hype/ cool factor (civilian). The 1911 has served admirably (in one capacity or another) with few major changes to the platform for almost 100 years. The Beretta, Glock, CZ-75, etc. have been redesigned and "improved" since they came out just to try and match the 1911s in popularity, reliability, etc.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 17:30, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

:Sure thing. How many of these operators you mentioned fulfill the conditions I mentioned above, namely that they regularly use pistols as their primary combat weapons instead of SMGs/PDWs/Rifles and often engage in gunfights with earnest, aware opponents? And other combat platforms for the .45 ACP won out, such as the Mk. 23 SOCOM pistol which won out over Colt's version. The "improved" Beretta, Glock, CZ-75 you mentioned have done so to fit consumer demand and market competition, but national armed forces aren't that commercial and competitive most of the time because of how many contracts and vested interests are running the show. I simply said that the "Pure" M1911 platform works when used, but it can be improved, otherwise the Mk.23 SOCOM wouldn't have won the OHWS program. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 02:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

::A lot of Special Forces don't even use the Mk. 23 due to its bulky and awkward size. Many Navy SEALs opt to use 9mm SIG-Sauer Pistols

H&K won the competition because they strictly adhered to all of the requirements (some of which were asinine), and they put in the best bid. When USSOCOM received the Mk. 23 they got exactly what they asked for but not what they had actually wanted. The SEALS who used it complained about how it was too big, heavy, and its cons outweighed its pros. They tried to pawn them off on the ARMY but no one there would touch them, so most of them went back to H&K. As with all things military, big brass does not listen to the guys who actually have to use the equipment until its too late.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 06:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I would like to toss my thoughts into the mix. Being a Brit getting a hold of a real firearm is harder than getting away with stealing the Popes hat, but I am an avid airsofter and I have held and fired many different types of airsoft pistols ranging from HK USPs, to Glocks, to Berettas, to SIGs. But I still go back to my 1911s to which I have 2 (I'm awaiting delivery of a third). I don't have tiny hands but I don't have big bear hands and the 1911 design feels right in my hands. I use a weaver stance and the 1911 is the best pistol for hand placement in that stance, I had an issue with the Beretta that sometimes my thumb could slip onto the slide locking mechinism and prevent slide lock. With Glocks they felt too top heavy for me, maybe it's how the airsoft Glocks are designed and it's not like that on the Real steel. I used a SIG for quite a while as that felt pretty good, but as soon as I picked up a 1911 I needed one. After a little practice I can draw, remove the safety and bring the pistol up to the target in a little under 2 seconds. Why do I like the 1911 so much? It's all about the placement, the safety is right by your thumb so when you draw it you can use one motion to bring the pistol up and deactivate the safety. I found the Beretta to be a bit of a fumbling job deactivating the safety mid draw. Why the 1911 design is still praised isn't down to some cult following, it's down to simple ergonomics, it looks great, the functionality is great, the placement of everything on the pistol is perfect. I saw someone post that they would rather be able to fire 30,000 shots and not have to clean their pistol rather than 6000. I don't know about you but if I only fired off one shot from my pistol in a battle I would still clean it to make sure nothing is going to cause a problem next time. Better to be safe than sorry. --[[User:Cool-breeze|Cool-breeze]] 17:19, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

== Ballester-Molina ==

The Ballester-Molina should not be included in the 1911 page. It's not a 1911, only the mags and barrel interchange. Internally it's based on the Star Model A, which has significant differences from the 1911 in terms of lockwork. Unless anyone objects I'm going to create a separate page for it. - [[User:Nyles|Nyles]]

== Link share ==

Hello there,

This is a question for the webmaster/admin here at www.imfdb.org.

Can I use part of the information from this blog post right above if I give a link back to your site?

Thanks,
Daniel

== Dreamworks Animation ==

When are you guys going to add animated films from Dreamworks like Monsters vs. Aliens and Megamind, because they have guns used by police and the military.

Just because there are guns in it doesn't mean it gets a page here. Are they recognisable as real guns, or are they stylised ones? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 09:58, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

They are real guns in the animated films, like in Monsters vs Aliens, the soldiers used some M16 rifles to shoot at the alien, and in Megamind, the police uses rifles and pistols on aiming the villain, who is walking.

OK, I'm going to assume that you haven't read the [[Rules, Standards and Principles]] page, most notably [[Rules, Standards and Principles#Anime: Rules & Restrictions|this section]]. Read that, then check back. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 19:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

But wait, why do we have video game pages then? Firearms in them barely resemble real ones --[[User:Jackbel|Jackbel]] 19:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok sorry, no big deal, lets not add cartoons yet, because they have to wait.

:@Jackbel. Because in video games you can clearly identify the guns, and no the good ones do not just 'barely resemble real ones.' As a video game person you should know this, unless Australia has weird rules about depicting guns in video games. The reason cartoons are generally not allowed is because unlike anime, most cartoons have a generic silouette of a 'gun' while most animes have enough detail to be able to determine what guns was used. Think [[Ghost in the Shell]] or [[Cowboy Bebop]].--[[User:Gunkatas|Gunkatas]] 13:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

==.45 Blanks==

I've read a lot here that .45 blanks used to be unreliable. I was wondering when they started to become a bit more reliable and why they were unreliable? I can't find that anywhere.

I thought it wasn't really the blanks being unreliable so much as it just being easier to blank-convert a 9mm than a .45. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 10:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

.45 pistols require more recoil force to cycle their actions than 9mms. Since blank rounds have virtually no recoil, .45s are much harder to convert to use blanks.

Ah right. Is there some new way of converting them now because I've started to notice that in recent years there have been a lot of films using .45 ACP versions of pistols that are also chambered in 9mm. Die Hard 4.0 for example, McClane as a P220 in .45 ACP. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 17:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
:Is it explicitly stated that the prop gun was chambered in .45? [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 21:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
::''"Is it explicitly stated that the prop gun was chambered in .45"'' We have a pic of the actual screen used gun and is listed as .45 ACP. I think all newer P220s are chambered in .45, only some of the older ones were chambered in 9mm and .38 Super. Also the .45 being unreliable with blanks. I don't think it encompassed all .45 chambered pistols. I think it was only in the 1911 platform. With the 9mm being a much smaller blank and having the large ejection port made for the .45 it was easier to eject them.--[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 22:09, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:SIGP220R LiveFreeDieHard.jpg|thumb|none|500px|SIG-Sauer P220R - .45 ACP. This is the screen used gun in the film and was carried and fired by ''[[Bruce Willis]]''.]]
::: Just checking. Especially after the whole issue with the Glocks. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 23:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Long (and detailed!)story short. For a 1911 to fire blanks reliably you must first drill and tap the barrel for a blank adapter, then taper the barrel hood, then grind off the locking lugs, and remove the barrel linkage. Once that is done, the testing for a reliable adapter and blank combo ensues (you may or may not need to enlarge the ejection port too). I figure its pretty much the same with other pistols...-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a very complex process. I'm assuming if you do that well though the 1911 will cycle blanks as well as 9mm blanks. --[[User:Cool-breeze|cool-breeze]] 01:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I read an article in a gun magazine a few years back about blanks and it said that it comes down to the casings used. According to the article, blanks are made from rifle brass because it has to be long enough to be crimped and still be long enough to be the length of a real cartridge. The problem with .45 acp ammo is that until recently there was no rifle brass in .45 diameter that could be used for blanks. I remember reading back when "Miami Vice" was on that Timothy La France had brass custom manufactured in .45 for blanks. -- David, 3 December 2010 (well, its the 3rd where I live)

==Laseraim Series III?==

So what is this thing?
[[Image:LaserAimSeriesIIIPistol.jpg|thumb|none|450px|LaserAim Series III Pistol - .45 ACP]]
It looks more like a CZ derivative than a 1911 derivative to me... Alot like a mashup of CZ, S&W, Sig, STI, etc..-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 06:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
:It draws a little from the S&W series (namely the safety) and CZ-75 (in terms of grip shape), but technically it is a M1911 derivative, they just didn't make many of them.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 07:15, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Used to see these in tv shows during the late 80s. the later model was the first pistol I ever saw with an integral accessory rail on the dust cover, although that was in a catalog. David. 11 December 2010
:::Dust cover? What are you talking about? [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]]
I don't know what else to call it, it is the part of the frame extending in front of the trigger guard. I have seen it, in print referred to as a dust cover. David.

::THIS Laseraim was photographed for the [[Haunted (2002)]] page since it was used in an episode. If you guys read the Haunted (2002) page, for which this IMAGE was originally shot for, the description says: '''Laser Aim was yet another manufacturer who built ported .45 ACP pistol based on the original M1911 design, but incorporating elements of the BHP and the CZ-75 into a new design. The unique feature of the Laser Aim was a hole cut out of the trigger guard ahead of the trigger to mount a laser. Since the production ended for this pistol, smaller lasers with better battery life have been invented. By the late 1990s LaserAim had gone out of business and had sold their patents to AMT. ''' Hope this sheds some light on the piece. It is a new weapon influenced purportedly by M1911, BHP and CZ designs. :) [[User:MoviePropMaster2008|MoviePropMaster2008]]

Ah, that explains it. Could have saved myself about 2 hrs of google searching if I'd looked up the image uses hah.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 23:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

== MEU(SOC) Pistol... ==
...has been given a new designation, ''M45''. [http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/24/m45-close-quarters-combat-pistol/] [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 02:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

We also need a better image for it, but I can't find one I can't be sure isn't an Airsoft gun. [[User:The Wierd It|The Wierd It]] 19:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The big problem is there is no single model that is the M45/ MEUSOC Pistol. The "M-45s" in service are a mix and match of Kimbers, Springfields, Colts, etc. The "M-45" is a set of specs that any pistols built for MEUSOC have to comply with. There are SOME retrofitted M1911A1 pistols that were done by USMC Armorers at Quantico, but they are going to be near impossible to differentiate from the M1911A1 they were built from.
Here's a good thread from AR15.com (dear lord its hard to say that haha) about the M-45 MEUSOC pistol variants.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=49&t=86667
-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 08:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Black Hawk Down

2011-02-01T04:31:12Z

Ranger01: /* Nelson's M60 */

== Hoot's "M4" ==
I think the article should be amended to only mention the weapon seen on Hoot's person when he's confronted by Capt. Steele during chow time. The weapon he's holding in the screengrab of him being picked up by Wolcott and the Delta guys is the same M727 he uses in the rest of the film. --[[Special:Contributions/131.216.48.250|131.216.48.250]] 16:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the carbine Sanderson handed him had the knobs signifying a detachable carry handle. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::Pretty damn sure. The front corner of that carry handle in the screencaps is too thin to be from an M4's carry handle. Definitely the mark of an A2 upper's carry handle as seen on M727s--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

== This probably isn't very important, but... ==
I went through and corrected the abbreviated ranks. Most of them were in Marine Corps form as opposed to Army form (ex., SSgt vs SSG). Like I said, probably not worth mentioning, but it's a little detail that was bugging me. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

== Weapon used by delta force ==

M4 was issued in 1994 before the battle which took place in 1993 ...the weapon seen in the movie and used by Delta operators was CAR-15

: If you'll look at the upper reciever and carry handle/rear-sight assembly, you'll see they match the [[M16 rifle series#M16A2 Rifle|M16A2]]-style of the early-model M4 carbine as shown in the picture above the screenshots. The CAR-15 (also known as the [[M16 rifle series#Colt Commando Carbine|Colt Commando]]) used the recievers and carry handle/rear sight assembly of the [[M16 rifle series#M16A1 Rifle|M16A1]]. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, the stock is wrong for the CAR15...its an M4
:How is the stock "wrong"? And no M4 has the flash suppressor of the Car-15 [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Isn't it more likely that Randy Shughart was actually carrying a Springfield M21 rather than the M14?
:No, he was carrying a M14 during the actual battle and it is in his Medal of Honor citation. So its definitely a M14.
::Do you happen to have a link to his MoH citation? The book accounted that Shughart used an M21. --''[[User:Blemo|Blemo]] 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
:::To Blemo - I've got the book in my lap. Page 208, and I quote, "They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip." Right there in black and white. --[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
:Your point about the issue date of the M4 flies in the face of the logic that "IT'S A MOVIE".-protoAuthor 01:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
:Your point about "It's a movie" is in the face of the logic that we shouldn't use our brains and common sense. It's like watching a 1920s movie and seeing someone riding into a scene with a 1970 Mustang. Would you use the "It's a movie" logic there? What about a WWII movie and you see an F-18 shooting sidewinders at a Japanese Zero? The point of this site is so that we do point of the little details. It's like in IMDB where it points out which movie a certain actor has been in and what his role is. The same here on this side except you replace "Actor" with "pick a gun". Accuracy is the whole point. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]
:My point was, movies don't get things 100% correct.-protoAuthor 03:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

:Sometimes. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

== Mistake? ==
There's a scene in the movie (1:37:53) where Yurek, Nelson and Twombly are about to rejoin the other Rangers at the Black Hawk crash site. While Yurek is on the radio to Eversmann (Josh Hartnett's character) he grabs a mag out of a Type 47 that a dead Somali soldier is still holding. Since the Rangers are all carrying 5.56 NATO M4A2s and FN Minimis, what would be the point of grabbing a 7.62mm mag? Seems like an odd oversight considering the camera kinda focuses on him taking the mag, and they've worked quite hard to maintain accuracy and detail in the film. Any ideas? Am I missing something? [[User:DamageW|DamageW]] 06:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:What the hell is a Type 47?[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 15:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::i dont know, but they did that so the weapon was useless for someone to pick up and use. He probaly just ditched it later. -[[User:The Winchester|The Winchester]]
:::He's talking about an AK-47, but Type 47 definately isn't the right term. I always assumed he took it as a memento or something, because anyone can reload a weapon even if the magazine is removed. - [[User:Gunmaster45|Gunmaster45]]
::::Actually, he grabs the mag because he's carrying an M60, and he probably figured he may be able to use the ammo later. Also, many SF types are known to, in extreme need, use the local weapons, and he may also have been preparing for that eventuality. [[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::Taking AK rounds for an M60? the M60 fires 7.62x51 rounds, while the AK fires 7.62x39, plus you'd need to have the rounds already on a belt to be fired by an M60. [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::I think that what Yurek was trying to do was deny the enemy ammunition should they pick up the AK. The Bowden's book accounted that many Somalis that were killed would have others reuse the same weapon. They briefly showed that when Busch was making his last stand by the downed chopper. Also, he may have kept it as a souvenir. It's not everyday you'll find a loaded AK magazine that had the potential to kill you. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Actually, I was suggesting that he was picking up the mag out of fear that at some point, he would need to resort to using an Ak, or that he would have the ammo if someone else had already been forced to pick up a local weapon. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
----
Also, What the motherfuck is an M4A2?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:The motherfuck that is an M4A2 is basically an M4 produced by another company such as Bushmaster Firearms. It's just another "M4gery". Also, Google is everyone's friend and it wouldn't hurt to ask it. ;) --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::I'd like to think he kept it as a souvenir, although the actual reason was whenever a member of militia was killed they were extremely dedicated to retrieving the body and the firearm, so removing the magazine would have made it useless, although picking up the the weapon and smashing it to pieces would probably have worked better[[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 14:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Smashing the weapon would have been noisy and they were trying to be quiet at that point IIRC.
::::fair point but i was thinking more like removing the driver spring, and its probably just that it would have made one less magazine for the somalians to use
I think the reason is that the enemy has 30 rounds less against the rangers. It's like in 'Saving Privat Ryan': the rescue team left Steamboat Willy alive; so he could kill Captain Miller. A wise decision of Yurek, I think

I noticed another mistake. During the scene where Gordon and Shughart are holding off the Somalis at the crash sight there's a quick moment when Shughart is seen using an M16A2 rifle instead of his M14 rifle. And in the very next scene and all following he's back to using the M14. [[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]

::::: I believe it was because he was firing his M14 until it ran out of ammo, and then using a helo crew member's M16 before retreating to reload both rifles.:::

:::- Yes, that's the case. Gordon is also seen dropping his CAR-15 when it's empty and using his 1911. Later, when Shughart is killed, he fires the M14 'til it's empty, then switching to his 1911, and when that is empty, using an MP5 from the chopper. Hell, they're being overwhelmed, and it is quicker to pick up and and shoot another weapon that is ready than reload the present one. They were pretty much using whatever they could trying their damndest to fend an army off, I would think that was obvious. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mike Durant's Book ==
In Mike Durant's book "The Night Stalkers" he quoted a few weapons he was using in the real life in the "Mog". I remember him talking about his MP5 not to metion he called it a "german piece of crap" for jamming. He also said Randy's Commando was on burst-fire 3 shots 1 kill. And the mini guns the rescue team could have been using can not run on the Black Hawk's batteries only on pure engine generating turbine power.
:To be fair, Mike Durant also seems to know very little about firearms. Also note that his memory may be jarred by the fact that, you know, he had just suffered a fucking HELICOPTER CRASH. --[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
::Actually, helicopter pilots have to be trained with certain firearms in order to survive in the event of a crash. Durant at least knew how to clear the jam on the 9mm submachine gun. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::160th SOAR aircrews, being a part of ASOC are trained not only in their specific role in the aircraft, but also on how to continue with the mission at hand along with their "customers." Hence, they're well-familiarized with fighting with the weapons carried on board with them (in the case of what was aboard Super-64, MP5s for the pilots, M16s for the crewchiefs and M9s carried by all of them).
:::What baffles me is how his MP5 kept jamming (in the book atleast). I know they were in the desert, but that MP5 had been stashed inside a helicopter, so it wouldn't be all dusty and full of sand. Maybe it is a German piece of crap then [[User:M14fanboy|M14fanboy]] 15:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it was dusty inside of the chopper. Flying around in a helicopter with the rotor wash sending dust, smoke, and sand into and around the cabin won't help the MP5 from jamming, either. Pilots don't normally clean their emergency back-up weapons as they're supposed to. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 16:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Helicopter crews don't regularly use their weapons and so may not be as maintenance-minded as a Ranger or Delta. That could be one reason it kept jamming. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 15:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I did read Mike Durant's book and would like to point out he referred to Randy's weapon as a High-Tech rifle. as we all no, it was a vietnam era M14. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 21:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

:I just stared reading Durant's "In the Company of Heroes" before he called it a "German piece of crap", he said the MP5 had shot fine at the range but he probably had neglected to clean it. It was after Shughart gave him Gordon's CAR-15 which didn't jam and was far more effective despite only having half a mag left he thought of the MP5 as a piece of shit. He also had an M9 that he never drew, which he said probably saved his life since he wasn't seen as a threat. While Shughart's M14 isn't really a "High-Tech rifle" it was a lot better than a bolt-gun in the situation he was in. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 18:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

== The Hand ==
Does anyone know why that Ranger took the dead Delta Force member's hand?-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:Probably to send it home with the rest of the body-[[Special:Contributions/76.31.5.208|76.31.5.208]] 16:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC) (S&Wshooter)
::I figured that too. But it's kind of creepy going around carrying an dead man's severed hand in your pocket. What about the smell? However, if i died in combat, i would like if my body went home and i had an funeral.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 16:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:::In the book, Othic took the hand that he had found and put it in his pocket to return it to the Delta operator that was blown in half. He had placed it with his body after he died, but strangely the movie did not show that, and made it seem like Othic kept the hand. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 02:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::::It wasn't the Delta Operator's hand. The shots of MSGTTim "Griz" Martin after being hit by the RPG show his hand still intact. More likely it belonged to one of the other soldiers aboard the truck that got hit. MSGT Martin was shipped off to Germany IIRC where he succumbed to his wounds shortly after.
:I bet it started to smell after a while-[[User:S&Wshooter|S&Wshooter]] 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==Flashlight Attachment Help==
[[Image:BHD Commando Flashlight.jpg|thumb|none|600px|What is this type of flashlight attachment called?]]
''What is the technical term for the flashlight to be attached to the '''barrel''' of the AR-15 series? It seems to be used only when there are handguards in place of the RIS railing. Sergeants Hoot, Busch, Sanderson, Gordon, and a couple other Deltas used the same attachment.'' --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 01:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:Before R.I.S. was introduced, I used to see a whole bunch of different flashlight attachments just like that one in the Blue Press. Some of them were even advertised as able to work on multiple types of weapons in the same caliber (i.e. AR-15s and Mini-14s). There were many different brands, so we can't be 100% sure what this movie's armorers used. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]]

::Oh, thanks, but I didn't mean what brands the movie used. I meant, what the generic term for these types of attachments that connect the flashlight to the barrel are called. I'm thinking about purchasing one for an AR-15 platform without the RIS. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 03:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

:::It's a barrel mount for a flashlight, that specific one was made by Surefire.

:::: Like the above said, It's a barrel mounted flashlight, made by Surefire. I actually managed to buy one of them that had been used in the Operation Gothic Serpent theater. These are still a good alternative to adding the weight of a rail to your firearm. I believe the flashlight is a model 600 or something similar.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 05:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

==M4 in 1994?==
Question about the M4 not being period correct. If the events took place in September 1993 and the M4 went into service sometime in 1994, isn't possible that members of an elite group like Delta Force could have gotten their hands on a couple?

:I'd say it's plausible that Delta could have been field-testing a few XM4s that day. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

::In today's case, some special units are using the HK416 in the field. It likely that this was also the case with the M4 in 1993. That, or the armorers to the film got lazy and decided to throw in a few M4's for the M4 fans. Unlikely, but movies will do this. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:Well it isn't completely out there that at the time US special forces can get their hands on some experimental weapons and field test them. But I think for this movie, they just ran out of Car-15s to give to the Delta actors.[[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)he

The m4 was used in service since 1997 it is not possible for an m4 to be used.the delta operators may have used a xm117e2.

:Just because it didn't go into service until 94 or 97 doesn't mean D-boys didn't have a hold of them. There could well have been a prototype (or many test models) sent out with D-boys to see if the rifle performed to what was expected.
More than likely just an error. The simplest explanation is usually correct (Occam's Razor) BA
More likely than not the M4 in the film is simply an anachronism due to a shortage of Colt Commandos. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 02:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

'''Don't forget about the 10th Mountain and the U.N Soldiers. Whoever created this page missed them completly and they had alot of firearms. Whats omore is i can't for some reason edit the page. the autheor needs to fix this right away'''

::I have explained elsewhere that the Colt Model 727 carbine, which LOOKS just like an early M4 (but has a semi/full-auto trigger group, rather than semi/burst as on the Model 777, AKA the earliest M4) was introduced in the late-1980s. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 05:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

:::The 727 has a fixed carry handle, though. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

::::So did the Model 777, which is the first gun that was ever adopted by the U.S. military as the "M4". The 727 and 777 are the same gun aside from their trigger groups. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::I'm fairly certain this convo is referring to the later M4 with detachable carry handle. That's why I mentioned the 727 having an A2 upper. ;) [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 23:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

All gear that is used in the US Army has to be tested. Part of this testing cycle is to give it to SF, Rangers, Delta, etc. to field it before it is approved for widespread use. Considering the length of trials and the endless bureaucracy in the DoD, it is completely plausible that these guys had the first generation of the M4 in TFR/OGS. I saw a SCAR in the wild on my latest deployment to Afghanistan last year. These guys are like the pro athletes of the military world. All sorts of manufacturers will just give them gear to use in order to try to get them to reccomend it... Optics, armor, boots, gun accessories, etc...

== Shughart and the M14/M16 switch ==
Does anyone know if Shughart briefly using an M16A2 while defending Durant's crash site is intentional or a mistake? [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]]

:intentional, in the book moments beforehand hed asked durant where the spare weapons were kept aboard the black hawk, and for some reason this scene was omitted from the film. Shughart had ran dry with his 7.62 M14 and so couldnt have used the 5.56 from the M16 mags. :)

::Yeah, Shughart asked if there were any spare rifles or radios ''after'' Gordon got shot. This caused Durant to realize that Gordon may have been hit and that they were stranded on their own. However, the book didn't mention Shughart ''actually'' using the M16. --''[[User:Blemo|'''B''''''le''''''mo''']] [[Image:Progress Wheel.gif]] [[user talk:Blemo|'''TALK''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Blemo|'''CONTRIBUTIONS''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Blemo|'''EMAIL''']] • '''MESSAGE''''' 15:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, good point, but i dont get why brad hallings didnt join them? he could have done so much more on the ground than on the black hawk, especially since he had his leg blown off up there aswell. oh and btw, im a newcomer, how do i tag comments with my name at the end?
:By putting four ~ at the end of every message.-[[User:Oliveira|Oliveira]] 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thanks :) [[User:Owen642|Owen642]] 00:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe the reason why Halling didn’t insert with the Shughart and Gordon was because by the time the team was given the go-ahead to insert, Halling had taken control of the minigun due to a member of the helicopter crew being injured.--[[User:Mauser|Mauser]] 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

i dont know if he was actually using it, but in the movie version i think were supposed to think he took from a crew chief (since they carried an m16a2

the guy must have to taken the m16 from one of the blackhawk passengers and the blackhawks do carry spare weapons on board. (actual assassin)

Im sure most people so dedicated to this site probably noticed this but ill say it anyway. (**SPOILER**) ok right as MSsgt. Gordon is shot in the head and Shughart checks him it flashes over to Durant, and sure enough if you look you'll notice Gordon's CAR-15 on his lap. moments later Shughart runs over to Durant hands him the CAR-15 and says "Gordy's gone man, i'll be outside...Goodluck." just pointing it out. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

== Change made to 1911 article/picture ==

Not sure where IMDB gets its info from, but Kim Coates plays Master Sergeant Tim 'Griz' Martin, the unfortunate Delta operator who was blown in half by the RPG when the convoy is attempting to extract. He is not the Delta operator seen using the 1911 at the firing range and the picture and article have been edited for correction.

--[[User:NMOne|NMOne]] 19:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

All the Delta Force members' names were changed for the film except for Busch, Shughart and Gordon. "Wex" is the name credited to Kim Coates in the end credits. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Anybody else notice that when Wex is firing his 1911, he's walking down the range towards the targets while people behind him are still firing? seems kind of unsafe.--[[User:Pølaris|Pølaris]] 19:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

-- In a deleted scene, it is shown that Eversman calls cease fire on the range in response to him moving into the line of fire, and just responding to such percieved recklessness by simply muttering "Fuckin' Delta..."--[[Special:Contributions/24.253.69.199|24.253.69.199]] 22:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

on topic of 1911s does anyone know what kind of 1911s they really used? for example i find it hard to believe they would be using normal 1911s when the MK.IVs were out

-- They were regular M1911A1s as it is cheaper for the armorers to use GI style pistols instead of procuring brand new weapons or paying a pistolsmith for costly modifications on movie props that could later be used in other films. In reality, Delta operators would take their issued 1911s (which were often relics found in the supply system) and have them done by some of the best pistolsmiths they could find to do the work (or do the work in-house when at all possible). Some of that talent rubbed off on the operators themselves; Larry Vickers, a former Delta Operator himself, is one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the business and is one of the go-to guys for Delta's custom 1911s.

== Dillon/GE Miniguns ==

The Miniguns during the actual event would have been GE M134s. The Miniguns in the movie were Dillon Aero Miniguns, but not quite M134Ds. They had some of the DA upgrades on them though. That's from the commentary and some interviews online with Dillon Aero. I remember it being mentioned in one of the special features that the Dillon guns in the movie could have been fired off the Black Hawk's batteries, but the older GE ones in the real incident would have been unuseable at the crash site.

== 870 Remington Shotgun. ==

Not sure if this is worth noting, but in real life, the operator on who SGT. Sanderson was based, Paul Howe, had his shotgun rigged under his CAR-15 in a "Masterkey" configuration. Also, it can be seen being used in the directors cut to breach a door.

== Rescue Heli Star 41 ==

The AH-6, that inbounds to Wolcott's crash site (Star 41), has miniguns and rocket pods. The helicopter that is finally landing at the chrashed Black Hawk hasn't any weapons onboard, so probably a MH-6.
:Continuity error most likely. [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

== Flashlights ==
I watched the movie, and I was wondering, if Delta force had flashlights on their M733 and M727's, why didnt they use them? I could see that they would want to keep stealth in night, but if they're firing at the enemy, the muzzle flash would show their position anyway.

:Actors probably forgot or were never told [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]]

Flashlights are not going to give you enough illumination to shoot at targets across buildings. They're better for room clearing. Besides you wouldn't use them if you have NOD's. --[[User:Ben41|Ben41]] 02:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)v
:Not to mention a flashlight beam in that environment would scream, "here I am, shoot me!" [[User:Spartan198|Spartan198]] 05:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

does anyone no how they would have mounted the tac-lights back then? like now-a-days we have RIS/Picatanny rails. then they would mod it to the barrel. how would they do that if they have a shotgun under the barrel? Larry Vickers mentioned that he hose clamped his to the bottom of the barrel. but he didnt have a masterkey. any suggestions? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 15:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hose clamped it to the side or top of the barrel? -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Larry had his hose-clamped to the bottom. he used his in Panama (acid Gambit) i was surprised at how resoursefull they were. he also took some cardboard and put them inbetween Mags for a quick reload. and the aimpoint on his gun looked ancient. [[Special:Contributions/71.194.219.9|71.194.219.9]] 22:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

== Possible Error? ==
Anyone notice that the picture of Sanderson firing his M727 during the Mogadishu Mile? It looks like the chamber is clear and the bolt is open. That means the weapon is empty, but in the movie you still hear two more shots before he switches to his sidearm. Is it just the angle, or is it just an error in continuity?--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 23:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a continuity error, a continuity error would be when one seen a guy has a 1911 and the next he suddenly has a Beretta M9. I can't say for I don't remember this. --[[User:FIVETWOSEVEN|FIVETWOSEVEN]] 16:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

== Actor in the Specials ==

Do we see this actor in Delta costume in the movie often? Because all the behind the scenes shot is this guy and I don't recognize him. Is he an extra that is like way in the back of the other guys? [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 05:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

What guy?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 05:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This guy
[[Image:BHD2Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor aims Durant's MP5 in movie armory. Note the other weapons behind him.]]
[[Image:BHD1Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|An actor in Delta clothes shows M16A2 in the movie armory.]]
[[Image:DHD3Arm.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta actor shows vehicle-mounted M60s.]]

That's Jeremy Piven, nowadays best known for playing Ari Gold on HBO's Entourage. Wikipedia says he played CFO Clifton Wolcott.

:I do not think it Piven. In the film he plays a pilot role and his hair is black.
http://files.haiguinet.com/flashupload/UploadedFiles/1252005569_159Jeremy_Piven.jpg
http://emsworth.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/jeremy-piven-in-black-hawk-down-2.jpg
When I put the photos on the page, before to name him "delta actor", I looked for the name of this guy in the entire cast. Unsuccessfully. I think it is a stunt.--[[User:Charly Driver|Charly Driver]] 17:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

== Seriously ==
[[Image:BHD 015.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Delta Force SFC Sanderson ([[William Fichtner]]) fires his M1911A1 during the "Mogadishu Mile". It seems unlikely a well trained operator would wear his flight gloves like shown.]]
Seriously? A well trained operator wouldnt wear his gloves like that? This mall-ninja crap needs to stop. Theres no special way to wear flight gloves, you put the goddamn things on and wear 'em. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
:Actually, special forces operators of that era often wore flight gloves, just like that. Fun fact. Flight gloves are made for use by individuals who fly planes; they need a glove that will keep their hands a bit warmer than they normally will be, but will still allow them to feel the tactile sensation of the various knobs and switches and provide the nimbleness that the human hand gives us. The solution? Flight gloves. They are the precursors to the gloves we see in use by military units now; the Oakley tacticool gloves (fun fact: Oakley started out making motorcycle gloves) or the Blackhawk gloves and what have you. I'm really loving these mall-ninjas popping up thinking they know about shooting or special forces work. I can think of a few damn good reasons off the top of my hand to never, ever take gloves off in a combat situation, personally, and a well-fitted pair of gloves will be just like a second skin.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 01:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

:- I believe the comment means it isn't likely he'd wear them while shooting - Full-finger gloves can be obstructive/restrictive when it comes to finger movement, which isn't exactly a good thing when you need to make accurate shots. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 01:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

::Flight gloves, as I just fucking explained, are not restrictive or obstructive in the slightest.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

:::- ''Uh, I had replied below I didn't know about these gloves specifically, which you seem to have failed to notice. Just as you also seem to have failed to notice that all these comments you posted this slightly irritable and unnecessary response in-between were all posted '''days ago'''. It might help if you thoroughly read the comments and check the dates next time.'' [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 15:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Honestly how would anyone here really know....are any of you "operators"?? -and if you say yes I'm going to say that your lying.....I'm going to delete that quip about his gloves in the caption, it's not hard to shoot with gloves on, especially flyers gloves. --[[User:AdAstra2009|AdAstra2009]] 03:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
:Thank you, it just bugs the living shit outta me when armchair commandos think they know operator/tactical/omfgdelta stuff. -[[User:The_Winchester|Winn]]
::- Well, I'm indeed no 'operator', but I don't have to be one to know that it is hard to shoot with some gloves, especially if you're making distance shots. But I'm not familiar with flight gloves specifically, so I guess they're no trouble, I don't know. In any case, it just seemed to me the context of Winn's comment was that he was saying that it was stating merely that the gloves need to be worn some special way (and Winns right - they're gloves, what special way is there), but that's the problem with text sometimes. Anyway, not trying to make a valid claim, just an opinion. I can't speak for whoever made original remark, though. Either way, I never gave that comment much thought myself. I'm personally more peeved about quips on peoples (actors) stances myself. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 17:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Flight gloves are a very thin layer of Nomex with a Clarino palm and finger overlaid. These are very light, wick sweat, and give you tactile feeling and the ability to perform tasks as though you were bare handed. They are maybe a few mm thick on the palms, and do not affect in any way your shooting ability or accuracy, even whilst firing an M249, which is notorious for running away due to gloves getting stuck and holding the trigger back.

==Discussion about the bullets, or something==
- Something I always found a bit funny about that particular scene - Sanderson misses the two targets with his 727 carbine (firing several shots), yet hits them both with one .45 shot each (or actually, maybe one was hit twice, and the other once). Heh. But of course, I'd imagine some people can actually be better with a handgun than a rifle in some instances. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

I haven't seen the movie in a few months, but if I remember correctly he had actually hit the targets with his rifle, but the rounds went completely through and didn't kill the targets. So he used his .45 to actually kill them. There is a part in the book where it is mentioned that they had been issued "green tip" rounds (armor piercing/ anti personnel 5.56 ammo with a steel penetrator tip), and another part that talked about the rounds lack of effectiveness against the drugged up Somalis. One guy unloaded a belt from his SAW into a couple Somalis and they kept coming at them b/c the rounds just went right through and didn't do any major (fight stopping) damage. Another reason why they talk about how Randy Shughart was a smart SOB for using a 7.62 M14 and normal ammo. As for the gloves... Flight gloves have been used for years by ground personnel because they are thin enough to still be able to feel things with your hands, but they are still something to protect against scrapes, burns, dirt, etc.. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 22:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No argument here Ranger. but i would also like to point out in the book Mark also mentions that they(the rangers) fired SAW and believe it or not M-60 ammunition, that would happen to be the same M-60 that carries the heavy hitting 7.62mm however that guy was probably high as a kite anyways so idont think it would have made much of a difference. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 23:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

:- That's all fascinating, except in the movie, Sanderson (Fichtner) just ''missed them''. I was remarking on how the movie showed him ''missing'' two almost perfectly still targets with the 727 carbine and hitting them with the .45. That's all. Interesting tidbit about the ammo though. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]]

Well, the point about RS and his M14 was what the book said. It was not so much the size of the bullet, but whether or not it was AP ammo (super hard bullet at very high velocity). An AP round from a 5.56 to the heart will create a very small hole, and if the person who is shot is high on drugs then they are probably not even going to notice it until they finally keel over (which will probably take a while). At the same time a FMJ from a .45 while it still probably wont blow the heart to kingdom come, will make a large enough hole that it will cause bleed out to happen faster (hopefully fast enough). Then again at close range any 5.56 and even 7.62 ammo isnt going to be as effective as a .45 round b/c of the rifle round's high velocities compared to the .45s low velocity. When faced with an unarmored threat below about 50 yards, a pistol round (be it .45, 9mm, .40, etc) is going to be much more effective (unless it is something like the 5.7 round, which has no immediate stopping power unless a CNS or head shot is attained). Long post short: will a 5.56 or 7.62 to the heart kill someone at close range? Most likely yes. Will it do it quick enough to stop an attacker from killing/ wounding you or your allies? Maybe. If he missed them, then it was probably just to add suspense or a "weapon switch to show he is an elite operator" shot to the scene.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 00:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

um this is extremely off topic like usual but id just like for someone to explain the purpose of using a 5.56 by a Counter-Terrorist Unit. tell me if im missing something but when their clearing rooms A.) the round wont immediatly kill a combatant when you wont him to die. and 2. say its an assault on multiple rooms at once and boom you miss your target (or it just passes through him) and boom goes through the wall like the round is meant to and bam! clips a friendly or even worse a hostage. explain the logic to me please. [[User:Dirtdiver 6421|Dirtdiver 6421]] 00:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, logistics. If they are expecting to be 100% in a building they will use SMGs, Shotguns, etc. But if they have an expectation that being in a building is only going to be 10-25% of the mission they will usually carry rifles. The main problem with the mission portrayed in BHD is that the brass expected to have to combat (lightly) armored vehicles, so they issued AP rounds. Now days the AP rounds are for some odd reason pretty much 90% of what the US Army issues. Army Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta, etc. use a type of semi-expanding bullet, as does the Marine Corps.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 01:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There are other reasons as well. It's a fairly accurate rifle round, which, when in situations that will require shooting further than 50-100 meters, is necessary to have. It's a relatively light round, and most people can easily carry a few mags of 5.56 without feeling it too much. As far as stopping power goes, in barrels that don't over-stabilize the round, the 5.56 will fragment (not the AP round, obviously), slowing itself in the body and thus penetration becomes less of an issue. When you consider that most SF types use expanding bullets, this nearly negates the issue. There's a reason that most countries use the 5.56 round or something similar.
As far as the issuance of AP rounds in a war that clearly didn't need them, I've heard two sides of the argument. I've heard that, as Ranger01 said, they were issued because they thought they may run into light vehicles (although they brought along plenty of LAWs to deal with that). But what I heard from an individual who was there was that the men believed it was because Clinton believed that rounds that expanded would A) not make good headlines and B) violate some convention (I believe the Geneva convention).--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Geneva convention forbids hollow point ammo in the military. The Police of the nation is a different subject. [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 02:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:You're thinking of the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention.--[[User:PistolJunkie|PistolJunkie]] 03:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was the GC or HC and didn't really care to look it up at the moment.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Hague banned all use of ammunition that easily expands or flattens in a human target. I have no exact idea of what round is being used or how it gets around the HC, I only know that when asked about the effectiveness of 5.56 ammunition, a few SF guys made mention that have been issued a new "expanding" round. I have also heard that Marines are now being issued an expanding type round. It may be that since we are not actually fighting an official "military force" that the HC and GC do not apply. Also you must remember that the use of .50 cal against personnel is banned too, how often do you think that is observed?-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 11:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not saying we follow either conventions to a T in every war, I'm just echoing what I heard from a man who was there. A lot of people who lived through the battle of mogadishu came away with the feeling that Bill Clinton cared more about how headlines would look than he did about the safety of our soldiers. As for HC and GC not applying, I agree that they really don't apply to A) organizations that are not militaries but instead ragtag terrorist groups and B) hail from nations that didn't exist at the time of the convention and never signed a similar document. It's the same argument that was applied for the waterboarding of captured terrorists; apparently, they apply some standards to those who didn't sign, but not others. Personally, I think that terrorist groups and undeveloped countries where they never signed the conventions shouldn't get the protection of them, and we really need to invest into expanding ammunitions for everyone; AP doesn't make sense for unarmored targets.--[[User:Asmkillr323|Asmkillr323]] 12:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The question about observing the laws was rhetorical in nature. But I agree wholeheartedly about what you say pertaining to the HC and GC applying to people who did not sign it. Its like bringing pirates and terrorists into the US to give them civilian trials. People say they should get military trials... When according to the GC (that people are so happy to apply to the situation) pirates and terrorists are not able to receive either. We selectively apply laws to make us look good internationally, when in reality it costs money, and even worse lives of US citizens and military forces.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 12:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances full metal jacket .556 is an ideal round. When fighting a traditional battle, against an enemy that follows the rules of war, it is far better to wound the enemy than kill him. Gunner313

We haven't fought a conventional war that lasted any period of time since Korea (and you could even say WWII, since Korea was less than conventional). Also with the way the enemy works now, any intel we can gather from enemy combatants will likely be useless (if it ever was useful) by the time it gets to the guys on the ground. Also as stated by me, and others before, under 50 yards and especially against an enemy that is drugged up a FMJ is likely not going to down an enemy either by wounding him or killing him. Of course shot placement comes into play heavily, but as cases have proven a COM shot is likely not to drop a determined attacker immediately. Head and extremity shots are also very hard to make, with FMJ pretty much the only way to immediately and most important reliably drop an attacker at close range is a pelvic shot. But now days in Afghanistan most fighting is taking place on the far end if not beyond the 5.56's effective range. Also Gunner313 it is 5.56, not .556, .556mm is a really damn small projectile haha. -[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 14:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

One could say that the First Gulf War was conventional. we were fighting an organized military(Iraq), i still think they were a bunch of crazy towel heads hellbent on destroying the western world.[[User:SargeOverkill]]

Why is it better to wound them? -SasquatchJim.

Because then you can detain them get information from them.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 19:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. I apologize; I thought he meant that wounding them was more humane, or something. Although, dead people can't keep shooting at you; wounded ones can. -SasquatchJim

It is better to wound them because it requires the enemy to care for their wounded, they have to be treated, they have to be transported, it is demoralizing to the others to hear someone in terrible pain, so for a short time a wounding shot, takes two people out of the fight. Also the more medical supplies that have to be shipped to the front for the wounded, means less of other items such as ammo, food, fuel, misc... Gunner313

Makes sense to me. Thanks. -SJ

Well in my opinion, I still think it's better to kill the enemy rather than just wound them, that way they don't get patched up and come back later to kill you.

agreed. especially in Somalia when if their not dead their gunna come back and shoot you in the back. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

:- Bah, can't believe my one off-hand comment spawned all this. Heh. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 22:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to add other than that this was really informative. This site is one of the best blind discoveries I've made on the internet. --[[User:John Ryder|John Ryder]] 01:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Never Forget==
Sorry to post as anon, but I dont have an account but frequent the site. Just wanted to point out that today is the 17th anniversary of the US intervention in Somalia.

:- Actually the anniversary is for the mission and subsequent battle portrayed in the film. The 'intervention' began as Operation Provide Relief, which started in December 1992. Still, good to point it out. EDIT - I actually just realized that not only is it the anniversary, but the actual day is correct (That is, Oct. 3 was a Sunday, same day as the Oct. 3 in the battle). Again, pretty cool I guess. [[User:StanTheMan|StanTheMan]] 03:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The entire day yesterday i thought about it. i decided to watch the movie being Sunday Oct-3. i also found it fit to say a pray for the brave soldiers who lost their lives fighting to help the ungratefull bastards. [[Special:Contributions/24.15.103.231|24.15.103.231]] 22:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

==Interesting Uniform Note==

Just wanted to point out an interesting observation about the uniforms worn by the Rangers; this is one of the few films to accurately depict the transition from the 6-color "chocolate chip" camouflage made famous during Desert Storm to the 3-color "coffee stain" pattern that was used throughout the rest of the 1990's and during the invasion and early occupation of Iraq in the early 2000's. During the transition between these two camouflage patterns, it was common to see a combination of the two patterns on the same soldier; they would wear the new DCU's with the old 6-color on their PASGT helmets. Practically all the Rangers in the film have this combination.

[[Image:BHDMinimi-4.jpg|thumb|none|600px|[[Tom Hardy]] wielding an FN Minimi as Spc. Twombly, giving us a good look at his 3-color DCU uniform and 6-color helmet cover]]

[[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 07:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mo'alim (Razaaq Adoti) gun ==

What gun have Mo'alim in his shoulder? He don't remove it from the shoulder at any time, but there are two scenes where you can see:

1 When prevents the killing of Duran:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/

2 When the cannon is firing in the area of the first downed helicopter:
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/

are you referring to the AK-74u? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he is referring to the pistol in his shoulder holster under his left arm. Can't make it out though, will have to have a look on my Bluray version when I get a minute, but don't think it can be seen well enough to make it out. --[[User:Commando552|Commando552]] 10:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

i wasn't aware he had a shoulder holster? can you upload a photo?[[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it is a revolver or a pistol:
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun1.png/
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/moalimhandgun2.png/
i couldnt see anything on the 2nd picture but the first was definetly a revolver. my guess, and im not expert with revolvers would be a .38 or 357 perhaps a S&W? [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== Doc Schmid ==
In the movie PFC Kurt "Doc" Schmid is shown as a Ranger medic but in reality he was Delta Force. It's curious why they chose to depict him as a Ranger and not a Delta operator in the movie.

Maybe they forgot [[User:Excalibur01|Excalibur01]] 20:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

:This is somewhat unrelated, but I found it really funny that Schmid is played by the same actor who later played [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/ Adam]. -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==tapeing==
i was just watching this , and i noticed that a majority of the rangers taped the ends of the butt stocks on their rifles . Why is that?-[[User:Simmons 8492|Simmons 8492]]
:I believe that tape was used (not quite sure how) to attach the sling to the butt of the rifle. Tape is also used at the front of the rifle, to attach a loop of para cord around the front sight to the sling. The reason this was done was so that the sling would be attached on the top/side of the weapon, rather than the bottom (where the only fitted sling loops are) to make it more usable in combat. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

i noticed nearly all the mag's have brown tape on them, any reasons for this, or is it just purely cosmetic? [[User:Scarecrow|scarecrow]] 11:32, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

== Nelson's M60 ==

Is is correct to have Nelson carrying the Vietnam Era M60 over the M60E3 or E4? I'm not sure when the E3 or E4 came out.--[[User:MarineCorps1|MarineCorps1]] 03:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:The M60 used in the film is an original spec M60, the same as were actually used by the Rangers in Somalia (As identified by the hand guard and bi-pod attaching at the end of the barrel). Not sure exactly when the E3 was made (started being issues in 1986), but I know there was one in the 1985 film [[Commando]]. Regardless, I don't think it was that widely used, as the lighter weight barrel and other parts made the gun more prone to overheating and malfunction. The rangers actually used a mix of M60s and FN MAGs as shown below:
:[[Image:101120ritchie20pursley8yp.jpg|thumb|500px|none]]
:Also, there has been talk on this page about what the actual weapons used by Delta where, and I cannot speak to this operation in particular, but in most of the photos I have seen of Delta force in Somalia, there are actually armed with M16A2s, normally with a telescopic sight mounted onto the carry handle (example below). --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 12:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/9607/21820burns20weaver6az.jpg
::Delta operators in Somalia used Colt Model 723 carbines with M4 style barrel, at least watching the few pictures of that time. --[[User:Pz.Abt.100|X-Ray Bravo 6]] 13:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
:::Did the Rangers at the time use a black ballistic vest in addition to the woodland RBAs? While searching for M60 photos saw several photos of people in black vests carrying M16A2s with an optic on the handle, also sometimes carrying shotguns and LAWs. Are these likely Rangers rather than Delta then? Also, there are pictures of rangers using colt carbines with the step down M4 type barrels, so I think there was a much wider variety of weapons used than the film shows. --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 14:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
::::The Rangers only wore Woodland camo RBA (Ranger Body Armor) vests and desert-camo PASGT helmets during the operation (see the "Interesting Uniform Note" section above for info about the desert camo patterns used in the film). Black vests were Delta-issue only. Sort of like present-day spec. ops units using Dragon Skin vests while the main Army uses Interceptor/IOTV vests (though it's not as easy to tell the difference between the modern-day examples by looking at them. [[User:Orca1 9904|Orca1 9904]] 17:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

In the book there was specific mention of a couple of the Rangers being stuck with the Delta "Turtle" Armor because they didn't have enough of the Ranger vests for a while.-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 09:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
:Thanks, that explains photos like the following one then (also, note the Colt carbines with M4 type barrels the Rangers are carrying.)
:[[Image:RangersM4.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]

:Also, can anyone shed some light as to what is going on with this SAW:
:[[Image:Saw.jpg|thumb|500px|none|]]
:First off, isn't this an E2, rather than the E1 as the main article says was used by the Rangers? Also, why does it look like the receiver is made of different metal, and is the sight mount a standard fitting, or something cobbled together? --[[User:Commando552|commando552]] 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Another thing the book mentions is that Delta's Armorer played gunsmith for some of the Ranger guys (at least 1 customized SAW is mentioned).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 20:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

that part of the book is referring to Spc. Waddell's SAW and i believe is was a grip that was put on. i would also like to shed some light on the fact that in 1993 only the Armys Special Ops like Delta Force had that kind of ability on their weapons, and now every soldier on the battlefield has the ability to put on optics, lights, lasers, and stocks. [[User:Dirtdiver6421|Dirtdiver6421]] 23:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes that is the part I was referring to, although I remember there being more than just a grip added, but its been a while. Also Rangers aren't basic infantry, they too are a part of USASOC. and in a combat zone leeway with weapons (also uniforms, gear, etc) is pretty much at the command's discretion. I believe that they would allow Rangers a bit of leeway with modifying their weapons in certain ways to enhance their effectiveness in a given environment. Spc. Waddell's SAW grip would have been noticed by his command at some point, and either him or the Delta armorer would have had to get permission to modify it, being that it is US Gov property (not to mention the other customized weapons we see in Ranger's hands in photos).-[[User:Ranger01|Ranger01]] 04:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)